Simon Bartholome: Consciousness, Non-Duality, and the Illusion You Never Really Lost

In this episode of AWAKEN, Ryan sits down with Simon Bartholome — a quietly profound German thinker, writer, and longtime student of non-dual spirituality who Ryan first discovered through his Facebook page, where nearly every post distills the teachings of Ramana Maharshi, Eckhart Tolle, Rupert Spira, Osho, and others into something clean, universal, and free from religious baggage. Simon lives in Hirschbeck, Germany, surrounded by soccer posters, and is about as regular a guy as someone who casually talks about the nature of consciousness for an hour can be.

The conversation moves from Bruce Lee and Triceratops boxing matches to Sanskrit, Charlie Brown and Lucy, Michael Jackson, near-death experiences, the difference between Ramana Maharshi and Neem Karoli Baba, why Christian theology accidentally puts God on a pedestal instead of pointing you inward, and why Simon thinks the word consciousness is more spiritually useful than God — because it carries no conceptual baggage and nobody puts up their shield when they hear it.

Simon's central thread is disarmingly simple: you are not the thoughts, not the emotions, not the body — those are all objects appearing in awareness. What you actually are is the awareness itself. And that awareness, your true nature, has never been afraid, has never been separate, and has never really been lost. The path home is just uncovering what was always there — removing the conditioning, not acquiring anything new.

Ryan shares his near-death experience. Simon talks about Ramana Maharshi surviving cancer surgery without anesthesia. They explore why 95-99% of our fears are about things that never actually happen, why joy and love aren't the opposite of fear but rather what remains when fear is seen through, and what it means that even hate — properly understood — is an expression of love.

Then Ryan thinks he forgot to hit record. Simon laughs. Everything is fine. They roll with it.

This one is for the quietly curious — people who sense there's something underneath all the noise but haven't found words for it yet. Simon is excellent at finding the words.

Three quotes from Simon worth writing down:

"Fear is just a thought. It is impossible to be afraid without thoughts. So your deeper, true self is always inherently free from fear."

"95 to 99% of our fears refer to something that is not really there. In most cases, that which we are afraid of never really happens."

"You are nothing special. You are just the infinity — that which is."

Connect with Simon Bartholome: Facebook: facebook.com/simon.bartholome 

Simon posts daily in English and German — quotes, reflections, and excerpts from spiritual teachers across traditions Books: Currently in German only, available on Amazon.de — two more in progress (one on Bruce Lee, one on animals). English translations are being considered for the future. Search "Simon Bartholome" on Amazon.de to find his current titles.

Connect with Ryan DeJonghe / TranceWell: Website: trancewell.help Email: ryan@trancewell.help

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hello, friends. Again, I'm so happy that you're here. And in case you're wondering if I'm talking to you, you think I'm talking to someone else? No, I'm talking to you. Thank you. The one that's listening to this or watching this right now, thank you for being here. And because of your continued coming and listening, we continue to bring great guests. And today we have Mr. Simon. Oh, can you say it Bart Bartlomet? Is that how we say it?

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Yes, exactly. Bartolomet.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Okay, cool. Cool. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's funny. My last name is is Dutch. My grandfather's from Belgium. And then we pronounce it totally different here in the States. So in my last name in over there in Belgium, they would say De Yone. And here in the States, they say De Young, like young and old. So who knows? Anyhow, so let's talk about you, sir. I came across you through the wonderful Facebook algorithm. And almost every day you're posting these posts about consciousness and awareness and oneness and non-duality. And I'm like, well, this is a cool cat. So when when did you start posting all of this? Like what was the change for you?

SPEAKER_01 1:21

If I remember correctly, I think it was in 2019 that I started posting on a regular basis. Yeah. And um mostly it was um seen by my German friends because originally I came on Facebook to connect with German friends because we live in different cities, like everybody does, and uh somehow it was shared more and more times. And I was very surprised. Uh I've never seen this coming. And uh yeah, now there are followers all over the world of this profile, um, which shows me how um how great the thirst and the hunger for this spiritual wisdom is throughout the whole world.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

I love how you say the sp this profile. You didn't say they're following you, you said they're following this profile. Do you identify that? Like, this is not who you are, this is just something that you do. Is that yeah?

SPEAKER_01 2:25

It started as a personal profile to connect with friends 10 years ago or something, but now it it's not about me, obviously. So there are still a few profile pics showing me, but that's all. Uh, what whatever I post is um universal, never personal. Whatever I post, you could say that um the followers follow the spiritual teachers whose wisdom I share, but they are not really following me because the profile isn't about me, you know. I'm I'm never sharing personal things, I'm not uploading what I what I'm eating right now or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Yeah, yeah, I it's it is interesting because, like you said, you have some of you on there, and one picture that stands out to me is it's like you having a boxing match with this dinosaur, and it's like it's you know, and it is very symbolic. I forget the quote you said under it, you quoted someone else, and it was again about separation. Like when we see each other as different and not as one, it might be scary. I think that's where a lot of fear comes. Would you say that fear comes from separation and duality?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

