“We’re Doing the Work”: A Father–Daughter Reunion Story

What happens when a father and daughter meet for the first time, in adulthood, and decide to build the relationship in public, in real time?

In this episode of Family Twist, Corey sits down with Joseph McGill Jr. and his daughter Charity Barriere Muhammad, who reunited just six months ago and are already preparing to share their story on stage together at Untangling Our Roots Summit 2026 in Atlanta, March 19–22, 2026. 

Joseph is the founder and Executive Director of The Slave Dwelling Project, an effort that brings attention to the overlooked structures where enslaved people lived by arranging overnight stays in extant slave dwellings, creating space for truth-telling, dialogue, and public education.  He is also the coauthor of Sleeping with the Ancestors: How I Followed the Footprints of Slavery, a deeply personal account of that work and what it reveals about American history, memory, and legacy. 

Charity is a cultural storyteller, educator, author, and the visionary behind Gumbo for the Soul, blending ancestry, creativity, and community.  In Corey’s conversation with Charity and Joseph, you’ll hear how reunion has expanded her sense of identity, including the way heritage and family history show up in food, traditions, and the stories we tell ourselves about where we come from.

Together, Joseph and Charity speak candidly about the early days of reunion, learning trust, holding space for hard truths, and what it means to build a relationship as two adults who both had full lives before they ever met. They also talk about what they hope others in the adoption, donor-conceived, and NPE communities take from their experience, especially those who are still searching, still processing, or still afraid to ask the next question.

Kendall will be attending Untangling Our Roots for the first time, and this episode is part preview, part love letter to the messy middle, where healing is real, but so is the work.

In this episode, we cover

• What six months of reunion can feel like, emotionally and practically
• Nature and nurture moments, when similarities show up in unexpected ways
• Trust-building after a lifetime without a parent-child relationship
• How Joseph’s work as a public historian shapes his view of legacy and family
• How food, recipes, and cultural inheritance become part of reunion
• Why therapy, patience, and “doing your part” matter in late discovery family connections
• What Joseph and Charity hope their on-stage conversation sparks for others at Untangling Our Roots

Guest spotlight

Joseph McGill Jr.
Founder and Executive Director, The Slave Dwelling Project.
Coauthor, Sleeping with the Ancestors: How I Followed the Footprints of Slavery. 

Charity Barriere Muhammad
Founder, Gumbo for the Soul, author, educator, cultural storyteller. 

Mentioned in this episode

• Untangling Our Roots Summit 2026 (Atlanta, March 19–22, 2026) 
• The Slave Dwelling Project 
• Sleeping with the Ancestors: How I Followed the Footprints of Slavery 
• Gumbo for the Soul 

Transcript

Six-month reunion, DNA discovery, Untangling Our Roots

Kendall 0:02

Hey listeners, it's Kendall. Before we get into this conversation, I just want to say up front, this episode hit me in a really specific way. In eight weeks, Corey and I will be in Atlanta for the Untangling Our Roots conference, and it will be my first time attending. Not my first reunion experience, but my first time being in a room where there are so many people standing in the middle of discovery, grief, relief, hope, uncertainty, all at once. And today's guests sit right inside that space. When Corey spoke with father and daughter, Joseph and Charity, they had been reunited for just six months. Six months. That's barely enough time to learn someone's coffee preference, let alone figure out how to be father and daughter after a lifetime apart. What struck me most as I listened wasn't just the joy or the gratitude or even the synchronicities, though, there were plenty of those. It was the intentionality, the honesty, the way both of them kept saying, we're doing the work. Joseph brings decades of public history into this relationship through his work with the Slave Dwelling Project, and through his book Sleeping with the Ancestors, which asks us to look directly at the places and stories this country has tried very hard to look away from. Charity brings creativity, education, and lineage into the room, through her writing, her teaching, her platform, the cookbook, Gumbo for the Soul, and through her commitment to telling the truth about where we come from and how that shapes who we become. They're not pretending reunion fixes everything. They're showing us what it looks like to stay present anyway. And that's why this conversation matters, not just because it's beautiful, but because it's honest about how fragile and powerful these connections can be.

Corey 2:22

Thank you for the invitation. Absolutely. Thank you. Now, before we get into the work, I'd love to start off with just the two of you together. When you think about sitting here now as father and daughter, what does that moment represent for you?

