Ramblestream Podcast
Welcome to Ramblestream, the podcast where we share the stories behind our simple, beautiful machines and the people who craft them. Rooted in Northern Indiana’s manufacturing spirit, we explore how we blend timeless, globally sourced components with a personal, built-to-order approach that connects us directly to every rider. Join us for conversations with makers and owners alike as we dive into craftsmanship, community, and the joy of riding something truly your own.
Ramblestream Podcast
Rear Suspension Secrets: Why Hardtails Actually Rule
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Rear suspension is often treated as a modern necessity, but for many riders, it’s just another layer of insulation between you and the road. While the industry moved toward complex linkages and plush travel decades ago, there is a specific kind of magic found in a stripped-down, rigid frame. Richard Worsham and Jansen Utech break down the "boots-on-the-ground" engineering of the Janus lineup and explain why "simple" is often much harder to design than "complex."
We sit down to discuss the evolution of motorcycle rear ends, from the early days of plunger suspension to the modern triangulated transom on the Halcyon 450. We get into the mechanical lore of hairpin seat springs, the geometry of anti-squat, and the "olio pneumatic" designs of the 1930s. Richard shares the technical reality of chain tension constraints and why the Vincent-style concealed suspension was the key to maintaining a vintage silhouette on a machine capable of 90 mph.
The unglamorous truth is that building a hardtail in a soft-tail world isn't just about being contrary; it’s about managing weight and energy transfer without losing the soul of the bike. Whether it’s a spring snapping on a cross-country trip or the high-frequency reality of a 250cc engine, the goal is always direct feedback over artificial damping. You’ll walk away with a better understanding of how road holding differs from mere comfort and why "direct" usually beats "plush" when it comes to the experience of the ride.
If you care about motorcycle design philosophy, vintage engineering, and supporting men's health through the Distinguished Gentleman's Ride, you’ll get a lot from this conversation. Subscribe to join our weekly rambles and share this with a fellow rider who appreciates the grit of a rigid frame. What is the most "uncomfortable" bike you’ve ever loved riding, and would you ever trade its character for a smoother shock?
Welcome And DGR Fundraiser Plan
SPEAKER_00Hello everyone, welcome to the Ramble Stream Podcast. I'm Richard, and I'm Janssen. Each week we sit down for rambling conversations about motorcycles, the experience of riding, design, and whatever else catches our fancy. Bring a beverage of your choice or stories, and we'll see where this takes us.
SPEAKER_02If you're interested in thoughtful conversations, friendly and informative banter with fellow riders, and the latest dispatches from Janice Motorcycles headquarters, you're in the right place. Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01You've been hearing us talk this whole time.
SPEAKER_02Welcome back again. Good evening, and welcome back for Ramble Stream episode number 128.
SPEAKER_01Yes, sir. 28. Can you believe it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we're back with another controversial ramble.
SPEAKER_01How do you go from one stream, money, to the next, trash? That's my question. I'll take that up to the technology gods.
SPEAKER_02As long as it's working, we're good.
SPEAKER_01We're on fire. We're gonna keep rolling. Just keep rolling.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So we have a great uh ramble for you. Um, we're sure to row some people up. One thing that we kind of decided in the pre-ramble is that all super chat um contributions, if you decide to do so or if not, that's fine. But all super chats this evening are gonna be going toward our DGR fund. Yeah. So they're gonna go toward the uh Janice team. We've already put in, I think 70 bucks. Pre-ramble, we've already raised $70. So all that's going toward Distinguished Gentleman's Ride, which is why we are all dressed up this evening. It's happening next Sunday at here at Janice at least at 9 45. Yep. Side stands up, and we're riding a very picturesque route, very urban picturesque route to Elkhart Triumph. Um I'm kind of getting ahead of ourselves on the events announcement, but also probably a providable explanation for our uh, you know, we're usually pretty dapper, but extra.
SPEAKER_01Extra this evening. You know, and and it would be a shame if we dressed up all nice and uh I wasn't still wearing my Crocs, you know, and the white socks. These are my dress crocs today. Uh, it's just based on the context of what I'm wearing. Uh but yeah, we're the Birken Crocs. We're so excited uh to go on this group ride with everybody on Sunday. Again, uh all super chats um will go toward uh our DGR team. Uh DGR supports uh men's health in a lot of different ways, specifically, I think, suicide and prostate cancer. Yeah, mental health as well. Mental health. Um so yeah, uh all of that is appreciated. That'll go straight into our team. We're trying to raise ten thousand dollars.
SPEAKER_02And we're at about 3,500.
SPEAKER_01We're about 3,500. So you know, if you guys can just pull out your wallets and we can raise uh 6,500 bucks real quick tonight. Great.
SPEAKER_02Uh no, but in all seriousness, um you can go to your friends, post about this on your social media, go to your work. Um it's a it's a really great cause, it's a lot of fun. So um please consider helping up if you haven't already.
Host Intros Whiskey And A Poem
SPEAKER_02Without much further ado, though, uh, my name is Richard Worsham, co-founder and head of design here at Janus Motorcycles. I am broadcasting from downtown Goshen, Indiana at the Ramble Studio at Janus HQ, and I ramble with a 1980 Cushman Truckster, a 2009 Kawasaki KLR, and a 2017 Halcyon 650 650. We make with this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that'd be cool.
