Why Leaving the Path That Doesn't Belong to You Is the Boldest Growth Move with Robert Liberatore

Embracing Inner Change: The Journey of Creativity and Self-Discovery with Robert Liberatore

In this episode of the Life Is podcast, Robert Liberatore shares his remarkable transition from engineering to storytelling through filmmaking and documentaries, illustrating how inner self-awareness catalyzed his life's evolution. Discover how his journey exemplifies the power of embracing uncertainty, curiosity, and authenticity to craft a fulfilling life.

Key topics:

• The importance of internal honesty in career transitions
• Leveraging travel for creative growth and storytelling
• Building long-term momentum versus seeking instant success
• Lessons learned from working with brands in-house vs. freelancing
• The influence of travel on visual storytelling and cultural understanding
• Pursuing documentary filmmaking as a form of legacy and legacy creation
• The impact of embracing uncertainty and fluidity in life and work
• Exploring new ventures in wellness and the cannabis space

Timestamps:

00:00 - 03:00 - Introduction: Creativity, culture, and Robert's journey from engineering to filmmaking
03:00 - 07:00 - The decision to leave engineering and discover creative passions through travel
07:00 - 11:00 - Balancing athletics, academics, and the awakening to creativity
11:00 - 15:00 - Embracing curiosity in photography and videography; defining a fulfilling life
15:00 - 19:00 - Overcoming doubts, fears, and the influence of sports discipline on resilience
19:00 - 23:00 - Transitioning from engineering ambitions to creative pursuits and persistence
23:00 - 27:00 - The power of incremental goals and how travel expands perspectives
27:00 - 31:00 - Shifting from hobby to career in photography and building creative intuition
31:00 - 35:00 - Balancing discipline with creative exploration and facing early career doubts
35:00 - 39:00 - Travel as a tool for self-discovery and consistency in building a creative business
39:00 - 43:00 - Humility, honesty, and pursuing passions while maintaining momentum
43:00 - 47:00 - The leap of traveling with limited funds and travel's impact on perspectives
47:00 - 51:00 - Developing a portfolio through early gigs and influence on visual storytelling
51:00 - 55:00 - Leaving comfort zones, strategic creative decisions, and content use
55:00 - 59:00 - Understanding content distribution, handling uncertainties, and freelancing
59:00 - 63:00 - Confidence in pursuing full-time creative work and in-house brand storytelling
63:00 - 67:00 - Balancing instant success with steady momentum and COVID-19's impact
67:00 - 71:00 - Insights from in-house vs. freelancing and pre-production in storytelling
71:00 - 75:00 - Business acumen for creatives and full circle storytelling in Peru
75:00 - 79:00 - Crafting stories of human resilience and challenges in documentary storytelling
79:00 - 83:00 - Influence of passions on creative projects and exploring wellness and hemp
83:00 - 87:00 - Evolving relationship with uncertainty and reflecting on personal growth
87:00 - 91:00 - Life is always evolving: An inspiring reminder and connecting with Robert

Resources & Links:

• Coherence Diagnostic 
• Libtography.com - Use Code LIFEISPOD10 for 10% discount
• Make Space Short Film

Connect with Robert:

• Instagram
• Ground Up Podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Life Is Podcast, where creativity, culture, mindset, and intentional living come together through real conversation. I'm your host, Cloy Brown. Each week I sit down with entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, travelers, and visionaries who didn't stumble into a life they love, they built it. We go deep into how they think, how they reconstructed themselves, and what became possible on the other side. This is not just about what people have accomplished, it's about the internal work that made it sustainable. Because when you build from the inside out, life expands. Let's get into it. This week, I'm sitting down with someone who walked away from an engineering degree, not because he failed, but because he was self-aware enough to know it wasn't his life. Robert Libertore packed a bag with $4,500, backpacked through Peru, Hawaii, Japan, Indonesia, Singapore, London, and Italy, and came home a filmmaker. Not by accident, by decision. He has spent the years since building a creative career on his own terms, brand shots, fashion, travel, hospitality, and now documentary filmmaking that has taken him back to the exact places where this whole journey started. His story is not about finding the perfect path. It's about having the courage to leave a path that did not belong to you and building something that does. Here's what that looked like from the inside. Well, uh, good afternoon there, Robert. I uh appreciate you coming on. It's good to see you. Good to have you on the show on the Life Fest podcast, obviously host by myself. But uh, you know, be before we kind of get going, um, you know, before titles, cameras, travel, um, you know, how are you feeling today?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Good, man. I'm excited. I appreciate you having me on. It's it's it's fun to sit down and chat through some of this stuff. And yeah, I'm looking forward to it. But life's good right now. I mean, especially today. It's 69 and 70 in New York, which is it's new territory for us this year at least. So uh I'm excited, man. It's it's been good. Yeah, I've got some fun projects I've been working on and feeling very fortunate. But got good friends around me. Um got a good relationship with my wife, although she's out of town right now, living her best life and leading retreats in El Salvador, which is cool to watch from afar. So things are good, man. How about things with you?

SPEAKER_01 2:06

I love it, man. Sounds like life is good. Yeah, things are good. Uh of course, we're in Indiana, right? I know you said New York, it's 70 degrees here. So, like yourself, I'm enjoying the weather. Uh, I know it'll probably change by tomorrow, but I'm gonna I'm gonna soak it in today and enjoy it. But no, life is good, kids are good. Um, just building a lot of momentum, right? Obviously, we have a life as podcast, but just in general, life has been uh building. It's been compounding uh. Love it, man. Love to hear that. Appreciate you asking. Um, before we get going, kind of settle in, right? And um kind of make things uh smooth here. For all the listeners that are listening, can you kind of tell everyone, just kind of uh, like I said, get going, kind of tell where you're from, what you're currently doing, and what kind of led you or what has led you to this point uh currently?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Sure. So I grew up in North Carolina. I was born in upstate New York, Syracuse, like up upstate, as they say in the city, you know. But I grew up in North Carolina, um, lifelong athlete. So I ended up playing college soccer at a school in Philly called Drexel, studied engineering, kind of left that world behind, and decided to pursue a career in photography and videography, and you know, been freelancing on and off for the past nine, 10 years now at this point. I guess 2016, 2026, 2016. So yeah, about nine, 10 years. And, you know, I've worked in-house for a few brands as well, as like their director of content strategy or career directory and things of that nature. But yeah, just kind of been living life behind the lens for the better part of 10 years and seeing what adventures those those have led me to. And ultimately they kind of brought me to New York. Awesome, man. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yeah, I appreciate the uh the background for the listeners there, kind of set the stage here. And uh as we move forward, man, you know, when someone meets you to meets you today, right, they see filmmaker, and we'll give we're gonna uh get into this later, right? Filmmaker, creative, traveler, uh model, right? Good looking guy. And uh, but what do you what do you feel, or I guess yeah, uh, who do you feel like you're in who you are today in this in this season of your life?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

That's an interesting question. I mean, all of those things that you said are certainly part of my makeup, my DNA. You know, it's interesting here, traveler, and I feel like in many ways my travel has slowed down quite a bit from the backpacking days and the the wild adventures, but there's still plenty of those fun trips in the cards, especially you know, with as much location shooting as I do and some of the documentaries you get to work on. It's still a big component of my life, which is fun. I think it helps paint a uh a colorful life and you get to view view the world in a different lens, which is fun. But yeah, right now I think to answer your question, I feel like I'm in this period of growth. Um, it it's it's interesting, you know. It's like freelancing, especially, you sort of have these waves throughout your career. And right now it sort of feels like there's a lot being worked on behind the scenes and a lot that's kind of boiling up to fruition in the next couple months. So very excited about all that. Certainly nerve-wracking at times, which is I think, in my experience, some of the best, best uh aspects of life are the ones that sort of test your nerves a little bit and push you a little outside the comfort zone. So it's exciting to sort of see and be aware of the fact that, okay, there's these projects that are sort of potentially shaping my future for the next couple of years. And I think this is probably one of the first times in my career really where I'm sort of aware of like the the stage of growth that I'm in. Usually that's more of a behind this, not behind the scenes, but that's more of a looking back kind of 2020 vision type situation. You oh, you can see the growth happening, but this is probably the first time in my life I'm kind of consciously aware of the growth phase that I'm in while I'm in it. Obviously, I don't know how big of a growth phase it will or won't be, what it will or won't lead to, but it's really exciting for those reasons. And obviously, yeah, there's a couple of nerves around it. So trying to balance it all out and enjoy the ride. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

No, it sounds like it. That's uh, like I said, as you were you were speaking, that's what I was getting up, that's what I was picking up as well. It's like there's there's an awareness of seeing the the shift, right? You're seeing the the tides kind of turn slowly uh from what it sounds like behind the scenes, what's what what you're building, what you're wanting to take care of, and uh ultimately, you know, accomplish professionally um from what you're what you're accomplishing and striving for. So no, that sounds uh that sounds good. When when you kind of look at life now, I guess, what does a fulfilling life look like to you right now? Maybe not professionally, but just you know, personally for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Yeah, I mean, I think that's like the million-dollar question for everyone, right? Is like what at the end of the day is what's gonna like light them up. And I think that for me changes throughout the years, which I think is okay. But I think at the at the core of who I am, you know, especially being like a lifelong athlete, I love to compete, right? And part of that is like applying yourself to the fullest. And I think the older I get and the more I'm mature, the more I'm realizing that it's less and less about you know the competition and more about just placing myself in an environment that requires me to apply myself to the fullest. And I'm certainly someone that loves an experience that sort of empties the tank, if you will. You know, that can be a physical thing, that can be a mental thing. I was just in Palm Springs shooting this tennis and pickleball tournament for a supplement brand called IM8. And, you know, those long days, it was 18-hour days back to back to back, um, with some editing on top of all of that in between. And, you know, those those test you mentally, they test you physically, but those are the types of uh environments that I really enjoy the most, I think. So for me, a fulfilling life definitely looks like putting myself in environments, whether it's socially, professionally, personally, whatever it may be, where I am presented with opportunities that really allow myself to apply myself as as fully as I can. And that can be, obviously, like I said, behind a camera, behind the lens, you know, directing whatever shoot I'm on. That can be, you know, on a snowboarding trip or a climbing trip, just giving in my all and coming back and feeling like I'm fully spent. And that could just be socially just hanging out with someone or a group of friends or my wife in in an environment where we get to really fully immerse ourselves in the conversations we're in. So I think at the end of the day, um, it's just, you know, making sure that we're working towards things that really uh give us satisfaction, make us proud in terms of the types of work we're doing, and just allow us to, like I said, give us give it our all and give our full undivided attention and energy. Yeah, I love I love what you said um applied.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Uh because it sounds like that there's some competition with yourself. Like I'm gonna apply myself in this situation fully, and then you know, oh I don't know, maybe uh get some type of information or data points of like how far can I go? Like how how much can I push myself, but also um leaning into those activities that are gonna require the energy and the time and the focus to do that. So um that was awesome. And too, just knowing that the the poll can move. Like that was the first thing you said is that you know, I think it does change. I don't think, you know, when you say what's a fulfilling life, it has to be like a definite of like this is it. I think there is some fluidity in your um and what we can answer and what we're looking for and what what feels fulfilling for us. And that's encouraging, I think, for listeners, for myself as well, you know, knowing you that that hey, we can have a um, you know, kind of a binary answer, if you will, uh, or reasoning to to finding a fulfilling life.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

So yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think there's um I think this happens more so in like the outdoor world, like climbing and things like that. But there's also this concept of like earning your sleep, so to speak. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I think you can earn your sleep many different ways throughout the day, and like that can be a professional thing, that can be a social thing. But I think as long as I'm stacking as many of these as possible where I'm earning my sleep, it's a good life for me.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah, no, I love, I can tell when you said applied, it was like you like to get in it, right? Like I could see the body language change of like, okay, I'm gonna get in this and I'm gonna kill it. Yeah. So I love it, man. Um, I love we kind of rewind a little bit, right? Uh the clock a little, and uh because your story obviously isn't linear, um, which is awesome. I do love your story. I think a lot of people are gonna appreciate the journey you've gone through. Um, and that's what makes it powerful. So you you mentioned you went to Drexel, right? You did your engineering program um while also playing sports. I don't think you mentioned, but for those who are listening, uh you played soccer, um, which obviously any division at any level, I feel like in collegiate sports is demanding, right? No matter what you're doing while doing school and achieving you know goals. What originally drew you toward engineering while kind of balancing school in a you know demanding you know field of work?

SPEAKER_00 10:51

It's a good question. I think for me, it's like to be truthfully honest, there isn't like a huge draw to engineering per se, outside of the fact that um I'm someone that likes to be challenged, right? You know, in as you mentioned, like played soccer at a very high level growing up, always went to nationals and things like that. But I also like treated school and education as a bit of a game as well. And I like to win, right? So in some ways, I was very much like a nerd as well, and that's okay. I had really good grades coming out of high school, and so all the schools I was work looking at potentially playing at were also like good academic schools, and there was a wide gamut. There wasn't like a oh, I know I want to be an engineer, oh, I know I want to go into finance or whatever it was. But basically any school that I looked at, I was like, what's like the most difficult program they have? Right. Um, so you know, there was I almost went to Princeton and it was like looking at neuroscience and things like that. But ultimately, like Drexel was like the best fit for me from an athletic and financial standpoint, um, and also academic. And so Drexel has a really good engineering program, and they also have a really cool co-op program where you know you get to go to school for six months, but then actually work entry-level real-life work positions for six months and you kind of alternate on that. And um, as a result, like I said, you know, engineering seemed like the most difficult program there, and I was good at math and I liked it. And yeah, for me, that's it really just came down to the fact that like, okay, this could be a cool challenge. This could be a career path that sets you up on like a good trajectory. And so I wanted to give it my best and give it a give it a shot.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Yeah, that's funny, man. You're like, well, let me go to the hardest, hardest program you got. Let me go for it and see what see what I can do. That's uh that's interesting. Most people, you know, you they wouldn't, you know, choose the hardest program they got and try to go for it.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

But what's yeah, there's there's parts of me, I mean, I really wish I had like a something I was like passionately interested in coming out of high school that I could have just been like, oh, I know I want to do this. Like, I'm so envious of the kids, especially in like the filmmaking world of like, oh no, I've had a camera in my hand my whole life. I'm like, that's so cool. Like I did not have that, you know. But yeah, I you know, it was just like uh it was a fun challenge at the end of the day. And um, you know, I also liked physics and things like that. So I was like, oh, this could be really cool.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

It's a it's a good challenge. I think from that there's an emergent um I don't know, school skills, tools, things you learn from that, right? Like you're going off the hardest thing, you're challenging yourself, and because of that, I think there's a natural uh budding process that unravels of what other things you enjoy or other likes and dislikes. Uh so yeah, I agree. I think that's I think it's a great, great, obviously, choice. And speaking of physics, I've I've been kind of getting into it myself. Okay. I've been I've you know, I got it's funny, I got some new books I ordered kind of offline here, right? Some physics books. Um you know, I've I've gone from you know metaphor, kind of poetry, which is great, right? There's there's all these you know philosophies and different sciences of what we have, but physics is like constrained, right? Here's the constraints, here's the question. Are there data? What's the experiments? Is it falsifiable? So it kind of helps me, even on this podcast, keep me kind of honed in of like what's the reality, what do we have actual data from? Um, but I'm loving it, man. I'm loving the the new way of thinking. It's it's giving a new perspective when you look at physics.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

For sure. There's some fascinating elements to it, and like you know, at the end of the day, you're studying how the world works, which can never be a bad thing to understand more about. Um there are there are limitations within that, obviously, too. But yeah, like we funnily enough, on this shoot in Palm Springs, we were interviewing some of the professional tennis players, and one of them's like just like a 24-year-old kid that's just like obsessed with quantum physics, apparently. So he was just like nerding out on that, which is cool, you know. It's it's a fun world to look but to learn about, you know, at least glimpse it too.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Yeah, no, I don't want to uh I agree. I don't want to get off too much line because I can talk about this. Well, it's it's it's I eat it up. It's stuff I do out in my free time. But um, speaking of Drexel, right? So you obviously went there engineering, right? And um if you want to elaborate a little bit, it sounds like saying things shifted, right? At one point, maybe did you think engineering may not be your long time like calling once you kind of got into it?

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah, so as I mentioned, Drexel has this co-op program, which is, you know, I can't say enough good things about it. For most people, they come out of school with a full year and a half of like real life applied work experience, and they come out of school with a job, which is amazing. I was like one of like the 3% of Drexel students that didn't come out of school with a job because I knew, oh, I'm not gonna be an engineer, right? Um so I, yeah, basically you have those six month stints, and about two weeks into my second six month working cycle, I was like, oh boy, like this is this is not how I want to live the next 40, 50 years of my life. Yeah. Like I just sort of realized, like, oh, like even though I like the school, I like the education, I like the classes, I've got a 3.9 GPA, like I on paper, like this is for me. The real world was so different. And that's okay, you know, but I find it equally, if not more valuable, that I found out exactly what I didn't want to do. Correct. But it was uh, it was a little nerve-wracking, if I'm being completely honest, about like, yeah, knowing what you don't want to do is super important, but like it doesn't give you any answers about what you do want to do necessarily. So that was certainly a uh an interesting period of self-discovery, I guess is what you would say. But yeah, about two weeks into my second co-op cycle, I was like, I guess I'm not gonna be an engineer for the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah, yeah, that's pretty, yeah, pretty soon. And and speaking of obviously school, uh obviously you find out, hey, this is not what I want to do. Now you're left here, like, okay, now what? Right? It's not really no answer, it's just that I know I don't want to go that direction. You you you uh balance school, right? Athletics, co-ops. Um, how did that season, season, excuse me, shape your discipline and worth aspect that you still carry today?

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Yeah, I mean, I think as you know, like playing playing a sport while also trying to balance an education is like it's a full-time job, you know, 30 hours a week. So I think in many ways, that whole period, like especially being in engineering, um, it really just taught me how to kind of maximize my time and like really, you know, efficiently get jobs done when it has to be done in a certain time frame. You know, it's kind of funny, like sometimes the more time I had, or and this still holds up true, like the less efficient I am with things. When when crunch time rolls around, like I am the guy for the job. Uh like I am someone that can absolutely crank, you know, and just like get it done because I know what it's like to have to get it done in, you know, an hour and a half or whatever it may be. You know, and I think it also just taught me how to do the work when I didn't necessarily want to do the work, right? And I think that that's something that's not always easy to pick up. Um, and then at the end of the day, too, like an engineering degree, especially, like you do have to teach yourself or learn how to learn, right? And I think that that's a skill that is carried over with me for the rest of my life, you know, especially looking at photography, videography. In many ways, I'm self-taught. You know, I put an asterisk on that because no one's self-taught these days, like you're getting information from something, but self-guided, I guess you would say, right? And that you know, that that comes from the ability to learn how to study this complex type of material on your own. Right. Because your professors only take you so far in a program like that. So yeah, you know, it's it's like it's really just like that. I'm so grateful for that period of my life where you know I was balancing, you know, three or four different things at a time and being forced to learn how to juggle those in a way where you're still productive in all of those arenas and you're able to grind through the the difficult parts so you can enjoy the really, really special highs. Like that's the best.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Yeah. No, no kidding, man. Um I always joke and tell people, man, college football, you know, for those who listen, I played football in college and um at Bowling Green, and that was there's no off-season. Like off-season was probably worse than in the off-season's off-season's awful.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Yeah, off season's worse.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

And the trainers just make up stuff. So it's like you're, you know, you really have to balance, yeah, like I said, school workouts, making sure on time. And and you're right, man, those low moments teach you to appreciate the good moments when you are in that low, right, low period of the season or just in the school year is uh it's it's helpful. So it's definitely transcends and helps you, you know, as a as a young adult. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

I mean, I think it also teaches you how to enjoy the low moments, which I think is like a very beneficial part of life as well, you know, because life isn't all high moments as much as we'd love that, right? No. Um but yeah, funnily enough, you know, with the weather out right now, and I think I've told you I'm training for this like wild endurance project called the Speed Project. It's just like a long, a long, long, long run from Los Angeles to Las Vegas with some people, but um trying to get back into shape. And I dug deep into the like the college soccer archives today and did my 1030 sprint workouts in the end. It's just like doing those, you know, it's like okay, I know I know that that's always there, right? And I know I can always dig deep enough to get back to where we need to be. Yeah, at the end of the day. That whole process is like it's so valuable, you get to take it with you the whole the whole time, you know, whole life. So you're you're you're jumping back in crazy stuff. I know. There was some PTSD in those.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

LA to maybe a city down south of LA, but you said Las Vegas. That's yeah, that's a run.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Yeah, yeah. We'll see how it goes. We'll we'll have some follow-up on the keep us posted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

So you were you were at Drexel. I know as as you're like, hey, I don't know what uh what I want to do, or at least this is what I don't want to do, right? You you started to dabble a little bit into photography and exploring some modeling. What was happening like in that time period, maybe internally, that made creativity start pulling at you, or what maybe pulled that toward your uh atmosphere?