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Well, for me, it represents father and daughter. I mean, those big words in their own sense as a father and experiencing being a father. Now going through this again in for six months. So it's kind of like starting over, it's kind of like a second chance for me.

Corey 2:59

How about for you, Charity?

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Well, for me, this is my first time experiencing something like this. Like you said, it's been six months. So January 9th makes six months since we've found each other. So this is a totally brand new experience for me. I was raised on my grandparents on my mom's side. So I never really had the father-daughter experience. So it's overwhelming, it's exciting.

Corey 3:26

It's all the things. How would you describe your relationship today as opposed to let's say like five months ago?

Nature and nurture, shared traits, identity and ancestry

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Well, I would describe it as fulfilling, at least from where I sit. I'm not as resistant to something as I was prior to meeting my daughter, Sherry. It seems like we were walking the same path, doing some of the same things, but just in different venues. The similarities that we are recognizing, well, haven't recognized up to this point, are the things that want me to know more and spend more time with charity.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

I would describe it as he said fulfilling. I've noticed that over the last five months, we think a lot alike when it comes to a lot of subjects. Sometimes I can finish his sentences. Like he said, we were doing similar things. I'm an educator, then an educator over 10 plus years, then I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm an author. You know, he's an educator because he's a well-known, especially known historian. So he was educating, he's been educating people for over 15 years. He's also an author, you know, he's a co-author. So it's like we were walking similar paths, but five months later, um, yeah, I would definitely say it's fulfilling and it's kind of filling in those gaps and holes that I didn't know I had. I could definitely say now five months later, I never could relate to, you know, when people will say, you know, oh yeah, daughters need their fathers and all that. I never could relate to that five months ago. I can relate to that now. I can totally say, yeah, daughters do need their fathers and vice versa. So yeah, five months later, I will say feeling.

Public reunion story, Untangling Our Roots Summit, advocacy

Corey 5:37

You know, we talk about nature and nurture a lot on the podcast, and it just continually fascinates me when I hear the stories about similarities and either the paths you've taken, you know, professionally, or mannerisms, or tone of voice and sense of humor and stuff. It's just, I love it. And we don't say nature versus nurture because we feel like there is space for both. So, what was the decision process like? You're gonna be speaking together at the Untangling Our Roots Summit. What was the decision process like to share your story publicly?

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Well, I tend to want to be more spontaneous. Uh, that's my style of doing things. Just give it to me and I'll give it back. Sherry, I'm discovering is a little more tempered. She plans more, she takes off the edges, she's more patient than I am. We say the same things, but she says them in nicer ways. So we're trying to meld the two to come up with this message that we'll be sharing with the Yeah, the process for me, like I mean, I was excited, right?

Trust in reunion, therapy, healing family relationships

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Like I said, I'm used to being in front of an audience, being an educator. I've spoken at different events, and like I was, like I tell him a lot, is like he is a public speaker, right? He's been public speaking for over 15 years. I've been doing it over 10 plus years, but the opportunity to be on stage with him, you know, doing it together and then talking about our story. Yeah, that decision-making process, it was a no-brainer. You know, whenever we were asked, it was like, yeah, of course. He said he's not shy. He's very spontaneous. I have a spontaneous side too. It's just that working in the education system, I had no choice but to have a filter. But now I work for myself, right? Because I do homeschool and all that. So I don't have to worry about my filter as much as I did previously. That spontaneous strict is in there and it's coming out more and more now. Since I don't have to be filtered, but yeah, that decision-making process I'm excited about. I'm not nervous, and I feel like we don't, it's pretty much it's our story, you know. So we are learning more and more about each other every day. So I feel like it'll be I think it'll be a good experience, and it'll be enlightening um for everyone, and it'll also be, you know, helpful too, you know, to a lot of people to because every story, you know, doesn't turn out like our de Right. That that's that's my take on speaking together in March.

Corey 8:23

So how do you hold space for honesty and respect when the conversation gets kind of difficult?