I think that picture you're referring to is combined with a quote by Bruce Lee saying that you will not be afraid anymore when you realize that separation is an illusion, that you are one with everything, that there's just one self, one life, and realizing that you will lose all fear. But I have to say, if that triceratops, that dinosaur would have been alive on that picture, I wouldn't have challenged it for a boxing match.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Well, well, I wonder, yeah, it's it's funny because when we talk about the spirituality, and you're like, we think that you know, people might see spiritual people as living in the clouds and impenetrable, like bulletproof, and yet we're human and flesh too. Like, so we get scared too. We you know, it's like Einstein, I think, said it's a persistent illusion. Like this this duality. Like, I wake up in the morning, uh, all of a sudden I'm back in my body.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I think it there are actually exceptions. A few people will lose all fear, they are they can't be afraid anymore. Like, I don't know, Ramana Mahashi probably, but that's an exception, and I I'm certainly not one of them. I'm I'm just I'm just a regular guy. It's possible to to um how do you say to make someone afraid, to make me afraid.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Triceratops would succeed.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Yeah. Yeah. And then I'm thinking of the movie How to Train Your Dragon, right? And then there's something about where have you seen the movie?

SPEAKER_02 4:58

No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Okay, so there's this the How to Train Your Dragon.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Never heard of it.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

So they have a both uh maybe I know the German title, it's always different, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Oh, maybe, maybe. It's based off of these people kind of like the Vikings, and then there's these dragons that fly around, and the Vikings are always fighting the dragons, and the dragons are scary. And then there's this the kid of the chief, he's all skinny and weak and clumsy. And then one time he confronts this dragon and he just put his hand up like this to the dragon, and the dragon just kind of settled down. And there's something about, you know, and you mentioned some other people might not be afraid, like some of these great spiritual leaders. Do you think that's possible for us to be able to trust our intuition enough and know that we're the same enough that if there were triceratops, you'd be able to just put your hand out and have it lie down so you can just pet the triceratops?

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Yes, I see people like Ramana Mahashi, the very popular sages. I do see them as um manifestations of our potential. They show what's possible for a human being, and whatever they can do and the however way they live is possible for for us too, because that's what they point to, and in each possibility, they're all like Ramana, he always says, there's just one self, and what I have done is possible for you. Realizing the immortal inside yourself, the consciousness that never dies, that can never be touched by any experience. And have if you realize that you will lose all fear, if you are established in that completely, it can it can be a progress in most cases. In the case of Ramana Mahashi, it happened very suddenly. But whatever is possible to him is possible to everybody because we are the same essentially. That's what he himself himself says.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yeah, that's that's a great point. And then how do we get there?

SPEAKER_01 7:03

You say sometimes it's a process, sometimes, like for him, it it was more in 99% of all cases, it's a process, so it's like in meditation. You establish yourself in in your in your in your root, which is pure being or a consciousness. So you this this disidentification, losing the identification with the body, with a personality is a process in many cases, or in most cases, and that happens uh through what they call spiritual um practices like meditation. And in the case of Ramana Mahashi, you always recommended um self-inquiry, asking yourself, who am I? And and sticking to that I and holding it in your experience, always tracing back your experience to the substratum of that experience, that experience. Like Eckhart Tolli or Rupert Speyer and many other great spiritual teachers, they also uh they also always get back to these pointings. They say, Whatever you experience, uh turn your attention or draw your attention away from the content of your experience, from the object of your experience, whatever you see or hear or smell, and turn it to the source, to the eye that experiences, the experiencer. You could say there's a subject, although the separation between subject and object is ultimately illusory. But they say turn your attention away from the object of experience and ask yourself who is or what is experiencing this right now, the subject, and that is consciousness. And this is how disidentification um works in most cases.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

I I I really appreciate the way you phrase that. And I know two things there. The one you talk about pointing, and then you talked about drawing away your attention from the object, and then I replaced a word, like draw your attention away from the experience and put your attention to the experiencer. Like it's just a subtle, you know, you're in this experience, you feel it, you feel the emotions of it, and then when you step back to being the experiencer, those emotions just kind of like float away.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

And usually we think that emotions and thoughts are inseparable from us. Usually we think they belong to our inside world, and we believe other people and animals and everything we see in the so-called outside world, they are outside, and this is the object, and we usually are identified with our mind, with our thoughts, believing that the thoughts are the experiencer. But if you go deeper, you will realize that even the thoughts and emotions are objects of your experience, and not really the substratum, not really the the source, which is pure consciousness, and that is I love the the sound of the English word consciousness. German German is a very hard language, and we say yes, we say bewusstsein, and that sounds bewush, yeah. Consciousness is a wonderful word, it already sounds so flowing, so alive.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yes, music is like music, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

That's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

I wonder what it is. Is there a Sanskrit? I'm sure there's a Sanskrit word for it. I just don't know Sanskrit. I only know one word of Sanskrit. Um you know, that's the only word I know.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

I think it's Tatchit Ananda, so shit is uh awareness or consciousness in Sanskrit. C H I T.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Now that that just gave me goosebumps because it sounds like shit.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yes, even shit is a manifestation of consciousness.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Isn't that funny? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

And then they describe the nature of consciousness or the nature of reality in Sanskrit and the old Indian wisdom teachings like Avaita Vedanta, they describe it as sat, chit ananda. Sat is being or the so-called world, reality, chit is the inside world, consciousness. And if you realize that these two are one, sat and chit, the result is ananda, and ananda means uh bliss or happiness. So it's all the same. They say the nature, the nature of your being, yeah, existence, consciousness, bliss, which is synonymous.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

