Episode 14 - Eternity

In this episode, Pastor Shaun is joined by Matt Floyd to unpack how eternity is meant to lead us to hope, not just curiosity.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Welcome to the journey. My name is Sean Olson, and as you walk your faith life out, we just simply want to have conversations. After over two decades of ministry, I believe faith and discipleship is best served in a relational context. So we're going to invite some of my closest friends and family into this office and have conversations about faith and life in the context of relationship. So do me a favor, like, share, and subscribe because your friends and family need to take this journey with you. So let's dive in to a conversation right now. Hey, welcome back to the journey. We're super glad that you're joining us today, wherever it is that you're joining us from, however you're consuming this, we're grateful to be a part of your journey. If I've never gotten the opportunity to meet you your first time on, my name is Sean Olsen, and I love to host conversations about faith. I've been in full-time ministry for over two decades, and I believe that faith is best walked out in the context of relationships. And we invite you into a conversation today. Specifically, we'll talk about eternity in just a moment, but I want to introduce you to a regular here at The Journey, Matt Floyd, the associate pastor of Venture Church, and just all things great when it comes to wisdom about scripture. Uh tell them who you are and what's going on in your life.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Yeah, man. Uh, well, first of all, it is April in the Love Country, and it is gorgeous outside. It's hard not to love that so much. Uh now I've gotten to serve with Pastor Sean for the last almost eight years at this point, which is kind of crazy to think about. Uh could be eight years later on this fall. And uh just love getting to serve and lead alongside you, learn from you. You know, I'm a big believer that in faith it's so important that we both have people we're learning from and people that we're pouring into that we've learned from as well. And I love getting to do both of those, both around our staff table at church and uh with our church family that we have here at Venture Church at the same time. But just you make ministry fun. Uh I don't know how many people tell you that, but that's one of my favorite things about you, honestly. Just make serving so much fun.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Uh, we love what we get to do. Uh, tell them the biggest thing that's going on in your world right now as we film this.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Yeah. Um, biggest thing is my wife and I are pregnant with that first one right now. Uh, prayerfully, God's hand is all over that pregnancy. We should have our first later on this fall. So uh trying to pray and sleep a lot right now.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Yes, bring of the rest, because it will not last forever. Uh, unlike uh eternity, which is what we're gonna talk about today. And I actually asked that leading question on purpose because you're preparing to be a parent. Um, you're gonna bring a beautiful little Lashana into the world soon. Uh, and I I can't wait. I feel like he thinks that's a joke. Uh I can't wait to watch you and Casey parent. Uh, but eternity, in our view of eternity, creeps into every aspect of our life. Like even as you begin to parent your daughter, not Lashawna, that was a joke for you listeners.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Name her after you is what you're getting at. Yeah, that's what I was saying.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

Yeah. Uh, but you will begin your process of parenting. And if you don't include eternity in how you even parent, you've already missed something. And my global thought that I want to get to all of you as you're walking out this faith journey is it's easy to try to live for God and forget that God is eternal. Wow. And you go through a daily rhythm and you think, man, I'm just trying to make it through Monday. I'm just trying to think, make it through Tuesday. And the enemy of our soul's goal is to keep our eyes on the temporary and forget that there is eternity at large and it affects every aspect of your life. If you aren't affected by eternity today, you're missing the point. Ecclesiastes 3.11 says, Yet God has made everything beautiful for its own time. And I love this line. He has planted eternity in the human heart. So every person you encounter all over the world has this longing for humanity, uh for eternity. But so people cannot see the whole scope of God's work from beginning to end. This is how you know God's planted eternity in the human heart. Every society for all of time has chased some sort of deity.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

He's planted in our heart, but we then try to take that and fully wrap our minds around it as if we can comprehend it, as if we can grasp it. And I think that's the tension is we try to make it our understanding, not what he's planted in our heart. Uh, so everything in our lives is affected by our scope and our view of eternity. And as you begin to forge your faith, your viewpoint of eternity affects everything you do.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Wow. Man, this is such an important topic, and it's a really big one. Like we can just say that right out of the gate. We could probably spend two hours sitting here this afternoon talking about eternity. Surely we could. We don't plan to. Uh you can obviously see how long the video is right now if you wanted to. Um, but it's such a big idea that impacts everything. And when I think about eternity, I think the reality is everybody believes something about the afterlife. Oh, that's so good. Right. Throughout history. Everybody, even if you believe that there's nothingness on the other side of this life, that's still something. That there is something that happens on the other side of this life. And I think there's so much power when we really seek to, can we be honest, get uncomfortable with this conversation and be willing to submit ourselves to the truth that God were God's word says eternity is rather than what we think it should or should not be, can change so much about how we live our life, like you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