SPEAKER_02Halcyon 250, number 68. That's how we would make the announcement. Yeah, we have a new model.
SPEAKER_01I'll I am writing Halcyon 650, a test one.
SPEAKER_02No, we have no 650s.
SPEAKER_01Uh, my name is Jansen. What are you sipping on? What are you supposed to do?
SPEAKER_02Oh, this evening I'm sipping on Sean Watson. Remembered his name this week. Let's go. Uh JT Mellick, Distillers Louisiana handcrafted whiskey. It's made from rice. And if I had been told that and hadn't tried it, I would not be as excited. But it's delicious. I've got a big fan.
SPEAKER_01I've got a big question for you. Yeah. Is that considered a bourbon?
SPEAKER_02I don't even think they would even make that claim. I mean, this is just a whiskey, I think. So it's I mean, okay, we can get a couple things straight. Bourbon has to be made with corn. I mean, there's just no getting around that. Um, and there's some still from Louisiana Rice, Providence style. Providence style that is style. I like that Providence style.
SPEAKER_01That's nice. I haven't tried it. I'm sure it's Jansen. My name is Jansen. Richard is punching the microphone. Uh, we are I'm also broadcasting live from the Ramble Stream Studio here at Janice Motorcycles World Headquarters. I ramble in a Ford Lightning and will be rambling on a Phoenix 450 number four, probably just named Fours. Richard, what poem do you have for us today?
SPEAKER_02Today we're turning to Mr. Auden and a poem called The Old Man's Road.
SPEAKER_01Old Man.
SPEAKER_02Across the Great Schism, through our whole landscape, ignoring God's vicar and God's ape, under their noses unsuspected, the old man ro old man's road runs as it did, when a light subsoil, a simple ore, were still in vogue, true to his wherefore, by styles, gates, hedge gaps it goes, over ploughland, woodland, cow meadows, past shrines to a cosmological myth, no heretic today would be caught dead with. Near hilltop rings that were so safe then, now stormed easily by small children. Shepherds use bits in the high mountains, hamlets like stretches for lovers' lanes. Then through cities threads its odd way, now without gutters, a thieves' alley, now with green lampposts and white curb, the smart crescent of a high-toned suburb, giving wide birth to an old cathedral, running smack through a new town hall, unlookable for by logic, by guess. Yet some strike it and are struck fearless. No life can know it, but no life that sticks to this course can be made captive. And who wander with it are not stopped at borders by guards of some theocrat, crossing the pass, so almost where his searchlight squints, but no closer, and no further where it might by chance, so in summer sometimes, without hindrance, apotropaically scowling, a tinker shuffles past in the waning year. Potters, a colleopterist, poking through yellow leaves, and a youth in spring trots by after a new excitement, his true self, hot, not self hot on the scent. The old man leaves his road to those who love it no less since it lost purpose, who never ask what history is up to, so cannot act as if they knew. Assuming a freedom, its powers deny, denying its powers, they pass freely. That one bears rereading to gather the whole.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to go back and reread back and reread that one. Okay. The video is out. Maybe we will read it. Maybe, maybe, maybe we'll just read it next week. Hey, Richard. I like that one. It's a nice poem. Great, thanks. It's a nice poem.
Builds Of The Week Bike Breakdowns
SPEAKER_01Um let's get on to a fan favorite segment, Richard, Builds of the Week.
SPEAKER_02Up first, we've got a 250 without a hardtail. So it has with rear suspension.
SPEAKER_01Whoa, whoa, I'm confused. Yeah. This is Phoenix 250 1012. And this is uh this is Jonathan's. Let me say, let me get over here real quick.
SPEAKER_02We got a Phoenix, so that means it has rear suspension. Let's get out of the way first.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it does have rear suspension.
SPEAKER_02It also has flint suspension.
SPEAKER_01It has b it has all the suspension. I'm gonna guess. Oh gosh. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna guess the American blue.
SPEAKER_02American blue? I'm gonna go with uh I'm gonna go with cream.
SPEAKER_01Okay. There's that front suspension. Oh, two tie downs. Very nice. Fan favorite. Fan favorite. Jansen favorite co-host favorite. Whoa! Boom! Cream nailed it. All right. On the money. Is that black? It looks like black. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Very nice, very nice. M bars.
unknownLook at that.
SPEAKER_01Ooh, tie down a little bit. Oh, look at that number. JM100627.
SPEAKER_02Very nice. Very nice. Got a deluxe tank. Very cool. Polished aluminum. Good angle of the shot of the tank. Let's go back to that one. You want to see what a phoenix looks like from above? There you go. Look at those knee slots.
SPEAKER_01Fit right in. Tuck on up. Carburator? Ooh, double seed. Double seed. Double seed. We don't see a lot of those. We don't see a lot of phoenixes. This is a very different phoenix.
SPEAKER_02Slotted side covers? Oh.
SPEAKER_01Nice. Looky there.
