AWAKEN with Ryan DeJonghe

Building the Hypnotic Horizon and the Future of Practice with Roi Werner

• Ryan DeJonghe, Founder of TranceWell.help • Episode 20

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In this episode of AWAKEN, Ryan DeJonghe connects with Roi Werner, a dynamic force in the international hypnosis community and the visionary behind The Hypnotic Horizon. Roi shares his mission to bridge the gap between different schools of thought, creating a collaborative space where practitioners of all levels can refine their craft. They discuss the importance of "deliberate practice," the evolution of the hypnotic community, and how to stay at the cutting edge of a rapidly changing field.

Key Discussion Points

  • The Vision of Hypnotic Horizon: Roi explains the inspiration behind his platform—a desire to move beyond "silos" and create an open, community-driven space for learning and demonstration.
  • The Power of Deliberate Practice: Why watching a seminar isn't enough. Roi breaks down how real mastery comes from active, repetitive practice and receiving high-quality feedback from peers.
  • Bridging the Traditions: A look at how Roi integrates classical, Ericksonian, and modern rapid-induction techniques into a cohesive, flexible approach.
  • The Online Revolution: How digital platforms have changed the way hypnosis is taught and practiced, and how to maintain "human connection" in a virtual space.
  • Global Collaboration: Roi discusses the upcoming Hypnotic Horizon online conference and the importance of learning from a diverse array of international experts.

Memorable Quotes

"Hypnosis isn't something you 'know'; it's something you practice. The moment you think you've mastered it is the moment you stop growing.""We are building a horizon where every practitioner can see further by standing on the shoulders of the community."

Special Segment: Hypnotic Gift

Stay tuned until the end of the episode for a special hypnotic gift from Roi Werner. He leads a session focused on "Expanding Your Horizon," designed to help you tap into a state of open-mindedness, creativity, and professional (or personal) clarity.

Episode Timestamps

  • 00:00:15 – Introduction of Roi Werner (and the proper pronunciation!)
  • 00:08:40 – The birth of The Hypnotic Horizon: From idea to community
  • 00:19:25 – Why "Deliberate Practice" is the secret to hypnotic mastery
  • 00:32:10 – Breaking down the "Silos": Collaborative vs. Competitive learning
  • 00:45:50 – The future of online hypnosis training and conferences
  • 00:58:15 – Integrating different styles for a "Whole-Mind" approach
  • 01:03:45 – Hypnotic Gift: Expanding Your Internal Horizon
  • 01:09:30 – Final thoughts and how to join the Hypnotic Horizon community

Connect with Roi Werner

Connect with Ryan DeJonghe

If you want to sharpen your own internal focus or experience the transformative power of a session, let's connect:

SPEAKER_02

Welcome everyone to another episode of Awaken with Ryan DeYoung. And of course, we have a wonderful guest, Roy. And I don't want to butcher your name because I always say it wrong. To me, phonetically, it's Warner, but you used how is it properly said, good sir?

SPEAKER_01

It's Werner, but no one outside of Germany will say it like that. So Werner is absolutely fine. Hello, Ryan.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, right. And my name too. Like no one says it right. Even I don't say it right. Like I think it's Diona in the Dutch. Over here, it's De Young. So whatever. It's just a name. So welcome. I'm glad to have you here. My first introduction to you was in the Mike Mandel Hypnosis Academy. They had a week called the Confident Hypnotist. It was a week of like intensive breaking down the strategies to build confidence as a hypnotist. And they had these people come in that were well trained, that had years of hypnosis experience to give their wisdom and guide us. And Roy was one of the ones that was there.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I was like, oh, that's cool. Who is this guy? He's great. And then I saw you had clean language groups, you had storytelling groups, and yeah, you just seem very wise. So it's great to get to know you and have you here.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you very much. I'm I'm honored then. Thank you for your nice, kind words.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Where where did it start, brother? Where did you start picking up hypnosis?

