The Baby Farmer of Reading | Amelia Dyer

Warning for this episode: Infant murder is the main point in Amelia Dyer's story, this is a very dark story and may not be for everyone.

Sound Warning: Jenny thought it would be a great idea to take the podcast outside, but the neighbor was outside pressure washing for part of the recording. Jenny is not an audio engineer and does not have the skills to edit that out, so the audio may be weird in some spots. 

In the back rooms of Victorian England, "baby farming" was a quiet, legal trade — women paid to take in infants they promised to raise. Chelsea digs into the case of one baby farmer whose business model was built on a much darker arithmetic, and how it took a boatman on the Thames to finally unravel decades of missing children. A story about institutional blind spots, desperate mothers, and the horrifying efficiency of a woman who understood exactly how little anyone was looking. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm Chelsea and I'm Jenny. And this is Deth and Gardner. Alright, so here's my stretch for our podcast a little bit. But it there's a river in nature. That's my only tie, so we're going with that. Um, but today we are going to tell the tale of the ogres of Reading. Okay. We're going to England or the UK.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

You've got to.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

On November 27th, 1837, so a while ago, in a small village of Pyle Marsh, which is just east of Bristol, Samuel and Sarah Hobley welcomed their fifth child, Amelia Elizabeth Hobley. Okay. In total, the couple would have six children, three boys and three girls. So they got a nice even split. Alright. That's lucky. Yeah. Aside from Amelia herself, her siblings were as follows Thomas, James, William, and both of the other girls were named Sarah Ann. Okay. You'll see, you'll see why, I think, at least in my own opinion, why that was, but uh, it's it's interesting. Alright. Uh Samuel, the father, was a shoemaker, and unfortunately for the children, Sarah, their mother, was mentally ill caused by typhus. Huh. Yeah. Which caused her to lash out into violent fits.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Yeah. Uh this sort of setting is speculated to have had a possible effect on Amelia's own mental health, which honestly, going from childhood and living with that and that being the environment that you're in, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Yeah. Yeah. It would, I would be surprised if it didn't take some amount of toll.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Amelia's older sister. This is where we get into the Sarah Ann thing. Uh yeah, her older sister, Sarah Ann, sadly passed at the age of six in 1841. And her younger sister, Sarah Ann, which I'm assuming she was named Sarah Ann because the oldest sister died. That and they had a new child, and they're like, Sarah Ann Part 2.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah, it's just so weird, but I guess I have seen that in some history, like family history records.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

They just kind of keep the name.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Yeah. Um, and she unfortunately died in 1845 at only a few months old. Oh. Yeah. So that would in turn leave Amelia with her brothers.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Being the only surviving daughter.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Uh, she obliged to care for her mentally ill mother until her death, which came in 1848. This brought her to Bristol to live with her aunt for a time, where she served as an apprentice to a corset maker. Okay. In 1859, her father Samuel died and led to her eldest brother Thomas inheriting the family shoe business.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

In 1861, at the age of 24, Amelia became estranged from her brother James and moved into lodging at the Trinity Street in Bristol. I tried to look up as what caused the estrangement, and all I could really find is speculations, and the main one is that there'd be familial tension after the inheritance happened. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah, but I didn't find anything concrete about the situation. So not that it really seems to matter in the future anyway, as we'll learn, but yeah, so oldest brother got the inheritance. I haven't I realize now I don't know what happened to William really.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

He just kind of he's just off living his life. He's fine. Um see. While living in Bristol, Amelia met a man named George Thomas, who is 59 years old. Oh, it's just the old days. The 1800s. Yep. Yep. It gets a little funnier. To that point, they would eventually marry and actually lied about their ages on their marriage certificate. Oh my gosh. To reduce the very obvious age gap. Wow. George took 11 years from his own age and then added six years to hers.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

I like obviously there's a big age gap. It's still the 1800s. I guess it's not the 1600s, 1700s, so it's a little, but like, why go through the effort? Right. I don't know if there would be that much I mean weirdness around it.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

The tons of records that I have seen, I haven't really ever come across one that they lied about their ages. Right. So that's kind of weird.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