SPEAKER_00 21:13

I think it's a great question. I I think um it's it's interesting, like like so. I was on an accelerated master's program with Drexel as well. And so when I realized, oh, I'm not gonna be an engineer, like my first thought was like, well, I'm definitely not gonna like kill myself in the classroom and take all these extra classes, right? So I dropped the master's program pretty much immediately. And um yeah, obviously that also happened to coincide with the fact that Drexel is like a four year school that takes five years because you have this extra year and a half of work experience. Right. And as someone who didn't red shirt playing soccer, like I played my first four years, like I had a a full year, year and a half of like normal students. Student life, which was uh quite the experience, you know, and most athletes don't get to experience that. And I'm very fortunate I did, but I was also pretty bored during that time frame. Yeah, you drop like busy. Yeah, you drop like 30 hours a week from the sport, you drop all the extra classwork. I was basically done with my curriculum that final year. So I was just trying to like figure out what to do and also understand like, okay, well, like if I don't want to be an engineer, I should start experimenting with some of the things that maybe I think could work instead. And I think that like from that boredom, like, you know, I was willing to take on like random classes, like even if I knew they weren't really going to be my career per se, like maybe they'll lead to something. So I was taking like a couple of random dance classes as electives just because I thought it'd be fun or I might be able to learn something or whatever it was. And then through that, I actually got connected with someone who's in the fashion design program and they had like a senior design project where they needed models. So I got pulled into that and from there ended up in some photo shoots or ended up in a runway at the end of the year and was enjoying it and having fun. And, you know, I think there was part of me that felt like, oh, this is, you know, just that. It's just fun. But I think there was also part of me that was starting to see other people that were making like divergent choices. And, you know, I had a buddy in an engineering program who is also who's now a really talented, established commercial and editorial photographer named Tayo Cuckoo. Look him up, beautiful work. But he uh, you know, was kind of going through some of the same questions. Um, and he started portrait photography at the time. So, you know, I shot with him a little bit. And the more and more I was just willing to be curious and try things without necessarily being attached to like what the outcome was or wouldn't be. I had started realizing like how much I was enjoying this sort of creative side of myself that I didn't really know existed beforehand, you know, and I think very fortunately like coincided with a period of technology where tech had finally caught up to creativity and was sort of producing tools at a mass scale where you can pick up a camera that wasn't too too expensive and you could learn it on YouTube. Yep. And then you could go apply it, you know, in certain ways and then use a platform like Instagram to sort of test things out. And at that point it became very formulaic. And I never really viewed creativity as formulaic thing. I sort of grew at this like awe-inspiring, like these people are different, right? Right. So I think I think kind of that perfect storm and that curiosity and willingness to just try things really helped me out and ultimately kind of shaped the foundation of where we are today.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Yeah, yeah. Definitely sounds like the curiosity was was was huge, right? Just you know, learning, being open to something new and and and not, like I said, having uh an expectational outcome, which was yeah, you have some you can have some fun. There's there's some some leeway in there. You know, I'm joking in my head too. I'm I'm sure when you got to dance class that your footwork was pretty good, being in soccer, I'm sure that was uh uh I would say probably easier transition than most.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

I mean, I can't speak for anybody else, but there were some some good moments and there were some rough moments, you know, but that was all part of the process. But I think ultimately it kind of circles back to what I was saying earlier, too, where like I'm someone that gets the most out of situations where I'm fully applying myself. And I think that putting myself in some of those rather different fields, right? And rather different situations, like if I wanted to keep up, you know, like I did have to apply myself a bit and it was in a different way. And then so I think that's also part of the reason like that creative side was a you know rewarding in some ways because it really did take my full attention. So I think that did help continue to encourage me to do more of it because I was getting I was getting the satisfaction of like trying hard out of it. Yeah, and you and you learn too.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Like I said, I think there's a I was talking to someone the other day. Um there's a valuable lesson in in in I wouldn't say failing, but doing things to your point of creativity or um I don't know, I my mind goes right to like getting data points, like getting intel of like, oh, this is what worked, this is what didn't work. Because I think so many of us want to know and be in the right and have the right knowledge and not look dumb, but like it should we should flip it on his head and like the stuff I don't know. That that gives me the guardrails of like, oh, okay, this is what didn't work, let me keep going. Right? Let me let me keep this kind of Thomas Edison idea of like I didn't fail, I just kept on learning a thousand different ways. So I think there's some there's some validity in in that as well. Um, but leading also to my next question as you were speaking, you know, what fears or maybe doubts that you could have had or or even showed up when you first allow yourself to, you know, imagine a different path as you're kind of like, I think, uh sprouting this new maybe field or adventure away from, like you said, the engineering and obviously post soccer.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

There were there were quite a few doubts and fears, you know. I joke around and say I had all of them, but you know, like I said before, I had one really solid concrete answer, which was really valuable. But yeah, you know, knowing what you don't want to do is very different than knowing what you want to do. And I really hadn't considered other alternatives besides engineering, you know, once I committed to that path because I sort of thought we'd figured it out. So once that paradigm got completely flipped upside down, it was a very like, I don't know, like interesting time in terms of like just figuring it out and kind of looking at some of those doubts and even wondering if I was gonna be able to figure out what I wanted to do, you know, or if I was just gonna end up taking a job I hated still, but deep down knowing that I hated it, right? Like that was terrifying as well. But I think ultimately, like, it came down to you know, just being willing to again put myself in a situation where I wasn't necessarily comfortable with it or I didn't necessarily expect that that was where we were gonna go. But like um, I worked a bunch of random odd jobs and you know, did some landscaping, worked behind the bar, did some consulting, things like that. And again, not necessarily being attached to what the final outcome will or won't be, but knowing that this is something we're gonna try right here, right now, and it's gonna serve a purpose, whether that purpose goes beyond today or tomorrow or the next five weeks doesn't matter. And I think that ultimately, like that, you know, like really helped out. And then I during that kind of period of doubt, I also went and traveled, right? And that's where that kind of like that phase of travel really comes into play, where my now wife and I, but at the time girlfriend ended up backpacking around the world for four and a half months with no set itinerary. And there were a couple of things we had scheduled, but you know, that was really like a huge period of self-discovery and kind of like allowing answers to come to me, even though I didn't really see how they were gonna come. And um yeah, I think just you know, like bit by bit started to realize, okay, more and more is possible, like and believe you know, yeah, I am gonna figure this out, or okay, I'm you know, if I'm trying something and I don't like it, it's at least checking something off the list that gets me closer and closer to like finding out what the the final answer is. And I think that that was hard to see at first, but kind of the more I did it, the more I started to realize what the process was looking like.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Yeah, it's always hard in the moment. I think um, from what it sounds like, you always kind of kept the possibility there, like a mindset of what's possible or keeping this positive perspective, uh, if I'm assuming, is like, hey, there's there's there's there is something out there, there's something I can find. Um, whether that's you know, you still haven't gonna have fears like what am I gonna do? Am I gonna fail? Am I gonna make it? What do I wanna, you know, at a young age too, it feels heavy. I think most kids that age, even young adults, we're all told to go to college and then get a job. And it's like, okay, if I don't have that plan, like you said, then it's like, well, oh shit, I don't know what to do. You know, I'm kind of lost. I'm like, now I gotta scramble, but it sounds like it was you always kept possibility in front of you.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Um yeah, I think that's one way to look at it. I think you know, it was also interesting too, because like I did it, right? Like I did the formula, the formula you just described, right? Go to school, get it, get good grades, get a good job. Like, I had a 399 GPA at one point. You know, like I was doing this stuff and I was like, wait a minute, I don't want the final answer here. Like, so what do I do? Yeah. Yeah, I think part of it was like believing that there was a possibility. I think part of it was also just sort of knowing, and I think this might come back to what we talked about earlier with like you know, college soccer and engineering and that sort of like intense phase told me to like figure out how to work through the like the difficult parts and like enjoy the lows. Like at the end of the day, I sort of made sure that I was still like taking action and moving through the fear, right? Like knowing that fear is there is fine, but like we have to ultimately still move through that and be able to take action while that is there, because otherwise, like you get sort of this analysis paralysis and like freeze up mode. And I think that was really the big thing, was just like, okay, like we're gonna take a step, even if we don't believe today that there's like a rainbow at the end, right? Or pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, like we're gonna take one step today. And I think that some days that was easier to do than others, but uh luckily we took enough steps and and found something that worked.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

You actually, I think you probably already answered my next question. Um I was gonna ask you, you know, what what advice you know would you give someone who's successful on paper, like you said. You had a 3.9 GPA, you were doing the things, or like you were doing it all. But someone who feels or who is successful on paper, but may feel, you know, quietly feel misaligned. Um, but it sounds like if if I maybe answer for you, it sounds like um, like you said, make take a step each day.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Yeah, I mean, I think um that's certainly part of it, you know, is like like you said, you know, one step at a time, like that's a huge aspect of it. But um I think like I would say that like the true judge of success like comes from within, right? Like ultimately it doesn't matter if someone to use me as an example, right? If someone sees my GPA and sees like what I'm doing with soccer in college or whatever it may be, like, and that might look successful, but at the end of the day, if I know this is not what I want to do, then none of that really matters, at least in my eyes, right? So I think that understanding that we get to control what success does and doesn't look like to us is super important. I think nowadays there's like a really big, and I think some of this has calmed down a bit, but you know, in the past decade especially, there's like this notion that we have to like chase our passions, and like that's like how we kind of fuel our work and everything. And I think it's very important to be passionate about work, but I think you know, I I don't love the idea to like only chase your passions because as I mentioned, like you're what you're interested in can change on a daily basis. Um so to kind of try to build a career around what you're passionate about may or may not be a good idea for people. For some it will, for some it won't. I think the bigger thing again kind of boils down to that concept of application, right? And self-application of like finding the type of work where you feel comfortable and excited to apply yourself every day. Like to me, that's like the definition of success. Because at the you know, at the end of the day, like if we're just working just to work, like it's brutal. And that's not that's not a way to live. That's not life, you know? Um and like we only have a finite amount of time on this planet, and I think like the environment really shapes and allows you to like test yourself in a way that's fulfilling. So if you can find the type of work where, you know, as I mentioned in Pull and Springs, like we had 18-hour days, we were editing at night, and then we were waking up and doing it all over again, and like that was a blast though, because like those are the that was an arena that was like an environment where it was so fun to like just give it our all, right? And for some people, it's it's about giving it your all. It's not necessarily um that for everyone, right? So I think whatever applying yourself means, I think if you can find the type of work where you get to do that and you get to like really lean into it, then I think the success is there and the success comes, and that's like a much easier way to measure it than just like an arbitrary, oh well, I'm doing what I love. Well, because I think you can develop passion around any type of work, but um what you don't want you to do is you don't want your work in any aspect of your life to kind of dwindle and like uh put the you don't want it to dwindle the passion that you have for any aspect of your life, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

No, it does. Man, I love that answer. That's so true. I I I'd be inclined to agree to what you're saying. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

I also think I will say one other thing too. Like, I think success goes on goes beyond just like the arena of work, right? There's so many different like aspects of life, and I think you know, for some people, like you can find more or less success in your work than you can in like the things you do outside of work. And um, yeah, you know, yeah. I think if you can find the balance, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

To your point, I think it's you you said something like giving down. I think people are more more people are realizing that, you know. I don't know if it's a a turn in I don't know, uh collective uh consciousness or something, but yeah, I feel like people are realizing like to your point, exactly what you said is that people are finding success, happiness, and other things just in work. Your passion can can change. Um beliefs change, right? Perspectives change. So no, I um I totally agree with with what you're saying um about that. Um as we move forward, because you you spoke about you know backpacking too. So obviously you graduate from Drexel, um and then you obviously take a step I would say that most people would be afraid of, right? Which we're gonna get into you talk about backpacking, and I I believe we we spoke offline, you said you took roughly $4,500, which is uncertain nowadays. Um the world for five months, which is wild. I just seen a video, uh, I don't know, I think of a family that traveled around for like 12 months and it was like $30 something,000 a year of money, which is wild, right? And some of these countries are like, you know, um beneficial from a from a monetary standpoint. But in any case, obviously that takes courage and trust, right? When you're doing that at a young age. What made you say yes, right, to that leap after college and not kind of go down down the traditional path?

