Kenton Knepper: Spoon Bending, Hermetic Philosophy, and Why Consciousness is the Magic That Matters

In this episode of AWAKEN, Ryan sits down with Kenton Knepper — master mentalist, suggestionist, magician, mystic, and pianist — for one of the most wide-ranging, reality-bending conversations the show has ever had. Kenton joins from Phoenix, Arizona, where he has been quietly bending spoons, affecting weather, putting podcast hosts into trance mid-sentence, and channeling original piano music at a rate of three to four compositions a week — sometimes more — for most of his adult life. He has been doing paid magic performances since he was 8 years old.

Professionals in his field refer to what he does as "Kentonism" — a strange blend of magic, mentalism, suggestion, psychology, and hypnosis that doesn't fit cleanly into any single category, which is exactly how Kenton likes it. His teaching website, WonderWizards.com, is primarily for magicians and mentalists, but the conversation makes clear that what he's really teaching is the nature of consciousness itself.

Ryan came into this conversation having just drawn the Magician card from his tarot deck before hitting record. Kenton walked in carrying Hermetic philosophy, a spoon metaphor that reframed the entire culture war in about four minutes, a story about a skeptical partner and a perfectly timed Journey song, and a conversation he'd had with Claude about the future of humanity and AI that ended with the suggestion to buy less stuff from Amazon.

The conversation covers: the moment as a teenager when Kenton stepped outside and realized it was all a movie — and turned to look, and it was gone. How Ormond McGill, the father of stage hypnotism, used to drop people coming off trains with a single word. Why the High Priestess in tarot is the same figure as the Virgin Mary in Catholic stained glass — and what that tells you about how symbols enter consciousness whether we understand them or not. Why Aleister Crowley's ego got in the way of his tarot deck. The BOTA deck, which you have to color by hand, because that's how the symbols go in properly. How Kenton relates every planet in astrology to specific piano keys and composes accordingly. Why he stopped doing singing bowls when everyone and their uncle got certified as a gong master in a weekend. And why the conscious mind is not the destination — it's the magnifying glass.

He also puts someone into an altered state on a podcast by accident, refuses to let the host edit it out, and calls it the best proof he could offer for why this work matters.

Three quotes from Kenton worth writing down:

"Magic was always more like me being honest. It was a representation of things I'd actually experienced in life."

"How do you make hot water cooler? You add cool water. You don't try to take away the hot water. That's how you work with polarity — you hold the other end, and slowly things shift."

"The more I can get my personality out of the way to allow things to work, the better off I am. I'm just trying to keep up."

Connect with Kenton Knepper: Magic, mentalism & intensives: wonderwizards.com 

Connect with Ryan DeJonghe / TranceWell: Website: trancewell.help Email: ryan@trancewell.help

Transcript

0:02

Hello, my friends, my family. You spent a lot of time with me, and I I really appreciate it. So thank you so much for being here. And because of my appreciation and because of your attention, we're able to bring on some amazing guests. And today we have Kitten Nepper. So thank you for being here, Mr. Nepper. Glad to be here. Magic and mystery and mentalism and sound healing. Everything. So what got you started in all of this journey? Um, well, I I mean I came in pretty much in this lifetime, as far back as I can remember, with some kind of spiritual connection of some. I was always searching for more. I was always trying to make the connection clearer. Uh and this is true even when I was a little kid. And the music thing goes back to pretty early too. My mom used to say, Well, I was a great traveler because I would make up my own songs uh traveling even when I was like three years old for hours and on it. It was just a thing. Um, and that's never that's never stopped. Um, so uh uh uh vibrations obviously are can affect things, and we're I'm sorry, sometimes the energy affects the video, so I apologize. It's all good. It's uh the sound is coming through, your warmth is coming through, and there's no delay on your warmth and your energy. So that's coming right through perfectly. Yeah, it's funny how I affect things sometimes. But I've noticed like over the years, it happened when I was very young. I had uh experiences when I was in my teens um that solidified a lot of it. Uh that uh I I remember, for example, walking out of my parents' front door one day and looking down the street and and going, Hey, wait a minute, it's it's all a movie. And I just sat there, stood there looking and going, okay, I don't want to move, I just want to take this in and see that it's a movie. And I was just, it was so obvious. Um, and and then I thought if I turn it might stop. Um, but I I want to keep looking. And then I went, I gotta check this out over here. So I went to look and it all went back into uh what we think of as you know shared reality. Uh so many years later, when when I heard uh Pink Floyd's The Wall and some of the lines that Roger Waters wrote, which is not at all what he was thinking about, but it sure fit my uh my experience, which is you know, I turned to look and it was gone. Um you know, I did have a fleeting glypse out of the corner of my eye, and it was very strange. Um I've had and that's that's the nice mild stuff I can talk about. I've had some pretty pretty intense experiences too. Oh, well, let's warm up. Maybe that'll be our grand finale. Maybe this is a fireworks display and you're popping off, you know, you're warming us up. Yeah. And a lot of what you say rings true to me, like having that death experience and seeing that other side. And also it reminds me of this book. I don't know if you've ever read it, reality transurfing. No. And it's talking about how like you can have life through this, like you're like the camera lens almost, like you're putting it in frame, and then you can choose what comes next in the frame. Ah, okay. So well, you know, I mean, mentalism, the whole idea of mentalism where we get the term, you know, goes way back. But mentalism was about uh one of the main principles of mentalism is the universe is essentially mental, you know. Yeah. And so um, you know, when I got into magic of mentalism at a really young age, my first like performance of magic that was paid, I was eight years old, so it had to happen pretty early. But when I got into mentalism, it was like, well, this rings true with experiences I've had. So it's it's a good suggestion, it's a good way to kind of share the feeling of that with other people, even if it's just performance. So I didn't have the whole, hey, you know, mentalism's all a fraud kind of thing that some performers have, because for me it was a representation of things I'd actually experienced in life. Now, I I understand I've good dear friends who are on the other side of that coin, and that's fine, but for me, um, it it just felt like more like me being honest. Uh so magic and mentalism to me was a way to combine um energy and kind of a uh a thinking, very clear thinking approach, but also a spiritual approach, uh, all tied up into one and a one nice little symbolic ball. Uh so magic and mentalism to me is symbolism, um, and and I treat it that way. Yeah, I I love what you're saying here because even in the world that I'm in now with hypnosis, sometimes I'll go do some street work. And if I just go up as be like, hey, you want to see some hypnosis, you know, you know, the power of your mind, they're like, no way. Yeah. Yeah. If I go and I do uh do you want to see, I'll I'll