SPEAKER_02So we have a 10th anniversary Phoenix 250, single pinstripe and black on cream primary. We have a brushed exhaust, black seat, double seat, two mirrors, and the special number plate. Also the anniversary edition um logo over there on the side.
SPEAKER_01Very cool.
SPEAKER_02Has passenger pegs too.
SPEAKER_01Planning on two up.
SPEAKER_02Two up bike right there.
SPEAKER_01Very nice. Great looking motorcycle. Up next, we have. Greggy. Greg's.
SPEAKER_02Greggy. Gregory. Griffin number 10.
SPEAKER_01450 number 10 here. You guys first.
SPEAKER_02I'm going to go just because it's like in my head right now, I'm going to go with um vintage red.
SPEAKER_01Vintage red. I am going to go with Confed Yank. I'm going to go with you. I'm going to go with British Racing Green. Sentac U as well. We're in this together. Um there's a green over there. Barely. Maybe. Oh maze. The one time neither of us guessed maze. This is an early, an early color reveal.
SPEAKER_02That is maze and copper.
SPEAKER_01I would not have thought of this color combos.
SPEAKER_02Me either. I was also going to say that. Interesting to see. I'm interested to see how this looks all together.
SPEAKER_01The the the maze looks um I've never seen it in this kind of lighting before.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it definitely looks a little different. So you look at that. You can see see the difference in lighting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh it looks almost green.
SPEAKER_02Copper.
SPEAKER_01Wow, look at that. It looks kind of sharp.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm really interested to see how this turns out. Not that I probably have seen it around the shop, but isn't it funny?
SPEAKER_01You probably see these every single day.
SPEAKER_02There's the very unique front horizontal for the 450. No tie downs.
SPEAKER_01No tie downs. Gregory.
SPEAKER_02Gregory.
SPEAKER_01It's okay. We'll forgive you.
SPEAKER_02Just this once. See how that front swing arm kicks up? You want to go back? No, it's okay. Or argue.
SPEAKER_01That is cool.
SPEAKER_02There's your subframe. Well, reservoir under the seat. Cargo rack. That's the um that previous image was of the um quick release for the seat. The cargo rack makes swing rear swing arm with rear suspension.
SPEAKER_01What does the um cargo rack do? It makes the uh the the top line kind of kick up. I kind of like that. Yeah, there's another picture of it. It's kind of cool. Bam. I like it. I like the copper. Now the the maze looks like a banana in this in this lighting. Gonna cruise through these. Very nice. There it is.
SPEAKER_02That's really sharp. I like that. It's not a combo I would have picked, I'll be honest. Yeah. But it looks very, very nice in person. I I'm a big fan of the maze in any combo, but it uh I would have expected the copper not to stand out as much. Uh-huh. It's very visible. I like it. It looks and it goes together well too. Also, we have some wheel pinstripe on there.
SPEAKER_01Nice.
SPEAKER_02So we have a Griffin 450 in maze yellow with copper single pinstripe. Um, we have a copper feather logo with a deluxe tank, which means polished side covers, which is a kind of a secret menu item these days. Um, it has a number plate, it has barb uh hand guards, it has two mirrors, brushed exhaust, wheel pinstripe, brown seat, cargo rack. Is there anything else on this bike? This is pretty loaded. That's it.
SPEAKER_01That's really nice. That looks really nice. Great work, Gregory. Yes, it's a good looking motorcycle. Uh up next, we have this is our last and uh our last one for today.
SPEAKER_02David with a Halcyon 450 number 424. I think it's interesting that all the bikes we featured have a resuspension. You know I could have picked one hardtail.
SPEAKER_01I I I thought of a lot uh today, but not enough, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Uh I'll go first. Yeah. Um this one's going to be vintage red. We're gonna I'm gonna get I did get one already.
SPEAKER_01You got one. I'm gonna I'm gonna guess um oh gosh. Uh black nice pretty match. Let's see here. Gunfanyg says he's sticking with green. No fork tie downs. It's okay, we forgive you. Rear suspension. Whoa, that's weird. Turquoise Symtex says. It's cream. It is cream. What's the pinstripe color though? I wonder. It's like black and copper.
SPEAKER_02I don't know, actually, I can't quite.
SPEAKER_01That's black and double black.
SPEAKER_02I I like matching pinstripes. I mean, I like double ones too, but like it's it's very crisp.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That BMW kind of vibe.
SPEAKER_01It's a it's like a distinct choice. I love the the saddle brown as well.
SPEAKER_02You can tell this person has a sort of decisive nature.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02Is this David?
SPEAKER_01Yep. David.
SPEAKER_02David, decisive person, obviously.
SPEAKER_01Obviously. Way to go, David. A little close-up of the Brembo Caliper here on the DNS motorcycle's rim etching in the background. Very cool. Look at that.
SPEAKER_02So we got a House on 450 with brush, oh, sorry, cream, primary color, double black pinstripe, saddle brown, uh, seat, and battery box, brushed stainless exhaust, um, standard fenders, headlight visor, double mirrors, and a number plate. Very nice.
SPEAKER_01Very nice. Classic. You see knobby tires? Oh, those are just stock tires. Oh, those are stocked.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_02Silver uh feather logo.
