S1 E8: The Dignity Lens: Christ-Centered Leadership in a Divided World | Tami Pyfer

In this meaningful episode of Born to Lead, Connie Sokol and Madison Lattin sit down with Tami Pyfer, Chief External Affairs Officer for Unite and co-creator of the The Dignity Index, to explore how leadership begins with the way we speak and see one another.

Tami shares how the Dignity Index’s simple eight-point scale—measuring language from contempt to dignity—has become a powerful tool for transforming conversations in politics, workplaces, and families alike.

In this episode, she discusses:

• How to recognize contempt in ourselves and shift toward dignity
• Practical ways to regulate emotion before responding
• Why listening to understand changes the tone of any conversation
• How to stand firm in your beliefs without devaluing others

Grounded in Christ’s example of honoring individual worth, Tami reminds us that true leadership isn’t about winning arguments—it’s about elevating people.

 If you’re navigating hard conversations or seeking to lead with conviction and compassion, this episode will inspire you to choose dignity every time.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Tammy Piper is the Chief External Affairs Officer for Unite and co-creator of the Dignity Index. Tammy leads the Dignity Index government and corporate partnerships. Before joining Unite, Tammy served as education policy advisor to former Utah Governor Gary Herbert, where she was involved in state-level policy development, coalition, building, and stakeholder engagement. She held local and state elected offices for 12 years, including four years on the Utah State Board of Education. Tammy's professional training is in special education, and before her appointment to serve on the governor's executive team, she taught at Utah State University in the Special Education Teacher Preparation Program. Tammy was a 2024 Emerson Collective fellow part of the Community Champions Cohort and one of USA Today's 2025 Woman of the Year representing Utah. Tammy and her husband Aaron are the parents of five children, grandparents of 16. They live in Salt Lake City, Utah. Welcome back to Born to Lead.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

We're your hosts, Connie Sokel and Madison Latin. And we are so excited today to have a beautiful guest who has done so much work on leadership. Tammy Piper, thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited. We are so stoked about this because she has a unique kind of emphasis and niche on leadership, and it's all to do with dignity. So we're just gonna jump right into the first question, Tammy.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

So you are the co-creator of the Dignity Index. Do you mind briefly explaining to our listeners specifically what you do and what leading with dignity looks like?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

So thank you for having me, first of all, and I'm really excited to be talking about the Dignity Index. The Dignity Index is a scale, it goes from one to eight that measures the language that we use when we're in conflict or disagreement with others. The bottom of the scale is contempt, the top of the scale is dignity. And it just measures phrases and really the mindset behind the phrases that we use. For example, on the dignity side of the scale, there would be phrases like, you know, tell me more. I believe that everyone has a right to be here and a right to belong. I'm gonna look for common ground with you. On the contempt side of the scale, uh, it's more like those people don't belong, they're ruining everything, they're ruining the country. We have to get them before they get us, those types of phrases. And it's the language, again, that reflects contempt or dignity. And we designed this scale to be used to score speech. Um, we originally had thought that we would score the speech of politicians, so that when you are going to the voting booth, uh you would say, I'm gonna look at the way that this that this candidate speaks about people and speaks to their opponents, because if they speak with a lot of dignity, I know that they're going to be good problem solvers if they get elected. If they're speaking with a lot of contempt and stirring up hatred and polarization, I'm not sure that they're going to be able to lead my community or lead the country well. And so that was our original intent with the Dignity Index. We quickly learned that people wanted to use it for everything else except scoring political speech. You know, we would train a young group of students, uh, undergraduate and graduate students at the University of Utah who helped us uh validate this tool, pilot test it. And after a couple of days of training, they would come back into our workshop and say, I had to take down a post that I made on social media. I realized that I was speaking with contempt. I had to apologize to someone. I realized that the way I'm talking to my mom is not very helpful. And so it opened up this whole world of applications for the dignity index that we had not imagined. People are using this in their families, in their communities, in their businesses to create a dignity culture and to be able to solve problems together.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

I love that. A dignity culture. I love that. And what are some of those keys to taking someone from somewhere on that scale that isn't ideal? What have you seen as one of the keys to start getting them transitioning to that?

