AWAKEN with Ryan DeJonghe

Dr. Olivier Benarroche: Rapid Change and the "OB1" Method

• Ryan DeJonghe, Founder of TranceWell.help • Episode 14

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In this episode of AWAKEN, Ryan DeJonghe sits down with Dr. Olivier Benarroche, the founder of OB1 Formations and a leader in the French hypnosis movement. Dr. Benarroche discusses his evolution from a traditional medical doctor to a specialist in rapid hypnotic interventions, focusing on how to break the "trance of suffering" that many clients carry into the therapy room.

Key Discussion Points

  • The Dental Origins: Olivier shares how his journey into hypnosis was catalyzed by witnessing the power of hypnotic anesthesia for dental pain, realizing that if the mind can turn off physical pain, it can certainly resolve psychological distress.
  • Leaving Traditional Medicine: Why Olivier chose to move away from a general medical practice to focus entirely on hypnosis, seeking a "human" way to help patients achieve fast, lasting results.
  • The OB1 Method & "De-hypnosis": A deep dive into Olivier's philosophy that clients are already "hypnotized" by their symptoms, and the therapist's role is to "de-hypnotize" them back into a resourceful reality.
  • Intuition Over Scripts: Why the OB1 method prioritizes the therapist's presence and intuition over rigid, pre-written protocols.
  • Rapid Inductions and Shock: The use of sudden, impactful movements and language to bypass conscious resistance and facilitate immediate neurological shifts.

Memorable Quotes

"I saw what was possible with dental pain—total anesthesia without drugs—and I knew then that the subconscious was the key to everything." 

"We aren't putting people into a trance to fix them; we are waking them up from the trance of their problems." 


Special Segment: Hypnotic Gift

Be sure to listen until the end of the episode for a special hypnotic gift. Dr. Benarroche leads a short, high-impact session designed to help you disconnect from stress and reconnect with your inner strength.

Episode Timestamps

  • 00:00:10 – Introduction of Dr. Olivier Benarroche 
  • 00:05:30 – The Dental Connection: Discovering hypnosis through pain management 
  • 00:12:45 – Transitioning from General Practitioner to Full-Time Hypnotist 
  • 00:22:15 – Explaining "De-hypnosis": Waking up from the problem 
  • 00:35:40 – The OB1 Training Philosophy: Intuition, speed, and results 
  • 00:48:20 – The mechanics of rapid inductions and the "Shock" factor 
  • 01:03:45 – Hypnotic Gift: A Rapid Resource Reset 
  • 01:09:10 – Final thoughts and where to find Olivier’s books 

Connect with Dr. Olivier Benarroche

Connect with Ryan DeJonghe

If you are ready to explore your own capacity for change and want to work with me for a session, you can reach out here:

SPEAKER_00

Welcome everyone. I have a very special guest with us today. And I'll let him introduce himself because I'm shamefully bad at it. Yeah, but the a little backstory is we got I posted an article about the science of hypnosis. And because a lot of my clients, a lot of people listening here, I asked him, I said, do you want to hear more about the woo-woo side of hypnosis? You know, like people think of hypnosis as tarot cards or some other mystical realm or the science. And overwhelmingly, people said they want to hear more about the science. So that's why I wrote an article, did some studies, and now I have one of the experts here on the podcast to describe the science to us. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. Thank you for your invitation. I'm very glad to be here.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yes. And for the listeners, can you pronounce your name correctly? Because I did not want to butcher it.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, as you can listen, I have a strange accent because uh I'm French, and my name is Olivier Benaroche. And uh I just go on what you just said. It's true that for for maybe more than uh 100 years, uh hypnosis uh has been associated with woo-woo uh thoughts. Uh we in some cases could have bring something positive, but rarely, uh obviously. And uh what is really um uh interesting is that uh over the last two decades there have been so much advances in neuroimaging, uh especially with MRI, uh EEG and intracranial recording, that it has profoundly uh transformed our understanding of consciousness itself and how it can be um managed with hypnosis. And so, yes, I think that a lot of patients, especially uh in our field, uh, need to be reassured that uh it's something now that is understood by by medicine and that can be used not for entertaining, but really to and uh uh we just talked about that a few days ago um I met uh a major uh actor in the field that is uh Professor David Spiegel, and he's insisting, and I completely agree with him, that we don't do hypnosis to someone, but we we do hypnosis with someone, and the idea is to raise the the power that is inside, and that's what uh neurosciences now can prove that we are just there to be teachers uh and guides, and the the power is always inside the brain of the other.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. I do want to loop back and talking about Spiegel because I have some questions about him in particular, but let's start with you. So you're in the neuroscience, you're heavy in the science. How did you get involved in hypnosis?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's uh that's a complete journey. Um so my my base um job is dentist.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01

So I I began to to work as a dentist, and after many years of um of work, I of course, uh it's I think it's obvious for everybody, I spotted that there are some difficulties with some patients who can have a very high level of anxiety, right? Uh even to the point that they can become phobic and uh and avoid uh dental uh care. And of course, there are problems about uh pain, that procedural pain or chronic pain, and also some uh troubles that uh you uh have you heard about bruxism when you grind the teeth, or all that? Right, right. All these fields, um, I I have I have not been teached how to to do anything about that in my um my studies of uh dentistry. And so interesting.

