011: When a Calling Becomes Your Starting Point: Brian Enright on Creativity, Courage, and Rebuilding Your Life

In this episode, Parul speaks with Brian Enright, founder of Industrialicious, an artist and sculptor whose work turns discarded industrial materials into pieces of connection, memory, and meaning.

Brian reflects on leaving a promising path in technology after realizing that success on paper was not the same as feeling alive. What started as a desire to work with his hands became a long, uncertain reinvention built through welding classes, reclaimed materials, Alaska summers, and years of learning without a clear map.

What followed was not an easy artistic breakthrough. It was years of multiple jobs, financial pressure, slow skill-building, and the quiet discipline of continuing before the work made sense to the outside world. Brian shares how Buddhist practice helped him move away from blame, return to his purpose, and rebuild his relationship with success.

He also shares how COVID forced him to close a business he had spent years building, and how that loss became a turning point rather than an ending. The conversation explores creativity, the body, sustainability, and what happens when people reconnect with making, play, and purpose in a world that keeps moving faster.

The result is a grounded discussion about courage as both a leap and a daily practice. The kind that asks you to keep choosing alignment, even when certainty has not arrived yet.

Explore the Conversation

00:00  Finding Meaning in What the World Discards
02:58  Turning Corporate Waste Into Shared Art and Purpose 
04:59 Growing Up Close to Nature and Creativity 
06:18  Studying the Human Side of Technology
08:00  When a Successful Career Starts to Feel Wrong 
11:40  Alaska, Reuse, and a New Way of Seeing 
14:33  Learning to Build From What Others Discard 
19:20 Following a Creative Calling Without a Plan 
25:30  Building a Self-Made Path Through Art 
29:31  When the Body Knows You Need a Change 
37:08  Letting Go When the Business Disappeared
43:09  Setting an Impossible Goal With Purpose 
48:46  Waiting Years for the First Big Yes
51:21  What One Win Does Not Guarantee
55:03  What We Lose When We Stop Making
58:42  Returning to the Why Behind the Work 
01:03:14 Courage as a Leap and a Daily Practice

Explore more:

• Connect with Brian Enright on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-enright-designerist].

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Today's guest is artist and sculptor Brian Enright, founder of Industrialicious, a creator whose work transforms reclaimed industrial materials into large scale sculptures filled with meaning, history, and hope. Before becoming a full-time artist, Brian worked in the world of technology and usability design. But over time he felt pulled towards a different path, one built with his hands, rooted in community, sustainability, and human connection. His work has included sculptures made from salvaged industrial materials, wildfire debris, and even confiscated weapons transformed into symbols of healing and dialogue. Courage Curve is largely about women and their journeys of reinvention, but every now and then a story comes along that so powerfully captures the essence of what this show is about, courage, reinvention, and choosing a life that feels true, that it needs to be told. Brian's is one of those stories. What makes Brian's journey so compelling is that it's not just about art. It's about walking away from something that works on paper, trusting a calling before there is certainty, and finding meaning in things and maybe people the world has discarded. Welcome to the Courage Curve, a space for women who are standing at the edge of a shift or already moving through one. I'm Peru. My life has been shaped by steady decisions, inner resilience, and the moments where I had to choose courage long before I had clarity. Each week I will speak with women who simply didn't arrive at a breakfast. They built it step by step. From the outside, the transformation cannot instant any aside. But together we will uncover the real story, the pressure, the truth telling, the small choices that create the inflection point that we call the current curve. Let these conversations stay close to you as you move through your own curve with strength, honesty, and companionship. Brian, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Wow, thank you so much, Karul. Thank you for that wonderful intro. And yeah, really just honored to be here, both because you speak to such accomplished and storied individuals, and also it's a huge honor to be asked as the first male on your podcast. So really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, you're very welcome. I'm truly breaking the rules.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Well, I'm I'm all about that. I like that.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

So thank you for being a party to that. Let's just start with what you do. What is industrialicious about?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

So I've been uh a sculptor for the last 19 and a half, 20 years, and Industrialicious kind of grew out of part of that path. We run, my business partner and I run a corporate team building workshop for large-scale companies, Fortune 5000. And we go to them, we set up a workshop, we uh run whatever number of employees through there, 50 to 100 plus. Uh, we teach them to weld. They weld up a frame, they flip that frame over, and I have a table full of material that their company is responsible for that is going to the landfill. And so I show them how to cut that stuff apart and attach it to their frame. So I'm like, here's how you saw a cell phone in half. Here's how you cut a laptop apart or a motherboard. And then I say, go ahead. You can do whatever you want as long as it fits on your frame. Then after they're done with that, we take all the frames back to my shop. We build a 10 by 10 foot sculpture, add lighting and all the bells and whistles, ship it back to their headquarters and install it in their lobby. So it becomes this very circular story and experience around impact, both on the environmental side and the humanistic side and how we are connected to that. And it's something that the language of art is the language of the subconscious. So whether folks recognize it consciously or not, each day they're in the office, they're walking by this piece of art that they may be drawn to or not, but they see like there's another story that can be told with our waste. What does happen to this? Yeah, it's in the supply chain, and where does it go? We we have millions of or billions of these printed a year.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. We'll get to more questions about that piece later on as we go through your story. So now let's start from the beginning. Tell us about your upbringing. Where did you grow up?

