The Surprising Power of Acceptance and Surrender in High-Stakes Leadership with Monica Neal

From Healthcare Leader to CEO: Navigating Systemic Change and Self-Mastery

In this episode, Monica Neal shares her journey from a small-town Louisiana girl to a healthcare executive and aspiring CEO. Tune in to explore how self-awareness, systemic leadership, and ontological coaching guide her through complex challenges, personal growth, and transformational leadership in healthcare.

Key Topics:

• Monica’s early influences and career shift from journalism to healthcare
• How personal experiences with family health shaped her purpose
• The importance of systems thinking in healthcare leadership
• Building a hospital from the ground up—lessons learned and cultural insights
• Mentoring successors: the value of investing in people and leadership legacy
• Applying ontological coaching to develop self-awareness and resilience
• The role of curiosity and emotional intelligence in navigating uncertainty
• Lessons from Bali: embracing change through external and internal reflection
• The significance of self-observation and body awareness for effective leadership
• The "internal architecture" of managing stress, chaos, and personal seasons
• The growth mindset: stepping into the CEO seat with confidence and vulnerability
• Practical tools: body postures, acceptance, discernment, and controlled surrender
• Inside the CEO development program: embodiment, feedback, and high-stakes decision making
• Future aspirations: writing a leadership book and fostering higher self-awareness in teams
• The importance of authenticity, presence, and trust in leadership
• Final advice: trust yourself, embrace messiness, and lead with curiosity

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction and Monica’s diverse healthcare journey

02:26 - Monica’s early influences and career shift from journalism to healthcare

04:49 - System-level thinking: improving healthcare outcomes through leadership

07:17 - Building a rehab hospital from scratch: lessons in culture and Systems

12:27 - The significance of creating environments for others to succeed

16:26 - Mentoring successors: leadership without possession of the seat

20:13 - Bali trip insights: cultural reflection and self-awareness

24:02 - Developing mastery of self-observation and emotional regulation

32:30 - The decision and motivation to pursue MBA and ontological coaching during COVID

35:21 - Self-awareness as a tool for navigating high-stakes conversations

39:44 - What is ontological coaching and how it differs from traditional models

42:20 - Embodying leadership: shifting internal patterns for external results

46:14 - Practical application: open-ended questions in staff development

50:26 - Neuroscience, performance psychology, and the change process

52:39 - The power of internal shifts and self-image in leadership success

55:39 - Inside the CEO development program: embodiment, vulnerability & accountability

59:15 - The internal work: managing personal seasons and external chaos

63:15 - Building resilience and staying grounded amid challenges

66:39 - Personal transformation: letting go, rebuilding, and alignment

69:10 - Next steps: internal reflection and strategic positioning

74:14 - The importance of passion, authenticity, and self-trust to reach leadership goals

80:31 - Grounding through faith, routine, and community

85:34 - Embracing change and continuous growth through curiosity

89:52 - The power of claims, self-permission, and boldness in leadership

93:24 - The role of self-awareness and presence in becoming a CEO

97:37 - Connecting with Monica: LinkedIn & upcoming book on leadership practices

100:00 - Final thoughts: life is messy, but clarity empowers change

Resources & Links:

• Books That Built the Life
• Monica's Instagram 
• Monica Neal’s LinkedIn
• Ontological Coaching - Mention LIFEISPOD10 - Email - Nealm02@protonmail.com
• Want to be first to read her book - Email - Nealm02@protonmail.com
• Moods of Life Chart 
• The Self Discovery Blueprint 
• Mental Edge Coherence Diagnostic 

Connect with Host:

• Email: thisisthelifeispodcast@gmail.com
• Instagram 
• LinkedIn
• Wanting to learn more about the Coherence Program? Email me directly. 

Notable Quotes:

• "Life is messy, but once you can see it, you can choose differently."
• "Leadership is about building the conditions for others to do their best work, not holding a seat."