SPEAKER_00

I just wanna I'm sorry to interrupt there, because in reading about hypnosis and getting certifications, they say that some dental schools do teach hypnosis. Is that still true?

SPEAKER_01

It's it's new. I mean, it new okay. Maybe for began 10 years ago. Uh no, a little, a little, yeah. In France, uh, it's more than 10 or 15 years. Uh at the time or when I wanted to teach myself uh medical hypnosis, I had only one choice, and there were only one school. Uh it was in Paris at the medical school of Pitié Salpétrier, that historically is linked to the works of Charcot and uh is very famous for that. And uh I began to learn uh medical hypnosis 20 years ago in Paris to have some tools to L to help my dental patients.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. And it's interesting because what you talk about is what got me interested in the science of hypnosis, is I know one of my friends is down in Australia working in hospitals for brain surgery. Instead of injecting the patient with prophypol and keeping them awake, they just hypnotize them. So they have amnesia plus they have no pain while the person is drilling in the skull. So how is that possible? Even as a hypnotist myself, I don't have the confidence to be like, okay, dude, you're not going to feel any of this. You're not even going to know that someone's drilling into your skull right now. So what's the difference between that and a typical like clinical hypnosis?

SPEAKER_01

I think that uh yes, we can have uh a little uh um artificially two uh two categories of hypnosis. We can talk about therapeutic uh hypnosis, which is close to the psycho psychotherapy, and there will be what we call hypnoanalgesia. And uh that's what we use uh as dentists or nurses, uh uh birth givers use that too, and now it's well documented. We we know that uh there are there is a control of the brain over pain that is accessible, uh especially uh in the state of hypnosis, and it's well documented. And the thing that we we really understand is that it's different from the placebo effects. Um, and we know that hypnosis act as a top-down regulation, which means that the um the non-sceptive uh information that is a peripherical, uh let's say uh a tooth pain, uh still arrives to the brain, but the way it is processed can be modified by hypnosis at different levels. It can be modified at the level of intensity, but also at the level of a emotional and affective processing. And uh it's interesting because when you do hypnoanalgesia, it doesn't completely erase the consciousness of what's occurring, but it's like it's something that is is uh uh uh from a far distance to say.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting. So it's almost as if they're witnessing the act, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And being kind of indifferent to what's uh occurring.

SPEAKER_00

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_01

What was interesting is that I had dental patients that had for uh severe allergies, for example, or even some phobias of needle, and uh I could do some dental um care, like a root filling or implantology, even without any chemicals.

SPEAKER_00

That's amazing. Like I'm sure a lot of people listening and watching right now have been to the dentist and have that, even hearing you talk, you know, there's certain things you go into the dental office and you hear the drill in the background and just the machines and everything, even the smell brings it out. But to be able to be like without any chemicals, without any drugs, you're able to negate the pain and the fear.

SPEAKER_01

And as you know, expectation and the the kind of anchors that's uh are represented by smell or by uh by noise, uh, can for some persons that maybe have been traumatized when they were a child, they can raise uh a very high level of uh of pain, even if the the act itself is not that that much painful. And so that's interesting that in different uh specialties like dentistry or nursery, we we can understand that uh there's a lot of emotional factors that are involved in the feeling of of pain, and once you manage the stress, once you manage uh all the associations that can be linked to it, you can really lower and uh help the people feeling very better. Uh I I rely for example of uh a saying of Milton Erickson was talking about pain, and he was saying when we suffer, we suffer three times. We suffer obviously of the pain that is physically present, but we associate it to uh uh the past pains that uh uh are recalled and the future pain that we imagine. And so when we are uh doing hypnosis, you know that we can focus on the present moment, and then if we can avoid a two-thirds of something we don't like, it's it becomes manageable, right?

SPEAKER_00

So I I love that how you can make how you take away two-thirds of it and then manage the current pain. How does one without so you went to Paris to learn this? How does the lay person are there any books out there or people that have videos? If someone wants to learn that type of hypnosis where you can take away pain.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, surely. Um, by the way, uh now in France there are many um deep university diploma of uh of uh medical hypnosis, and um the the first one that was in Paris now I think is quite 30 years old, and they are in every major city uh in France. Where I live in Nice, I was one to uh to make it happen in uh um in the faculty of medicine, and I also participated to create it in the dental uh university. So they are there are uh state schools in in the hospitals and in the university where you can learn that, and then there are different uh private schools, and I have one myself that is called OB OB1 Formation, uh, where I teach uh different approaches of hypnosis and especially uh yes, hypnoanalgesia for the one who want to manage it, um for for their daily uh uh care, and also for um for psychotherapists that have to manage chronic pain because that's um that's a disease in itself.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And I guess that was my follow-up question. So you're there in a dentist office, you're doing this, so what's the next step for you?

SPEAKER_01

Uh I think I already crossed uh an important step that uh four years ago I I sold my dental office. Uh I mean I was doing uh half-time uh dentistry, and I had a lot more uh progressively uh demands about uh uh therapy that I was doing more and more, and then I went to a point that I I really felt that I was I have I had more patience and interest into hypnosis than in dentistry. So uh I I did the shift. Uh I um at this time uh four years ago, I was already involved four years for with teachings uh and conferences and writing books also. So I decided to uh to go 100%, and now I have um uh in my town and next to Nice in Antibes, I have a uh hypnosis uh office, and I uh I teach people uh in France and uh um where I'm I'm um I am asked also. Uh so I have this double uh uh work of uh receiving patients, writing books, and uh making teachings.