Yeah, like Job 36 talks about how great God is, right? God is great. We know not everything about him. But here's what I think what we try to do. We try to take the seed that's planted in our heart and we try to diminish it so our mind can understand it. It's not that we know about eternity, it's that we sense it. It's like uh if you can visualize, it's like I love water, right? Uh I love being on the water. It's like if you were to stand at the edge of the ocean. For instance, for a couple years I drove uh our boat over to the Bahamas, and I I will always remember the feeling the first time that you drive your boat out this inlet and you're looking at the vastness of the ocean. Wow. And I think the concept of talking about eternity is just like that. You're standing and looking at something that is so vast that you can see how big it is, but you rarely understand how deep it is. And as we drive across the water, all of a sudden you're looking at your depth gauge going, it's like 1,500, 1800 feet deep. That's the conversation on eternity. It is both vast and it is both deep. And what I think we try to do is we try to reduce eternity for us to manage and control it. Wow. So that we can understand it. And we say, Well, he's planted in our heart. Let me tell you, he has planted it in your heart. It was never meant to fit in your mind. And I think that's probably what creates tension in us.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

Is like, I have a longing for eternity. And normally when we have a longing for something, we try to understand it. We try to wrap our minds around it, is the is the statement, the figure of speech we would use. And when we do that with eternity, it's like standing at the ocean going, How do I put how do I put containers on this? And that's the whole point about eternity. You can't.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

You can't put a handle on it.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

Yeah. Well, it reminds me of the scripture that his ways are higher than our ways, his thoughts are higher than ours. And I think there is a tension we feel as humans between the peace of that, knowing I don't have to understand everything. Like I I finally got to an age it's like I'm okay not having all the answers to everything because I found peace in that. But I think every person's also had the opposite true. Like you're talking about the vastness of the ocean. And what struck my mind is how that can almost create fear sometimes, too. Sure. Because we're looking at something that we can't understand. And fear is nothing if not the awareness or the walking into of the unknown. That I'm walking into something that I can't get my hands around, I can't fully comprehend it. So of course, we have a lot of questions about eternity. We have a lot of worries or concerns. And I just love that this is a space that we get to kind of dive into that for the next little bit and talk about what that really looks like.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

Well, I think one of the things you said is why this conversation is fundamentally appropriate for those walking out of faith journey. Our version of acceptance is through understanding. If I cannot fully understand it, I will not fully accept it. Faith flips that on the end. Like you just quoted Isaiah, his ways are higher than our ways, right? Well, the beginning place of faith is trust without fully understanding. If you understand it, it's not faith. It's not. If you can fully explain it and fully understand it, it's not faith. And let me tell you, if you try to wrap your mind fully around eternity, you'll drive yourself crazy because you won't fully accept it, right? You don't fully understand it. And I think there's a fear here that acceptance is tied to understanding. And that's the world's way. Obviously, it's not God's way. So he puts this idea of eternity in our heart. Yeah. And then we're like, well, I don't fully understand it. So I'm going to avoid the conversation, which is why most of us, like you said, it's this big, dark, scary conversation. I'm going to push it away because we don't understand it. And if we don't lean into the things we don't understand, here's where I would say we lean into trust when we don't understand. That's the powerful part of leaning into an eternity conversation, is it drives me more back to my father. It drives me more back to my dependency on the Lord. It drives me more back to my connection with Him because I have to trust where I lack understanding. I have peace without understanding because I have a promise that is beyond my understanding.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

So I mean, those are some of my thoughts. Uh I trust in the Lord with all your, what's it say? Heart. Lean not on your understanding. See, we use these scriptures in a Sunday morning context in like a worship environment, and we use it as it pertains to a work situation. Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean not on your understanding. Sounds so good. Yay. You know, but what about an eternal conversation? Right. Like I don't really understand this. So you know I'm doing much trust in the Lord with all of my heart. And here's why I think this is this is really important. And I think there's a spiritual attack on the idea of eternity. Rejecting something that you don't understand and rejecting something that's not true or not the same.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