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Well, I expect that it will. I would be disappointed otherwise, you know, that's life. So I think the spontaneity and not fearing the unknown kind of takes the edge off, worrying about it. You know, I say hey, just get out there and do it. Sometimes you have to repair a plane while it's flying, and even more extremely you have to build a parachute on the way down. But I guess my point is, you know, you have to launch because if you hold on too tight to a dream, sometimes you can choke it to death. But you gotta put yourself out there, trust the other person. I have to trust charity. Similar to my decision to be a co-author of a book, you have to realize your blind spots, your deficiencies, and allow that to be fulfilled by others who can assist. And charity is all that. I'm finding out.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Okay, and for my part about the trust, it was a little bit more difficult for me when it comes to trust. Uh, you know, because of my childhood and my background, my childhood was really crappy. I don't have like a good track record or a good example when it comes to trust. I'm being able to trust others. This whole six months period of us getting to know each other, he has made it easier to learn how to trust uh him and also learn how to trust others just by being himself, being consistent, and being honest. So, like you said, the fact that he's not afraid of the unknown. I'm not afraid of the unknown either. I had to take a chance, because I took a chance to look for him. So then it was like I had to basically say put up or shut up pretty much because I started the search. So then of course I got really, you know, nervous and anxious when they were like, oh, you know, we found him, you know. So I was anxious about that part, but it was like, it's like, why be afraid now? So it's like I have to, you know, do the work and put the work in. So if he's showing up and he's putting in effort and he wants to talk and he wants to get to know me and build a relationship, then I can't shut down now, you know. So if I've been shut down for what, 41 years, but I opened that, like I opened the door. So it's like, why close it? I'm the one that opened it. So he like hopped right in, like, here, hey, I'm here. I'm your dad, it's me. So uh that's what the process has been like for me. You know, just learning how to trust and learning how to listen and remaining open minded, and also um being open to, you know, second and third and fourth and fifth chances too, because he has done nothing to me, right? I have done nothing to him. So we just had to start with like a clean slate. Like, you're my dad, I'm your daughter. Like he said, it's like starting all over for him. I had to realize that I was looking at it more like what all I didn't have, what I didn't have growing up, what all I missed out on because I didn't have a dad. But he also missed out. So in our conversations with each other and also therapy, has helped me to realize that a relationship is two people, right? So he missed out on me too. So that that's helped me a whole lot with the building trust. He makes it easy to trust him, you know, and uh feel safe. So yeah. Good.

Corey 12:16

So Joe, I'm gonna ask you a little introspective now. As a historian and an educator, how has this new relationship with your daughter made you think about legacy and history?

unknown 12:29

Yeah.

Food and ancestry, Gumbo for the Soul, cultural identity

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Well, and what I do, legacy and history is very important. I proclaim myself to be a public historian, and a lot of being a public historian deals with not only family trees but DNA. Perfect example are Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemi. It was a lot of denial of that relationship until the DNA proved you can argue with this science. So if I'm honoring it historically, I certainly have to honor it in present day. And I know that my sincere uh honesty to my profession and what I do on a daily basis has to has to spill over. And I have to lead by example. You know, I know there are others out there with similar stories. These stories don't usually end up the way we are proceeding right now. In a lot of cases, there are denials. In some cases, there's death. In some cases, there's incarceration. In some cases, there is that desire just to keep on living lives separately. Sometimes that decision is mutual, sometimes not. But I think that we have here a great opportunity for others to take all the positives that we are portraying, are actually living, and hopefully build on that. That's excellent.

