Milo Putnam: Every Travel Choice Is a Vote

Milo Putnam spent a decade as the public face of a zoo. He wrote the scripts, managed the tours, went live on camera. Then he watched three elephants die at the facility he worked for. And realized he couldn't keep being the spokesperson for something he no longer believed in.

That reckoning became Laro — a media company dedicated to cutting through the greenwashing that plagues wildlife tourism. Today, Milo is an Ambassador and Mentor at the Conscious Travel Foundation and a communications manager at Re:wild. He's been featured in Vox calling out the buzzwords operators use to make tourists feel good while animals pay the price.

In this conversation, we explore what it actually takes to tell ethical wildlife tourism from exploitation, how to vet an experience before you book, and why words like "rescue" and "sanctuary" can mean absolutely nothing. We talk about the moments when speaking up mid-trip is the hardest — and why doing it anyway matters. We talk about what it means to travel as a gay man in places where that can be illegal. And we end with a game that reveals Milo's ultimate wildlife bucket list.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries — gfas.org
• World Animal Protection — worldanimalprotection.org

🎙️ Back to 2050 is a podcast about the people building a better world, one bold idea at a time.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We've all heard it. By 2050, there'll be more plastic in the ocean than fish. Irreversible climate tipping points. Mass extinction. But what if we could go back to 2050 and rewrite that script? What if oceans were thriving? Climate stabilizing? Wildlife rebounding. For an hour today, maybe 2050 isn't a deadline. Maybe it's the future we're actively building right now. I'm Jessica Alseed, and this is back to 2050. Spotlighting the people building the future we want to see, one bold move at a time. So most travel companies tell you where to go. My next guest tells you whether you should. Milo Putnam is the founder of Laro, a story-driven media company and curated ethical wildlife tourism worldwide. He's essentially a wildlife tourism detective, doing exhaustive research and vetting before endorsing any experience. He's an ambassador and a mentor at the Conscious Travel Foundation and has been featured in Vox, calling out buzzwords operators use to make the tourists feel good while the animals pay the price. Milo, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

It is so great to be here, Jessica. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

It's 2050 today. You spent your whole life fighting ethical wildlife tourism. What does the world look like and how did we get there?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Amazing. Well, if I could dream up what 2050 looks like, it's really not that far away. It's only 20-some years away. And I'm gonna dream big. I'm going to say 2050 looks like no more cetaceans in captivity, no more whales and dolphins performing, no more elephant rides, no more performing wildlife in circuses and traveling shows, and a deeper understanding of what treating wildlife with respect looks like when it comes to tourism. I know that's ambitious. I know that's a lot to ask for, but the science shows that these species are too complex to live within these settings. And I hope by the year 2050 that we can get there.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Take me back to the beginning. How did your obsession with wildlife start? How did all this brood in your brain?

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Yeah. I wish I had a acute, like aha moment as a kid, but the reality is, is I always loved animals. I don't know exactly why. There was never this like one family pet that tipped me off or this moment in the woods. I was a lucky kid who grew up with a really big backyard and I was always outside exploring. But I was also the kid that dreamed big dreams of traveling the world to see other wildlife. It wasn't just the native wildlife that was, you know, locally where I lived. And those big dreams had to kind of be measured down because I couldn't fly around the globe when I was, you know, eight years old necessarily, had to be more realistic. And for me at that time, in that age, connecting with wildlife meant going to local zoos. And I grew up connecting with animals that I wouldn't have seen otherwise in my backyard and here in the United States, even, um, by visiting them in captivity. And I became obsessed. It was, I truly was insatiable. I wanted to know every detail about weird species. I wanted to know individuals that lived at the zoos, what was it like to take care of them? I was a kid that instead of wanting to play sports, I was busy sitting on the sidelines, like sketching up plans of like if I built a zoo. Like I was, I was a kid that grew up in the 90s. So I was around with zoo tycoon and all those kind of like build your own experiences. And I really, really took that to heart and lived that. I did that too.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

I did that, I did that too. I had a when I was 10 years old, I drew a map of the zoo I was gonna build. And I were gonna have lions that were rescued, and I was gonna have like animals for them to hunt. And I had this whole plan of building a zoo. Well, I'm glad I didn't, but I connect with you on that.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

That's incredible. I love that. And I am in the exact same boat as you. It's interesting to look back on those younger years and just how much I've evolved and grown since then. Um, but yeah, no, that obsession always existed. And and I was so motivated by it that everything I did from extracurricular activities, like through middle school and high school, I started volunteering at a really young age. When I was like 13 years old, I was starting to volunteer at a local zoo. I was the youngest volunteer on the team. Um, but I was so passionate about it and I knew that I needed those ingredients to get to where I wanted to be. Um, and at the time I wanted to be a zoo keeper. I wanted to be a zoo director. I wanted to take care of elephants, I wanted to work closely with these wild animals.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Because this was the concept of wildlife for you.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Oh, yeah. Well, and it was the it was an intimate concept of wildlife. It was the proximity to wildlife. It wasn't just studying them out in nature and knowing how disconnected that can feel sometimes. I mean, when my world was a bit smaller growing up, having that close proximity to wildlife was, oh gosh, it was just like so appealing. Um, so I ended up doing all of those kind of like foundational steps to actually do my undergraduate work. My bachelor's degree of all things is in zoo science. It's not in zoology, it's not biology. It's wow, so hyper specific. Um, so specialized that I mean, my classes were literally taught at the zoo by the curators and the directors. Um, so my background is very, very zoo centered.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