Right? So the enemy wants to come in and create falsehood where God has created truth, right? We know the word of God is true. We know that Jesus is truth, right? So we feel rejection is all the same. And there's two different forms of rejection that happen in our life. I don't understand it, so I reject it. And I don't understand it because it's not, or I reject it because it's not true. And the enemy wants to talk about eternity in this second half. Well, it's not true. So because I'm rejecting it, therefore it's not true. Let me tell you, we can accept things that we don't understand and reject things that aren't true simultaneously. And if we get into this eternity conversation and go, well, because I don't understand it, I'm going to hold it at bay. We're violating biblically based theology. You don't just reject something because you don't understand it, you reject it because it's not true.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Sure. Well, going back to the verse you just quoted, Proverbs chapter three, five, and six, there, trust in the Lord with all of your heart. Uh, and if I could be so blunt, I think there's a lot of Christians that are good at trusting God with some of our hearts.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

And I think what you're hitting on here is so relevant, it's so true. And it's really easy for us actually to trust God with the portion of life or the portion of faith or the portion of eternity that I actually can wrap my mind around. But what this verse is that the challenge is is to trust God with everything. The stuff that I can't understand and the things that I cannot, the things that make sense to me and the things that don't, the things my mind can wrestle with and the things that it cannot. And genuinely trusting God with everything else that that entails.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

And I think this is why having eternity-based conversations and thoughts, you know, I am probably a notoriously very big thinker, right? Uh, but having deep, big eternity-based thoughts is so good for us because it always reminds us it's bigger than we are. Right. It's bigger than the now. So two things happen simultaneously. You know, if you were to, and I did this in a message a bunch of months ago, I drew the timeline on on the on the whiteboard. And I was like, in the realm of eternity, we're in this little dot. When I reflect on eternity, it reminds me that God has been faithful before. He'll be faithful after. It's not just about timeline, it's about presence. That's really the promise of eternity. It's not just about life without time, it's life with presence. And I think it stirs in us a deeper level of trust for what's happening right now because I see that he's been faithful before and he'll be faithful after. The danger as we avoid eternal conversations is we try to live our life based upon explanation. And we reduce faith and God to what we can explain. And if we can only explain and we can only believe, and we only have faith for what our explanations can contain, we have secretly become our own God again. And this is why I believe eternity-based theology and eternity-based conversations are missing in most Christians' life. Because what we want God to do is serve the here and now, which really means my priorities, my preferences, my timeline, my life is the God. Yeah. No, when I think about eternity, it actually forces me to submit more to God. As you grow in this faith journey, what you believe about eternity impacts every day of your life. If you're not thinking about eternity today, you're not thinking about the barista's eternity tomorrow. And let me tell you, the more I think about eternity, the more I hear lostness in the world, the more I hear hopelessness in the world, because it forces me to realize the eternal story of God is bigger than Sean's story. Yeah. It forces selflessness. Uh, where of course the world forces selfishness, which is what we are talked about on Sunday and things like that, the whole selfless selfishness. Eternity is meant, though. This is why I think um we avoid it. Uh I grew up in church that it was literally scare the hell out of you. You know, I mean, it was. It was like Turner Byrne. Yep. You know, I was talking to uh some of the guys in the office the other day, and there was a mantra in ministry when I was growing up into ministry in my early 20s, late teen years. It was like hell's a hot place forever's a long time and no one has to go there. And I was like, that sounds so encouraging. It sounds so life-giving. Uh, you know, I literally grew up in a church they did. And if you've been a part of this, God bless your soul. If you're a part of this in your church this weekend, God bless your soul. Maybe go visit somewhere. Uh, but it's called Heaven's Gates Hells Flames. Maybe I should have said that. Uh it's called Heaven's Gates, Hells Flames. And literally we had we had hell. I mean, we had Satan crawl out of the stage and pull people back into hell. And it's like, eternity should be hopeful. Like as we talk about eternity, we have made it a horror movie, a thriller. It's not, it's it's a hopeful movie. Right. It's a hopeful narrative. Eternity should be driving us towards great hope because if we only paint the bad side of eternity, we've missed the entire gospel. Sure. It's a love story, it's a love song. It's not, it's not this hate and horror, you know. And I think we miss that.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Well, I I I'm reminded I'm gonna steal your story, and maybe you can tell it now if you want to. Uh, you you make the joke uh as a kid growing up, your dad was a pastor and he'd be preaching, saying, Man, heaven's gonna be just like church. And your response was basically God no. Please know. And one of the things that really started to change my perspective on eternity was something you alluded to just a second ago. That eternity is way more about relationship, encounter with God, presence with him that doesn't end. Right? When Jesus conquered death, this is what we're talking about. Like we all unfortunately still will die one day. That's the one certainty we have. But the reality is that I don't have to die every day after that. I don't have to die for the rest of time. I get to live life in the fullest way I can, which is in connection to in worship with the Lord and Savior who created me, loves me, knows me, called me by name. And I love the Bible says that God wants everyone he created to be saved. It doesn't mean that everyone will, but he wants that. He wants to spend eternity with me, he wants to spend eternity with you, wherever you're watching or listening from. And I think that's where we need to narrow our focus into when we talk about heaven and eternity and the reality of what that changes for me.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Sure. And I think, you know, if if sin created eternal separation from God, then the cross and redemption creates eternal connection to God. You go back to Titus, it says, you know, so that having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs, having the hope of eternal life, right? So as we think about eternity, it should kindle hopefulness in us. God didn't put eternity in your heart to frustrate you, right? Go back to Ecclesiastes that he planted eternity in your heart. He didn't put eternity in our heart to frustrate us or to give us fear, he put eternity in our heart to draw us.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Like think about all of the cultures, whether it be in the you know, out parts of Africa or whatever, where they go and they are chasing some sort of deity. The idea of eternity draws us towards God, not away from God. Right. And I think that's where the church, big sea church, not inherently a church, but the big sea church, for a generation of time, we missed it because we used eternity as a scare tactic. And now we almost have salvation cheapened to God's gonna save me from my temporary pain, from my frustration, from my sorrow, from my trauma, from all the things that happened to me. And God is certainly concerned about your current issues, but the bigger issue at hand is He wants to spend every moment of eternity with you. Sure. That's the hope that we receive when we think about eternity. And I look at people that have deep, meaningful sorrows in life, and this is how you know we don't have an eternity theology. We pray against the sorrows of life and not towards the eternal hope that we have. Yeah. Right. So most of our prayer life, we're trying to find peace by removing this sorrow.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

