Crime of the Century | The Lindbergh Baby and Forensic Botany

A baby goes missing. A ransom is paid. A man is executed. And a piece of wood — just a piece of wood — becomes the most important evidence in the entire case.

The Lindbergh kidnapping was already one of the most sensationalized crimes in American history before forensic botany entered the picture. Arthur Koehler, a wood scientist with the U.S. Forest Service, spent years tracing a single ladder rail back to a specific lumberyard, a specific planer, and ultimately a specific attic. It was painstaking, meticulous work — and it changed how investigators thought about physical evidence forever.

We also take a look at the man behind the myth: Charles Lindbergh, American hero, and his complicated (read: deeply uncomfortable) politics in the years that followed.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

I'm Chelsea. And I'm Jenny. And this is Doctor.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Alright. I will preface this with it may feel a little disjointed and it may feel a little too detailed in some spots and not in others, but I think I hit the uh the big key moments here. So uh okay. So today I am going to tell you about the earliest known use of forensic botany to help prove who the perpetrator was of what is known as the crime of the century.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Ooh. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

On March 1st, 1932, in East Amwell, New Jersey, a baby was kidnapped from his second floor bedroom and a ransom note was found on the windowsill. This became national news very quickly because of his father's celebrity status. His father was the famous aviator Charles Lindbergh.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Oh. Gotcha. Yeah. We're going over the Lindbergh baby. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yes. Because I did not know that forensic botany was used in that until recently.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Yeah. And I know of the case, but I don't know enough details about it to know really anything. So I'm eager to learn.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Well, hopefully I have all of the right details. There's a lot of information on this, so if I get things wrong, it's probably because I was going off of like five different sources at a time. So after discovering Charles Jr. was missing, a search commenced outside the house and a wooden ladder and impressions in the ground under the bedroom window were discovered. The ransom note asked for $50,000 and said they would send further instructions after a few days about where to deliver the money. And of course ransom do. Yeah. And to not contact the police.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Also, as ransomers do. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Yeah. So police were called immediately. Uh-huh. Which good because a lot of people don't. Um, the next day, J. Edgar Hoover, the director of the FBI, told the police in New Jersey that the FBI would provide assistance, and then the authorities also notified President Herbert Hoover. Got it. The next day. So that's wild.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Yeah, that's quite the escalation.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

They were like, this famous man's baby is missing. Let's let's get to this. Like, yeah, let's let's figure this out. So yeah. At the at like in the beginning, Charles Lindberg suspected that it could be connected to organized crime, like gangs or mobs.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Which I guess there had been like a few in the area working, I or maybe doing similar things. I'm not totally sure, but that was a thought.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Because where did this take place?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

New Jersey.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Okay. Uh yeah, I could say that.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yeah. And, you know, a celebrity kind of guy. It's like on March 6th, a letter arrived at Lindbergh's home that raised the ransom to $70,000. Another note was sent to Henry Breckinridge, who was the former United States Assistant Secretary of War and was also Charles' attorney.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Quite the attorney, okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Right. Uh and that note was instructing that a man named John Condon should be the intermediary between the kidnappers and the Lindberghs. John Condon was like a principal of a school and a coach of a basketball team, but he was sort of like, I think, like a society kind of figure, like kind of I don't know why he was picked.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

That only throws me off because I literally had a middle school teacher whose last name was Condon. I don't remember his first name.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

That's kind yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know what the significance of this guy was, but that he was named as being the go-between.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