SPEAKER_00

And then now we could connect the dots between you mentioned book and seeing Dr. Spiegel. So, what's this latest book of yours?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, uh so uh and also something I want to develop uh is um I think we talked about my my partner is American, she's from the Bay Area, and so I try, as you can hear, to improve my English and to make my my works uh if possible accessible to all English speakers. And uh so, yes, uh, I wrote this book about hypnosis and neurosciences. Uh it's true that I'm not a true neurologist or working in the field of neuroscience directly, but because my my studies were very medical oriented, I always wanted to understand from uh this side and to be able to understand and to explain to others and to find uh how we can explain this process that seems very uh magical for some people. And so I went, I've been very patient and I made a huge research. Uh I read tons of articles and books, and I wanted to write a book that could gather all the information at the same place. I I couldn't find really a book that was focused about neurosciences and hypnosis um specifically, and uh and so uh the project is now to uh to uh finish uh the English translation that will be out in a few days or a few weeks, and that's uh this work that I want to present to the Professor David Pigel at Stanford University.

SPEAKER_00

Excellent. And will the book be available on Amazon or your website? Excellent. And so in in studying and preparing for this book and pulling together the neuroscience of hypnosis, I like it, I like the analogy of it. It's almost like someone's volunteering to be on stage. Like when I grew up, I used to watch his magic shows like David Copperfield, and I would go watch him live. And then part of it is like he has this big buzz all coming down and all this scary stuff. But part of it is you want to understand how it works before you participate. I feel that's the way with hypnosis. Like when the people that are watching that sort of are coming to me, they're like, okay, I've heard this woo-woo. So how does it actually work so I can feel more safe? So when you're studying, what's some of the most profound things that you discovered about how it works in the brain and the neuroscience of it?

SPEAKER_01

The neuroscience uh allowed us for a few uh a few years to understand how consciousness works. And we know that it's um it's not that something that is simple, uh, it's uh uh a full uh network uh with uh information integration, uh, attentional modulation, there are some uh top-down modifications, and we know that um hypnosis uh can uh be used as a tool for neuroscientifics to uh study consciousness, uh it's uh used in this way, but also also uh uh we can understand better how it works. And the thing that with uh neuroimaging we can see in real time uh how the brain can be modified once you do uh hypnosis and diction and specific uh uh specific uh suggestions. Um I would cite there are many, of course, yeah, there are many uh studies that have been done by neuroscientific to uh to study hypnosis. Uh, there is one that is uh for me was kind of mind-blowing. Uh it's a researcher that is Canadian that is called Pierre Rainville. And he did a study with patients uh about about the pain management. So he asked some patient to go into an MRI and he were he was doing uh artificial pain. Uh I think it was like putting the hand in a bucket with ice for 20 minutes, so it can begin very painful at some point. And and he made these patients being hypnotized uh to observe how the pain was uh uh visible into the the brain, something that we can now spot. And we know that the brain is uh coding pain in different manners in different areas of the brain. I mean that the intensity and the affective part of the pain is not coded at the same place in the brain, so we can spot it. And then with this artificial pain, he made to hypnotize patients a different suggestion. And what we we could uh uh watch in real time that when the suggestion that the uh the intensity of the pain could lower, we could so uh we could observe into the brain that the area that was visible was shrinking. And uh on the other hand, when he was making uh a cancellistic suggestion that it was uh it was developed, we could see in real time that the same area were um expanding. So this was that was the formal proof that a suggestion could be observed in real time. That's amazing, yeah. And uh also he did another uh another discovery into the same um research that when he was talking none uh about intensity, but about the the not being bothered, not being scared of the pain, which is the emotional aspect, the intensity in the brain didn't change, but but the other part of the coding that is in the uh anterior cortical uh singular uh will shrink or expand uh uh following what the suggestion was specifically uh influencing, and so that was amazing, not only to see the the action of the suggestion in real time in the brain, but also a very uh specificity of action. And that's interesting that as a hypnotist, it gave me some clues that when we want to help a patient, we don't necessarily have to be too focused on one way to to uh suggest, but have a way to to address different aspects of the trouble and the resolution, so the unconscious mind, as we can say if we talk as Merrick, will will pick the good resource that is available to the patient.

SPEAKER_00

Fascinating. And is there any longitudinal so if you reduce a person's pain in one session, can it reduce over like is it consistent? Like, for instance, in the dentist, they go, you do a session or however you want to call it a hypnosis with them to reduce the pain, okay. The next time they come, will they need to have another session or will they have reduced pain the next time they come?

SPEAKER_01

Uh if it's for um it's for dental uh care, for example, uh it's true that what once they they learn the path to reduce pain, we have to do it uh the next time, but it goes faster and easier. And if we talk about chronic pain, so people that can be bothered for for a long period of time when they are home, the ultimate um tool is to uh to make them learn self-hypnosis. Because of course, these these kind of modifications are not necessarily completely uh permanent if you don't go uh and rehearse it, but there's a lot of work also that has been made by the research uh very great researcher that is called NS Rossi, uh, that showed that it will change neuroplasticity.