When really, if you've fixed your attention on, like Titus says, the eternal hope that we have. Right? It's it's it's the best way to explain it is uh someone got into your bank account and they sold $10. You don't even notice it when you're sitting on $10 million. We have an eternal hope in connection with the Father who is good and who is loving and who is gracious and mercy and compassionate, but we fix our temporary minds on these things that are happening temporary for us, and we lose sight that there is eternity coming.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

And it is good and it is hopeful. And I will tell you, if someone sent this to you and it's your first time listening, and you don't have an eternal connection with your father, he wants it right now. Uh, he is drawing you to it. He's using the idea of eternity to draw you towards him. It's not to push you away from him.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

That's the whole narrative of the Bible. Uh, in fact, the next episode, uh, if you go ahead and subscribe to this, the next episode is going to be why that fuels my desire to share my testimony and share the gospel. Because that's the whole concept. If I don't view eternity, I won't even have the passion to talk about Jesus. Why would I? Why would I share my testimony? Why would I share the gospel? Because it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean anything. Eternity makes it all meaningful. Right. Eternity is something that we can't fully understand, but we have to fully accept. Right? And if we can't fully understand something, I'm reminded of, you know, when you're a kid and you're starting to wrap your mind around concepts, and what you do when you don't understand something is you go to a source. Right. Right? If it's at school, you go to your teacher. If it's at home, you go to your parents. You go to something that you trust. And here's what I would say about eternity we've lost sight that we already have the source. You know, we've lost sight that we have the source. His name is Jesus. We have what he had to say recorded in the Word of God, and he had a lot to say about eternity. Right. And uh I think as we navigate a conversation on eternity, it's important that we look. He he speaks clearly. It's not like Jesus left the door open for some random, vague thoughts about eternity. I mean, Matthew 25 and 46 says, then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. Like that same word eternalism, both. There's no like, well, maybe this will happen, maybe that'll happen. And I think that's what's so powerful about having a conversation on eternity. If we walked out of this office and we went into Target and we asked people what their thoughts are on eternity, we'd get all kinds of things. Right. You could probably sit around your dinner table and ask about eternity. And even people that have faith will give you all kinds of ideas that have been constructed from the world's viewpoint of faith. Well, who's the author of the world? The enemy is. He's the liar. And he's creating theology that we live by that is creeping into our faith walk. That's why I'm so passionate about having this conversation. Because if we don't have an accurate representation based on truth, the word of God from the mouth of God about eternity, we start living our life like this.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

And we're like, how'd I get so far off course? You lost sight of eternity.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Absolutely. I think there's so many people who love the concept of Jesus and actually lose sight of what the person Jesus actually said.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