And so you you worked in zoos after that.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

I did, yeah. So I suppose that yeah. So I did my undergraduate in zoo science and then be bobbed around to a few different accredited facilities that were accredited by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums. And then I did my master's work in environmental education because I knew after kind of doing internships and volunteering opportunities that being close to wildlife was incredible, but I also had a desire to connect with people and share my passion and foster that in other people. And that really led me to informal education and working in kind of an environmental conservation education scope. So through that, I spent about a decade working in different zoos. I moved around different states and sent the longest stint in South Carolina, um, where I worked in education for a long time and kind of interpretation for the general public. I was the person on microphone and writing the scripts at the sea lion feeding. Wow. Managing behind-the-scenes tours with penguins on the weekends and making sure people were feeding the grizzly bears safely on their behind-the-scenes tours. And um, that kind of grew and evolved to looking for a larger audience, like working within this facility, I could only ever have so many people on a tour, so many people, you know, at a talk or at a demonstration. And that led me to marketing and communications and being able to storytell on a bigger scale and really connect with people differently. Um, and that was kind of where my zoo career piece ended. Yeah, kind of had my full aha moment.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

That's what I was gonna ask. You had a moment where you were like, okay, the things I actually stand for is very contradicting with what you're doing in the zoos.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yeah. Well, and that was a hard reckoning. I mean, I deeply identified within my career. I mean, for me, it was always such a blurred line between on the weekends, I was visiting other zoos and talking to colleagues that were also friends, you know. So it was like very much of my identity. It wasn't just a job. I wasn't just clocking in. It was a hobby and a career.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

So, what was the what was the aha moment like? Where did you go from this bothers me to I'm gonna do something about it?

SPEAKER_01 8:10

That's a great question. So for me, it wasn't one specific aha moment. Um, what would say it took years and it took a lot of reminders that kind of piled up. You could say maybe death by a thousand cuts would be a good analogy for it. Um, the reality was, in my position, I, for lack of a better word, I kind of became the spokesperson for the zoo I worked at. And having to do that, I was a part of press releases and interviews and getting on the local news, but then also like getting on live videos myself and sharing messaging. And that became more and more challenging the more I learned about the industry. It wasn't as simple as it once was when I was a little kid or even when I was in college. There were so many layers behind the finances, the ethics, the choices that the institution was making. But then also I had a, I guess, an aha moment of sorts that within the scope of my career, the things that I wanted to see change within the zoo and aquarium industry weren't changing fast enough. They just weren't moving. Um, and I would have to say if I had to find one specific event or events, um, the zoo that I worked for at the time um had a herd of four elephants when I first joined. And I worked for a total of what it was about seven years for this institution. And when I left, they had one remaining elephant that moved to another facility. So during my years of working at that zoo, I saw three different elephants die at the facility. And every single death was a reminder of the care that wasn't being provided, or the natural habitat that wasn't being replicated, or the social environment that wasn't really there for those individuals.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

What would they die from?

SPEAKER_01 10:01

There was a few different causes. All three of the females, um, female African elephants that passed away, um, were of various ages and of various um health conditions. But the reality is that zoos during the time when they were younger just weren't equipped to care for elephants. They, the science wasn't there, they didn't have them in social structures, they were high stress, the diet was different, foot care was different. Everything just was kind of subpar for what elephants would naturally get out in the wild. And in my role as kind of spokesperson, I had to play the role of talking to the public about that and writing content around that and answering questions. And that just became too challenging. And it uh it just didn't align with my ethics of what I would have done if I ran the zoo. If those were elephants that I was responsible for.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Were there like a lot of things that you can't unsee that you saw and you were like, I am, I just can't, other than the depths of those elephants?

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah. I mean, other than specific events like that. I mean, the reality is is I now haven't worked in zoos for a good handful of years, and I don't go. I don't, you know, go as recreation to go see wildlife in captivity. And I think the things that I can't unsee were the things that were just so normal to a zoo visit that any zoo visitor would see. There's not like a curtain to pull behind necessarily. These things aren't really hidden from the general public. A lot of it is stereotypic behaviors. It's wildlife pacing back and forth, it's repetitive swimming patterns. Um, I remember a lion at a facility I worked at that we could tell her apart from the rest of pride because of her nose. Her nose had no fur on it because she rubbed it away on the fencing as she was walking back and forth. So it's things like that that really stick with me after years of, you know, working within the industry, the things that are just kind of right in plain sight.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Are you against zoos now?

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Like, yeah, I would say my answer to that is a bit complicated. I have to be pragmatic in knowing that those animals can't be released back into the wild. There's no wild to release them back into. And and a vast majority of the thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

But a lot of them are stolen from the wild too.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Exactly. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, and it is it's too complicated to kind of summarize in one response. The reality is, is I don't think that zoos are doing as good of work as they could be doing. I think that the limits aren't pushed hard enough as far as conservation impact. A lot of breeding programs are to satisfy zoo populations and not necessarily wild populations. So captive breeding isn't always conservation breeding. Um so yeah, me personally, I have a pretty hard opinion about zoos, especially after all those years working in them.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

I've been questioning myself a lot about that because I I also grew up, I didn't go to many zoos, but I did grow up going to zoos. And I grew up in France. It's not like we have a ton of wildlife in France. So, you know, to this is what's also my access to to wildlife. And now I'm raising a daughter, and a few times my husband was like, Let's go to the aquarium. And I just don't want to take her to those pla to these places. But also, am I taking away, you know, the possibility for her to see some things that she's not gonna see every every year? Like I'm not gonna take her to Africa to see the I will probably someday, but you know what I mean. It's probably gonna be a few years before she sees a line. So I I I was questioning myself about where's the line? If I take her once, is that me crossing the line? If I never take her, is that me being cruel from taking that that chance away from her?