SPEAKER_01 5:04

So I was born in San Francisco, and uh I was there till about the time I started going to school. So then my folks moved out to the burbs. So I grew up in Lafayette, um, was raised out there, and then I had a good upbringing. Like we lived out out there, and my friends and I was like, we knew it was like a culture bubble out in that area. It was also, I was um so grateful to have such immediate access to nature and just being able to get out at the end of my block and the at the other end of my street were both kind of entrances to just open spaces or trailheads. And so I spent a lot of time out there, and that's really kind of plays into later parts of my story and how my love of nature and and the environment. And then went to school down at UC San Diego, and then uh following that, I mean, we can talk more about that stuff, but just after school, I had my job in UXUI. And then as I left that, I went out to Alaska and lived at the end of a 66-mile dirt road over five years and and longer.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Okay, let's dig into that a little bit. So, what did you study in college?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

So I was pre-med and I majored in cognitive science. My specialization was human-computer interaction. And so loved my education. You know, UCSD was the first school where there was a cognitive science degree. So our professors and the instructors were just world-class and loved learning about the brain and the early neural models and like so much stuff that like we had a class called Human Computer Interaction where we were just learning about bleeding edge technology that I've subsequently watched become reality over the last 25 years, 30 years. It's been really incredible. So, yeah, I was really interested in that, but I knew I was I took all the pre-med classes in MCAP, but I knew I wasn't gonna become a doctor. I just felt that. So I was like, okay, what uh are my options here? Um in HCI, we were designing interfaces and environments, and so it was kind of like my my subconscious being like, hey, you can design and make things if you go this route. I graduated in 2004. So it was like the internet was still just figuring itself out, right? Like Yahoo didn't really work super well, like and many things on the internet. It was like, hey, I'm not a dummy, but like the I can't get this stuff to work. So I really saw the like human side of human-computer interaction being really important.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Then you graduated and then you took your job in tech.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah, graduated and then I got a job. I was the third employee at a small usability research firm in San Francisco that subsequently, years later, was aqua hired by by Meta. But I was there and I was kind of the it was it was a really cool company. Everyone was young. And the CEO and my manager both had gone to UCSD and studied in cognitive ethnography and and cognitive science. And so it was like the philosophy part of what we were doing. We all totally understood. It was just kind of the mechanics of, and then at that time it was funny because we were a consultancy giving design and redesign recommendations on websites and software. Our research was watching people actually like uh on a website. And this was like when screen sharing was super new. So it was like we had to get people on the phone to download an app ActiveX plugin. You know, 25% of the people were like, no, this is too crazy. Like, I will not do it, you know? And like right now we're screen sharing. It's nothing at a point in time. That was like a scary new technology. And so yeah, I would I would talk to people, ask them questions. It was a full, it was full ninja, like, you know, you're you're reading off a script, like asking questions, taking full notes because there wasn't voice to text. So I'm I'm taking full real-time notes and time stamping with the video recording so we could come back and like be like, oh, that's when this was said when we want to go back to create the video reel. So it was it was a whole crazy thing. And talking to the clients on IM, like AOL Instant Messenger, because they're giving real time, like, oh, ask this question. So it was it was a crazy, like that was really fun to be like to feel so on. But at that point in time, I was like, once I learned the stuff that was interesting to me, I was not interested in business and management. And like that was just not my path at the time. And because of that, like I knew I was not thriving. I was felt like I was just kind of a worker. And as soon as I'd be done with something, there were already three other projects. And it just, it was like creativity is in my blood and making is is in my blood. It's like my mom is a dance instructor. So I grew up dancing and just always knew what it was to be in creative flow. And I had taken three years of wood shop in high school, so I loved like making things with my hands, and I was I was pretty good at it. Um, again, my family, they're they're like farmers from Minnesota. So I'd see my cousins working with their hands when I go back and see them, and they're like younger than I was when I was in seventh grade. They're like wrenching on ATVs and stuff, and they're just like, Yeah, dude, he's a city kid, he's no shit. So, and they were right. So, but I I saw that there was another path out there that wasn't just like, oh, you're gonna be living on the street if you don't have a job in the corporate world. So, yeah, that was kind of part of like, I'm gonna try this other thing. I know I'm not thriving here, and I feel like I need to test working with my hands before I just like give up, like commit to this for 40 years or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

And uh, how long did you work there for?

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Not very long. I worked there for like a year and a half.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

And then you quit and you decided to go to Alaska.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Yeah, I left. I was already planning to go to Alaska.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Why Alaska?

SPEAKER_01 11:49

So one of my best friends had been out there the year before, and he and I had done mountaineering and snowboarding in California together, and he knew me really well. And he was just like, bro, you gotta get out here and see this place. And I I trusted him and I went out there, and it takes like kind of two days to actually get there because you land in Anchorage, and then it's an eight-hour drive to get to the place. The town's called McCarthy. And anyway, when I got out there, they kind of they hired me kind of on the spot to be like, hey, do you want to work the next day as sort of like a not the lead guide, but like a secondary guide, just kind of helping people get up the hill and walk to the glacier and walk on the glacier. And I was like, I'm I was planning to do that anyway tomorrow. So if you're gonna pay me, that sounds even better. And they were like, Yeah, well, my friend was like their key guide. And they were like, he says you're good, so you're good. I was like, that that was how that started. And then I totally fell in love with that place and the community there. I kept going back for five years seasonally as a guide. And another important part about it was that when I went there, like life at the end of the road, no one in 2006 was using the word reuse. That was like a new term that people were even talking about. But everyone there lived it because there's a cost for anything to come down the road, there's a cost for anything to leave. So if it has any continued utility, or even if it doesn't, it's probably gonna stick around. And so I got to see it and it really live that and talk to people who'd been living with that kind of mindset for decades of time.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Yes, and that's how I grew up in India because reuse is such a big thing, and people make fun of some of our Indian habits, wherein we wouldn't even throw away the plastic bags that you would get your groceries in and we would reuse it because that's how we grew up. There's a lot of scarcity and the country after. So, yes, totally get it. That's um that's so interesting. Okay, so you went to Alaska, you stayed there one season, or did you stay there for like a few years and then you came back?