SPEAKER_01Great looking motorcycle. David, congratulations. I'm lost. You're lost? My mouse got lost. Uh great. Now,
Hairpin Seat Springs And Breakage Story
SPEAKER_01I figured since um we were this is one of the things that I thought about. Uh, since we were talking about rear suspension, I figured it would be cool for us to look back. Why don't you do that thing?
SPEAKER_02Would you want me to do that thing? I mean, you kind of can't, you you actually this is your idea. Like you're supposed to do the thing, and I'm not prepared at all to do the thing. I'll add some input.
SPEAKER_01So, since uh we decided that we were gonna talk about rear suspension to say or the lack of, uh, we wanted to feature some hairpin seat springs.
SPEAKER_02So this is some old Janus lore here. You gotta you gotta have known you gotta have been uh a Janice rider for a while to uh know the story of the hairpin spring.
SPEAKER_01And this seems like it's this isn't the halcyon 50 ones, though, right? This is the this is this is the halcyon 50?
SPEAKER_02Very similar.
SPEAKER_01Golly, I can't really squeeze them. Um yeah, these are what we used before.
SPEAKER_02That was the first springs we used.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, before the the spiral of the coil ones that we have now.
SPEAKER_02Coil ones, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I just think these are super cool. It's a different way to uh when you think of a spring, I don't think of something like this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's operating in exactly the same way that a regular spring does, because springs, they all function the same way. Um, but this one it's just different because it's direct, it's very obviously twisting the spring this way. Right. Um as opposed to as opposed to just rotating it this way. Um, but yeah, this was the first springs that we came out with the uh Janus bikes, and we this was the only rear suspension for the 50 in the 250. And I think uh enough time has passed that I can say that we didn't really understand the geometry that's required for these. Uh-huh. Um, and so first of all, they were very hard. Yeah. And they also tended to bind because of the nature of the the way that we were mounting this. We started off mounting them like the seat pivot was here. Uh-huh. And then we moved them this way and it worked better. Uh-huh. So that so you can you can see that they changed directions on early bikes. But um, we we were we started getting reports of people's springs breaking. Because they were too stiff. Well, well, either they well, no, it wasn't because they were too stiff. I mean, if they were too stiff, they would just not bend, right? Fair, fair. But they were binding because they were they were bolted to the top and the bottom, uh-huh, and then they were pivoting from a point, but that pivot point wasn't concentric to where the spring wanted to bend. If that makes sense, like you need it to be further away for it to work properly. Uh-huh. And so what would happen was they would break either here or here at that bend.
SPEAKER_01That's a rough surprise.
SPEAKER_02Well, yes, it is, and I can tell you from experience. I was riding cross-country with one of these, with these on a 250 in a standard seat. And that was on day five. Oh my god. So I was going right. I was I actually started the day in it's hard to believe. I started in Illinois. Uh-huh. I got to Goshen. We did like a quick tune-up on the bike oil change, and I got back on the bike and kept on riding. And then I got to New York, like the state. And literally, I was on the phone with my wife because I have one of the had the little you know, Senna headset. Yep. And I was just kind of like, you know, talking, you know, because I didn't talk to anybody for like a week that and I was talking and the road, I was like, wow, New York's roads are really bad. It's like it just changed to being like really a lot of potholes. And I was on the phone and all of a sudden the seat goes boink. And it like and it went sideways. And I literally right away I was like, I was talking to my wife and I'm like, and I just broke a seed spring. And so I rode the bike with the broken seed spring all the way into New York City for the final day.
SPEAKER_01Was your back sore because of the yeah?
SPEAKER_02My back was sore anyway. I couldn't tell the difference. Um, but anyway, we then um changed to coil spring, so just a simple, like when you think of a traditional spring, right? And we were able to also change the length and the spring rate. Yeah. So it was dialed in.
SPEAKER_01From the service side, these were a lot easier to replace and change.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, these are very easy to replace. I chose these originally because they were just cool looking.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh. That's the reason.
SPEAKER_02I think they're very oh, a spring that goes sideways, not a we'll do that.
SPEAKER_01What um, what other like are these specifically made for seats? Like, or or what is the original intention for?
SPEAKER_02Well, so this label is from vtwin manufacturing, great American supplier, and it says torsion type seat spring, chrome, five-inch size, heavy type.
SPEAKER_01Heavy type. Hey, so yes. We should probably should have gone with a light type. Yeah, maybe. I think the light type, but you would have replaced them. Yeah. Yeah. This is uh I just thought these are cool and they are fun. And they're fun to talk about.
SPEAKER_02If I had a 50, I think I'd keep the coil springs on it. Or the the hairpin springs.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's surprising how little give there is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is. But you don't ride a 50 very far. Although, unless Mr. Gary Smith and he just did a great ride a couple of weeks back. Really? About like 40 miles on it. On the 50. With yeah, with a bunch of other mini bikes. You went to a mini-bike rally down in southern Indiana.
SPEAKER_01That's cool. That's really cool. How do you how do you feel after that one, Gary?