So he was John Condon was instructed to place an ad in the newspaper that the note had been received. So he sent the message that said, Money is ready, Jaffy. So like, money is ready, period. And then like kind of signed Jaffsey. And that was his code name. Because I think all of this was sort of like done in words are failing me right now, but sort of all done with like law enforcement or FBI or something. Like they were all aware of all of these communications that were happening. Um, a meeting took place between John Condon and a representative of the kidnappers who called himself John. They discussed the ransom, and the man said that he would send proof of life, which was the baby's sleeping suit. I'm assuming like pajamas type thing, or like whatever a baby slept in back then. Uh which he the man did send to John Condon on March 16th. Uh several other notes were received in this time. I think there were like 11 or 12 notes total that were like sent back and forth. I yeah. Uh but on April 1st, Condon received a note that said to have the ransom ready the next night. So this is like a month after baby's kidnapped. So a wooden box was custom made with the hope that it could be identified later. They had the they gathered the ransom money. I think they only did about $50,000. Um, but they recorded the serial numbers, and some of the bills were gold certificates that were about to be removed from circulation. Oh. So that would be easier to track if people were using, you know, gold certificates with whatever numbers. So on April 2nd, Condon met with the man again and gave the $50,000. The man took it and either gave him or left a note somewhere, like told him where a note would be, and said that the baby was on a boat named Nellie near Martha's Vineyard. A search of the area the next day was unsuccessful. And then about a month later, on May 12th, a delivery truck driver stopped for a bathroom break in the woods and discovered the decomposed body of what would later be identified as baby Charles.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Charles was found roughly four and a half miles away from the Lindbergh home. And the coroner determined that Charles had been dead for about two months, and the cause of death was a blow to the head.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Yeah. So then on May 26th, the New Jersey State Police offered a $25,000 reward for information that would lead to the apprehension of the kidnapper or kidnappers. Because they had no idea.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Yeah. All they had to go off of was the dude who did the in-between and then ransom notes. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

There were a lot of tips and investigations, but resulted in like literally nothing. They had zero idea. So the police decided to focus on the ladder that was found at the home. They said it was built incorrectly, but built by someone familiar with wood.

unknown 7:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

I couldn't totally like in that doesn't work in my head. I'm like, so how do you build a ladder incorrectly, but yet you know that the it Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

Like unless the sides were uneven or something, or I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yeah. But in comes Arthur Kaler. He was a chief wood technologist who worked in the Forest Service in the Forest Products Laboratory in Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Nice. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

I didn't know that existed, let alone in the 1930s, but here we are. After examining the wood, he identified the wood as North Carolina Pine and determined that the latter had been made with a plane that had a dull chipped blade. So like he could tell by the marks on the wood that it was just yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

That I've seen, at least like uh the cut and stuff like that. People can tell, oh, this blade is dull or this blade is missing something somewhere in the wheel, or yeah, so yeah. It's cool to me anytime somebody does it, though.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

I'm like, that's wild, but yeah. Uh he also said that the vertical rails of the ladder also had holes that were 16 inches apart and showing that nails had been pulled out. I was like, isn't that kind of like like the width between like joists or like isn't it about 16 inches? I think.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

I don't think like in your house? Something like that.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

So that I don't know. I didn't look into that because I forgot.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

The actual schematics of what a ladder should be.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so Arthur visited many sawmills looking for the unique pattern that was on the wood from the process of producing the board. He found the sawmill in North Carolina and found that they had sent wood to 42 lumberyards. He spent a lot of 1933 searching those lumberyards and finally found it at a lumberyard in the Bronx. The lumberyard had sold all of the wood from that shipment, but had found that a storage bin had been made from some of that wood. So just happened to have the wood from that shipment on their lot, which is wild.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Very lucky.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah. Uh he compared the wood and said they matched. He was then disappointed to learn that the lumber yard was cash only with no receipts with names.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Dang.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Yeah. So then, on September 15th, 1934, a $10 gold certificate had been used at a gas station for five gallons of gas, which I didn't find it in my sources, but I think when I watched something about this, it said it was about $2 worth of gas. So to use a $10 bill for $2 worth of gas was it it made the the gas station attendant suspicious.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Especially a gold certificate.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was probably maybe out of circulation by that point. Uh so the gas station attendant wrote down the license plate number of the car, and the authorities found that it belonged to Bruno Richard Hauptman. John Condon had given a description of the man he met with that was John. And as police watched Bruno's house, a man who closely matched Condon's description and the gas station attendant's description left the house. So they arrested Bruno on September 19th, 1934. Bruno Hauptmann was born in Germany, but had been in the U.S. for about 11 years and was a carpenter. A $20 gold certificate from the ransom money was found on him when he was arrested. And they found $13,000 of the ransom money in his garage. Well, it gets better. John Condon's phone number was found written on a doorframe of a closet in the house.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

And handwriting from the ransom notes matched samples of Bruno's handwriting. But it gets even better.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Uh they also found the wood plane that made the same planing marks on the wood from the ladder.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