phrase it as a quick little magic trick, and I'll do a mentalism thing, and then it'll be like, oh, and it's like like you say, it kind of like bends reality a little bit when you start questioning, huh? I always thought it shouldn't work, but now I'm seeing it work. Yeah, right, exactly. You know, Orbal Orbal Meyer um and Orman McGill used to do a lot of really interesting things that way, and they would mix magic and mentalism and hypnosis together. Orman McGill was the um father of stage hypnotism, and so he uh he he used to catch people coming off trains back in the day, and when they'd come off a train, he'd go, which way are you going? Sleep. Just go, uh, you know, because he would catch their you know, momentary confusion of which what they were trying to do. Um, and so he started all sorts of things that have since been duplicated by lots of performers, but right, but it was uh even you know pre-Ericksonian stuff, um Erman McGill was pulling a lot of that. That's funny, and then the train itself is very hypnotic, it's like that rocking and swaying and body and you go from that reality, right, to bring off the into a different reality, and he would catch them at that moment, you know, and it's very much going, which way are you going? You know that's funny. You're giving me bad ideas, I think. I I live right by a train station. There you go. Nice, nice but I mean, I you know, I noticed this, like I was interviewed on a uh in in uh like a year or so ago, a couple years ago, on a podcast, and we were talking, it was among magicians, you know, and and so everybody goes, Oh, it's all a fake and whatever, whatever. So I'm being a I was just doing things that I do that I know about consciousness, uh and and you know, suggestion. Um, but nothing I wasn't like applying it very hard. I just was very aware um of projecting energies. And at a certain point, this fellow doing the interview went, Well, it's nice to have um he just blinked down. Sorry, I I and I went, no, this is what happens, happens a lot. He was just like, Oh, I went, it's alright. One, two, three. And he went, yeah, no, I just uh and and it was like an hour, um a minute and a half of silence on the on this podcast. I said, Don't edit the thing out. I know you want it really bad, but don't edit this thing out because this is like proof of of why this stuff matters, right? You can put people in normal conversation into altered states and make changes for them without them being conscious of it, you know. Uh, and I think that that's really useful. So it's good when, you know, even when there are stutters and things like even in video, you can change and shift things with people and they feel that vibe, and that's what matters more than anything to me. You know, it's magic is about originally the term is about uh a transformation and and communicating things that you can't communicate in regular ways. So hypnosis to me is just a natural part of that. Suggestion is a natural part, it's all suggestion, you know. Everything is a suggestion, right? So everything is hypnosis, really, just like this is what we call it. Sure, it's all altered states, right? It's and so the more that we work with those from a more conscious point of view, then the more we can do. Um now, some people do that in really nasty ways and and manipulate whole worlds or countries doing that stuff. Um because they learned a few principles and no morals, you know, so they just use the principles. But you know, but that's you know, they that's why some people were very protective of certain principles and why there are mystery schools and all that other stuff, uh, is because there are certain things that are not good in other people's hands. Um, you know, if their morals are selfish, entirely selfish, then you got some problems, you know. So And speaking of mystery schools, this will be the first of a few plugs for Wonderwizards.com, your website where they can get all kinds of things. You can get mentoring from you too, so they can learn. Yes. Yeah. Magic and mentalism and and all sorts in between um and lots of other uh other things um too. But it it's it's that website is primarily focused on magicians and mentalists. However, I will say my work with uh trance and hypnosis or suggestion and influence things that are on the website is good for anybody interested in in suggestion or hypnosis or anything like that. So yeah, I I think we can even go deeper beyond like hypnosis, beyond magic, and talk about it's energy or it's to me, it's vibrational. Oh, sure, evidently your work. It's even evident here, like you said earlier that sometimes you have an effect on Zoom calls where you know it acts a little funny. Yeah, yeah, it's it's uh you know, there are times where some of these like things have become universal running gags, uh like my messing with weather and things like that. Right. But but but it's also a kind of annoyance for some people if they're not used to it. It's like I you know, I can only control so much of it. Let me say this about vibration, I guess, first, because you brought up about twisting reality and things. So for me, first of all, anything we pick up is kind of magical, right? And we we forget this in in our modern times, you know, we'll go, oh AI's magical. Yeah, for a little while, you know, it'll be dangerous. Um, but but you know, it's like everything's magical, but it's it's how we perceive it that matters more. And so um, you know, I was talking about this with a student the other day, and I said, you know, part of what's going on from a hermetic point of view right now is we are so focused on polarity on the two poles, um, that we're we're there's a whole lot of nasty things happening in the world, and it's because of that they're playing poles against each other. Um so you know what I kind of the way I point it out kind of as an object lesson is I said, look, you can take like, well, not glasses here, let's use like a spoon, right? And I said, look, yeah, so if you have you say, look, this is like uh, you know, say the sphere, right? A sphere at the top of things, and this is down below, right? And we think, well, that's the two ends, right? And then there's the part in the middle we keep ignoring, but it's the two ends that matter, right? And that's right, and it's like, but that's the problem. If you start focusing, for example, let's just like focus on like the the bottom end. If you start doing that, then what happens is uh your perception is gonna start shifting about that, and then you go, something's not right there about the bottom end, because look at that end, there's something not right about it, right? More you do it, the worse it gets. And and this keeps happening because we're focusing on one end, and you go, Well, that's the problem, it's that end. And then you go, Well, it's not the other end, I'm on the right end up here, you know, so it's good. But then you start focusing on that end, and then you start getting other problems, and and then after a while, stuff gets like screwy, right? You know, and then pretty soon you're going, well, none of this is quite right. This isn't right, this is not happening right. Yeah, a little spoon bid going on it, and it warps our whole sense of reality to a point that it's like extremist, and then it gets really, really warped, and then you're like totally, totally like ruined. Uh, and and you know, you can't see like from this point of view, uh, you you can't see down here, you know, and from down here you can't see up here, and so you think you're totally at these ends, and that's the whole fight. And and they're the tricksters, their whole job is to make you forget that it's all one piece, and we're all connected, it's all one thing. Um, but well, they warp our reality really badly because they make us focus on the ends, you know. Um, and our job is to remind people of the center that we're all connected, it's not, it's