SPEAKER_00

That means that uh yeah, thanks to that's that's my follow-up question. Yeah, so go ahead and then I'll we'll dig in neuroplasticity.

SPEAKER_01

And that's the thing that uh uh uh our brain is modifying every day with a new learning and with uh new habits that we can learn. And uh with hypnosis it's it is enhanced and it can be a lot quicker, and then we can also by this way with sessions of hypnosis and self-hypnosis, uh, rewire the brain in some cases.

SPEAKER_00

So I and the reason I'm asking about the neuroplasticity, I love the idea that we can rewire the brain. And I want to also talk about how hypnotism can help, but about the science of neuroplasticity, for instance, I work at a hospital and one of the chief medical doctors there says it's just a fad word, neuroplasticity. And that just irritated me because there's science. We can see it, right? And like how can we measure what is it, the myelin sheaths get thicker? Is that how we measure it? Or how do we know?

SPEAKER_01

So it it's it's something that is very uh effectively very hard to to spot, but uh it's uh we know that it's uh it's a basic uh assumption that uh the way that uh our brain works is with connecting uh neurons, and uh each each time we learn something, we do something uh repetitively, or we build an uh automatism, we have um some uh wiring between neurons, that's not rubo science, that's very very basic. And the thing that with uh with the uh recipients is we can enhance that, and uh there are some some pretty uh uh complicated way uh now to to measure uh at even at epigenetic level that uh hypnosis can uh uh can enhance this process. And uh, if some of our listeners are interested by by that, I really uh recommend to read the the works of uh Ernest Rosses that did an amazing work for decades and going in real uh in real detail of all the neurobiology of uh uh of neuroplasticity, of epigenetic modification during hypnosis, and and how we can be uh something that will enhance somehow uh process that unanther. Again, it's not something that is out of the closet. Uh, everybody uh is able to do that uh by himself. Uh Rossi was saying that the ones who do it good don't go to see therapists because it's uh physiological uh things. Uh he was one of the the main uh researchers to claim that all hypnosis is completely physiological, and he talked about ultra-germ rhythms, which means that we we know now that with the uh psycho uh rhythms that we all go into a hypnoid state every 19 minutes or so.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and all the work also with this called naturalistic hypnosis was just to um to acknowledge that we go through different states of hypnosis of um of consciousness during the day and just allow the connection to occur in a psycho uh corporal uh um mind-body level, uh, and so that's that's what is uh working uh naturally and that we can help with self-hypnosis also.

SPEAKER_00

And you mentioned that word epigenetics in there. What how would you define that for the lay person?

SPEAKER_01

I think the the the way to uh to explain it the the more simply that for example, um we we know that um when we uh we imagine something scary, uh it's the base of a problem that we all know that is anxiety. But when we imagine and we think of something that is very uh that scares us, um we will have kind of the same uh bodily response as we were scared in the present moment by a real danger. So we imagine, or we have been suggested, for example, by the news recently, it works very well, and we feel we feel anger or uh uh or fear. So uh an image, a thought uh will raise a kind of fear, and as we know, uh the um at the end of that we will have some bodily reaction of tension, of uh trembling or whatever that are the results of um adrenaline and cortisol. And the thing that uh that the way epigenetic works, you have something outside that raise uh a different um thought, uh different emotional reaction, and there's a whole chain of reactions that are neuro uh hormonal because it will uh it will at some point uh by neuromediators and hormones go into the cells in the um that will uh make the the the adrenaline and the cortisol in the blood. So the it shows that there's an expression because it's from the cell that that will uh make the the the fabrication of the peptides of the hormones uh are conditioned by by the the way you feel and uh your emotions. So that a chain that comes from an idea to uh uh bodily response that is mediated through the fabrication of uh of um peptides, and that's a whole chain that can be the simpler way to explain uh epigenetics that how where you are, where you feel, uh brings uh something that is uh expressed by the uh the cells uh itself.

SPEAKER_00

Fascinating. And I'm wondering, do mitochondria come into play here? The mitochondria within our cells, do they come into play with this epigenetic process?

SPEAKER_01

I mean the the mitochondria are the way to uh to to give some um some energy to the cell. So yes, I I'm not um uh completely um uh accurate on the biological uh functioning of mitochondria, but yeah, of course, all our environment, all uh of our reactions and our emotions will have some effects on our cells, of course.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Interesting. And then so in your book, you're talking about the science of everything. Do you also give a person how to help themselves? Because you mentioned these cycles where in hypnosis every 19 minutes, and this how can we help with chronic pain? So, do you have practical tools in your book as well?

