Michael Watson: Evolutionary Hypnosis, the Three Principles, and Why Your Suffering Is Bogus

Michael Watson has been in the hypnosis world longer than most organizations have existed. As principal trainer for IACT and one of the field's quiet elders, he brings something rare: genuine perspective, zero ego, and a willingness to say what he actually thinks.

In this conversation, Michael and Ryan cover a lot of ground without rushing any of it. Michael unpacks his concept of Evolutionary Hypnosis — the idea that every client already carries the answer, and that our job is closer to Anne Sullivan reaching through the darkness for Helen Keller than it is to following a protocol. He talks about why Milton Erickson would have failed the IACT certification exam, why AI will eventually replace any hypnotist who thinks in protocols, and why the field's infighting comes down to the same thing every other fundamentalism comes down to: someone decided they had the right book.

He introduces the Three Principles — mind, thought, and consciousness — through the lens of a subway station. Thoughts are the trains. You don't have to board every one. The ones marked "to hell and back" can be let go. He learned this the hard way when the company he was training NLP for in the UK started falling apart and Jamie Smart told him, calmly, that he was just experiencing the effects of his thinking. He wanted to punch him in the mouth. He was also completely right.

They close on Mother Teresa declining an anti-war rally — but offering to attend a peace rally — and a client from 40 years ago in San Francisco who looked at Michael mid-session and said: we're just all poor sons of bitches trying to get through it. Michael still calls it the most Buddha thing anyone has ever said to him.

Three quotes from Michael worth writing down:

"If you just wait a minute when things are at rock bottom — it has to get better. And as it gets better, you have more resources to make worthwhile decisions instead of catastrophic ones."

"Experience is something that we do. Not something we're subjected to. Stuff happens, and it becomes good or bad after we've made a decision about it."

"Being miserable is optional. Your suffering is bogus. You can stop doing this right now."

Connect with Michael Watson: IACT: facebook.com/IACTNews Michael teaches stress management certification, master trainer programs, and board-certified hypnotist courses through IACT — reach out through the association for upcoming dates

Connect with Ryan DeJonghe / TranceWell: Website: trancewell.help Email: ryan@trancewell.help

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Welcome, friends. I'm so happy you're here. Thank you for joining. And if you're new here, thank you too. I hope you're gonna get a lot out of this because we got a very special guest today. Michael Watson. Welcome, Michael.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Well, hello. It's great to be here. How are you?

SPEAKER_03 0:19

Wonderful. And I just had a little tag here. You're like, so if we're talking in Harry Potter terms, I feel you're the Dumbledore of the International Association of Counselors and Therapists. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 0:32

That's good. It's really an interesting way to think about it. I'll I'll I'll take it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

So you're like the head wizard over there.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Yeah. Before there was a Dumbledore, actually, I I think.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Oh, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, like the legacy. This was the the OG Hogwarts.

unknown 0:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

What do you guys do over there? Like I haven't joined. Like I I got certification. Is there like reciprocal certifications? Or what do you guys do?

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Uh no, there is a well, yes, no. How do I say it? There used to be an organization, in fact, this might be useful for a bunch of people, actually. There used to be an organization called uh COFO, the Council of Professional Hypnosis Organizations. Uh I don't know if you're even aware of that. And it's I don't even think I think it literally does not exist at all anymore. But each of the organizations, so the National Guild and IACT and IMDHA and uh the American Board of Hypnotherapy and ACHE and everybody, each of the organizations had a representative to COFO. And uh and the advantage of that was that if there were like legal issues and things that came up, you know, we could share that all with all of our members, and you know, or if we needed to pull together some kind of a uh of an action plan uh you know for the whole hypnosis community, it was a good way for us to get organized for that stuff. And in those COFO days, there was a reciprocation agreement between all of the organizations. If you were a member of CO, if your organization was a COFO member, uh other COFO organizations you could join uh you know just as easily. Uh with uh with uh IACT and IMDHA both, if you aren't a member of them and you want to be, you can uh you can uh call and let them know that you want to become a member. Of course, you'll pay a membership fee just like you would for any other organization. And, however, you would be required to pass a test. Um 25 question, multiple choice. Um and and one that one that w I I hope we're gonna get into a little discussion about training and hypnosis because this this this certainly uh feeds right into it. Um Melissa Tears and I a number of years ago uh approached Robert Otto at uh at IACT because we were looking at the exam that was being used for certification at the time, and we realized that um Milton Erickson would have failed the exam. In fact, and not so much that he would have failed the exam insistently. Uh I'm sure he would have known what the right answers were because it wasn't a rocket science kind of test. Um, but on the other hand, there were things that the test was implying that he definitely wouldn't have agreed with. So we said something has to be done about this. We need, you know, we need a better exam. Um, and I was afraid, of course, and uh ready to duck. I I wish that I hadn't been afraid or tried to duck. I was afraid that what was going to happen was I was going to be asked to create something. You know, and I wasn't prepared for that, but but Melissa had me all fired up, you know. You know, if we went uh and um instead what Robert did was he uh put together a committee. I w I wish he would have just picked me.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

We put together a worse, and creating something is a committee, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