SPEAKER_01

So I my first real I mean like I grew up knowing nothing about hypnosis. And then around somewhere in the mid-30s, I was going through a long period of depression. Surprise, surprise. Yeah, it's original. And one of the things that I did was to go to a CBT process. Through a CBT, it was 10 sessions, and one of these sessions was a hypnotic session. I didn't know anything about it, yet it left a very deep and profound mark on me so much that afterwards I went home. I remember I went home and I started looking where can I learn this thing. But very quickly, I figured like I have to travel far to learn it. And I had a career back then, I was a film director. So it was like, well, I'm not gonna spend so much money and so much time on that thing, and it just sort of like completely went out of my mind. Several years later, I came across NLP totally by accident. Someone in a bar started talking to me about NLP from the point of view of picking up girls, and I was very interested both in picking up girls and also understanding what is this NLP thing. So he introduced me to this world. This is how I came to learn about Richard Bandler. Then I moved to Berlin and I met a hypnotist, and I was like, oh wow, this is so cool. Yet he wasn't he was a normal human being. He also had a job, he was working in Amazon as well, and a hypnotist. And I was like, So you don't need to be a psychologist, you don't need whatever. And he said, No, anyone can do that. And he gave me a book to read, one of the best books I've ever read. By it's called Hypnotherapy by Dave Ellman. And anyone who's into the world of hypnosis and didn't read this book, I highly recommend. I read that book and I was fascinated. I didn't understand most of it. Then he asked me if I want to join him for a weekend of hypnosis in England, in London, with Richard Bandler and Paul McKenna. At that moment, I was like, Richard Bandler is alive? I was sure that he was dead because I only saw old things of him. So I said, Yes, of course. Yes, let's do it. And it was a weekend, I think it took about five minutes into after they gave the introduction, and we started doing exercise, and I was like, This is where I want to be. This is I just felt it that it came as the most natural thing for me. So after that, I studied uh with Stephen Brooks in London and with Bandler as well. But Bendler was mainly NLP, and Stephen Brooks was very, very different, compassionate hypno Ericksonian hypnotherapy. And I also had a teacher named Jos. Both of them were absolutely amazing, and somehow it became what I do in my life 10 years, and already 10 years, and I still absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_02

And you could see for those that are listening when Roy's talking, his face is just lit up with joy, good big smile, like a kid again, like just a kid at Christmas. Like, this is so cool. And I mean you get in goosebumps thinking about you know just the joy that Roy has in doing this, which is a cool. And you mentioned you started with Bandler's book, which is really not Baylor, Elman's book, and then you later discovered the Ericksonian style. Do you have a style that jives with you more or the other?

SPEAKER_01

I am definitely more towards the Ericksonian style. And and this is something Stephen Brooks brought into my life, the the compassionate part of it. And by now, Stephen Brooks, I I think he still is, but definitely for a long time he was a full-pledged monk living in Thailand, and his teaching in Thailand, and his school was in London. Yet a lot of those ideas of Buddhism came into the teachings as well. And Dave Ellman is very direct, and I'm gonna tell you what to do, and you do this, which I respect, and it's very good for some people. Yet for me, my own personality, the way I like to work, and my personal beliefs are they go much better with the Ericksonian, very, very permissive style and opening up options. I think the combination with studying NLP at the same time and really completely changing what I ever thought about language. And it's something that I love. I absolutely love the linguistic part of hypnosis. So that works also fantastic with the Ericksonian language patterns and the the games we can play with that, and the mind fucks we can get with it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. That's a lot of fun. I want to get into that NLP and that the word pattern. So I'm writing it down. Now you mentioned this guy named Brooks. What was his first name?

SPEAKER_01

Stephen Brooks.

SPEAKER_02

Stephen. And then you mentioned how he kind of incorporated Buddhism into the model. And how how does that work? Like I love the idea of Buddhism. I just never looked at it as the hypnosis, but once you mention that word compassion, I feel when you tie compassion into the words, then the words become more powerful. And then so what's your take in the world?

SPEAKER_01

I can say what I took from that, because I don't remember. I mean, the studies was 10 years ago, and for me, I didn't know anything about language, about Buddhism, or about hypnosis, and uh they all came together at the same time. And again, this is after many years of self-depression, a lot of self-negative talk, and for many years of my life thinking that something is wrong with me. When things don't work, I was the one, obviously, it's not only my fault, but it's also I was the one to be blamed. And through this Buddhism and compassionate uh things that I learned is that nobody is broken. Like 99.9 people don't do bad things because they want to do bad things, right? Right. And I believe that even those that will say, I want to do a bad thing, they have their reasons inside of them that still believe that it will be good in a certain way if you take the simple example of a mafia boss. Well, he will protect his family like crazy, because those are the people he trusts, even though he will have no problem killing and doing horrible things to other people, but you don't mess with my family. So he will have also a good thing, but because of his beliefs, his upbringing, whatever it is, and every person has his own story, brought the person to have maybe things that we call them negative or bad or evil. And when you come to any communication, not just hypnotic and not just therapeutic, any kind of interaction with other human beings. If you remember that there is a person there, that whatever happens, he does that because his system believes that this will bring good results for him. And we're all selfish. We are all all selfish, even if we think that we are altruists and we're doing everything for the sake of the universe and the world, it makes us feel good when we do that. This is the selfish part, right? Even the Dalai Lama talks about good selfish or wise selfish versus negative. And the compassion part comes to looking at people and first thing be like, hey, no matter what you bring into this, this is not a place to be judged. I'm not gonna judge you no matter what you will say, even if you surprise me, even if you tell me the most horrible things. Of course, I'm bound by legal laws as well, yet thank God I never had to deal with anything that breaks those laws. Because most people that that come, they they have issues with themselves.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And they think that they're broken, they think that they're wrong, they think that whatever it is, like look, you're not, and and it's okay, and you can blame everyone, it's absolutely fine, no problem. Go ahead, blame eventually. That won't help in anything. So the work is to work with them to take the responsibility for themselves, and this is very aligned with Buddhism as well. That's like your karma is your karma, no matter what happens around, and it's like it's your journey, and the only thing that you can actually work on is what you do regarding your own self, you cannot change others. There's a really nice sentence I saw someplace. Sorry, can't give credit. I don't know who said it first. That it's that you cannot change the people around you, but you can change the people around you.