And Arthur matched the wood from the ladder to the wood used in Bruno's attic. The wood grain pattern and the age of the wood were the same as the wood in the attic. And the ladder. So he also placed a section of the ladder where some of the wood was missing, and the holes matched the nail holes in the joists of the attic.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Oh, so he pulled the planks from the attic to make the ladder.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Yeah. So the trial for Bruno started January 3rd, 1935, in New Jersey and lasted five weeks. Among many others, Arthur Kaler testified in the trial and established a physical link between Bruno and the Lindbergh home. The defense tried to make his testimony circumstantial evidence instead of absolute proof, and questioned if his methods were fallible. Uh but the jury deliberated for about eleven hours and returned a guilty verdict that sent or sentenced Bruno to death.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

The fact that they're like, no, that's all circumstantial. It's like he has the ransom money. That's not circumstantial when you have multiple thousands of the ransom money. Right? A couple bills? Sure. The majority of it-ish, or at least a good fraction. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

But like the the Also the board. I don't see how you could call that circumstantial. It's a physical piece of evidence that was left at Lindbergh's home in a ladder, and it matched perfectly in his attic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Right back and be like, oh look.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

I'm pretty sure that's what he did. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know how you call that circumstantial. They sure tried. They did try. Then they failed. Yep. Um, which yeah. So Bruno maintained his innocence, though, like the entire time. He made a series of appeals and they all failed. So he was executed by the electric chair on April 3rd of 1936.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Rough buddy.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Yeah. Uh, because there are plenty of theories that he was either not responsible or that he didn't act alone. Like that.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Well, I can see him not acting alone for sure. Like he just made the ladder in supplies and was given a cut. I could yeah, see that.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Yeah. Uh yeah, there I mean, there's even a theory that, like, yeah, either that he was not involved at all and framed by police, or that there's a theory that Charles Lindbergh was involved. Um, there was also a maid that gave inconsistent stories who then committed suicide.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

But she was cleared by police. So there's a lot of room for doubt. Yeah. About Bruno's guilt or innocence. Okay. Um, which I do think it's funny when I was looking all of this up. There is a group of researchers, like currently, as of last year, suing the state of New Jersey to force them to allow DNA testing on the multiple ransom notes.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Yeah, do it.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Right? That's what they were like. If Bruno, if it's Bruno's DNA on there, then shouldn't you want to But police don't like being wrong. That's exactly. That's why they're having to have been wrong. Uh-huh. No.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, I do wish them luck that they can actually get the DNA testing because that would give true answers, which would be nice.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Yeah. And that's why I'm like, just do it. It's not that much anymore. I mean, it's still expensive, probably, for police departments, but like, I don't really care. I'm a little biased. So that is the story of the forensic botany part of that. Um, I I wanted to mention some things about Charles Lindbergh as a person. So if you are not into political things, uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Probably just by right. Thank you for watching.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Yeah. I do think it is important. Okay. Um, I mean, is is it important about a person who is no longer alive? I don't know, but I think he did help.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

I mean, we know plenty about Hitler. Yeah. He's no longer here. Yeah. It was impactful. So.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Mm-hmm. Yeah, funny that you mention Hitler.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

We tying it in.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yes, we are, sadly. Okay. So he was a famous aviator that made history by making the first solo trip from New York to Paris in 1927. Uh, a historian compared this flight to the moon landing in its significance of the time. So, and it did like advance air travel and technology and planes and all of the things. Like, that was a big, a lot of people say, consequential moment because it's it's had good or bad consequences of air travel, and that's partially how we are where we are today. Um, and Charles and his family moved to England a short time after the kidnapping because of all of the attention on his family. It was like paparazzi basically following him, trying to get all the pictures, and it was crazy. Um, and I think I read, I forgot to write it down, but that he had thought about moving to Germany.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Which in this time just sounds crazy to me.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Cause this was when, the 1930s? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

So I don't remember which year they moved to England, but they moved back to the US around 1939.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

When it seemed like the US might join World War II.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Cause yeah, we didn't join until like 1941, 42, because yeah. But there was a lot leading up to that that the US was like, hey, yeah. World war that's happening is not great. And some people did not want to get involved. There are a lot of details and sides to the following things that I bring up, but these were the ones that stood out to me. There are, I mean, as with everything in history, there's about a billion sides to everything, and so many circumstances and all different things that go into everything. But these are kind of the main points that I wanted to bring up.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