And everybody on the board submitted, you know, uh some questions for the exam. And then the questions as they came in were distributed to everybody else on the board and then discussed by internet ad nauseum, uh, and and it went on forever and ever. And finally, uh to satisfy each other, we ended up with six different exams and uh that seemed to reflect more one style or another of the uh of the of the teaching. But but anyway, yeah, so so you can join the organization. You also can join without the exam as a professional member. They have that, um, which is just uh you know, somebody who isn't a certified hypnotherapist by the organization, but uh, you know, but you can be a member that way. And uh, and what do we do? Well, like every organization, we have conferences uh and uh and we um have uh chapters uh kind of all over the country. Um uh Karen Hand and I started the virtual chapter. Well, actually, I started the virtual chapter um a little bit earlier, and at first it was even a call-in uh a call-in show. Uh in fact, uh a lot of people were just on audio uh on it. It's been it's been that long. I mean, it's been a long time. Uh Zoom was not yet out of the box when we started. And then Karen has joined me, and uh, and for any, you know, anybody watching us that knows Karen Hand, she's lovely, isn't she? And for anybody watching that doesn't know Karen Hand, she's lovely. So uh she used to be a DJ for WLS in Chicago, and uh so she knows how to she knows how to be online and she knows how to carry on about just about any topic, and uh and I I certainly couldn't do it without her. So anyway, we have things like that. Um and um, you know, and then there are a number of programs through the year. Um I teach a stress management certification program that uh certifies people through IACT as certified stress management consultants. I teach a master trainer class, you know, for people that want to become trainers of hypnosis. And um uh oh, and then we have a board certificate board certified hypnotist program like all I think all the organizations do. All the certifying organizations do, at least, and uh and I and I run that uh a couple of times a year. Uh so so those are things that are available, you know, through through membership in the associations. I really believe, and I I'm glad that this that this came up actually, Brian, because I really I really believe this is an important thing. Um I'm not saying this as a commercial for IACT because I really don't care what organization it is. What I what I I mean I I do right forgive me, Ayact. I you know but but but that's not the the point that I'm trying to make here. What I know is that there are a whole lot of people when I first started looking at hypnosis, I was the only one in the village, you know. I and and uh uh I think it it really is a wonderful thing for us to be able to create avenues in which we can connect with one another and to do things, you know, uh in community and and cooperatively. So uh so I'm all for I'm all for anything that brings us together.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

And so the question is, how do we do that? Because like you mentioned, with let you got people sitting at the table in a committee trying to create a test, and every and now you come away with six tests. So, how do we come together in collaboration? Like we were talking another time about this video that surfaced online, and it was either a hypnosis video in an NLP committee or NLP video in a hypnosis committee, and everyone was like, No, that's not NLP, no, that's not hypnosis, and it was like all this infighting. So, how do we go from infighting to actual contribution and listening to one another?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

I think we just have to come to the recognition of the fact that most of us are idiots from the get-go. And and and and not to assume that we've got some kind of a we've got the right way and somebody else doesn't, but to but uh but to figure out everybody that I know that does hypnosis, and there are people that do some pretty weird things, by the way, and call it hypnosis. And and I guess uh nobody's asking me to vote about that. So I guess I need to be all right about it. The relevant question is is are they doing work with people that makes a difference? And if they are, if it actually works for God's sake, then it's ridiculous for the rest of us to be uh so high and mighty that we're gonna tell them, well, that can't that can't work. That's stupid, that's ridiculous. Well, it works, you know, and it has worked since the beginning of time. People have been doing stuff that made a difference. What one of the things that uh it's kind of weird because I I don't want to sound like I'm anti-science because I'm not. I I really am not. But but here's the deal is that science describes the things that happen in nature. Science is a descriptor of natur of nature, you know. And uh it it shouldn't be in how do I want to say it? I don't want to say the wrong thing. I'm being very cautious now with my words.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Well, that's what I'm wondering. Like, where does that fear come from?

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Well, I think maybe cautious.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Like what what happens when you say what's on your mind?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Oh gosh. Well, it's the danger online. If you say it online, people are gonna call you a poo-poo head or something.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Right. Right. Right. So that's that's the thing. Like, where do we get to the point where we can actually collaborate with one another without the fear of being judged or called a poo-poo head or whatever?

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Well, look, if if you have done anything with a client that has been useful, and if I actually give a rat's ass about being good at what I do, I'm gonna want to find out what how did that work? What is it that made what you do work rather than you know being the fundamentalist that says, here's the, you know, here's the deal. Stephen, my my uh my my lovely favorite teacher, Stephen Gilligan, um uh often talks about what he calls the danger of fundamentalism. Right. And and here's what he means by that. That that there is kind of one, well, fundamentalism, by the way, well, of course, we'll most of us know this word as it associates with religion. But it's not just that. It certainly isn't just that. It it suggests that in this field that there is one kind of official way, you know. Um and uh and and usually, by the way, that way is contained in a book. Like, for example, in the field of psychology, it might be the DSM. You know, um, and this is this is the right stuff. If you want to know what the truth is, you know, you will read it in this book. Um and and the and not and and the book is not open to input.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Which is kind of funny because we do have at least 150 more ways to be crazy this year than we did last year. Yeah. Nonetheless.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Yeah, it's just like the dictionary keeps expanding.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh which is which is which is kind of one of the ways that uh professional psychologists keep uh folks like uh non-licensed people uh out of their field. It's like uh it's like Ponce de Leon sticking a flag in Florida. Yeah. You know, say, oh, we'll give it a name and then it will be a diagnostic condition.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Exactly. You know, discovering a new star in the sky. Yeah, it's it's mine. I'm gonna name it after me, and no one can have it.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Yeah, or build an arch.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

Oh, but that's another that's something else entirely. Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

The thing is, we just have to be willing to be curious about anything that works. Right. Uh hopefully, through looking at what other people are doing, no matter how ridiculous it might seem to us, right? If it works, I still want to know how did how did that happen? What is what is it that's underneath this?