It's really one, yeah. I like that. It's like the blending and into the oneness again, and that's it. That's the bliss, is realizing when the shit and the and the whatever come together, it reminds me of like the lotus flower, you know, like how it's like buried in the mud and shit, and then it like floats above it, and it's still connected to it all, and yet it's there. Okay, that was cool. And then you talk about pointing. I like how you talk about all these different spiritual leaders are pointing, and I've always wondered that it seems like we as humans, society gets wrapped up in the pointer. Who is doing the pointing, like Ektart Tole or this Swami, or or Jesus, or Buddha? Oh, we gotta follow that pointer instead of looking at what they're all pointing at as the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Exactly. The message is always more important than the messenger, yes. But we have a if you look at Christianity, for example, the popular way Christianity is practiced usually, um, they put Jesus on a podist on a on a throne, and they say Jesus is more important than the message. So they are neglecting themselves. I always ask these people, they say, Jesus is the son of God. I always ask them, Who are you? Jesus is the son of God, and you are praying to Jesus, and you are who are you? That's the most important question. Always start with yourself, and if you find out who you truly are, then the separation is seen through as an illusion.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

And earlier mentioned in the path to that no fear, the path to no fear is sitting in meditation and starting with who am I? So then my question for you is who are you?

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Well, there's no word that can really um that can really that can really sum up the full range of what I am or whatever something because every every word is coming from the mind, and what I am is prior to the mind and beyond the mind. And I would usually say that I am what everybody and everything is, that which is, and the most common words today in the English language used by spiritual teachers, which which I think are very efficient, are consciousness or awareness or being, because they are free from traditional concepts and free from religious dogma. If I say God or the Christ consciousness or whatever, they have um, how do you say they they they wear they are wearing a concept within themselves, they are interpreted in a certain way. But even scientists and atheists and materialists, all everybody is using the word consciousness, awareness, being everybody knows what this these words are pointing to, they are free from religious meaning, and that's why I think these words are the most efficient to point to what we really are, so that everybody can understand. Because if I say Christ consciousness, many people, especially atheists, will immediately put out their shield, like yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Oh, you use the C word. Nope, no, no, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

But these are so free from religion and from a certain uh tradition that everybody they are accessible to everybody. And now I learn what everybody and everything really is.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

So it sounds like you figured out who you are. And then so the question is so if that's the path to no fear, then what are you afraid of these days? I mean, that may be a live trace a live dinosaur with bearing its teeth. And I don't know, like the more human aspect of it. Is there something that scares you these days?

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Well, not in my actual experience, and it is very hard to say. Um, I would not be afraid in a certain situation that I imagine now. Actually, I do not experience fear on a daily basis and in my everyday experiences, but it would be kind of arrogant to say that I am totally free from fear because life will always challenge you, and I'm sure, although this is imagination, but I'm sure there would be certain situations possible that uh would make fear arise within myself, no doubt. Yes. If I would, I don't know, go for a walk here in Hirschbeck in Germany. There are no bears or ancient animals, but just um imagining myself going for a walk and suddenly a big bear comes out through the woods from the forest, right? I would certainly be afraid.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

I like how you tie in the ego part of it too, like it'd be egotistical to say I have no fear. And then you mentioned that person, I've never heard of him, big long sound of the Indian name. Do you think if we ask them, if they have fear? You said they have no fear.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Do you think if we ask them you mean Ramana Mahashi, the man I mentioned?

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah. Do you think if we asked that person, if they have fear?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

I have never met him in person, so I cannot know for sure, but I believe the reports of people living with him, they said he did meet. Actually, that's a um a nice a nice example because it's uh it's in line with with with uh the example I just um chose with uh the bear. He met tigers and leopards in India in the wild. He was not afraid of them, and he was dying, he died without fear. That's what the people who lived with him said, and that they are the stories where he was operated because he was he had cancer on his arm, and uh he did not need the how do you say in English, the anesthesia, right? Yes, and he was totally free from fear in every single situation, so it is possible. I only know this um state uh from deep meditation. In deep meditation, there's really no fear, nothing sometimes in deep meditation. I I thought whatever happens to this body now, I don't give a damn. Yes, really, and I think you had your near-death experiences, and I you didn't you didn't tell about it, but I guess because I've heard many of those incidents, you you felt the same. Whatever happens to the body, to the so-called person, I I don't mind.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Right, and it's interesting with that near-death experience because my story was that where it's just it was I was nowhere and everywhere at once. I was nobody and everybody all at once, and so for me, that was peaceful. And others who have experienced that same thing where they said they were nobody, it was an ego death to them, that was terrifying. That was that was hell for them, and it was really scary. So it's interesting. And we talk about like therapies that use psychedelics, and then if you did just take a psychedelic on your own, you don't know how the trip will go. And there's now research where if you're sitting with a trained therapist doing a psychedelic or a shaman or a guide, they can take you through that journey and feel safe and allow and allow that process to happen, knowing that they're they're okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