So Charles had views that aligned with the Nazis and was even blocked from returning to military service during World War II because of his public comments.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Oh. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Even President Franklin Roosevelt said, quote, if I should die tomorrow, I want you to know this. I am absolutely convinced that Lindberg is a Nazi. He was talking to his Secretary of Treasury when he said that.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Um Yeah, that's it doesn't get better.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

So Roosevelt also told his soon-to-be Secretary of War, I think he was waiting to be appointed to the cabinet. Uh, quote, when I read Lindbergh's speech, I felt that it could not have been better put if it had been written by Goebbels himself. What a pity that this youngster has completely abandoned his b his belief in our form of government and has accepted Nazi methods because apparently they are efficient.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Gotcha. Efficiency is not always good. Just throwing that out there.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, there's a lot of ties to uh current current things that are happening.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Um Charles Lindbergh became the spokesman for the America First Committee, which was the isolationist group that was against the United States entering World War II.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Um, the four principles of the group were that the US must build an impregnable defense for America, that no foreign power could successfully attack a prepared America, American democracy could only be preserved by staying out of the European war. And aid short of war weakens national defense at home and threatens to involve America in war abroad. So basically, they didn't want to get involved and they didn't want to send aid. And I think Roosevelt thought that sending weapons to help like France and Britain would help the US like avoid getting involved in the war.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Kind of like, okay, here you guys handle it. We can just sit back and not. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Uh but America first didn't see it that way. They just thought any aid was just saying like they like they sort of thought that Europe needed to learn how to defend itself, is kind of the gist that I got.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

It it was like if we keep intervening, then Then we're just I don't know if it was so much about money back then, but it everything is always about money. But it was more about like they need to handle their own stuff and America first, like we need to prioritize ourselves, we need to make ourselves like you know, like so no one can attack us, successfully attack us. But it felt just really short-sighted.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Yeah, that yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yeah. So this group also had controversial members, uh, like Henry Ford, who is was a very anti-Semitic person. And Lillian Gish, who was the star of Birth of a Nation.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Oh I know vaguely about Birth of the Nation, but I don't know who that is.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

No, just the sh I didn't know who she was either. She's just the one who was the main, I guess, woman in it. But yeah, just I her views, because I had to Google her real quick, her views were basically she was a Republican, and there was a little comment on, I think it was just on Wikipedia, but something about that she felt that she had been blacklisted until she signed a contract, like condemning her beliefs almost. Like say, I I cannot, I should have looked into that more. But it was like she kind of aligned herself with also a lot of the beliefs of this this group.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Ah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Which this group itself was not like inherently terrible. It was founded by like Yale students. Um, it just kind of turned into a lot of the members that were joining were very problematic and had intense views and not the most savory ways. Um yeah. Okay. So Lindbergh gave speeches at large rallies that were considered anti-Semitic, and there is a photo of what appears to be Lindbergh giving a Nazi salute at a rally in 1941.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Ah.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

When I say appears, that's because that's what the caption of the photo said. It's a hundred percent a Nazi salute, in my very humble, not humble opinion. Everyone in the crowd, their hands are all up at the same level. You can't see a ton of it, but there's enough. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

My brain goes to the the discourse. The lovely Elon Discourse. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

That was my first thought when I saw that, also. I was like, yeah, uh-huh. Uh yeah, so Lindbergh spoke about preserving European blood in the US. And yeah, well, because you know, the US has a lot of European Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

But preserving that one specifically, and a lot of the stuff that he said made Germany praise him.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

So for that time period, shocker. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Yeah. I can't say that he necessarily condoned what Germany was doing to Jewish people, like the the mass murder, uh, but he didn't sympathize in any way. Um, the Secretary of the Interior, Harold Icks, I don't actually know how to say his name. Um, he said, quote, No one has ever heard Lindbergh utter a word of horror at or even aversion to the bloody career that the Nazis are following, nor a word of pity for the innocent men, women, and children who have been deliberately murdered by the Nazis in practically every country in Europe. Ix had never heard yeah had never heard this knight of the German Eagle denounce Hitler or Nazism or Mussolini or Fascism. He had not even heard Lindbergh say a word for democracy itself. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so the America First group ended up dissolving after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Gotcha. Because uh at that point, yeah, attack on US soil is the that's all yeah. We're in now. You touched our boats.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Yeah. You touched our boats. So push your toys, don't touch our stuff.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Uh so those are the main things from his uh his personal life. But I guess the side note that I have is that he also had seven children with three German women that he had secret affairs with.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Oh God.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