SPEAKER_02

That is a beautiful saying, right. And the the way it comes to my mind as soon as you said it is as I'm working on myself, once I start loving myself and forgiving myself and releasing the shame and releasing the guilt. And you you just said the word um the blame, right? Once I release the blame I feel lighter. And then when I'm looking, now my eyes feel like they changed. So the people so the because I've healed myself, my eyes have changed. So now people have changed. They they look different because of the work I've done. So that's beautiful, man.

SPEAKER_01

I think also from my own personal journey and working with hundreds of people.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. And it's amazing that that healing light. You you mentioned that in the Buddhism, that that motivation, that selfish motivation, there's like could be good, and and I look at it as like an energy. Like if I help someone, I feel good, and that raises my energy and it motivates me to continue to that path. Like that felt so good. I want to continue to work on myself and help others. And yet it seems like I have this boundless energy on the flip side. When I do things with we'll call it the other selfishness motive. You mentioned like in the past where I've stolen right from a store. And that was like I didn't feel good about it. And then it lowered my vibration. You call it vibration, you call it energy, you call it karma, whatever we call it. It just and it depleted my energy. So I didn't want to keep doing that. I didn't have the energy to keep doing other things. I felt sad and lonely and depressed. So yeah, I just love that that I'm just I'm feeling out what you're saying about this, about that. Yeah, it's a selfish act. And through the selfish act, we help others. Like there's there's a selfish act where we only we help it's it feels small, and then there's a selfish act that feels expanding.

SPEAKER_01

Even it's it's the kind of selfish where you go on a plane and they tell you that in case of emergency, first put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put on anyone else, because that selfishness is what allows you first and foremost to take care of yourself.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And if you don't have the energy to take care of yourself, you will not have energy to work with others or to help really help them.

SPEAKER_02

Right. And when you said plain, at first I thought you were talking about where you sit on the aisle with the the legroom by the emergency exit, right? And that's a selfish, it's more legroom for me. And yet it's also selfish in that you just volunteered to help because you're sitting by the door.

SPEAKER_01

You know, but now it's not selfish. You pay the more you get that yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

These days now, man, these days is crazy. It's like, oh, you want to sit in the middle or the aisle? Okay, and yeah, so I love the Buddhism. Yeah, we're not talking about these planes. The Buddhism, I I love that. What more what more is there? I feel like there's there's something, like maybe a story that comes to mind or something or a lesson or parable.

SPEAKER_01

Oh right, okay. Well, since you you say the word story and I said the word Buddhism, and talking about compassion and self-compassion. So as you as you know, I love stories. I think that since my first book or comic book was written when I was six years old. So this is how far my storytelling days go. Then I've been a film director, that's definitely telling stories. And through Ericsson and others as well, I discovered the amazing, amazing world of storytelling, metaphor stories, the amazing effect they can have as a therapeutical thing. And I have a fairly short story which I really, really like, and it's about truth. Because we believe, many of us at least, believe that we know what truth is until we actually face it. Right? And there are many truths that we don't want to hear often about ourselves, you know, that there's a human, very strange human conditioning where a person that has negative thoughts about himself, I mean, it's okay if I will call myself stupid, right? Or if I will say I'm ugly, or whatever it is. Yet if someone else says that to me, this is unacceptable, it's hurting, it's painful. So take uh all right, like if you think it about yourself, why wouldn't others, right? But you don't want that to hear that. So anyway. This story is about a person who, like many other people in stories, had everything a man could wish for. He had a nice family, a supportive wife, fantastic kids. He had a good job, he made good money, but he was very respectable in the community, but yet something was always missing, that it was an uncertainty that he couldn't really find peace. And he was always wondering if there's more and he wanted to know the truth. One day after talking about it again, his wise wife told him that my dear husband, Maybe you should go out there and seek the truth. And he was very surprised. Will you let me go? And she's like, Yes, this haunts you please take the time. Go and look for truth. Whenever you ready come back, we'll be here and we'll be okay. And so the man with nothing more than a hat, a backpack, and a walking stick, left the house in search of truth. And he walked through villages and he walked through cities. He walked through mountains and he walked through forests. He met many people that claim to know truth. But none of them was absolutely certain, and none of them knew exactly where to find it. And so he continued over summers and springs, over winters and one day as he arrived to a mountain, he saw a cave and something. He should visit that cave and as he came across the cave opening, inside he saw a very old woman sitting by the fire and she was wrinkled and she was withered, her hair was matted, and her teeth were crooked, and his first instinct was to run away from there yet she saw him. And when she saw him, she looked at him and with a wrinkled withered finger beckoned him to come closer. He didn't know what to do. And she told him to come here. And when she spoke the voice of her son was as clear as church bands. And at that moment he knew that he found the truth. And so the man stayed with the truth for a year and a day. And after that time he knew it's time to go back. And just before he departed, he told her, My dear truth, you have taught me beyond anything that anyone can ever learn. You gave me knowledge that cannot be found in books or in scriptures or anywhere apart from you. I know I can never, ever repay you. Yet if there is anything that I can do for you, please let me know and I will do it. The truth looked at him for a moment and told him when you go out there and you tell people about me, tell them that I am young and beautiful. Only when we we are willing to accept it as it is, we can start changing it.