And that's exactly the the role, the function of a spiritual teacher. Like uh I think Orsho used to say that if you have deep, deep meditative experiences, it can it can be very fearful, but I'm here to to hold you, to to show you that this is nothing that can destroy you. So that's the function of a spiritual teacher, to accompany accompany uh people when they have deep meditative states.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Now, can we talk about Osho just for a second? Yeah, I you know, I you know, I don't want to sound culty, but I love the guy. And I saw this documentary on Netflix, I think it's called Wild Wild Country, and talked about his compound. I think it was up in Oregon, and then he had that lady with him, and and uh yeah, we go back to that shit, shit hit the fan. Yeah, and so and despite all that, I still like reading what he wrote and watching what he said.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Oh, Osho books are amazing. I recommend them, highly recommend him to everybody with words. He's one of the clearest, he's incredible. I don't know about the person, and I don't care about the person, Osho. But his words, his pointings, the books are just wonderful books.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

I really like that. Like there's some music people that I like their music, and I don't care about the person. Like I in real life, they might be a just a total turd of a person, you know, and yet their music is enlightening and powerful. I don't know what happens there. I think it's maybe their their inner being, the I am, is coming out in an expression of life, and then they go back into this body and the mask that they wear, their persona, like I have to be this person. It's like that moment of truth, and then they go back into hiding.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Yeah, Michael Jackson even said it like that. Michael Jackson once said in an interview, and in more than just one interview, he said, I'm not really the creator of my music. It is, it just flows through me, and I'm not really there when it is created. And that shows that someone really, you know, when you understand.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

That's beautiful how we went from quoting Osha and some of these others, and now we're quoting Michael Jackson, and it's it's truth is truth, truth is truth. Exactly. And I like what you're talking about that person that got operated on.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yeah, Raman.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

And a lot of people are fearful of surgery. And I feel that fear sometimes causes pain, whether it's emotional pain, and then the emotional pain will eventually cause physical pain. And then you talked about attention, taking your attention off of objects and then attention onto the experiencer. And it reminds me of hypnosis, because we do some hypnosis for surgeries, people that are allergic to anesthesia or Brain surgery, you have to stay awake, and if they're they can't do the propopol, then they'll do hypnosis, and they'll be that person will be like in Hawaii sometimes, you know, like just and meanwhile the skull is getting drilled upon, and yet there's no fear. Wow, that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

There are many different ways to access your inner being. Your inner being is returning to the German language. Uh your inner being is um always inherently free from all fear. Actually, it would be correct to say that you are never afraid. What you really are, the self, knows no fear, only the mind with thoughts. Ramana Mahashi once said, which is a perfect saying, he said, fear is just a thought. It is impossible to be afraid without thoughts. So your deeper true self is always inherently free from fear, it knows no fear. And to access this natural state is uh the art of spiritual living. So that's why Ramana Mahashi, he kind of he's one of those, that's how I see it. Um, he's one of those that were able to transfer the deep meditative state into everyday living, still conscious of the body, because in my in my case, when I am conscious of my body, I'm feeling the body, it is it feels very different than in deep meditation because in deep meditation I do not feel the body, I'm not aware of the body anymore. And that's when I said a few minutes ago, I don't give a damn what feeling the body, in my case, there still sometimes arises uh an identification with it. And in a case of Ramana Mahashi, which is which is very rare and very, I think, very um missing the English word, it's very um just amazing, you know? Yeah, something impressive, very impressive, that he was able, though being aware of the body all the time to not be identified with it, and because of this non-identification, not being afraid of anything in the everyday state. So he was you you could say he was able to transfer the deep meditative state into everyday into the everyday state of normal human living. That is really amazing.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

And it's funny because right when you were saying that, I was picturing your Facebook account, how it's now all talking about consciousness and awareness and the spirituality. And then it's like, well, what happened to Simon, the guy, you know, like I see your football or in America soccer posters behind you, you know, that's that's you experiencing your body. You know, it's that you know, it's like that separation, you know, like these are soccer players, and then there's a certain point where you start becoming the the football player, like you're watching, and all of a sudden now you're the one on the pitch with them.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Yeah, I I was a few years ago or a few months ago, and I would say a few years ago, I stopped um the distinction between so-called spirituality and so-called worldly things, like soccer. To me, everything is spiritual. What brings you joy in everyday life is spiritual, everything is an expression of that, an expression of life, and life is joy. So everything to me is an expression of joy, including so-called worldly things like soccer. Yeah, yeah, I start seeing this distinction because that's also just mind-made.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Right. And it's funny because for me it's Pokemon.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

I was a huge Pokemon fan as a child, actually.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like I'm still a child.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yes, that's wonderful. Everybody's still a child inside.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Yeah, yeah. How how do you take someone speaking of being a child? And we talked about Christianity and others, they talk about being like a child. And I remember the innocence of that, of believing in Santa Claus.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Because Santa Claus is real. And somewhere along the line, someone told me Santa Claus isn't real. So, how do we go back in in time and embrace the belief that Santa Claus is real?

SPEAKER_01 26:28

You mean returning to the original innocence?

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Or do you mean specifically?