SPEAKER_03 12:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

That is also underneath what I do. What do we what do we have in common? And what we what we've learned to do is to sort for differences. Right. Instead of to sort for similarities. And and I so when you say, yeah, how do we bring ourselves together? Well, just become interested in coming together. Right, you know, uh and and finding out what do you got that that uh you know that that I would really like to know about? What can I celebrate about you rather than how can I how can I position myself to be better than you are, and uh, you know, uh and and all of that stuff that uh that stops us from growing.

SPEAKER_03 12:39

Here's the funny thing, because when you're talking about coming together and you're like meaningful work, I feel like there's a portion of hypnotists, therapists that'll come with this client was able to resolve this issue, or this client was and then you have another group, and their definition of meaningful work is I was able to charge the client two thousand dollars, therefore I did meaningful work.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Yeah, well, it meant something to somebody, didn't it? You know, and by the way, no, this is gonna sound like heresy, probably. In a way, uh, I think uh if I'll tell you what, if I pay somebody $2,000 for a piece of change work, I'm gonna get the change. You know, maybe that's very motivating, maybe that's actually the method. I don't know. Um, but my my real concern about that um is that when we start looking for building building our practice in a way that only attracts high-end clients, get yourself, you know, six figures in the first month and all of that. Well, that's really nice if if what you're doing it for is for you, you know, uh for you and for your family and for your enrichment, that's great for you. Um and and you're not going to get that money, well, probably not going to get that money from too many people that can't afford to give it away anyway. You know, so finding high-end clients and bilking them. Uh, by the way, what is six thousand dollars to you know, some rich cat?

SPEAKER_02 14:14

You know, uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

But but I also you and I have one thing in common, I know, and that that is in our background we both have ministry.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Um, and and I'm I'm thinking, can you imagine Mother Teresa with a swipe card? You know, with Mother Teresa took Square down to the Ganges with her and uh you know and say I'm only gonna I'm only gonna see people that uh Yeah Yeah, man, when I see that, when I see people advertising, you can learn this and charge so much money.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

I feel like the anger of Jesus flipping over the tables like come on guys, what is it you're you know, like that anger that one time like we all look at the old testament and see the angry God killing people, and that was like the first time we really gotta see Jesus like lose his cool. And I know he didn't lose it, you know, like I was all purchased at the same time, you know, like man, even Jesus gets mad.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah, well, he certainly certainly, yeah, it it it it's a it's an incredible scene in the scripture, there's no question about it, and and uh and dramatic and reminds us, by the way, and and and you and I get mad once in a while too, probably.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

Oh yeah, yeah, I'm the anger king.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Yeah, oh are you are you good at it?

SPEAKER_03 15:38

Oh I'm really good at anger, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Oh, good, good, good.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

Yeah, I I thought I had I used to be a Marine, yeah, United States Marine. So yeah, they they made sure we we stayed angry.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Well, it's hard for me to believe because you're such a pleasant guy to talk to us, but uh but I'll but I'll take that. Well, there you go. Yeah. Yeah, but but I think that this is really something important for us all to learn is to just be able to to look at the world with enough curiosity to go, what can I how can I gain value from this and how can I gain value from this that and and how can I use that whatever I gain from it to express, so here's the word values coming back again, to express back out into the world the things that I value.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

What I mean is I I think we're missing that, right? Well like I think we're stuck at that first step. How can I get value? I feel like we, society, even me, am not saying enough. How can I give that value back? How can I transform it and give it back?

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Well uh I I I don't know. Uh I don't I I don't know that we are stuck there, Ryan. I I think that that one by one, because this this we thing is kind of an interesting illusion, like everybody we're all gonna come around starting at 6.15, you know, this evening. But I think one by one we start to notice if I would like what I do to be even better, then what I need to do is to let myself be open to more ways of looking at it, to more viewpoints, to to finding out everything I can find out from anybody that has anything to say on the subject.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

You know, uh, and to appreciate the fact that, you know, that they're out there. But but I think also we are we and this is I think this is a we, this probably is like everybody at some level, we're all struggling with our own insecurities. You know, and we all want to be significant. Uh and sadly, what we have learned is the significant people are the folks that are better than the insignificant people, and I want to be one of them. And and in fact, I'm going to show you my significance by telling you why you are wrong about everything that you think and how I've got the real answer for you. And that's a little bit uh uh it it doesn't make the world a very wonderful place to be in.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

Right. Everyone's trying to be more significant than the other.

unknown 18:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

Where does that come from? Because bringing it back to religion, like is that like is that implanted in us as human beings to strive to be significant?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Well, I I mean i it it was implanted in us from human beings to strive to survive, and and I think anciently, sometimes survival had to do with who was gonna be better with the club, you or the other guy. Right. You know, uh and and uh and and in many cases I'm not sure that we have really matured beyond the uh uh the advancements of our society with regard to that.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

That is facts. The two words that popped up in my head is you mentioned the club, so fear, and then before that scarcity, like fear and scarcity seems like it's causing a lot of issues here.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

But how do we how do we shift that so that way I feel when we don't when we feel that we have enough, then we can feel more courageous to be curious.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

I I think we've just got to stop deluding ourselves with the idea that it's it's difficult to shift that. You wanna you wanna get curious about everything that's going on around you? You actually could start doing that at 6.15 this afternoon.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

I mean, I'm serious about that. You really could if you if you just let yourself know that, oh, wait, here's this here's this other way to to move through the world. Let's try that on for an afternoon and see if it works out well. And if it does, I'll I'll keep it into the evening. Um, and life becomes wonderful when all of the things around you are fascinating because there's something unusual about them that you haven't been noticing.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