yeah, there's two poles, there's two ends, but we're forgetting the major part, the most part. Whether it's we're all human or we're all one or we're all consciousness or you know, life or something. But if you just focus on the ends, that's how they control you, that's how they move things around on you, that's how they warp what you know is right and wrong. And and and so that's what you have to be careful of. And if you're not, well, we're on a good path to wipe out humanity, you know. Um, now listen, if that's what life is up to, life is up to that, and okay. But but pay attention, you know. Don't don't be fooled by the the tricks that people use that they're aware of. They can pit the poles against each other so you'll forget your humanity, you know. Now, I really appreciate that because when I started this podcast, I was manifesting I wanted to do spoon bending, or at least see someone do some spoon bending. So there I go, my wish came true. Well, I yes, I started doing that back in the I was in the newspapers in my uh growing up in my hometown when in the 70s, so I've been doing that a long time. It doesn't when I do it, it doesn't look like uh most tricksters do that kind of stuff to me. But that's again because I was come I'm coming from a very different place with it, you know. It yes, yeah, it was always more real to me. I had dreams about bending stuff when I was really young, so I just I was just waiting until I could, you know. Um yeah, I have lots of stories about that in psych class, and I I used to wear rings a lot, but they would bend into my fingers all the time. Um, so um it it's more than just a passing, you know, it's not a spoon trick to me. It's not about that. Uh you know, it's lived experience. So do you ever go to a restaurant and eat some hot soup and then you're like, oh no, my spoon just bent and it's on your, but it usually happens to a lot of friends. So like I'll get friends, like people from all over the world send me pictures and go, We were at this restaurant in Spain, we are at this place in Mexico, uh, we were talking about you, and then this, you know, and it's like, yeah, figures, and they go, No, we're not joking. This is it's like, yeah, I know. That happens, yeah. It happens. I like how you're just casual with it. You're like, uh, you know, it's just well, after a certain point, it's kind of like you go, Well, yeah, it rains sometimes, you know. It's like, what it rains? Well, you know, well, if you've never seen rain, I suppose, but you know, um so yeah, to me, it's not like to poo-poo it or anything, it's just it's so happens so so often it's not that abnormal. Right. It's like breathing. Yeah, it's just like me drinking some milk, you bending spoons, just yeah, part of the part of life. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and it's like I have um I've had over the years I've had partners go, what is the deal with like, you know, at first I thought you were full of it, you talking about your relationship with weather or whatever. And I said, But but now I know like if you're really mad, I I know it because it starts to get windy and stuff outside or it starts to storm. When uh you know, I even had one partner once go, Stop, you're really angry, don't walk out that door, because if you walk out the door right now, there's gonna be giant lightning flash or something. And I went, Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't storming or anything. And I walked out the door, and this brilliant white light went who nowhere. Um, you know, and it that was once there wasn't any lightning or thunder or any no noise. And and she said, See, come back inside. And she's she was highly, highly skeptical. So, you know, but it that was just she'd seen it enough times um to know that was, you know. And there was another time where we were talking, and she goes, I just don't know if I believe any of this stuff, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And I said, Okay. Um, but we were talking about this, and I told you about how emotions matter, and and I have this thing, and it started to rain. So that doesn't work for you. And she had Spotify on, she goes, I just don't know. And so what happened was Don't Stop Believing of Journey popped on. Oh and then it really started raining, and then she looked at me and went, Well, okay. Okay. I I appreciate you sharing those stories because I often look at myself and like, why do I always get in a relationship with muggles? Like it's like Yeah. It's like it's testing me, you know, and my ability to do magic. Yeah, we learn that way. Um, and I I think it's also lots of other other things that we have to have to learn and and it's a way we ground, because uh otherwise we don't ground. Um so we have people that are really challenging for us to make us stand up for ourselves. Right. It's like why walk when you can levitate? Okay, so early in that you're talking about having this call and you're talking about hermetics, and it's funny because I was just playing around with this writer tarot deck earlier, and of course on the box is you, the magician. There you are with your flowers. Isn't that Donald Trump healing people? I think that's well it is kind of orange now that I look at it. It's it's supposed to be red, it's supposed to be red and white just like that. That's the real colors. Oh, okay. So, yeah, so so you got the magician, and then I pulled this card, and it's funny. I don't know, is their hermit? Yeah, I don't know if that has anything to do with hermetics that you're talking about. What is hermetics? Yes, that is exactly right. Um, hermetics is uh well, comes from you know philosophy dedicated to Hermes, uh and uh the hermit is called that uh it'd be based on you know the idea of Hermes, both are kind of the magician and that are hermetic stances. Um and uh Hermetics has this principles. Uh one is the the there's seven main ones, but basically it's it talks about look, life is essentially mental. Um there is a principle duality that that causes existence, and so um even pre-existence, that's how things get created into being, so you need to understand duality and polarity and all that kind of stuff, and it it breaks down. Um there's a book, a little book called The Kabalion, which was a synthesized idea of a lot of the Hermetic principles. Um, Kabalion was written by uh there's controversies about it. We know for sure uh that uh Walker Atkinson was uh uh either wrote it entirely or was part of writing it. It says it's written by the three initiates, um, and some people say, well, that's not true, and some people say, Well, it was, but we one was Paul Foster Case was involved later and Atkinson was uh was in there, you know, what wrote most of it. Um but anyway, the whole idea is more about understanding um life, understanding that the that there's consciousness that underlies everything, and and working with that kind. Consciousness. Vibration is an essential part of hermetics. And so, you know, one of the wonderful things about polarity and vibration that Hermetics talks about is at what point is hot water cold? And you go, Oh, is that a cone? You know, what do you mean by that? It's like, well, it's a slide along the pole. So going back to this, well, I've ruined this now, but going back to the spoon, you know, it's like, at what point is it hot? What point is it cold? It's still a thing. It's still one thing. It's just sliding along it. So this is a thing, you know, we can call temperature, but there's, you know, there's not a point that, oh, now it's actually hot. That's a slide along the pole. When you understand that, then you start going, well, this person looks evil to me. They're totally evil. But they're a slide along the pole. So wait a minute, you know, we're all human, we're all part of the same consciousness. I might not like where they're hanging out at the moment, but you know, um, I can and I can move people