Oh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

I mean, you think about every different other religion or faith system in the world, including most atheists, nobody's denying that Jesus lived. Nobody's even denying necessarily that he was a good person or maybe a good teacher. The Muslims believe that, um, the Hindus believe that. An atheist more than likely believes that because he was a historical figure. What do all those people have in common? They've denied who he was and what he said. Or they've just tried to ignore it a bit. But if you in any way want to claim that I love Jesus, I follow Jesus, I'm in alignment with him, you've got to listen to what he said. Uh, you've got, I think, some great thoughts here this afternoon to lay that out.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

Yeah. And again, if you're gonna do that, you can this is a good truth for us all as we live forward in our faith anyway, you can't take the character of Christ and leave the content. And a lot of us are trying to live our lives based upon a perceived character of Christ while we want to dismiss the content that he actually said. It's when we put the two together that it forges my faith.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

And I will tell you right now, there is a fight for this is what is like Christ. I love that it is like Christ, but if it defines Christ or divies Christ, it's not good.

SPEAKER_04 24:45

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

It is both the character and the content. In other words, you know, we did an episode a few back uh on knowing the voice of God. The character of Christ cannot violate the content of Christ. So I can't say, well, he's loving so. Well, he is loving, so he said this. He is loving, so he did warn us that there will be eternal punishment and eternal life. And then we miscontrue the idea of eternity because if you ask most people what eternity looks like, it is a timeline that never ends.

unknown 25:15

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

And that's kind of what I want to lean into. John 17, verse 3. This is Jesus talking about eternity. This is eternal that they may know you. He didn't even talk about time. Eternity is a forged relationship for all of time. Right. And when we lose sight that the starting places of eternity is our placement with God, not the time that we are living or not living, we've lost the purpose of eternity.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

That's so good. Like if I could, real quick, I just had a I think a thought that might be helpful for somebody. Sometimes we hear what Jesus presented in that verse you shared in Matthew a second ago, that the reality is there's two outcomes for eternity, right? And our human heart's disposition is to ask the question, like most kids will. I'm learning that even though I'm not a dad yet. Why?

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Why is that the case? Why is it that some people will go to hell? And why is it that some people will go to heaven? And when we allow that to be the focus of our heart, where you started this whole episode at, is we focus on our understanding rather than understand or leaning into who God is. Jesus presented the problem, he also provided the answer. And it's him. He says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Like there's so many things about eternity that Jesus brought up the truth of and provided the answer to simultaneously.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

Yep. And I think, you know, going back to the why, you know, we almost blame God for the punishment. Like, why does there have to be eternal punishment? Understand that wasn't his original design. Again, I'm going to encourage you, watch the next episode, subscribe to this so you get a notification, because I'm actually going to break that down in the gospel. The starting place of our theology is important. And the starting place of sharing the gospel is important, and the starting place of our understanding of eternity is important. The original plan is that God wants to be with you. We messed it up. So God made another way to be with us because that's his goal for all of eternity. It is less about where you go and about who you get to be with. And I think if you understand on that principle that eternity is more about my connection with God or chosen disconnection from him, then you understand that if I wind up in hell, it's him honoring my selection, not punishing me for all the time. Right? Like I get to choose, right? Choose this day whom you'll serve, right? Confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Lord, right? He's given us all this time and time again opportunity. And if we're going, no, no, no, no, I don't want it, we have now, his heart is that none should perish, right? That all would have eternal life. But he gave us free will. And we have now chosen relationship or not chosen it. That's the reality of the narrative. And I think the church almost wants to shy away from that conversation because it sounds so this is it.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

But this is it, right? We choose now to serve God, to walk with him, to be with him. We accept the work of the cross and the resurrection. And then, hey, I get to be with him all eternity. Come on, somebody. Yeah. Sign me up. Or I get to look at that he's planted eternity in my heart. It says even the rocks will cry out. Creation declares his goodness, and look at it all and go, mm-hmm, I don't think so. Right. Like that's the reality of eternity, it's less about time and more about who I'm going to do that amount of time with. And I think it's important. Jesus speaks honestly about hell, not to scare us because he loves us. Like that's the reality. I think hell kind of got the misnomer of the 80s and 90s, and it was all about the flames and all about this. And it was almost as if Jesus was trying to scare us. I don't think he's trying to scare us. I think he's showing us that he loves us, right? Mark 9, 43, it's better for you to enter life crippled than go to hell to the unquenchable fire. Matthew 13, 42, they will throw them into the fiery furnace. He spoke about it, right? Because he loves us. If Jesus only talked about heaven, we might even question if hell is real. Right. And I think doing that as tender and compassionate in our mind's eye as it sees, because he's telling us the reality of hell and he's telling us the truth, it is an expression that he is loving. And I think we think it's not loving to talk about heaven and to talk about hell. But it is because he loves us. You're going to be a parent, right? Yeah. I promise you, you're going to watch your daughter play, little Lashawna running out on the front road, and you're going to watch your daughter play. And the moment she goes to run in the road, you're going to scream of the danger.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