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Yeah, the original innocence. Because because children don't start out with fear.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

They're they come out, they're like, I would like loved now. And they express it and they're loved. I well, you know, some sometimes they're not in dark situations. I'm talking about just that pure moment of innocence of birth, like burst is that reality. You're you come out and you just scream like, ah, it was so nice where I was, you know, that being because we're born into the body. Like, and then as soon as our bodies open up, we're like, ah, this is scary, and sitting with my near-death experience. And I was in that beautiful place, and then they revived me. And then I was like, I literally said my first words back to life were like, What the fuck? I was like, I just I just screamed it over and over, like, this is crazy. I where I was, I there was no pain, there's no responsibility, there's no fear, and now I'm in my body, there's pain, there's responsibility, there's fear. So, how do we go back to that childlike wonder and curiosity and playfulness?

SPEAKER_01 27:54

By realizing that we we never really lost it. And all actually, all spiritual teachers point to the possibility and to the necessity ultimately, to the necessity of returning to that childlike state. Even Jesus said, Um, I don't know exactly the words, Jesus said something like, Um, I tell you, if you know if you don't become children again, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven, which is just you know, just in my case, in my eyes, it's just an analogy for the inner bliss, the kingdom of heaven. Because children are happy. That's the child like state. And all spiritual teachers say, Become a child again. That is your true nature, and the the bullshit that we learn over the decades is just veiling it, but it is not really destroyed. It is impossible to destroy the inner child, this innocence, it is always there, but hidden and veiled by by yeah bullshit, by a lot of by a lot of illusions that were taught. And to the first thing is to realize that you have been conditioned in a certain way, and that you have been conditioned to believe in many illusions and many things that are not true, including who you really are, because we are taught to believe that we are a separate person, this body, and I am Simon, and you are uh Ryan, and that's the separation and individuality, and it's all just conditioning. And the first thing on the way back to the child would be to realize, or at least be open to the possibility that I have been deeply conditioned to believe in illusions.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

That's I almost want to just make a little snippet of that. Like, I don't have the patience or the technical where how to make that like a little short, you know, on YouTube or Instagram because that was that was really my subconscious, my unconscious is still processing it. It's like dancing with your words right now. Like my there's something inside of me just enjoying the vibe, you know. So we talk about being spiritual and being in that place of meditation, like I don't give a damn about my body. And then at some point, you realize I need to do the laundry, I need, or I need to go out in the yard and and mow, or I need to pay my taxes. So how do we balance both of carrying that place of I don't give a damn about my body into the this shit sucks moments?

SPEAKER_01 30:39

I think it's very important that we um that we get over this distinction between so-called spiritual life and so-called everyday life. There's just life, there's no such thing as even spirituality, is a concept ultimately. And if you see everything as an expression of life, even this uh the things that have to be done on a on an everyday basis, um, you can enjoy them when you are present. There's always the thought, I don't want to do this, but if you have to do this on the human scale, on the human basis, there's always the chance to enjoy it by being fully present. One of the spiritual teachers that are kind of specialized on this, uh Ekartoli, very popular to everyone, who always says you can enjoy what you are doing, whatever that is. It doesn't matter what you are doing, you can enjoy it by bringing your aliveness, your presence into it. It can be the most mundane thing. Is this the right word? Mundane, yeah, like doing the dishes or cleaning the house when you are fully present, feeling your own intense aliveness while doing it, you can be intensely happy. It that I mean, like in Zen. In Zen, they they uh transformed such a simple thing as drinking tea into meditation. They deeply enjoy, like the Zen master Tiknat Han, they deeply enjoy just drinking the tea.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Yeah, I I it's funny you talked about dishes, and then you said just like Tiknat Han, because I know he also talked about the meditation of washing the dish, feeling the soap between your fingers and the heat of the water and the coldness of the plate, and just maybe and it's funny because my window looks out onto a driveway in the neighbor's house. We're like all bunched up together, and yet there's still sunshine despite all this construction, despite an overgrown driveway that needs mode. There's still a light that comes down on me. Even in a rainy day, there's still a light that comes down on me washing those dishes.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

That's fun. Um, I wrote a lot down here. I'm just looking over. I'm kind of rewinding and going back to that that man you said. What was his name? It's like a long name.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Rana Ramana Mahashi.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Is that a different one than the one that Ram Das went to? That was Maharabi, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Yes, Ram Das went to um came namoli baba. Okay. And you always called him Maharaji. It's Name Karoli Baba. Yeah, that's a different one. In the end, ultimately, essentially they are not different, of course. Right, right. I'm referring to Ramana Mahashi, yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

And you mentioned, thank you for the clarification, and you mentioned that he was the manifestation of all that's possible.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Yes, one of them, yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

One of them, yes. And so I like how manifesting is a selection of anything that's possible. So like all possibilities exist, and to manifest something, you choose one of those possibilities. How and then can you walk us through how a person can choose a possibility and manifest something?