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Yeah, no, I think that Jessica, I really appreciate that you're asking yourself that question and and having those hard, you know, conversations. I think that's for individual families to decide and and kind of where people's ethics sit. I mean, I make my own choices around what food I consume or what activities I partake in. Um, but those aren't necessarily for everybody. And I can't necessarily have a a broad sweeping, you know, I can't, you know, tell everyone what to do with their For sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

And I I I understand that because I also have friends who take their their kids to zoos, and my first instinct is to be like, you shouldn't do that. But then also they are, you know, it's a fun thing to do in the weekend, and the kids they come back with so many, you know, new images and new new sensations and new experiences. So I also have a hard time drawing a straight line, but I I personally decide to avoid. I mean, last time I went to an aquarium, I left after 20 minutes crying. So I I can't I can't do it anymore. And I I think I will probably be more on the stricter side with that with my daughter. But anyway, let's move on. You so you after Desus, you went on you you kept on traveling and you decided to travel in a more um, let's say, eco-conscious type of way. You've traveled to a lot of places marketed as ethical. Um, have you seen a lot of things that were also not aligned with ecotourism?

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Well, I mean, like I had said before, I had such an obsession with wildlife and zoos and and kind of that like close proximity. So I over the years had the privilege to visit hundreds of different wildlife facilities, anywhere from tiny little city zoos to mega safari parks. And some were some of the world's best, and some of them were absolutely devastating. I've been to roadside zoos and places that have since been shut down, thankfully, um, because they were actually operating illegally, that really opened my eyes to just the challenge that a word like zoo could mean anything from a highly well-funded, huge footprint to a roadside zoo that's run by some individuals that are breaking the law and really running unethical practices. Um, and that's true with a lot of different wildlife experiences. So I felt really passionate about harnessing my background in barmel education and conservation education and using it to really focus in on an audience of travelers. Because the reality is, is just like me, travelers have a desire to connect with wildlife. And when they go to places like Thailand or Kenya, pretty top on their list is going to be seeing wildlife. And sometimes those easy accessible options are some of the most unethical options to support. So for me, I felt really passionate about creating resources and storytelling materials and really developing a narrative around the nuances of what should be celebrated and what really needs to be held accountable within this industry.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

There's a lot of words like rescue, sanctuary, eco park that are slapped on everything. How do you sniff out fraud?

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Oh, that's hard. Well, because they're self-assigned titles. I mean, I you you and I could decide to open up a rescue and call it, you know, wildlife animal haven. And nobody that's going to stop us. So there are some tools that I definitely use that are kind of a good starting point. Um, one of the first ones that I always recommend, if they if you're looking into a facility that uses rescue or sanctuary, one of the first resources that I recommend is the Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries. It's an international organization that actually accredited accreditates facilities that take care from anything from whales, elephants, horses, chimpanzees. I mean, they really do have quite a diverse range of species and all over the globe, anywhere from Central Africa to my backyard right here in New York. So I would definitely recommend starting there. Uh, another great organization that has tremendous resources that I always seem to be aligning with is world animal protection and what they stand for and what they support versus not support. Um, but the true reality is just how you started this conversation is it is detective work. There is certain things to look for. And that really comes with peeling back the layers of sniffing out reviews on the website, but then also finding unbiased photos that aren't just a part of this marketing package of like swim with dolphins, here's all these beautiful footage, but then also going to TripAdvisor, Google, all these different review platforms and sniffing out what actual travelers are experiencing too and seeing what are they getting tagged in on Instagram? Because maybe it's a little bit different of a view than what they're they're selling on their website.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

I did that last year. My husband again wanted to go to a sanctuary uh close to an hour from where I live. Yeah. And it it looked really great on the website, but I wasn't I wasn't feeling it. And but it kind of said that it was rescue bears and rescue moose and all the all the rescue, all the rescue animals. And I had to really do a lot of digging in trip advisor reviews to find out, even like previous workers from the sanctuary. Uh yeah, just saying these are not necessarily rescue animals, these are animals we captured. And yeah, yeah, then they couldn't go back to the wild, so we rescued them inside our sanctuary. And so I I couldn't do it. But it was crazy to see that on the website, if you just stick to the website, you really think you're going to a sanctuary and you're supporting an operation that saves animals.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Yeah, that's such a great example. I'm very impressed. Good job. Thank you for doing that.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Thank you. And well, have you ever arrived somewhere expecting one thing and then you realize mid trip, you know, going to something where you really felt it was a sanctuary, and then you get there and you're like, this is this is a real problem. What are we, what are we doing here?