It's going to be instinct, it is going to be natural. It is going to just come out of you because you see the opportunity for harm. How is it then we look at God looking at us going, I see the opportunity for harm, and I'm telling you about it. And we go, well, he's angry at us. No, he is so loving towards us. And if you ever doubt the love of God, just look at the cross.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Man, that that is the bridge. That is the gateway. That is the one that provides the way. It's not, again, I think we've looked at this thing going, no, this is a scary movie. No, it's a love story. Sure. So that's that's what I would say. I'd also go in to say this there's no middle ground. We want there to be a middle ground so bad. Sure. Like, well, somewhere there's this like happy medium of all of this. There is not. Jesus left no open door to that. John 3, 16 to 18, belief leads to life. Unbelief remains in condemnation. There is no middle ground. Matthew 7, 13 to 14, narrow gate, wide row, all these things, right? There is no middle ground. And there's a huge rising up talk right now about this idea that there's a middle ground. Everybody's gonna make it, it's all okay. And I actually want to spend the next few minutes of this podcast debunking or demything some modern uh or even some older eternity theology. Yeah. Before I do, give me your thoughts on this whole thing about loving and hell.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Yeah, I mean, what you said is so true. I think unfortunately the church uh has for a while now been willing to kind of sell the idea of hell as if it's something you need fire insurance for. 100% rather than just making available who Jesus is. Like I'm enamored with the idea that for us as pastors and us as the church all over, whether ventures your home church or you go to another amazing church. Like we just get to bring people to the feet of Jesus. It's so good. Go back to it. He's the answer. And so I don't have to be the one that you know, for a long time I think people will yell the idea of, well, you're going to hell because of what you are doing or because of what you have done. And I think the the correct posture, you call me out if you think I'm not right in this, is to realize that I should be. Romans 3 23, for all have sinned and fallen. I have fallen short. I know you have, I know you have. It's the reality of humanity, is we are stuck in sin and deserve hell. We deserve that reality. And Jesus made a way that that didn't have to be so. And I think that's what we need to understand way more than this fear stoking, right? You don't really see God using fear in scripture to motivate people, he calls us to himself. He is the answer that we just have to keep turning back to.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Well, and I think that's why this conversation specifically is so important. Because if my motivation is to avoid the punishment of my sin, the moment that punishment is avoided, I have no more motivation. Yep. So going back to the old idea that I'm gonna promote hell as big, dark, and scary, and I'm gonna get saved so I don't go there, I have no motivating fact to continue my relationship with God beyond that moment. Right. So I've gotten what I needed out of this transaction and now it's over. However, if the absolute eternal connection with God is the motivating factor, eternal of hope, eternal life is the motivating factor, I'm gonna grow towards that the rest of my earthly life because it's where I'm headed anyway. Sure. Uh, and if we don't have a good, clear posture of eternity, it will affect how you walk with God. So here's I got a few things I want to say, and I want to get through some myths on eternity. First, I want to say this if eternity is unclear, life becomes uncertain and casual. And that's where I find American theology right now. There's just a casualness to it because eternity is unclear. If eternity is minimized, mission loses its urgency. You've been around me a lot. I have more urgency 20 years into ministry than I did two years into ministry. I am after this thing because eternity is boiling over in my heart. He has planted eternity in my heart, and that fuels my urgency towards the mission that God's given us. We're supposed to go make disciples. And if we don't feel like this has an eternal impact, you know, you woke up today. God has an eternal impact for your day. And if we don't walk around with that kind of urgency, we will be very sloth about life. Yeah. And we'll be very passive and apathetic. And I see this growing in faith all over America right now that there's just apathy. Where do we think that roots from? We lost sight of eternity.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

And we have a wrong view of eternity. If eternity is misunderstood, this is probably where I really got passionate about this entire episode. If eternity is misunderstood, God's character gets distorted. This is why I wanted to sit down and clarify eternity because the enemy is distorting a loving God through a missed viewpoint and theology of eternity. So let me help clarify some wrong thoughts on eternity. We don't usually reject truth outright. What happens is we tend to soften it to make it palpable. So you think about, you know, well, that seems uncomfortable. She knows, I'm just gonna soften it a little bit to make it palpable. So let's let's walk through some thoughts that have historically come up. Maybe there's something like purgatory, like a halfway point. This middle place where people are purified before entering heaven, why is that not right? I just put him on the spot. Why is it not right? Even without knowing the scriptures that I have listed here and all that, why in your mind is the idea of purgatory that there's a middle place to give you the clear expectation of that there's a middle place that people go and they're purified before they enter heaven?