Um but it's I like how you say like try it on, like they're clothes. I don't know if that's an ego or a persona. You're like, let me try on the curiosity persona. All right, now let me try on the I am Mr. Significant Persona.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Well, by the way, it comes from St. Paul. You know, there's this deal about the whole armor of God you might have heard of, for example. And this interesting notion of uh I think it sounds like an early NLP technique. You know, I used to do a seminar called channeling your or or or uh not channeling, how did I say it? Uh yeah, maybe it was channeling your your inner mighty mouse. You know, right. Um and basically it was a swish pattern and uh you know, or or something, but it was it was just uh this lovely idea that you can uh you can step into something different and experience another world anytime you're actually ready to let go of the other one.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Yeah, so that that's a great point. It brings up to my mind when I was doing street work with hypnosis, I would step in the persona of Loki, the trickster god. I had the godlike powers and the ability to be playful with people, and that worked. And then there's the part in me that says, okay, do I need to commit to a bit in life? Like I like putting on different personas, like the persona of an insurance salesman, and the persona of the guy that works at a hospital, and the persona of the guy that does a podcast. Like I feel like I'm all these things. Do we have to pick one or can we just play with all of them?

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna wear a different outfit to the gay pride parade than you know, than I wear to some other venues.

SPEAKER_03 21:34

Like the IACT conference.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

Yeah, well, and actually maybe we could, maybe you could wear it to the uh we could actually.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Well we could. Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's one of the cool things that I like about IACT. We could. I I you know. Um but yeah, so yeah, so we we have the a wardrobe of choices, you know. And uh and and I think that we make a we always make a choice about what it is that we're the same way that we choose what we're gonna wear, we also make a choice about which which self, which part of me or w am I gonna bring into this interaction or that interaction. There's some times when you know your job is to be serious and focused and and at least to to make it appear as though you give a shit about what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

You know, and there are gonna be other times when the real job is to keep yourself as light and playful as possible, et cetera, et cetera. Now, this is what I this is one of the things that I like about NLP. As soon as I saw NLP, the first thing that I realized was here's this notion of stepping into a different state and having it.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

You know. It's like NLP is a masquerade party. I'm sorry, so who's NLP is like a masquerade party?

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Well, it is like a masquerade party. Well, and guess what? Life is like a masquerade party. Right. You know, and NLP pointed it out. Um, so so that you you know, you perhaps know about the circle of excellence, which I think most people know as a you know, fundamental evidence. It's a fundamental thing in early music programming. But it's it's this simple idea that over there is this other way of being. Uh uh to make it fit with what we're saying. I'm not describing it as it actually is presented usually. But there's this other possibility. And uh I can stand out here, I can look at it, I can think about it, I can imagine how that would work out in the world. And if I like the way that it looks, I can actually just step into it and let myself feel that I can associate into it. Now, that's the kind of thing that we're doing in hypnosis with people all the time. Except when we do it in hypnosis, we sort of do it with our eyes closed, and you know, and you gotta have the the hypno ritual to the ritual.

SPEAKER_03 23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

But the truth of the matter is, as far as neurology is concerned, uh you're expi you're you're making an internal adjustment that allows you to operate in a in a particular way, uh, and and you learn very quickly that you can change that whenever you want. Look, if you think about something that delights you, just enjoy thinking about something that delights you is going to change your state. And if you think about some impending horror uh that could be visited upon us at any moment, uh that's going to change your state. So what it is that you're running inside of here determines the way that you experience the world. John Grinder said something I think is really important, and it's one of the things folks miss from NLP, is that um, you know, people tend to think that language describes experience. But as a matter of fact, at least according to John and other linguists, Noam Chomsky would agree with this as well. Uh, language creates experience. The way that we describe something is in fact how we experience it. Um, and the describing part comes from us.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

You know, we that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

We immediately evaluate a situation based on whatever kind of criteria it is that we're holding, and depending on how that evaluation comes up, we have the opportunity to feel miserable about it or to feel wonderful about it, or you know, or whatever it is. But what we fail to recognize is it's because of the criteria that we're holding up and and what we've decided to do with that.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

Well, I'm wondering now, it feels like we're talking about that the turbulent times and sadness and anger, or where our vision becomes narrow to the point where we don't realize we have a choice anymore. We feel that this is our identity, this is our lot in life. How do we realize in those moments when things are so stressful that we have a choice?

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Well, I I I think that this is actually something that we have to um that we have to automate uh through through through repetition. We catch ourselves whenever we can. So I I was introduced to the three principles, Ryan, and I I know I I said I wanted to get there, and this this it will be part of your evolutionary hypnosis, the three principles. Oh no, so let me let me go there and then and then do the three principles as well. I will go there, but but but I will tell you, um um uh uh uh uh the the thing about the three principles that I want to say now, and I know it's ahead of ahead of bringing up the topic, but the thing is that it made it's this interesting sort of approach to change, except it doesn't have any techniques. And so when I when I was first exposed to it, I was like, well, yeah, but what am I supposed to do? You know, just just as you said it a minute ago. Sure, I know I could probably be any way I want to be in any context, but when I'm angry or when I'm this or somebody has triggered me, you know, or or whatever it is, um the thing is that it it's it's it's it's more philosophically based. But it's it's a philosophy that if you hang out with it inside your head long enough, you start to notice when it is that you're doing what doesn't work for you. You know, and when you catch it's it's about catching yourself in the act. If I know if I know that there is a better me available than may have slipped down into some bad place, it's not until I catch myself in that bad place and go, fuck, I should I don't need to be here.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Right, yeah. Then how do we catch ourselves?