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Life Is Podcast, where creativity, culture, mindset, and intentional living come together through real conversation. I'm your host, Cloy Brown. Each week I sit down with entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, travelers, and visionaries who didn't stumble into a life they love, they built it. We go deep into how they think, how they reconstructed themselves, and what became possible on the other side. This is not just about what people have accomplished, it's about the internal work that made it sustainable. Because when you build from the inside out, life expands. Let's get into it. I met this week's guest in Bali, and if you know anything about the kind of people who end up in Bali, intentionally and not accidentally, you already have a sense of who she is. Monica Neal is a healthcare executive, a certified ontological coach, and someone who has completed her MBA in 2022 in the middle of a global pandemic, not because the timing was right, but because she understood the most important investment she could make was in how she led herself. She has spent over a decade in healthcare leadership, opened a rehab hospital from scratch, led teams through COVID, and is now one step from the CEO seat, having entered her institution's executive development program while simultaneously navigating one of the more demanding personal seasons of her life. What I found most striking about Monica when we met, and what this conversation will make clear, is that she does not study just how leaders change. She is living it in real time with full transparency and without apology. Here's what that looks like. All right. Well, hey, good afternoon. We have another episode of the Life Is Podcast hosted by myself. And uh this week we have another phenomenal guest. Um we have Monica Neal, who is an ontological coach and healthcare executive, excuse me. But more importantly, excited to have you, Monica, um, just because of the wealth of knowledge, your expert, your experience. And uh, for those who are listening, I hope you do pay attention because what she's gonna share is in-depth. It's complex, but it's very directed and it's very valuable to uh you know having a life that is. So, Monica, welcome to the show. And it is great to see you. You look good, like I said. You're you're put together. Um, but yeah, good to have you. How are you doing? I'm doing really well. It's been such a long time since we've actually seen each other. Um, so yeah, I'm excited to dive in. This is my first podcast. So good. Here we go. Yeah, we're we're glad to have you. And uh honestly, too, yeah, for the listeners who are uh you know listening or will see this on YouTube, uh, me and Monica actually met uh, which is crazy, eight years ago in Bali, 2018. So of all places, we met there, and I I don't even know how we met specifically. Like I know there was a strip and there was some, you know, we were on the same street. And ironically, I have you in my video, one of the videos I took. But we ended up meeting at a bar there. And um, yeah, of all places, Bali, and you know, now eight years later, here we are. So very unique um interaction, but you know, it's great to see you obviously uh after all these years. Yes, I I remember the exact details of our meeting. We were on, we we it was really, really hot, like super. Yes. So me and the person that I was with said, let's pop into a restaurant, grab a drink. We saw a pool table in the back of the restaurant, and then you and your partner um came over and we we all shot a game of pool, like just four randos meeting in Gilliards in another country. I know, which is wild, but it's that's the beauty of it. You know, you meet people from different areas and you stay connected over the time, and it's just yeah, so it's it's wild. And I I appreciate you feeling the story because I was, you know, blanking out on it. But yeah, ball places, Bali, pool table, and uh a couple couple of drinks in the in in between. So good time. Well, hey, let's we'll kind of get started here and and really for our listeners, just kind of ease into it if you can, right? For those who are listening who are just meeting you, Monica, um, can you kind of tell me who you are, um, what you do in the world right now, and then really kind of what brought you up to this point um in your life. Sure. So my name is Monica Neal. I am a small town southern Louisiana girl who had big dreams. Originally thought I wanted to be a journalist and travel the world capturing stories in foreign countries. Yes. But after seeing some family members navigate some serious health issues, I thought healthcare might be a good choice instead. So I went to LSU, Go Tigers, then ended up at the Allied Health Extension School of Harvard University in Boston for a physical therapy school. And then, because why not? I moved to New York City. I figured if you could make it there, you can make it anywhere. That path led me into healthcare leadership, where I was able to build and scale rehab programs, began to mentor some teams, and then was able to actually be where I am now, co-opening a new build hospital, which is an experience. And investing in my own development along the way, getting my MBA during COVID and becoming an ontological coach, which we'll talk about later. Right now, though, I'm hopefully stepping into my first CEO role through a development program, which is really exciting and definitely a stretch. Yes. And I think a lot of my journey has been about curiosity, leaning into challenges and learning how to show up completely, even when the timing isn't perfect. And some of that perspective even came from my trip to Bali, um, which we just spoke about, but um and and meeting amazing people that you stick with forever. Yeah. Well, awesome. I and I appreciate giving really the the whole encapsulation of like, you know, where you're at now and how that really got there, right? And that really kind of leads us to our next question because talking about your trajectory into your field, I feel like, you know, and we once again we spoke all blind, like everything you've done is of course helped you to where you're at now. It's almost like it was just another layer stacked on another to improve, right, refine and um get better overall. But if you can kind of take me back to like your healthcare career, right? Um, and I was always saying like kind of take me to like the real version, not the resume version that we all live in, right? Kind of LinkedIn world. You briefly kind of just touched on it now, but what kind of drew you into this field and what did you think it was going to be, you know, versus what you actually discovered when you got into it? Yes. So I grew up in Louisiana uh in a military family. Both my parents were entrepreneurs. So from early on, I was exposed to discipline, but also the idea of building something yourself and then taking ownership of that work. Yes. The moment that healthcare became personal for me was when my I was a teenager, my niece, who we are about a year apart in age, was diagnosed with lupus. And watching her move through the healthcare system in the 90s. Yeah, yeah. As a teenager in high school, gave me a very close view of how complex it can be for people in the system and also their families. I had originally thought about becoming a doctor, but what stood out to me during that time was how much the recovery and quality of life happens outside of the exam room. That led me to physical therapy. I wanted to help people regain their independence and their function. And my niece, when we were in high school, she was in a wheelchair, and that's devastating for two years. Um and she's a physical therapist now, too. So that changed her life as well. And she is um, you know, managing that that disease very, very well. But early in my career, I also realized something else that the outcomes that people have aren't just about the individualized clinician, they're about the systems around them. So the teams of people that, you know, work for every single patient, the different workflows that happen within the buildings that you're in. And the culture. And I know culture can be a buzzword, um, but it really does everything trickles from that. And so that realization is really what pulled me into leadership, which happened when I was in Dallas. Uh and I saw that improving those sim systems could impact far more patients than I ever could by myself. And that journey has led me all the way through the different jobs that I've had in management and leadership and hopefully soon CEO. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I I definitely, yeah, we definitely want to get the CEO. So we're we're giving you some good luck there. Just hearing that, it sounds like right, you've seen a gap, you've seen the parts to the whole, right? Compartmentalizing this whole process, this system, and then wanting to make this right cohesively, cohesively better for the end user. Obviously, in this case, it was your your niece, um, and putting that all together, which is awesome because you're seeing it firsthand. Like, here's the gaps, here's where I can improve it, and having a drive to like, hey, I want to make this better for everyone involved. Um kind of moving forward too, your your career obviously has moved through progressively larger and more complex leadership roles, which we're gonna get to later. Um, of course, from my clinical work, um, which we'll talk about, and then building an entire rehab hospital from scratch to where you're at now. Looking back at that like trajectory, um, was there a specific moment where you continuously um, or not continuously, but um consciously shifted from being someone doing the work, right? Um, to being someone building the conditions for others to do their best work. That makes sense. Yes. So I think that shift happened gradually. I first started managing a team in Dallas. I was surrounded by incredibly talented clinicians who genuinely wanted to do great work for their patients, which I think you know, most people in healthcare they go into it because they love it and they want to change lives. Right. But I also saw how often the systems got in their way, things like the workflow that didn't flow, um, the communication gaps. What's the biggest thing on surveys, especially in healthcare? It's always communication. Like it comes up every single time, no matter no matter what kind of bullets you throw at it, it still becomes the biggest thing where people say this needs to be better. And then resource constraints. What I have learned about healthcare is the only constant is change. And we are constantly being asked to do more with less. And so you have to be creative. But there are times where you wonder, I don't, I don't know, you know, I need other things on this. So that was the moment that I realized my role wasn't to be the best clinician in the room. It my role was to build an environment where the entire team could be successful. Because when the systems are right, when you have the staffing, which is also, you know, never perfect, when you have the best communication possible and when you have processes, which I think AI is going to be huge in healthcare, good clinicians can do their best work. And so that's when I started to change my thinking of how do I do this well to how can I help design the system so everybody can do it well. I saw that play out in New Orleans. I'm from about an hour south of New Orleans, when I helped implement an early mobility program in our intensive care unit. Yep. Our goal was to get patients off of the ventilator faster, get them out of the ICU faster. That saves the hospital money, that has to have better outcomes faster, all those things. And this reinforced for me how powerful system level changes can be when people come together. It was really, it was a win-win. So it it and it was a project that after being uh I I spoke at the National N Nursing Symposium conference, I forget what it was called, but it was in New Orleans that year. And we presented our data that all the other hospitals within the system that I worked with started to implement pieces of this. And that was exciting to say, you know, what we did is is it's being seen as working working. Yeah, I think it's a huge conviction piece too. Um, to see, like you said, you you put that work in. And I think too, from healthcare, I don't know, you could probably fill me in. I don't know how I'm assuming they probably move slow when you implement anything new, like construction or law. It's like it's gonna take forever to get to get implemented. And I think, you know, seeing that change, like, hey, this actually works is like huge confidence and like it's working, like you said. Um and it's also just like making that small change and seeing the massive difference of like, look, you know, we can make the small tweaks, and here's a massive or you know, quantitative difference that we can actually track and it's it's proven, right? So that's that's also important to I think to to to kind of highlight as you're talking about what you did in that in that program. Um, I actually want to talk about what you're what you're already kind of into. You opened up, say, a rehab hospital um from ground up, which is amazing and probably crazy and scary. Um, you hired an entire right therapy team and you built a culture, which you just talked about, built a culture from the build from before the building was finished, let a joint commission certification, all of this, right, which is a wild experience, but but great experience. Um and to your point, most leaders inherent systems, but you actually created it. Like this was something you um created, right? So what did what did like building something from nothing, right, teach you that you could not have learned in any other way? Yes, uh, it was quite a journey. Um, opening a hospital from scratch is one of the most intense leadership experiences I believe you can have, because everything has to be built at the same time. You have to build your team, you have to build the workflows, you've got to establish what your culture is going to be. And then you have to make sure that the regulatory infrastructure is there because you know that that's important. And I have to say, I I definitely didn't do this alone. We had a very strong CEO who led the our leadership team through that process, and it was a truly collaborative effort across all departments, which it has to be, right? You you know, like you can't build an island on your own. Um, but being part of that team gave me the opportunity to see how a hospital is built from the executive level and how everything has to come together at once. So, my