S1 E9: Higher Allegiance: Leading with Identity, Faith, and Self-Government | Nicholeen Peck

In this powerful episode of Born to Lead, Connie Sokol and Madison Lattin sit down with Nicholeen Peck, current Utah state legislator and President of Worldwide Organization for Women, to explore how to lead with calm conviction in a world that feels increasingly divided.

Drawing from her experience in state government, public policy, and international conversations — including work connected to the United Nations — Nicholeen shares the transformative concept of “disagreeing appropriately”: the ability to stand firm in your beliefs while honoring the dignity of others.

In this episode, she discusses:

• What “front brain leadership” looks like in high-pressure moments
• How to regulate emotion instead of reacting impulsively
• Why identity and allegiance shape how we show up in conflict
• Practical tools for navigating hard conversations at home, in politics, and in public spaces
• How Christ models strength without hostility

Nicholeen reminds us that true leadership isn’t about overpowering others — it’s about governing yourself. When your identity is rooted in faith and higher allegiance, you can speak truth with clarity, confidence, and calm.

If you want to lead boldly without losing your peace, this conversation will equip you to stand firm and stay grounded — no matter the arena.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Nicoline Peck is a mother, grandmother, and worldwide family advocate known for her calm, principle-based parenting approach, a former foster parent and author of 11 books, including Parenting, A House United. She has taught families across six continents and was featured in a BBC documentary that showed her success transforming troubled teens. Nick Lane is also a podcaster, YouTuber, state legislator, and president of the worldwide organization for women.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Born to Lead. We are so excited that you are with us, taking your time to listen to what we have to share today about empowering you to be a leader on the everyday. I'm Connie Sokel, your host, and this is Madison Latin. And we are so thrilled today to have our guest, Nicoline Peck. Nicoline, thank you so much for taking time with us today. Yeah, I'm excited to be with you. What a power group. We're thrilled. We're gonna be sharing leadership real-time lessons and life experiences. So strap in.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

And on a personal note, I actually was the intern for Nicolein this last year at the Utah State Capitol. And I have learned so much from her. She's an incredible leader. And she actually took me to the United Nations with her. And I was able to see how she was able to communicate diplomatically. She's able to deal with all these high-profile people, be in high pressure situations, and she's able to keep her calm. And I think this is, these are incredible skills to learn. And that we actually want to hit on some of those skills today. So, Nicoleen, with you being a state legislator and going to the United Nations, how do you communicate diplomatically when you're in a difficult situation?

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Honestly, it does take practice. And I do believe in deliberate, good civil discourse. I think that holds the communities together. I think it helps us to preserve our freedom, but I think it helps us also to be understood when we have differing of opinion. So there's always going to be people who have different opinions. And I think one thing that people who start advocacy work make the mistake of is thinking that they're going to go in and they're going to state an opinion and everybody's going to agree because they're going to be like, it's true, right? It's true. So surely everyone will agree. Well, some people have different experiences. Some people look through a completely different lens. Like some people might look through a religious or God lens. Other people might look through a family lens. Other people might look through a certain lens of maybe a certain academic, like, oh, a psychology lens or an education lens or whatever. There's going to be all these different lenses that people look through. And there's different influencers and people who are steering conversations in all of these lenses, in all of these camps. And so even though you think you've found a truth in one place that you think should be universal, you have to find the truth in the other person's lens. Otherwise, they're not going to be able to understand it. And so one thing that I do is I try to see where we have common ground because we do have some common ground with just about everybody because we're human. One time I was at the United Nations, this was early on. I remember we were handing out these yellow bags that said something about family on them, which a lot of people don't know this, but of the United Nations, there are some people who are very antagonist about the word family. They think that it's a dirty word, a bad word, that somehow it excludes some people. When it's funny to me because I'm like, we're all part of families, right? And so you think you could unify on that, but actually, no, they don't want to unify on that. And so here I am standing in this security checkline. I'm holding all these yellow bags because I'm planning on handing them out to people to get them excited to come to this side event that we were doing related to family. And there was this woman who was behind me in line. And I thought, oh, I haven't talked to her, and I'm just standing here. So I turned around and I said, Oh, hey, do you want one of these bags? There's an event about the family. And so I went to hand it to her, and she looked at me and she had this scowl that came over her face. And she's like, I'm the opposition. It was like, How dare you talk to me? Like we're supposed to be enemies, right? And so I just looked at her and I said, You know what? I don't think anybody's the opposition when we're talking about family. And I said, And even if we think things that are different from each other, surely we all care about our families. And if you don't want one of these, that's totally fine. But I'll tell you what, I bet you what you have to say about families is pretty important to hear. Wow. And so, and she just kind of like stood there. She still was like my opposition, but she what do you do with that?