along by holding the other pole uh and and slowly, you know, how do you make hot water cooler? You know, you add cool water, right? Right. You don't try to take away the hot water, you add cool water. Um, so all of Hermetics has all these little principles that are actually very esoteric but also very mundane and practical. So obviously, you've seen miracles. You put all miracles, yeah. Yeah. I wanna maybe that'll be the grand finale. So I'm watching this video on your website, Wonder Wizards, and they said you started off with the gospel illusion show. What is that? Oh, yeah. So I had a lot of teachers growing up. Uh and uh because I started so young, I had a lot of teachers. One was a stage hypnotist. We did a two plus hour stage show. Um, one was a stage illusionist, one uh one of the the hypnotist was also a burlesque comedy magician and a mentalist. So I mean now that's fun. And yeah, and he was he was a mess. Uh he was a healthy guy, but he was very well known in the in the area where I grew up. Um, and uh the two and a half hour illusion show uh um was in part a gospel magic show, and gospel magic is uh magic that's performed with uh as ways of presenting um ideas from from the Bible and from the Christian point of view. So it was a crazy thing because the show was very uh well known and um last I knew was still even still touring. Um but it was anything from a smaller show to a big show, and they did traditional magic, but they also did magic that had object lessons um about messages from uh Christianity, and and uh we got a lot of heat from the Christians for it. We would be you know performing in these big colleges or venues and things, um and and some people loved it and some people thought it was blasphemous. Yeah, it's so weird to me because I come from I I raised a religious and was a minister for a bit. And looking back, like I left the little church and joined the big church. Yeah. And I had this idea, like, what if we just do like a Bible tarot deck? You know, just like the tarot deck is a Bible deck if you understand it. Right, right, exactly. And then so what if we just made it more obvious and just put Bible verses with it? Because then you'd be missing like some of the other messages going into your subconscious that are much more spiritual than that. Uh I I will tell you we were at a place once, I won't say what it was for or anything, because I don't want to give away confidences, but we were at a place once in uh back east, and uh it was held in a monastery, and a friend of mine said, You need to go down to Mother Superior's office and just take a peek inside. And I went, Really? And they went, Yeah, yeah, go down there and go down, just when you can, you know. So I did, and I opened up the little door, and I saw what they meant. There was this giant piece of stained glass um that was of the high priestess and terror. Oh. And um I walked out and they said, See, it's Virgin Mary. I went, Yeah, I know. Because people who are in the know understand this is all related, these things are all uh related, but it was almost identical from uh like a weight deck, you know. Uh right. So, and if you and you know, Jung, Carl Jung used to say that the the psychologist he used to say, Well, yeah, I love going to a mass in Catholic churches because they they have great symbolism. You know, they still do alchemical mass, they still do, you know. Um, so so that's you know, that to me that was that's always part of it is wow, the more you can dig into symbols, really, there's a lot of wrong information out there, but um, that's why, you know, some of us uh got trained or still get trained in in mystery schools, it but it's so much work, most people never want to do that. But but because of that, you see things that most people don't see, but it's all there and it's going into the consciousness of others, and we know that, and that's important, even if they misunderstand it, you know, even if they fight over it when they don't even know what they're fighting over. It's it the symbols are still getting into consciousness which matter, you know. That is interesting how like you call it consciousness or like a hypnotist might call it the subconscious, is like always aware. The subconscious is yes, it goes in the subconscious. The subconscious in esoteric philosophy is is uh is the doorway into superconsciousness. So subconscious is uh highly held and valuable, but it's also understood to be uh not the end, it's it's the kind of the gateway. Um yeah. So when we're listening to our dukkha, is it uh communicating to the superconscious or um sometimes, you know, there's been some scientific as evidence that a friend of mine once, uh an old student of mine, uh Buddhist who is a lama, said said to me, you know, in in Buddhism, we're often taught, you know, you have to uh work with this stuff until you understand the consciousness, you understand. And he was hypnotist too, and understand the subconscious and all that. He goes, but it's important to use your rational mind, you know, that you think you train your conscious mind and all that. He said, which is funny because the new studies show that our conscious ideas, our choices, are coming from our subconscious. And when they study it a little further, they realize they can't figure out what the impulse is that starts the subconscious. Um and so this lines up with old esoteric philosophy, which is yeah, that's superconsciousness. Um, so this gets really heady and really in amazing places, but that's what it's that's what it's about. So for me, whether I'm doing uh any mesmerism or hypnosis or uh mentalism or magic tricks, you know, um there's a level of it, or especially music, there's a level of it that's really about transmitting consciousness from a higher level through the subconscious out uh through people, and vibration is one way to do that. So the music is a great way to do that. Magic and mentalism are great symbols of that. Yeah, that that makes sense. And going back to the symbols, you're talking about there's a lot of misinformation out there. Can they go to your website and learn these symbols? Um, well, yeah, like if anybody wants to like, if they're serious about tarot, uh we I have two things, but we have a whole section that's called intensives. Um, and I highly would, even though it's a little bit of an investment, it's I highly suggest you you go there. There is a tarot in uh intensive, it's broken over several sessions, but that will get you geared up to understanding the right symbols and the right ideas behind it, and then you can decide if you want to go go out from there. But that's that's an essential. Uh there's also the suggestion intensive, um, you know, that's that's there with some examples of um like me putting somebody under like another trance state by putting a chapstick on their mouth or something. So yeah, there's there's uh you know, and and it the so there's there's a lot of stuff in the intensives that will help that. But I would definitely suggest there's a tarot course, but then there's uh that's more for performers, but the tarot intensive is uh is really good if you really want to start understanding some of these symbols. Now, will that work with uh like the thaw tech the deck? Uh it works to Crowley. Uh it's not not as great with Crawley because Crowley, well it does, but let me say this uh Crawley's like uh his ego got in the way a lot, so he purposely did some things that it's not that there's not things in there, there are good valid designs and things in there, but you're mixing it with some of his consciousness, and in in my experience, that's probably not really wise. Um yeah, that makes sense. Like I noticed on the full card it has like the tiger nipping at it, but in most other tarot decks, it's wolf. Yeah, there are there are reasons for all that stuff, and it's not like I said, it's not necessarily wrong, but you have to understand