SPEAKER_01

So uh this is my uh um my uh my third book uh about uh sort of the fundamentals of uh neuroscience and hypnosis. And it it I don't really give uh tools in this one, but my my next book that is now out in France is is called Burn to Be Alive. It's uh a book about the integrative tools to uh uh to be able to cope uh chronic stress and burnout. And of course, I wanted to have uh I wanted to have this book to provide a lot of tools to be used, uh, either if you are a therapist, uh something you can add to your toolbox, other for individuals to have some ways to have some self-hypnosis tools to use every day. And uh I will write after the the first book of neuroscience. Uh, my my purpose is to be able to connect the fundamentals of neuroscience and the understanding of how the it works in the brain for health and disease, to have some understanding of what tools, what protocols will be the most adapted. For for example, uh when we talk about uh addiction, for example, uh maybe I will uh uh make a little exercise later about that. Uh one of uh I think you you spotted that, one of uh the components of uh addiction, uh especially in smoking uh addiction, is that at some point the the smoker uh to be able to go on smoking is is something that begins very early in the in the process. When uh the when young people want to try to smoke, uh they all say to in my office, they all say that they didn't like the first one. That the body didn't like it. And so uh I explained to them that the a process is occurring when they want to force themselves to smoke, to be uh uh maybe integrated uh in the group, that they have to dissociate from their body, they have to uh in some way to to learn not to listen to the warning uh messages to be able to smoke again and uh and keep on. And then after that, they are caught also by the addictive products. But one of the components of addiction is this uh dissociation that uh had been unconsciously uh set, and so when uh we understand that uh it's interesting to propose to these patients to have the possibility of really reassociate to their body, to respect it, to protect it, and this way uh for a lot of people that's one of the ways to get rid of the cigarette because they now uh have a purpose and they uh they reassociate to all the warnings uh that the the body can give them.

SPEAKER_00

Fascinating. And then what is one tool that from that book you have out that's that's the practical what is it called? You said born to be alive? Is that the name of it?

SPEAKER_01

Burn to be alive, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Got it. And then so what's one tool that you can give someone here that maybe they can they can apply for themselves?

SPEAKER_01

The the thing that um for for many years, um, and I am involved also in uh in a collective in France that is called the Journal of Hypnosis and Integral Health, Integral Health Health. Um we decided that we cannot um say that we have the solution for everything, and and hypnosis will be the uh uh sufficient enough. And uh that means that the approach in my book is uh an integrative approach. The idea is that we have to have more rate of success, uh, allow each people to find a combination of approach that can um lower the level of stress and uh have a good prevention for burnout. And that comes from nutrition, that comes from uh uh physical exercise and so on. But one of the slimpest tools I use uh for kind every patient because stress is present in every trouble, uh, is uh to learn people how to breathe correctly. Uh so that that makes uh a shift from the uh what we call the sympathetical uh response to a parasympathetic uh response, that is also something we can uh experience into the state of hypnosis, and that's something that will counterbalance uh stress and anxiety, for example. So learning to brief uh uh and there are some exercises that are very simple. Uh also for people that do panic attacks, for example, we know that the main component of panic attack and uh anxiety is hyperventilation. The fact that uh in this state of panic, we we try to breathe very very fast and to have a lot of uh uh inhale and a very shallow exhale. And so I learned to this patient that they have to learn to make session three times a day for five minutes, uh inspiring by the by the nose uh for three to four seconds, having a little pause, and exhaling by the mouse as if they were uh uh expiring through uh a straw for the for the double of time. So it will be eight seconds, and uh that's one of the tools that are uh the more rapid and efficient. And we also know that that brings very quickly a parasyntipic uh parasympathetic uh response that also allows uh the mind to lower its activity and to shift into uh uh alpha state that is the beginning for also uh self-hypnosis, for example.

SPEAKER_00

That was my going to be my follow-up question because I've definitely heard this not only in hypnotic fields, but that that longer exhale. I've heard that in different types of therapies will use that. And then I was going to say, well, if that's used by all therapies, how why are we labeling that as hypnosis? So you're saying that's the entry point into hypnosis?

SPEAKER_01

What is interesting is that uh yes, uh brief brief works can be a very uh uh very simple uh path to to train to uh towards hypnosis. It's not hypnosis in itself, but uh it's it it can breathe, uh it can lead to that. Uh and it is true that uh either uh I I teach hypoventilation, but there are some uh some therapies uh like uh holotropic breathing, that is a kind of uh of therapies that is more uh um more heavy, uh, can also help people to have uh uh a way to to bring flexibility in their breathing patterns where they are uh rigid and stuck. And uh it's uh in some in some techniques you can use hyperventilation to to go into a modified state of consciousness, and it it has been invented by uh um uh by a therapist that that way uh in uh Palo Alto that was uh Stanislav Groff that invented this technique to substitute the use of LSD. And uh and you could have the same therapeutic uh um results with breathing than with uh uh with LSD. And I I think that uh uh going through the body and and through the way the body uh functions is a good part to go into hypnosis.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, without some of the like with the LSD, you don't know how long that trip is going to last versus hypnosis a little more controllable. Yeah, and is there I've seen one guy also in California using breathing techniques to stimulate DMT and then is that part of what happens with this breathing and into hypnosis thing?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we uh for hypnosis the the the the main uh interest is that it it can uh prepare to go into parasympathic uh uh shift, and uh that's what is uh is uh interesting in this technique.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, and so I'm wondering what is a what are some of the other applications that we can use this for? So we mentioned pain, anxiety. What are some other things that you're seeing in the neuroscience field that we can apply hypnosis for?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I mean neuroscience is just uh a tool to to understand how it works, uh, because we know that empirically uh hypnosis is used for a lot of domains. Uh of course, it's uh effective in uh pain and somatic symptoms, uh, but it's also it's also used in traumas and PTSD. It can be uh used in anxiety and emotional regulation, for example. Uh we took we talked uh earlier about uh addictions and habits. So uh and we can also find the use of um of hypnosis for psychosomatic and functional disorders. Uh might be digestive, uh, for example, uh disorders that are very uh widespread. So uh there's there's a lot of indication of medical hypnosis uh that can be uh rather applied by uh specific caregivers that will use in their field, uh, or by hypnotherapists like like us that can uh uh help uh patients to have a different complementary approach uh to the the traditional one part of the reason my asking too is I I like how all these different uses and I work at the blind center at a veterans hospital, and there's some types of blindness where it's functional blindness, in other words, where the eyes work, the not like nervous intact, the eyes work, but either a trauma or a brain injury can cause the brain to say you no longer see.