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Right. I love that you took the sting out of that and the backup and the ready to roar, right? It makes me think about Martin Luther King Jr. when he was on a march, he was coming around, and then a woman, all the crowds were on the side, and she stepped out and she spat on him. And then he went around and went around the block and came back around again. And at the time when she spat on him, he said, You're too lovely a person to engage in that. And then walked around the block. And when he came back around, she stepped down and she apologized to him. And I think that's the beauty of taking the bite out of what's happening, and like you said, engaging in that civil discourse and letting them know I'm not gonna engage that way. I'm I'm really am not an opposition.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Mm-hmm. Well, and it's funny because people put each other in boxes. I mean, especially at the UN, but uh legislatures all over, they do the same thing. Oh, you're part of the whatever, the union group. Oh, you're part of the conservative group, you're part of the LGBT group, whatever it is, and they list different camps or groups that people are part of. And so they assume that that means that that person is going to have nothing to say of value. That story with Martin Luther King absolutely expresses that he didn't feel that way, right? That every person, even if they disagreed with him, had value. And he was willing to show that in his actions, right? We have to do that too within our families. I teach this kind of stuff in families with parenting and stuff like that all the time. But but when we're trying to get our point across or have other people listen to us, we have to do the same thing. So there was a time this last legislative session, I ran some bills that were kind of controversial and got and engaged in some conversation about those bills, and people will come up, would come up to the Capitol to meet with me about those bills. So there was this one time where I was asked to go out to meet with somebody. I went out there and there was a whole group of youth. And there were a couple of adults that were in with these youth, who I think some of them were high school, some of them were college age, and they were there to tell me how wrong I was. And I could tell that these couple of older adults were kind of steering the group and were really like skeptical of what I was gonna say. There was this edge to them, right? So I just came out there and I said, Okay, well, what can I talk to you about? And they said, Well, we're here to talk to you about this bill, which we think it's something that's meant to silence a certain group of people that isn't kind or caring, that you're not understanding what we need. And they started sharing experiences that they had experienced as being part of a certain group of people who felt like they wanted to be heard on this issue. And so I listened and I said, Well, you know, that's really hard that you've had to deal with that. And I said, I actually used to be a treatment foster care parent, and I had some youth that were in my home that I love, love, love. And I will always consider them some of my dearest people. And they also dealt with things like that. And I was constantly trying to help them find success, right? And so suddenly I could align with them in an area where we have some common ground. And so then I listened to them a little bit more and I shared a few things about where I was coming from and how I wasn't trying to hurt anybody, but that we needed to make sure that government funds weren't spent on things that weren't of a government priority because it's not right to do to a taxpayer. And so I was explaining this isn't anything personal. We we're just disconnecting taxpayer dollars from things that are just personal agendas for people. And that's it. At the end of the conversation, um, I said, Well, is there anything else? This one boy said, Yeah, this was way different than I thought it would be. He said, This was like a good experience talking to you about this. And he said, I know that we don't actually see the same way on the issue, but I thought I was gonna have to fight you.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

What a gift. Being at the United Nations, but also the Capitol, and you would have experiences like this all the time, even with other legislators or senators. And I was in awe of how you were able to stay calm and you were able to find that common ground that you were able to be respectful. And I kind of just like thought to myself, like, whoa, would I have done that? It probably took a lot of practice because I don't think everyone is born that way to just, you know, be respectful necessarily. They always want to stand up for what they believe in. So, to our everyday listeners, how would you teach them to be respectful, to kind of control themselves, to find that common ground, but also stand up for what you know to be true?