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Sure. Like I mean, I think if you just chase down the source of where that thought came from, the starting point of the line of thinking on purgatory is there must be some way that I have to earn this.

SPEAKER_03 36:43

100%.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

There must be. And I think we all know, no matter how much you try to tip the scales in this life, we're gonna fall short. But even at like, you know, my grandma's certainly getting into heaven, right? Everybody's grandma's everybody's grandma, but then we're looking at our life because there's a front porch in heaven with rocking chairs and grandmas. You know, hey, I'm gonna caught out though. I think we all know like a cousin or somebody that's like, I don't know about them though, but that that honestly that's the tension of eternity.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

My my eternity might be secure. Um I believe that with all my heart. But what about Jim Bob? What about my neighbor? What about this person? And I actually think it's a release of what you were just talking about. That I don't need to worry about mission because they're gonna have an opportunity after they pass. 100%, they're gonna go into the waiting room of heaven and they're gonna get to just sit it out for a bit. It might be a couple hundred years, who knows how that works. But there's this middle ground where they'll they'll still kind of get in. They they just aren't going right to their mansion. You know what I'm saying? Like they're going to this waiting room, and I just think it's based out of human logic that says, surely it's not as simple as Jesus. I think that's where so often we get faith wrong is when that's the starting place.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

Yeah. So here's the point and simple line I'm gonna give to you, and I'll give you a couple scriptures for it. The cross didn't start your salvation, it finished it. It is enough. And anything that adds to the work of the cross is not theologically accurate, and it's not okay. Hebrews 10 14, for by one sacrifice, just the one, he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. It isn't that the cross isn't enough, the cross is always enough. And any ideology, any theology, any mindset that takes away from the work of the cross did not come from the voice of God.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

I need you to think about that as you shift your focus on eternity. Anything that is Jesus plus is going back to the garden that said, God hasn't given you enough.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

You will be like God. You are insufficient in what He's given you. That did not come from the voice of God. The cross didn't start your salvation, it finished it. And anything that adds or subtracts to that isn't from God. In the end, won't everyone get to heaven? Man, I wish. Right? Isn't isn't that the feeling in the world right now? In the end, everybody's just gonna get there anyway, so why does it matter?

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Yeah. Yeah, I I I think the starting place on this one is really easy to understand because if as a person who has fallen in love with Jesus, you've encountered his grace, right? We come to understand this as Christians, or at least we can. There's so much freedom in it to recognize that his mercies are new every day, that I will mess up, that his grace is sufficient for me. And when we lean into the character of God, the love of God, it's almost hard for us to understand why would, you know, it's that question, why would a loving God send anybody to hell?

SPEAKER_03 39:48

We're gonna get to that one just next. Yeah, I'm gonna go to the next one.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

And I think our again, our human logic goes, well, the simple answer is his grace overcomes, his love is enough. And there's this thought, if I can be very honest, that I've been tempted to think for a while, that would say, would I be surprised if at the end of it, God's, you know, we get to judgment day, right? And we're all before the throne of God, we see him in all his glory, and he just goes, you know what? My grace is sufficient for all of humankind, for all of history. I cover it. Wouldn't that be nice? And the reality is that cannot be true. Cannot. Because if everything you just walked through, that would mean Jesus did not understand the truth. And we get in all kind of problems once we start walking down that line of logic.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