SPEAKER_00

My theory is that hypnotists could help that person to see again, to overcome. I don't know, is there neuroplasticity involved, or is there what would make that happen in the brain for them to see again?

SPEAKER_01

Um there's two things to say about that, that uh neuroscientists uh were very interested by this kind of uh of troubles, uh and especially uh neuroscientists that study uh how function uh consciousness. And uh I read some papers of researchers that uh really spotted that these people that didn't have a uh a problem with uh the mechanical of uh of uh of sight, uh when they were uh in some uh in some cases uh presented in they did experiments where they they uh put some obstacles that they couldn't see but they avoided. I don't know if you experimented that.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, and an experiment on this side, so we did the mirroring, you know, how like when you're in front of someone and like you might lean one way or you might lean another way, and the other person mirrors your body language.

SPEAKER_01

So we did that with someone the person is not aware of seeing you, right?

SPEAKER_00

They they in their mind they believe they're blind, yeah. And yet they're mirroring you still, and like you said, you put obstacles in their way, they say they can't see anything, and yet they navigate around the obstacles, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And you know, there's um there's also a special disease. Uh I don't know how to say it in English, but it's when the sight is only uh on one side of the spectrum, so the the people can see what's is on their right, but absolutely not what they're on the left. And it's a very strange disease because these people, when they ask to to draw, for example, a house that is uh full, they will just uh draw the the half of it and say that's all there is.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, fascinating!

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, uh and some researchers did something of interest that they showed to this patient, let's say that they couldn't see the left part of uh uh of what is in front of them, and they showed them two pictures of houses. And the first picture was uh normal houses, house, and the second one was a house where the left part was in fire. And to these patients, uh they had a uh a lot of uh uh uh a numerous of patients who have some statistics to observe. Uh, the majority of the these patients would say, when the question was asked, in which of these two uh uh no, they would say, uh what do you see in front of you? And they would say the two houses are completely the same. Wow. So objectively they say the two houses are the same because they couldn't see the i mean they couldn't see consciously the left of the house. And when they were asked in which of these houses would you like to to live, 90% of them said uh answered the one that they will uh the there will not fire in the uh unconscious side.

SPEAKER_00

That's so bizarre.

SPEAKER_01

So consciously they will say and report that the the two houses were uh completely similar, but when they had to make a choice that implied some kind of uh emotion, they would choose the one that is safe and without knowing why. And so um the reason these researchers were interested because uh the the the conclusion of that is that uh uh it's not that the eye don't function, it's that uh the consciousness avoids some kind of information.

SPEAKER_00

This I love because something is telling them there's danger and safety. And the thing yeah, so what what is that?

SPEAKER_01

I mean that that's one uh that's one theory talking about it could be uh a threat or something that uh uh um make them have this trouble. Uh we know for a long time what we call Hysterical symptoms, you know, that for a reason that most of the time is traumatic, our unconscious mind will decide to make a radical uh decision. Uh can be uh blindness or uh can be also uh immobility of the uh of a leg or arm. Uh and especially if it's uh traumatic, uh it's it's something that uh without any conscious decision has been made by the by the brain, the unconscious brain. Now in neuroscience we know that maybe 90 to 95 percent of our decisions are not are not conscious and they are made by our conscious brain. And uh most researchers uh now claim that uh the conscious is not it's just something that takes account of something that has been already uh decided before. Uh and yes, that's so wild. And with with with hypnosis, yeah, especially if it's um conversion uh uh trauma, we can work on that and help people to overcome this uh emotional block or traumatic uh uh reaction so they can recover uh the full and flexible functioning of their whole consciousness, where they are dissociated and they are uh there are separations that becomes uh of course uh pathologic.

SPEAKER_00

Well, what's driving it behind the scenes? So the person that's looking at the house fire, and consciously they don't see the fire, but unconsciously, or something underneath the programming is saying there's a fire, even though they don't consciously see the fire. So what do you label that as? Is that the unconscious mind? Is it like feeling inside? Is it like uh collective unconscious? Like oh is it a spirit, a soul? Like what's doing the driving, or like um like Young said, uh, maybe there's the the shadow is somewhere. I don't know what is that that's doing the driving.

SPEAKER_01

And the thing that uh the these researchers also observed one thing because they work with the MRI, that when they look at the at the house that is safe, there's no no such reaction in into the brain, but when people that can't see the fire look at the picture, uh there is an activation of the amygdala, which is the zone of the brain that reacts to danger. So there's really uh a very uh rapid uh reaction to uh harmful information, yeah, but it's not relayed uh to consciousness because we know now that uh um to have conscious to be conscious of something is a really uh uh a really specific pattern, a really specific uh uh way of the brain to function, and every time it doesn't, we can say it remains in unconscious, but that doesn't mean that the um the information is not perceived and is not treated and is not uh uh also uh imprinted in memory. We know that there's a lot of memory that we could call implicit memory that uh we don't recall consciously, but still can have an effect, and again implicit memory.