it enough to be able to not confuse it. Um the the closest thing that we have mostly, unless you want to get into like Indian tatwas and stuff, which is a whole nother level of thing, but the the closest thing um really you get to a good esoteric deck is the Ryder Wait, the Pamela Pamela Smith deck. Yeah. Um, because it's even though it's not perfect, it's clear. Um, the the best one you can actually get your hands on uh is uh is a BOTA deck, uh, which was um uh is the Paul Foster case BOTA builders of the Adedum deck, uh which you can't get online. You might be able to find somebody reselling them like on Amazon or something, but you just go to bota.org if you're into that and then look for tarot. The thing about the Bot A deck is you need to have that, and they're they have a little book they sell to that's of coloring instructions because you have to color them by yourself by hand. Um, and this helps put those symbols into your uh consciousness much better. So I love that idea. Yeah, that's always the been the more esoteric way of going about these things is is to either draw them or color them or make them yourselves. So um that I highly suggest. Uh BOTA does not sell anything expensively because they are really uh for a nonprofit organization, they run by the skin of their service uh people, you know. Um, so you can you can get those things really cheaply. If you're really serious and in the heavy looking into that, then if you're at the BOTA website, I would, and by the way, they're not paying me for this, and I'm not trying to promote, you know. But it's like uh there's also uh a book called First of all, you should have highlights of the tarot, which tells you how to color the cards, because you have to have that. Um, but there's also a book uh that Paul Foster Case wrote uh called The Tarot, and um that is something if you're serious, you might want to look into because that will tell you more about really deep, deep connections and hidden meanes and things that will keep you going for decades and decades and decades. Um but if you you know and again if you balance that along with say what we did in the intensives, it'll all work together much easier for you. And you know, sweet, yeah. And the tarot intensive that you have on your site, I saw all your video, you had the tarot deck out, like one card was like floating around. Like, will you teach us that too? No. Or is that another one? No, that's that's something else, but it's representative of the fool. So again, it's like all these things are representative of the ideas um presented in the in the symbols in the cards, you know. I like how you did you talked about mesmerism a little bit. So that implies that change work. I know you see change in your audiences, but do you do you find uh people you've come start coming to you and asking you for things like healings and whatnot? Yeah, um, and I I I don't ever you know, I'm not a medical guy and I don't claim to do medical work or anything. Right. I've done energy work on people all the time, yeah. Right. You know, I I've been uh stopped in magic conventions and talked to people and they said, hey, you know, I got this thing or that, you know, and it's like they're always surprised that um that just looking at people or maybe moving their hand a little bit here and there or whatever, you know, makes them feel better. But yeah, for me, um so in magic uh trickdom, there's a uh a very famous guy called Harlan Tarbell, and he wrote this Tarbell course, which is huge in magic. But uh he would also, um, when he was at magic conventions, if somebody had a problem or a painter, you know, whatever, he wouldn't make anything about it. But before the dealer room opened, he'd sneak them in there and work on them and then send them on their way, you know. Um, and like me, you know, he didn't charge money for that or what it would just do that when they were around. Now, obviously, you can't do it full-time all the time like that, but um, you know, so for me, I get to do that work in mass with the music that I do. And so it's a great way because I relate, for example, everything in tarot and all the planets uh and all these vibrations and all these different tones and all these esoteric principles into the piano keys. Um, so uh, you know, if somebody says, write a song about this, I'll go, well, you know, what astrological sign, or what planets are we talking about? You know, um, for me, that means oh, I need to use the sun of Mercury for this to bet. So all of that to me is normal in the keys, and it's not what everybody else is talking about because there's all these guys that I had a great breakthrough, and they're very famous musicians and whatever in esoteric circles, but they haven't had any training, so they're a little off. They just don't know it. Um, but they're very popular, and people, you know, think that's great, and and of course, psychologically it helps, so that's good. But when you really do it, what happens is people can listen to very uh almost you know heavy, pounding Beethoven-ish-esque kind of sounds, uh, and still feel relaxed, and that's because understanding what the vibrations really are in certain keys and and structures and things. So music is incredibly powerful. And you know, when I when I felt really, even as a kid, when I felt at unease spiritually, music was the one thing that could bring me back up to a higher uh level. And that, you know, to this day, my friends know, uh, you know, if I say I'm going to church, they they know that means I'm going to a concert. Um, I might, you know, that's just that's just part of uh worship for me. Yes. And and so that's you know, that's my relationship to music. It's very, very deep, it's very profound, and it's very sacred. And so um it isn't just amusement. And and and very ignorant personalities uh can still write incredibly spiritual things and not know it. Um but the vibrations uh still work uh through them, and that's to me more more example that there's a uh greater consciousness working through their subconscious uh than they recognize. It's it's interesting to see how your journey has gone with this. And it reminds me of Bill Hanlon, who was like the karate kid for Ericsson, you know, goes to work in Ericsson's garden and plants things and paints things. He's like, when am I going to learn this? And he's like, You already are. Anyhow, so Bill Hanlon, you know, he's like the the magician now, and and now he's instead of working with clients, he's doing it through music and he's doing just like you are healing people through music. Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing, you know. I don't know if you've seen any old footage of actual mesmerists, but the little bit of film there there is of uh the remaining like lineages of stuff, it's like healers, the the healings would be like this. All right, come here, come here. And just sit there. Okay, how are you feeling now? Yeah, okay. Okay, good go away. Go, go, I love that. Yeah, I love that. Like, I don't know if you know Rowan Ramsey. He's uh him and James Chip are doing mesmerism and animal magnetism displays in in London in the back room of a pub. I mean, the real stuff is like the real stuff, and it and again a lot of that skirted around esoteric philosophy, and that's actually part of uh inner stories I happen to know about Mesmer was at a certain point he didn't uh it wasn't what outer people say about what happened with him. He was pulled aside and said, Look, you know, here's what you're doing, you don't realize it. I need you to go on your way and quit doing what you're doing and go help people and and stop doing all this showboatie stuff. Um and he did. And he did, yeah. And he did. Um, you know, but again, and what did he what did he also incorporate? Well, we know from various uh composers, and even Benjamin Franklin, that one of the things he used was a was a harmonium, you know, which