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Yeah. Uh it has happened. It is unfortunately pretty common within the industry. I mean, there's a lot of different options. So even well-researched or well-intended individuals can end up in situations like I have. One that comes to mind, though, was a number of years ago. It was actually in Tanzania or off the coast of mainland Tanzania on Zanzibar. I was visiting with a friend and we specifically wanted to go see the red colibus monkeys that were only found in this one specific area, Josani National Park. And we unintentionally ended up with a very unprofessional guide who did not follow the park rules, and we ended up getting far too close to the monkeys and just ended up accidentally supporting something that wasn't ecotourism. It really was quite exploitative. Um the monkeys were so habituated to people being so close. It it was just, it was a really shocking experience. I ended up writing about it afterwards. If that wasn't bad enough, though, because we already kind of clued them into being animal lovers, instead of taking us back to our accommodation afterwards, um, they asked, like, whoa, do you want to go see sea turtles? I'm like, well, of course. Like, who wouldn't want to go see sea turtles? Thinking we were heading to the ocean, we headed further inland on the island and got out of the vehicle and walked down the straight road. And it ended up being this like salty pit of water that had dozens of sea turtles kept in it. The water was so murky you could hardly see them unless they were inches from the surface. And the scheme was to bring tourists there and have them buy lettuce and hand feed the sea turtles. And it was just so rattling of how easily that happened. That it was just, it was, well, do you like sea turtles? Yes. And there's the option. And it was just, it was a really humbling experience. It happened many years ago. Um, I don't even know if the facility still exists on the island, but it was such a humbling reminder of just how challenging it is to find those ethical opportunities and support them, and then speak up in the moment and actually tell your tour operator, your guide, your who. You're traveling with that, hey, this doesn't align. This isn't, this isn't what I signed up for. This really is is not what I want.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Um have you ever done that? Call out, call out. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah. And that's hard to do. That's not something that I like say lightly, like, hey, speak up and like speak your words. Because that's hard, because a lot of times it's happening in the middle of the wilderness and you're kind of depending on these guides. But no, I have unfortunately had to do that. Um, the times that I've done it, I I felt really passionate about doing so because I knew for a fact that we were breaking the law. So it wasn't that it was just making me feel uncomfortable as like what I would do for wildlife viewing. It was truly illegal for the national parks that we were in. Um, the instances that I can remember were in Kenya in Nairobi National Park. And then the other one was in India in Rantampur National Park, and one was with lions, and the other one was with tigers, unfortunately. And the first incident in Kenya, our guide, it was just myself and my husband. We were, it was just the two of us in this vehicle with our guide, and he had heard from the radio that there was lions actively hunting. Um, so of course, we're racing down the roads, you know, like as you would normally do. And the second he spotted the lions, and they had taken down um a gazelle. And without even thinking, our guide immediately took the vehicle off the road, got as close as he could to the lions, and I was just in shock. I was absolutely rattled because I knew for a fact that was one of the strictest rules in Nairobi National Park was that vehicles stay on the approved roadways and ended up getting in a bit of a yelling fit with our guide trying to explain as he was trying to encourage me to get a photo fast because we were breaking the law and hurry, hurry, get a good photo.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

And because that they think that's what you want.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Of course, of course. They think that all tourists, uh, there's no limits to what a good sighting can be at all costs. Get me as close as best as possible. And that was so far from the truth. Um, so after a bit of a dialogue, we ended up back on the road and completed our story. I said, take us back to the lodge. So unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

You're lucky they didn't abandon you right there with the lodge. Really, really.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

That's what makes it hard. I understand that these things aren't easy to speak up. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

I've seen that a lot recently on social media. Um well, maybe you know, people don't speak up directly, but then they post. I saw that with the Wilderby migration. Yes. Um, you know, where all the cars are like almost blocking the migrations so that tourists can you take pictures. I've seen that with orcas in Baja, where you have 15 uh it seems like to have gotten better since that viral video from a couple years ago, but where you have 15 boats chasing a pot of orcas and and you have a few tourists on the boats that are completely appalled. They're like, this is not right. This is not right. And the way they speak up is by posting on social media and it becomes rival. I don't know if there's any changes coming off of viral moments like that with the wilder bee. What's the outcome? I don't know if you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yeah, no, I would say that that's part of the movement, that's part of the shift towards global wildlife tourism. I mean, the reality is is our tourism dollars and where we spend our money is a vote of approval or disapproval. It's us cuing what should be the industry. And if less people are supporting it and being more vocal about better practices and best practices, then that will have a shift in the industry. And I do feel strongly about that. Um, that it is going to be largely up to the consumers, the travelers, to be informed of what is proper and what's too much. And no, we shouldn't be getting out of our vehicles by the Mara River crossing and blocking wildlife. Uh, the highways. I mean, these are truly highways for these animals to survive. And the disruption that that causes to natural behavior and rate rate of survival is is shocking.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