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Well, a person cannot choose anything because the person is an illusion. It's something like um, you know, it just happens that the fruit is ripe and then it falls. So when the source, which is what you are ultimately, when the source is ready to return to itself, to rest as itself again, when the source has had enough of the dreams that it lost itself in, like hypnotizing itself with the content of consciousness, then it just happens through um different pointings or experiences that remind you of who you really are, and that you cannot be touched by anything. And when I said uh Ramana Mashi, the manif is a manifestation, I said I meant that um he is um an example of the potential that is inside each of us. Yeah, you could you could also say Buddha or Jesus or whatever, yeah, whoever you feel drawn to. He's he's like a mirror reflecting to you your own potential, your own possibility, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

So then is choice an illusion? Because like I feel like even though our conversation was divinely appointed, like it was scripted, like this was fate for us to be here. I feel like it was just the path. And I feel like I chose to reach out to you. So in a way, I manifested this.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

I would say that that a choice of free will is an illusion when you believe that there is a person that has this free will, but there's a deeper freedom, and that is the freedom of consciousness that is independent of everything. And you could say that consciousness is able to choose, but it's not a person, not a separate individual choosing something. There's a thought, there's just the appearance of a thought that, for example, tells me to drink milk instead of I don't know, orange juice or something, right? And then I say, okay, I made this decision to um drink milk instead of orange juice, but it was just a thought appearing in consciousness, and the I that says, I did this, I decided this, is also just thought. Right. It's just a construct in your own mind that says I chose and I am the decider and doer of things ultimately. It just happens ultimately.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Yeah, so that's it's interesting because that's troubling for my ego.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Right. And then my my ego is like arguing right now. Like, if if this is just happening, then why does it seem like some people again and they go back to that persistent illusion? Why do some people choose to be a football player and they're good at it? And some people choose to be a football player and they're terrible at it. Like they have this dream to be another messy and they're or a beckon and they're like and they never get it. Instead, they might be, I don't know, a janitor somewhere or or CEO, you know, like so what these thoughts, these illusions, these things. Like, why? Like, why do we have have those? It feels like it's a trick. Like we're being tricked.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

I mean, why do we have those? Um Yeah, it feels like we're being tricked.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Like we're we're being duped. Like, oh, you can you can have, you can make anything you want, you can be anything you want. And then it feels like it's a trick. I don't know if you've ever seen uh Peanuts cartoons with Charlie Brown, and then he's almost every comic strip, Charlie Brown wants to kick this football through a field goal, and you know, American football. And then Lucy is there, her his friend, you know. I put it in the air quotes, his friend is sitting there with the football. And then Charlie Brown runs to go kicks it, and every time Lucy takes it away, and then Charlie Brown misses and then falls on his butt. And that's what it feels like life is sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah, it's just a big play.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Yeah, just big play, like, and I'm the clown. I'm the one that falls for it every time and it falls on my butt. And then for some reason I keep getting back up. Like, I don't know why I just like fine, Lucy. I'm gonna just go lie on the ground and not play this game anymore.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Yeah, that's that's the that's you can either be identified with being the clown, being uh thrown around by life, or you can realize that you are this life, there's no separation to it. So that is the the um the very popular and very famous role of a victim, which is very seductive to the ego. I am a poor victim, right? So life is treating me so bad, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Right, you can realize that you are that life, so right, and in that analogy of Charlie Brown Lucy, I'm also Lucy, I'm the one that's pulling the ball away. Yeah, I'm also the ball itself, I am also the field goal, exactly. Yes, that's very true, very deep and very true. Yeah, right. So then where do these desire it feels like a desire, like an emotional response? Like, could we just sit in a cave all day and meditate?

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Yeah, if the desire arises to sit in a cave and meditate 24 hours a day, yeah, you can do it. Because some people actually did, so they showed that it was possible, right? I can I can just say in my case, there's the desire to express yourself in a different way. I do meditate on a regular basis, but not as intensely as I used to, and it has never been a question to me to meditate in a cave. But yes, these are the many different individual, and individuality, by the way, it's not an ultimate reality, it is not everlasting, but individuality is a wonderful thing because it is the it is expressing the creativity of consciousness. If you look into nature, all the different kinds of species of animals, of plants, of stars and planets, that shows the infinite creativity of being or consciousness, or if you want to speak in a religious language, the infinite creativity of God, right? That's it's it's pure joy. I look at it as an expression of joy or love.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

And I I like how you just say joy or love, because earlier you're talking about joy, joy, it's a scene. Yeah, and I feel like do you feel like that's the opposite of fear?

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Yeah, um, fear is is just an um, you could say, uh very short-lived appearance in that which is everlasting, and that which is ever present and never comes and goes. Fears is fear is just a thought, as Ramana Mahashi said, just a thought coming and going. But fear, I think ultimately, if we trace it back into the evolutionary meaning and into nature, I think fear is very necessary for a biological organism, like a human being or other species, because it protects you. Like if a deer or a rabbit would never be afraid, it wouldn't last long. And also, probably our ancestors were hunted by predators, so that is something that is left over till today. But there is something that is adding to it, and that's illusory, and that is the human mind, the thoughts, everyday thoughts, that are telling stories of things that don't actually exist. Because, and everybody can check this in his or her own experience. 95 to 99 percent of our fears are referring to something that is not really there. That we are often afraid of the future, and everybody can check this. In most cases, that which we are afraid of never really happens. So the human mind made fear into a much more complex phenomenon than it is ultimately in nature. When there's an animal that is afraid, it is functional, so it runs away from the predator, it's very intelligent, actually, this kind of fear, but then the danger is over and it it just enjoys its life and and is eating again, whatever, or enjoying the sunset, whatever. And in the case of a human being, we have this complex these complex minds, so our thoughts they first invent an illusion and then make it like longer lasting than necessary. That's we are blessed to be human, but it's also a curse. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Yeah, and part of me too is wondering when you're talking about that temporary fear. I aren't are there some cultures that look at that with joy? They're like, Oh, look, there's fear again. And they and they wonder with curiosity and love. They're like, Oh, I'm afraid. Or I have or I have fear. Not I am feared, but I have fear. And I like in the Turkish they use the term called. Var, because in Turkish there's no such thing as to have. The var means to exist. So they're like, fear exists, it's just there. And then you can hold that in loving kindness and curiosity. Oh, fear. Interesting. I love you. Thank you for being here. What are you telling me?