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Because I know that there's another choice, then I can just do it.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

And how do you catch yourself is by learning to notice when you don't like the way that you feel. You know, if you're feeling angry, or if you're feeling righteous, or if you're feeling, you know, whatever it is, or or I or somebody somebody has wronged you, and I'm never going to forgive them, I'm never going to forgive them, I'm never going to forgive them. Well, that's great. So you can feel freaking miserable for the rest of your life and and and think that it's because that other person was so terrible. But you have abused yourself a whole lot worse than somebody who isn't even in your field of vision anymore.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

You know, and and and carried it for years and years.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

Well, I feel like if that's the case, if we've been carrying it, like if I've been carrying a hurt for years, I feel like I was developed a pain tolerance of I'm hurting myself by not forgiving someone, and now I no longer feel the pain of that because I've been so used to it. So, how do we find the pain that we've become so used to?

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Well, oh, you know, it this sounds like the tree that falls in the forest, Ryan. It are we, you know, if we're not feeling the pain, then it isn't there, I promise you. Right. Seriously. And and and and I think that's one of the places where we've gotten far too scientific in our well, oh no, it's it's it's held in your cells and it's held in your okay, sure. But the real question that's significant is I'm gonna get together with my family this afternoon, and how do I want to carry myself through that?

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

You know, uh not not what do I want to be able to blame it on or any number of things. The bottom line is do I really have the resources available to start experiencing life differently right now? And if I do, I I think I'd rather just take that choice instead of having somebody say, well, let's let's do the forgiveness process first and all this other stuff. Uh I don't I don't really like working on myself. No, I'm serious about that. You know, uh I I like giving expression to who I am, and I don't like I don't like censoring myself. I don't like holding myself back. Um and whenever your your barometer, your your the your the barometer of your uh of the quality of your thinking is your emotional experience. If you don't like the way that you're feeling, that's a sign that you need to change what you're doing inside because you are generating that feeling.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Got it. Now, does this go back to I didn't mean to bring you off you were talking about the three pillars.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

The three principles. Yeah, let's go back. Let's go back. I want to talk about uh uh about evolutionary hypnosis, and then I'll uh and then I'll come back to three principles because it's sort of evolutionarily kind of how I was exposed to them. The notion of what I call evolutionary hypnosis, um, and to some degree it overlaps quite a bit with what Stephen Gilligan calls generative hypnosis and generative trance, and and people talk about that quite a lot. Um, it is inspired uh by some things that I learned from Stephen Gilligan, at no question, uh, and um and uh of all people, Helen Keller. Uh more so not Helen as as her teacher, Ann Sullivan. The thing is that Helen writes in her diary, uh uh I I have it in my manual, you know, and stuff, and I wish that I had the script in front of me. But she writes about the day that she met her teacher and how her whole life changed on the day that she met Ann Sullivan. Helen had had numerous teachers before Anne. And um, you know, and they all struggled to try to figure out what to do with this little girl because she was uh, well, of course she was angry, of course she was frustrated, uh she was a brilliant, brilliant little girl, uh, kind of lost in this white darkness that she describes. And um she was so smart, as a matter of fact, she knew how to navigate around the Keller family farm by her sense of smell. You know, I mean, you know, this is pretty good for a six-year-old. Uh and and so when when Anne came, um, I think Anne saw something in Helen um that that that is the basis for how I think about evolutionary hypnosis, and that is that there is within you, Ryan, and within everybody listening to this, there is uh a Wunderkin, there is a bright, there's a brilliance that wants to have expression in the world. And it's trying like hell to get out, and life keeps interfering. Right, you know, trauma comes along, you know, and it doesn't uh and it doesn't get out. But it is the natural process of evolution for that to come forward. So our job is uh Milton Erickson said, referring to clients in psychotherapy, uh, or psychiatry rather, he said, our clients are our clients because they have lost rapport with their own unconscious mind. Now that's a real interesting statement because what it suggests is everything will be alright if you just could keep rapport with your own unconscious mind. And maybe the most important thing that we do with our clients while we are addressing their issues is we help them develop a relationship between their their inner mind and their expression in the world. Um to me that's absolutely crucial. So, so Helen or Ann Sullivan, I believe, when she saw Helen, uh, unlike the other teachers that had come before her, she said to herself, I know you're I know you're in there, little girl, and goddammit, I'm gonna do whatever I have to do to bring you out. Um so yeah, so we're in the business of outing people. Uh uh and I think that's uh that's wonderful. Um your client was smart enough to know before they came to see you that something was amiss. There was a disturbance in the force.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Right. So they show up and they say, Hey, the force is disturbed, and you say to them, take a moment. Yeah, you know, uh to uh settle, settle in, settle down, and uh you know notice what's going on in there. Um and and to me, uh I don't it when it comes to evolutionary hypnosis, I evolutionary hypnosis as I think of it is is entirely client-driven. And I don't just mean uh client-centered or uh I'm trying there are different ways that people talk about this. So I I've heard somebody say, well, yeah, I'm a client-centered hypnotist, and I'm like, well, what do you mean by that? And they say, well, for instance, you know, if the client uh if the client speaks in uh visual language, then I'm gonna talk to them visually. And I'm like, I I don't think that's client centricity, I think that that's good manners. I you know, and and and it's how they get rapport, you know, and all of that stuff. But but when a client comes to see you, um, oh gosh, this incredible thread that I was looking at the other day online again about uh um a client who was having anxiety, and the person writing the thread had the idea that um, and I and I'm still not sure yet where this idea came from, that this client had been sexually abused when he was a child. Um because it doesn't appear, by the way, um it literally doesn't appear from the description that the client ever gave her that information.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

So but but because she thought that that was the thing that was behind it, then she had all kinds of ideas about what it was that she should do. Uh because this is what you always do with those kind of people.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

You know, like follow the protocol, go in the fire and cabinet, see what the protocol is.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Yeah. Well, the the interesting thing about protocols, if you want to do it that way, AI's gonna take your job next week.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

You know, we don't need you anymore. You know, that there's you know what what's you know, put type in the name of your issue and uh you know, we'll we'll uh we'll give you the protocol.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

Yeah, and then with uh yeah, you know AI would probably be the only one that could keep up with the DSM's growth. You know, like oh yeah, the new protocol.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Yeah, yeah, and you know, and and by the way, I'm not bashing AI. I I love AI, actually. I think it's really there's it really is great potential.