On the upside, yeah. Give me a moment where wildlife tourism was done right, where you felt like you were doing something good.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Yeah. I gosh, I mean, I feel like a lot of our conversation has been focused on a lot of negative. I will say my work with Laura and creating this like this true conversation and narrative around ethical wildlife tourism is to both hold accountable the things that are falling short, but then to also celebrate things that are stellar, that are just absolutely spot on, that are both supporting wildlife and local communities and indigenous people and are sustainable. Um, and something that comes to mind is actually here in the United States, it's in Texas. It's called Bracken Bat Cave. And Bracken comes to mind because it is the world's largest bat nursery, to the tune of like 20 million Mexican freetailed bats. I mean, uh millions and millions of bats, like more bats than you could even comprehend. And what is so incredible about this place is this cave is fully protected. Not just the cave itself, but thousands of acres around the cave to support this bat colony. And it's run by a nonprofit, it's run by Bat Conservation International. And what's incredible is all of that would be delightful to have those bats to be protected, to have a, you know, a nonprofit there to support. But what's so much fun is that Bat Conservation International also lets the public come in and get to see that firsthand. And they do it in such a measured way. It's only certain nights, it's only during certain times of year, and they have a really strict amount of people that can do it. And it's not just an open the gate and kind of tour yourself around. Everything is guided with a naturalist. So it's very educational and informative. And that experience was outrageous. It was so cool. It was one of my favorite wildlife experiences. It's the most wildlife I've ever seen in one sitting. I mean, millions. You literally, well, eventually you make your way to the opening of the cave right around sunset and wait for the bats to emerge. I mean, being nocturnal, they're gonna leave the cave and go out hunting for the night. They're gonna go look for insects. And it ends up, I mean, they really call it this, they call it a bat NATO. And it is so incredible because these bats are coming out of this opening and they're trying to like get enough momentum like out of this kind of gully that the cave is in. And in doing so, they're making this like swirl of flying bats all in this colony. And we're sitting back from a distance. I mean, we're not up on top of these bats by any means. All very ethical. But we everyone could feel the wind off of their wings. There were so many bats flying that it there was a breeze in the air from these tiny, I mean, they're little, little bats. And that was just incredible. That just like checked so many boxes for what ethical wildlife tourism can be because the dollars spent to go see those bats go right back into supporting bat conservation international. So it's just definitely one that I absolutely love celebrating.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Oh my God. I want to go.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Yes, you must. I would put it top on a bucket list. Absolutely, if you're ever in Texas.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

I will. I had a bat in my house, though. I gotta say, do not want to get too close from those.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Yeah, I was gonna say that's a little bit different than the 20 million F brackens.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Yes, hard, hard to picture. Uh, there was also this this national park in Vietnam, uh Yakdan Vietnam's national park that stopped elephant rides and rebuilt something better. Have you experienced many, many experiences like that of positive eco-tourism, or is this just like a shining star in a dark sky?

SPEAKER_01 29:43

No, thankfully it's it there's many, many shining stars. It's just finding the right spotlight to really highlight them. And what Yachdan National Park is doing. I mean, they're located in southern Vietnam, um, in a country that doesn't have a ton of wild Asian elephants and also not a lot of captive wild elephants, thankfully. Um, but like you said, they stopped doing elephant rides for tourists at the national park and instead have kept those captive elephants in the park. And they live in this beautiful semi-wild environment where they can forage naturally and make their way throughout the park and really live as naturally as they could from their years in captivity. I mean, these elephants worked for decades within the tourism sector. And what's beautiful too is Yakdan not only those elephants, but they're also working with a nonprofit called Animals Asia to also re-home other captive elephants from Vietnam to the national park that never lived there before, that did maybe logging work or other work in tourism, performances, um, and really give them the opportunity to live more naturally and in a sanctuary, a natural setting.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

I feel like there's like two forces in in Asia. There is like a lot of people doing good with elephants, and then there's still like old, old practices. I I went to Thailand, it was probably five 15 years ago, and I did elephant riding. And I thought that by not doing elephant ride on uh riding on a chair, that just riding on their back was okay. So I have a lot of pictures of me at you know, 20 years old riding on an elephant's back, and I I thought it was okay. That's what it was kind of uh marketed that you're not hurting them because you're not putting those chairs around their bellies. And today it I could never do this. Um and I and I really hope that this is um yeah, being canceled in a way in the this cancel culture.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Well, I have a really passionate opinion about it because I I too have uh an archive of images of me holding wildlife, bottle feeding wildlife, swimming with wildlife that I would never do again. That I would never ever, ever, ever do again. And I really am passionate about not shaming travelers and not, you know, wagging a finger and really making them feel guilty for that. Because from my perspective, it's it's truly just a case of a deepening sense of awareness of what does that look like. Because Jessica, I mean your example is actually very true. Yeah. If I'm going through the different phases of what's better, best and the best for elephants, yeah, yeah, chair is probably the worst.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

The worst.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

No riding is even better than that. You know, so there's layers and nuances to what we can do. Um, and I always try to uh share that. I mean, a lot of cases with tourism and elephants, specifically in Southeast Asia, is oh, okay, tourists aren't really looking to ride elephants as much anymore, not all. They're becoming a little bit more informed. So now they're a very big trend for a number of years now is elephant baths. It's getting tourists to actually get in the water, bathe them, scrub elephants down. And what's so interesting, it looks so harmless. It looks so joyful. The elephants love the water. Checks all these gray boxes. The reality is that the training involved with having an elephant do rides and having an elephant do baths is identical. It's still punishment-based training that's very abusive, that involves a lot of injury to the elephants and involves a lot of fear-based training too. And at the end of the day, it just doesn't give elephants a lot of choice. They don't get to choose to participate or not. They're forced to because it's about making money. It's not about making the elephants happy or healthy or supporting their natural behaviors. Um, so there is a shift happening and it and it is those little nuances, and it's uh it's making sure instead of fully canceling the culture of travelers, it's it's informing and providing resources for travelers to do better when they're in those situations.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

What does the relationship between local communities and wildlife tourism look like when it's working?