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Well, we have found that the dignity index itself is just a really helpful um shorthand for people when they get into disagreement. And I, you know, I use it all the time because I like to see how I'm doing. People weigh themselves every day. They track the miles that they run or whatever it is, people want to do better. And this index is a way to reflect that. So if you're having a conflict with someone and you just can't seem to get it right, you can look at the index. It's just a short brief scale that says, think of it this way. Instead of thinking, you know, I'm better than you, this is a real classic one. A four is the first step into contempt. And you say, we're better than those people. They don't really belong. And when you can look at that and say, that's not what I'm, that's not what I want to do. I don't want to be that. I want to go the first step into dignity, which is a five, which says, everyone belongs. They are like, I'm not above anyone else. We're all together in this. You know, when you can start to see that differently and then say, look, I'm gonna approach this problem. This person's making me crazy. I'm getting into an argument with this person all the time, but I'm gonna stop thinking that they're ruining everything, which is like a two or a three. I'm gonna stop thinking that I'm better than them, which is a four, and just step back and listen and say, look, everyone has dignity. They belong here too. I'm gonna listen to what they have to say. Then all of a sudden, you're actually more listening than you are judging and labeling. And that's when you can start to solve the problems that you have. A six is when you are gonna start looking for common ground. And so that might be the next thing people do. It's like, I have an argument every Thanksgiving with these people. They're making me crazy. I'm on the left, they're on the right, or whatever the cultural differences that you might have. A six is when you start to look for common ground. So it's like, here's my here's my goal at Thanksgiving. I'm gonna find something we have in common. It might have nothing to do with politics, but I'm gonna find something we agree on, and that's what we're gonna talk about. And we're gonna talk about how we agree on this particular issue and then look for those things we have in common. That's a six. So that's how the index can help you. It has these little short phrases, and on the back of the card, which I am going to have to pull out here, honestly. We have ideas for people on how they can build some of these conversations. We have the index. Can you show that to us for those who are watching? Great. This, yeah. So this is the Digney Index. It's super easy. This is it in one page. And then on the back, we have these ideas for people on how to build better conversations. For example, we have regulate, then debate, which is when you're getting into an argument or you feel it coming on, just pause, stop, breathe, take a moment. And so we have people like regulate, then debate. One of them is listen to understand, not to respond. I'm terrible at this. I listen. So while I'm while I'm while I'm supposedly listening to you, I'm getting my next argument ready. So this is just saying, look, listen to understand. Don't even plan on responding. Just listen so that you can understand. We ask people to challenge ideas and not attack people. Like, let's put those ideas out and everybody go at it, but let's not attack the people behind the ideas. Um, acknowledge knowledge. I love this one. A lot of times when we have ongoing conflict with someone, I've seen this in elected uh positions before that I've held, is like if someone that you're always on the other side of the issue with that person, that even when they do come up with a good idea, you don't want to give in because you're always on the other side. I can't agree with that person. So this one key that we have on the back of the cards is acknowledge knowledge. When someone makes a logical or interesting point, acknowledge it, which will come out of the blue and that person will probably pass out because it's like, wait, Tammy never agrees with me. But look at what it does to have someone that you're at odds with, maybe all the time, and you've agreed with them. You can almost kind of see them soften and say, oh, they're gonna acknowledge that I know something on this. Anyway, so there's some of the keys that we have on the back. And then on the front, we have the different levels from the bottom of the scale, which is political violence. This is when we believe that people are not even human, and we start to use dehumanizing language, which is why we ask people to learn about the index so that when they hear dehumanizing language, they go, Oh, wait a second, that's a one. That leads to violence. You know, a tree where the good people near the bad people. Uh, it's us versus them, or get up to the six where we have common ground. I love a seven. The seven is like almost at the top of the scale. And a seven is when instead of finding the common ground that we agree on, I'm gonna start talking about the things we don't agree on because those conversations have been hard for us. And I'm gonna breathe, I'm gonna regulate, and then I'm gonna ask you about those things we don't agree on because I want to find out more about you and why you believe so differently than I do. And when you start to get to that seven, often you start to realize that maybe you have a different view now that you learned more about the other person's position. The seven people can admit that they're wrong or that they changed their mind. Or, as I like to say, at a six, you're gonna find common ground. At a seven, in problem solving, you're gonna find higher ground because you're gonna come up with a solution that neither one of you have thought of before because you're both stuck in your side. And we're only talking about the things we agree on. When you start talking about the things you don't agree on and find out more about what each person is bringing to that argument, you might find that you start to generate ideas that neither one of you have thought of before. And that's what I call finding the higher ground.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