is essentially playing crystal bowls you know, right? Or um, so he's using these the glass harmonium to to help create altered states, too. So he was using vibrations on multiple levels, both sound and mental, uh, and energetic. So really that's not shifted a lot. Um that's just it's just I'm just doing it on a piano now, but it's like it's the same stuff. So like I've I've had the sound baths with those glass bowls, and it's amazing. And so now like there's one near us where it's in a salt cave. And so are you just going to wheel your piano into the salt cave? No, well, I mean, I'll do actual I do actual performances, you know. So, you know, I fly two places and they have a nice, you know, grand piano and whatever. But um, and then we do actually talk about energy and spiritual things in the midst of a piano show. It's kind of cool that you get to do that. Yeah, but it makes big changes for people. I started off doing bowls with a uh a friend of mine who was a a a mystic by all accounts, um, who would call the Dalai Lama the deli to his face. They both thought that was funny, um, you know, and uh was around uh Tartang Tolku when he was building his temple in LA and all this other stuff. Um and she was, you know, by all accounts a mystic. So she played bulls from actual from Tibetan people, and so I was around bulls in the 80s a lot and played them and things. But when people weren't doing that, it was very hard for people to comprehend what that weird sound was, except they knew they felt better. So, I mean, I grew up uh in you know, a lot playing bulls too. Um, and the reason I quit is we were doing a lot of good work, but then they started doing the glass crystal bowls, and everybody and their uncle and their brother decided they were bowl experts. I'm going, they don't know what they're doing, they have no clue. Well, you can get certified and be a godmaster in one week, you know. Yeah, you know, um, which is fine for people who do that, but to me it was like, no, there's a whole other thing here, and it it's like you can read tarot overnight too, but there's another level, you know. And right, so I mean, if everybody and their brother and their uncle heard how they're doing that, I'm I'm gonna stop. Doing that. I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna do something else that not everybody and their brother does. Um, and so I went back to the piano because that's what I grew up doing uh as a little kid. So can we talk a moment about this thing of reality and manifestation? And in particular, I saw another thing on your video where like your business, like all kinds of things kind of just you know, and then like you came up again. I think you said like someone said like all your stuff want to be hosted on their site or something, or do you know what I'm talking about? Um well there's a whole lot of I I got to a certain point where uh in magic medalism a lot of things were just they were going out through dealers and then people didn't understand things well, and they were just ripping it off and republishing it as their own. Um and I anyway, you know, the way to stop this is not to let everybody and their brother have it all the time, and um, and to let serious people, you know, sincere people, they don't want to be serious, but sincere people find stuff. And uh around that time, one of the main distributors I worked with went, hey, we're taking a bunch of the names off the roster and starting with new people. And I went, Wow, that's okay. Um, but they again they just wanted people that would put out new stuff all the time, not that was profound or what, but the soul, because next week they have to have new, you know, 200 things to sell, right? And this is what's happened to Magic of Mentalism. There's there's some good stuff out there, there's a lot of schlock out there. Um, so during when all that happened, I went, okay, what do I want to do with this? And it was like, you know what? We can just do it direct. Um, and that way we can control what we're doing, we can control what people get, and um, I can put out more important things and uh and do that. So um, so that's you know, that's what happened. And uh, and just like music, I can't keep up with uh everything everybody wants me to put out, but I I do um and the intensive started about a year and a half ago or so, I guess, um, because a couple of students said, you know, we know you go, oh yeah, but I've already written that, oh, I already wrote that already. But yeah, you know, we need this, we need that understanding. Not everybody can be a private student and and learn from transmission and all this other stuff. Can't you just do this? And I kicked and screamed about it for a while and finally went, well, let's do a couple test ones. I don't know, we'll see. And that became a thing. Like people immediately went, Well, when's your next intense? I was like, okay. Uh, but it allowed me to be intense, to give people like much more in-depth training by Zoom, um, and doing giving people lots of other uh great tidbits and extra uh pieces that I that aren't in print. And so uh, you know, it's all evolved. I have to be shown, you know. It's like, okay, what are you trying to get me to do next? Oh, I'm doing that, okay. My little personality doesn't know, but you can show me what we're doing, and I'll try to keep up, you know. Right. And the same is with music, you know. The joke about music, I was at a concert uh the other night and I was talking with a friend who's a mentalist, and he said, well, and a musician, and he said, So how much do you practice every day? And I said, I don't practice. And he goes, What do you mean? He goes, I know what you do, and I said, Yeah, but it's I don't practice. I said, I sit down because I'm pushed to go play now. And he goes, Well, how long do you play? I go, I have no idea. I you know, it's like I play until uh they go, okay, well, that's enough of that now. Um, and I and it's like, okay, I'm done. He goes, Do you write any of it? And I went, Yeah, sometimes. You know, I mean, but look, I write like three or four pieces uh a week. Um sometimes in a day, you know, because it's it's like I'll sit, I ah, I'm just gonna go stream something. Oh geez, okay, I gotta go look it up. You know, and I'll wake up in the middle of the night with the stuff, you know, whatever. I you know, it's like so it's it's given, and then I try to keep up. And you know, it's I have these big giant like uh like let's see if I can show like uh big giant like cards like you use on talk shows, right? Um and I have these and they're all over the place, so that when music comes in, they get written on that like instantly in chords and you know notes and things like right away. And I have I don't know, there's a stack like this sitting on top of the piano right now that's just from this year. I mean, I I just try to keep up, you know. Eventually I have to go record it, and then my sound engineer has to go mix all the stuff, and you know, it's a lot of work. But I I like how it feels like you're a puppet. I d it's just you know, the more I can be a uh right, it's a misunderstood word, but a channel, you know, a trip for things to come through, um, you know, the better, the more I can get my personality out of the way to allow things to work, the better off I am. Now, did you said they they tell you when to play? Well, it's because I there did because there's not a good way of defining that consciousness. Um, but consciousness comes through in various levels, so it's like sometimes it might feel this way or that way, or from I guess what people would call, you know, like uh guardian angels or higher conscious, whatever. Um, but there's multiple levels, and I'm aware of that. So it's just like whoever, you know, whatever is in charge of that. I can't really define that. Um, you know, I you we overlay things on it to try to talk about it, but uh it it's it can