SPEAKER_01 14:08

No, kind of the the guide season is because the town is so remote, there's only 35 permanent residents year-round. So then there's like two to three hundred people between mid-May to mid-September. So I'd go out there for a couple months during the summer and guide, and then I'd come back. And when I came back that first time was when I went into my first class in metalworking.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

So then you decided to learn metalworking.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

I did. One of the things that kind of led me to also switch careers like that was I was reading a book called Cradle to Cradle, a very famous book by William McDonough and Michael Brongart, where they coined the term the circular economy in that book. And when I read it at that time, 2005, it was like reading my own thoughts about system design. How can we design in a way where we think of the end of something's lifespan at the conception of the design? And so we're building towards that end instead of a consumption and waste sort of linear idea. It's like if we're thinking about the end of its lifespan and how it can become useful again at that point, if we design for that, that's much more like the organic natural world we see all around us. A tree, when it falls, doesn't become an unusable tree in the system of trees. It becomes fully usable in all these other cycles, nitrogen cycle, carbon cycle. We can reuse the wood, we can like do any number of things. It's not just like, oh, well, it's fell and it's done. So like don't pretend it doesn't exist and like don't look at it or talk to it or put it in in a landfill and let it just sit there.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Exactly. So it's like that's intelligent design. How can we like we're intelligent right now? We're surrounded by bad design because it's not the reality that like we say these things go away. What tell me where away is? Where does the chair you're sitting on go to at the end of its life? Where do where does away mean? It's simply under our feet. And so to me, I was like, I want to work with my hands, I want to create things, but I don't want to create more stuff that's just simply gonna go in the ground. So I was like, instead of going back to school for material science, or like I really wanted to go to the Stanford D school because it was just like the combination of cognitive science and HCI and build background would be really cool. But I was like, okay, so if I work with material that someone already calls trash, I'm at least doing 100% better. And that's not the answer, but it's at least 100% better. And like that's a starting point. So I was like, this is going to be what I do. So my first idea that I had had was I wanted to build like lawn furniture out of car chassis and biodegradable hemp rope, because in cradle to cradle, basically they're like, if we design things out of material that's fully upcyclable, meaning it's designed to go into another system at the end of its life, or 100% biodegradable, then we have a future. And if not, then we're doomed. So like we continue on this path until we get to whatever critical point. So I was like, okay, car chassis is already bent. I was like, I'm I've never worked in metal. I'm guessing bending it's probably a challenge, but like it's already bent uniformly. So if I cut and paste, that's probably not too hard. And then if I use hemp rope, that'll just degrade and it can be replaced or whatever. So I went into a class at a nonprofit industrial arts school that's open to the public in West Oakland called the Crucible and took my first class. And, you know, the instructor was cool. He was like, hey, man, that's a great idea. Let's learn to weld first. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. Like, yeah, that, yeah, let's do that. And so in that process, you know, I also understood why working with car chassis is ambitious as a first project because you need something larger than a car to transport the chassis to then cut and paste it. And I did not have that. So I switched gears, I made uh an end table out of salvaged structural I beam and a couple other things. And in the class, there was a woman who at that time was a 76-year-old ex-statistics professor from Cal. And she was like, I'll buy that as soon as you're done with it. And I hadn't even finished it. And I was like, Whoa, awesome!

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Like you've hit the jackpot.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Well, yeah, I was like, I was just really happy and honored. She was like, I told her my story. She said, Oh, this is the first thing you've made in metal. You found what you're supposed to do, charge me a bunch of money for it, which I basically like gave it to her because I made mine, then I made a second one and gave that to her. And yeah, it was it was the that sort of encouragement. It's like the right thing at the right time to keep you going. So that was the start.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Okay. And then what happened? Did you become like a really successful business owner where everyone wanted to buy your art?

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Totally. It was so hard. Basically, like friends knew I was I was getting into this. So somebody would ask me, like, oh, hey, can you build a bed frame? Like, well, I never thought of building a bed frame. Sure, I'll do that. Hey, can you build a dining room table? It's like, yeah, I never thought I'd do that. Sure, yeah. Then and it just would go like that. But I also had five other jobs at the same time. I was doing general construction. I I quickly became an instructor. So I was teaching welding and welded sculpture. I was making jewelry. I was doing interior design. I was making furniture and these one-off pieces. And I wasn't yet like making art because I was like not supposed to be an artist, like via my family.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Why did you have five jobs? Were you trying to pay bills through those jobs while you give time to your calling?

SPEAKER_01 20:23

100%. Those different projects were sporadic. So I was really, for the first couple of years, just learning the craft. I really wanted to learn metal, like from the small to the big. So that's I took classes in jewelry, in blacksmithing, in foundry, all forms of welding and wood shop as well and and other things. And then I still would work on a contractual basis with the the UX UI company.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Okay. So at this time you were trying to do everything, which is give space and voice to your calling, which was making art and creating value in in society and in in the environment. And could it create the connectivity that you felt was missing if we remove ourselves too much from the environment? But at the same time, you had to live in the real world, so you have to pay your bills. So you're doing all of these other things. How long did you do this for?

SPEAKER_01 21:21

And I I'll say just as you said, I was trying to do everything. I think that that is that's really generous of you because I did not have a plan. I just had a calling. And I knew when I was doing art, I felt alive and in a way that I didn't feel that in almost any other part of my life.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