SPEAKER_01 44:19

That's wonderful. Yeah, spiritual teachers like Osho or Ekantolo always refer to the possibility that if you accept it, it will vanish very quickly. So I wouldn't really say that fear is an opposite of something. Ultimately, there are no opposites. Even fear or hate, Osho says that sometimes, I think. Even hate, and it sounds weird, but even hate is an expression of love.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Yeah, that's okay. So that that touches what's going on in the world today. I feel like a lot of people are resisting what's happening and it's causing a hate.

unknown 44:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

They're like, oh, this person is a president, or this war is happening, and I hate this. And so then they're gonna just like, and I don't want to hate, so I'm going to protest against it. I'm gonna make signs and say, This isn't me, this isn't happening. No, it's that resistance, and it feels like it they're holding on to the hate without and the other image that came to me is like the hate as a present. Like if you feel like, oh, I hate this, oh look, it's another present for me to open and see what it is. So Santa is real.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

Yeah, Santa is as real as everything you can see. I mean, if you have a if you uh as a child, the child has a very vivid imagination. If you imagine Santa and you can see him with your eyes or in a dream state or whatever, what makes you think that it is more or less real than everything else that you can see? I mean, it's a perception. That's why some um spiritual teachers, such as Ramana, they point to the ultimate reality of that which cannot be seen, which is the source, which is consciousness or awareness or being. They say ultimately only that is real, and everything is in the same state of illusion, the so-called waking state or the dream state, or the imaginary state, they are all the same. They're all just perceptions that come and go. And they say only that which is ever present, which which which does not come and which does not go, only that is ultimately real. But I would I would look at it this way: whatever is appearing in your experience right now is real. I mean, it's very easy to say when you're in big physical pain to say, ah, this isn't real. Right. Then it is very real. So, yeah, if you imagine Santa or even see him in a dream or imagine him as a child, it is real, it is your experience, your perception.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

I I like the idea of pain. That's weird to say that. And then even in the idea of like the BDSM community, it's there's uh that certain playfulness and pain. And even with that pain, it's amazing how our bodies are built through consciousness. To the there's those stories where people are at the end of life through this like horrible accident that's just like mangled their body, and yet they don't feel pain because the brain releases DNT or whatever, and then they it's like they feel bliss to look at it with our eyes and our senses, it looks horrific, like they're in pure agony, and then all of a sudden their face says they're in bliss, like your your leg is over here when the rest of your body is over here. How are you not in pain? How are you in bliss?

SPEAKER_01 47:53

Yeah, yeah. I I look at everything as a manifestation of intelligence, and so the body is extremely intelligent. If the mind does not interfere too much and ruins that, but the body in its natural state, even pain is just a message from the body. So the body is extremely intelligent, isn't it? And that's the the example that you told about just is perfect, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

I appreciate how you're talking about how the mind interferes with the body sometimes, and then you're going back to bio talking about like Paul saying, I want to do this, and yet you know I feel like my body wants to do this. There's that tug of war, and then we we assign the word I, I, to the the mind, and like so. What is what is the mind?

SPEAKER_01 48:44

The mind is just thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

And where do thoughts come from?

SPEAKER_01 48:49

They appear in consciousness as an as an expression of consciousness, and in the case of human thoughts, they are the result of consciousness being filtered through the human brain. If consciousness is uh filtered through the brain of a chimpanzee, there will be very different perceptions and thoughts and emotions. If consciousness is filtered through the brain of a dog or a cat or an insect, there will again be very different perceptions or thoughts, if at all, thoughts. I I doubt that there are really thoughts in the case of a fly, for example, but I don't know. But the consciousness is the common factor, the the same in all of them.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

So thoughts are just an appearance and expression and consciousness.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

And how did this all start for you? When did you first it's like The Wizard of Oz? I don't know if you've seen that. Where Dorothy, so they there's this persistent illusion again where this great big God, angry with like flames coming out of it, this big face of God rules over all of Oz. Yeah, and then Dorothy goes to see him. Okay, maybe Oz can get me home because Dorothy's lost and she wants to get home. So great Oz, can you get me home? And then the little doggy Toto goes over to the curtain, like bark, bark, bark, and then and then they eventually pull back the curtain, and it's just the man in there manipulating this great big Oz. So the question is, when did you pull back the curtain, or what caused you to pull back the curtain and see behind the curtain, behind the illusion, behind the the Maya, the veil?

SPEAKER_01 50:38

So you mean what started my so-called spiritual journey?