It is weird. I don't know why. Yeah. I feel like they would have been just fine without that, but yeah. Whatever, I guess. Uh Amelia took up training in this time to be a nurse. And from what I looked up later, because I had to research for something else. She ended up being a um what was it? A bedmaid. She helped uh women who were birthing, and then she also did a little bit at the a mental health institution nursing. Oh, okay. So she would soon have to leave that profession after she gave birth to her own daughter. And then sadly, in 1869, her husband George would pass, and Amelia needed to find a new source of income for her interchild. Yeah. Yeah. But also seeing that he was 59 when they met. Yeah, I mean, yeah. It's not that surprising that he passed, not too far down the line.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Right. Yeah, life and life expectancy was not it was not 104 at that point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yeah. So, as luck would have it, luck, Amelia discovered a new and easier way to make a living. She would begin using her home to provide lodging to young women whose children had been born outside of marriage, something that was very disapproved of and just a hardship on women at that time.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

And she would take money from them, just a fee for housing them, and then clothes for the child, too. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Fine. Uh, but yeah, so she would under the guise that she would send those babies away for adoption. Uh or you know, allowing them to die of neglect. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, by the way, warning to any mothers out there this is going to get dark. Being a topic around children and infants and yeah. She that aside, and that was the the practice was called baby farming. Ew. Yeah. Hate that. Yeah, it's not great. No. Uh, not only would she take an expectant woman, but Amelia, given her background in nursing, even as short as it was, advertised herself as being a nurse to adopt the children in return for the substantial one-off payment in adequate clothing. She assured her clients that she was a respectable woman and that she would provide a safe and loving home for the child, and that she was definitely still married. Oh. Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yeah. Though in 1872, she would marry again. Oh. So it wasn't a lie for too long. Uh her second husband was William Dyer, which ended up giving her her classic known last name. Uh, he was a brewer's laborer from Bristol. Together they would go on to have two more children. Okay. And she would eventually leave him. Oh. So she would then again be the unwed but totally wed, respectable woman. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Totally respectable, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Uh she still assured her clients, yeah, that she was respectable and married. Nonetheless, it's fine. Yeah. After a few successful years in the this is gonna it's a crazy sentence to read. In the baby farming business, uh, Amelia would decide that letting the children die of neglect and starvation was inconvenient and time consuming.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

So she took to killing them herself for more straightforward and quicker means. Quicker turnover rate means more money in her pocket, basically. Yeah. Very cold and calculated way. Yeah. So this would allow her to pocket most of the fees that she ended up collecting as the children came under her care. Her method was by strangling. And it was the white edging tape they would use in dressmaking.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Yeah. Wow. And then she would wrap their bodies in paper packages and bags and dispose of them. Specifically into rivers. Wow. She even admitting to killing one child the day it came into her care. Like she had no patience after a while.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

It's it's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Uh so after some time, uh, in 1879, she was arrested after a doctor had become suspicious of the number of deaths of children that had been called upon to certify while they were in Amelia's care. Yeah, that seems fair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Valid. Yeah. Uh shockingly, she eluded being convicted of murder and instead was sentenced to only six months of hard labor. Wow. 1800s. Yeah. When she was released from prison, Amelia immediately attempted to go back to her nursing career. She was in and out of lunatic asylums as well. Yep. Due to instability and suicidal tendencies. But these stays always coincidentally coincided with times that she needed to disappear. Ah. Mm-hmm. And from her experience in taking care of her mother and her time as an asylum nurse, she knew how to behave and ensure a relatively comfortable stay as an asylum inmate. Yeah. During this period, it's also suspected that Amelia was abusing substances that could have further impacted her mental health, such as alcohol and opium.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah, that that would do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Alrighty. In 1890, Amelia became the caretaker for an illegitimate baby of a governess. The baby met the same fate as all of the others, unsurprisingly. However, what was new was that the governess returned to visit the child. Oh. The child Amelia presented the governess with raised suspicion immediately, and she stripped the child to check for a specific birthmark on its hip. The birthmark was not there. Yeah. Shockingly. Suspicions then by the authorities led to Amelia either having a having or feigning a mental breakdown. In which she at one point drank two bottles of laudenum, a tincture of opium that contained 10% powdered opium by weight, which was equivalent of 1% morphine mixed in alcohol. Okay. As a suicide attempt. So it did not what she wanted.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Yeah. I did try to look up how much it would take to kill a normal human. Um and was greeted by mental health helplines and please don't do it. So it's like so I don't have the full answer. But it would have had a much bigger impact on an adult who was not already previously addicted or had a history of harshly using the substances. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