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Well, I mean, I think um I think it was like it was less about saying like yes to that and more about saying no to everything else that was in front of me. So I like I it was kind of this perfect combination of okay, I have absolutely no answers back home about what I want to do. Yeah, I have job operab offers in front of me that are like hard no's for me right now. And so it's like, well, what else is there? Right. And I was seeing all of these like incredible photographers on Instagram and Twitter at the time that were sort of getting some of the answers that I wanted out of life and the types of projects and adventures and things that I thought would be super cool to like be incorporated into my work. Um it seemed like they were all traveling, and you know, I I'd had uh other experiences where I got to travel a little bit, and my girlfriend at the time, you know, I'd been backpacking and things like that, and it just seemed like more answers were potentially on the other side of traveling than not. And I just sort of thought, okay, like let's do that. And like I said, my my girlfriend at the time was was up for a big adventure like that. So that certainly helped in terms of instilling confidence. But yeah, it was like you said, it was still nerve-wracking. There was still some fear and doubt on that side of it. Like this went on during the trip, but also before it was what if I take this big trip and I get home and then there's just no answers, right? Like that was a very real conversation I had with myself multiple times. And and not that the trip was only about finding answers, but it was also like very clearly about that in some respect. And there was part of an element of that, like, you know, I do want to try to see if I can build a portfolio while I'm traveling, or I do want to see if I can get better at photography and videography, and this will give me an excuse to shoot every day or whatever it may be. Um so yeah, and you know, that there was the element of that. Um, and then also, you know, like I said, my my girlfriend at the time, now wife had done a five-week backpacking trip while she was in college, which I had never seen anyone do my age. Like that was something at the time, this is 2016, 2017 is when we started the trip in 2017. So, like at the time, I had never really met anyone from my walk of life that just like up and left, right? And so it was a little scary, but like seeing, you know, a couple people do that that I knew, and then seeing more people online that were kind of making that work, I just sort of believed, okay, like at the very least, this seems like an amazing experience that I'll really benefit from. And you know, it seems like if worst case comes in, comes to it, like there's there's an ability for me to go get like a technical sales job. So like I can always fall back on that if I have to. So yeah, it's just like let's see if we can make it work with not a lot of money, like you said.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Yeah, it's crazy. 4,500, that's yeah, that's wild. Obviously, it's not 20.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

I think I think I ended up spending less than that. I don't know the exact number, but it was yeah, it was it's pretty wild.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Well, you you obviously visited and I'll let you share obviously where you went, but it sounds like you know, from what we talked, Peru, like Hawaii, Japan, Indonesia, Singapore, um, London, even Italy, right? So it's a lot of places you went. Um, how did that travel like reshape how you saw life and possibility as you were kind of going that self-journey?

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Yeah, I mean, I think it reshaped everything for me. You know, uh like I was able to firsthand experience so many different ways of living life and witness so many different more uh uh opportunities and abilities to like set up your life in a way that's you know different than the one that's that I knew growing up. And um, for me, that was really informative and it also really helped me understand what I prioritize the most in life, right? When you're backpacking, when you're on a very limited budget from a travel perspective, like you have to make decisions about what you're prioritizing. And you also start to understand and realize like what you're missing, right? Like what elements of life back home do I wish we could have here, right? And those types of like experiences, whether you're aware of them in the time or whether you've kind of realized them later on, they really helped kind of shape everything for life. And um I'm super grateful for that. And yeah, really, really, really valuable perspective that I wouldn't have been able to gain without doing something like that. I think the other really nice thing for me was, you know, I had the camera with me, I had a drone, and I was starting to build this portfolio, but I was also able to get a couple very, very small gigs while we were abroad. And so that also, from a perspective standpoint and possibility standpoint, helped me realize what was available to me if I did apply myself in this arena, right? And those very small projects were really fun and I and I enjoyed them a lot. And so that really did start getting me thinking about like what my life could look like if I pursued this wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Yeah, yeah, no, it's amazing. I think uh yeah, traveling in general just man, it opens you up to so much. Um, I love that you said that you know what you miss. You know, when you said that, I'm like, man, I don't think many people realize like when you're in these different countries, right? All different uh classes, if you will, of folks, you yeah, you take for granted what you what you're missing at home in the in the states. So yeah, that was really powerful um that you said that. And you you kind of briefly kind of salted this in there, but obviously you use the trip for photography and uh videography, right? You're kind of dabbling into it. When did it shift from like kind of hob hobby to potential career?

SPEAKER_00 42:27

So the first time like that really became part of the conversation was when Shelby and I were in London and we were kind of finishing up the trip, but we weren't necessarily aware that we were finishing the trip. It was kind of an interesting spot to be in. Yeah, that's because like we basically our flight home for the end of the trip, we booked less than 48 hours for the flight. Like it was just like a point over like where we sort of looked at each other. Shelby was sick, right? And I was just like, oh, it's time to go home, isn't it? She's like, Yeah, I was like, cool, got him. Um which like the money was running out too. So like we knew that clock was ticking, but anyways, um I had applied to be like an ambassador or something like that, um for a different uh brand called Mati. And and they wanted me to fill out this like profile for their website, right? Pretty standard, but it you know, part of it was like profession, like what do you do? And I I mean, I must have spent like three days going back and forth about like, am I can I put this? Like, am I able to put adventure photographer and videographer? Like, is that am I lying? Like this whole like imposter syndrome thing going on. Am I good enough to do that? Like, are like what of it? And like eventually it was like, dude, fuck actually, can I cuss or not? I don't know. You're good, you can cuss. Yeah, we won't either way, we won't. Eventually it was like, dude, just put it down, commit, and like bite the bullet, like you're gonna do this. And if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But there's no sense in like stopping yourself before you give this a chance. So that was like Like a couple weeks before we came home, I put this in there. And then, like I said, we very quickly afterwards, we we realized, oh, like we are going home. So once I got home, I now had this portfolio of like really really solid like travel lifestyle content because Shelby and I were shooting each other the whole time. And we had a couple brands that we shot some things for, a couple events, you know, some drone things mixed in there. And so when I got back to North Carolina, like some of that stuff stood out in a very good way. Right. And so all of a sudden, now I was like, okay, well, like now let's put this to the test. Now let's see if we can really make this work. And I was, you know, I was doing things like knocking on doors of businesses, seeing if they needed someone to shoot, or like, hey, I've got this shoot lined up, I can shoot in your gym. Like before I even had the shoot lined up type stuff, you know? Yeah, you were hustling. Uh yeah. And, you know, what I didn't get like life-changing money out of that. I didn't get like five clients coming to me and me like, absolutely, yes, let's do it. But I got like one at a time. And I got like one small gig here and there. And it was just enough to show me that like there is something here, and you know you're someone that can apply yourself and you know you're someone that will do the work. So if you're willing to kind of just rough it for a bit, like you can figure this thing out. And so for me, it was just kind of that combination of just getting just enough of a carrot from one person or one client or one brand when I got back to realize, okay, like we at least have to go see if we can get the next one. And we have to go see if we can get the next one. And they just slowly got bigger and bigger, and it got to the point where um, yeah, it was like uh it was just enough, right? And so, like that period of time was was really special for me. But yeah, you know, the the doubts were still there, but they were starting to get clearer and clearer on like what was possible. Um, so yeah, it started during the trip and then you know, quickly after getting home, sort of realized like, okay, we're gonna at least commit to this for four or five months.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Yeah. And did that traveling, right? So like you're traveling to different countries, right? You and Shelby, you're you're probably having a a great experience, right? Um, did that help shape how you communicate visually and tell stories while you were at that moment or even now? I guess as you look kind of going forward, did it have some influence or impact on you?

SPEAKER_02 46:21

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

I mean, I think um in terms of like it's shaping like creativity, like creatively, like travel was almost like an excuse for me to shoot every day, right? Whether you actually need that or not is a whole different conversation. But at the time, you know, that is a mental barrier of some capacity, and probably something that you can remind yourself of today as well. But, anyways, in that process of shooting so frequently because everything was new and everything was exciting and everything just felt different, it did start teaching me, again, whether I was aware of it or not at the time, but it teaching me that, like, okay, I can like look for creative inspiration any day in everything in life, right? And like, yes, this particular scene is different than what I'm used to, but there's a version of this back home as well, too. And so, yeah, it really did inform me from like a creative perspective of like, okay, keep going, keep doing it. Like, you have the ability to find these moments. And I think once you kind of realize, as like a any sort of creative professional, but like a photographer or videographer especially, that you're able to start seeing some of those moments and those like opportunities, if you will, you know, you you start to look at it everything a little bit differently. And and then on top of that, too, like you said, like you know, you are traveling, you're seeing all these different walks of life, you're seeing and meeting some amazing human beings. And so all of those perspectives sort of inform how you view life and how you choose to conduct yourself and carry yourself through it. So yeah, it was really, really helpful in terms of just shaping a few different aspects of my life in that way.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Yeah, absolutely, man. I I totally agree. And um, I know we're gonna get kind of on the back until your full circle moment, but at that point in time, do you think stepping outside your environment, um, or I would even say, do you think it's necessary to step outside your environment to discover who you really are? Or is that just kind of so happened for you, maybe specifically just kind of a part of the process?