SPEAKER_03 36:43

If we're going to run protocols, then AI would do a great job at it.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Sure, sure. Uh you know, uh it's it's like um it's just the contemporary uh you can get an AI to write a script for you, you know, uh, and then you can read it over and over again to your client. But I'm like, then you don't really need any hypnosis training, you just need to learn how to read. You know, that's that's not it. It's about how can I be with you in the way that allows who you are to come forward uh and uh uh in a way that uh that uh uh moves you more easily through that problem situation that you brought in to begin with.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

And is this where the three principles come in?

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Well, I think this is one, yeah, this is a good place for them to come in. The three principles is something that um uh and it's uh it's out there for everybody to see, and I hope you will look after it, uh look into it. Um my friend Jamie Smart was the one who most recently reminded me of the three principles, and uh actually that reminder was probably already about 20 years ago. But um but originally I was living in Northern California, and there was a group of old hippies uh up in the North Bay. I was living in San Francisco, up in the North Bay that um had an open meeting, and they were talking about um something that at that time they were calling the psychology of mind, not to be confused with the science of mind and you know, with the religious science. Every time every every once in a while, when I mention it, people go there, and I'm like, no, no, that's not what it was. But it was the psychology of mind. I didn't really understand a whole lot about it. I went to this lecture, and the guy said something to me that I thought was uh, you know, curiously potentially true. You know, I best I could say one of the things that he said was, now mind you, these were all working therapists, right? Who were working with a really difficult clientele, as a matter of fact. Um uh he says, Life goes like this, you know. Uh I'm watching the screen to make sure. Up and, you know, uh curve. Oh, well, look at this. It's done it again. It's gonna zoom back out. That's the thing that I that I know it does, uh, but uh but it's all right. Life goes like this. It goes up and down, up and down, up and down. And when it's at the bottom, when things are really at their worst, this seems to be the time that we make some of the most far-reaching decisions in our life. I'm gonna quit my job, I'm gonna leave my family, I'm gonna jump off the bridge, I'm gonna, you know, whatever it is, you know, when things are just absolutely the worst that they can be.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

And what the what the uh what the guy was suggesting was if you just wait a minute, you know, it's gotta get better than it's rock bottom. And and as it gets better, you have more resources available to be able to make some worthwhile decisions about what you're gonna do rather than knee-jerk reactions that could be catastrophic. So that in it in and of itself, that seemed interesting, it seemed useful, uh, you know, and I remembered it, I thought, nice people, you know, cool old, you know, uh hippie commune of uh psychotherapists. Then uh then I didn't really think about it for for much longer. A friend of mine, uh therapist named David Brady, shared some information with me about it a little bit later. Um, and he had evolved into this thing called um uh health realization. And the idea was that health is intrinsic. Uh physical health, but mental health as well, is intrinsic to us unless something you know gets in the way. Uh, and it was about really allowing that which was natural to come forward. So seemed to be a little bit connected to what I was thinking about with regard to uh evolutionary hypnosis as well, that the answer is in there, you know, not in not in the therapist, not in the protocol, but you know, inside the client. But I didn't pay too much more attention to that. And then I went to work for Jamie Smart and uh I was training uh NLP in the UK. Uh Jonathan Altfeld had actually preceded me into that that uh that organization before before I was doing it. Uh, and then I did it for a number of years. And uh and then Jamie sold the organization, and he sold it to a guy who uh, you know, nice, nice enough fella, in fact, uh really great in the sense that he he took me all over England. I I was spending almost six months, like back and forth, you know, six months there and six months here for for several years, and uh, you know, and we got to go everywhere, but when this new guy took over, he really didn't know anything about running a seminar business. Uh and um he was a rich cat who uh ran an IT company, and uh and uh Jaguar Land Rover was his primary client and you know he had been doing well, you know. And he had attended some NLP training that uh that Jamie and I had done, and and uh he thought, gosh, it'd be really kind of nice to own an outfit like this. And Jamie was thinking about selling salads, so so this happened. And then everything started falling apart. Classes weren't being promoted, all the things, all the things that it takes for for me to start working inside, and telling myself, this really sucks, this is terrible, and you know, and and and developing a really bad attitude. And uh so I went to Jamie, who was still peripheral. I don't quite r know what their relationship was, but he still had some little bit of impact and what was going on with the company. I think he was getting uh some sort of a residuals for a while or something. And I said, Jamie, Jamie, the sky is falling. You know, except I said it much more hysterically than that. You know, Jamie, Jamie, the sky is falling, this guy, yeah, you know, and uh and Jamie looked at me and he said, You know, Michael, he said, You're just you're just experiencing the effects of your thinking. I wanted to punch him in the mouth.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Of course. My immediate reaction was, pace before you lead. You know, please at least say poor baby once.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Well, you know, but uh Michael, you're experiencing the effect of your thinking. And you know, he was of course he was absolutely right about that. This the experience that I was having, the panic, the anxiety, all of that stuff was the result of of movies that I was making up and playing in my head and with just the right soundtrack and all the, you know, and all the all the good stuff to make it as miserable as uh as it could possibly be, as frightening as it could possibly be.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

And it's like, oh wait, I I it it was like the day the light bulb went on over the top of my head. It's like, oh, I'm I'm doing this. Experience is is something. That we do. You know, uh, not something we're subjected to. That's a whole different deal. Stuff happens and it becomes good or bad after we've made a decision about it, after we pondered it and calculated it and decided what we're going to do inside about it. And you know, we know there are some people that really love some things that there are some other people that really don't like at all. Right. And I'm not just talking about Italian food.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Right. And then you get to some people that don't like chocolate, and you're like, wait, what? Like that, you surely can't be human if you don't like chocolate.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

I've got a protocol to fix you for that.