SPEAKER_00

I like that implicit memory. Where does the implicit memory live? Is it in the amygdala?

SPEAKER_01

Uh yes, there's a system between the amygdala and the hippocampus, there are some connections that work by association. The thing that it's a specific kind of memory. Uh, when we have um um an explicit memory, it goes through processes that are more cognitive, that are more uh uh driven by thoughts. Um, but the the implicit memory that connects directly uh the amygdala to the hippocampus is is uh working by association. It means that one trigger will simply activate the the memory and the emotional response without any conscious uh understanding or recall, and that's the way we found people that have phobias. Most of people uh that have phobia they don't understand why. Some have have recall of a trauma, some some don't. It's just because at some point they had uh uh um, for example, a panic attack that was very scary for them, and their brain associated one object or one smell that was present at the same time, and so uh it's so strong that it's uh it's uh wiring uh implicit memory that each time this person will be confronted to the same the same object or the same smell, we'll have a panic attack, so you will try to avoid it, and uh that's a part of sort of uh the this process of implicit memory by association.

SPEAKER_00

And that would help explain because I've seen a lot of people come to me whose symptoms started right around COVID and they don't understand why. I mean wako is just a lot of stuff, and then everyday activity. You could be walking around your house making toast or whatever, drinking your coffee, and then you're like programming that, and then all of a sudden, three years later, you're drinking coffee, making toast, and you're triggered.

SPEAKER_01

You don't know why it could be it could be as simple as that, uh, because you you have just a moment where for a reason or another you have uh something that is very harmful, very dangerous, or emotional uh strong, uh, and is as just associated with what is there. Oh, interesting. It can be uh repetitively, and that uh also when neurosciences have when we understand that we more easily understand uh all the treatment that we can use uh for for treating traumas or phobias uh with a way of calming the amygdala as we re-evoke the trigger. And so the idea that the trigger that is uh avoided or linked to a strong emotional response will then be associated progressively, that's what we call systematic uh exposition, progressive exposition, and and so there will be uh by neuroplasticity a change about this uh association uh process that uh will be uh progressively associated to something that is more calm and uh uh and will make an extension of the of the response.

SPEAKER_00

Which is amazing because then you can it's like reprogramming the trigger without knowing what the trigger is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And we can you uh you you've heard of EMDR. Yeah, that is a kind of uh for me, it's a kind of uh uh just a specific technique of of hypnosis that is used especially for traumas, and uh you uh you uh expose the patient to uh the the trigger to the an image uh of an event or uh or so uh while you uh are in the safety of the therapeutic uh context. That's what is efficient.

SPEAKER_00

And in just a moment, we'll ask well, I usually ask my guests to if you would like to lead the people watching and listening in a little hypnotic gift. And before we do that, is there any message that you want to tell the world?

SPEAKER_01

I didn't think about that. I think that the work that you do uh with your podcast is very important because it's it's a way to to remove the the old um belief that can um uh uh block people to seek some help or to to to use tools that are not only uh physiological but also powerful. And uh yes, what what is important to say here that uh uh we have to remove the the the bad connotation that about hypnosis and that uh um it's it's more a way to regain control. People are uh sometimes are afraid of losing control, and I really think that it's the opposite when uh you are stuck in uh in anxiety, when you are stuck in chronic pain, when you are stuck in in a trauma, you you lose your control when you are stuck in habit. And with hypnosis, you regain control on your body, you regain control on your emotions, and I think that that will be nice that people that can understand that and uh have a way to uh uh to discover with the therapist first, and then by themselves that they have uh uh incredible uh power inside.