SPEAKER_02

What do you feel is the ultimate truth?

SPEAKER_01

Okay, okay, all right, okay. Yeah, I believe, I don't think, I believe that the ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. It's funny because I was reading of all things about metaphysics this morning and about the observing and how we have this field of energy, and then once we observe it, it becomes the shape that we want it to become. When it's not observed, it could be anything, um just anything.

SPEAKER_01

Well, Schrdinger's from Schrdinger's cat or did a uh split sleet exp experiment.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Truth is not universal. Truth is something it's experiential. So we have facts. And what we call truth, or more let's say what we call reality, is not the facts, but it is how we react to those facts. You know, truth is an experience. I mean, you have things that we call source of truth, like law books, right? For if you have a community, if you have a society, well, somebody somebody makes up the law. Right now, we all we can all agree that there is something like gravity, and because that applies to no matter what you are, an object, uh a creature, a particle, gravity works on you. So that's a lot, all right? Yet we truly don't know in this like endless infinite universe, right? Right that it doesn't work the same way everywhere, so we can't say that this is that's it. Like that's we have experiences, yeah. And experiences are different for each and every person.

SPEAKER_02

Regarding the law, I do want to touch on that experience regarding the law, like gravity, and then you hear these stories and you want to believe it, whether it's Luke Skywalker lifting a Tywing out of the swamp, you know, that seems like, oh man, I wish that were true, right? But so many of us say, no, gravity, duh.