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Um, I think it's like I think if you really want to fully understand every aspect of who you are, I think it's necessary in some capacity. I think that that can look like different things to different people. So for me, traveling was like an easy option. I think for a lot of people, traveling can be very informative. And I, you know, there's that super cliche phrase, it's like travel is the one thing you spend money on that you, you know, yeah, right. That you get a return investment or whatever it is, right? But I think there's a lot of truth in that because ultimately what it does is it puts you into it it takes you out of your comfort zone, right? Yeah. Immediately, wholeheartedly. Like you can't it's very difficult to stay in your comfort zone 100% while you're traveling. But that doesn't mean that travel is the only option for that. And so I think like, you know, you can do things like that are just completely foreign to your day, where it looks like you know, practicing stand-up comedy or like trying to learn a new language, or like even just spending more time alone with our thoughts. Like, I think that those are all different types of situations that can be uncomfortable for us. And I think the more that we are willing to kind of go into those moments and like kind of seek out that discomfort, the more we get comfortable being in those environments, and then the more we like have the space and awareness to like start reflecting on who we are. And yeah, so I think if you are someone that's trying to fully understand like every aspect of yourself, like that's what it takes. And I think travel is like a really, really great way to start and a really perfect uh option to to kick it all off. But it doesn't necessarily mean you have to do it that way.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Yeah, yeah, beautiful answer, man. Once again, I I I heard the word right, apply. Apply yourself.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

Yeah, it's a it's a consistent theme for sure. Yeah, but yeah, I you'll definitely learn some things about yourself when you're staying in a five-dollar hostel in the middle of like Tunisia. Like you will, you will see some stuff that tests you.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

And just too, like, even like to your point, we're so used to the you know, these states, it's like when you get a different country, man, you're a minority. Like you don't know their language, so you really have to like consistently go out to bat to like try to communicate or learn different things or whatever the case may be, but yeah, you really gotta uh step out and uh be okay with it.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

Yeah, and and in that vein, too, you know, it's like depending on what country you're in and who you are and what your background is, like you might be someone that is a minority in that country, you might be someone that doesn't speak the language, you might be someone that speaks the language and you can actually connect with someone and they're not used to that. And like that's a whole that's an incredible experience too. Like when we were in Peru for a month, you know, I had a pickup soccer group that was like based in the small town we were in. We were boys, like they would come banging on our door because I spoke just enough Spanish to like really be able to like communicate. And then I was also like yeah, just the gringo with long hair that could actually play. They would come banging on our door and be like, Roberto, roberto, and like we would go play games for money, like it was a blast. But like those types of experiences, you know, they just get magnified, right? When you're in a different environment. And so whatever it is, like it's just super special. And um, yeah, I can't recommend them enough.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Man, I love it. That's a that's another story, man, for another day. That's that's awesome. Yeah, yeah. They're loving you. Yeah, it was good. I was loving them too, though. It was fun. You ever notice how sometimes you know exactly what you want to do, where you want to go, but something inside keeps pulling you back? It's not strategy, it's not effort, it's not even fear. It's the patterns running underneath everything. The beliefs you didn't choose, the loops you inherited, the internal static between who you are and who you're becoming. I created something for that. It's called the coherence diagnostic, a free assessment designed to show you exactly where those patterns are and what's possible when you shift them. Whether you're an athlete chasing flow or an entrepreneur building from vision, this diagnostic reveals a subconscious filter shaping your decisions, your confidence, your next move. It's free, it's deep, and it's in the show notes. Take it, see your patterns, and let's talk about what comes next. Because life is art in motion, and you deserve to create from coherence, not chaos. Before we get back in, if you are a brand, a creator, or an entrepreneur who needs high quality photo and video content, I want to introduce you to Robert Libertore. He's a filmmaker and creative director, has been building visual stories for over a decade, and he is someone I trust personally. Check him out through the link in the show notes and use code Lipe is pod 10 to get 10% off your first project. That's good, that's good uh good experiences. So obviously you come home, right? You got all these skills, you got momentum, you got perspective, but now it sounds like you know, you you kind of put it to the real test, like how do I turn this passion into like you know, reality or kind of survival, right? Uh and and it sounds like you know, you slowly kind of built some freelance work as you came back home and you know, you were making, you know, anywhere from two to 2500, 2,2500 per month at first. Um, what were those kind of early days like emotionally, financially, you know, as you come back and you're starting to kind of build this portfolio as you kind of alluded to?

SPEAKER_00 53:45

Well, like you said, I wasn't making a whole lot of money. And at first, you know, it was more like 400 to 500 bucks a month, right? And like, you know, that was maybe month one or two, and then month three, you get to like 1200, and then month four, you get to two thousand, right? And the goal ultimately for me when I came home was if I can get to four thousand dollars a month, like I am doing it, like I'm crushing it. I'm making enough money to cover my overhead and my expenses with enough left over for taxes, and like at that point, I'll be like a true professional photographer, right? And you know, it's it's funny looking back on that now, but I think it's also really valuable in terms of like reminding myself about like setting those incremental goals or like having those little incremental milestones can be such a huge benefit to yourself, where it's like you don't have to be at the end road when you start, right? And we don't have to like have like the final vision immediately available to us. But if you can kind of pick it off and and do little bits and pieces in terms of like allowing yourself to just continue to believe, like that's huge, you know, because there obviously during that period there's times where like you're like financially looking at it, like, does this like is this smart? Does this make sense? Like, am I being stupid for not taking the easy job that's just sitting there, like sending me an offer, sending follow-up information like every week? And you know, I think at that at that point, it's like it's they're all valid concerns, they're all valid fears and doubts, right? Like our brains are wired to protect us and help us survive. For sure. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's like if you can sit there and consider the worst case scenario and really like exaggerate it, and it isn't terrible and it isn't that bad. Like for me, that gives me the comfort and the space to kind of reframe all those fears and doubts and say, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep pushing anyways, because right now I know it's isn't my this isn't as bad as it could be, right? And it's not gonna get anywhere close to that. So let's just keep going. And I think that that was always the biggest tool in my toolbox to try to figure out how we can kind of overcome some of those fears and doubts, because they'd they were absolutely there, you know, and I I think rightfully so. Um, but I think if you can find the ways to uh identify them, recognize that they are what they are, like their fears and doubts, they're not reality, then you can kind of have the space and the the self-belief to keep going. And that was that was everything it took for me.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

Yeah, that's uh that's a really good lesson, you know, lesson, I think, for those who are listening to to your points, like put yourself in that position of what is the worst of worst and what does that look like and kind of play that out. And if it's not, you know, catastrophic, right, where it's gonna disabilitate you, then you know, like you said, keep going, you know, keep finding ways to you know be creative and see the good. So I like that um you know, that kind of input that you had there. Were were there moments, and I'm sure there was, but were there moments where like you said, the job offers are coming in, was it tempted for you to like you know walk away from freelancing to say, like, well, you know, I should probably just pack this thing up and let me get a job.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah, I mean, so just to add a little more context, I I had received some job offers like coming out of college, but then I turned those down. But then like just to kind of continue to go through the motions while we're like planning for this trip, like I had a job interview the day before we left, and I absolutely crushed it. And they offered me the job on the spot. And I was like, here's the thing. I've got this trip coming up, it's gonna be at least three months, but like I'll let you guys know when it's done. And they were like, Cool, no problem. Like, jobs waiting for you when you get back. I was like, okay, cool. So the whole time we're there, like that's also looming over me. I'm like, Am I figuring this out or should we just go back and do this? Right. And like, right. And so that obviously still was there when I got home. And I tried to be discreet and sort of tell them as much as they needed to know. But, you know, at a certain point, you've got to decide if that's something that's worthwhile or not. So I was kind of thinking about that every day. Yeah. And so that was, you know, there was definitely times and moments where I was like tempted to, you know, just say, hey, you know what? Like, I don't have to figure out photography and videography right now. Like I could take that job and then work on this on the side. Or I could, you know what, like this could be an amazing career. Like, let's just go all in on that. And I think all of those like possibilities and scenarios were viable and worth thinking about. But I think at the end of the day, the more I considered them, the more, the more I just like understood and realized, like, for me at that given moment, like I needed to commit to this and what I was doing, and tried to set it up in a way where I was doing it as, you know, responsibly or as uh measured as I could. Correct. You know, but there were also moments too where like, you know, you lost, and this wasn't necessarily like week one or month two or anything like that, but still early on in the process for me where you know you had miscommunications with clients that eventually led to me sort of eating certain costs or me losing a repeat client because I realized like, oh, this isn't gonna help me down the road and everything like that. And yeah, at those times, like you know, when you're hustling and you have uh an upsell of $600 onto a $1,000 project, like that's a lot of money. And you know, if like if you didn't fully communicate it to a client and you kind of realize, okay, well, I've got to keep good faith, so I've got to be the one that just does this portion for free, like that's a big hit. And you're like, well, how many times can I do that? Right. So things like that, I think, were also testing and kind of tempting and kind of let more and more doubt creep back in. But um, yeah, I mean, they were all part of the process, and I think there's there's a really fun element of that that I still miss some days. And not to say that none of that stuff happens, but it's just sort of a different scale these days.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

Yeah. But when did you, you know, fully kind of gain the confidence to go like full time? Because it sounds like I think correct me wrong, I think you went full time in 2018, but what gave you maybe the confidence to go to fully commit? Was there kind of maybe um you know process that led after that?

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Yeah, so we just to kind of give context, that big like four or five month trip around the world happened at the end of 2017 and went into 2018. So when we got back was early 2018, and that's when I started kind of tinkering around with this and seeing if we could make it work. And I think by about five, six months into that, so probably like mid-2018, yeah, was was when I realized like, okay, like we're doing this. Like, and I think the biggest reason for me to be able to like fully commit to 20, like to photography and videography in 2018 was just like there just weren't other options that were lighting me up the same way this was. And I I knew how miserable I was when I was in like a traditional nine to five engineering role, and the other opportunities that were in front of me that were kind of more in that traditional realm, they just felt so similar to this. And like it just for me, it was one of those things where I think anything could have been in front of me that was a little bit alternative, and I just we have committed wholeheartedly, but it just sort of happened to be photography and videography, and that was the thing that was really giving me the most energy, the most passion. And um, you know, it like anytime I was shooting, anytime I was editing, anytime I was learning a new technique, I was just like so fired up about it that it just sort of felt obvious to me that like if the two options are left and right, and left is like dark, abysmal, and miserable, and right is like super energetic, and maybe there's some unknown doubts and things like that, but at the end of the day, like this is where it is. Like, yeah, I'll at least give that one a wholehearted shot and see if we can make it work. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:44

Awesome. If you were uh you were definitely uh locked in to making that happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

So obviously, as you're growing that business, rather freelancing, it it sounds like, and you can give once again context to it, but it sounds like you're developing some pretty strong relationships early on through that work, um, just that natural process. What do you think um, or what do you think clients actually hire creatives for um beyond just technical talent um when they're looking for jobs?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