SPEAKER_00 50:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

I was raised in a Christian way by my father, who believed that there's Jesus Christ, the personal savior, and there's a higher God who will punish you if you do not live in a way that is um consistent with the will of that God. So in a very traditional Christian way, I was raised, but even as a child, I thought that something is is wrong here. This sounds too human to me. This God, this God from the Bible sounds very human to me because he's even he's jealous, he's he tells you to not pray to other gods, right? So that is that's jealousy. I thought, okay, that's very human. Right. That is I started questioning the Christian faith, and um, then I lost myself in materialism, believing that the world is just biology and chemistry and physics, and we are these bodies, and that's it. And I was um trying to find happiness, lasting happiness by becoming a very successful body. In my case, it was martial arts and boxing. By becoming a successful boxer, I thought that this would be um the goal that gave me happiness, and I I became a good boxer and it did not make me happy. So it was it was just many different experiences and things that happened that led me to questioning the common way of life, because we are all raised in the belief that we have to be successful people, and if you become a successful man or woman, beautiful and loved by others and admired, then you will be absolutely happy. If you're successful in a in your job, you have money, you will be happy. But many, many people that are very so-called rich have a lot of money, they are not happy. Or popular people, we know about a lot of popular people that kill themselves because they are so unhappy. And all this shows us that this is not the source of happiness, does not lie in outer circumstances. So there were many different um observations in the my surroundings that led me to questioning everything, and then I started to read um uh books about near-death experiences actually, like 12 to 15 years ago, and then I wanted to interview them. I met a lot of them, of those um near-death experienced people, and that was the first spiritual topic that uh that interested me. Um, it was a very, very eye-opening.

SPEAKER_00 53:16

I love that. And before we let you go, thank you. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

I'm wondering what comes to your heart when I ask, is there a message you would like to share with the world right now in this moment?

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Um, especially to the so-called spiritual people, it is very important to come to a point in your realization where when you truly see that there is no higher or lower, there's no such thing ultimately as a higher evolved spiritual being or soul. We are all the same, absolutely identical. We are really one. I mean, in the not even connected, because connect connection means a separation.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

There's still point A and cut out there for a moment. And and I just realized I did not hit record. From the very beginning? From the very beginning. It was so good. It was so good too. So good, man.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

But you but I I remember you you did because it was shown to me. Um it is um recorded now.

SPEAKER_00 54:53

That is so weird. Yeah, that's what I thought. But some reason, like, watch, I'll hit oh, it did. Okay, cool. Okay, so I can edit this part out. Maybe you know what? I'm gonna just take a moment here and say no. I'll leave it in because that shows the funniness of life. I appreciate Simon how you, when I said I didn't record this, and then you're you just start laughing. That's funny. So some people that would be, oh man, we just wasted an hour. And we go back to that other illusion of time. It's funny because time is also an illusion. And I know time and this other thing, this money, you know, both are illusions, and both of them cause fear in a lot of people. Oh, yeah. Like, oh, I just lost time, I just lost money, and yet it didn't really exist to begin with.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

It's actually human invention, both of them, yes.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Yeah, yeah. So the good news is all that great stuff we got, including like the shit, the illusion, the the walking, the oneness, like we got it all. So I'm so happy and grateful for that. I'm so happy and grateful for you being here.

SPEAKER_01 56:12

Thank you very much for the invitation. It was a great fun. And the message I was about this, uh, I didn't uh finish it, right? What I wanted to say is that we are all one. There's never a reason to not be humble, and even in spiritual circles, it is very seductive to the ego to consider yourself a spiritually evolved being, a soul that is higher or older or wiser than everybody else. And that is the most important thing to realize that there's no such thing as higher or lower. We are all one, and uh, that brings peace and freedom. You are nothing special, you are just the infinity, the that which is, and that is and it it's funny how we both laugh at that because it's true, and it's so funny.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

Like, I'm imagining you're like, we're not elevated spiritual beings, and you're right. Because as much as I know, and I feel like I know, the more I learn, the less I know, type of thing. I will never or I feel like I will never be as perfect as a newborn baby with that pure level of curiosity and wonder and experience, and yet yet that perfection is still inside of you right now. Right, right. It's just getting rid of shedding the conditioning, shedding all that that's like for instance, like we were born to walk on water, yet somewhere along the line, someone said you cannot walk on water. And so until I can walk on water, I am not the spiritual being I think I am.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

Yeah, we can we can get rid of these veils uh by um by um like like accelerating it through spiritual practice, or it happens naturally when death comes and and strips those illusions away for you.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

Well, thank you again. And for everyone everyone that's here, we'll put the links on how we can get in touch with Simon. I got a few books in German, and then do you plan on putting them out in English or other languages?

SPEAKER_01 58:21

There are one or two projects that I will finish in German now, writing a book about Bruce Lee and writing a book about animals. And when I finish that, then I may consider to translate or have someone translate them into English.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

And sometimes I did translate some excerpts from the books and on and posted them on the Facebook page.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

On the Facebook. And that's the primary way for people to get in touch with you is through Facebook.

unknown 58:47

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Yeah, on my email address, maybe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Yeah, I'll and we'll put whatever in the description here. So again, thank you, and thank you, listeners.