Corey 14:11

So, Charity, and this will be a question for both of you, but I know that cooking and recipes are such an important part of family and history. In fact, we're working on a family twist cookbook right now. So can you talk a little bit about your approach to your book? And do you think that it would have changed a little bit if you knew what you know today?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Oh, yes. Okay. Yes, it definitely would have changed. As a matter of fact, before I found him, I was thinking about publishing like a second edition of my cookbook. Um, my cookbook called Gumbo for the Soul. I have an adult version, and I also have a children's version, the children's version and the adult version. Like they both have affirmations, anecdotes, some songs. And it was more like a therapeutic thing for me when I wrote it. And I talk a lot about my childhood, but I wasn't really being like 100% honest when I wrote the first version, you know, because I was worried about how my grandparents would feel, which is normal because they raised me. So I was thinking about doing a second edition, but in the middle of thinking about doing a second edition, that's when I met him, right? So now it's like not only am I I have a Creole background, but now I also learned that I also have a Gulagie background. There's a whole lot more elements I can add to my second edition now. Not only can I add illustrations, I can also add in the Golagee slide. And it's also helped me to realize that it wasn't just, you know, the Creole influence or my Creole background that gave me the cooking ability or the knowledge I had when it comes to cooking. I was thinking all of that came from my grandmother. Um, it's just been really exciting to me because to me, cooking, like when you cook for people, it's a way to show them how much you love and care about them. So it's just been exciting to learn about this whole other aspect, like the whole other side of me, that now I've been tapping into it little by little, but it's like I can just fully immerse myself in it. I've learned a couple of new repes from him that I'm definitely gonna add to my cookbook. But with cooking being so close to my heart and the way I've been expressing myself, it definitely has had a big effect. Me meeting him and me being able to incorporate him into my cookbook and anything else that I published, because, you know, that's something that was missing, you know, for us like now. Uh and then I'm evolving too, you know, as a result of meeting him.

Corey 16:50

So, Joe, I I want you to talk about your book, but first, um, do you cook?

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Yes. Yes. In my house, I do cook if I do want to eat in my house. One of my favorite dishes is something she's tried already. This we call it perlo, but it's just a mixture of type of meat, usually chicken. You know, you you boil it and you season it to taste, and then you put in rice and you let the rice cook for as long as it takes the rice to cook, and that's your dish. So, and she's tried that. And she made her interpretation of she did it differently, but it worked. But she also came down here the last time we hung out together and participated in a sweet potato pie contest, meaning that there were other folks, local people in this contest baking sweet potato pies. And she won. So, yeah, she's got that cooking thing down. So now you got the reminder of the question.

Corey 17:48

Well, I was at first asked if you like to cook, but uh do you have a favorite recipe of hers?

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Yeah, I don't remember. Have I eaten your cooking cooking? I haven't. Oh, the the pie? I tasted the pie. So yeah, I guess you could say, yes, I certainly like the pie. The award-winning pie. Yes. Award-winning pie. And yes, and and yes, there is a book if you want to talk about the book.

Corey 18:12

If you want me to talk about this book. I would love you to talk about the passion for this project, please.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

Yeah, well, the passion came from, I guess, denial, denial of what I'm now disseminating, because that was kind of locked away from me. That was the education that was that I got was influenced by United Daughters of the Confederacy, you know, glorifying the South and lost cause tainted uh history that I consumed. And in Hollywood, kind of sprinkling that into what they produced, making the Native Americans the bad guy, and you know, making enslaved people happy to be enslaved and the enslavers benevolent. That's the history that I consumed. And that's the history that I had to uh deny. Because when I started to become a park ranger at Fort Sumter, where the Civil War started, I had to do the research to fulfill that position. And then doing that research is when a lot of the information that I had learned, well, that was taught to me was dispelled because I started getting more into the people of that period, the people of whom I share my DNA. And that was also a period where a black history was a good thing to learn, identify yourself with. We were roots 1977, The Pride, 1968, James Brown, I'm I'm black and I'm proud. I'm a product of all that. So taking all that in. And having an opportunity to do something to right or wrong to help those that want to be helped, the ones that want to hear the message of our proud past as black folks of that period of enslavement and having the ability to teach about their agency what they did despite all that was heaped upon them, as in looking at them not as people brought over here for their brute force or their physical strength, but look at them as the engineers who made former swamps, rice fields. They engineered. And looking at them as engineers, and the fact that they brought the knowledge to uh turn these swamps into the rice fields that made the enslavers rich. Or they had the knowledge of working the sugar cane and processing the sugar cane that made the enslavers rich. So and looking at looking at them in that sense and doing that research to become that park ranger and learning this information. I also, after my uh uh stint with the National Park Service, went over to Kent Center on St. Helena Island, that place where the recently enslaved people are now free, free by default, because the enslavers kind of high-tailed it out of there. And being a part of the first school to educate those recently enslaved people and telling that history there at what is now Penn Center and leaving there and going to Iowa to lead the process to build an African American museum. And then leaving there and coming and work for the National Trust for Historic Preservation and seeing through them that there was this desire to preserve buildings. But the focus just had to shift from those nice, beautiful big buildings, iconic, nice mansions that people pay so much to see and have a desire to see. Well, on the periphery of all that are these what they call outbuildings, our dependencies, the pretty words that they give to these places. But these buildings are slave dwellings or slave cabins. Getting them to focus more on that, being more inclusive of that element of the story into the narrative was the goal of the slave dwelling project. And you know, having the knowledge and bringing the knowledge to this and being in this thing for 10 years, sleeping in slave dwellings, came the idea for the book, Sleeping with the Ancestors, How I Followed the Footprints of Slavery. It's co-written by the co-writer Herb Frazier. Again, you have to trust someone with that idea, with your idea. And I trusted him. We still have this relationship going because we're working on our second book.