Yeah, I mean, so for me, yeah, I kind of say this all the time, like with anyone that's um coming to me for advice in the photography role, or like, you know, if I have a second on set that's like learning or anything like that, but it's like talent will certainly get you in the door. Yep, but like who you are and how you conduct yourself is why a client will call you back like every day of the week, you know. And I'm someone that I I like to take the approach of like it's much easier for me to manage four quarters than a hundred pennies. So I'd rather have three or four clients that I'm like really like all in on, you know, like kind of giving it my all, than trying to get the next client, the next client, the next client, the next client. And I think a big reason why I'm able to do that and why I fortunately have built a business that is like a hundred percent word of mouth at this point is because when I get to set, like there's no job that's below me or above me. Like there's no there's no person on set that like I don't have the time of day for. And I think, you know, if you can obviously there's a certain threshold for like you've got to have enough of the skill that's required to like to do the job, right? But if once you once you're there, if you can do the job and you can do it in a way that makes everyone enjoy themselves and enjoy being around you and feel like we had a great day and um feel like they love what they're working on, like you'll get you'll get a callback. And and that's that's what I think sometimes unfortunately gets lost, especially in this world. Um, but especially in like the creative world, there there can be some egos involved. And I think if you can kind of check those and leave them at the door and just like commit to having a good time and working hard, like that's the it'll come back around.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

Yeah, man, great answer. Great answer. You actually kind of touched on another question I for I wanted to go back and ask. But speaking of creative work, right? How how do you, I guess in your own words, what would you say, you know, how important is humility in creative work?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:16

I think for creative work, humility is incredibly important. I mean, I would I would say that's probably true of a lot of work, right? But creative work, especially, like if you if you can commit to, you know, like we said, applying yourself wholeheartedly and then also being like brutally honest with yourself during that process, there's nothing you can't figure out from a creative perspective, you know. I think a lot of my success has come from like being bad at the things that I wanted to execute on, you know, and like um being willing, being willing to like be bad, but being willing to put in the work to get better, you know, and like especially in those early days and and still nowadays, you know, but especially early on, it's like I would shoot something, I'd go to edit it, and I'd be like, why doesn't this look like this? Why, why doesn't this feel like the way I want it to feel, right? And I think if you can kind of reverse engineer what's wrong with something, and like, you know, wrong is subjective and it's not necessarily negative, right? And I think that's where you know some people can trip up and and fall. And I I'm sure I kind of probably fall too far on the spectrum sometimes, and like it's good to recalibrate that. But if you can be honest with yourself about your work and understand like where the shortcomings are, you can always adjust, you can always reiterate, you can always go learn the new skill that can help you kind of enhance that for the next time. So if you're you know able to be humble and able to be um like express humility with yourself about your own work, that's how you improve, that's how you get better, and that's ultimately how you progress.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:53

Man, yeah, so true, so so true. As we transition, right, obviously, as we kind of bring, you know, timeline, you're talking about. Talking about 2018, 2019, we're gonna get into COVID, right? As life changed. One of my last questions as we transition here, man, is you know, what would you tell maybe creatives where I feel like we live in a day and age who who want instant success, um, set up steady momentum? Like what would you tell those folks um yeah, today?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:19

I think the the concept of delayed gratification is something that's really important for a lot of people to to understand, you know, creatives or not. But I think for me, uh the what I would tell like a an early creative that's kind of looking for that instant success um over like that long-term momentum is that there's nothing wrong with instant success. And I think it's certainly something if it's in front of you, you can absolutely go chase it and kind of uh take advantage of that for what it is. But if you are viewing the creative world as like a a realm and a career you want to be involved in for the next 20, 40 years, you do have to at some point build something that has like longevity and and lasting power. And the best way to do that is to kind of like build momentum and use it in your favor. So for me, I would say like don't be shy about the instant success, but like be able to recognize which one's which and ultimately make sure that you are working towards like that sustained long-term momentum because that's that's what allows you to really like make this viable, but also like build the space for you to be like truly creative, right? Because if you're if you're kind of chasing the instant option, the instant option every time, eventually like you sort of hit this wall where you don't get to prepare for the next progress, you don't get to level up, and you don't get to like fully express your creative boundaries. And like that may not be important to you right away, and that's okay, but ultimately it will be one day. And I think that that's how you kind of guarantee yourself a a long career in in this world is kind of like building on that and giving yourself the space to to be able to fully express yourself creatively.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:01

Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I I I'm thinking, you know, even just stamina, you know, you you don't have that if you're joining for the quick, one quick hit, you you you don't ever develop you kind of your lungs per se, right? Metaphorically, in in the field to do the long, kind of bigger projects uh that are demanding. Um as we transition, right, we're we're we're kind of diving to COVID, right? Life obviously changes. You're kind of, I would say, a novice in a sense, not really novice, but you're new, right? Within a year or two, COVID happens, right? Everyone's like, okay, what the hell now? Um, how did that reshape you know the creative industry from like your perspective and from where you were at at that point in time?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:40

Yeah, so I was in an interesting position. I was still in North Carolina at the time when COVID hit, and I was also working like somewhat in-house for one of my clients as their creative director, but I was still freelancing fully during that and had the space and time to do it because it was sort of like a hybrid in-house role. Um yeah, COVID was interesting because it really trimmed down like the sizes of crews for a lot of projects. And I think that that kind of became an advantage for me because I was someone who sort of came from this like content creation world and this travel content world. And that meant working efficiently out of one backpack, right? Out of one camera bag. And for me, like being someone that was able to wear multiple hats and kind of uh do a lot of different jobs creatively at once, it allowed me to kind of get on some projects that maybe maybe I would have gotten, maybe I wouldn't have gotten if it wasn't COVID. But I all I know is that I ended up getting a lot more of those projects during COVID when budgets were tighter. And that gave me the reps and like the uh the momentum, truthfully, to like really kind of like, oh, we're going all in on this, right? And you know, I was also someone that was like comfortable traveling on a budget if I had to. I was someone that was comfortable like just still being who I was when I was out of my comfort zone. And oddly enough, like with COVID too, some of the projects ended up just going international as opposed to like dealing with all the hoops and ladders of the US, you know. So like I had a project in Mexico where we shot, and like um, you know, there were still regulations and guidelines and things like that, but it was like, well, if you're in this tropical place and you're not near anybody, it's a lot easier to shoot than if you're in like a set in North Carolina where we have to COVID test every two days, right? So um there were things of that nature where it's just like you couple that with the fact that all of the content that brands had stored up, most of it was like irrelevant, you know, as far as messaging goes. So a lot of brands actually needed more content during that period, and you have more people that are at home shopping and things like that. It was it was really like a in some ways this perfect storm that kind of like lend itself to, oh, well, you're someone that can do high volume batch shooting pretty well. Like, great. We need that, and we need a lot of it, and we need someone that can do every job. And so I I actually ended up getting a good bit of work during COVID, and I'm very fortunate um for that because I know a lot of people um had to really pivot hard during that period, and um, luckily it was just sort of perfect timing for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:20

Yeah, it sounds like you said it was a perfect storm. You know, we talked offline, you said you were operating kind of like 90, 95% of traditional quality, you know, pricing, right? Kind of nearly half the cost. And it sounds like, you know, the traveling, the backpacking definitely did help on those instances. So you said kind of being lean, working out of a backpack helped you with some of those shots that you know, shoots that you got um down the road. I wanted to kind of dive into because you said you worked in-house. So for those who are listening, um, what did working, I guess, with a certain brand or maybe multiple brands, what did that teach you about freelancing, or what did that teach you that freelancing never could by working in-house?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:59

It's a great question. So I've worked in-house for two different brands over the years, and both of them were former clients that basically wanted to kind of take me off the market. And they did so in different capacities. Um, but both of those like situations, I think the biggest thing was really showed me how like the photos and videos and everything that we produce gets used and like where it all lives. And I and that taught me like a you know, a really important balance of like, okay, there's the artistic side and there's the performance side of content, right? And both of those things have to work in in order for it to make sense for the brand. So it kind of taught me a lot about balancing that, which I think was super important. And I think it also kind of gave me a perspective of what's possible with Teams as opposed to solo shoots and like where and when those things do and don't fit, and like kind of what the best time for some of those things are. Excuse me. Um yeah, you know, I think also too, it it it really reminded me what is vital to the creative process and what's not. You know, there's a lot of redundancy that goes on in corporate settings, and I think um that is very true for creative fields as well, too. So for me, it was kind of just like this really eye-opening, just like shine a light on all things creative in terms of uh professional setting, like how the content's used, how it's produced, and and ultimately like where the the gaps and opportunities are to like do it better and do it more efficiently.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:34

Yeah. Speaking of like live, right? You said like where the product or the uh content lives. You speak about that, or you spoke about it prior, like living assets, right? Understanding where the content is or what the brand uses it for years. How did that insight, you know, evaluate or help your creative strategy moving forward? Kind of had that insight.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:55

I think it ultimately helped me like with going into shoots, you know, just thinking about like, okay, yes, this might be a beautiful shot, or this might be a really cool video. But are there just like little tweaks we can make in terms of optimizing this for the client as well, too? And those don't necessarily have to sacrifice the creative aspect of it, but they just might inform it or they might make us tweak something that's different, you know, whether it's better or worse or the same. You know, a good way to think about it is like if you take a photo of uh like a beautiful landscape or a skyline, like is there a way for me to just sort of slightly shift it so that now there's like some negative space in the frame that would allow a brand to put copy over it, some text that now they can use this in five different ways instead of just like the one, right? And so I think little things like that just kind of help you do it. And I think that that also just reinforces the importance of like pre-production and planning like how to shoot. Because if you can kind of think about some of those possibilities and those opportunities before you go into the project, like it it all becomes a lot easier. So I think it also helped me just get better and better at like the initial strategy.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:09

Yeah, okay. Man, it sounds like you give us a little insight. Okay, give us a little example there of what you could do. Okay, I won't take it from one to five. I'm like, okay, that's insight. All right, people are listening, they they can take that. Yeah, we're trying, we're trying. How how important is it uh as we as we move forward here? How's important how important is it for creatives to understand, you know, the business and the distribution, right? Not just the art and and understand that that concept. But I think you know, before you answer that, I think a lot of this resembles to sports or like uh artists. They once they get into it, they're like, oh, there's more, there's a business behind this. It's not just my voice or my athletics or what have you. Like there's another component to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:48

I think it ultimately depends on like what arenas someone lives in. But at the end of the day, like we're all selling something. And like what we could be selling is just why the employer should continue to employ us, right? But I don't think there's like any amount of business knowledge that someone can have or learn that becomes detrimental to them. So I think like the more informed, especially for creatives, because that's something that isn't like at the forefront of like a, you know, a film degree or like a photography class or whatever. But the more, the more informed creatives are in terms of the business side of things and the distribution, obviously, just the more tools they have at their disposal and ultimately like the better equipped they are to kind of deliver what a client needs and also live just like set their business up in a way that it's sick like built to succeed and has that lasting longevity to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:43