role was building the therapy department. So I recruited and developed the therapy team, all the physical therapists, occupational therapists, speech language pathologists, our rehab techs, um, creating the workflows for patient care, how they were going to be scheduled, how we were gonna use the electronic medical record system that we were given. And then preparing for accreditation where they come in and they audit everything that you do to say, like, are you doing it the right way? At the same time, we were also trying to grow our senses and have patients come into the building because that's the whole reason that we're there and make the hospital financially sustainable. So, you know, it's just sort of a boom of everything. Um, and it was my first job in a freestanding rehab hospital. So I've worked in outpatient clinics, I've worked in sports medicine, I've worked in acute care hospitals, you know, where they have an emergency room. But this was first time is in a rehab hospital where patients stay there 10 to 12 days, they live there, get therapy, and the goal is that they go home. So, what that experience taught me is that culture and systems have to be intentional from day one. And when you're hiring a team and building processes at the same time, every decision shapes the foundation of the organization. So if you get that foundation right, the hospital can grow quickly. And within about nine months, we were able to achieve a positive net financial outcome, which I've learned of recently. Wow. Actually, a little slow. Like they want it done at about six months. Really? Nine months seems like it's crazy fast. Right. Well, I guess when you were mentioning all the things you had to do, I'm like, man, me being a listener myself, I'm like, that's that in itself was so much to handle at one time. Like you had this tornado of all this, you know, admin stuff and other stuff you had to do, real interviews with people and setting up systems to your point of making sure the beginning is right. Because I feel like, yeah, if you have the right load-bearing system or sequence, everything from there just scales easily, right, going forward. Of course, you have your growing pains, you're gonna have that. You're we're dealing with people, and obviously in your field, regulatory stuff. But um, yeah, it's it's it's important, right? Having that leadership and that culture, as much as it's maybe cliche, it's like that is um, I don't know, you could say maybe the secret sauce, if you will, but it's the X factor of like actually making this a reality uh and sustainable, right, to go forward. Speaking of that, because you you you didn't do it alone, right? And you kind of passed the torch going back, right? Because you also mentioned you mentored your own successor before transitioning um out of that. Um, and you know, we live in a world where it's kind of doggy dog world, and most people want to protect their seat um or kind of guardrail it. You you built people into yours, right? Um, my question, I guess, for that is like, where does that come from and what does it say maybe about you or how you think about um your own value as a leader, helping those folks? Sure. I think that's one of the things that defines how I've led over the years. It definitely started out clunky. You learn as you go. No one teaches you how to do this. Um, but I don't see leadership as holding a seat. I see it as building the conditions for others to do their best work. Because if people don't follow you, then are you really a leader, right? Exactly. Exactly. When I step into any new role, my goal is to make sure that I leave the team stronger than when I arrived. I won't say that I've been successful at that every single time, but that's my goal. For sure. Yeah. That means mentoring successors, investing in people, even if it might make my own position less central. Um, so for me, the value of leadership isn't necessarily in holding the title, it's leaving things better than I found them. So doing that requires a certain kind of internal security, right? So you have to trust that your worth isn't defined by your current role and that by helping someone else step up, you actually multiply the success of the organization. And so that's the principle that I've been applying for many, many years. And when I was in New Orleans, I was able to do this. I spent time mentoring my lead physical therapist at the time so that he could step into the position confidently. It's interesting because when I got my position in this particular community hospital, she had applied for my position. But he was screen, but we knew he wanted it. So I called him in really early on and said, Hey, I'm gonna help you. If you want this job, I'm gonna help you get it. And it took four years. I was there about four years. And when I left, he was put into my position. And, you know, after the fact, hearing about him thrive and learning that he just he stepped into it seamlessly because he embraced the the coaching and the mentoring. It it really it it just made me smile because you know, you got you got what you wanted. It took you some patient, but you but you did it. Yeah, that feels good, right? You had a um impact on that, on his journey to get to where you're at. You said two things that were like spot on. Um I'm kind of losing my thought, but I think it was, you know, essentially having your own self-worth, know who you are, um, and letting know that your self-worth is not defined by your productivity or your job title. I think a lot of us, you know, myself included, at times get caught in that. Um, you know, we feel we live in this world of like, you know, capitalism. So we like, you know, what you do, your output quote unquote defines you, and I think it's important that you you recognize that, doesn't it? And then also saying, hey, let me lend a hand to somebody, because like you said, if I if I'm able to do that, it's not all about me. I'm gonna multiply the value of this system or this, this uh, you know, my the hospital, but also myself, right? I become more resourceful, more impactful from a leadership leadership standpoint, um than just saying, hey, I'm gonna keep to myself. So like those two are like perfect that you identified those in that role in your job. Real quick, if you're an executive, a founder, or running a team in high stress industry like healthcare, you know how most management training doesn't stick. Monica doesn't just coach individuals, she helps organizations build cultures that thrive under pressure. If your leadership team needs the tools to navigate massive transition and shift accountability for real, bring Monica into your organization, head to the link in the show notes, connect with her directly, and mention code LifeISPOD10 to see how she can support your team. So I want to um jump a little bit forward. Um, well, maybe take it, let me jump a little back. I'm gonna go back to our story in Bali. Um, but of course, I said earlier, we we met in Bali, and I think you know, anyone who spends time there understands Bali is um it does something to you. It's beautiful, beautiful place. Um and you know, for most people, it's not a passive destination. Um it definitely asks something of you. And I think a lot of people go there for reasons, all of you know, minor reasons. What brought you there? Um, what did that trip actually you know do for you internally when you visited? Yeah, so the Bali trip actually started because I I knew someone who owned a yoga studio in Dallas where I was taking classes. And she did something that I think many of us secretly dream of. She bought a villa in Bali and opened it up for yoga retreats. Very eat pre love. Yeah, very much. And so I think knowing I'd have a familiar face in a foreign country gave me the courage to take the leap and the 17-hour flight. Um, and I spent an amazing 16 days there. It's actually the second longest vacation I've ever taken. It's like if you're gonna go across the world, you need to stay, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's how you and I met. I mean, I said earlier, I ducked into a restaurant to escape the heat, grabbed a drink. There was a pool table. One of my favorite things to do is to shoot pool. And you and your partner ended up joining us for a game, and the rest is history. It's crazy how the the internet and social media can keep people connected when we've only met in person that that one time. No, you know, like a couple of hours, right? And so beyond the fun, Bali itself does do something to you. The pace, the culture, the environment, it it slows you down and forces you to observe yourself. And for me, that became a mirror because I'm not someone who's slow, very fast, very type A, very go, go, go, like feel guilty when I don't do something on a Sunday afternoon. Right, right. Seeing how different things were, how different they they were there, the traditions, the culture that I never knew anything about, I would never have really known until you experience it. It reiterated to me how much we think we know and yet how much we don't know of what is happening all around us in other parts of the world. And so that trip reinforced something I already believed, but I'd not really fully practiced that growth doesn't just happen in a classroom or an office. It helps when you have the the courage and the faith to step out of your usual context and give yourself space to just calibrate. And I needed real space to figure out who I wanted to be next. And in that process, it led to a connection that we both treasure today. Yeah, absolutely. Man, that's that's really good. I, you know, to what you said, like just the educational piece, you know, really resonates to get out of the you know the classroom or you know, wherever you're at, to actually gain real experience, um, get outside that comfort zone that we all know of, but then at the same time slow down to actually analyze and embody and be aware of what what is really actually there and what you actually need. So that that uh self-awareness and then I don't know, what is the slowing uh what is it saying? I think um go slow to go fast or something like that. I might be butchering that for someone who's listening, but it's actually to your point, right? Like you're slowing down to go faster, and that's to figure out what you want to do in the future at that point. And then uh very much, yeah, we have a great, great friendship here that um has led us to this moment. Um on top of that, right, uh as you look at Bali, you know, you and your in your development and what you kind of got into now, um, very much when we met, and even now, you're very uh someone who you know is very introspective. Um and and you even talked about on offline, like you're very much someone who watches their own experiment, right? Kind of your movement in your world, as much as you know, moving through it at the same time. Speaking of that, when did you develop that capacity for like self-observation and what has that cost you and what has that given you um throughout your throughout your life? I think I started developing developing that capacity early in bits and pieces. Um growing up in a military family, you're always noticing. You're paying attention to how people respond, what dynamics are at play. And then in my early clinical work, observing patients was my job. So it became second nature to watch people and how they move. And you had to really notice those subtle changes to guide them effectively. I say, even today, when I see people walk, the first thing I look at is their posture. But self-observation as a leadership practice really deepened when I faced more complex challenges like opening a new hospital, leading a team of 85 people, or stepping into the CEO candidacy while also managing some pretty crazy personal transitions in my life in 2025 and 2026. And there is a cost to it, it takes energy, it's uncomfortable, and you see patterns in yourself that you might not like. Yes, that's a true right. But the gift is enormous, it gives you clarity, it helped me separate what I can control from what I can't, yep, and allowed me to respond more thoughtfully rather than reactively. It's the foundation that I also have for coaching. So when I can observe myself, which it's not easy to do, but when you can take the time to say, Hey, I'm willing to pull back the curtain and and see what am I doing? What are my patterns? Um, when I can observe myself better, I can help others see their patterns and take ownership of their growth because I'm going first. That capacity has shaped both the leader and the person that I am today. I truly believe that that work changed my life and how I see see life. Yeah. Life is. And then travel like my trip to Bali, and I also went to Ireland and I also went to Australia, accelerated this. Being out of my usual environment forced me to watch my own responses to new environments, new challenges. Yeah. Notice what I was carrying, and then say, how do I recalibrate? And at that point, and at this point, self-observation is how I move through the world, as uncomfortable as it is as it is sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Very much um clarity and fragmentation. Like clarity of like, it sounds like you get all this clutter out the way, got clear. But even then, the self-observation, almost like the mirror effect to your point, is like, okay, where are my fragmentations? Where, where am I failing, quote unquote, or my inefficiencies? Because we all have them. Like you said, when we want to look at what we're doing wrong, um, and being honest, right? Like, where are those those those de inefficiencies in my process? And then how do I get better, right? Being that exhibit A for my clients, which we'll we'll talk about on your coaching perspective and in just your um own field now. I was also curious too, kind of offline. Were you always, I guess, were you always open to traveling? Or is that yeah, I think I was because my my dad always talked about traveling. He came back to a small town in Louisiana where he met my mom, but yeah, he finished high school, he joined the military and just jetted off. He was, you know, in some really interesting places. Um sometimes when I look back at his photos, my favorite photo of him actually, which is gonna sound a little cryptic, but he's clearly in somewhere like a a the Amazonian rainforest or something, you know. And he's got he's holding two skull heads in his hands. And I just thought to myself, like, God, I wish I could know more about that story, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And he instilled in me from a very early age, get out and make your own way. And that just is that's how I grew up. So yeah, as soon as I