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Oh when it's working, it's one and the same. I mean, uh the reality is, is as travelers, it's our responsibility, regardless of where you're going in the world, if that's not your home, to be respectful and to have as small of a footprint as possible, to spend your money wisely and try to be as least amount of disruption to the area and to the local communities. Um, that being said, local communities are the folks and the people and the groups that are living alongside these wild, dangerous animals many times. And when it's working really, really well, um, both can succeed. And there can be revenue funds from tourism that can support local communities that can really change livelihoods. A project that I'm familiar with from my work with the Conscious Travel Foundation, um, they were actually a recipient of our community impact fund this last year. It's called Project Hugh. They're based in Lombok, Indonesia, and they work specifically with ecotourism around sharks. And what's so interesting is in order to actually get travelers out to go see sharks in the wild and go snorkel and dive, um, they use fishing boats, boats that are actually used typically to go hunt and fish and kill sharks. And by providing income to those fishermen instead for tourism. Oh gosh, what was it back in 2025? I think it was just over 2,000 sharks that the work of Project Q were able to prevent from being slaughtered because they were providing income to fishermen to, hey, take a day off from fishing and instead take out this boat of tourists and let's go snorkeling instead and go see them. Um so that it can satisfy both. It satisfies healthy shark populations and it satisfies local business people that are looking to like make a living.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

That's really amazing. I I've seen that was one community in Mexico, and I'm sure there are many, but I I always come back to this example of Cabo Pulmo that had have you heard of it? No, tell me more. They um Cabo Pulmo is a small fishing town uh on the coast of Baja, South Baja. And they had they had access to the beautiful sea of Cortes that was filled with everything you can't imagine. Lots of fish, sharks, rays, whales. Um, and within within a few decades, the the sea from where they were fishing was completely depleted, and um the fishermen were not able to fish anymore. And so they turned around as a community and they all became they all they created a marine protected area. Yeah that is called the Cabo Pumo Marine Protected Area. And for it took 10 years, I think 13 years, for the biomass to increase by 800%. It came back from the brink of extinction. And today, most of the fishermen became uh scuba divers, uh, you know, tourist guides. And it's one of the most luxurious, abundant uh life, you know, sea life that I've ever witnessed is where you can see the huge schools of jack, jackfish. They do tornadoes underwater. You can go swim with um bull sharks. Very, you know, they take five sometimes it takes five people, and you just sit there at the bottom. There's no shark feeding, and the the bull sharks are very calm. They're in their element, they're not bothered. There's just just a perfect example of how a community just uh, you know, rose and and just created this life um one-on-one with with their natural resources without exploit exploiting exploitation.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

So it's a beautiful example. Well, and to what I said earlier, it's not just a few twinkling stars. There's so many. There's so many examples like that around the world with fill-in-the-blank country, fill-in-the-blank wildlife, fill-in-the-blank community. And it's so incredible to see the momentum that is becoming much more common now within the travel industry. So it's amazing to hear that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

I hope you go. I hope we'll go. I would love to, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

I definitely have it on my list. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Well, changing topics, you are openly gay and you've you've talked about how queer people often feel excluded from outdoor and nature spaces. I've seen that recently in your in your content. Um when did you first feel that tension, you know, like loving the wild but not always feeling safe in it? Um, and especially in destinations that can be remote, culturally conservative, and uh, you know, sometimes really dangerous for LGBTQ plus uh folks.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Yeah. Well, I think uh it's a hard topic to talk about. I mean, the reality is that I've been to countries where me being openly gay is illegal. That is like not only frowned upon, it is truly a defense by law, which is wild to think of. Um, and the code switching that has to go into that of keeping myself safe, of choosing not to wear a wedding band or not having any sort of public displays of affection if I'm traveling with my husband, and and really having to have a deeper sense of awareness for our own personal safety. And and thankfully I've not had any nightmare moments, knock on wood. But the reality is, is that that is the case with outdoor spaces. I mean, a lot of times these are rugged kind of wilderness areas that do feel a bit inaccessible to folks that haven't been exposed to nature. And that's not just queer individuals, too. I mean, that's people of color, that's different minority groups that feel that there's a like a almost a bit of a fortress around, let's say, the wild, um, which is so shameful. That's so unfortunate. Um, nature is for everybody and and nature should be accessible and needs to be accessible. And and I wouldn't say that it was necessarily like one period in my life where that, you know, all of a sudden became so obvious. I think it was if you head to any state park, national park, county park when you're traveling, and you can note the lack of diversity of people that everyone kind of looks the same, or everyone kind of looks maybe a little too Caucasian or a little too identical to one another.

unknown 40:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Why is that, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Uh it's accessibility and safety. I mean, it's truly the fact that that representation just does not exist. I mean, there's a lot of things within the industry that just haven't facilitated diversity. I mean, I can think of a lot of really incredible wildlife spokespeople, but they are all very privileged white individuals from European nations and from the United States. And that representation just isn't existing from a young age for queer individuals, for example, or for people of color that see themselves as a wolf researcher in national parks, or that see themselves as a traveler that would go to Thailand to go see elephants in the wild. So that representation really, really matters and making sure that that's done safely and successfully. So I'm always a big advocate for supporting, for myself at least, supporting other queer organizations that are doing work to connect like-minded individuals to foster a sense of community and try to break down some of those barriers, whether that be equipment or security or logistics, even, and even just providing those kind of core moments for people to experience nature themselves. Um, some organizations that come to mind that I've either overlapped with or are familiar with are Venture Out Project here in the United States. They're a queer outdoor rack organization. Um, and then I want to say it's LGBTQ outdoors also comes to mind. They're very recreation focused. They have wildlife activities that they do also. Um, but it's moments like that that foster a sense of community and just staying connected and trying to break down those barriers and create better accessibility within nature.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

So for a queer traveler who's looking to connect with wildlife, or you would you would recommend connecting through those mediums first? Or would you have any advice?