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah, okay. So, Maddie, I don't know if you remember, I don't know how you could forget because you spent I don't know how many hours and days trying to coordinate this for me. But I set up meetings with all the senators, remember? Because I'm in the House of Representatives. And so I'm going in new and I'm like, okay, you know what? These senators I don't know as well as I know the House members. And I'm going to be knowing the House members better because I'm going to be with them in the same room every day doing all this stuff. But the Senate, they're kind of far away in a different area, and you don't talk to them as much, but they also have to like your bills in order for it to go anywhere. Right. And so I told Maddie, please set me up an appointment with every senator. And I think some of the senators were like, okay, like a little skeptical, like nobody does that. I think I was the only legislator that decided to go meet with every single senator in that body. But it was because I wanted to understand them. I wanted to see how they tick. Because how can I talk to them about anything if I don't understand them? How do I get them to understand me if I don't understand them? Right. So then when they even had to oppose me on some bills, I could at least say, I think I know why, though, because this bill relates to education. This person has a connection with education in this way. And they're probably hearing from people about that that have a concern. And so they maybe just can't get there. But I can give them the benefit of the doubt and not be angry and just move on to the next person and talk to the next person. And it's okay. So getting to know them, I mean, there's really the Stephen Covey principle, right? Seek to understand. It was just game at then to be understood. Okay, so this is a big one. But there's also a skill that I actually teach people how to teach their children, but it's an adult skill, okay, and everyone should know it, but we don't actually learn it anymore in our society. It's very rare if people learn this skill. And it also would ruin all of the drama online. So, of course, nobody wants to learn it because it would make it so that we don't have all the fireworks happening on our social media pages. Anyway, this skill is called disagreeing appropriately. And so, and I taught it to my children, I taught it to my foster children. And that's, you know, in almost every book that I write about parenting, I always mention that skill and how important it is because it's the gateway skill to self-government. If you are not in control of yourself, if you are not governed, you will not be calm. If you don't know what to say and how to get your point across, you're gonna go to the wrong part of your brain. You'll go to your stressed brain and it'll all come out wrong every time. You you might sometimes nail it with some ouchy statement, some dart that you throw out of your mouth, but most of the time you'll just feel like, oh, afterward, like that was a wreck. Oh, and the media will pick up on all the bad things that you said because you said them with emotion in your voice. These are the steps to the skill. So you look at the person or the situation. Are you being interviewed by the media? Are you talking to a legislator? Are you talking to your parents or your in-laws? You know, whatever. It doesn't matter. Okay, your spouse, you look at the person or the situation, you keep a calm face, voice, and body. So sometimes that means you have to understand how to get yourself calm. I have a whole free calm parenting toolkit that could work for anybody on my website that helps with that, but you have to get yourself to calm first. So, what does it mean to be calm for you? So you keep a calm face, a calm voice, calm body. That means you're in the front brain. Then you say that you understand the other person's point of view. So you say, okay, I understand that you really care about making sure that this marginalized population is not overlooked, right? So now you know, okay, I understand you. You don't have to tell me that piece anymore. And sometimes you can say that before they even get to very much of it because you just know that's why they're there, right? So then you can say that, and then you say your point of view. But one thing I want you to understand is, and then you share your point of view, and then you listen to what they have to say. If any more discussion happens because of that, because you may have to do that piece again and again and again throughout the conversation. But then at the end, they either accept your point of view or they don't, but you can't control it. Now, I'll say that sometimes there are some powerful statements that come in these moments. When I was talking to a group, this was a group of teachers, and I'm just gonna be really vulnerable. Okay, so there was a group of teachers, they were mad about a bill. It wasn't my bill, it was somebody else's bill that says that you couldn't fly certain flags and have certain insignia in your classroom because it's pushing a certain worldview. So this group of teachers came to me, and one teacher in the group brought up that bill because he was mad about it. And he's like, Well, what about that bill? And where are you at with that bill? And he was, you know, upset. And he said, Our students need a safe place. And I looked at him and I said, You know what? I also want safety for the students. I'm glad that we can agree on that. I said, I am in favor of that bill, that may not make you happy. But if we put stickers, signs, or flags on some people's classroom to say that this place is safe, then what we are saying is every other teacher is not safe, and I am not willing to do that. I said because all of our teachers love the students, not just the ones who put certain flags or stickers out. And he couldn't say anything to that. He was still mad, but he was stuck. But you know what? All the other teachers in the group, I wasn't speaking for him per se. I did seek to understand him, and then I shared my point of view, but I was speaking for that whole other group of people, and that's another thing you've got to remember whenever you're talking to someone, you're not just talking to that one person. It's easy to get stuck in a debate with one person and forget anybody else is there. That is a problem. You've got to keep your eyes open. So here I am in a group of like 10 teachers. Well, at that point, those other 10 teachers all were like, hmm. Some of them were probably like, she's got our back because I don't want to fly that flag. That's not what I stand for, right? And I don't think it should be that way at school. And other ones might be wanting to fly the flag and go, I hadn't thought of that, right? Or something like that. And so what you say should make sense and it should advocate for other people and should show love.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