Yeah, no, that's a yeah, that's true. Help them um, you know, just maximize the business, understand how to position themselves, and uh, you know, essentially too, I'd say maybe not get taken advantage of, but also understand the dynamics of you know, the ebbs and flows. So I want to transition, right? We're we're kind of getting to the back half here um before we wrap up here. But you know, you in the beginning you kind of talked about, right, when you traveled to Peru and all these other different countries, you know, you dabbled in, you know, these some of these documentaries and you actually did some create some awesome work out there. Um and you stepped into like, you know, documentary uh filmmaking recently, right? So what pulled you kind of toward long-term storytelling, um, which may be different from what you were doing, which was short-term or different applications?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:29

So I think long-form storytelling was already always part of the plan. You know, I love documentaries, especially kind of that phase of self-discovery we talked about, like end of college right afterwards as well. Yeah. Like a lot of what I was doing was sort of watching documentaries, trying to figure out what paths were out there and what like what cool things I could just go try. And one of my idols to this day uh is a guy named Jimmy Chin. He's kind of best known for filming free solo, but he also uh has done some pretty rad things in the mountains, and he he's an absolute legend. Look him up. He's skied down Everest multiple times. He's just a tank. But he had made this film um, I believe in 2016, called Meru, that I had watched, and it's about like three guys, including himself, that go up this really like difficult, plunging mountain. Yeah, it's it's a fantastic watch, but I think I watched it like four or five times. Uh like in like a three-month span, just like showing it to friends and all this stuff. And I was like, ultimately, one day it'd be amazing to make something like films like that. Like that seems like a such a cool way to live your life, to be the guy that's just like running around his super cool adventures, just documenting everything. Um, but then like that thing that we've talked about so many times about self-belief and doubts, just sort of you know, was there as well, right? And like, oh yeah, am I a good enough climber to do something like that? Am I someone that can figure out to make this all work and all of that, right? And um, you know, I I think documentaries were on the back burner early on, just because like there's so many skills as a videographer, a DP, a photographer, that like you obviously have to know that to do storytelling well, right? And I think I'm someone that like I am a bit of a perfectionist, I am my own worst critic. Um I think there's a lot of advantages of that. There's definitely some disadvantages, but the the important part of that is like if I'm going to do something, I want to be able to do it as well as I can or as well as I think is like acceptable. And I think early on, documentaries were just out of the question because they just felt like such big projects. But I think the more and more I continue down this career path and the more creative skills I continue to develop, like I started to realize like, okay, some of these things are possible. And I'm also someone that, you know, still to this day, like I think I'm more creative than I used to be. I think I'm someone that, you know, I I now view myself more creatively than I used to do as well. But at the end of the day, like I'm not someone that I think has like the gift of like a creative eye or someone that just like naturally is like putting out these beautiful works of art. And I think that's okay. But I think what's really cool about documentaries and and like longer form storytelling is that though, like you can sort of use like the bits and pieces of each thing to sort of build this formula that the end spits out this really creative, beautiful piece of work. And so I think that's something that has drawn me into them like over the past couple of years, is like kind of understanding, like, okay, these tools that I have, like if I combine them in certain ways to tell these magnificent stories, now that's like a really creative piece of work that ultimately like I'm proud to share. Right. And so I think that that's the other aspect of it too, is like you talk about what is success look like. You know, I think it starts with you know finding an arena where you can wholeheartedly and passionately apply yourself. But I think the like the cherry on the cake for that is like if you can be really proud of that work and uh like have something that you can be excited to show, like your friends and family and stuff, like that's that's exciting for me. And so I think we're kind of entering that phase and um I'm really excited to see where it goes. But yeah, we're we're in the documentary world nowadays, which is cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:25

I love it, man. I I mean I love documentaries personally, so for those who are listening, man, it it's uh I love them. I love the storytelling, I love the narrative. Um, you know, either on Apple TV, right? Those who go in the jungles and Amazon and they're they're in there, right? I could see you riding a little canoe right in the water. So it's like I love that stuff. I eat it up. So it's it's it's dope that you're you're doing that now and and journeying into that that avenue. Um you spoke of Peru in the beginning uh of the podcast, right? You filmed a documentary there. We're gonna tap into it now. Um, obviously the same place where you kind of started off in your creative expansion and journey. What did that full circle moment feel like? And uh feel free to also you can talk about the uh documentary that you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:09

Yeah, so just to again, you know, add a little context. So I mentioned we we talked about that four and a half month trip around the world, but it started with a month in Peru. And so that really meant like, um, you know, at the time when I went down there, I was comfortable with photography, but I wasn't like, you know, an amazing photographer or anything. Yeah. Um I hadn't done much with video yet, but I knew that videography was something that I wanted to do more of. And so when this trip started, like the whole goal for me shooting-wise, was to also do like these recap videos everywhere I went. And so Peru is really like the first place where I gave myself full permission to shoot video like all out, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, so to then come back like seven years later on a project that I'm getting paid to be down there for to film like a documentary, which is the type of project I wanted to work on my whole life and stuff like that. It's just really like one of those moments where again, like you're aware of like the how special the period of time that you're in is. Yeah. And I don't think you get those opportunities in life too often. Uh so I was really fortunate and like feel so grateful to like to be aware of that while it was going on. It was also really fun because uh so my friend is a really talented like Peruvian chef. He has a restaurant in New York. Good good friend of mine, his wife went to school with my wife, so we just like know them well. And so it was also cool to just like kind of see him in his element because he was sort of like the Anthony Bourdain of this documentary about Ceviche and all the different regions of Peru. It was like really fun project. That's awesome. But it was also cool too because like you know, I was the only non-Peruvian on the project, right? So like we're in this wild environment, right? And you talked about you know how we kind of get comfortable with some of these things, and um you know, it was still uh in many ways like a project where I was really out of my comfort zone, right? Because it's first time working on a documentary. I'm with a crew that only speaks Spanish primarily, you know, like a lot of them spoke quite a bit of English, but like I was having to use a lot of Spanish on set to like really like make it all work, and it was great. And it was like an amazing crew and had a blast and like still talked to some of those guys. Um, so it was just super fun to like, you know, in many ways being like coming back, like, oh, now I have all these skills, I have like this established business, I got clients, all this, but at the same time, just like still being way in over my head. Um so it was really fun in that regard. But yeah, the the documentary is called Ceviche. Is I I actually just talked to the Rodrigo and it sounds like it's gonna premiere in Peru in September, which is really cool. So I might try to get down there for that. Um but it's a feature link, so yeah, it's cool. We go to three different regions of Peru and just explore um what Ceviche means to those different uh areas and and how different chefs and restaurateurs are approaching it in those different walks of life, and it's it's a really cool project, it was really fun. And yeah, we you know, you talk about riding in the canoe. I was hanging off the edge of an ATV on a beach, you know, leaning over, holding my camera, filming some stuff. So it was fun, man. It was really cool, but yeah, it was just a nice reminder as well, too, that like even when it feels like we have things figured out, we still don't have things figured out because you know you go back in there as a as a seasoned vet, but also as a complete rookie as well, too. So it was just a it was a blast though.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:49

Man, I love that. Man, I love that for you because that's that's uh that's something to be proud of, honestly. Man, as a friend and who knows you um outside of your Mets, that's something to you know clap about, be proud of. Like you said, be proud of your work that hey man, I'm I'm doing it. And it was something that you were immersed in and and uh learned so much, I think, just from just the experience beyond just filming. It was just the uh the culture. Um so you also worked on a women's mountain, uh also working, excuse me, on a women's uh mountain climbing documentary in Mexico. Um, you know, what excites you about telling stories about human resilience?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:26

Man, uh I mean I think this probably comes as no uh no surprise. Yeah, this is you know, because like I like I said, I'm someone that likes to empty the tank. I like to see what I'm made of, I like to go all out. So you talk about resilience and like showcasing those stories. I think it's really cool to just celebrate people that are doing incredible things and like putting in these massive efforts and you know, pushing themselves to this point that it becomes abundantly clear that there's so much that life has to offer us, right? And like if I think if you can capture that and showcase that and um you know help inspire other people to like push themselves and whatever that means for them, I think that's really powerful and it's really rewarding. I think it's also at the end of the day, like a really fun challenge because if you're keeping up with a story that like really is heavily centered on resilience and like physical effort, uh you got to be able to keep up with the people that are doing it, right? And so like I think trying to document these really badass women that were doing a first ascent of a mountain of a route down in Mexico, yeah. Like that for me was one of the closest things to uh like playing a college soccer game that I've experienced in a while, where it's like, okay, like time to lock in, you know, let's let's make it happen. Like, let's see if we can let's see what we got, right? And I think that that was a blast as well, too, being able to kind of combine those two things.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:48

Yeah, yeah, hell yeah, man. I love it. And kind of a quick question has I guess you know, storytelling, documentary kind of style, has that been challenging in different ways than just like a commercial, you know, normal.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:00

work absolutely I mean there's there's so many different elements of it that are that are like kind of posing different challenges you know I actually had a call with the the brand that's sponsoring the documentary and um today and and our team as well and kind of going through different feedback and things like that and you know so like longer storytelling like you get different types of feedback than you do like a commercial project right and like that's great you know it's it's not necessarily good bad or indifferent but it's just like it's just a different process. So I think ultimately that's like a a fun challenge. I think also too when you're you know when you're doing like more commercial usually there's a bit more of a brief involved right where you kind of have an idea of what you're trying to capture or what you're trying to create. And I think obviously with documentaries you have an idea of that going into it but you also understand that there's only so many variables you can control and that depends on the type of documentary or type of story you're trying to tell. But at the end of the day you are going to have to problem solve a little bit differently. And you know with a project of that length like anything that changes will affect it differently right and so you're gonna have more opportunities for changes like that to happen and and ultimately those compound over time. So I think it's it's also interesting with these longer projects just seeing how they morph and evolve over time compared to like something that's more of like a 10 15 20 60 second video you know like it's just a it's a different game but it's it's fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:31

Yeah for sure. So obviously you mean you've blended rock climbing which for those of you who have uh been listening you know Rob definitely does some rock climbing in his in his uh in his day obviously rock climbing travel and storytelling storytelling into your work do you think um you know creativity becomes strongest when you or when it overlaps with your personal passion such as rock climbing and you know travel?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:52

Yeah I mean I think um I think it kind of depends a little bit you know like I love the challenge of every shoot I love the creative problem solving for any shoot but at the end of the day like one of my biggest clients is women's footwear right and like we have a lot of fun on those shoots and like they really challenge me and stimulate me in a way that a lot of other like documentary projects never will right and like the the creative process for those is super fun. But I think anytime you can combine like your personal passions with like your work it's always a blast right like you get to lean into it a bit more and like from a creative perspective you are able to anticipate things a little bit differently you kind of have like a gut intuition about what's coming so you might be able to kind of plan a creative shot a little bit better whatever it may be. I think at the end of the day like I said I'm always looking for the types of projects where I can like passionately pour myself into them wholeheartedly and like an 18 hour day is a lot of work but it's also a lot of fun. Right. And I think naturally when you're in an environment where you're filming and documenting or photographing like the things that you like to do in your free time for me like those naturally just end up being more fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:08