SPEAKER_01

And then and then but the it doesn't mean that but but it doesn't mean that Luke Skywalker doesn't do something, he doesn't negate gravity. I mean you look at Luke Skywalker and you're like, wow, I wish I would have this power, but if you go to the 1850, people look at the bird and say, Wow, I wish I had that power. Yeah, and they found ways to fly. Right. So you you learn to work with it. I don't know, the force might work, and maybe in Tatuan there is no gravity. I I I really don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and then you hear stories of, and it's not just like in the Catholics, every saint has to have a miracle, and you some saints were reported as floating, and you hear the Buddhist monks and stories of Buddhist monks. You hear some Buddhist monks that reported leviting. I don't know if they're true. I want to believe, but that goes up to the infinite possibility. Like maybe their mind was like, I see this experience, you're talking about experience, this experience which I'm having as a choice. And that's my follow-up question with your experience. If we're having an experience in this infinite truth, where do we have agency? Where do we have it? We make up the laws for our own experience. Like we have the societal laws like gravity. Yeah. So choice. That's where it comes down to. Like, I feel like in hypnosis, when we work with a client in compassion, we tell them that you now you could accept this blame you've given yourself as truth, or you could let it go and look for another truth. So that's a choice in their experience of life.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I wouldn't I don't I don't see it exactly this way because some people, and again, I am not here to challenge anyone's beliefs. I I respect and accept them all. I can only talk about my personal experiences for my own work and working with people, and I believe that we do not we don't have the possibility to delete things from the system. We can bring new information, right? So when most of us as human beings, we work on automatics, and those automatics, you know, they're they're a little bit like laws that society has created when the society was founded, which for most societies is several hundred years ago, or I mean it's like we're still even the fact that we use like the metric system versus the non-like in all these kind of things, it's possible to reunite them and have like one system that will apply to everyone, but because so much time has passed and and societies got so used to it, and the systems got used to it, and to change that it's too much of a headache. Let's not do that. It's possible, but let's not do that. And we as human beings, we operate in a very similar manner, or let's say that societies operate in a very similar similar manner as individuals. So we create identities, we create beliefs based on programming, and there is no way around it. There is absolutely no way around it because even if you grow up by yourself in a jungle, you will be programmed by the weather and the animals and stuff. Because programming is taking data and creating functions that react to that data. That's programming. So I'm not saying, oh yeah, society is programming, it is self-programming, outside programming, whatever it is, yet we create these things. Most of them, or the basis of them, is that when we are very young, when our toolbox is very, very limited, our way to express, to understand is very, very limited, yet we create the fundamental part of our identity. And let's say one thing which I work a lot with people because that was my own personal journey, and most people have that what I call the inner courtroom, you know, the one that tells you how bad you are, what you're doing wrong, and da da da and you hit yourself on the head because yeah, that helps. Great, fantastic. But the thing is that you are being your system is being run by a six-year-old judge that doesn't understand much except that if you will do something that will cause others not to like you, bad thing. Don't do that. And because when we are kids, there's absolutely, for most people, most kids, there's absolutely no point even to defend yourself because no one will really take you seriously or listen to you, or most of the cases don't even ask you what made you, and even if they will, you don't have the ability to express yourself in an understandable manner. Maybe you don't even have the tools to understand what made you do something, so we don't build a self-defense mechanism. I mean, even in the judging uh system of society, until you're 18, you have to have someone that you cannot represent yourself. You're not good enough to represent yourself. Yet, as a person, we never get to be 18 anymore and be like, okay, now I need to call back my inner defense. And when I blame myself, I'm gonna say, Whoa, wait, let's see what's happening here. What am I being blamed for? What did I do wrong? We just automatically allow this courtroom to happen in the background, and then we get the verdict. We're not ever asked to join, to defend, to explain, or anything. We get the verdict and then we start to explain. Wait, but I should have done, I didn't do it. Doesn't help, the verdict has been set. Now there is no way to make a person forget that he had this kind of system. And you cannot say, okay, now let's delete the system. What you can say, how about we build a new system? How about we send them on vacation? We cannot kill them, we cannot eliminate them, we cannot erase them. They're part of you. It's just like no matter who you are, if you ever dated all those people that you dated, no matter how much you love them or not, they're still part of you, and you know well enough that you dated them. You might have forgotten. Yeah, but you but if someone will remind you, like, oh right, wow, yes, I dated this woman many years ago, it was horrible. Okay. But the knowledge is there. We cannot take out knowledge. What we can is to train the system, and you can call the system the subconscious, the unconscious, the system, the higher self, the lower self. I don't care about the names. For me, it's a system, and you can train it to change the automat by giving it new things to do, right? And then actively train it to use a new thing. And this is very much something that many people might relate to that, but let's say, as an example, you have if you have an iPhone, and for whatever reason you change to Android or Google Phone, or vice versa, or you have a car from this model, and now you you know you decide to change something because you absolutely believe that this will be beneficial. And you get the new thing, and all of a sudden, no matter how you know that that new thing is better, more advanced, it may be it was also very expensive, yet it's different. And in the beginning, it's like, where is that button that I'm so used to? Why it's not here, and it drives you crazy, and then there are moments, you know what, maybe I should just get back to what I know, even though it's not as good, even though I want to improve, it's so much easier to get back to what we know because we know it. And that's why changes often take time and practice. It's not like, all right, here we go, we just gave you an idea for new things. You walk out the door, and that's it. It's done. There are cases where this is the case when people are extremely ready, or the change has it doesn't require this kind of training. Right. For many emotional issues, you have to train the system, you have to practice it, you have to give it time and compassion, and not to judge yourself when it doesn't work, because it will have difficulties in the beginning for most of us.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right. I I love how you highlighted about the fact we can't delete it. I feel the power of hypnosis is giving the person the ability to choose what to focus on, the attention. They could focus on I dated someone that hurt me in the past, or they can focus on what area is it I want to go in the future. They have a choice to focus their attention.

SPEAKER_01

Quick fantastic Buddhist story. There we go. Yeah, we go about the two monks that walk in the forest, an older monk, a younger monk, and they come to the river where they see a young lady sitting there crying. The old monk asks her, My lady, are you okay? And she said, No, I have to cross the river, but it's flooded now. I don't know how to swim, I can't cross the river, I don't know what to do. The old monk looks at him and says, Why don't you climb on my back and we'll take you across the river? The young monk look at him. He doesn't say a thing. Okay, they cross the river, he puts her down, wishes her all the best. She's like, Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. And they continue on the way. After several hours, the old monk tells the young monk, just what do you want to say? Stop with that. I can feel that energy. It's like his young monk tells him, How could you do that? And could I do what? You know, we are not allowed to talk or touch women. You spoke with her and then you took her on your back over the river. The old monk looks at him and he tells, Well, I put her down hours ago. It seems like you are still carrying her.