This is so powerful. And a piggyback question on this. I remember hearing that Stephen Covey had two people on stage once, and it was an exceedingly hot button topic, extremely divisive. And he said, I want you to go into this conversation, do what I've just taught you, and and we're gonna stay as long as it takes for you to find that common ground and be able to say, I can see the other person's side of it. 45 minutes on stage. But they did. They came to common ground and higher ground that you're talking about, where the one said, I actually never thought that I could see why you would have that value and I can see and appreciate that, which is powerful. And then yeah, we have actual unity. Where, first of all, can people get these cards? Are they available? Is there a website? Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Go to our website, it's dignity.us or dignity.us, and uh there's a resource page. The cards are on the resource page, and we also have an expanded version of the card, and this is our scoring guide. This we teach people to score speech. You can't watch a TV show now. You can't go to a movie, you can't be driving down my 15 without scoring your own speech, your own language, and like scoring things that you hear. We teach people to score speech so that you start to recognize those phrases and you start to recognize it in yourself. So we designed this to score others. It's really the power of the index is to score ourselves and to see that it becomes a mirror for our own language. And as we can change the way that we perceive others and the way that we listen to people, that changes those interactions. And people say, well, the other side's never gonna change. You didn't you never know that. And first of all, you have to change yourself. I was taught when I was young that when you point a finger at someone, that three fingers are pointing back at you. And so when you're trying to change that guy, then you've got to look at the three fingers pointing back at you and start, you know, changing yourself first.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Absolutely. And I think we both would love to know if there's an experience that you have where you've had to employ these in like a charged conversation or situation that you've been able to pull it back or find common ground or higher ground.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