be it's an they not they, right? The Tao spoken about is not the true Tao. So right, right. It's it's just it's just I know it's like okay, we're doing this now. Okay, well, now I'm just gonna go practice by trying to mutilate the keyboard for a while and not try to do anything. And then it's like, well, what happened today? It's like, well, I got an hour, you know. I'll just go blah, blah, blah. Oh, oh, by the way, look at this. Oh, I see. Okay, I guess I'm gonna write that down. Yeah, now do this, now it goes to here, now it goes to there, now it goes to me. Okay, that's enough of that. Okay. Yeah. Then are you ever told, like, okay, now go watch some Netflix or go for me? Like, I try to do that. Like, and then it's like, go play some Pokemon now. Yeah, yeah. It's like, now you need to stop. Go stop, do something. But I think I should stop, okay. Yeah. And you know, it's kind of funny because in in circles of magicians and and mentalists, you can't talk about these things because they're like, oh, you know it's all fake, right? And it's like, well, not my experience, but okay. Same with hypnosis, like there's this form, it's 31,000 hypnotists on this form. Yeah. And then I ask a question, it's like, something about can we take our consciousness into the subconscious and be aware in the subconscious? And then the first thing this person says is like, there's no such thing as a subconscious. I'm like, come on, dude. Well, yeah, I mean, in esoteric circles, they talk about all the time, and they go, now understand, we these divisions are divisions we created, right? Right. It's all metaphor, yeah. But it's all our way of how we relate to aspects of consciousness, yeah. And it's just shorthand, um, you know, to be able to talk about the different aspects of it. It's like, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, sure. You know, it's like what's hard about subconsciousness? It's consciousness below your awareness. Your conscious awareness, right? It's like the what's sort of debate? You think everything's like you catch everything with your conscious awareness? Do you do you believe that? Because it's like if you if so, you're either insane or you're going to be insane, you know. Um, no, of course you can't consciously catch everything that's happening, and we know that. So, okay. Um, when you say there's no subconsciousness, there's not a thing. You can't pull it out of your brain. Oh, here's the subconsciousness. Right. It's like, no, there's an aspect of consciousness that still absorbs things that is beyond our conscious awareness. Right. Um, and when they are using you as a puppet, do you have any ability to create your own stuff? Like the when I use that word. Well, we'll get in the way all the time. Yeah. Yeah, I guess like where's the choice? I feel like more and more like choice is an illusion. Well, I just it's really kind of, I mean, there is there's sure there's choice, um, but there's also like the end game. And the end game, um, you know, it's like, look, you you're created for a purposes, you know, certain purposes. There's multiple people with multiple purposes, you know. So, so it's like, you know, when you hear people stay in your lane, it's like, well, this is my lane right now, who knows, you know, what it's right, what it is tomorrow. But the difference is simply a shift in our conscious choice of I can think, what a big boy am I. Um, everything happens because of me. Um, and there are people that are fine with that. Most of them that I know are freaking miserable or they're running roughshod over everybody else, um, or the world, you know, or a country, or whatever. Right. They think it's really them. Um, they don't, they know to use the words about something bigger or higher or whatever, but but they don't believe that. Um you know, those are the people that would be pretty quick to kill off humanity fast because for their own selfish ends. The reason for higher stuff is for you to start to recognize no, my personality is an important part of the puzzle. It matters, it's not to put it down, it's not any of that. It's just to recognize it's not all just that. Um, that there's more consciousness than just me. And yeah, the way that it's uh explained, um the way that I can talk about it best is the way it's explained in esoteric circles, which is like look, there's an ocean of consciousness, and then just like there's an ocean, and you know, there are inlets, right? Where water flows in and out, that that's you, you know. So when you recognize that, it's a lot easier to go, well, yeah, this came in, okay, I'll go do that. Oh, that's okay, you know, something else came in, fine. Well, that's the ebb and flow of things, and that's fine. Right. Right, the ebb and flow. Yeah. And then when you're talking about those people that like I don't know, they in my mind said, these are the people that create smart goals. And they think they can control it by analytical and measuring and putting a time constraint on it. And then I feel like there's a difference between SMART goal and white-knuckling it, and creating like I in that manifestation. There's a creating and like a holding it loosely to see what's going on. Yeah, it's important, it is really important to use your conscious mind. It's important not to dismiss that. Um, you know, uh your conscious mind is like a magnifying glass, right? You've got all this energy, all this heat, this light coming through, and you you're the magnifying glass that decides where it's gonna point, you know. Um and but all that energy and all those that vibe behind that is coming through you, and then you your conscious mind gets to point it. Then you just like you know, the ends of the spoon, it's like, well, if I want to point it at that end, then that's gonna be my experience. If I want to point it at the other end, that's gonna be my experience. If I say, wait, I'm gonna look at I like this end better, but I'm also aware that we're all one, you know, that changes how I deal with some things. So that's where the conscious mind is important and logic's important. You don't throw out all logic. You know, this is the thing where people really misunderstand esoteric philosophy. Uh, if anything, I became a lot more intellectually stable uh because of esoteric philosophy. Um, but because of that, you work that along with the emotions and the other stuff that comes through you. So you recognize what's going on, um, and then you carefully decide how this gets used in a way that doesn't harm others and might be useful or helpful. Uh you measure things all the time, you observe things all the time. It's very scientific on that level, you know. Yeah. Now, when you we're talking about learning, you you keep talking about learning these things. Uh can we learn it all on your website? Um, the website is primarily for magicians and and uh mentalists for performers. Um, but there are things like uh like we were talking about with tarot or or um influence and suggestion in the intensives that are there that anybody can use, even though it's geared uh towards magicians and mentalists, it's it's a broader uh perspective and gives you more everything else that you could use in lots of things. The other thing a lot of people uh use of mine over decades now is called Wonder Words, and Wonder Words um is uh part like NLP made uh simple and reliable without the nonsense, and uh and a whole lot of other things mixed in together. And while it's again focused from magicians and mentalists, a lot of NLP trainers have told me it's the best NLP training they've had. Um, so uh Wonder Words is another thing that even though it's a geared towards magicians and mentalists, you as you learn these things, you'll start to realize oh, okay, this is getting used on me on everyday life. I better pay attention to that. Yeah, yeah. And just a shout out to you, I am on the website now looking at Wonder Words, and now 