SPEAKER_02

What's funny and serendipitous about this is I was just thinking about that story yesterday. It's funny how the universe works like that. And then going back to Buddhism and selfishness, the thing I thought of when you're talking about the old monk, he had that woman on his shoulders, and that probably felt good. It wasn't a selfish act to help her. It probably felt good.

SPEAKER_01

But that's because you choose to imagine that woman is a nice looking woman. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02

It doesn't matter if you're never allowed to touch a woman. Yeah, maybe it didn't, maybe it didn't.

SPEAKER_01

And that is the beauty of the mind.

SPEAKER_02

Or like look at Jesus, for instance, where at the end, before he's getting crucified, Mary Magdalene poured oil over him and rubbed her hair all over his body. Like, dude, I don't care who you are, and in what man, whether you're Jesus, the incarnate of God, that's gotta feel good, man.

SPEAKER_01

Again, this is your belief. Right. That I I assure you that you will find people that will say that doesn't sound good or feels good to me. Because right, we are so varied.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And and and you just remind me something I thought about actually this morning, absolutely not planning.

SPEAKER_02

Isn't that weird?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, very weird. Because I thought about the fact that it is so easy for us to see with our eyes that people are very different. We're different colors, we're different shapes, we're different sizes, we're so, so different. It's very easy for us with our ears to know that people sound different. It's very easy to for us to smell that people smell different and to touch and know that people feel different. Everything that is processed with our senses is easily accepted as different. Yet, whenever we think about thoughts, beliefs, we tend to think that if I think like that, if I believe that everybody does.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, and it's interesting because even the way I say it would feel good, other people might feel good in a different way. Maybe, like in the case of Jesus, he feels good that he fulfilled what he set out to do. This was like a sign that he's on the right path, or maybe he feels good that he's just in the presence of people that he loves, you know. Or it could be essential, it feels good on the like this on the skin. Different different people some people don't like oil, you know. Right, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, some people don't like hair, some people don't like women. Everything is possible, Ryan. Everything is possible.

SPEAKER_02

And it's it's funny, you talk about how we experience again this experience. The truth is the experience, and we use it through our senses. And I like what Ronda says, where at 12 he used a clock analogy at 12 o'clock is where you feel one with God. Everyone feels the same, everyone is tied together, we're all connected. At 12:01, we start singing he's fat, he's skinny, he's tall, he's short. Oh, that music is no good, that music is good. That duality, man. But let's go to selfishness just for a moment. And so you are putting on this free conference, hypnotic conference, hypnotic horizons. And to me, as an outsider, I see it as a selfless act. So you're doing it's free. You're you're paying for the web hosting, you're paying to put this on for other people. You're just paying with your time. You've built this amazing system, you're emailing, you're doing these interviews, you're doing a lot of work daily. I see that as selfless. You just want people to feel good, to come together as a community, to learn from one another, to encourage one another, and it's free for everyone but you. So what are you like what's going on? That seems self selfless to me.

SPEAKER_01

And for me, it's very simple. It it makes me feel good because. I enjoy sharing knowledge. I enjoy learning. I meet amazing people through this journey. My dream is to build a community which is not a community that I am running. I really I want to be part of a community. Okay, let's say that I live a fairly secluded life. Guess most people have no clue that I live on a small island in Thailand. And there are not many people here. And it's a choice that I made, and I make that choice every single day. Yet every choice we make has a price. And it's a price I'm willing to pay, and that price is that I don't have a lot of social interaction. And I want to. I really want to, and I want to be part of a community, and I want to be part of a community that runs in the way I believe a community can succeed and be open. And that is like an open thing. It's not a community which is based on money, it's a community that is built on sharing. For those who know a bit about hypnosis, here I am opening an estate loop where I was once in the Burning Man. And if you've ever been to Burning Man, then Burning Man is no money. And it was all about barter, and it was absolutely amazing. It was incredible. For 10 days, everyone was so nice, and everyone was so exchanging, and nobody is like, hey, wait, you gave me this, uh, that's not worth as much as this. Everything was just like fantastic. And then Burning Man ended, and there was a huge line to go out of there, and you go in your car and you start driving, and you're immediately stuck in a huge traffic jam. And 10 meters after you go out of the gate of the Burning Man, people start to honk and scream and curse.