SPEAKER_03 44:41

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for $2,000, I'll make you like chocolate. Yeah. All right. So do we talk about the three principles? Like to me, I was looking for one, two, three.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Okay, well, yeah, I guess because what and that's funny. When I first heard about them, and people are saying, well, what are the three principles? So here's what they are. Um because I didn't really understand at first, and I'm not even sure. But but anyway, yeah. So the three principles are the principle of consciousness, or as they used to say back in the day, consciousness. Okay. Um and consciousness, of course, is that thing that enables us to be aware of the stuff that's going on around us. It's as simple as that. Not not a complicated uh Eastern, you know, theological description of consciousness, but consciousness, uh, the ability to be aware. Um, and then there's the principle of thought. Uh, and thought, by the way, is that freight train that is running through your head with one idea after another after another after another. If you have inner dialogue, you know, that it's the thing that everybody tries to kick out in meditation. Right? Okay. And it's and it's and it's constant, okay? Uh, or relatively constant. Um, and then the third principle is the principle of mind, and mind is a little bit different. Mind seems to be now. This is Michael Watson. This is not an official teaching about the three principles. To Michael Watson, the word mind should have a capital M on it. You know, it is something that's a little bit bigger than me uh and my awareness. It is the place the insight comes from. And and by the way, the the the distinction, and you notice this, uh, you know, you may get an insight, and uh, but it wouldn't be fair to say that that was something that you thought up. Because if I were to say to you, Ryan, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a minute, and while I'll wait, but uh think up an insight for me. You know, it's absurd, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 46:41

Right. And then the question is, how do we tell the difference between the thought and the mind? Because it seems like the mind is quieter than thought.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Yeah, well, well, and thought, uh you know, thought is highly overrated. Right. But but okay, so so let me give you an example of this that I think is a is a great metaphor that I saw a long time ago. So I didn't make it up, but it's the one that I tell everybody all the time. Imagine that you're in Manhattan and you're in the subway station. Okay, and you're, you know, you're waiting to wait for your train, and a train comes in and it goes out, and another train comes in and it goes out, and another train comes in and it goes out, and then finally the train comes in that's headed where you want to go. So you get on that train. Right? The thing with thinking is we've got this crazy idea that you got to get on every damn train that comes into the station and ride it. Right. And and and uh and and so if a train pulls in while you're there in a subway station, a train pulls in, and on the front of the train where it says the destination, it says to hell and back, I think it's perfectly okay to say, you know, I took that one yesterday. And I think, you know, today I I'd rather not. I'm just gonna let that go. Um we've got to train ourselves to not ruminate, you know, that that when when shit comes through that we don't want, well, then let it go. You do not need to board that train that day, you know, uh, and and you know, and get on one that's headed where you that you want to go. It really is that simple about observing the thoughts that move through your mind and choosing which ones you want to run with.

SPEAKER_03 48:29

Um yeah, I feel like the unconscious is the one that says, Oh, the and the so the thoughts are the trains, and the unconscious is the one that says, I want to get on all of them. And then the mind's like, here's there's a right one for you.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Well, I don't think your conscious has any will at all. I uh you know, I I think your conscious just is aware. I mean, at least in this model, we're just talking about consciousness as being awareness. But there's some part of us that seems to be, in fact, you're right, attracted to uh well some people wouldn't know that they were alive if they weren't suffering. You know, somehow or another, we are attracted to strong emotional experiences. You know, um I just wish we would devote nearly as much energy at being attracted to things that delight us uh as we are things that horrify us. You know, Mother Mother Teresa, back to oh, back to her. I've I've got like four or five favorites and Mother Teresa and uh you you found them for me. Mother Teresa and Helen Keller are two of them. Um uh uh uh I I'm starting to lose my train of thought.

SPEAKER_03 49:40

Speaking of trains, yeah, yeah. We're talking about the mind and then uh pick the a lot of us are drawn to the trains of emotion, the big emotions, and then you're talking about training the mind to or training the ability to um I don't know, you're saying Mother Teresa had some insight here. Well, Mother Teresa.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