If you were building bed frames and such that your friends asked you to make that still I mean, it was I made these bed frames out of reclaimed doors and structural steel.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Like I was doing it was completely my own. I had full creativity. So so to me, it was all It was functional artwork. It wasn't, I didn't even look at it as I'm like, okay, how do I build a sculpture that someone can put a bed on? Like, that's how I looked at it, more than like, and so I didn't have a business plan. I didn't have like, yeah, I'm trying to get to this many units, or like, this is my niche. I was like, I want to learn all the things I can in metal, and then I'll figure out what my my um honed-in path is. The one constraint that I had or tried to keep was just to work in salvage material as much as I could. Uh, let's see. So that started in 2006. I would say it kind of grew very slowly and things uh definitely shifted for me in 2013, um, which actually was when I connected with my Buddhist practice. I chant Namyo Horenga Kyo, and there was just something that was basically like if you think the answers or the problems lie outside yourself, you'll inherently be let down because both exist within you. And I was totally like blaming the world and society or my family or whatever, everything but myself for the position I was in. But at the same time, I was like hooked into the starving artist idea where I was like, I don't want to be successful. I want to just make great art and someone will discover me that sort of mindset, which is like all depends on somebody else. And I think making the shift out of that and really seeing that it was important for me to become successful as an artist because then I can actually help to inspire other artists or other young people or other people, whether they're entrepreneurs or otherwise, anyone who has a dream that they can actually achieve it. It will take more work than they ever dreamt. That was very important. 2013, that sort of started to shift. I got some bigger projects. Um, and then I actually was uh doing artists in residencies for two and a half years, both up in Alaska, back in that same town, and then down in San Diego.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

What is that? What is artist in residency?

SPEAKER_01 24:12

So I was I was given a place to stay and food to eat and paid to make art. So in Alaska, that was the main business owner in the town up there, asked me if I would design, build, and oversee the construction of actually my largest piece, which is an outdoor music venue, playground, and community park built out of the historic mining artifacts of the town out there.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

That's a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

It's a huge honor to build uh a landmark in a in a community that I love on Main Street that's still there and still uh like a part of that place. It's like so cool. So that was again two build seasons. So that was kind of like two years. And then in between that, I was asked to be the lead sculptor for a Cirque de Soleil style interactive immersive cirque show that was down in San Diego. And so I went down there, I was given a place to stay and food to eat and paid to make these interactive sculptures and sort of the design manifesto and like part of the story of this world that was being created. It was such a cool time and such a great experiencing and great group of people.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Interesting. So between 2006 to 2013, before you found your practice, I can imagine life wasn't very easy because you had multiple jobs to pay the bill, and then you were responding to your calling. So, what kept you going during those seven years?

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Honestly, like during that time, really, it was just when I would get back in the studio and just be in total creative flow of making, just like that was the thing that was keeping me going. I was like, there is nothing more fun to me in life than this. Like, I am fully expressing myself. I like have a style now and like feel truly like an artist. I was like, had a painting mentor. I took a the same class at Merritt College for four and a half years with the same instructor. I was, it was just I was learning art history. I was like, I was reinventing myself, putting I had never gone to art school, but I put myself through art school. I created my own art school. I took all these classes at the Crucible and at community college. I became a certified welder. I was taking that, I was taking machining, I was taking like so many different things. I was just, it was like I went back to school in the trades, and then you're learning on the job. When I came back from the artist residencies from 2016 to 2020, I had my own business that made custom railings, doors, gates, furniture, one-off high-end luxury things, fireplace mantles, structural steel staircases, et cetera. But like many times, aside from like the railings, those are kind of just like bread and butter, whatever. I could, I don't need to do railings anymore, but unless they're really cool, many of the projects that we get would be like, honestly, I have a curriculum worth of things to teach just by the constraints given on specific designs. Hey, I need you to build me a jewelry table, display table that I'll take with me to display at trade shows. That's I want it to be however many feet long, six feet long. But my car will only fit something four and a half feet. So the whole thing has to break down and nothing can be bigger than four and a half feet. And it has to look really cool. So figure out how to have something that comes apart and goes back together, and that's straightforward. It doesn't require an IKEA manual to like do it. And you're designing every part of it. So it was a really cool, like from the constraint, I was able to come up with something I was really happy with. And there were so many projects that had something like that. And then again, you add another layer and make it out of salvaged material. Like now, now that ups the bar another layer.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Because that's the constraint you put on yourself.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

For many of the things. For that table was like that, I was not making out of salvaged material. And and that business that I had 2016 to 2020, that was less about that. But the art I was making was always in found materials.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

And how did that business do for those four years?