could get out of Louisiana, I did. Yeah. And I was just curious, I, you know, you said get out of your norms. I'm like, hey, I wonder if like, were you always open to traveling or wanting to, you know, get out of your norm, right? Kind of see the world from a different perspective. So I was just curious. Yeah, I think just being from a and it's not really a small town anymore, but in my mind at the time, I felt like I was from a very small town and I just thought there's gotta be more to life than this, and I want to experience it. Didn't know how that was gonna happen. But I had there was just something in me that said I was gonna, I was gonna do it. I was gonna figure out how to do it. Yeah, absolutely. Well, speaking of your your career, right? A lot of people, you know, in high-achieving professional, you know, lives keep their external and their internal, internal separate, right? More like the career stays over there and the internal, internal work stays here, right? Very much separated. You know, you talked about really both these collapsing and really into one silo, um, these two things being one. Was that kind of a deliberate decision on your end, or did that just kind of happen naturally? I think it was a little bit of both, a natural tendency and then a conscious choice. Yes. I didn't set out to really collapse anything. It kind of just happened. I've always been the type of person who I noticed my surroundings, maybe much sometimes, maybe on high alert a lot. Um, again, growing up in a military family and around entrepreneurial parents who both worked for themselves, having very successful businesses in their lives. I was always watching and trying to figure out not just what people were doing, but why. I was like, why, why do you work for yourself? Why do you not work for a company? You know, so that habit of just paying attention kind of stuck. So when I got into leadership, I realized pretty quickly that you can't, I claim that you can't leave who you are at the door. When people say like leave yourself, and then when you go into work, I think you bring that person with you. So if I was distressed or distracted or not really present, it showed up despite me leaving it at the door, right? And it affected everything around me. So slowly, almost by necessity, my internal work and my external work started to live in the same space. Yeah. It's not perfect, sometimes it's very messy. I still catch myself reacting instead of responding or overthinking things I probably shouldn't. But over time, I've learned that when I bring my whole self, my curiosity, my reflection, just my humanity, you know, we're all together as human beings into the work, it does change things. And it changes how I lead day to day. It changes how people trust me or don't trust me. And I think just showing up authentically makes a difference. And I think everyone wants to do that, but I question do we actually do that? Yeah, yep. Theory, putting theory to actually reality. Um you said curious. I think that's been a a key factor throughout your whole process is being curious. Um, and I think too, with to your point about like, you know, workspace and you know, we hear like leave your emotions at emotions at the door, which I think is hard. I think that's it dismisses you as a human being because we are emotions, right? So I understand from the context perspective that you know work is work, but to your point, you bring it with you. Um we may try to mask or bottle it, but I think to your kind of paraphrasing, it's like when you slow down and give yourself the opportunity to breathe, to assess, um, you can kind of get those little moments of insight to readjust, recalibrate to what you're saying, kind of recalibrate to then move forward, whether it's a meeting or leading someone, you can kind of um not be reactionary, kind of more in a proactive seat. So um everything you said there was, like I said, once again, just just spot on. And you you talked about your coaching, because that's actually where I want to go next is um MBA certification and just to why, right? I think we we both resonate on human potential, human reasoning, why we do what we do, um, what what leads us there, right? So we're gonna dive into that and really this decision to go deeper. Um, so you talked about right earlier getting your MBA um in 2022, I think it was a year, um, and you got your onto ontological coaching. It always trips me up, but you got your coaching certification, right? Both during and coming out of COVID. Um, while honestly, most of I would say your career, most of the world was in stress and survival mode, that survival mode at that time. Um, you were actually building, right? Kind of going, they were zigging, you were zagging. Uh, what was what was driving that in that in that chaotic COVID, post-COVID moment? Yeah. Honestly, I'll say a lot of people thought I was a little crazy for signing up for both an MBA and finishing a coaching certification at the start and during COVID. Um, and maybe I was a little crazy, but for me, it wasn't about titles or credentials. It was about making sure that when the world demanded everything from me, especially being in healthcare, in an intensive care unit during that time, that I could actually show up fully. Like I didn't want to show up halfway. So COVID was an incredibly difficult time for everyone. But for healthcare workers, it was a whole different ball game. We were facing uncertainty, risk. Every time we went into a patient room, there was risk, there was exhaustion on a daily basis. I mean, you know, we all picked up extra shifts. And I knew that if I wanted to lead effectively, because I was leading a team at that time and not just surviving, which is what I did see a lot of people, you know, doing, which rightly said that that's we were just holding on. I needed tools for both the operational and the human sides of leadership. So the MBA gave me frameworks for the finance, the operations, the strategy, leading at a higher level. But the coaching certification was another kind of challenge. It was 15 months of deep self-reflection, pulling back the curtain, working through exercises that made me notice what assumptions do I have? What stories do I have? What habits do I have? Yep. How am I reacting on automatic? And it was humbling because you really have to see what are my automatics? And we all have them. It's not, you know, right or wrong, good or bad, but it's noticing what they are and deciding do they work for me or do they not work for me? And if they don't work for me, then I can change it. Yep. You have the power. One exercise during this, the coaching program that really stands out to me was I had to have a really difficult conversation with my boss at the time. And I had to actually document what my responses were in the moment. And I had to decide was the battle I was fighting worth it over my relationship with my boss. Like, do I want to be right or do I want to be happy? Right. Yes. And that moment crystallized the coaching principles for me. It's I just learned that awareness gives you choice. And then I could respond from fear or ego, or I could respond from presence and clarity. There's that word again, right? Yep. And I think it's all about that we have choices. It's just whether or not we see that we have those choices. So I didn't wait for the pandemic to be over. And I didn't wait for the timing to feel perfect because that was never going to happen. I trusted that investing in myself would allow me to be better, no matter how messy the world was. I could be my best self. And that combination of tools, the self-awareness, the hard-earned experience continues to shape how I make my day-to-day decisions and approach, you know, minute to minute, second to second. Yeah. You really did a whole, you know, uh scanning, if you will, of yourself, right? A whole self-analysis, self-awareness. Um and re-be, like you said, be right or be happy. I think that goes for a lot of relationships, uh, work environment, marital, uh, just all-type friendships, um, to get over that. And, you know, as you're speaking too, I'm like mentally seeing a fork in the road, right? I have the awareness, which is the important part, I'm on that path. And then I can go left or right of do I want to continue to do what I'm doing? Uh or do I want to essentially be better, for lack of better terms, and make a better conscious choice that's gonna help me not only in this moment, but going forward. Um, and then of course, as you know, continue to do that, not just one time. But that's that's very much the the path that it sounds like that was on, especially in that moment when you were documenting your responses, and you're in a high, high emotional octane moment with your boss, which no one likes to do. The air is probably super dry in the room. Uh no, that's that's real, real experience, right? So, for you know, those who are listening, this is a very good example of like where where this can be used and where it's been applied. Um, and you kind of actually took my took my next question because when I was gonna ask, you know, walking into your ontological coaching, I guess before that example, you kind of tell me or tell us, rather, you know, if you can kind of uh walk us through kind of what ontological coaching is. Um, because for most people um who have not encountered it, it can kind of sound academic academia kind of a big word, right? Like, what does this word meet mean? Um and for someone who's never, you know, been in a room where this framework has been applied, um, what is it actually doing that, you know, standard coaching or even like management training does not do? Yeah, a hundred percent. So ontological coaching, and funny, every time anyone looks at my resume or my LinkedIn profile, they always they're like, I had to Google it. Yeah, absolutely. Like, what is this? Yes. It's really just a fancy way of saying it helps people notice how they show up in the world. Yep. And it gives them the space and some tools to change it if they want to. So most coaching or management programs teach you what to do, the techniques, the frameworks. Ontological coaching asks something deeper. Who are you being when you do it? I'll let that land for a second. Yes. It's really about helping people notice how they think, how they are feeling, and then how they're reacting. And then deciding, does that work for me or does it not work for me? If it doesn't, then I can choose to think or feel or react in a different way. So I'll give you an example. A leader might think they're being calm and encouraging in a meeting. Right. Their tone or their body posture is communicating something very different, but they don't see it. Ontological coaching helps you see yourself. I like to say, like, you're in the fishbowl, and then we pull you out of the fishbowl and you see the water you've been living in. You're like, oh, do I want to live in that water or do I want to clean the fishbowl and put some new water in there? Right. So it gives you that choice. So the exercises that we went through during that 15-month program were designed to make you notice your own patterns in real time and then experimenting with new ways of responding. Because it's never about what you're doing is wrong. It's whether or not you feel it's working for you. Is it getting you what you want? So that's how I approached the difficult conversation with my boss during COVID was how am I how am I showing up? Like actually, what does my body look like in this conversation? Am I coming out, you know, like guns ablazing or am I, you know, because that makes a difference. And so right, yeah. Do I have RBF, right? And then really mastering the pause because that can just that can shift things in an instant. And then going through my Rolodex of different responses, choosing the one that aligns with my values rather than my fear. And that was the difference. It didn't just teach me skills, it taught me how to become a person who just can make different decisions. Um, it definitely builds relationships much, much stronger. And you lead with presence. So you lead with how you are showing up. You have a physical body, and we forget about that, right? We're always in our head, but kind of coming down a level and just getting into your body, it's powerful. Yes. And I use these principles in my one-on-ones with my employees. I want to help them notice how they're showing up, helping them see like what is your sort of automatic, remote, you know, day-to-day. And then it's a strategic questioning methodology. So it doesn't give them the answer, it gives them questions that then they think through, answers come out of them from that. And there's been some research done with this type of methodology where accountability increases, conflicts are resolved faster. And really, I think at ground level, you the trust grows. Because when you trust someone, you're more likely to engage and you know, be willing to have the the back and forth. It's not so so at its core, it's it's not about being perfect, it's not about following a checklist. It's about being a better observer of yourself. And then once you see taking responsibility for your impact and then making the a different Choice that aligns with whatever outcome that you want. Yep, that's a good way to put a bow on it right there. For those who are listening, that's the that's the perfect way. And it's important too. I think you said it automatic. I think so many of us, I mean, myself included, at moments we operate automatically without even thinking, right? And it's that moment of like, okay, I can use this, apply this method method method method. I can't even say the word I'm stumbling on methodology. Methodology to use this and really just once again pause. Pause and figure out is this working for me to your point or is this not working for me? And you have that autonomy, that self right authorship, if you will, to actually make that choice. And then from that, having that self-stability to continue to do that. Like that was as you were speaking, was the beautiful thing behind all of that. It's like you have the choice and you can change it. Yes. Um and here's this framework, right, of operating within it day to day. And as I kind of move to my next question, because you you briefly touched on it, um, you you apply it to your staff, right? You're one-on-ones with your staff for accountability and behavior. Um this question may sound like a very interviewe uh job interview question, right? But if you can, if you can give me a moment, you know, a specific, maybe conversation, uh, if you will, where you used it. Um, and something that genuinely moved um that would have not been moved through a traditional, you