SPEAKER_00

I'm gonna steal that. I just wrote it down too. Like that is definitely one of the fears is that they're gonna lose control or that I have control over them, but instead it's giving them the ability to regain the control that they've been seeking. Beautiful. All right, well, yeah, and now um we love to have you do a little hit another gift for everyone, and just as a reminder, anyone that's listening, if you're driving or whatever, just play it safe, you know, make sure that you're safe and just can participate at your own leisure in a safe manner here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, uh, what I would propose is a very uh simple uh tool that I I propose to my patients, and yes, you definitively can do that if you drive. Uh so we begin now. So the idea of this simple exercise is uh that uh just what we talked about, that uh for many troubles that we can see in in our office, people um not only uh lose uh the control of the sometimes on the emotions or on their body, and uh especially with a process that is called dissociation. Uh, it's uh most of the time uh a defense mechanism that can be useful in some cases, but that can drive to a lot of uh of troubles. And we talked about addiction, for example, but it's true also for uh for chronic pain, it's true also for uh uh traumas. And uh one good way to avoid staying into the state of dissociation is being able to do some uh some exercises. Uh, in for example, meditation, when you do uh uh a body scan, it's also a way to do that. When you work on your breathing, you reconnect also to the to this uh physiological um uh feature in a normal way. But I will I will uh propose you to do a very simple exercise that works very well and can be uh also a tool that can be used for managing chronic stress and and so much. The this uh exercise I try to show my hands, is called the warm hands. And I've been taught about that if you are interested, by a wonderful uh psychologist that is in Canada that is called Gaston Brosseau, and that uh I met in France, and he he devised something that is called uh instantaneous hypnosis. I will propose for people there that are interested to experience to use the two hands and as I do to uh put it on the tummy and uh one hand on the other. It's an exercise that requires a little visualization so you can choose rather to close your eyes and focus on the sensation or to uh spot um a single point in front of you if you want to keep the eyes open. And I want you to now simply focus on the area where your two hands touch each other. One hand is on your body feeling the warms, and between the two hands you can feel that there's also a space of warms just allow this moment to focus on this sensation, this difference of temperature, exactly at the point where the two hands touch each other. Maybe you can spot in your in your mind the surface of this heat inside these two hands, in the point where they touch each other. You can imagine that the sensation of comfortable heat is represented by a shape inside the two hands, and you can also choose by yourself a color that represents the quality of this heat. Imagine now that you have the ability to change the color and if you make it more strong, you could feel a little raise in temperature. In the other direction, if you lower the intensity of the colour, you can feel the temperature going a little down. Imagine now that the heat between your two hands begins to grow just to be at the right level for you, where you can really feel and observe this wave of heat as a colored spot very specific way your two hands are touching. And you can just imagine or visualize that uh this energy, this colored energy, we know that heat is a kind of energy that is progressively uh stabilizing and growing just to be exactly as it needed to be present and have all the possibility of your inside unconscious for healing, for harmonizing, and as you do you imagine now that this specific colour that uh energy will begin to visit all your body like two laser beams. See these two laser beams from your the palms of your hands going through your wrist as colored, healing colored, going through your forearms, your elbows, your arms, going up to your shoulders and your neck. Then they can cross and go up to the skull and the brain, down through your spine, vertebra after vertebra, in the front you can go from the lungs, the joy frame, the abdomen, the hips, and of course you allow this healing colour, this this healing energy to take its time to remain and to act as needed wherever it's the more useful. You can reconnect, rebalance, harmonize, or even healing the parts of your body that need it more. You can visualize how this energy is moving through your body, maybe through your brain, reconnecting different parts from left to right, top to bottom, up and down, all the way. You allow this healing energy, this comfortable colour to go at any level, superficial, shallow or deep, even in the deepness of every cell in your body, reconnecting everything together, reconnecting your mind to your body, reconnecting every cell to all along your body, reconnecting your conscious and your unconscious mind, reconnecting to your emotions, to your thoughts, to your sensation as a whole, a unified and integral functioning body at any level. And you just let this healing colour go from the top of your head to the tip of your toes, and you have nothing to do, nothing else to do than spotting where you feel more comfort. It can be at some places a different sensation of temperature, a little tingling or whatever sensation that appears, and you let it be. You let your body solve and resolve in this very connection as a whole, a functioning whole that makes an update here and now erasing unuseful patterns, unuseful habits, maybe some protections that are no longer useful. Imagining that everything is going together. And just be curious to feel in which manner you feel the more comfort and where the change is more effective. It could be that one part of your body that is more strong and more healthy communicate to another and share this learning. It could be that there are a kind of melting that gives you the opportunity the opportunity to be completely one. One with yourself, with your heart, with your mind, with your body, and maybe with the universe. And you have nothing to do, nothing to think, nothing to understand, nowhere to go, no goal to pursue. You just feel you just let the wisest part of yourself do what is needed to bring you in the place you desire. That's right. Maybe this healing colour, this energy is changing moment after moment, and that's right. You do it at your own rhythm. And of course, before ending this exercise, you have to know that this specific power of connection of the unconscious mind that you are experiencing now is something you own forever. So each time you need to reconnect to yourself to the present time. And to feel better, you can do exactly the same. One hand on the other, on your abdomen, feeling the difference of temperature, this heat, spotting the surface and the colour, and letting your imagination visualize the journey of this healing colour through all your body, all your cells, mind, heart, and so on. In a moment I will count to one to five, and that gives an opportunity to know when to finish the exercise, and at the count of five, it will be the signal to simply reopen their eyes if they were closed. And to bring back what is necessary, forget what is not. And just knowing that you've done a new learning that can be useful for many things. It could be for feeling better, it could be to prepare for some performance or whatever. That uh you know you can have access to that because it's yours, it has always been there, and you have now another way to stimulate that. I come to one from one to five. This way you know that you can come back at one-fifth at each count with the one. There we are. You finish what you began, you complete the inside work, two. You feel better and better as you begin to go up and to grow in a waking state again. Three, feeling good and uh revitalized, three and four, ready to open your eyes, and with the five, you can open your eyes and uh move a little bit. I always uh say that it's good to reconnect, turning the head to reconnect to visual input, uh to move the arms and to stretch uh to reconnect to the body, and then we come back to the rest of the day. I hope in uh in good condition now and a wonderful condition.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you so much, Doctor. And it's good now, everyone that's listening, watching can take that, like you're saying, and apply that on their own anytime they need to. Performance or just want to get some help or some healing or whatever they need. They have the tools within themselves. So thank you so much for being here. I will include the link to your book, the English version. By the time this podcast comes out, the English version will be ready. And people can find, of course, we have the French version as well. And so thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you again. It was pleasure also for me. Um, I hope you enjoyed uh as I uh as I did. And uh yes, I will soon uh send you all the links uh about what is uh available, and uh we will uh follow up.

SPEAKER_00

Sounds good, thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you very much.