SPEAKER_01 28:46

I learned a lot. I did a ton of work. I didn't make a ton of money. My my gross, it was really funny because like my gross doubled three years in a row, but my net stayed almost the same, which is like a huge lesson. So again, I had never taken a single business class and then owned a business for 10 years. And so I went back, I took a like mini MBA class at a spot in San Francisco called the Renaissance Entrepreneurship Center, which is great. I'm happy to rep them. And then had I've had business coaches like basically since 2018. And then now I am a business coach for artists.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Fun. So you mentioned that you started practicing Buddhism in 2013. So before that, your calling kept you going. So the time that you were spending making art that continued to create that connectivity for you. Most people are doing jobs to sustain their lives. And I realized it even for me personally, because we are doing things that we have to do, not necessarily what we want to do, although like the line is blurred for me, I do what I want to do now. But a lot of people do things that they have to do. So we end up creating this persona in the corporate world that is not really who we are anymore. Because we're trying to be something to fit in. And over a period of time, I feel more and more people kind of lose sense of what do gives them energy or what gives them happiness. So I wanted to go back to that point between 2006 and 2013 when you were on your own, you don't have a practice to lean on. When you were making art, what were the signals that you were looking for that you were like, oh, this is it, and this gives me energy. So I'm gonna continue to do this again and again. Because it I'm assuming it was very easy for you to just go over the bridge, find a tech company, get a job, and then live a much, much more technically successful in material terms and an easy life.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Correct. Yeah. Well, the thing was, I had tried it and I gave it an honest, an honest shot. And I just, again, we were like a startup. I was working hard hours. I wasn't necessarily getting paid great. It was all right, it was comfortable, but like it was young startup. And I it really like I was I was withering. Literally, it's like the difference between feeling look at a flower that's like not doing good, and you're like, uh, that's sad. And you look at one that's like thriving and full expression, and you're like, it's just so beautiful. Your heart is just like singing. It's like that was the difference. I was like, oh God, I'm going in again today, and I'm gonna do this same thing again. And I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel. It's not like, okay, look, if I just go head down and do 20 of these projects and crush them all, I get through to the other side, and then there's something I'm actually excited about. There was nothing I was excited about. It was just like you do 20, there's another 20. Again, it's also partially where I was in as a person, but it was the CEO was dealing with developers working on creating this software product. The manager was going out wrangling business. And then I was the one person doing the work that was paying for the rest of the company. And so it was like, there's no reprieve or like day off or like thank yous. It's just like this is what you signed up for, you're a salaried employee. And and the, I mean, the funny part was when I left and then came back, it was like they really needed help, right? And they didn't have to train me at all. So it was like I came on and they're like, I'd do a project, it was for three weeks. At the end of it, they'd be like, Thank you so much. And I'd be like, sweet, later I'll take my check and I'll see you in a couple months. And like, I'll do that again. Okay. I did that for a long time. I did that for I don't know, five or six years. But yeah, it was just that. I mean, again, I'll even say, like, in art as a maker, the idea was never, I'm not interested in making the same thing over and over and over and over and over. I'm someone who will prototype something. The excitement is in solving it that first time when everything's new and you're an explorer. But once it's been made, doing it a second time, maybe I can do it a second time. But at that point, that's when you're like hiring it out to somebody else to do. Right. The other part was like during those seven years, the other thing I would say is just clearly I could see, or while I was working at that tech job, it was like stuff was comfortable and good enough. So then I'd just be drinking or just wasting time otherwise. It wasn't there wasn't positive outlets for me at that time, or I really had to go find them. But it was just kind of like I was just dealing with the fact that going into work is such a heavy weight that I'm trying to just like not have that weight. And as a 25-year-old who was just like wanted to use my body and make stuff, it just was not, wasn't gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

The trap of the modern life. Okay. And then you started practicing Buddhism in 2013. So, how did that change the outlook? So the flower wasn't withering at this point, the flower was vibrant, but the flower needed help. So did it act as a fertilizer and then you were just thriving as an individual after that?

SPEAKER_01 34:32

That's the it's a it's a good analogy because yes, at least it had changed from like withering, but it was not getting fed. Like it wasn't getting fed with monetarily or or the that reflection that I that I needed to see. It was kind of like I was losing hope because I'm like, hey, look, I made this switch. I left what would have been a comfortable lifestyle in, you know, in those ways. And I'm doing this thing that I love uh and feel called to do. You know, society of the culture is like, hey, if you do what you love, you'll become successful at some point, you know. And I was I I was seeing all these people who are like just terrible or evil people who are making tons of money and like becoming very successful. And I'm like, I'm actively trying to be a good person and I'm not successful right now. So, like, is this a story of like the good guy is gonna lose? And and that was how it felt. I was like, you took this path and it's not working, and you're trying all these things. So, anyway, once I started chanting and and kind of flipped my mindset around it, I was like, what is the plan? What are you working towards? And it took time, it took some years to like it's like moving a giant ship takes a lot of time just to get it to turn from 2013 to then I did the artist residencies in 2016. I started my own business, leveled up. I was in my dream shop in Oakland. I mean, it was awesome space, it was expensive, but it was amazing. And that went till 2020. And then when the pandemic hit, all my work vaporized. Like I had nothing on the books, nothing coming in, nothing I was working on. And I had a huge overhead of this shop, and so I had to shut my business down. And I ended up working full-time with another sculpture house called the Engineered Artworks, and really got great hands-on experience making big art, like that was public art or going to Burning Man, and was the lead on a number of those projects. Um, and that was actually really helpful and and also fed into like my confidence around starting Industrialicious and what what we're able to accomplish and and execute on.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

I think you're glossing over a few things. So let's let's take a pause because I'm sitting here thinking from 2006 to till 2020, you worked so hard, like 14 years building your business, finally had some traction, were getting noticed because these pieces that you built as an artist in residence um were big reputation building pieces. People had recognition, you had a space you loved, you're thinking, finally in my groove, and then COVID hit, and everything to your point just vaporizes overnight. And then you made it sound so simple that you went and took the job, which if I were in your shoes, I would be probably crying and howling and going, Oh my god, this is just so unfair after investing so much time and effort. I get nothing, and now I have to go work for someone else. So maybe you didn't feel it. Maybe it's just me that I would have had that reaction. But how did you feel?