I love this so much because it's reasonable, right? It's it's being able to be logical, reasonable, and still have compassion. And it really lends itself to we really wanted to know more about, especially for the young adult generation, but this matches for the moms too, is when you get in those situations, how can you remain articulate when you're in high pressure, high intense, or like when she was going to the UN and my daughter Chelsea went and spoke at the at that same UN? What are some things that some tools that these students can use, not just to stay calm, but to be confident in how they speak? Because sometimes if someone's coming at you with an opinion, an agenda, you can start shrinking and feeling like, oh, I don't think I can say what I was gonna say. So, how can you help these young adults maybe have some tips or tools to be able to stand in that space or confidence?

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Okay, so Connie and Maddie, I am unapologetically a God-faring, God-loving woman. Okay. And so I'm just gonna bring that right in because I already mentioned like my source of strength. That's it. Okay, that's it. Where does my allegiance lie? So you can have four different allegiances. You could have either an allegiance to God or goodness, which I have, okay? Or you could have an allegiance to evil or wickedness, which most people don't have, but there's some, okay? There's some that do. And and I think in this day and age we're seeing like that person really gave their whole soul to Satan or something. And then you can have an allegiance to others. Oh, I just want other people to feel good. If they feel good, I have value. Or you could have an allegiance to self, okay, which is how do I look to other people? How what power do I get? What do I get out of it? Am I gonna be elected again? I am here with a job to do, I am trying to bring some goodness to it. And if I don't get elected again, then I don't. But at the end of the day, I have to hold my head high, okay? So I know who I follow and why I'm in the game. And that's because my allegiance is to God. So when we're talking about things that we can say, because that's the question that you're asking. What can you say? What can you think? Okay, so in the moment, always think front brain, front brain, front brain. Okay, so like your front brain is where you hook all your pieces together, your midbrain, you're going emotional. Your back brain, you've got maybe 10% ability to think. So you can't get stressed. That is important. If you get stressed, you will get sucked in. And there are certain behaviors that actually lead to a more incited or stressed brain, even if you don't feel stressed. So, just another UN example. Okay. A number of years ago, and this was it's been a long time now, when I first started going to the UN, there was a demonstration that was going to be done by a group of people that I completely align with. Okay. They were demonstrating at a certain office that was doing some really bad things to children. And I agreed that that office needs to know that people don't agree with what they're doing and that there needed to be something that might make the news. Okay. So I was part of the demonstration. I had a sign, and we're walking on the street and whatever. And everyone in the demonstration that kept getting the microphone as they were talking were like yelling and screaming and everything. And I never planned on saying anything. Okay. The leader of the demonstration, who, oh my goodness, is such a God-fearing beautiful woman, she said, Nicoline, will you speak to us? And it was like, right then, put the microphone in your face. And I'm walking around chanting with all the people. And so my behavior was not calm at the time. Even though it's not like I was, it's not like I was really fuming. And so this is a moment I'm ashamed of. And she was probably thinking, this is getting a little out of control. We need Nicoline because it'll be calmer and she'll be calm. But no, I'm in here listening to these people yell and I'm walking around and getting caught up in it. They hand me the microphone and I just started repeating and saying in in aggressive ways things that kind of had already been said. And while I was saying it, I was like in my head, what are you doing? And afterward, I felt terrible about it. I felt like I had my moment when I could have been the calm in the storm that made it so that this message meant more than it did. And I missed it. I missed it because I got caught up. And so here's the thing: you can't get caught up. Okay. If you're going to have something to say, do not get caught up in what's on the news or what's on the social media or your own emotional stuff. You cannot. You have to know what the calm feels like. You have to know what it feels like when you're in the front brain. You have to know. If you do not feel that calm that's in you at that time, and you know it's time to say something, or it's soon going to be time to say something because you're listening to them. That is the moment where you just pray, sister. You pray. And you pray to get yourself in front brain. And you just ask God, I need you to put my chemicals in alignment here, God. Put me into front brain. What do I need to see that others do not see? Help me hear what others do not hear. Help me say the things that you would have me say. And when I ask for his help, I say, help me to know the things to say and the things not to say. And I say, bless me with the sword of the spirit, that I will be able to touch the hearts with the words that I say. And you know what, God, I'm not going to invest in what I think and in my own logic. I am going to just be your instrument. And I just turn myself over and I say, I dedicate this to you. And I will just say it in my head as I'm walking to a speech, or even sometimes right as somebody's coming up to talk to me, okay, Lord, I'm yours. I will say what you want me to say because I don't always know everything. Yeah. I can. Yeah, I can't. I mean, study, study, study, study. But at the end of the day, the people who are good in these conversations are the ones who have their allegiance. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