So I'm curious um if you have the answers to this at all, and I guess also regarding and disregarding the fact that he has seven children. For the specific Limburg baby who was kidnapped, did he show like remorse or distraught or outside of the paparazzi being in his face all the time? Um, yes. Okay. Yes. Did he seem to care? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Um, he was very I think he was just actually like sort of smart uh when it comes to like the situation unfolding and like in the immediate like aftermath. I think it was when a reporter went to the house to speak with him, he wouldn't give a statement, and he said to talk to his attorney basically, or talk to this other guy that he was like, he knows all about it, like I would rather give all of my information to the police. I was like, that's that's how you're supposed to do that.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

Like so that people can't spin your words and turn it and yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

So as far as I know, I he and yeah, I think when somebody else showed up to the house, they noted that he was just pacing like back and forth, you know, and I think I mean, yeah, I think he was pretty, pretty affected by it. Okay, yeah. Cause yeah, and I think he he and his wife had two other children after because that was his firstborn.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Oh, okay. Um and they did still have more children later down the line.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Yeah, because you had also mentioned the theory that he could have also been partially behind it. So that's just like, okay, well, also how did he react to the fact that his own child disappeared? Because we've seen those. Usually there are some telltale signs where you're like, you're suspicious. Uh-huh. Oh, yeah. You know why? You're suspicious. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

I press conferences are important.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah. But yeah, no, because I think even growing up hearing about Charles Lindbergh and specifically the kidnapping, I want to say that that was the main theory that I heard was that he had something to do with it. I don't think I knew who actually was convicted and found guilty. Like, you know, I don't think I knew that it was this Bruno guy until looking into this.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Yeah. And I had never really dug into it much, but granted, I'm a few years younger than you, so growing up with that, it's like that's a name. I know the name. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

I mean, and that's where I'm like, where did I even hear the name to begin with? Like, I don't think we learned about that in history. Like, we learned about the Wright brothers, but I don't remember.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Yeah, I don't know either, actually, thinking about that. I don't think we learned about it in CWP or anything like that. Well, obviously it was in the 1930s, so it wouldn't have been current role problems, but sometimes they do throwbacks to be like, hey, here's something that happened and now it's happening again.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

So you can get the correlation and but yeah, I don't know. But we do, yeah, all know the name.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm like, maybe the history channel just being on all the time. Yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Or documentaries.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I know that there's a section of like Ken Burns' film on I can't remember if it was just World War II stuff. I know he's done so many, but I was watching a little clip of it earlier and it it seemed really good. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

There's definitely a lot, a lot of information out there. I was looking at like the FBI's like page on this whole case, and like some of it. Like, I don't know. It's it's there's a whole page on the FBI's website about it. Yeah. There's a lot of conflicting information out there though.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

So oh, yeah. Yeah, I could see that.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

The only thing that has seemed to be pretty constant was, I mean, little tiny details about Arthur Kayler and the like wood, you know, everything. Little details have been conflicting, but for the most part, the rest of that is that's consistent. For real.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

For not giving up and going to all the lumber yards after did you say 40 lumber yards? 42. 42. And I think he like Maybe he didn't have to go to all of them. Yeah. Going to enough of them until he got lucky enough to find the wood or where it was.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Yeah. I think he had ruled some out, but yeah, he's still, I mean, to spend a year going to all these places just to figure it out and then to get disappointed because they don't have receipts with names. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

But they still found him, found the house, able to match the wood in the house. And to me, that's like the bet I mean, yeah, finding the money.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Sure, there's plenty of things, but all of those things together. It's like how can you say that he didn't do it?