SPEAKER_01 38:03

No, you you nailed it, yeah, for sure. So I I I will I'll say one other thing I also glossed over was that I had my first solo sculpture show in 2019. And that was a huge victory because I actually took five months off of any paid work and just took out loans and had that show. And I can share more about that, but that that was also something that was a definite like landmark peak experience moment. But yeah, okay, so 2020 happens. I am like the the first part of it, you're like, I had work for six weeks because people were like, pandemic's only gonna be six weeks. So people were like, great, let's build a bunch of stuff and get stuff ready for renting for when the pandemic finishes in six weeks. So it was great those first six weeks. But then when everything went away, um I was just like, you're so correct. I honestly like did not know what to do. If I share about the the Buddhist practice, like everything is around creating value. And I was chanting, asking this question to the universe and myself, how am I? How is this creating value? I'm about to go deep into debt. I'm not making work for anyone. What do I need to do like to move forward? But I gained an insight because I am sure there were tears in that time. It was just like so painful because not only was the work not there, but then the master tenant at my shop was actively making it challenging for me to even like get into my physical space. But I gained this insight and realization that I was like, man, oh you are so attached to the idea that you need to own and run your own business. And that's the only way towards your goal. I was like, why are you so attached to that? And I was like, well, because I need my own space so that I can have a spot to like leave my art out and I can work on over time while I'm doing pieces that are making money in the shop. And so basically I get to have my own time and allocate that. And I have my own tools and all this stuff. And then I was like, dude, what time do you have? You don't have any time. All you're doing is hustling to try and pay the rent. You're not making any money, you're not growing your business, you're just working the same grind to make no more money, and you aren't gaining that time that you want. So, like, all the things you think you want this for aren't even reality. So I was like, okay, when that became clear, I was like, I need to get out of the shop, lower my overhead as much as I possibly can. I need to go work for someone, and that's what I need right now. That's not a backward step. That's what you need right now. Just take that step. And so that's when I was like, okay, if I'm going to go work somewhere, I'm gonna start at like the coolest place that I know that like does something in this world where I can actually learn and gain some skills and experience. And so that was this sculpture house. And then again, when we're chanting a lot, very passionately, you come into rhythm. And so when I called to ask the owner, like, hey, do you because I knew him, that was I had had my solo sculpture show at his space. He was like, Man, you've got amazing timing. I've got a huge project that starts next week. I'd love to have you on it. And so I came on just for the short term. But as soon as that project was done, he was like, It's you want to work here full time. And I was like, I I asked him that. I was like, hey, that went great. If you have more work, I'm down. And he's like, Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. I'd love to bring you on. So that was kind of how it unfolded.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Wow. So you had to really let go of some ideas of success in a way that you had. I'm assuming it had to do with success reputation. Although you were feeding your inner value creation desire, in some ways you were still attached to the material things and how success is measured. And COVID really took that away from you to then expose what truly mattered, wherein this gave you an opportunity to take this job and hone your skills even further. That got you to the point wherein you could think so broadly to create value at enterprise level. How long did you work at that company for?

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Through straight through COVID. So from what November 2020 to through 2022, September 2022.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

What great protection as well.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Oh yeah. Oh my God. It was it was incredible. It was incredible. And yeah, learned so much there and still have a good relationship with them. Just did a project for them recently, actually.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

So what made you think of starting another business? How did that come about?

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Basically, it it was at the start of 2020. So it was before I had started, right? I didn't start with that with engineered artworks until November of 2020. But at the start of 2020, actually, in in the Buddhist organization, we were encouraged to set an impossible goal towards 2030, take 10 years to chant, and take action towards it. And I can share that goal is to create a noticeable positive impact on American culture in our relationship to single use products and things at the end of their lifespan, hence how we design and our relationship to this Mother Earth. And I had no idea how to do that, but I was like, I know I need to be in rhythm with meet the right people, right place, right project, right community, right exposure. At that same time, again, my work had been kind of sporadic. I was looking for more consistent income. And so I was like, okay, what I'd like to do is like teach again. Because I taught at the Crucible for 15 years. And kind of mystically, at that time, someone was introduced to me who ended up becoming my business partner. And like the crazy sort of story with that was he was in like some men's group and they did something on this week where they're like, just go around and say two sentences of what do you need right now? And this guy, his name's Jamie, was like, I'm looking for a uh an artist who wants to teach welding workshops. Like that was just two sentences. And like some other guy who was in that group is like a random connection to me. But he had been at my solo show and I hadn't seen him in years. So I met him that one time and I had said something about like, oh yeah, I'm trying to get more consistent. I'm looking to teach like workshops, like blah, blah, blah. And he he's like, I think you guys should meet. So Jamie gets introduced to me. We super hit it off, like, and just kind of instantly have a really good relationship and see that we're like, want a shared sort of vision. And again, at that time, the idea was like weekend intensive welding workshops for individuals. So four to six individuals coming in. And so we and we couldn't run a workshop for two years. So we just kind of built the the business idea and model and got our hours in together in partnership and building trust and those early stages of of growth and learning. And and we tried it once we could. And we had the people who came in had a great time. They loved it, but it was really challenging to just get individuals in the door. And so I had had a business coach who had said something that's arguably the same amount of work to get one corporate contract as it is to wrangle six people a weekend for a year. And you're gonna have to do this for three years before you build your name and people know to come to you and all this stuff. It was kind of around 2023. My business partner has an interesting job in the corporate world where he does these, I always call them like design maps, where he's like at the in a boardroom at the whiteboard, and execs are kind of like, okay, here is the new product we're launching, or here's our three-year plan for this aspect of our business. And he's literally drawing illustrations on the board with the words that go along with what these milestones are, et cetera. So he's creating a map that then gets digitized as an asset for them. So he's in all these different boardrooms around the country. And he was like, Man, everything you're saying around sustainability is like the same language being used in these boardrooms. And I really think now would be a good opportunity for us to enter into the like corporate team building experience. And I was like, great, yeah, let's do that because we both know how much work this other one is, and it's not gaining the traction that we had hoped. So we came up with this model that kind of merged a couple things. So it's we're we're really proud of this idea because again, it's like, of course, there are team builds out there, there are people making sculptures out of found material, there are big art pieces being installed in corporate lobbies, but like there are no corporate art pieces being made by the people at that company from their material that then lives there. It's a really cool niche that is totally in integrity for myself of how to get in. And it's this pathway to creating big art that has real impact, but it's creating value the entire time. Like everyone who's in an industrialistic workshop, like we ask all of them at the end, was this the best team building experience you've ever had? And like almost everyone says yes. Everyone has said, at least you're in the top five or 10%.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Yes, because team building ends up being team building within that group. However, what you're trying to do is create that connection with the corporate mission as well. So you're helping them create that connection with their company itself, which I think is an additional value. Um I've done a lot of team building exercises, but the focus is that people in the room connect with each other, not so much that we take time to connect with the bigger corporate purpose, which you you're also naming the corporate purpose in the way that you're having these people show up. So I think that's an incredible idea. So I'm glad that you're doing that.

unknown 48:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Then what happened? So then you had your first big win. When was that?