Yeah yeah absolutely man it's uh it's a good mix definitely good mix. And and do you see too Rob like do you see your like um I guess documentary kind of being like your own lane moving forward is that kind of like over I guess your legacy document Yeah I mean I think it's a good question.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:24

Um I I'd say maybe maybe not I I I hope so like I'm having a lot of fun with it right now but I historically have been someone that is sort of averse to like setting and relying on goals. I know that's not like the the norm in society these days and I think there's there's definitely some drawbacks of that um but I am I'm a big believer that like uh I like having the space for the projects to come to me if that makes sense as well too and that that goes for photography and videography but that also goes for life in general as well too. So I like it it very well could be um but I'm not someone that's gonna take the time to overanalyze stress or anything like that about whether or not it will I'm just gonna kind of put one foot in front of the other do the work and and see what comes of it because my buddy Taya who he mentioned earlier in the process or in the interview he he mentioned he always has this phrase that he likes to lean on that's like uh one thing leads to another so do the one thing well right and um yeah it's good I think it's a really powerful thing and I I think for me like I've always taken the mindset of let's let's give this my all right like let's try this out and so far it's you know allowed some really unique projects and experiences to come into my life and some of those I would you know be okay if they didn't happen but a lot of them like I would never trade them for the world right and I think that you know if I'm only focused on whether or not documentaries will become my legacy then there's other projects and other experiences that I might miss out on. So I just try to kind of focus on doing the good work and and seeing what comes from there.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:07

Man yeah that's absolutely uh absolutely right yeah always keep keeping the options open keep the horizons uh expanded um well like I said as we as we come to the to come to a close here man you spent your your career following curiosity allowing your work really to evolve naturally which is a beautiful process from engineering to travel to filmmaking and obviously now storytelling with uh documentaries as you look ahead what creative or life directions feel most like where you you know currently or right now it's a good question um it may come as no surprise but I'm someone that has my hands in a lot of different pots um so you know documentary storytelling right now is a is a blast for me I I really enjoyed my uh like commercial clients and like that creative workflow as well too like it's a really exciting period but you know it's also been really fun to to see my wife sort of step into her own as like a really inspiring like knowledgeable badass like yogi right and she is really carving out this really cool lane in her life of like kind of being this kinesiology and anatomically based like yoga like go-to person and then um so anything I can do to kind of magnify that for her and who she's becoming in that world and like the retreats and the trainings that she's leading like is really fun for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:25

And then also sort of working on some side projects as well in the background that are uh you know pretty exciting that they're uh I'd say content media adjacent um but yeah it's uh it's a fun space to be in and then on top of that just sort of leaning into more and more of these like endurance challenges that sort of light me up like I do a 24 hour rock climbing competition every year. I'm about to do this long endurance race as well too and so those are fun for me and I think kind of doing more and more of that and seeing how I can kind of blend work with those types of um adventures and side quests are uh fun yeah are fun for me right now. Oh yeah yeah no I I I love it and you've been exploring too you talked about um you know exploring other opportunities with uh specifically with hemp as you spoke offline and and really more the supplement supplement space um if you're open to sharing kind of what sparked that curiosity you know about that world and how that kind of came about um yeah so for me kind of like looking into the hemp world I think you know you can probably relate to this but as a collegiate athlete especially there was a lot of like demonization around you know different um cannabis and like hemp products and things like that and um I think a lot of that just comes from not fully understanding them and and not having the research there but I think you know 10 years removed from all that like a lot of the research has come a pretty long way and just um starting to like kind of see and understand how those types of products can actually be used as tools you know whether it's a performance standpoint, whether it's a creative standpoint and you know just slowly experiment with some of those things and and realizing like the the types of experiences that I was having with them were actually like better and better than I expected them to be and and kind of quite the opposite of what the stories that I'd been told throughout the years were and and realizing how they affected my work and how they affected my personal life and all how all of those things were sort of significantly better than the alternative options really kind of sparked this curiosity for me to kind of look into it more and more and start doing more research on what was possible with them.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:43

Yeah no I agree I think uh connotation's always been kind of negative uh when it comes to that and obviously athletes it's you know you're told obviously stay away from it and uh in any capacity. So I I appreciate you sharing that because I think you know that's it's unique to obviously dying to that field of what you're doing kind of blending you know wellness well being um just creative work also within within the cannabis field and hemp specifically um last couple questions here for you uh Rob you know you've embraced uncertainty obviously throughout your whole career um how has your relationship with uncertainty changed over time as you looked at your process I think that my relationship with uncertainty has evolved into sort of understanding that like the uncertainty is okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:31

Right. And I think being comfortable with that is something that I've like kind of had to evolve into as well too because you know I as I mentioned like I was someone that was really motivated in athletics but also in terms of like academics. And I think in that vein I I loved always having the answer right always trying to find out what the right answer was or you know studying the technique for math that like allowed me to kind of come to that. And I think that that's great. But I think that doesn't really leave a lot of room for uncertainty you know as a high schooler or college student or whatever it may be. And I think the more and more I've gone through life and especially sort of been willing to commit to some of these like uncertain phases of my life as well too I I've started to understand and realize like uncertainty isn't always a bad thing. And uncertainty isn't always like a a death sense, you know what I mean in terms of like figuring something out. And so I think now like as I've gone through this career and gone through different phases of life um now when I encounter uncertainty I am more willing to like sit with it. I'm more willing for it to just play out and more willing to just continue to move forward with it even when I don't have the answer because it I know that there are only so many paths that can diverge from it. And so I think the the biggest thing that's changed is just sort of like an appreciation and an understanding for the fact that like I can continue to move through uncertainty and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:06

Yeah I think the last line's most important right moving through uncertainty chaos um just not stable ground if you will and being okay to walk through uh all of that so that's that's that's a lesson in itself that could be a whole word you could talk about yeah yeah later on.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:22

Yeah I mean especially in the creative world like you know there's I'm sure most work is like this but you know it ebbs and flows right and it comes in waves and I think for like you know early on in my career like if I didn't have a shoot lined up or I didn't have a client booked or anything like that like you know there's a lot of doubt that comes into it with that. And I think you know nowadays like just to give an example it's like okay I know that it's gonna be a waves I know that the phone will ring and so instead of like stressing during that period of doubt or or like allowing those doubts to kind of control my next decisions when they come in like recognizing them and then also recognizing that they only have so much validity to them and like being patient in that allows me to kind of put my energy elsewhere instead of like stressing about what the solution is or why how I can fix it and XYZ. Yeah no I agree last question here for you man is obviously through all your all your experience what you've done right engineering global travel freelancing right what version are yourself what version of yourself my son in the background here what version of yourself are you most proud of uh becoming yeah that's a that's another tough one um I think I you know I I'd probably have two answers for this so I think one version I'm really proud of is like who I had to become in order to sort of take that first leap right because as you mentioned that was a period that had a lot of fear had a lot of doubt involved with it and for me um you know I think it would have been very easy for me to not go on that trip to not pursue photography videography and to just play it safe and take the job and and move on right and there wouldn't have been anything wrong with that but I'm really really happy and really really feel blessed for like the opportunities and the experiences I've gotten to you know have in my life because I was willing to sort of like step into that uncertainty and and kind of commit to that phase even though I was terrified during the time. So that's definitely one um but truthfully like I'm really proud of like this phase of life too. You know I feel like I'm in this um self-awareness phase of like kind of how significant some of the projects I'm working on right now are and sort of like how they may or may not kind of help affect the rest of my life and unfold. And um yeah I'm really excited about that. And it sort of feels like this period of evolution and growth and I don't think we get to be uh aware of some of those too often in life. So for me this is like a really fun period too because I'm like you know I'm in the trenches doing a lot which is fun but I'm also aware of like how significant some of that might be and that's that's not always the case. So yeah this this whole phase of evolution right now is like pretty exciting as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:26

Right on man uh I got my son here so I apologize on the no you good what's up man but uh that's what it's all about last question for you right I always ask right the the last question is man like the podcast is called Life is right and if you were right now in the season your life if you kind of fill in that blank right life is blank what would you fill that in with life is evolving I love that man it is it's always it always evolving and it's it's always um diverging right moving growing and uh it's never stagnant it's never stagnant so that's uh that's a good way to uh end the podcast and and you know move forward yeah life is always evolving my last thing here I'm gonna give you time right in the last 30 seconds here where can the guests the listeners find you in your social media uh projects just stay uh connected with you yeah so I have uh Instagram that's kind of like my main channel for everything yep it's at robert underscore lib because my last name is a lot in especially in North Carolina um so at L I B or underscore L I B.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:34

And then also have a couple projects I'm involved in as well too if you want to learn more about uh climbing uh you can listen to a podcast that I work on my buddy called the Ground Up Podcast it's at listen to ground up on Instagram and then as as you mentioned coy I'm working on a uh project in the background um that is hemp and cannabis related um project that's gonna hopefully help people celebrate movement and types and and rediscover that so that is uh still in the works but you can find that on Instagram right now at hello or sorry at enjoy lazy days is the uh tag on Instagram for that but if you go to my Instagram page you'll find everything that's the best way to do it so at robert underscore lib.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:19

All right man well I love it man I appreciate it and I'll make sure to put those in the show notes so for the guests uh you'll be able to find that and uh get connected with you stay connected with you as well as you move through your journey um in your season of life but more than happy man I'm I'm grateful um to have you on the show and I appreciate your time your wisdom and just to share your expertise your expertise with uh those who are listening so thank you I appreciate the time from you as well Choy and thank you for having me on man this was a this was a blast this was fun and this was also uh therapeutic in some ways too so I'm I'm excited and uh hopefully listeners enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:52

Awesome. Well hey man take care Rob and uh I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:56

All right see ya what Robert showed us today is that self-awareness is not a soft skill. It is the most structural decision you'll ever make. He knew in an engineering program at 20 something years old that the path he was on was not his and instead of staying because it was working he left because it was not true. Everything that came after the travel the career the documentaries the full circle return to Peru all of it was downstream of that one act of internal honesty. That is not a career story that is a coherent story and that is exactly what this show is about. I'll see you in the next episode. That's a wrap on today's episode of the Life Is Podcast. If something in this conversation landed for you a shift in perspective a reminder or something you needed to hear don't let it stay there. Take it with you put it to work. If you're ready to go deeper I have tools built specifically for this journey a self discovery blueprint and a diagnostic designed to show you exactly where your foundation needs attention. Links are in the show notes. And if this episode added value share with someone who's building leave a review help us grow this community of intentional people doing real work. Remember, fulfillment isn't found it's built. Life is art in motion and you are the artist. Until next time, keep building