From WashU to Netflix: How to Lock in Your Return Offer

In this episode, we’re joined by Dov Schwartz, a WashU alum who studied Computer Science and Economics. Dov previously interned at Mastercard and Netflix and is now an incoming full-time software engineer at Netflix. He shares insights from his recruiting journey and breaks down the key steps engineering interns can take to secure return offers and make the most of their summers.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Career Exploration series hosted by the Technology, Data, and Engineering team at the Center for Career Engagement. If this is your first time listening, thank you so much for joining us. My name is Shavimengi. I'm a junior studying computer science and business, and I've been a student intern with the Career Center for the last two years. Today's episode, and actually the last episode of the semester, focuses on the journey of Dove Schwartz, a recent Washu graduate who studied computer science and economics. He's had internship experiences at MasterCard and Netflix, and we'll be returning to Netflix full-time as a software engineer. We'll also talk about how to make most of your summer internships and also set yourself up for success going into the next school year. Dove, thank you so much for being here. For those of you who may not know you yet, could you introduce yourself and walk us through your journey from WashU to Netflix?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Sure, yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Shivy. Yeah, so I started off at WashU uh basically undecided on my major. I was gonna major in economics. Um I took an intricate computer science class and then decided to change my major to computer science and economics and pivot towards looking for a career in software engineering. So starting in like late freshman year, um, I started looking at ways that I could get into the field of software engineering. Um I started talking to people from my business fraternity that I was in, AK Psy, um, and other connections that I had made to learn more about uh what it takes to get a role. And I started building personal projects and then um yeah, my sophomore year, I was able to land an internship with MasterCard. Um, and then just kind of took went from that internship, try to get, you know, the best opportunity you can for a junior year. And for me, that was uh Netflix, and it it worked out really well.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Awesome. Yeah, you've had lots of really cool experiences, and it's awesome to hear like the ways that you got interested into software engineering at first. Um, so to talk about those internships, as you mentioned, you've interned at MasterCard and Netflix. How did you um land your first internship at MasterCard? And what do you think made you stand out in that process?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

So the first thing that helped me land my MasterCard internship was having um projects on my resume. I had done a couple of projects over the summer after my freshman year, which I was able to put there and display and talk about during interviews. And then to actually get the MasterCard interview, I went to the uh Washi Career Fair, and that was my first interaction with the recruiter at MasterCard. And then my second interaction with her was at the Washi Hackathon, which is in October. Um, I had the opportunity to speak to the recruiter and she gave me her email. I reached out and um she was able to connect me to the recruiter that handled the interviews for the software engineering internship. Um yeah, and then as far as Netflix went, um I had zero recruiter connections. I just cold applied. Um, and I think one of the reasons that I got the interview was I there was a technical assessment called Code Signal, um, which I I did very well on. Uh and then as far as what I had in my resume, I'm sure not everyone that did as well as I did on that assessment got an interview. So trying to think about the intangible factors that might have contributed were my MasterCard experience, having a well-formatted and and um well-worded resume, having those projects, and then um potentially maybe a few specific interests that I wrote down. I I really could not tell you what um allowed my resume to get through there.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah, no, it makes total sense. Like how you mentioned this code signal part of the application and how that sort of um led to your interview. And I think it shows the importance of like every part of your application. Um, and obviously with software engineering, it can vary a lot from company to company um and from role to role. So between your two experiences, what do you think were the biggest differences um comparing MasterCard and Netflix?