know, management or coaching approach. Yeah, I run into this a lot, actually. So one that sticks out happened with one of the therapists on my on my team. They were highly capable, you know, type A got things done, um, you know, star player really. Uh, but there was tension with them and some other people on the team. And that caused them to withhold information, which then was causing some delays in patient care. And so, in a traditional management approach, I might have given feedback, I might have reinforced expectations of the job and hoped that that was enough. But in a coaching conversation, I approached it differently. I asked this person questions to help them see what their behavior was doing with other people on the team, like how his their reactions and their choices were affecting the other people, and not in a judgmental way, but pointing out what was actually happening and saying, What was your intention here? And does it match how you wanted to show up? And if it doesn't, then let's talk about that because maybe you just need to shift what you're doing to show up differently, and then you get you get that different outcome. So we explored how that person was feeling. So we kind of dove into some emotional pieces, which no one really likes to talk about, but it does drive behavior, right? It can open or close doors completely. And then based on the door that you have available to you, that's gonna influence, you know, which door you walk through. You only have one door available versus two, you walk through the one. If you had two, then you could choose which one you wanted to walk through. So it wasn't a lecture. I I didn't make it about, you know, it's good to reinforce expectations, but I felt like that wasn't really gonna work with this person. This person knows what their job is. It was a conversation where they could notice themselves in the moment and decide do I keep reacting out of habit? Do I need to be right here? Is that what my goal is? Or do I want to change what I'm doing to see if that works better? And by the end of the conversation, they did adjust how they were showing up and took ownership and actually started to mentor some of their peers and built the trust and then they created their own workflow. I didn't have to give them that answer. And then the delay in patient care, you know, it it went away. Right, right. Magically went away. Magically went away. And you know, I I just got through doing 40 performance interviews or performance reviews, sorry, not interviews. Um and it's it's taxing, but in those, I made sure to create a goal with each person on getting them to be able to learn and embody how to notice themselves in a in a given moment. Um, so that when they run up against a situation, they don't knock on my door and say, I need help solving this problem. I'll be like, okay, let's talk about what you did, how you're feeling about it, what's the story you have about it. Do we need to shift any of that? Is that gonna make a difference? And then do you see it differently now? And they walk away with their own answer. I really don't have to do a whole lot. I know, I'm blapping my head, right? Because I'm at a therapy and you you mentioned a therapist on your staff, and it's the questions are very open-ended, right? The client, or I guess in this instance, right? You're uh the therapist on staff is gonna get themselves to that end result, right? You're gonna and you mentioned it earlier, you briefly touched on touched on it, but like they're gonna naturally discover, identify, right? Pinpoint what is the reality to your point? Like, do you wanna is this an alignment or is it not? And you're not really saying forcing, but you're kind of this invisible hand guiding them to see what is actually here now, what is the presence that you're showing up in this moment? Yeah. Um, and do you want to change it? Yeah, right? You do you want to change it? And in that instance, that's a great example. Uh that you should appreciate that. And for those who are are are listening, of you know, that's exactly what happened, right? That's who, what, when, where, how are you feeling? What's this causing, right? All these open-ended questions to have them actually navigate that whole process and bring the real emotions to the surface, right? Yeah. We're gonna have that, um, no matter where you go to. But to your point, having that honor, honest conversation that most people don't want to have, whether it's superior or not, right, in kind of that hierarchy of of your work environment, um, it's valuable, man, and it's it's needed. So I commend you for doing the work you're doing in and that example as well of like leading people to see a better outcome. Well, I will say that um there's a caveat to it because people have to give you permission to do this with them. Yes. So if you don't have a good relationship or you haven't built the trust or taken the time to build the trust and they don't give you permission, you're not really gonna get very far. So it it's just it's all very relational at the end of the day. I mean, I kind of think of almost every problem that I run into on a day-to-day basis at work, it stems from a real it's a relational thing. Yep. Yep, very much so. Yeah. Speaking of just your, your, your uh model, right? The ontological model and and really what neuroscience and performance psychology are showing us about how actually people actually change, um, they're they're saying very similar things, just from like very different, you know, uh vantage points, right? When did that, I guess, when did you discover rather that convergence and what did it do for how you um, I guess what did it do for you and how you held the work? Yeah, so when I started to learn about ontological coaching and this whole methodology, what was fascinating to me was it's a simple little construct of three circles. And that's called your way of being. So everyone has that, right? So one circle is language, that's the words that we use, that's the stories we tell ourselves. We are interpretive beings. So what are we saying this means to us? The other one is an emotion is emotions, which we can't get away from just that we want to, because they do drive our behavior. And then the third circle is our body, which again, we just we don't pay enough attention to it, I think, in society. True at all. And so those three things make up you. Those three things about me make up me. And so that is how we end up like the driving of the behavior. And then that gets you the results, positive or negative. Yep. And I think that that's been echoed by neuroscience, performance psychology, but from a different direction. So, neuroscience, in essence, says our brains literally wire habits and responses, and we can rewire our brains, right, through practice, repetition, things like that. Performance psychology says your mindset and deliberate practice shape your performance. What I'll say is I think coaching says your way of being, those three things in the world is what drives your actions. And you have the choice to shift one or two or all three. You only have to shift one for the whole thing to morph into something else. Right. So I saw that play out when I was helping open the rehab hospital. Um, and it was completely new territory for everyone, including me. I'd never done that before. There was fear of failure. There was there was some ambiguity about every decision. Did we all align on every decision? No, right? Um, and there was this constant need for flexibility. So using the coaching lens, I didn't just focus on the tasks that had to be done or getting things checked off the list that needed to be done. I focused on how I was showing up with everyone around me. And these were all new relationships, and I wanted those relationships to thrive. So that was important. And I think that approach is what made the difference. Even under pressure, I was able to be nimble, right? Adapt quickly, um, make decisions that aligned with the values of the company and be able to support the team, not only mine, but also the leadership team in a just in a more grounded way. And so when you shift the inside, the internal patterns, the external results have to follow. It's just that's how it happens. And it gave me confidence to hold the work differently. So I was able to really say, I want to invest into my team and in doing this. My like pie in the sky goal is to bring this to healthcare. I don't know how to do it yet, but that's my pie in the sky goal because I just believe that it can change how we operate. And not that what we're doing is wrong, but there's still things say, like this isn't working, or we still get stuck here. And, you know, like I was saying about the the surveys that happen, the patient satisfaction, I'm sorry, employee satisfaction surveys that we get every year. Communication's always at the top of the list, no matter all the things that human resources you know does to try to help and support that, it's still always there. And I think we're trying to look at external things to shift it when we really need to be looking internally. Exactly. Exactly. I I'll be the first. I don't think this monica is pie in the sky. I really don't. I know if someone's listening, I they might, you know, raise their hand too while they're listening or driving to this. But I agree. I think, you know, to your point, it's not that that it's wrong. It's just there's always a better way to do it, right? There's four ways to get downtown, right? This is another way to do it more effectively at a higher level. Um, and it's proven. So it's like, you know, why not, you know, try to do something a little bit different to get a better result or better, better out output. I I also want to touch really on what you said before that, too, because I think it sounds like, you know, my in my mind, I'm kind of painting this picture of this two-way highway that's kind of a loop in a sense of you wanted this culture, right? These values, um, relationships, all these kind of keywords you're talking about. But as much as you were focusing on yourself, you're very much focused on the the parts, the people, the processes, the systems, and and this interchangeable uh two-way highway in my mind is like those two things needed to be together. They weren't separate to excel and to have a great foundation of of people and work and uh efficiency. So very much it sounds like there is this once again self-awareness, going back to that and the observation of like I need to show up right better and use this this this um this system to then also help people as well um to actually live it and and actually embody it. So like I said, once again, kudos kudos to you of um doing it and doing the work, right? Doing the work that daily Yeah, daily, yeah, whether you wanted to or not. Uh in reality. Quick pause here. If what Monica just shared about ontological coaching and looking at how we actually show up in our language, emotions, and body is hitting home, you don't have to just listen to it. You can work with her. Whether you're a leader trying to untangle a complex transition or just ready to invest in how you lead yourself, go to the link in the show notes, reach out to Monica directly and mention code LifeISPOT 10. Stop waiting for circumstances to be perfect. Go start that conversation. So speaking of the work, right, we're gonna kind of kind of turn the table here and actually talk about your the CEO, right? The CEO program and stepping into that capacity, that room. Um, because yeah, you talked earlier when we got on. You're you're in that uh you're in that path, right? And very much deserve it just from as we've talked and just your experience, honestly. I mean, you you've you've done it, right? If anyone's gonna look at your record, you've done it. It's it's not even a question. Um, it's just a matter about when and where you fit best. But but speaking of that CEO program, development, um, developmental program, um, if you can kind of tell us more about that, you know, how how does it work? You know, how did you end up in it and what the experience of being inside it has actually been like? Yeah, so the company that I work for now has a CEO and training program. It is an executive level stretch program, essentially, embedded into your day-to-day work. So you continue leading your current responsibilities while also tackling different strategic projects, some cross-functional decision making, um, and being able to be a part of the operations exposure at a senior level. And it's the kind of work you usually only see once you're actually a CEO. So it's immersive and very high stakes. I joined because I realized that if I wanted to step into the CEO role, which I wasn't sure I wanted a couple of weeks ago, but it's morphed into that, that I had to give myself permission to do it. I had to raise my hand and say, I'm ready for this and hold that internally, even when the world didn't fully validate it. So I had to take, you know, I had to like have courage and trust in myself that I could do it. And my current role gave me that opportunity. So my boss and current CEO, he's been so supportive since my original interview when I expressed interest and he helped me get into the program. I've now completed it and I'm I'm forever grateful to him. Inside the program, there are a couple of challenges that really stick out. One is showing up, embodying yourself as a CEO in front of your peers. Yeah. And that has not been easy. Like you'd think just because you're in the program that everyone should just see you as this. But no, you have to show up that way. You almost have to create that experience with other people for them to believe you, right? So leading with authority, leading with confidence, leading with clarity, even when it feels new and vulnerable. And the other is participating in something we call the operations call, where excuses don't exist. You own everything. You talk openly about what's going well, and you highlight the things that aren't going well. And that transparency can be really intimidating. You get questions. Yes. And you can't behind you can't hide behind hierarchy or ambiguity. They will call you out. You have to confront the good, the bad, and the messy. So yeah. That's like the boiler room. You're in it. It's so funny you say that because actually one of my peers said that. He's like, Man, it's hot in here. Yeah. My camera's not working. Give me a second. Right. So those moments are intense, they're humbling and sometimes very uncomfortable, but they're exactly what make the experience transformational. It's not just about acquiring skills, it's about becoming the leader you need to be, integrating all of your knowledge and all of that to show up as a CEO. So every day reinforces that the growth is messy, it's internal, it's ongoing. And to me, that is what truly prepares you for the CEO seat. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a couple of thoughts I want to share, if I can keep them all in line. But one is self-image. Like to your point, you really have to um kind of use a sub somewhat of a cybernetic, change your cybernetic set point to become that CEO. Like, you know, you you have to see it before anyone else, you know, externally, um, you know, showing up in that moment. And, you know, I laugh too because you said all the things you have to do and all the stress, but I don't see no gray hairs, right? Your hair is so fabulous. So I don't think from all the stress um that you know that you had to go through. And then um, yeah, like you said, just just showing up, um repeatedly showing up to to morph into that person um without you know um going back, going back in that direction. So thank you for that for that explanation as well, to to show really kind of what that whole process, that whole gamut looks like, um, when you're actually in it to become that you know CEO um every day. And and speaking too of you even said it, speaking of having the courage to raise your hand, um, that takes a lot of boldness, right? A lot of confidence in yourself, even like you said, even when maybe the external world may not feel like it, whether that's your own, um, to step in that, to step, set, step into that seat. Um, and I think too, most people think they want to be a CEO, they may say it inside, but they don't actually like, hey, I want to, I want to do this. And you you've done that. What made what I guess my question there for you there is like, what made you really, I guess, ready to say it out loud and step into that? So for a long time, I assumed that leadership advancement was something that was handed to you. You've heard of the Peter principle, right? I have not. Can you uh um share? Essentially, people who get promoted into positions, but they don't really have the experience or the skills to be in it. Okay. I don't know. Sometimes you still get promoted. Yes, yes, yes. Like I hear what you're saying now. Yes, that happens all the time. So it does, it does. Um, but so for me, I thought someone had to tap you on the shoulder and say, you're ready. Yes. And I realized the only way to step into bigger responsibility was to give myself permission first. That no one could do it for me. And no one was just no one was gonna walk into my office and say, We're ready to give you a CEO job, right? So part of what helped me um get there was the personal development work that I had that I had done. So some of that was the ontological coaching. And another piece, um, I'm gonna call out a a dear friend of mine who created this sort of personal development work called the break method. Um, her name is Busy Gold. Um, she's brilliant and so innovative. But she guides people through something called a brain pattern mapping, which totally intrigued me. I was like, ooh, I don't know what my brain pattern is. Yes. And so I went through it and I did the pattern mapping, and then I went through some of the work that she has created and I learned something really eye-opening about myself that my brain pattern is rooted in instincts for safety and control. Go figure. Mm-hmm. And you're like, oh, that sounds bad, right? But that pattern gives me a strong capacity for self-trust. Yes. Some brain patterns have a sort of a negative self-trust, but I actually have a very high, sometimes potentially too high self-trust where I'm just like, I'm gonna jump off the bridge and I'm I'm gonna link. So um, but I think that's essential in making decisions in amb ambiguous high-stakes situations, which ultimately I think CEO has to do every day. Yep. Um, but it also means that I sometimes push forward even when I should pause and recalibrate. So that that's what I've been learning over the last you know, eight years is sometimes you just gotta pause. Like and embrace the pause. Um and this insight didn't come from a leadership book, even though I've read a ton of them. It came from mapping the internal architecture of my behavior. So, like, what are my automatics? Where do I do where do I naturally tend to go first in conflict? Um, you know, what emotion comes up first when I feel triggered, like those kinds of things. And it's different for everybody. They're similar across the board because we're all you know human beings, but they're different for everyone. And so that work I felt integrated very seamlessly with the ontological coaching training. And so together, I think those gave me the confidence to name my ambition out loud. I believe in the power of declaring things. So I I want to be, no, I am going to be a CEO, right? Yes. I love that. When I interviewed for my current role, I actually discussed the possibility of pursuing this track with my CEO. You know, he asked me, where do you want to be in, you know, three, three to five years. And before I could even think about it, it just came out of my mouth. I was like, I I'm I want your job. And he was like, I can help you get there. Okay. That conversation was an act of self-permission in itself, saying, I see this path, I'm willing to step into it. And here I am. Yeah. I love there's a lot of undercurrent, a lot of under the surface building, right? As you've just really explained to us of like building up to that moment, identifying, like you said, triggers, habits, automatics, where you run to out of whether it's, you know, conflict or success. Um, and having almost like those tools, right? Uh accessible, you know, ready for yourself, and then saying, hey, I'm I'm stepping into this. I'm going to use my superpowers, right, if you will, um, to become the person, the woman that I want to be in this role in this, in this, in this field. And also along that, too, I think you named it earlier, but I think it's it's it's great that you're naming, or maybe you're okay and accepting the messiness of what it takes to get there. That's something I want to highlight. Because I feel like so many of us, and maybe those who are listening, you want to become a CEO or uh, it doesn't matter, maybe just any type of position. We want to be polished, right? Of course, and get there perfectly untouched. But like to your point, it's messy, right? That that boiler room call, it's like you're every day or whatever that is, and just you every day getting real world education, um, not just through leadership books, like you said, you're getting this real world experience. It's it's messy. Um and you're able to balance, if you will, this gray area while also assessing yourself. Um, it's it's not perfect. I guess maybe we could sum that up is what I'm getting at. It's not perfect, but it's it's a continual progression of refining a system to an end goal. So that's that's just a great um experience that you're having and that you're able to share with how you how you were boldly to raise your hand that I am gonna become a CEO. So awesome. Speaking of that development program, you you said I think it runs maybe five to six months, or uh you're still in it now. Um, we finished April 1st. Oh, so you perfect. So you just finished, perfect. Um I guess what what what has that maybe experienced maybe acquired of required of you internally? Um, not maybe just in terms of like time and workload, but in terms of like maybe who had you had could you who you had become to complete it, which once again you kind of touched on a little bit, but maybe from a different perspective. Yeah, so honestly, this program has been a full-on stretch. I just had a conversation with my boss yester yesterday. Um he was like, I get that this was a lot for you because I was less visible to my team. So, you know, just man time management was was um was in and of itself a stretch, but not just in the work that that you're doing, but in who you have to be while doing it. So we kind of highlighted that a little bit. You know, I'm leading my team. I actually lead two departments, an inpatient department and an outpatient department. Correct. Managing the day-to-day operations, you know, making sure that we're financially in the in the black. Um, there's always a fire to put out when you're dealing with, you know, human beings every day. Um, and then also stepping into these CEO level assignments that we were given really forced me to show up differently every single day. Um, some days I knocked it out of the park, and other days I went home and said, I'll do that better tomorrow. Right, right. Um, and I'll say it again, the moment I think that that hit hardest for me was being in those operations calls where they there's just zero room for excuses. You have to name the good, the bad, the messy, and be okay sitting in that tension. And that's you know, speaking of it being hot, like heat refines you, right? Mm-hmm. That's one piece. And then showing up as a CEO in front of your peers, which no, it's the 80-20 rule. 80% you're gonna have in your back pocket. The other 20% are gonna want you to eat dirt. It's a vulnerable place. Like you just you don't win everybody. Right. Um, it's intimidating and it really pushes you to lead. Like, I just really had to to get back into that embodiment piece of being in my body, even how I walk down the hallway. How am I walking down the hallway? Um, what does that say about me? Because perception is reality. I think it can be shifted, but in our in our world, it it is, right? So something just have to be mindful of and know that you do have some control over that. Um, internally, it was regulating myself, um, you know, making those conscious choices every day. How do I want to show up today? Um, but honestly, there's still moments that that I feel stretched to the limits. Yeah. And that's exactly the point, right? The the program wasn't just teaching me new skills, it was transforming the me who could hold that kind of responsibility. Yeah. Very deliberate is what I get. Very deliberate, very tactical, but also honest, right? Just showing up like I'm I'm me. I'm I'm you're very ready, right? Like, hey, I'm coming at this. Um, I don't know, maybe convicted or just prepared, but very much um, you know, I'm you know learning throughout the process, right? I'm gonna learn and do the best I can today while being present. Yeah. As you said. Um speaking of it, you ended April 1st. I don't know if you're able to share what's what's kind of the next move, right? This is me just being curious. What's the next move? What's the what's the next, you know, for Monica? So I I actually applied for a position within my company and I went through round one of interviews that went really, really well. Yes. Uh got some great feedback from people higher up. Um, but I'm in a holding pattern for round two. I don't know what round two is going to look like. I don't even know if round two is going to happen because there, there's some competition out there. There's people who are in CEOs that are probably wanting the role that I'm applying for. So I'm just using it as I'm staying positive, you know, I'm gonna keep the faith, but I'm also just using it as a I'm I'm going to almost like a practice, right? Like I'm gonna practice using it. So I had the practice of interviewing for this position. And it was so funny because the man that I interviewed with, um, we talked for about 50 minutes and a couple comments he made that I just I thought it was really funny. The first one he said was, I don't normally talk for this long in these interviews. So I thought that was a win. Yeah, absolutely. Interesting. And then the second thing he said was, You're better in person than on paper. And I was like, huh. I like, I like that. You know, like let me mouth you in person, but it also was like maybe I should look at my resume. No, that it's showing what I'm capable of when I when I was looking at it. But no, it's that's that's that's uh that's good. It well it tells you hey, you obviously can articulate what you've done really well. And you know, verbally it sounds obviously a lot better on paper. So I guess. I do want the position very, very, very much. Oh, yes. Yeah, I'm gonna second that. So let's let's get on that uh that process. And I appreciate that because I was honestly just curious, like, hey, what's what's kind of going on next? Um speaking speaking of that process, right? When you kind of sit where you're at right now, right, on the edge of, you know, call it one of the biggest professional steps of your career of getting to that that mountain that you want to um climb and accomplish, and you will, what does that feel like from the inside, right? Maybe not the polished version, but just like kind of human-to-human, kind of the real version of like, what does that feel like to be on the cusp of like, hey, this this can and soon eventually will be a reality? Yeah. Yeah, it's not a matter of if, it's when. Yeah, it's when. I'll I'll speak that. Sitting on the edge of this feels intense. It's a mix of pride, just I'm proud of myself, you know, uh, excitement, and maybe a little bit of terror. Like part of me wants to control every outcome, make everything perfect, manage all the variables. It's just how I'm wired. And then there's this other part that knows this is it's this is just about the journey and that I'm stepping into a version of myself that I haven't fully occupied yet. I am excited. Um it's exciting to see how far I've come, um, the things that I've been able to do in my career. I'm very grateful for um the people that have helped me. Um, I will speak of one boss who I just adore and to this day, she's always someone who I speak about. Um her, I she was my boss when I worked at Pfizer. And people always say, like, you worked for Pfizer? I'm like, Yeah, the actual Pfizer, the pharmaceutical company. Yes, I did. Um, I started out as a physical therapist. They had a brilliant model of um a gym in the building. And so their employees, when they needed therapy, they didn't have to leave work, take time. They just had to go downstairs to the gym. And then we we did all the things. So I just thought that was a brilliant model, like, you know, saving time too. But the when I went into the the business side of it, I tell this story because I I was a physical therapist and then I applied for a communications, a medical communications manager position. I did not have a degree in communications. I had not worked in a business setting. I was a clinician. Right, right. But I had heard that they liked to promote from within. So I was like, I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring. And I interviewed with this woman, her