We're hearing a lot of incredible things that confidence is so important to have, especially confidence in what you believe, but also to be self-aware of how we're speaking, how it may come across to others. And that we need to better understand where other people are coming from so we can make those common ground moments and we can understand them so we can confidently state our opinion and help them see that. And to our all all of our everyday listeners, we're teaching them how to lead. And maybe some might not feel ready to lead yet, but we believe that everyone is born to lead. How have you felt called to lead as just an everyday human being?

SPEAKER_00 23:27

I'm glad you said that because I am an everyday human being. Like you can read the bio and watch the YouTubes and all the things, but at the end of the day, what did I put at the beginning of the bio? Mother, grandmother. I'm just a lady. I realized a long time ago about who you are, your purpose, your mission. It's really not about what you do or the attention you get for things that you do. Because I think people worry about the attention that they get. They they think that they're not making an impact if they didn't get a certain amount of attention. That is not true. So your mission is more about who you are than it is about what you do. And when you're talking about who you follow, you're talking about your identity, really. Yes. Who are you? Do you know? So there are two things that increase confidence because you were mentioning confidence, okay? Two things. Number one thing is knowing who you are and who you follow, okay? That's huge. And this is why the whole world is trying to figure out what identity even means, okay? Because they think it means stuff that they like or whatever. No, it's deeper than that. You have to go to those truths, those things that are they're irrefutable. They're like, I was born as a woman. So what does it mean to be a good woman? I married, so what does it mean to be a good spouse? I'm a sister, so what does it mean to be a good sister? When you go back to those roles and those identities, you have to identify those and then magnify them. You don't say, I really, really love cartoons, so I'm a cartoon character. No, that's not how it works. You don't get to invent that. So knowing who you are, this is huge, and who you follow goes along with who you are. Okay. Do you follow media? That would be the cartoon character example, or do you follow, you know, a higher authority? For me, it's God. Then the second thing is the work. You have to put in the work. So I think people are never confident in what they're going to say if they haven't actually studied. If they are just following what other people say, they don't have much to go on. And if people don't agree, they're probably going to get emotional. So what you have to do is you have to do your work and you have to study. Not only do you study about your identities, in my case, that would be studying scripture and immersing myself in God's word. Okay, then I'm going to start studying other things. I might, I might watch some stuff related to news or read some articles that academics put out, read some studies, read tons of books that are classical, they're going to bring me back to my truths too. So then when I see stuff happening around me, I actually have a lot more to say because I can syntopically hook more pieces together. There's different levels of learning. There's the elementary learning where you know what you read and you can regurgitate it back. That's where most people stay. And they're never confident when they're there because they have to wait for somebody else to give them another talking point to say. If you can get to a higher level of learning where you learn this, this, and then you can syntopically put it together, you will always feel like you have something to contribute and that you are a valid part of the conversation. So the work and the identity are huge. And what does the regular person, Nicoline Peck, do? She focuses on knowing who she is, reading her scriptures, saying her prayers. I mean, like these little basic answers, right? But doing those things and then also just being a constant student. And then the other thing I do is in the moments where I feel like, oh, it's nervous to go