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Uh that's a good question. I think I mean they they they're very different companies in in what they do. I would say there's some the internships are actually pretty similar in the tasks that I was assigned to do, which are basically building a dashboard of some sort in it to speak very generally. Uh I think that's a typical uh intern project, at least it was when I was interning. Um so I was given a mentor. In both cases, I was given a mentor um along with my manager, my manager, and we I worked closely with the mentor to build the um intern project that I was assigned throughout the summer and then presented that at the end of the summer to the people that that were um in my group. Um as far as differences, um, I would say Netflix was a little bit more structured on the feedback that I was receiving and how I was gonna be evaluated. Um at Netflix, they have a very strong and followed like culture guidelines. Um the Netflix culture memo memo is uh is is known amongst the industry, and the the there's a book about the Netflix culture, which doesn't fully stand true these days as they've changed a little bit and expanded as a company. But um so basically we had a midterm review where we were evaluated on certain criteria and then um similar for the final review. So you kind of had an idea of how well you were doing. Um MasterCard, I did meet with my manager every week, um, but we kind of just checked in and was like, oh, it's going well, it's not going well, and you kind of navigate from there. Uh the the companies themselves are pretty different. MasterCard is a lot bigger. Um, it seems like there's a lot more niche teams, although you'd be very surprised. Netflix has a ton of teams that you might not even necessarily associate with Netflix or understand like why they on service level why they are at Netflix. But Netflix is Netflix's engineering. Netflix has a very uh um established engineering um arm of their company, and so they they do a lot of stuff in-house that that's super cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yeah, I think those differences make total sense and uh like how you sort of talked about the feedback structure of both um internships and how it can vary from company to company, and hopefully you're able to like learn you know things that improved your experience at uh both companies. So I really appreciate those insights there. Um and I know like going back to your MasterCard experience as a sophomore, maybe like one probably your first really official experience of such a large company. What are some things that you wish you knew um like going into it, or things that you like you wish that went better throughout the summer?

SPEAKER_00 7:07

That's a good question. Um let me think. I think as an intern, sometimes you get a little caught up in making sure that you do all the right things, and you don't understand necessarily that it's a two-way street. Not only are you trying to prove yourself as a as a worthy person of the role that maybe your internship leads into, but also like you know, you're trying to prove your skill set. But at the same time, you have to be evaluating the company and the way that they're treating you, their practices, how they go about their development lifecycle, um, the way that their teams, their team interacts, how how you get feedback and and your uh opportunities for growth. Um, I think it's very easy to be a little bit blind to that side of the things when you're going into an internship. Uh, it's very important to understand like where you fit in and and how you see yourself at the company. And then also like how can you trying to actually use their resources? So reaching out to people, gleaning information from them, like talk to everyone on your team and ask them questions about how they work and how they operate, what makes them successful. These are like tidbits of information that vary from team to team. And so, like, if you were to ask any random software engineer, they might give you any random response. But the fact that it's coming from someone on your team makes it a lot more helpful for your role. So reach leaning on resources and understanding it's a two-way street is something that um I definitely didn't do as much in my my first internship. Um, but definitely could have, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Yeah, absolutely. No, I think that makes total sense, especially going into it. It's it's most interns probably feel pressure to not lean into those resources to like completely stand out. Um, but I'm glad that you mentioned that. Hopefully that helps some other students that are nervous about uh maybe some experiences that they have coming up from them. And going back to Netflix, and of course you're returning there full time. So congratulations about that. What do you think that you did um overall that summer that helped you stand out and ultimately secure a return offer, which I'm sure is really competitive at a company like Mex at Netflix, especially on the engineering side?