So I've had lots of experiences. The ones that that come to mind most quickly are these times when I've had to just stop trying to prove my point, you know, and I do take a deep breath and then just listen and not agree, not disagree. What's really hard for me, and it's hard for a lot of people, is they think if they listen without jumping in with their point, that you're that you are now really agreeing with the other person. And that's not true. And so that's that's that's the skill I'm working on right now is learning that I can just be still. I can just listen, or I can say, you think we disagree on this, but I want to learn more. Can we talk about it again? Let's have this conversation again. And it has softened a lot of conversations I've had with family members in these, in these settings where we really disagree. But it's like, I'm just gonna listen to what you have to say, or I'm just glad that you're here. On the website, we do have a resource to a smaller card that has phrases that you can say when you get into some of these situations where a temperature is starting to rise, you're starting to get a little angry. And some of those phrases are things like, Well, I've never thought about that way. Can you tell me more? Or how do you think we fix this? I I've used this one, I have used this one when we get into a disagreement and like we are never gonna see the same. So instead of that, you just take a pause and say, you know what? I know we've talked about this before. How do you think we fix this? And then you invite a completely different conversation. The tagline of the Digney Index is on our cards. We want to ease division, prevent violence, and solve problems. And we see this as a problem-solving tool. I just got back from India where we've trained about a thousand business men and women who want this to be part of their culture. They want to solve problems, so they want to be able to communicate better. And so they see it as a communication tool and a problem-solving tool.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Tammy, I love the Dignity Index and what it teaches everybody, how we can treat others with more dignity. And that's what true leaders do. Can you think of an experience where Christ led with dignity? Because our podcast, we love to bring in Christ-centered skills and leadership that we can all apply in our lives. So, once again, can you share an experience that Christ led with dignity?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yeah, I love reading in the New Testament about time after time again when Christ served the least among us, people who were untouchable, the woman who had an issue of blood for 12 years, who was untouchable, who was banned from society, who was told to stay away, right? And the healing uh that happened because of her faith. If I could just touch the garment of the savior, and if those in the crowd had known who she was, she was unclean. And yet, she made her way to the savior. She touched the hem of his garment, she was healed, and the savior pointing that out, who touched me and elevating her as an example of someone with deep faith. I think the dignity that he showed to her, I mean, the dignity inherent in the miracles that he performed, but raising her up as someone who was the least among them to now, as the model of faith for others in that crowd, there's a huge amount of dignity, as all of his works showed us, the dignity that can be shown to those who we think were better than those people or who were left behind in society then.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Oh my gosh, my mind is just exploding with examples like the centurion and the widow of Maine, and then the widow's might, these people who were sort of marginalized or under the radar in society. And he literally not only points them out, but like you said, elevates them and because of that elevates everybody else's view around them. That is so beautiful. What difference have you seen since you've started this study of dignity and you've seen people apply it? Is there an experience that comes to mind where you see someone that they've actually used it in a high charge moment and you've seen them change and it's lasted. It's not just been in that moment, but they've actually made a change and it's it's affected them, it's influenced them.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

I see this happening all of the time with people we work with. I did a workshop today. I'll give you this example with a woman who learned about the index in her work, and it's been about a year and a half since she learned about the index. And through her employment and the leadership position she has, she's been able to bring the index to numerous groups of people. And today was the second opportunity I've had to per to um to present to one of those groups. But from the time I first presented to uh this woman and she learned about it, we've been friends for a long time. And we were in the political world together when I was in the governor's office and on Capitol Hill and we debated things. And, you know, we both struggled a lot with the contention and you know, bills that came up, and then COVID came along, and we were trying to deal with these issues. And from the time that she's learned about the index about a year and a half or so ago, I regularly get text messages from her going, I had to use a dignity index today. I just saw this. She said, I want you to know what's happening. And then I got a text message from her a couple of months ago after the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And she texted, she said, I just need you to know I am using the index every day. I think about this every day. I'm so upset by what's happening. And yet, this is what's getting me through this difficult time. Today, when I met with her, she told me a very poignant story, a family story. She said, You have to know I use this all the time. It's changed relationships that I have with my family. And it's changed relationships that I have, it's changed conversations I've had with my family. So, so there's one example that I, you know, long term, I see it working, I see it happening. I've had the same experience with an educator in the state that I've worked with who has tracked us for two and a half years, almost three years, and he routinely sends me examples of how this is helping his district and how this is helping teachers in the district problem solve amongst themselves and teaching students how to treat everyone with dignity. This is an anti-bullying program, honestly, when you teach kids to see other kids differently. So I hear these stories all of the time.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

This is so powerful, especially for young adults entering into this landscape so much more fully, that is charged, that is contentious, being armed with this tool, not just saying, hey, we need to be like, but here's a tool to help you become like this. I think this is incredibly powerful.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

And on another note, for our young leaders who struggle to stay true to who they are, how can they engage with opposing views without losing their faith or their identity or what they believe to be true?