talk to the people, then I tell myself, right then, that means you need to go talk to the people. So I practice talking to the people. And I had to do that a lot before I felt like I was really, really good at that. I have just one thing on prayer and on scripture. I was just speaking at Harvard this last week. I at a big symposium, they asked me to come in and speak about some educational issues. And I was sitting at dinner with this guy, never met him before in my life. And we were talking about things, and he started pushing with me on what I felt the purpose of all these different things were. And then I started basically just saying, Well, you know, this is what I think. And he's like, Well, why? And I said, Listen, for me, it comes back to God. I spend time in my scriptures every single day, if I can, up to an hour or two a day trying to read God's word. And this man who was a lot older than me, he's like, Are you kidding me? Every day and he was a religious man. And I said, Yes. And he said, That is so admirable. He's like, I have tried really hard to just read like a psalm a day. And he's like, But I have to make a total system to do it. He's like, and I thought I was really doing something. And he's like, You're way younger than me, and you're doing that. And I said, Well, I've just made it a habit in my life. I don't feel like I can navigate this world without surrounding myself with more truth than there is false that's going on around me. And he was like, Wow, I would support anything you do. I want to read your books now. And we'd never met each other before. But it was just mind-blowing to him. Simple thing that I would spend time strengthening my core.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

But I love the example that you just gave because it isn't so much what we say. We know everything comes back to trust. If you trust the person talking, what would you do if you trusted them? Well, then you're open. You'll listen, you'll participate in something with them because suddenly you feel this the lack of fear, the lack of defenses. And it's because you're living in alignment, right? So I think that's a very key piece of that confidence is living in alignment with that identity, with those values, with those things that you're pursuing that you feel strongly about, that you're living in that everyday alignment. I wish we could talk for another hour. Nicoleine, this is so fantastic. And we're hoping listeners have gotten some beautiful pieces and some principles that you can take home. I know I personally love you. Talked about really seeing people and then the way to get to calm, that you start with the calm, you look at the person, stay in that front brain, and then be able to say, I understand, then be able to state your own feeling or belief. And I would assume you wrap it up with, I really appreciate your time. I appreciate the time that we've had together to be able to share this. I've learned so much. Being able to have that common ground. So we've talked about some really key pieces today. We hope that you got something great. If so, please post it below. You can go on our Instagram, Born to Lead, or you can DM us and let us know. And then we'd love to share it. But we'd love to know what you're actually getting and then how you're applying it in everyday situations. And I know people are going to want to know more about how to reach you and how to find you, Nickeline. What's the best way for them to reach you?

SPEAKER_00 29:59

I mean, there's a lot of different things legislative legislatively you can reach me, but I will say that probably going to teaching selfgovernment.com. There's a lot of information there. I know a lot of it relates to parenting, but there's some contact there, and you can you can contact me through that uh website. You can find me on social, right? I'm on Instagram, so go there. I'm on Facebook, I am on Twitter. That's perfect.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

And that's exactly what they'll need to know. I know they're gonna want to get more information. Thank you so much for being with us today. This has been so enlightening and so insightful.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

And next time, knowing that you are born to lead, how will you live to lead for him?