SPEAKER_00 9:21

I think number one, I was highly communicative with my mentor and manager, um, constantly maintaining maintaining an open line of communication of what I was working on, any questions I had, um, any feedback or insights that I had to provide. Um, just being incredibly, you don't, no matter how good the work that you're you're doing is, you don't want to do it in a silo, like in a box where no one on no one actually has um visibility into it, because then people just aren't able to understand fully your workflow because your manager isn't just evaluating the final product on its own, like, oh, you're you're supposed to build this dashboard. How does it look? How does it function? It's not really about that. It's about what is your work process and how are you as a coworker and as a um, you know, as your your manager's and engineer. Um and so just being completely open throughout throughout the experience with my manager and mentor, I think allowed it to be that I would I was never really worried about like any um performance review that would have kind of come out of nowhere um or like be or be unexpected because I was constantly in communication with my manager and I was asking for feedback constantly. So there was never really um a worry that I wasn't actually aware of how my manager felt about my performance. Um and yeah, so there was like some feedback that I got at the midterm review that I could have I could improve on, and that was my number one focus for for the second half of the of the year or of the summer, just making sure that that was any doubts about my performance were completely eradicated. So I think if it's really like there no one's out there to get you, um at least not at Netflix, maybe at some other companies. They're really out there to to to see how like they they want a new employee, right? They want someone that can do the work that that they're being required to do. And if you can prove to them that you are the person to do that, that makes everyone's life easier. It makes your life easier, you get a job, it makes their life easier because they found someone that that actually works on their team. They don't have to continue to search for someone else. So it just understanding that dynamic is really important.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Yeah, I think that makes total sense. Um and I think it might be, I'm glad you said that because I think um overall maybe feel like interns might not realize that these managers and people that are giving you feedback don't expect for perfection and how they appreciate when you go up to them and a point of struggle. And I think that shows like an intern's um, I guess, curiosity and ability to wanting to learn, which I think is one of the biggest um characteristics and individuals that they want on their teams post-grad. So I'm really glad that you um talked about that. And I think you I think you kind of touched on it, um, but a lot of students struggle with what to actually do in an internship, like maybe like really specific to the tasks that they're assigned. Um, so what does going above and beyond sort of look like in an engineering role? When a lot of engineering roles, like you mentioned, sort of have like that set structure of you have a project, you present to certain people, there's like a midterm and different things like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

So especially at the outset of your project, write down any question, any and all questions that you have that that you'd like to get filled in. Um as far as so that like there's you leave as few gaps as possible. When you're going when you're approaching a situ a situation, um you know, take a take a second to pause and and think about how you actually want to approach it. Um, and then maybe have that maybe check that those ideas with someone a little bit more experienced on your team. Um the biggest thing that I'd um that I'd advise against is just asking questions to people without showing that you've done your own research. Um it the the last thing that someone that a senior engineer on your team wants, your manager is a question with no context that requires a lot of effort on their part to help you answer. The best way to ask a question is to say, this is the problem I'm having. These are the things that I've tried to do to solve it. These are still the gaps that have remained after my efforts. Um and here's some evidence of what I've tried, whether you have debugging logs or something along those lines. If you can put that all in one message and obviously word it nicely, um not like not be demanding, and you can and before you send that message, you understand like this per is this person gonna be able to read this message and answer this potentially just by reading the message, or are they gonna have to go off and do their own research to figure it out? If the answer is the former, that's uh that's a good thing. If it's the latter, uh either continue to do some research or consider the person you're talking to maybe a situationally, it's okay. Um I yeah, I think does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yeah, absolutely. Um I think having a structure to every time you have a question is really important, especially when because people don't want to be inconvenienced and they especially don't want to go out of their way when they probably don't need to. Um so I think that's a really great way to stand out and also go above and beyond.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Um I also um advise you to write down the questions that you have throughout the internship and what the answers to those questions were so that way you don't have to um continue to ask the same question because nothing's worse than someone asking the same question over and over. That's a very bad look.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah, absolutely. Um we've talked sort of a lot about the different steps that you took and obviously the successes that you've had in your career journey so far. But what are some common mistakes that you see interns make that potentially hold them back from getting return um offers?