SPEAKER_02I think you feel pretty good. He said he had a blast and the bike did really well. Um, it's all hopped up too. He got Devin to do a bunch of work to it. So I rode it last rally, and it's it's a screamer. It rips. It rips.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it rips. Well, we have been you've been hearing us talk about DGR um all night tonight.
DGR Ride Details Rally And Events
SPEAKER_01Uh that is one of our announcements that's happening this Sunday.
SPEAKER_02Sunday starting here at 9 45. Well, it starts earlier than that. I think you can get here at 8 45 or 9. Um, we'll have coffee and so maybe some donuts, and then we'll all kickstand side stands up at 9 45. And we're gonna be riding to Elkart Triumph via a kind of a nice urban route um between here and Elkart. It's not a very long ride. Um, probably uh oh, I don't know, 25 miles. Um, but uh we decided this year to stick to the city and show off and toot our horns at people and just you know, be a be a thing, which is one of the fun things about most DGR rides in big cities is they ride right through the city, and it's a kind of a part of the whole reason for this is showing off and yeah, getting attention for both motorcycles and um men's health. Yeah. So we're gonna be doing that this uh this Sunday, this coming Sunday. And if you're not in Goshen, this is not something that is even an American phenomenon. This was founded in Australia uh 15 years ago. And um, I was just saying on the preamble that I've been doing the DGR since like 20, the 2015, 2016, the year after it it was founded. Yeah. So um it would I've been doing it for a long time. It's a great cause, it's a lot of fun. You get to dress up in your finest, maybe even get a little bit um over you can you can really overdo it a little. You can dandy it up a little bit. Um uh and it's a lot of fun. And your city probably has one unless you're in a really small town. A town like Goshen probably wouldn't have one, except that we're home to America's newest motorcycle company. Right. So um we uh we have one, but uh there's one nearby you. And if you are participating, um you can join the Janus Motorcycles team and collectively help us reach our goal of $10,000 by this Sunday. And it actually goes on a little after Sunday. Yeah. So you can wrap up a little bit more. Um, go talk to your coworkers, your employer, your employees, depending on how it works, and um your friends, and help they can donate to your to your campaign as well. So check out uh the links which we have on our website and our emails we're sending out to y'all where Jansen just posted. So thank you all very much for everything you've already contributed. We've already raised over three thousand dollars. Yeah, really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01What's next? We've got uh oh, the the owner's rally, the Janice Ramblers Roundup. That's happening uh at the end of or in the middle of September.
SPEAKER_02In middle of September, weekend of the 17th, I believe.
SPEAKER_0117th to the 20th, yes.
SPEAKER_02It's gonna be a blast.
SPEAKER_01It's gonna be a lot of fun. Uh VIP tickets are gonna be the thing that you want to get. That's everything included, food, um, and also uh early access.
SPEAKER_02Early access to workshops, which are gonna go fast.
SPEAKER_01So I just posted the link in there if you guys want to make it out. It's a weekend full of uh just a good time uh with fellow uh ramblers and people who uh you would never normally hang out with, uh, but you realize that you've got a lot of common. So uh you guys can join by using the link I just posted in the chat.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, those are the people that you show up to a rally, you would never want to hang out with them.
SPEAKER_01No, never, ever. Except if they run a jail list. Right, that's the only reason. And then our last announcement is uh on May 31st, May 3.1. Uh, we'll be up at the Moto Market in Detroit.
SPEAKER_02Uh or just I'm actually I've kind of forgotten about that. I'm really excited. It's gonna be fun.
SPEAKER_01It's gonna be a lot of fun. Yeah, I don't know what to expect, but uh, if you guys want to uh come hang out, uh it Hunter puts on great things.
SPEAKER_02Uh it's gonna be very stylish.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I can I that's one thing I can guarantee. Richard, do we wear do we wear you gotta wear your like your one show t-shirt and your like your thorough goods or your red wings, you know.
SPEAKER_01You gotta look hip. Probably not my crocs.
SPEAKER_02I'm probably not your crocs. We'll go your crocs. People are just gonna scoff. That's fine.
SPEAKER_01They can scoff all they want.
SPEAKER_02The motorcycle hipsters or Detroit or Ferndale. No, no, it's gonna be a lot of fun. I'm looking, I'm really looking forward to going.
SPEAKER_01Yep, that's where we'll be on May 31st, and there will not be a ramble stream on June 1st because it would have happened the day before. So uh, if you can make it out that way, that would be really cool. We'd love to see you there. But that's all the announcements we have today. I think it's
Rear Suspension Debate Kicks Off
SPEAKER_01time to start talking about rear suspension, Richard. Because we haven't yet already. Stupid. Wear my good crocs. Yeah, I'll wear my good Crocs to the show. Rear suspension is stupid, unnecessary. Clip it, clip it.
SPEAKER_03Clip it.
SPEAKER_01Clip it, put it, post it everywhere. Rear suspension is stupid, you don't need it. Well, I want to hear the some of the the thought process behind.