I tried.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Uh let's see here. After this episode, Amelia went right back to her baby baby farming ways, because of course she did. She quickly learned the folly of having doctors issue death certificates. Which, yeah, especially if you're gonna if you're not to give, I mean, she's dead, but not to give like ideas. But my god, if you're gonna go through babies that quickly. Right. Of course it's gonna raise suspicion. 1800s are not for crying out loud. Right, yeah. So she instead just took to disposing of them herself without the certificates, because yeah. Yeah. The fact she wasn't already just doing that is surprising. Uh, though she ditched the doctors, her activity still drew attention from the police and parents looking to reclaim their children. Not all of them wanted to just get rid of a child, like some of them just wanted it to be a temporary stay, and then they would come get them again.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Which we'll see. That's actually a really important thing for later, too. She she jumped the gun too quickly on too many of them. Right. Amelia and her family, because remember, she also has children of her own.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Uh, would frequently relocate to different towns and cities in an attempt to escape suspicion, regain anonymity, and gain new business. Over this time, she also used numerous um aliases, but at this point, in my humble opinion, the walls were already closing in. She had too many people suspecting her and on her back. In 1893, Amelia was discharged from her last and final stay at the Somerset and Bath Lunatic Asylum. Two years later, she had moved to Caversham or Caversham, and this time accompanied by an associate known as Jane Granny Smith, that she had recruited from her workhouse. She also had her daughter, Mary Ann, and her son-in-law Arth Palmer. Huh. Within the same year, they would move again, this time to 45 Kingsington Road in Reading. Amelia persuaded Jane to refer to her as mother in front of her clients to give a loving mother facade. Wow. Yeah. Everything continued to play out for Amelia as usual until 1896. In January of 1896, Evelina Marman, which I love that name, just Evelina. It's very pretty. An unmarried barmaid at the age of 25, who had given birth to a daughter, Doris, in a boarding house in Cheltenham, uh, sought out offers for adoption and even placed an advertisement in the miscellaneous section of the Bristol Times and Mirror newspaper. The ad read wanted respectable woman to take a young child. Marvin's intention was to return to work and then to reclaim her child later, which she was more stable to do so. Which is fair. She wanted to make sure she could give her kid a decent-ish, at least, life. Right. Next to her ad was another uh from a Miss Harding. Or Mrs. Harding, sorry, that read, married couple with no family, would adopt a healthy child, nice country home, terms 10 pounds. Marmon responded to the ad, and several days later got a reply from this Mrs. Harding stating, I should be glad to have a dear baby girl, one I could bring up and call my own. We are plain homely people in fairly good circumstances. I don't want a child for money's sake, but the company and home comfort. I and my husband are dearly fond of children. I have no child of my own. A child with me will have a good home and a mother's love.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Though Evelina wanted to pay a more affordable weekly fee for her daughter's care, Miss Harding uh insisted on the one-time payment in advance. Yeah. Yeah. Evelina, having no other choice but to agree, gave her the 10 pounds. And a week later, Mrs. Harding arrived to take the child. A few days later, she received a letter from Mrs. Harding saying that all was well because Evelina was she she wanted to be a mom. So she was very distraught about having to give up her child at that time.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Uh, and even followed her to like two stations before returning home to but she didn't follow her all the way. Yeah. Yeah. So she did receive the letter saying that all was well. And Evelina wrote back, but she never received another reply.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Yep. Mrs. Harding was, of course, Amelia's daughter. All along. Yeah. Uh she never did return to Reading, as she had told Evelina, but instead stopped off at 76 Mayo Road in Williston, London, where her other daughter, Polly, 23, was staying. There, Amelia found some white edging tape for dressmaking, and sparing the more specific details, proceeded to let the child asphyxiate. Jeez. Uh this is a detail that I won't skip because it shows just where she was mentally and should it's incredibly cold-hearted, uh, and almost a little bit sadistic. But she's quoted saying that she where'd it go? It's uh I used to like to watch them with the tape around their neck, but it was soon soon all over for them. That wow. It's probably one of the more, even with the poisoner that I have presented before, that's one of the more cold, callous lines that I've left. Ever heard? It's a baby. Yeah. Yeah. It's so both Amelia and Polly allegedly wrapped the baby's body in a napkin. I'm assuming just like a big cloth napkin, though it being a small child and probably not that big of cloth and napkin. Um, some of the clothes were kept while others went off to a pawnbroker. Easy money. Yeah.