SPEAKER_01 42:09

For those two organizations I just listed, those are very hyper-localized, especially within the United States. What I would recommend, I mean, this is gonna sound shameless, but I would recommend connecting with people like myself, people that have traveled, other queer travelers that are visiting the world that do have that lived experience and can say, Oh, well, keep your eye out for this, or like this was my experience, or when my husband and I were here, and and really kind of stitching that fabric of what it's like to actually be in those countries or to be in those national parks.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Um you connected with a lot of queer people in your travels? Like, do you have like a network where you can refer reference people? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Yeah. I have my own community. Right. I am always looking for more though, as far as when it comes to like actually encountering other folks like me out in the wild that's far and few in between. It's so unfortunate. I mean, my recent trip out to Yellowstone National Park here in the United States, so in Wyoming. Not jealous at all. Oh my gosh, it was such an incredible I was like blown away by the wildlife sightings that we had. Um, but it was also such a really like rattling reminder of how different or ostracized being queer in the American West or in rural America still feels. I mean, I live within a bubble of New York City right now where that's really not the case. Like I'm not unique or special or different in any sort of way because of my sexuality. But out in Yellowstone National Park, my goodness, yeah, we went a solid week without seeing very many queer people. And that's not to say that LGBTQI plus folks don't live within those spaces. It just it would I would love to see a deeper sense of community and more connectivity there.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

And I'm How do you think that can happen? How how do you think that change can happen?

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Conversations like this. And folks connecting. I mean, somebody I have to always give her her roses is uh incredible drag queen, an environmental drag queen, a climate activist, Patty Gonia. If you don't know of her, you need to Oh, I've heard.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

Yeah, she was in the headlines recently. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

You are familiar. Okay. So I give her roses because she fosters such a beautiful sense of community wherever she is. But then also, I she actually runs a job board for environmental outdoor seasonal jobs, full-time jobs. And I actually ended up in my full-time conservation role because of her job board. So it's connecting with people like that that can really, like I said, kind of stench together that fabric of connectivity between individuals.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

We haven't talked too much about what you're doing now, but you were earlier when you were talking that you you kind of got into storytelling and now you're a manager, a communication manager at ReWild. That's pretty impressive. Do you get to now tell stories, you know, that feels good to you and feels aligned with your values?

SPEAKER_01 45:02

That's very sweet of you to ask that. I absolutely feel yeah. No, it is so nice to work within an organization that feels so complete in the sense of matching my ethics and what I think our world deserves and what we need to do to support biodiversity. Um, but it's also so incredible to continue to have that blurred line between my passions and my work and what I do for Laurel versus what I get to do for ReWild on the team. Um, it's just incredible. I I I live it. I can't stop thinking about wildlife all the time.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

It's changed and grown since I was an eight-year-old kiddo, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

It's really incredible to hear all this progression, you know, from you being a kid to all the transformation you you went through to to finally feel like a sense of uh, I don't know, purpose and on track with your with your values. It's really inspiring.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

I appreciate that. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Um let's let's end end this conversation with some tips for travelers. Uh someone's planning a trip and wants to see wildlife ethically, uh, where do they even start? I know you we tackled this a little bit, but quick touch and go.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

Yeah, I'll give you a fast answer. Start with Laura. Reach out to me. If you want tips and tricks, I will either give you my lived experiences and what I would recommend, or I will find the right people in the right places to give you those answers. So start with Laura.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Awesome. Start with Laura. And you just you describe yourself as a detective before you endorse anything. Um what does an exhaustive research look like?

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Oh my gosh, yeah. My detective hat, my Sherlock Holmes. So it definitely starts with like what we said. I mean, what you had done with that um local kind of rescue, not rescue. Um, it's looking at photos, it's looking at reviews. I I love, I have found the most helpful when I'm looking at trendy facilities or locations to go to Instagram and search their location and if they're tagged in posts. I want to see like the real authentic, like where are travelers posting? Because the travelers are the ones that want to show off their best photo. And for some travelers, that means feeding animals or riding animals or touching or holding. And that's what I want to see. That's sometimes what gets hidden from websites of these organizations. So that's that's a hot tip that I always give folks. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Okay. And what are three biggest things that uh should make a traveler walk away?

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Ooh, it's always so complicated. Everything with wildlife is so complicated. It's hard to summarize. I would say baby animals are always a red flag. Why are there babies here? Are they bred to sell tickets? Are they have you have a photo op? Is this for a selfie? Baby animals always give me a big red flag.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Tiger King. Is this Tiger King?

SPEAKER_01 47:43

Oh, I am definitely thinking Tiger King. Absolutely. Thankfully for the Big Cat Safety Act, that is no longer a thing in the United States, but it still does happen globally. So baby animals, definitely a big red flag. Feeding is a red flag. If we're hand feeding wildlife, that that's giving me some pause. If we're tossing fish to sea lions, if we're feeding bananas to elephants, I want to know some more information that that's changing natural behaviors. If we're feeding wildlife in the wild, whoo, huge red flag.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

No bueno.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Very alarming. And then close contact. Are we touching wildlife? Are we like actually getting so close that we're able to touch, hold, have that so close contact with? I have a lot of questions then. That's gonna be a big red flag for me.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Yeah. Okay, noted. Thinking about my neighbor who feeds the deers. Um is there is there a difference between what's legal and what's ethical in wildlife tourism?