SPEAKER_02Well, we have we do have some good comments about rear suspension. Um, but while we're kind of maybe scrolling a little bit for that, um rear suspension is an interesting thing. Why is it that you need rear suspension or that you don't some bikes don't have rear suspension, but they always had front suspension. What's up with that, right? Right. Um and then when was the first rear suspension? That's another good question, which I actually don't have the official answer on. Yeah, some of the very early bikes had rear suspension and some pretty advanced versions of it.
SPEAKER_01It was just a leaf spring.
SPEAKER_02Some of them had like plunger seat posts and stuff. Like I'm not I'm talking like earlier than Harley's and stuff like that. Merkel, I want to say, okay, had a weird rear suspension on like one model. Um, but anyway, yeah, rear suspension was something that well look at the thing I always want to say is look at bicycles. Some of the most advanced bikes today have rear suspension, but it's only a pretty recent uh thing on the scene of bicycles, and some of the most advanced bicycles today still don't have rear suspension. Um, there's a lot of reasons for that. I'm not a bicycle expert, but uh a lot of road bikes don't. Um I think it has a lot to do with transfer of energy. Um mountain bikes, some mountain bikes do, some don't. Um but when it comes to uh motorcycles, the first real modern type suspension for the rear of a bike comes out with the Velocet.
The History And Mechanics Of Rear Suspension
SPEAKER_02Um Velocet was a British motorcycle brand in the going way back, but they came out with what we would recognize today as modern suspension in the mid to late 1930s. Okay. Um they called it oleo-pneumatic, which is what they still call airplane suspension. Huh. So it's a slightly different version, but and they did, and it was directly derived from airplanes. One of the guys working at Velisset, who I'm blanking on his name, was also a pilot. And so he adapted what he was familiar with and came up with the oil over or oil damped suspension system. Previous to that, you would have found spring suspension, like leaf suspensions, primarily at the front. Um, you would have also found uh in the 30s, they started experimenting with plunger. Uh so plunger is something if you're familiar with like BMWs from that era. And they I think BMW plunger suspension even into the 40s and maybe even probably not the 50s, but they used it for quite a while. And plunger suspension is basically the back of the bike doesn't really have a swing arm so much as it has it's a bit able to just move up and down, right? And the problem with that is that you run into very um complications with chain tension.
SPEAKER_01Uh that makes sense. Right. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Um, and that is one of the problems with motorcycles and rear suspension is how do you keep how do you have rear suspension? How do you make the rear wheel move but still provide power to it? And um what we've arrived at is this very funky design where the chain I mean there maybe there are a couple of bikes that have come up with a way to make the countershaft from the engine be concentric with the pivot for the swing arm. Right? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So they're in the same point. So no matter what point the wheel is in travel, the chain tension is the same. Right. But 99% of motorcycles have the pivot point of the rear suspension and the countershaft in a different location, which means that as the wheel goes through the travel, the suspension travel, the chain tension changes. Which is if you were to say, like, you just think about that as like an engineer without being familiar with motorcycles, you say dumb. That's that's bad idea. That's gonna break so fast. Um, but it what we've actually found is you just find this really nice balance point and you tighten the chain and you just not too much. No, no, you just leave a leave the chain a little slack so that it can when it tightens up, it it's okay. Right. It doesn't shatter anymore. And meanwhile, the chain's just loose.
SPEAKER_01Right. Just slap it around. That's how we do it. It's fine.
SPEAKER_02Um, unless you have a halcyon, in which case you tighten the chain up and then it gets looser as it goes through its travel. Right. It's a little different. Um, but one of the benefits of moving, putting the counter shaft and the pivot in a different location is that you can actually have anti-squat. So you've heard us talk a lot about anti-dive. Well, anti-squat is the opposite, where which is exactly the same thing. There's a reason we do this on the motor on our bikes with anti-dive. Right. On the back, you have anti-squat, which means that as you accelerate, it counteracts the the the squatting effect of accelerating. Kind of takes you up a little bit. Um, and so that can be tuned. Um and it's they basically for work at it's basically a formula these days with where the countershaft and rear axle or pivot point go. Um, we've never really had to worry too much about that because most of the engines that we have basically locate the engine off of the pivot. Yeah. So it's basically set by the engine manufacturer where we can put it.
SPEAKER_01Right. That's a fun constraint. I mean, it makes a lot of sense, right? Yeah, it also makes sense. Why why would you kind of make it more intricate than what you need to?
SPEAKER_02But um, but back to the point of like why uh rear suspension um rear suspension wasn't as important, just like today with bicycles, because you weren't going very fast.
Road Holding Versus Comfort On Real Roads
SPEAKER_02And the bike didn't weigh that much. So when you hit a big bump, it was like you just either stood up or it didn't hurt because it was like a bicycle hitting you. Right. As motorcycles got faster, we're talking about you know, significantly faster, and the road condition stayed the same. Which was Well you gotta imagine some of these early, you know, motorcycles were were just most of the roads were gravel, right? And they had potholes and well, gravel road, washboarding. Um, so a lot of these early bikes, they they these riders were riding them on you know, uneven terrain, and they didn't not have any suspension at all because they had some form of of a of a spring. But where the rear suspension really comes into its own is in road holding, not comfort. So the real reason that we have rear suspension isn't, I mean, part of it is comfort's great, right? You don't want you, it's nice when you go over rear tracks and you don't have to stand up, right? Or you hit a pothole unexpectedly and you don't get jarred or your back gets you know all screwy messed up or something like that. Um, but what what's what's really important about rear suspension and front suspension, but especially rear, is that when you're going around a corner, if you're if you're not going in a straight line, or even if you're going, let's just say you're you hit a bump, right? What happens is the rear wheel will lose contact with the road, especially if the entire motorcycle is locked to it, if it's a hard tail, it bumps over that bump and then it'll get airborne, right? So you lose contact. If you were to, if you do that in the in a straight line, you wee, right? It'll scare you a little bit. But you're there's that's okay. You hear the engine maybe freewheel a little bit.