SPEAKER_02

How can that happen? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I I I don't know. And unfortunately, there are communities there that are very, very good, yet they believe that okay, it's like that they always have heads of community that this is the school, and this is the only thing that we are praising here or working according to. And if you if you're not part of us, then please keep your thoughts to yourself. I I respect that, and most of them because they work on business and they have different agendas, and it's absolutely fine. And that's why I'm like, well, if I want to realize a dream that I have, I have three options. A to wait until someone else realizes it, B to give up my dream, C to make it myself. So I chose to do it myself.

SPEAKER_02

Here we are.

SPEAKER_01

Here we are. Yes, it's a lot of work, it's an amazing journey, and it is very selfish because I want to have a community of people that I will enjoy be around and share with them my life's journey.

SPEAKER_02

I love it, brother. And when you say when you say community, the word that comes to my head is tribe. Is it possible that like a tribe of it could be anything, believers like believer in this, like we believe in community? It could be a tribe, I guess.

SPEAKER_01

Can be anything, I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know what defines a tribe.

SPEAKER_02

I guess the question that bubbles up is does every community need a leader, or can a community exist? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

You should ask uh Jovan Harari about this. Probably it's like according to his books. You can have a community without rules and leaders up to I think up to like 300 people or something like that, and after that, you have to have something that will arrange it. System, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Just like our bodies are systems, so are these communities or systems, and something kind of has to govern the system.

SPEAKER_01

So I I really I've let's say that if that this community will ever need a governor, it will not be me. I can assure you that I am not that's not what I'm looking for. I love to build things, I love to share things, and then I just love giving. And that's selfish. That's also selfish because for me, giving makes me feel good, right to me. You know, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02

There's some kind of you mentioned these laws, there's it feels like there's a universal law in giving. Like you can't in in the Christian realm, we said you can't outgive God, and I feel there's a universal application to that. Like the more I give, the more I get back. Maybe not from like if I'm giving to a person, I'm getting it back in some other way.

SPEAKER_01

The question is, are you able to see that? Because there are I think that there are times in life where even I I feel that I give so much, and there are times that I don't feel that I get back, or people don't appreciate it, and things like that, and then can that since I am still a human being, uh can very easily trigger frustration, uh negative thoughts, um accounting.

SPEAKER_02

Accounting, that's a great word for it. Accounting, yeah, because for instance, I could say I put you mentioned to me before in a previous conversation about the movie PK. And you're speaking of accounting, and in there is this movie for those that haven't seen it, it's about it's a Bollywood film where this guy amazing film where this guy he comes from another planet and visits Earth. He knows nothing about Earth or the laws that earlier was talking about before, societal laws. And he just observes. And one of the things he observes is people go to God for these miracles and blessings. And then so he's like, Well, I need to get this device back to call my spaceship. And he and so he's like, Okay, God, he goes up to the offering and puts in money and then puts on his hands, okay, where's this device that I lost? And then it doesn't show up. And he's like, Well, forget that accounting. I gave God this money, where's my blessing? So he's like, I didn't get my blessing. So he goes into the offering with a trash picker and then like stabs his money out of the offering basket and gets his money back. It's like, I want a refund.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly. There is, I know I've heard, I don't know, I've heard once that I think it's in Africa, there is a tribe that their relationship with the gods is very, very different from what most humanity is, because for them the gods are supposed to serve them. So if they don't get what is needed, like rain and things, whatever, they go and they shout at the gods, and they're like, You better fix this now, or things like that. Then alone, please, please, please give me the other way around.

SPEAKER_02

So I like that a lot because I feel that's in prayer, that's the one thing that we're missing, even in like hypnosis too, whatever you want to call this thing, prayer is emotion. I feel that's how we influence the universe is through emotion. And you mentioned before that accounting and how people don't notice that the universe is giving them back. I feel the missing ingredient there is that word gratitude. That's a superpower. Because once you start being grateful for the air you breathe, then you start noticing all these blessings coming back to you. The more you're gracious to everything around you, the more you notice more abundance is coming in.

SPEAKER_01

It is very difficult to be grateful for things that are taken for granted.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

One of the first thing we are taking for granted is the fact that we wake up in the morning because not everybody does. So, yes, it's accounting. It's not we don't appreciate necessarily all those things like fresh air, food, roof, toilet.

SPEAKER_02

The experience, the experience, experiences, whatever, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean it's like the only time we start to appreciate things that we're so used to is when there's the threat of them going away. Yet let's not get into a philosophical idea of the thing. Yeah, that could go that could go deep.

SPEAKER_02

And when you when you're talking about waking up with the gratitude, and it's hard to do, yes. Just like and and when I wrote down that word noticing and accounting, I also wrote down dreams. For instance, we can go a long time without remembering our dreams. Yet once we start the practice of setting the intention of I'm going to write my dream down as soon as I wake up from the dream, then you start noticing more dreams.