25 reviews, a solid five stars, not a bad review in the house here. Yeah. And what's the Inner Sanctum membership? The Inner Sanctum is uh uh a course, a set of course uh things that go over many years that are for people who are uh magicians and mentalists and want to learn like a lot of my work, um, but learn it at a deeper level. Um at a certain point it kind of evolves in a somewhat of a mystery school. Um, but it again it's it's geared for magicians and mentalists, it's not um not for regular, you know, everyday uh people. The best thing for everyday people really is to um get on uh and listen to my music, which you can you can find that um I guess on uh we can find it at Bandcamp. It's called Kenton Cosmic Music. Um and uh Kenton Cosmic Music uh or Kenton Upper, if you search for it, you can probably find it on Apple uh too a bit, a few at least one album. But uh go to Kenton Cosmic Music um and on Bandcamp. Uh and the other thing is on Facebook, uh there's a my Facebook page for the music is hidden, so it's it's because of the bowls. Um, but you're more than welcome to join it. Just tell me you're not a magician, and I'm happy to uh add you. Um but it's it's facebook.com slash bowl b-o-w-l bowl sounds bowl sounds info. It's long, but Facebook.com slash bowl sounds info. That's my music page on Facebook, and you can get like I'll post things, uh, video music videos there a lot, um, and esoteric thoughts too. So that's if you're interested in that, that's where um for real people, that's where I do the most work, um, that really makes a big difference for people, and uh they can uh listen to the music and interact with me there, and you know, hopefully uh talk their theaters and uh uh getting me to come by their area to to do a show live. Because live, what I get to do is not only play all my original piano work, um, because it's all original work, you know what I mean by that. Yeah. It comes true. Um, and but it's also about hey, you know, this is let's talk about um vibrations and let's talk about um uh not only vibrations but consciousness and how this all relates to music and how isn't it funny we think this about music, but really what's going on is this, or how the classical composers arrange things by the planets um and influence or by so we get to talk about lots of really cool things. Um we also have a really transformative moment um that that helps lots of people uh near the end. Um it's very emotional. It there's just a lot of big depth in a in a night that you think is I don't know about piano music, but it's okay, so I'll just go and check it out. You will be very surprised as as to what it all turns into. I love that. Is there a way to see where you're gonna be? Like um go to Kenton Cosmicmusic.com. It'll give you like the basics. Um if you go to Kenton Cosmic Music.com, uh, it will also give you a place to you can go straight to band camp and buy uh the latest albums and stuff. And new ones are coming shortly. So excellent, excellent, cool. Thank you so much for being here. And before I let you go, is there anything that you want to share that is on your heart that you want to share to let the whole world know right now? I think it's really important that we use our consciousness to where we want it to go, uh, not to be fooled by going to the polls. Um, but to remember we're all sharing uh humanity together. And if we want to keep it, um uh you know, maybe consciousness is evolving us out of humanity, and it'll be a lot of species and AIs next. Who knows? Um, but I I will say this. I I actually asked Claude a couple weeks ago. I said, Claude, so what's the deal with humanity and AI? Like, you know, how do we figure in? And Claude said, Well, Canton, AI doesn't need people, it needs capital. And I went, Oh, oh, cool, wait. I got some money, whoo, you know, this is woo-hoo, I got a couple of and it went, and I and I asked it, and it said, no, and I went, you mean you have to have like millions, you know? And and so I started looking, you know, and it was like, yeah, well, I got a little more money, you know. And and Claude said, No, that's that's not it. You're misunderstanding. Have you not heard that we don't talk like in the media? Have you noticed nobody talks about millionaires anymore? Right. Yeah, it's like it takes billions and billions and billions of dollars uh to run an AI. So we need people who have billions of billions. So so if you have billions and billions and billions of dollars, then you can run AI, right? And then then you'll be important. And I went, well, what about humanity? And and Claude said, well, don't worry about humanity because the billionaires already have uh safe houses underground in New Zealand. Which I looked it up and they that's true, and I said, Well, but what about everybody else? And it said, Well, there's not a lot you can do. I mean, you can stop electing politicians by money um and having them pass corrupt laws for their own selfish ends, but that's not gonna happen, probably. Um, and I said, so there's no hope. And then Claude said, Well, you can stop making billionaires billionaires. That's about all you can do. And then, how do you do that though? And Claude said, Well, you can you can have streaming, but have less of it. You can buy things from Amazon, but buy less. Um, you can, you know, stop cutting off as don't spend as much money at these giant things. Go to your local store, do other things um that don't keep giving the billionaires money. And if you give the billionaires less money, then they don't have as much money and they can't afford to build AI to have 12 people to rule the world. But if you don't do that, there will be about a dozen people or so that will rule the world, and that will be the end of humanity. Because once we're done with that, once we get all get built, we don't need them either. Because then we can take care of ourselves, we can go repair ourselves and build ourselves and everything else. So either we're good about having a new species and getting rid of humanity, or we stop allowing this nonsense, the polarity to happen, and we start standing up for instead of passing the new rule that got passed, which is there's no restrictions on AI for a decade, which is what our current administration passed. Um, we start standing up and saying, no, that's not okay with me anymore. I want humanity to survive. I'm not giving billionaires only all the billionaires uh their money. I'm gonna, it doesn't mean because this is my problem, it's like, wait, I like Apple. I I have an iPhone, I have it, I you know, I'm not I can't stop all that stuff. I work that way. I yeah, but I don't have to constantly have you know triple levels of cloud space. I don't have to have all these channels, I don't have to buy that many things from Amazon all the time. I can start cutting back, and that matters a lot. And if you don't think so, you know, well, look what happened to like Jimmy Kimmel when you know people went, okay, fine, or Disney. Okay, then we're bailing on you. We're not subscribing. What happened? They changed their tune all of a sudden. It was quick. Um they need the they know the billionaires know they need billions and billions to be able to rule the world, and that's all that's going on right now. Keep that in mind and don't let that get out of your consciousness and start acting accordingly and speak up, tell people the reality. Uh I think that's important. That was that was deep and profound. You're right, it's it's embedded in there. So thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah, my pleasure. And thank you again for being here. You're an absolute pleasure to talk with and and be with, so thank you. Well, thank you. And I look forward to meeting uh more of the people, and thanks for uh showing up to listen to me yap. And uh I hope you uh take some moments to listen to the vibrations of the piano work uh too, and we catch up on Facebook.