SPEAKER_01You remember that you're alive, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But if you do that in a corner, you really are aware of your existence, yeah, because you lose traction. Yeah. And and that's not a good thing. Um, so that's really the the major benefit with rear suspension, especially on a more powerful, heavier bike. Because again, if a bike is very lightweight, it's it doesn't the you your body can kind of absorb the the the bump, right? And you can your body English can account for it. When your bike gets heavier, the bike will go where it's going to go. Yeah. And there's not much you can do, there's less that you can do to adjust for it. And so also it happens to make it more comfortable, but road holding is the is the main thing. So when we when we shift, we we ne we've never felt that the 250 needed rear suspension. It's funny. A lot of riders will come here and they, oh, I need rear suspension, and they top on the Griffin or whatever, and then they I'm like, Well, you want to try out the 250 Housey on, you know, just get the whole experience. And they ride it, and they're like, wait, hold on. This is more way more. This is I like this one more.
SPEAKER_01This is kind of nice. I like this.
SPEAKER_02And you can't you can't t tell somebody that and expect them to believe you. They have to try one. Right.
Why A Hardtail Can Be Fun
SPEAKER_01Um, but uh how many other like hardtail motorcycles are being manufactured?
SPEAKER_02None.
SPEAKER_01Like that's a that's a cool thing, a cool trophy to have, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we're the only one. The only I mean, am I wrong? I I would tell me, is there anyone else making a hardtail motorcycle today? Production motorcycle? There's plenty of you know, choppers, right? Custom bikes, right?
SPEAKER_01But not coming off of a coming out of a manufacturer, I think.
SPEAKER_02It should be illegal.
SPEAKER_01It should be illegal. They can't those guys in their garage can't do that. Yammy, we're talking to you. I'll call you out. No, I I uh had never ridden a hardtail before the Halcyon. Um, and I was genuinely surprised at uh how much more fun it was, and I know you guys are gonna be like, oh, Janice is or Jansen's a Janice shell, whatever uh shill. Uh I legit think that uh it's way more fun to have a little squirrely bike with no rear suspension than one with. I think uh Fortnine, Ryan Fortnine like exemplified. He did a really good job describing it.
SPEAKER_02Uh if you haven't watched that video, look up Janus Motorcycles Fortnite uh F O R T 9. Yeah. And uh he did a great job talking about the Janus.
SPEAKER_01So the the thought process behind the Alice on not having suspension was like it's it's light, it doesn't need it, or like what what kind of led you guys to it was more like being ornery, maybe uh a certain level of contrariness and just kind of passion for a really stripped down bike.
SPEAKER_02We really wanted to make it as simple as we possibly could. And I think I actually tried justifying it to Devin because he was not a fan. Uh-huh. He was like, he wanted to do the Phoenix first, and I was like, oh, what if we do the hardtail? And the way I justified it is like, well, guess what? We won't have to buy rear suspension.
SPEAKER_01It's one less part we have to buy them. We can make them cheaper. Um now, have we tried no rear suspension and no front suspension?
SPEAKER_02Um, I used to have a moped that was rigid. Uh JC Penney Swinger 1, which the most popular JC Penney swinger is a JC Penney Swinger 2, okay, which has front suspensions.
SPEAKER_01After they realized that no suspensions are really bad.
SPEAKER_02It was only like a one and a half horsepower. Oh, so the same rule applies and had big thick tires. You know, it was it was a it was a slow bike, and you really didn't it didn't bother you, but front suspension. Um a lot of mopeds didn't have the the maxi n didn't have rear suspension, and those were like one of the most popular mopeds because they just look cool, yeah, because they had that clean back end, just like a LCN 250 or 50. Um, but anyway, what what else can we say valuable about rear suspension?
Designing Hidden Suspension For The 450
SPEAKER_02Yeah, when we moved to the 450, yeah, guess what we did?
SPEAKER_01Put suspension on it. We put rear suspension on the bike in a very different way.