unknown 22:27

Jeez.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

The following day, April 1st of 1896, another child came into her care named Harry Simmons and was also taken to the Mayo residence. There was no more white tape available, so she repurposed the tape that was still on Doris's corpse. Jeez. On April 2nd, both bodies were stacked into a carpet bag with bricks added for weight. Amelia headed for Reading, and at a secluded spot that she knew all too well, near a weir, which I had to look up what that was. It's a low-profile man-made dam built across a river or stream. At Caversham Lock, she forced the carpet bag through the railings and into the river Thames. As fate would have it, three days earlier. So we're gonna timey my fun stuff. So three days earlier than that, a bargeman had retrieved a package also dumped by Amelia previously. Since it hadn't been properly weighed down, it was easily spotted. Uh this bag contained the body of a baby girl, later identified as Helena Frye. The detective constable Anderson of Reading Bur of Readingboro Police found a label from the Bristol Temple Meads railway station, and by using microscopic analysis of the wrapping paper, he found the faint but still legible name, Mrs. Thomas, as well as an address.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Oh. That is lucky. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

It hadn't faded yet.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Jeez.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Yeah. The evidence was enough to lead the police to Amelia, but not enough to tie her to the crime. I mean, all right. Someone could have taken the bag, and you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

And as in bystander. Yeah. After interviewing witnesses and gaining additional information, their concerns increased. Rightfully so. Right. And Anderson and Sergeant James placed Amelia's home under surveillance. More intellect that they got in Intel told them that if Amelia found out that she was being surveilled and she was under suspicion, she would flee.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah. So they worked a plan to get a decoy in hopes to set up an appointment for adoption and to figure out in the business dealings. The plan worked. Amelia is either blood hungry, like bloodthirsty or greedy or both, and just ah.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

So on April 3rd, we're caught up now. Back to present day. Um, Amelia was expecting her new client, the decoy, to visit, but instead she found detectives at her doorstep. Hmm. Upon entering her home, they were struck by the stench of rotting flesh. Oh. And though there were no obvious bodies or remains found, there was plenty of other evidence. Because she didn't throw away I I digress. Uh these items, as you'll see why I'm like, why would you not just the white edging tape, which, yeah, obviously, uh, telegrams regarding adoption arrangements, pawn tickets for children's clothing, receipts for advertisements, and letters from the mothers inquiring about their children.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Yeah. The police estimated that in just the previous few months alone, at least 20 children had been placed in Mrs. Thomas' care.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Which was now to be revealed to them, obviously. None other than Amelia Dyer. Yeah. Amelia was again arrested on April 4th and charged with murder. Her son-in-law was charged as an accessory. The police dredged the river themes and found six more bodies, including her last two victims. Both had been strangled with the tape, which Amelia would later tell police was how you could tell it was one of mine. Oh. Like a real serial killer with just a signature. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Dang.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

During the trial, Nova evidence was found that Marianne and Arthur Palmer had acted as accomplices. So good, which also good if they weren't also living with them. I want to know how. Right. In the stench of the body. I don't, yeah. There's some messiness there that I'm like, okay. Yeah. Um. During the trial, they yeah, they were found not being accomplices, and Arthur was discharged later as a result of a confession written by Amelia. Which is Sir, will you kindly grant me the favor of presenting this to the magistrates on Saturday the 18th, instant I have made this statement out? For I may not have the opportunity, then I must leave my mind. I do know and feel and I feel my days are numbered on this earth, but I do feel it is an awful thing drawing innocent people into trouble. I do know I should have to answer before my Maker in heaven for the awful crimes I have committed. But as God Almighty is my judge in heaven and on earth, neither my daughter Mary Ann Palmer nor her husband Alfred Ernest Palmer, I do most solemnly declare, neither of them had anything to do with it. They never knew I contemplated doing such a wicked thing until it was too late. I am speaking the truth and nothing but the truth as I hope to be forgiven. I and I alone must stand before my maker in heaven to answer it, all witness my hand, Amelia Dyer.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

I guess good on her for clearing her daughter and son-in-law. I guess. I guess. That's it. That's all I got.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Right. I can't. Yeah, I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Oh boy. So from that, on May 22nd, 1896, uh, Amelia appeared at the Old Bailey and pleaded guilty to only the murder of Doris Marmon.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Her family and associates testified that they had been growing suspicious and uneasy of Amelia's activities, and it was revealed that Amelia had narrowly escaped discovery several times. Which, yeah, by going into institutions, by changing her name, by moving around. So I'm sure there were numerous times that she was almost got, but slid under the cracks. It's uh her daughter's testimony gave all the graphic details that ensured Amelia's conviction. Her only defense was insanity, stating that she had been admitted twice to the asylums in Bristol. Uh, prosecutions saw through this and claimed her bouts of insanity were nothing more than a ploy to avoid suspicion. Oh, good. Which, honestly, yeah, in my opinion, I I agree. Yeah. It's quite the coincidence. Yeah. Even if stresses were hot. It's just, yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Yeah, that's I mean, it could have been legit, but also yeah, I'm glad that they didn't take that as yeah, actual insanity.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Mm-hmm. It took the jury a whole whopping 4.5 minutes. Oh my god. To find Amelia guilty.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