SPEAKER_01 48:50

So when we came up with the model, we then pitched that idea for two and a half years.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Wow. Okay. So it wasn't an instant win.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

I thought it would no, it was like it was continued like iteration and learning. And and again, you know, we learned like stuff that for most people in business is like this is of course, but for us, we were connecting with different contacts and people in our networks. But what we very quickly learned is someone in marketing, mid-level marketing, can love your idea as much as we love it. But they don't have the swing to be able to fund or make that project happen at all. Even if they're a huge advocate and they're, oh my God, I want to do this. And so we were getting stuck at like our entry point. And so there was a point I was just like, we are only focusing on the highest point of leverage that we can. So we are only talking to decision makers at companies. It's not worth anyone's time for us to talk to someone who's not capable of making the decision and and allocating the budget. And so we shifted to 100% focus on that. And so even that took the negotiations and just to get into those conversations, it became the challenge. So, but once we got in there, we were like our idea is sound and it resonated and it resonated with the right person. And yeah, we were speaking with the founder of Asurian, and we were actually talking to him just to get some like an hour of consultation on how to, if he thought it was a good idea, how could we get support or network, connect with his network? If he didn't think it was a good idea, what would we need to do to make it a good idea? But he thought it was a good idea. And it took of the hour, it took about 40 minutes of us just sharing and talking and this and that, and was kind of like, wow, this is super aligned with the ESG goals we were literally talking about on the board, like last week. And I think this would work great for us. And so he's like, We've got this incredible headquarters in Nashville, and I could just see a huge sculpture made out of cell phone parts or tech tech parts in there, and that is what happened.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

That's such an amazing win, such an amazing win. Many, many years in the making. So you finally get your validation at the enterprise level. That is so incredible, and you're you're still doing that. So, what happens next?

SPEAKER_01 51:32

So that was a total success, you know. Both the workshop went fantastic and the piece that was created and installed, everyone is just so happy with, including ourselves. And so, how it worked. It just because you have one win does not mean that like anything is given. And even though so many people are like, oh my god, this is fantastic, you're gonna have people knocking down your door for one of these.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Because then the entire economy changed. Then AI came, and whatever we thought we knew about the world shifted overnight, and then companies are scrambling, CEOs are trying to keep their stock up. So the entire world is appended.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

Yeah, yeah, that's true. But just to speak to that for a moment, it it actually for us is a it's challenging, but it's also a benefit because it's like these companies that are downsized, it's like the people that you do have left are very valuable. And top talent acquisition and retention is like one of the biggest pinch points. And so doing something like this that is really a special experience and a premium experience where people feel really valued and they have a blast, and they're like, and there's something to show even after the experience. Um it actually makes our offer even more compelling. And again, the things that we're solving for that were not part of our initial intention, but are there nonetheless, and it's really cool, is the breaking down of organizational silos, which we know happens at all of these companies, and just getting people back in the office to do to do anything. And and the fact that like the CEO knows as little or less than the facilities guys about welding or using tools, right? Yeah, like the playing field is so level that like everyone's coming in as a total beginner. They have to lean on each other to get through, and it's fun, it's playful because it's like each person's making their own unique art piece, and so they're looking over at the next person, like, oh, what are you doing? And they're like, that's man, that's really cool. They're like getting ideas and they're like, oh yeah. And so, and it's just so fun to see people's creativity just come out when when all the walls are down. It's like, hey, you're here with other people that you work with, but like this is so not like the rest of your daily environment. You can really just play, and that's what it's about. And those moments and opportunities are rare in in the corporate environment. And so it's like I said, everyone that's been involved has loved it. Where we're at now is we're back in our sales cycle, and we have had many fantastic conversations and and people that we are following up with, and it's like things are still going, but we don't have our next contract. So um very much looking forward to that and some good leads that we're talking to right now, too.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

I'm sure it'll happen soon because the world really needs that hope connectivity and being able to feel like you're making a difference in the world, in the job that you're doing. I think there is a lot of unhappiness, disconnect, and just the general need for hope that I think you're providing to the world. Okay, my last few questions for you. You've done this for more than 20 years now, and you started working in the digital sort of environment, and then you had this really strong desire to create with hands. And so, what have you learned in this last 20 years? What do you think society loses when people stop creating with their hands?

SPEAKER_01 55:26

I mean, we live in a body, and our bodies do such incredible things or have the ability to. And I feel like when you stop utilizing your mind, brain, body connection to do things, whether, I mean, that could be gardening, that could be making food, that could be knitting, that could be welding, that could be doing woodwork or or any number of things, any sort of craft, painting, it numbs you because now you're like, I'm not thinking about my body as much. Or I'm like, I'm just up in my head all the time. I'm just when I'm at a computer, I'm just in my head. And like, yeah, my hands are moving on a keyboard or not. I'm just dictating to something, but it's all just in your head. And like there's so much that our body, the wisdom of our bodies, you know, working together with that. And I think that like the other thing is when we talk about or when I talk about play, like when I think about play, maybe this is I'm old school, but I don't think about going onto a device for play. Play is like doing things out in the world. We have that that's there for us for our lifetime. We always get to play, whatever, dress, dress up or like make something, or like go outside or throw a ball or whatever it is. And play, as we know. I mean, there's there's plenty of studies on like our ability to be able to get into that sort of space helps us in the rest of our lives, helps us in our jobs and our work environment. And to me, whenever I think about play, I think about using my body. And so that's something that I think it's kind of when you're only in your head, it's harder to get to that place.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