SPEAKER_01

And then I wonder if you've never practice ever, so I cannot say that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, back to the gratitude, it makes me think about if we begin, I would love to see a study. Just a study, like you could call it what cancer patients, you could do it with whatever study you want to do, just some kind of marker of the humans. You can even do it for like sugar levels or cortisol levels. Of one group that gets up and just says thank you every morning. Just takes a second to say thank you and do it for like 30 days and see how that group compares to the other group that doesn't.

SPEAKER_01

Well, the the I know that the Jews have a prayer every morning. Thank you for thanking for waking up. So you can check it with Orthodox or religious Jews. I don't know about Muslims or Christians, their prayers, so maybe they also have that. I don't know. But I think that also for many many religious people for many of them, not all not all of them, please. I'm not making a generalization, but the question is like there's a big difference between people that pray with intention versus praying with uh just because they're used to it and they're saying it because it needs to be said, not because they truly have gratefulness or gratitude or whatever.

SPEAKER_02

For some reason, when you said needs to be said, it popped in my head an interview with Shia LeBo. Is that how you say his name? I don't know, the actor. And he he says, Let's pray to the interviewer. And he said, What you do is you just sit there in silence and just wait till that noise settles down in your brain, and then something comes up from that you don't expect. He says, And they're reminds Yeah, it sounds like hypnosis, and it sounds like what the the Quakers do, the the brothers sit in a circle. This is their church service on Sunday. They all sit in a circle in silence, and only when they think God is saying something to them do they open their mouth. And that's their service. And it does, it sounds like hypnosis, like something else is that another little voice is coming from somewhere. I don't know where it comes from.

SPEAKER_01

Meaning is I don't even know where my thoughts are coming from.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Well, speaking of gratitude, thank you for all that you do, not just with Hypnotic Horizons, but also you have a clean language group that you do, and you're always coming up with other ways to serve people and help people. So for that, I am deeply in gratitude to you. Pleasure. Before we go, sir, is there anything that you might that bubbles up to your mind when you think about this moment right here that you would like the whole world to know? Is there a message that comes to you?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, of course. Hypnotic Horizon. So so this is not a sales speech because I'm not selling anything, because it's free, right? Right. Hypnotic Horizon is a conference happening soon, on April 25, 26 of 2026. I don't know when people see this interview. And the goal of this conference is really to share knowledge. We have 24 presenters. Most of them is what I call the unheard voices of the world of hypnosis. Most of them are not people that we know or that are known in the industry. These people are coming also voluntarily, nobody's getting paid to share their experiences, knowledge that they found by themselves, things that they went through and they feel are worth sharing. As I conducted interviews with 19 of them already, it's fascinating. They're really, really, really interesting people, and it sounds like very interesting presentations. I believe that it goes beyond the world of hypnosis. I think it can be applicable to so many other modalities and relationships, human interactions, and I think that there's something for anyone to learn or to benefit, let's call it. Even if you don't afterwards practice it, it just you add something to your toolbox, maybe a new perspective, maybe a new thought, maybe an idea that you never know. And this is a little bit like accounting. We don't know how long a process takes. So we can hear an idea now, and in five years it will manifest itself. Don't know. So here it is: an invitation for everyone. If you haven't registered yet, just go to hypnotichorizon.com and it takes a minute to register. If you have registered, we would really love to see you there joining us, not just register and forget about that, because this is the fuel of the presenters to have people. The dream is to build this as a community where different people will offer different activities. We have a Facebook group, Hypnotic Horizon, where we already have some activities. Everyone is welcome. We have practice uh sessions inspired by you, Ryan. The Trump's junkies, you have started that, and you gave us permission to use the name. So where we just practice, because I believe that we can never have enough practice. There is a really nice documentary about uh uh Jordan, Michael Jordan, who was on Netflix, maybe still is, where he told that the better he got, the more he practiced. Yeah, because especially with something like hypnosis, there's by far so many different ways and so many different things that you can do with hypnosis that we will never know all of them. So you can always hone your skills and practice, and also another interesting thing about practice practice has two meanings. Just like you can practice to learn the piano, and you can practice medicine when you are a doctor. So it doesn't matter if you've been doing hypnosis for 50 years, you're still practicing hypnosis, right? So you can join uh and and lead the younger generation, you can give feedback ideas, you can demonstrate. It's really an open place for open minds and open hearts, and everyone is invited. So that's my sales speech.

SPEAKER_02

That's beautiful, man. I'll see you there. It's gonna be a great time. And thank you again for your time here on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01

Ryan, thank you so much for having me here. And and I wish everyone just remember that you are as good as you are, and it's a gift to be alive, and one day we will not be alive. So let's use it while we can, and if we can do it peacefully, it's even better.