Mother Teresa was a Benedictine nun, okay? And and uh and I was a Benedictine monk. So I I I get this. The the the rule of Saint Benedict says, um, sexistly so, we have to remember where it came from in a different age, but the rule of Saint Benedict says, receive all men as Christ. So somebody comes knocking on the monastery door in the middle of the night, you know, the monks will take him in and take care of him and you know, and and you know, and send him and feed him and whatever, you know, and minister to him. Um for Mother Teresa, what this kind of meant was everybody that came to her was Christ in some sense, and she was a bride of Christ. So here is an opportunity for her to be of service and to practice her religion. She, you know, she welcomed the stranger just for exactly that reason. So so she goes down to the river every day, and um, and uh her her her clientele uh uh uh are uh are the people that are described in the Statue of Liberty, you know. Uh they're the poor, the tired, the weary, the nobody wants to sit next to this guy on the bus, you know, etc. etc. Right. And um reporters asked her one day, they said, Mother Teresa, how is it that you uh that you deal with these people every day? And it doesn't get to you. And she said, when I see these people, she said, I see our Lord in some of his more difficult disguises. Disressing, I'm sorry, some of his more distressing disguises. I think that's really kind of cool, by the way. Uh spiritually, it's an interesting notion to me to wonder how many interactions have I had with Christ today. Right. You know, and maybe I didn't recognize him because he was disguised. You know, I don't know. Um but the other thing, the the the the reason I mentioned Mother Teresa, I I do remember now, is that um she was asked to uh if she would attend uh this is uh during Vietnam, she was asked if she would attend this anti-war rally. And she said no. She says, but if you ever decide to have a peace rally, I'll be happy to be there. And I think that's that's the hard part of what do we need to do to kind of move ourselves from being the antis uh and running the inside of our head with how much stuff is happening out there that we hate.

SPEAKER_03 52:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Uh to actually be looking for the things that we really want to bring out in the world and make and make richer in the world.

SPEAKER_03 52:44

That makes a lot of sense to me. Because I feel like we have a lot going on right now in this climate. We have the war, and I see the the No Kings protest. And to me, it feels like what if we just had a peace gathering? Like we prayed to send love to that region, to send love to the president, you know, to see the president in as Christ in disguise, you know, and send love to Christ, you know.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

It must be Halloween in heaven.

SPEAKER_03 53:15

Right, right, right. Like, man, this is this is a really good disguise, right? You know, like you see Trump up there, you know, doing some things, and you're like, oh man, that doesn't seem like Christ.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:29

Man, you got me fooled.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Well, and and and you're actually a little more generous with what I offered than than I am, I I think. Uh I don't uh I I know the the goal, of course, would be would be to see Christ in everyone. Um Right.

SPEAKER_03 53:46

That's the goal. Like, yeah, that's hard. I don't know how to get there. I try.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

And you know that that is right. I I I think I put this online not too long ago, but the the idea is to to to love people that agree with you. You know, people I'm I'm such a loving person, you know. Uh right.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

As long as people love me, I love them.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

It really isn't very hard. The the master's course is to be able to love the people that you really don't agree with. You know, it doesn't mean you have to compromise, it doesn't mean you have to change your beliefs. Um it just has to do with the fact that you need to recognize that there are humans on this planet too. I think one of the one of the big issues with the the divides in our in our country today uh really is around uh around this notion of values. And and as much as I would like to believe that I am right about my values, I believe I believe in good things and nice people and uh loving communities and peace. Okay, so so on my list of values, those things are pretty high up towards the top. On somebody else's list of values, um monetary success or business success or being a celebrity or whatever it is, those things may be higher on their list of values. And as much as I would like to pretend that one of these positions is right and one is wrong, it it ain't. They're different. That's exactly what they are. And what we're all doing in life is going out trying our best to express and to see that our values are expressed in the world. Um and and uh and sure that that puts us as uh at odds with one another, but we're uh uh I had a client one day, uh I I I still remember this, this has got to be it's gotta be 40 years ago, I think. I was in San Francisco and uh and I was talking to this guy who'd had a really difficult childhood and issues with his family and his father and you know and stuff. And um, and he got me. I you know, every once in a while, he you know, he got me. And uh and I was talking to him, and I I just sort of hesitated, choked me up for a moment when I heard this story, right? And uh and he looked at me in the sweetest way, and he said, You know, Michael, he says, We're just all poor sons of bitches trying to get through it. And I'm like, oh my god, the Buddha is here in my therapy room, you know. Um so so I I know it's really hard with some people, and it and it's even harder with positions, by the way. When we think about this with regard to politics, that's a little bit different than we think about this with regard to a particular individual who votes differently than you do. You know, uh, where they aren't the figure. Because by the way, all of those politicians, those aren't real people, those are media campaigns. You know, we don't know any of them. You know, but real people who may have a whole different value system as you do, and to be able to say, that's interesting. Uh how does that work? What you know, what is it like to be you? Because I'm curious, right? Is a much better position than you know, well, you're wrong about that, and uh you know, um, because I am the authority, you know. Right. I mean, that's just as arrogant as as what uh what what everybody believes the other side is doing?

SPEAKER_03 57:27

I think that's a lovely path. I I and dude, I've learned so much today. I've I have like two big old cards of notes here.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

Right.

SPEAKER_03 57:37

Thank you, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 57:39

Well, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_03 57:40

And I wonder before before we let you go, sir, is there anything that you just want the whole world to know in this moment? Like what's what's at your heart store that you want to spill out?

SPEAKER_00 57:51

I'd like to teach the world to sing, Ryan. I'd I'd like for people to be able to celebrate their lives and their experiences. And what I know is that that being miserable is optional. Uh Rajneesh Bhagwan uh said, I and I I this is another one of those moments, the light bulb moments. Uh no matter what. The people have a lot of opinions about about him, of course, and Osho. But um but what he said one day that I remember lit up a fire on top of my head, just like just like Pentecost, by the way, uh lit up a fire on top of my head was he said, your suffering is bogus. And I thought, you know, that's the deal. I can stop doing this right now. And uh yeah. And I hope people can you know start learning, looking for the possibility and figuring out what other what other experiences are available to me besides the uncomfortable one that I'm having. And just try it on.

SPEAKER_03 58:59

Try it on.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

Try it on.

SPEAKER_03 59:01

I love it. This is such a delight. Thank you, Michael.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

You betcha.