That is what I want you to point out right there. We like that logic because it makes us feel good about our neighbors, it makes us feel good about those that have preceded us in death.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Like honestly, you know, I I I did a um I did a funeral for a young man when I was in student ministry that I knew had not walked with Christ. Wow. And he had taken his own life. And I met with the parents and they said specifically, we in all of our pain, we do not want you to hide this. Wow. Because eternity matters more now than ever before. And if we walk into that, and you if you've ever done a if you've ever done a funeral, the line is they're in a better place. We and we say that so casually without understanding the standing of that person with God. And when we say that, we dilute the reality that there is a real heaven, there is a real hell. You know, Matthew 7, 13, 4 and 14, right? Narrow gate, wide road, all these things that Jesus talked about. I'm rattling scripture off so you can take notes and go back and study it. 2 Thessalonians 1, 8, and 9. It talks about eternal separation. Here's the thing: God's heart is that everyone would be saved, but he will not override or overrule the human heart to make that happen. That would violate the entire narrative of the Bible. And when we eke into a missed theology, like you were saying, like, well, I wouldn't be surprised if I got there. He said, My grace is enough. That would violate the written word of God and violate everything that Jesus stood for. And then I have to question the character of God even further. Why send Jesus? Why do it? Wow, yeah. Why do it? If we were to get to that place anyway, now I have to look at God and go, You're cruel because you went through this. So it doesn't work on either accord. And that is why we have to have a proper perspective of eternity, which then goes, Why would a loving God send people to hell? This is where you're 100% right, where the conversation usually lands. And here is the line that I'm going to give you a couple scriptures and I'll give you some thoughts on this. God is not only loving, he's just. And that line doesn't give me a more loving God, it gives me a less holy God. And that's something we have to wrestle with. We love the loving God. He is both loving and just, and he is holy, which means complete and not lacking. And your desire for a loving God cannot make your God less holy. And that's what the question is really leading to. Exodus 34, 6 and 7 shows us both the compassion and the justness of God. Romans 11, 22, the kindness and the severity of God. Let me tell you something. Your desire and your idea that a loving God will bypass all of this sin of humanity that he couldn't even look at, again, when you get there, you have to then question why would a loving God send his son as a sacrifice if he didn't have to? Your theology is already broken.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Right. Why would he pay the price if he didn't have to pay it? Well, yeah, and I love the line along a similar thought you're saying there, Pastor Sean, of uh it there's another scripture that says that God is a good judge. And there's a line of thought if you go to a legal system that we all understand at a surface level, someone who has done great evil needs to be held to a high level of justice. And that comes with a punishment. Whatever. That punishment might be, right? That could be a whole other conversation on what's the max punishment that doesn't matter right now, right? But the reality is God's a good judge. And so if he looks at the condition of humanity, the condition of every one of us again, and he's a good judge, he can't just ignore that and go, man, you gotta slap on the wrist and just go about your life. But there's a price that has to be paid. There's a punishment that's owed. And again, that's why Jesus is the answer of what I owe and what you owe too.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

All right, you want to have some fun for just a second with the Bible? Oh, I love it. This is not how I was gonna end this, but we got a few minutes. I'm gonna do it anyway. You did this whole God is a just judge thing, right? There's a scripture in 1 John, and I cannot remember it right now, where it talks about our advocate has made propitiation, big word, right? For on our behalf. Yeah. And that word advocate is a legal term. The best way we could describe it is if we were in a courtroom, our defense attorney has made propitiation, all right? Keep in mind that word, we're gonna come back to it. Revelations calls Satan the accuser of the brethren. Okay? That word accuser is basically a prosecuting attorney. All this is legal language in the original language. So very much the Bible is painting the imagery of a courtroom. And God, the judge, is sitting there. Now I want you to imagine this, and this is why eternity matters. Every time you do something wrong, your accuser's going, see? See, he did it. He messed up, he did wrong. You have to punish him. You are just. This is so good and so profound. You are just. You have to punish him. And now imagine a courtroom. The defense attorney's not going to come up and go, be merciful, please, judge. If your defense attorney, when you've done wrong, says be merciful, you've acknowledged punishment. No, our defense attorney, our advocate doesn't go be merciful. It goes, I've made propitiation, I've made the payment, and because you're just, you have to accept my payment. Wow. Because you're just. So when we remove the justness and the holiness of God, we're exposing ourselves. Because he's just, he has to accept that payment. And that payment was good enough for all of us to have an eternity with him. And I would say right now, if you're exploring eternity, please explore it with him. Accept the work of the cross. I may never know you, may never meet you, but I hope that you know God and I hope you've met him because an eternity with him is worth it. We are so grateful to walk out this faith journey with you. Uh, we hope you've enjoyed it. I want to tell you one more time, come back for the next episode because when I think about eternity, it fuels my passion. It fuels my desire to share my testimony and to share the gospel. And so many people do not know how to accurately do that. So we're going to walk you through that on the next episode. If this was helpful to you, do us a favor like, share, subscribe. When we share this, we're taking other people on our faith journey. And many of us need to shape our theology of eternity. So listen, go have the best week of your life. Go live your life with eternity in mind. And together, let's go change the world.