Corey 23:13

Love to hear that.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

So that's a story.

Corey 23:15

So, Charity Joe, this is a question for both of you. You know, not everybody in reunion has the same experience as you that they don't have that closeness, you know, six months later. But for someone who is craving that closeness or wants to deepen a relationship, what would you like them to hear?

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Well, I would like to them to see this great example that we're setting, the potential that we have. You know, I want them to be able to look at the two of us and say, hey, we could be them. It could be like that. And I want them to encourage others, but I think they themselves are going to have to do their part. You know, as an African-American male, I know that there are others out there like myself, probably in denial right now. And I'm I'm hoping that I'm that inspiration for them to do the right thing. Of course, I know charity can speak to this thing from her angle, but I think as a father with the responsibilities of being a father, I think we should take advantage of that opportunity because we're going to need this. Because if we look at ourselves as United States uh citizens and the fact that there is going to come a time, probably not in my lifetime, but quite possibly charity's lifetime, where the majority of this nation is going to be a conglomeration of others. And uh we as African Americans are going to be in that conglomeration of others. Our charities generation and younger are going to be just that. And I think we, well, I know that we're going to have to lead by example. No, the family unit is still important. So any time that we can keep those family units together is a great opportunity for all. And I think the whole society benefits from that. So I think this example that we're setting is doing our part.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

What I would say is that I would want them to know don't be afraid. It may be scary to even ask the question because you don't know everybody's situation, you don't know everybody's story. Every story is unique, everybody's background is different. We came to this place we are today for different reasons, different circumstances. This happened as a result of my mom passed away. That's why we didn't know who my dad was, because my mom passed away and she didn't tell anybody. So I know our story is unique, but I also know there are other people out there like me. That may be the reason, you know, why they might not know who their dad or their mom is. I was adopted by family, right? But everybody's situation is different. So I would say don't be afraid to ask the question, don't be afraid to look. And then after you ask the question, and then after you look, don't be afraid to walk through the door, and don't be afraid to be welcoming and open-minded to the answer that you may or may not sign. Because, like he said, to have been incarcerated. You know, he could have been no longer with us. You know, there could have been, or he could have been in denial. He could have been not as welcoming, you know, not as open. So since we've been fortunate, I will hope that people will look at us and say, you know what, I'm willing to take that chance because I have a chance at a piece of something that I didn't have before, even if it's just closure. Like we're having a chance to build a totally brand new relationship and enjoying it while we're doing it. But and like you said, everybody's story is not gonna be like ours, but it just might be. So, you know, don't be afraid to take the chance, be open-minded, be forgiving. And my brother did tell me, because I was I used to just give people three chances, and then I would write them off. My brother told me, do not be like that with your dad. He said, You don't know what happened, you don't know what the circumstances were, you can't go off what you were told, what the people who rangedly told you can't go off of that. You may lose the family that raised you, you know, in pursuit of your parent that you're looking for, but you have to not let that stop you. You know, you have to give that person a chance, be open-minded, and open yourself up to all the possibilities and pray for the best, wish for the best, hope for the best. And like you said, you do have to do the work though. That's the other part. You have to do the work and you have to be consistent. You can't have all these expectations of the other person, but not have any expectations for yourself. Because one thing I'm learning too is that you know, when you find your parent like later in life, everybody, we both had lives, right? Before we found each other, we both had lives. So we wanna spend time, we wanna talk, and we wanna do all the things, but you still have to be mindful, you know, and considerate of the other person, you know, in their lives too. And I would recommend therapy.