Full person. Because we are completely dampening the signals that we are receiving from our body, and we're continuing to elevate our brain. That is very true, especially in corporate jobs. We keep ignoring what our body is telling us because we are moving to the next thing that our brain is wanting us to do because we have to.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Yeah, that was like I listened to one of your other episodes and you're talking to the woman about like Susan. Yeah, who was like, Yeah, I shut off all the signals from my body and just just overrode them. I've done that for years. You like freak out and have a like panic attack or whatever. It's just like that's that's the thing because right, it's like again, I I also have a yoga practice. I love the way of looking at the world through that as well. But like, it's so vata. It's so just wind, it's so fast, everything is so fast right now that like slowing down is like being embodied helps to slow us down a little bit. And in AI, the speed of AI only increases like how fast we think we need to be going. It wasn't like it's not like great, AI is doing it for me, so so now I can chill. No, it's like it's doing it for me. So now I'm gonna do four times as much as I used to and just pack all my time just as much as it was, and just corrects my output.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Yes, I think it'll be a longer conversation as to how do we exist as human beings in the world of AI. So another question I had for you, which I asked you a little bit earlier, but I want to dig into that a little bit more. So for someone listening that feels trapped in a life that looks successful externally, but feels very disconnected internally, what would you want them to know?

SPEAKER_01 59:01

I think it's a little related to what we were just talking about with bodies, but really it's being able to listen, listen to ourselves. And so it's not that I'm saying like every person in the corporate world should leave their job and go like become a painter or something, you know what I mean? That's that's not what I'm saying. But but I feel like if you're in a space, just like what we were just talking about with the episode with Susan, like if you're in a space where you're clearly like lacking energy, you're having to whatever, drink drink 10 cups of coffee or something to motivate to like begin your day.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

Yeah, or drink a lot of alcohol or whatever, right?

SPEAKER_01 59:43

We're not we're not built like that. Like, what is your why? Like, for me, one of the huge things was going back to to my why. Even after I had been in art and making for many years, it wasn't till my solo show and the business coach that I had who made me drill back down to my why of why are you doing the show? Why did you become an artist when you could have had a different life, a different path? And when I drilled down into that why, which was, oh yeah, I got into this because I love this planet. I love being alive here as a human being on this incredible planet. And I want that to continue for generations. I want that to be there for everyone, for them to feel connected to the earth, to all these things going on. And that's why I got into this. And when I remembered that and got clear on that, then I was like, okay, yeah, the challenges I have right now, sure, it's challenging right now. I'm definitely gonna continue because this is way bigger than myself. This isn't even like, this isn't my ego. I'm not doing this for me alone. I'm doing this for a much bigger reason. And that gave me so much added momentum to push through the challenges and struggles. Because of course, they're always gonna be there. But if you don't have a why for where you are, and the why is simply monetary, that's not actually a why. Like that, that's that's that's real thin. Like the money can get you something else. Money's powerful. I'm not saying it's not, but be real clear on that stuff. And and whatever tools you have or you know, something that will help you. If you if you don't know that, that's where I would say like start taking a look at other practices. Again, whether that's painting or journaling, could be chanting, could be meditation, could be yoga, could be whatever, could be playing soccer, like that just help you to slow down a little and and get in touch with your deeper motivations.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

Yes. And I think we are at the precipice of a big revolution in the sense of how many people are standing up for themselves in a manner that they will just not do a job for the sake of doing a job or making money. And I have these conversations many times in a day, every day, where people are leaving their corporate jobs, not because they need to, but because they choose to. And they're putting a lot of emphasis on that choice and their choice to create a life for themselves that they want to enjoy or they want to live, also trying to seek a bigger purpose in their life. And on a daily basis, I'm having so many of these conversations that I'm almost wondering how much the world of corporations, as we know, and enterprises, as we know, is going to change. Because does it become more of a negotiation or a chaotic type society where you, Brian, are serving a purpose and me, Perole, I'm consuming your services and I'm offering some services and you're consuming those services? So that's how society works, as opposed to big corporations being around, just become that individual entity and we choose to exist in the way that makes most sense for us, as opposed to an organization. So I'm wondering if if that's around the corner. However, on that note, my last question for you. When you look back now, do you feel or do you think that courage feels dramatic in the moment, or does it usually feel small and uncertain while you're living it?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:29

Good question. For me, when I think about those moments of when I changed careers or when I truly decided I was going to do my first solo show or leave my shut down my business. It's not that I wanted them to be dramatic, but there was definitely like there's a charge there because you're jumping into something unknown. And art, I think, is a great analogy for all of that because every time you make a piece, it I I don't know how it's gonna turn out. So, and it's very vulnerable, right? I'm creating something in the world that I'm then maybe I'm showing to people, maybe I'm not. But there's there's always a moment of while you're even in it, that you're like, oh God, this does not look good. This is not how I wanted it to go. But I have that trust in my whatever taste, intuition that this isn't where it's gonna end. Like we're in the process of getting there. But that first leap, definitely, I feel there's a there's a charge that like just there all the time. When you know your why, you're making courageous decisions to stay in alignment with that why, like on the daily. And then there will be those moments of like, now I need to take a huge leap to do this. And but this is this is also in alignment, just the way those each of those daily decisions have been. So yeah, I think it's a little bit of both, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:05

Well, Brian, thank you so much. It was wonderful getting to know about your life. I knew a little bit about that before, but just hearing your story again in a sequence like that makes me feel so honored to be your friend. So thank you for being my friend, and it's wonderful to hear about your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

Yeah, thank you too. I'm so honored and I feel totally the same. Thank you for this conversation. It's really fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

And you you're serving such a lofty purpose in society right now, and I wish you all the luck because what you're trying to do is not not just give hope back to society, but also by taking these small steps and actions, you're giving them some of their power back as well. So so so needed in the moment. So thank you for having this amazing, lofty goal for not just US, but the entire world that you're carrying.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:56

It's my honor and pleasure. Yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

Thank you for listening to the Courage Curve. I hope this conversation offered you perspective, comfort, or a sense of companionship as you move through your own moment of change. Especially if you're choosing courage before clarity. And remember, women rise best when we rise together. Bollow the show and share it with the woman who may need it.