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Oh yes, no, and maybe sometimes. Ethical is is a personal kind of ethos. It's uh a boundary, it's uh best practices. And unfortunately, what's legal and illegal sometimes exceeds what's ethical and it really, really deeply protects wildlife in nature. But then sometimes what's legal is falling short and just really not doing a good job protecting wildlife. So I'll give you a a yes and answer to that.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

I am in Mexico, it's uh it's it's illegal to swim with humpback whales, but it's not necessarily illegal to swim with other types of whales. So it's it's um there's a lot of murky waters around that and example about and it's up to like individual folks to be like, no, it should be illegal to swim with any type of whales. Or or orcas considered in those, should we keep, you know, uh you know, so it is it is very blurry. Um what's one thing travelers do with good intentions that actually can cause harm? Well, your neighbor is a great example.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

Feeding wildlife. That is such a good example. And I see it all the time, and it's such a hard thing to correct people for because they think they're being so helpful. Um, because of course animals want to eat free food. I would love free food myself. The reality is food is a huge motivator to change natural behaviors. It can change seasonal patterns, it changes diets, it can change biology within animals as far as what nutrients they're getting and what's healthy and what's not. So feeding is it's a really hard one because people think it is so helpful and so sweet and so harmless. Um, but it can be potentially very harmful.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

Noted. Yeah. I'll I'll I'll see if I'll I'll talk to her. Um and uh one last question for you. I was wondering uh what's gonna be like for you in the next few years? Where where do you want to take this in the next few years? And and what does a bigger vision look like for Laro and for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 50:32

Yeah, no, I'm so excited. So for Laro, it's all about growth and scale and partnerships. Laro is a storytelling platform that is only successful with partnerships and collaborations. So those experiences that I was able to have out in Yellowstone National Park were only possible by working with travel companies, researchers, naturalists out in the field, the people that really intimately know that landscape the best. So when I think of growth for Laro in the next handful of years and down into the future, it's bigger and more intentional partnerships. It's getting in the right places, it's getting where people are dreaming of going and having maybe some great ethical experiences or where there could be some work and improvement done and partnering really intentionally to celebrate or hold accountable those activities.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Is there a big like bucket list item? Actually, let's not answer that. Okay. I want to end, I want to end uh with a game and I'm going to give you two wildlife experiences you you can pick from. And so fast, yeah, one or the other, fast first instinct, no overthinking. And we're going to work away to whatever is actually at the top of your bucket list. But obviously, you might I mean, you probably have like a whole list of things I'm not gonna mention. So let's see if it gets even close. So if you had to choose between humback whale swimming and serengeti lion pride at sunrise.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Ooh, lion pride at sunrise.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Okay, so between lion pride at sunrise and borneo oranghutan trekking.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Oh, that one's hard. Orangutan tracking is so fraught right now. There's so many ways to do that unethically. I would do orangutan trekking, though. I want I like want to do it the right way. Yeah, orangutans.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Okay. So between Borneo orangutan trekking and Antarctic penguin colony.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Oh, oh, that's tough. I've never seen either of those species or groups of species in the wild before. I uh I think I'm gonna stick with Borneo. I'm sticking with orangutans.

SPEAKER_00 52:31

Okay, we're getting somewhere between Borneo and orangutan and great white shark diving.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

Oh, definitely shark white great white shark diving. I got I have feelings about. So yeah, let's go with orangutan.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Okay, so Borneo orangutan trekking and black rhino on foot.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Oh, black rhino on foot. I've done white rhino on foot. I'm I'm sticking with orangutans. Wow, you're making me an ape uh an ape fanatic.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Borneo orangutan? It's really hard to say for me. It is versus wild spinner dolphin rod.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Oh, wild spinner dolphin rod. I was so lucky I get to spend so much time whale watching and looking for marine wildlife. I'm gonna stick with my Borneo orangutans.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Okay, let's do it one more time. Borneo orangutan trekking versus monarch butterfly migration.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

Oh, I talked to so many people that say that seeing the monarch butterflies in Mexico is just an absolutely life-changing experience. Oh, Jessica, you're the worst. I'm okay here. I'm gonna I'm gonna switch because I know that there are a lot of challenges with seeing orangutans out in the wild and doing it ethically. So I'm gonna pivot. I'm gonna support local communities and go see those monarch butterflies in Mexico.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

Wow. Monarch butterfly versus harpy eagle in the Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

Monarchs. I'm saying that's a win.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

We're going to Mexico.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Mexico. Welcome I flight.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

I've actually been so close. I lived in Mexico for three years and I've been so close and I've never made it happen. So that's something I would love to do. Yeah. We should do that, my love.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

That was such a fun game. Thank you for doing that. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

Oh well, I'm so happy you made you took the time. It took us six months to plan this uh with our busy schedules. Uh, but I was so thrilled to to talk with you and learn more about who you are, what you do, and um booking my next trip soon. So I will reach out to you for more ethical tips on how to make a really purposeful wildlife trip.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

Amazing. It was delightful getting to talk to you. Thank you so much, Jessica.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

You've just listened to an episode of Back to Twenty Fifty. If you liked it, please share it along. If it sparked something in you, I'd love to hear about it. And if you know change makers, building solutions, who should be on this show, send them my way. More episodes on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. I'm Jessica Alcid, and this was Back to Twenty Fifty. Thank you for listening.