Corey 28:42

Thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

I would definitely recommend therapy to help you process everything that comes with that.

Corey 28:49

So music has been a really important part of Kendall's and my relationship since the very beginning. And when we found his birth father, bonding with him over music was important. So we added this as our final question that we asked all guests a year or so ago. In the early days of the discovery, or as you were continuing to go through it, is there a musical artist or a song that you lean on?

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yes. Yes, I'm the music, I wouldn't say aficionado, but I have like a playlist for everything. I created a playlist after I met him. The playlist is called Go. And sometimes it's called Sae. My favorite song, I have several actually, but I would say two of them. So the first one would be Safe by Cardi B, the edited version, not the virgin with all the Fenty. And then there's another one called Safe Place, something like, you know, you are my safe place. I can't remember her name, but it's called Safe Place, and I listen to it on repeat all the time. And I actually emailed it to him because I'm that person too. I'm a Libra, and I'm that person that I say more with the song than I can with words verbally. Like I will send you a song and I'll say, Listen to this, you know, listen to the lyrics, and it'll tell you exactly how I'm feeling. And I also made a couple of videos, right, and I just tagged him in them, you know, so that way he knows like this is how I feel right now. I feel like this is the first time in my life that I was safe. I felt safe, you know, like safe enough to be myself. Yeah, those are my two. Safe by Cardi B and Safe Place. You can find that on Spotify or YouTube if I'm gonna let you.

Corey 30:30

I'll find it. Joe, how about you? Is there a musical artist or a song that has helped you get through some challenging times?

SPEAKER_03 30:37

I can't say that there is, but I can say that I know that she likes India I re. Yes. I got to tell her the story about me going to a concert of India I re that brought her joy, uh knowing that. And then and then I I had to tell her part that very near the end of the concert, she puts on these butterfly wings because she loves butterflies. Yes. Well, there's that story. But there's also this potential. When we were in Montgomery, and I got this phone call, and this person was trying to sell us songs, they said, We saw your book, we love your book, we can write a song about it. I said, No, that's okay. Charity says she's got the ability to do that because she knows the technology of how to do that. But I think the other assignment is to create our song. So that's the challenge. Yeah. I like that. Because, you know, in addition to that, just as this folks are trying to sell a song for the book I wrote, well, there is also be another book that she and I will be writing together. And, you know, we can have a song with the book. So there.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

We're co-authoring together.

Corey 31:49

I love that. Now I've got the song Brownskin playing in my head, and I wonderful. Well, this has been amazing. And uh we really appreciate you sharing your story with us and so looking forward to meeting you both in person in March in Atlanta.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Most definitely.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

Yeah, excellent. I'm really looking forward to that. I'm very interested because I'll be on the stage in front of an audience with charity. I mean, that has its value. But I'm also on a stage again with let's see, this gentleman is a sperm donor, and one is an adoptee, and then there's me. So I think that's a very interesting mix, and I'm looking forward to it.

Kendall 32:30

There's something that happens when you listen to a conversation like this, especially if you're part of this community. You start doing the math in your head. Six months, a lifetime, what was missed, what's possible now? What I keep coming back to is how both Charity and Joseph talk about responsibility, not obligation, responsibility. Responsibility to tell the truth, responsibility to show up, responsibility to not project old wounds into a new relationship. That's not easy work, especially when history, personal and collective, is part of the room. Joseph's work has always been about making the invisible visible, about sleeping in spaces people would rather forget existed, about honoring ancestors by refusing to sanitize the past. Charity's work does something just as powerful. She takes ancestry, creativity, food, faith, and lived experience, and turns them into something nourishing. Something that says, you can survive this and you can still build something meaningful. Together they're showing us that reunion isn't about perfection, it's about presence. And for those of you listening who are still searching, still deciding whether to ask the question, still sitting with a door half open, I hope you heard what I heard. There's no guarantee, there never is, but there is value in truth, there's value in effort, and there's value in doing this work with care. If you're coming to the Entangling Our Roots conference, we'll see you there. If you're not, we hope this episode reminds you that your story matters, even if it's unfinished. Joseph, Charity, thank you for trusting us with this moment. And to all of you listening, we'll be back soon. Remember, family secrets are the ultimate plot twist.