name is Vera. Love you, Vera, if you're watching this. Um, a staple in my in my life. Um when after we went through the interview, I remember her telling me, she was like, You, you know, you did really well. I enjoyed your answers. Um and I think the only reason that I got the job, because there were like 12 other candidates that had portfolios, you know, was because I wanted it the most. And that shone through. That was that was the you know, shining through all of my responses to her questions. She was like, This girl is hungry and she's gonna do a good job. Yep. And that's kind of how I feel about this. Like, I've never done it before. I've seen it done, I've experienced pieces and you know, parts and pieces of it, but but I want it. So Right. And they they feel it. Yeah, they do feel it. So once again, we're we're uh we're just broadcasting, just so you guys are listening. This is this is it. Right. This is just coming. But that's honestly, I think that's what's gonna a great separator. You know, all jokes aside, I think the the experience with the knowledge and then the passion to be great, the passion to f solve the issue and then be driven behind it is like I think anyone who's on the other seat, right, listening to you or interviewing, right, they can respect that, they can honor that. And then to your point, they they want someone in that position because you care and you're gonna get it done, or find a way to get it done. Right, you said be resourceful when you have less and need to do more. Right. Yeah, you'll find a way. Sharpen through that, yeah. Yeah, find a way. Before we get back to the conversation, Monica spent over a decade building in healthcare, navigating massive professional pivots, and doing the deep internal work. She is currently putting that entire blueprint into a book. And while it isn't fully released yet, she's opening a way for this community to get an early look. If you want to read the advanced chapters and help shape the conversation before it drops, go to the link in the show notes right now. Connect with Monica, tell her you heard her here, and get your name on the list for an early preview copy. Don't weigh on this one. Real talk. How many times have you seen exactly where you want to go? Clearly, and then talk yourself out of it before you even start it. How many times have you committed to something, felt that initial surge of energy, and then watch yourself quietly sabotage it two weeks later? And how many times have you asked yourself why can't I just trust myself to do the thing I already know I'm capable of? I've been there. And I've worked with enough people to know this isn't a discipline problem. It's a coherence problem. Your nervous system is interpreting growth as threat. Your identity is still tied to old versions of yourself. Your beliefs are running on outdated code. And no amount of willpower fixes that. That's why I built the coherence performance method. A seven-module program rooted in neuroscience, system thinking, and real-world application. You'll learn how to regulate your nervous system so change feels safe, not scary, how to build stable identity that doesn't collapse when things get hard, how to reprogram limiting beliefs with evidence, not just positive thinking, how to make decisions from internal authority instead of external validation. This isn't theory, it's practice, self-awareness, self-trust, self-leadership, self-authorship. That's the arc. If you're tired of cycling back to the same patterns, if you're ready to finally trust yourself the way you've been wanting to, go to the show notes and join the program. The coherence performance method. Let's do this work together. Um so as we as we move forward here, right, where I want to talk really about right, you carrying a real real weight, right? I asked you kind of give us the real version to my last questions. Kind of really your real version of your resilience in your own personal architecture of life, um, and what you're kind of going through as you're stepping through that leadership. Um I know currently you said you're you're kind of navigating a personal season right now, right? Transitioning living, um, significantly daily commute to work that you talked about offline. Um, active litigation, which you don't have to talk about, but just more personal stuff, right? While also being in the final stretch, right? Now we're kind of waiting this limbo period of round two for a CEO candidate candidacy. Uh most people, as you said, would say this is too much, right? Especially all at once. There's a lot, right? You can hold a lot, right? People have high pain tolerance, you have a high busyness tolerance, if you will. What is that, what is actually keeping you grounded like through all of it? Yeah. So yeah, honestly, this past year has been has been like walking on cool fire, walking on fire. Um, I've had to move several times due to things completely out of my control. Um I am not someone who shows up as a victim in this life. So, you know, it's sometimes just saying, I don't like the choices in front of me, but I have choice. So which one might which which choice is the best of the worst situation, you know, choices available to me. Um I think what keeps me grounded is noticing that I do have control. We we forget, you know, we we can even talk about things like our standards or you know, like we create those and then we forget that if like if they get moved, we we've moved them. Yeah, like we were the ones. Yeah, we're the end. So, you know, oh I can't reach that. Well, well, you put it there so you can and you can move it again. Um, and then being in this season of letting go of what I cannot control. My friend Busy says she says it perfectly. She's like, controlled surrender. It is not easy. That's what I've been sitting in is controlled surrender. Um I lean on routines as much as possible and little small anchors. So I, you know, get up and put my feet on the grass and do some grounding. Yes. Um I take my puppy outside, you know, her and I ground together. Um, I am I just hired a personal trainer to me get into just a routine of exercise. So I think moving is the key, you know. It just movement and then connecting with people that I trust. Um, community has become so important to me just in the last decade, but definitely in the last couple of years, when you have your small circle of people that have you no matter what, it truly makes a difference. Um, so it's not about making the chaos disappear because the chaos is here and I'm moving through it and I'm gonna be fine on the other end of it. Um, it's about holding space for it without letting it define me. Mm-hmm. And that's what keeps me moving forward. I was telling a friend just this morning, I'm like, there's a lot of darts being thrown. Yes, but I'm catching as many as I can. Um, and the ones that I don't catch, I'm just you know, let them fly by. Maybe they'll come back around. I don't know. Um, and then I think the biggest thing for me is my faith. Um I've been um a Christian my whole life, and it took me getting into adulthood where life got really messy. Right, life was lifey. Life was life. Um I just finished that book, and well, I at the very end, her book is called Life is Lifey, and I'm like, oh my god, that's perfect. That's perfect. It just sums it all up, right? Um and just knowing that that God can see what's on the other side of this, even if I can't see it, and trusting it's not a cliff. There is a road, um, even though I can't see the road, and I'm just uh having faith that um, you know, when I get there, it's gonna make sense. Um just having that internal peace. I don't think I've had peace a lot in my life and something I've cultivated over the years, but it's it helps. Yeah. Once again, like thanks for thanks for sharing too, once again. I I think once again, right, hearing your words is very much you have these systems in place. I think naturally, I don't know how maybe once again, right? Going how you're wired, you naturally have these systems. Um, where that's like you said, walking your dog, friends, you have all these outlets to help you through these moments, right? It's not that the chaos is going away. And I think that's an important thing that I have to learn too as an adult, um, is you can walk through chaos. Like you can still be safe in chaos, which sounds like complete opposites, right? It doesn't make sense, but you can, right? And I think we have to learn as adults to do that because you have these systems in place. As you said, I think the coin word you said maybe controlled controlled surrender. Yeah, control surrender. Yeah, that's I can't take credit for it, but it it resonates so deeply. Yes, right. So that's like one piece. You have your systems and then also your faith. So it's like once again, you have all these things that are helping you get through this personal, right, architecture of your life through different seasons that we will experience, um, whether it's personal life, relationships. Um, I just want to, I guess, point that out that you you've I think naturally put things in place to help you. I try. My word for 2026 is discernment. I want to be a better discerner. I don't know if that's a word, but I think we have that in we have that in us, right? That that internal knowing that we sometimes don't listen to. Yep. But there's this book, The Body Keeps the Score. Your body knows, your body will tell you, and we should pay more attention to it. We don't, right? But we we we let our brains kind of go crazy, but um, your body will tell you, and we all have that inside of us. So that's my word for 2026 discernment. Discernment. Speaking of uh books, my my therapist, right? She's a big reader. I need to get that book because that's like the third time I've heard it. Your body keeps the score. She's mentioned it, she throws books at me all the time, like the doctor talking about. I'm like, get a few of them, not all of them, but that's probably the one that now that you say that I should probably get because it's real. I think um, yeah, we don't, we don't um we don't pay attention to our bodies. We suppress it, we dismiss it, we neglect it, and then we wonder why to your point, like you created this, so you can change it, you can you can move it. Um speaking of discernment, that's actually where I wanted to go next, right? We you you've talked about discernment, just obviously now, but also offline in acceptance, right? As like a paired tools, right? Not opposites, but like compliments. They're they're not antagonists, right? They're they're together. What did you have to learn about you know acceptance specifically that changed how you've moved through hard seasons? Yeah, acceptance has been one of the biggest lessons for me, more so this past year, but my instinct is to always fix or control or push through. From an ontological perspective, acceptance isn't giving up, it isn't giving in, it isn't saying what happened is okay. It's seeing reality clearly as it is, noticing the boundaries of what I can and cannot change, and then deciding intentionally how to act from that point. Um in ontological coaching, there is something called the moods of life chart. It sits in that emotion circle. And acceptance is one of the moods that we can live in that is the opposite of resentment. And I think we have all had, you know, times in our lives, weeks, months, maybe even years of living in resentment over one thing or another. And so what ontology has taught me is you have to physically put your body in position for the mood that you want. So for the mood of acceptance, it's even keeled breathing. Yes. It's putting your feet, it's making them grounded, like put your feet down on the ground, not let them hang, right? Um it's having your body be loose versus tense, so like just loosening your elbows, loosening your knees, and softening your eyes, but still being alert. And I know that's a little technical. I wasn't sure if I was gonna kind of go into all that, but it's those little pieces where you know, if you if you had time to do an exercise, get into a really tense posture where you're forward, you're clenched and you're you're you breathe really shallow and notice how what that does for you, and then relax, ground yourself, open. Your body and just notice how that feels and what comes to you in that posture versus the other one. Yep. Did that in our coaching program. We actually went through all the different uh emotions and the body postures, stepping into one and then stepping into another one. It's powerful. Um it sounds silly, but like as simple as what you just explained is like studied as proven, right? Like there's changes, right? Physiology in your body. Um, I think there's a key word, I don't know the abbreviation, like HRV. So like heart rate. Oh, yeah, yeah. But even but even things like that, like what you're explaining is like it works. And just yeah, your body posture. I think those are all things we forget. So as you were identifying, I I even adjusted my shoulders, like I said. Let me make sure I'm uh I'm a little loose where I'm sitting. But um, yeah, being you know, going back to like just mindfulness, right? Being mindful of like all of those um parts in your body is like it's uh it's vital. It's vital to to have that change that you're looking for. So yeah, great definitions too, great definitions of of acceptance. Um, I think um, yeah, people feel like it's a weakness, so you give up, but that's far from the case uh when you're talking about acceptance and what you explain. So very, very much true. Um I want to talk about right, your your significant really kind of transition, really your career. Uh has had a significant uh career transition, right, from new institutions, right, new cities, uh new versions of your professional identity. Um what has you know that accumulated experience of you know letting go and rebuilding, right, kind of taught you about who you actually are underneath, you know, all of it? Yeah, I've definitely I've lived in eight different states across the United States, uh, which might seem a little bit nuts. Um, but what I've what I bring to the table from that is I have worked in eight different states. I've worked in hospitals in eight different states and seen what works and what doesn't and different cultures and different perspectives. I haven't had, you know, one job where I've been there for 15 years and only been around the same people. I've experienced lots of versions of people. Um so I I say that in interviews too, because I think that's that's a that's a difference that I can bring to the table of a just a different perspective that's that a lot of people don't have. Some do. Um but one thing I've learned through all of it is that underneath all of the chaos, all the changes, all the differing of opinions and things, I stay the same. So the titles, the roles, the stress, the unpredictability, that's gonna come and go. But what stays constant is my curiosity. I think that's a powerful thing to have when you are curious. I'll go back to that moods of life chart. Yes. Uh the the end, the there's there's six of them, and the two that are on the end, the bottom one is anxiety, which we all have. And then the opposite emotion of that is called a mood of wonder. And the way to get there is through curiosity. Like instead of saying, I don't know what's behind that bush, it might be a snake, you say, hmm, I wonder what's on the other side of that bush, even though it might be scary. Maybe what's on the other side of that bush is not a snake, but something that's gonna be amazing for me. And if I never look, if I'm never curious about what's on the other side of that bush, then I might miss out on something really awesome. Easy. Not easy. Anxiety is one of the, I think, one of the most powerful um emotions. It is, it can be very debilitating. Um, but it's essentially the fear of the unknown. Um so instead of maybe having fear of the unknown, getting curious of the unknown, what possibilities lie on the other side of that curiosity? Yeah, very much a shift, emotional, physical, just a shift of like, you know, I'm uh I don't want to go, like you said, I don't want to go over that. I'm scared to, I wonder, I'm curious. And the curiosity, right, breeds innovation, it breeds, you know, uh new thinking, new ways. There's so much behind that door, right? Metaphorically, that you know, if you stay locked into your habits and your and your perceptions and all these fear, you know, kind of paralyzing, if you will, uh ideologies and emotions, it's like you never know what's out there. And I love what you say curiosity because I'm the same way. I'm very curious. I'm very much a risk taker. So having that curiosity, yes, you're still scared. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. But there could be something good on the other side. Like you said, there could be something that is wonderful, right? That could be um just tremendous for you or the the people around you. So it's like the what if, what is around that corner. So Yeah. I don't want to live small, you know. I we got one life to live, and yes, we can be frozen in fear, but it's just not the life that I want to live. And I I just I want everything that is meant for me. Yes. And I think that it that I you have to you have to kind of step out and say, okay, snake might be there. You know what? I'm just gonna I'll not just bring snake along. Yeah, yeah, I'm hanging along. Yeah, that's uh that's that's funny. But yeah, very much, you know, claim it. And there's this very uh deterministic way within you like if I'm gonna, if this is gonna be, it's up to me, right? Like I'm gonna make this choice, I'm gonna make this um difference to create something new in my life that I deserve and I want. So um, yeah, you got it. Like I said, you're you're on the path. As we as we wrap up here, too, we're gonna kind of hit the hit the exit here soon. Um, you know, Monica, you you've kind of spent over really a decade or longer kind of building in healthcare right through pandemic, through personal transition, through relocation and reinvention, like you said. And you're stepping now into a CEO seat um right now while carrying right, heavier uh personal load than most people can manage. So kudos to you. But when you look at that, Monica, that whole entire arc, right? What do you know now about um how a person actually builds and sustains themselves through real weight that you could not have known, you know, at the beginning or prior to this experience? Right, right. Um, looking back, I I've realized that that carrying yourself through all the ups and downs isn't about having it all figured out. Mm-hmm. We're never going to have it all figured out. It's about building some sort of internal foundation that can hold the weight when life throws everything at you. It's um I've carried the professional stuff, the hospitals, the teams, the programs, I've carried the personal stuff, uh moves, wanted and unwanted, um, you know, illnesses, unexpected crises, losing loved ones. What's kept me going, my faith, and then waking up every morning and saying, today I'm gonna show up better than yesterday. Um, it's not some magical thing, it's just noticing what you can actually influence, letting go of what you can't, and making the conscious choice moment to moment. Yes. Honestly, I think just being okay that some things are completely out of your control. Um, going back to that controlled surrender um concept. It's not easy, but sometimes necessary to get unstuck. In ontological coaching, and we briefly talked about this, but the exercise of physically moving from one space to another, like simply saying take one step forward from the spot that you're in, and then notice what you see differently from that spot. It seems so you know, so simple, but it's powerful. Powerful. Um it's it's a new and different vantage point to see the world being over here versus across the room. You're gonna see something different. If you don't go to that spot, you're you're you're gonna miss it. Yeah. Um and how powerful could it be if all it took was one step putting your body in just a slightly different space, if that could make all the difference in a possibility or opportunity that's in front of you that you couldn't see or notice before. I I think that's you're like brain explode, right? Yes. Um, at the start of my career, I thought if I just worked harder or if I knew more or got in the right position, everything would be fine. But what I really found out was staying grounded inside of myself, taking the intentional action. That's how you really carry the weight and keep and keep moving forward. Yeah. Let's just say I get that, I get that CEO seat tomorrow. They call me up and they say, We want you. Okay. One of the first things that I think I would focus on bringing this to healthcare, that's my that's my dream, is building leaders on my team who understand this concept of being a different observer of themselves. Like that's step one. In healthcare, especially, we spend so much time solving problems. We're responding to crises every day, there's a fire. But I want the leaders on my team to understand how I'm showing up today in all of that. Um, so really just kind of getting it. They call it self-awareness, but I like the phrase better being a different observer of yourself. Yeah. Self-awareness, it's it's can you see yourself from the outside, essentially? It puts you in a different seat. Uh uh when you say it, it's a different perspective, a different lens of like, oh, you actually have ownership in this observation of your own. Yeah. But uh everything you said, right, like you're staying true to yourself, you're becoming grounded, um, and just being able to handle, right? I use the word sequence, but you're having all these factors um on top of each other that allow you to remain you no matter what's going on, right? And then being able to your point, right, you get this position when you get it, knowing what to implement right away, whether that's two people on your team or in that leadership role or more, of course, you're gonna make sure that they understand this, they show up in in the same way and have this tool set to operate from, to live from, and um just overall, you know, improve right the the um the experience and in the culture. So beautiful answer there. Thank you. For for someone speaking of healthcare, right? You're you're in that field. For someone listening right now, you know, a leader in any field um who is doing the work, carrying the weight and wondering if they have what it takes to step into that next version themselves. What would you or what do you say to that person? You already have it. It's not about being perfect, it's not about having all the answers. I've tried. Right. I I'm like addicted to answers. Um It's about how you're showing up, being a better observer of yourself and making choices even when it's uncomfortable. Um and and trusting, like trusting yourself, like having that self-trust that even if the choice that you make isn't the best choice, it's gonna be okay. You can pivot. It's okay. Um growth happens in the messy real life stuff. And you just gotta lean into it. And yeah, that's yeah, you'll find that version of you that's already there waiting for you to show up and say, I'm here. Yeah. Once again, going back to the messiness, like I think we live in a society that doesn't want to get in the in the mud. And very much for like this whole right, this podcast, you very much have done that. Like you've got in it. You had the knowledge, right? You had the the academics, right? The the to your point, the answers, and now it's just like you got to get in it and and embodying the messiness. I had a guest prior who like you're okay operating in the greatness, right? You gotta find that other 20% of like, okay, I'm kind of learning along the way, but that's that's the gold, right? That's that's what gives you and creates you and molds you and provides all the things that you want or think you want um by immersing yourself in it and being okay, literally, like you said, being okay in it and not beating yourself, right? Have some some self-compassion for yourself that hey, you're you're you're still figuring it out. So great answer. Once again, I hope someone's taking notes on that uh on that answer. Like I said, she'd have a lot of depth and a lot of value. Last two questions for you. Next question is where can people find you, right? So people are listening, where can they find you? Where can they connect with your work and stay in your world? Uh, before you answer that though, I do want to make sure we do put in the show notes the diagram you talked about. I think it's those those four emotions or eight emotions. Oh, the moods of life part. So I will put that in the show notes for those who are are listening. Um, I wanted to plug that in for you, for you did answer that question of how you know folks connect with you, stay in your world. Yeah. Well, LinkedIn is the easiest. I used to have a website, I don't have it anymore. Um, but I am in the throes of writing a book. Okay. Good. Congratulations. Um, yeah. It's funny, my therapist told me everyone has one podcast and one book at them. And I'm like, well, I'm doing both of those this year. Yeah. Mind little stuff. Yeah. Um, so I'm writing a book on it's it's gonna be around the conversations that we have. It's going to be leadership focused, healthcare focused, but really in this in any industry, I think can get glean some nuggets from it. But um essentially being a better observer of yourself in conversation. Um, because I think most leadership problems, they aren't strategy problems. They're I'm not seeing how I am being right. Um, so the book is really about helping people see themselves more clearly, um, understanding what conversation they're in, being able to diagnose what conversation you're in. Um and if you're not in the right conversation, how do you shift and get into the right conversation? So I'm excited about it. I actually have my first recording session on Friday. You should be. All that's valuable too. I love how you pinpointed like each uh, what when I say maybe each phase of what you're in and what you need to be in to identify and how do you then transition, right? Cross over to that where you want to get. Um very, very much important. So I congratulate you on that, um, on that book. So good for you. And also we'll make sure to stay connected via LinkedIn. Um so people can follow you, follow that work and follow your book before you know, before you uh eventually drop it. I know there's no dates yet, but when it does, we'll be there to support. Last question is usually off the book, right? Uh the podcast is the life is podcast. So those who've been listening, yourself to Monica, um, this is really a part, you know, if you could think about life, right? And if I asked, you know, what life is to you, and if you feel in that last little tidbit or that phrase or word, what would you add in on the back end? Well, like the book Life is Lifey says life is messy. But the moment you can see it, then you can choose differently. That is really powerful. And in real, like really, I think that's it's true. Like life is messy. Messy. But once you can see it for what it is, like a windshield wiper, you can just wipe it off, get clear, right? And then create a better version, environment, world, perspective that you want to see. So I love that that uh it's messy, but you can you can change it. So awesome. Well, other than that, Monica, I think we've had a phenomenal conversation. I hope those who are listening um or watching, right, will be watching this soon, have enjoyed it. I've enjoyed it myself. It's great to see you once again. Um just just your your knowledge, and like I said, your nuggets have been uh valuable, and I hope uh not only myself getting the information, but those who are listening are able to digest it and apply it um to their own world. So um once again, just thank you. I appreciate your time and bushing up with the best. Thank you. Yes, you're very welcome. Well, I'll let you go from here and continue to do great things in the healthcare world. Take care. I met Monica and Bali. I remember thinking this is someone who moves through the world with real intention, not performance, intention. This conversation confirmed everything I sensed then. Monica is not studying leadership from the outside. She is living it from the inside, through the academic rigor, through the operational experience, through the personal weight, through the CEO candidacy, through all of it, without waiting for the circumstances to be easier or the timing to be cleaner. She is proof that the internal architecture you build is what makes every external move possible. That is not a career story, that is a coherent story, and that is exactly what this show is about. Until next time, keep building. Take it with you, put it to work. If you're ready to go deeper, I have tools built specifically for this journey. A self-discovery blueprint, a diagnostic designed to show you exactly where your foundation needs attention. Links are in the show notes. And if this episode out of value, share it with someone who's building, leave a review, help us grow this community of intentional people doing real work. Remember, the film isn't found. It's built. Life is our emotion, and you are the artist. Until next time, keep building.