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Yeah, right. No, I do hope that maybe someday they give in and they get the breakthrough of being able to do the DNA testing on the ransom notes. Right. For at least the pursuit of truth, if anything.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Right. Like I don't know. I know it's New Jersey, but like I feel like they could pull it together.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

You'd think.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

Yeah. That's crazy though. And now I know more about Charles Lindbergh. Whether I wanted to or not.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

He did some good, but also not great.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think that was kind of my takeaway was like, yes, he did these great things, and yes, the the kidnapping and murder was obviously horrible. Yeah. Um, but the fact that he because I mean he made his like groundbreaking flight in 1927. His baby got kidnapped and murdered in, you know, 1932. And then it was the several years after that remaining in the spotlight and staying in like the rallies, or like, you know, being at the rallies and saying all of the terrible things.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

I'm like, usually I can find a reason to separate the person from, you know, like, or what they did from the terrible part of them. But I don't know, I have a hard time with this one.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

Yeah, and just be thankful for the the flight thing, be like, cool, that was a good accomplishment. You proved that it was doable.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

End there. End there. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I mean, there's pictures of him with like President Kennedy. Like, he definitely was a very famous person until I can't remember when he died.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Yeah, the fact that 1974.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

He died in Hawaii.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

I can't help it because I'm just a person. But the thinking of the fact that he got so much attention just because of his namesake and the thing he accomplished when kids are kidnapped all the time.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

But no, this one was enough to let the president know.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Okay. Cool, I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

I think even on one of the newspaper articles that I was reading, because it was just like it was a whole page dedicated basically to the kidnapping. I think it was from March 2nd, so the day after. And it was like church services stopped at finding out the news that the baby was kidnapped. And then somewhere else on the page, there was another kidnapping of a baby, but not like it was like of a contractor or something. So it was like just a little blip on the page. And I'm like, yep.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

It's so frustrating. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's good that they investigate it. I'll stop there. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

It's uh I mean I think it's harder too, knowing the hindsight that the baby probably was not alive very long after leaving.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Which is crazy. So they was at the ransom and then went eh and killed the baby.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Well, because that's what I was like, did like was it an accident? Was it an intentional blow to the head? Did they drop the baby when they were getting out of the like the bedroom? Like, you know, so that's why I was like, because he would have already left the ransom note, so they would, you know. I don't know. I I don't know any good theories on that one.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

I just I was like last thing they said was the baby was on a boat.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Yeah. But I think it was just stringing them all along, like the baby was the baby was for sure not alive, and they were like, Yeah, we'll give you proof because we just want the money, which of course. Yeah. But I think, yeah, the hindsight of knowing that the baby was not alive, and then how hard they like how hard and fast they investigated it is kind of hard because it's like, yeah, they put all this time and effort and money into something that was, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Yeah. And that part does suck, like obviously that yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

It is tragic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

Care as much the other ones.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Just a smidgen. Yeah, I'm not gonna comment on. I will end up on like an hour-long tangent. So yeah. I don't think people want to hear me.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Another one. Uh yeah, no, that's yeah. Cool. Well, for anybody else who also knew the name and knew that there was a case, there you go. Yeah. You know more, like me.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Yeah. And I mean, yeah, I think people should definitely, if you want to know more, look into it. I did my best on trying to piece together all of the different sources I was looking at.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

So cross-referencing. I mean, like, all right, what is the same and what's drastically weird and different? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

I mean, it's such an easy story to sensationalize, which I have learned from so many of the historical ones that I have been looking at lately, is it's it's very easy to just make up a story to fit, you know, whatever happened.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

So it gets clicks.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Yeah. Yep. Oh, I mean, even newspapers back in the day, man.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

Yeah, true. You had to do a good headline to grab attention. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. Thank you for teaching us.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Yep. Super, super fun topic.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Yeah. Informational. Yeah. Yeah. And really cool to show that even the niches of jobs that you don't even know exist can sometimes be super important.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Randomly on a whim.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Yeah. Yeah. It's not like he was an investigator. He was just like, hey, I know wood. Some dude really good with knowing wood. Right. I can tell you all about this wood.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

That one friend at a party. I know some fun facts about wood. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

I would be friends with that person.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Those are the best people, though. Yeah. Thank you. I'll come up with something for next week. It might not be political. We'll see.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Right. So many opportunities to be political.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

So many. Yeah. And they're they come in. They we you know, we only get to do this because it ties in with plants and other things. Wood. Wood is still, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

It's wood comes from trees. Grows outside. It's fine.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Trees they grow outside.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Hey, you can grow trees inside. So. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

It's still so cold. See, I'm not getting the Bonnie so bad. Right. Anyway. It's a different tangent. Take care of yourselves if we will catch you next week.