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Madison, that's a really good question because often uh I'll get criticized on the index and people will say, you just want everybody to be nice to each other. You want people to give up their principles and their values so that they can get along. You want people to give in. And it's like, this couldn't be further from the truth. We want you to hold on to your principles. We want you to hold on to your values, we want you to be passionate about what you believe. We believe if you bring all of that to the table in conflict, but do it in a different way that you actually strengthen your own principles. I've been able to stand up for my values because I've had this very difficult conversation that I wanted to hear about yours. Tell me what you believe. Tell me why we think so differently on this political issue. Tell me what experiences you've had in your life that have led you to that opinion. And then you share yours. And in the sharing of yours and connecting to other people, often it's that connection, you've just strengthened your own dignity, you've strengthened your own values, or you've maybe thought, I do believe this, but there's another way to look at it. I'd never thought about looking at it this way. A lot of times young people are criticized because they go away to college and now they become radicalized and they come back a different person. Well, guess what? When you go into the world, you're gonna see different people and have different ideas, and you may change your mind. You can have the same values and principles your entire life and still change your mind on the application of those values and what those principles look like in different settings. You can do that and still hold tight to your values. And so I believe that when you start looking through the dignity lens at situations, at people at conflict, that it can actually help strengthen your values by connecting and seeing what we say is the inherent worth in every individual. The top of the scale, number eight on the scale, is that we believe that everyone is born with inherent worth. And in the language of my religion, we believe that everyone is born with divine worth. So we treat everyone with dignity no matter what. And when we start to see that inherent worth in others, I think it strengthens and pulls on our own individual divine worth and our principles and what we want to bring to the world.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Well, now that you say that, I keep thinking about Christ and what he did. And he was exactly like that. He held on to his truths and values, he taught them. But think about that, the woman in adultery. Obviously, that's not something he he wants people to do, but he loved her. He gave her that dignity. He let her have that and showed that to everyone that just because she did something that may not be right doesn't mean we can't love her and treat her with respect and dignity. So I love that.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Exactly. Even at the top of the scale, it's an eight. Everyone's born with inherent worth. We treat them with dignity no matter what. You may have committed horrible crimes. You may be in prison right now. You are being held accountable for your actions, but I can hold you accountable and do it with dignity.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Yes. In fact, I'm thinking about when Christ came, he said, I'm fulfilling the law of Moses and what you're talking about, the higher ground. And now I'm adding to it with this higher way of learning. Imagine they had to change their way of thinking and they were still holding on to their values. And that's what he was essentially teaching is I'm not doing something radically different. I'm actually building on and adding on to it. This is mind-blowingly beautiful. I know people are going to want to get to know you and more about what you're doing. Love it. The best way for people to contact you.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

So if you go to our website, dignity.us, there's a box on there that it says contact us. I screen all those emails that come in. So I'm happy to respond to anyone, or you can email me directly. My email is Tammy T A M I at Unite.us. But go to our website, sign up. We put out a beautiful newsletter today. We put out a newsletter every week talking about the movement. It's a dignity movement. And it's ways to get involved. It's ways to bring this to your community, to your family. If you're a workspace, we'll come and do a workshop for you. It really changes the way you look at things. And I do want to say one last thing. I am not perfect. The more you learn about this, the more you have to work on it. Because the language that didn't used to bother you, the mindset that never I never thought twice about. Oh, I know exactly what I'm thinking now, and I know exactly where I am on the scale. And it really bothers me. So it's a lot of work. We it it's a str it's an ongoing struggle, but it has changed the way I see things, the way I see people. It's changed relationships in my family. And it's an ongoing mission for me to continue to see uh through the dignity lens.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

That is so beautiful. Tammy, we want to finish with one last question that we ask all of our guests. And the question is: what does being born to lead mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 24:11

I think being born to lead means bringing who we are, the essence of who we are, to whatever space we find ourselves in. It means not trying to be like someone else, not to try and copy someone else's leadership, or I'm gonna have to wait till I get that skill or this skill. You bring who you are, and then whatever space you are in, if you're the PTA president, which is for the first elected position I had years ago, then you make the best PTA president there is. If you are a mom or a wife, if you volunteer in the community, if you have a job. Born to Leeds means you bring you to that space and you let that inner goodness, the inner dignity within you out in and let it fill the space around you.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

I love that. Well, thank you so much for being with us today, Tammy. And until next time, knowing that you are born to lead, how will you live as leaders for him?