SPEAKER_02Well, we had some constraints. Um, the main constraint was that we had a bike that was capable of 90 miles an hour, it weighed 100 more pounds. So we're getting into real motorcycle, like larger, mid-size motorcycle territory. And I was pretty convinced that we weren't gonna be able to get away with no suspension. Yeah. Um, one of the criticisms of our model line, and the most popular model was that it didn't have rear suspension. So we thought, well, what if on this one we do offer that so that people have an option? Right. If they want to have the true minimal experience, they can get the halcyon 250. If they want to get more of the kind of halcyon experience, but but in a more modern package, we have fuel injection, kind of answering like that's probably the main complaint with the 250 is rear suspension and carburetor. No, that's a complaint for some people, that's a benefit for a lot of other people, right? I would say a lot of people I I hear but it but I mean if you want to have an option an offering that kind of goes across the board, it's nice to have both. Yeah. Um, but yeah, 90 miles an hour, uh you know, closer to the 400-pound mark. Um suspend I I I wasn't really a negotiable. I was like, we're gonna have to have a rear suspension. But we have a beautiful motorcycle, we can't just throw your suspension on there and ruin it. And so uh rear suspension does sort of change the aesthetics of a bike. So we we we picked a suspension design um that would preserve the beauty in the simple simple lines of the halcyon motorcycle in general, um, and carry that forward to the larger size with rear suspension. In fact, you get rear suspension and you get seat springs.
SPEAKER_01Right. A little double whammy.
SPEAKER_02Double whammy.
SPEAKER_01Now, I don't think unless you like really look for it, I don't think I would be able to tell that there was rear suspension on the the four.
SPEAKER_02Similar to the Harley soft tail, which does it uses a kind of a similar design. Um what we our design was based on the Vincent Um uh Phil Vincent patented his rear suspension design in 1929. Yeah, and it's basically that same design. Yeah. Um, it's a great design, it works exactly in the same way as normal paired or any kind of suspension, um, but it's just concealed. It it moves it up and it provides a nice, really triangulated rear transom. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So now, if you had to pick rear suspension or no rear suspension for the rest of your life.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. I think it would have it would other factors would have to weigh in. I'm I'm pretty impartial. I mean, I'm building a motorcycle right now that's gonna have no rear suspension and no seat springs, arguably unrideable. Maybe we'll see.
SPEAKER_01But it'll look cool, it's gonna be.
SPEAKER_02It'll look real cool.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I just think uh it's gonna have cushioned seat. Yeah, well it I feel like minimal cushioned seat, just a skateboard thick piece of foam, just very thin.
SPEAKER_02Ostrachide.
SPEAKER_01I think if I uh something I hear you say a lot about the lack of rear suspension on the Halcyon 250, is it feels a lot like a bicycle, and you've kind of made some references toward you know that tonight. But um, and I and I think that describes the feeling of it well. Uh it just if it's a light motorcycle, so uh yeah, I don't think it needs it. And it brings uh a level of exhilaration and a level of fun that uh kind of counteracts the necessity for it.
The Simplest Motorcycle Philosophy
SPEAKER_02I mean, I would just boil it down to the fact that if you want we our goal at Janus is to build the simplest, most direct motorcycle you can buy. That doesn't mean that it has to be small displacement, that doesn't mean that it has to be hardtailed, that doesn't mean that it has to be handmade, that doesn't mean it has to be carbureted, all those things. But if you start trying to build that bike, that simple direct motorcycle, you're probably gonna find that if you want to strip things away, fuel injection, uh super heavy, big giant engine, exhaust pipes, extra exhaust pipe, extra carburetors, whatever it is, rear suspension are some of the things that you're gonna pull away from that. And what you're gonna end up with through that paring down and that simplification is a lightweight, small displacement, hardtail motorcycle that's carbureted, and that's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01Isn't that weird how that works?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, and this is like this is like we're off on the far outer reaches of motorcycle, you know, this is on the border of insanity. I think people often confuse and then the right in the middle you have got like the electroglide. Yeah, or whatever, in America at least. Right.
SPEAKER_01I think people often confuse our um desire to make a motorcycle motorcycle like that as like this hipster, like they're just trying to be trying to be different kind of thing, and I think that's so far from the truth because I mean partially it is, like just one of this contrarian. Yeah, but but at the same time, like it serves its purpose really well. Um, and I think.
SPEAKER_02a lot of people would benefit from just like trying to I do think that uh even the even you halcyon 450 owners in the chat I can see you I can see your comments but you when you when you come to the rally which you will take out a 250 Halcyon and tell me what you think.
Wrap Up And Next Week Tease
SPEAKER_01Well that's been the show uh this is episode 128.
SPEAKER_02We will see you guys next week for episode 129 where we we will be recapping the distinguished next week is it Labor Day or is that or when what is the big holiday is the week after Memorial Day. Memorial Day sorry Memorial Day it is next week uh I can't remember if it's next week or if it's the week after. Okay.
SPEAKER_01But either way we will be on we will have a show on Memorial Day whenever that is whenever that is uh but we'll see next week again episode 129 and we'll be talking about the Distinguished gentleman's ride. We will see you then thank you bye bye.
SPEAKER_02That wraps up this episode of the Ramblestream podcast thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the show subscribe wherever you listen share it with a fellow rambler and please consider leaving a rating. And join us live every Monday at 7 p.m on YouTube for our weekly Ramble stream.
SPEAKER_00You can also find us at ramblestreampod.com and on social at ramblestream. We'll be back next week with more conversations, more stories and of course more rambling. And remember many of those who ramble may very well be lost but that's probably the point.