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Um so in my personal experience, the the people that I've seen that haven't gotten return offers have been unprofessional with recruiters. Um just because like you've gotten the internship and you've you feel like you have some kind of footing in the company doesn't mean that you shouldn't always like consider every thing that you put out there, especially in writing. Chevy, I know we took our tech writing class last semester and our professor said that like don't say anything in writing that you wouldn't want to have to defend in court or even like show your parents or anything. Um not to say that you're gonna say anything to your career that would incriminate you, but on a lesser a lesser extent, don't say anything to your career that you would actually like not want get sent to like the CEO of the company. Um be very professional, think twice before sending any messages. Um and then so my second that that's my first piece of advice. Second piece of advice is be very humble. Don't be cocky, don't think that you know a lot. I think in this age of like a like AI is coming into play, and you you might just based off of your experience from college know a lot more about how to use AI and LLMs in your workflow than um someone on your team, that doesn't mean that you are better than them, and it doesn't mean that you are um more capable than them. So I would be I would advise you to be as humble as possible.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Yeah, absolutely. Um I think impressions matter. So, like you said, and like the messages that you sent, and people being unprofessional, and also on your second point of being maybe overconfident, I've seen so many interns assume that they already get the return offer by just getting the internship. Um that assumption definitely can kill return offers um because then they just don't put in the effort over the summer, which is really important, like you mentioned, in an industry that's getting more and more competitive with um AI. So now I think you had some really good insights there. And outside of the technical work that obviously happens in these internships, um, what skills or habits do you think are really important for interns to develop over their um summer breaks and maybe underclassmen that are still, you know, building their resumes um and different things like that?

SPEAKER_00 18:00

I yeah, definitely um building personal projects, it's gonna look a little bit different now than it did for me, um, just because AI wasn't as fluent. Um, and so I would say I don't even know the landscape of what recruiting looks like right now. Um but tailor your skills to that, like whether it's lead code or whatever, if lead code has been replaced. Um, and then personal projects, like really try to think outside the box and and take a problem, literally any specific problem in your life that you can actually like build a project off of. It doesn't have to be something that hasn't already been done before. Um, it should just show that you have a lot of autonomy and agency and in being able to produce something that that that you um that's like an actually good product. At least that's for um recruiting for software engineering. I think the ability to show that you are capable um is kind of the key underlying message that you want to send. Um networking is not a bad, is not a bad thing to do at all. Um building your network and and not being transactional, making sure to um establish connections from the point of view of curiosity, um rather than asking for a referral or internship as like your number one um priority. So that's those are the two things I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Yeah, absolutely. Um I think those are great steps that people can take through their summer to um set themselves up. And I guess that sort of ties in to my last question for you, and just to maybe sum up some of the key pieces of advice that you've given throughout um this podcast. So for students that are about to start their first internship this summer, what are two to three actionable things that they can focus on from day one of their internship? And maybe if you just want to end off on an overall piece of advice for interns or students going into their first major experience.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

So make sure to have a one-on-one conversation with everyone on your team, um, asking them mainly enjoyable things to talk about, not technical or work-related. Ask them what their hobbies are, where they like to go on vacation, um, things like that. Just just casual things because people like to talk and they don't want to talk about work all the time, but they do want to get to know you. Um I would say keep a I I call it a work journal of what you what you do every day, so that um when someone asks you what you've been doing, you always have you always can like have a reference to to sh to know exactly what you did because it's very easy to forget what you've done. Um and when you know you're looking for to advocate for yourself, that's really important. Uh and uh as an intern, just try to try to put your best forward every day. You're only in the office for eight hours, you never know who's watching and what like what impression you're gonna make. So while you are in the office, while you're on the clock or whatever, um be the best version of yourself.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Yeah, absolutely. I think those are great pieces of advice to end on. Um, and you've had some really great insights overall today. So, Duff, thank you so much for being here and for everyone else listening. Um, always remember that we have our amazing career coaches that are specialized in each in engineering industry, whether you're interested in software engineering, like we talked about today, or chemical engineering, or anything that falls in between. You can always schedule a free appointment with our coaches and also me and our other intern, Caitlin, are available for resume reviews, mock interviews, or anything um like that. But since this is the last interview or podcast of the semester, I want to thank everyone who has sort of followed all these episodes, downloaded them, and hopefully has uh applied these insights into their own life. And I just really hope that. Um they've helped sort of set everyone up for the summer and maybe give you guys just good pieces of advice um as recruiting is such a hard and long journey. But yeah, thank you, Dove, once again. Um and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Thank you, Shibhi. Mm-hmm.