I mean, I hate that for other potential women in different trials, but I hope that that was like um, yeah, that that's quick. That's great. They had enough evidence otherwise to I mean, I'm sure it was just a bunch of men being like, oh yeah, definitely guilty. So that one. Yep.

unknown 31:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

During her three weeks in the condemned cell, she filled out five, it said exercise books. I'm assuming that they were basically journals.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

She filled five of them out. Wow. With her last true and only confession. When the chaplain visited her the night before her execution and asked if she had anything to confess, she offered him the journal, saying, Isn't this enough?

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

There were five of them.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Yeah.

unknown 32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Jeez.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Amelia was hanged on Wednesday, June 10th, in 1896. And this is this is uh it is said that about 400 infants total. Oh my gosh. Died under her care.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Yeah. That is I mean, if she if they had found only she had been doing this for years. So yeah. In those few months that the police had found at least 20 years of that. Oh my gosh. It's an unfathomable number of just kids.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

That's insane.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Yeah. Which I guess after also doing that for so long and the amount of them, I can see how she just ended up so cold and calculated with it because it she felt nothing towards me anymore. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

It was a means of getting money.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

At that point.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

That is wild.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yeah. Uh there was a ballad. I have like two sort of silver linings uh that came from the case. The first is a ballad made from the scandal, and it reads The old baby farmer, the wretched Miss Dyer, at the old Bailey, her wages paid. In times long ago, we'd have made a big fire and roasted so nicely that wicked old Jade.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Yep. Uh, but the actual silver lining, I just like art that comes from things, but uh the real silver line is due to this egregious just all of the events, the adoption laws were made stricter.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Oh, okay, good. Good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

And the local authorities gained power to police baby farms in the hopes to stamp out abuse. Obviously, as we've also seen in nowadays, stuff like this still tends to kind of happen, but I would hope, and from how less frequently I guess we hear about it, it happens a lot less.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Which is good. It's still horrifying that it happens to begin with at all. But less often.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

The tiniest of silver linings. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that is that is the tale of Amelia Dyer, the ogress of Reading.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Yeah, that is insane. I don't like her. No. No.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Which is also why I realized about after reading a little bit in. I'm like, oh yeah, by it, by the way, this is gonna be real rough for some people to digest. Cause yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Yeah. Yeah, no. There's not, yeah, there's nothing good about other than the uh the stricter adoption laws. But yeah, that's that was pretty terrible.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Incredibly dark tail.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Also sheds the horrifying light on baby farms. Yeah. Don't like that.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

No. I just don't even like the word like that. No, that's just terrible.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

It's just because it's also like, which from a vegan standpoint, I suppose, yeah. You could be like, okay, well, baby farms, animal farms, say, but like it's still taking a living thing and just being like, eh, it's money.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Yeah, I don't, yeah. So it's also wild to me that she asked for money to adopt a child instead of paying money to adopt a child. Like, yeah. Because it's the it's definitely the opposite way now. I can understand being like, oh yeah, like just for the the cost of having a new baby now. But it's like, it's just that is wild to me that she was asking for money and a child, as if like I just I don't know. It's just weird, it's all weird.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

It is weird. I mean, I guess it it's a little less weird because she's taking on the burden and responsibility from these unwed mothers. Yeah. It's just like, I'll take it from you, it's fine, it'll be totally fine. It cared for a child.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

And so they pay her to take the burden, basically.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Well, yeah, for the care ones, but the one where she specifically attended for the adoption, like that is wild. I will take your child and $10 or 10 pounds from you. Yeah, what?

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah, that's it's like, yeah, no, yeah, I forgot, because that one, she's less of a she wasn't advertising herself as a nurse and doing this service. She was a family or a wed wannabe mother, yeah, looking for a child. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

That's crazy, and money. Yeah, yeah. The audacity. The audacity. That is oh, yeah.

unknown 37:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

So even though I don't have kids, which my own choice, I just my heart still goes out to like Evelynna. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Because she wanted the kid, she just could not feasibly take care of it at that moment.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Yeah. She was trying. She just she chose the wrong person to give the kid to, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. This is probably gonna be one of her more darker stories. Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah, that's the tale of Amelia Dyer. Yeah. Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Yeah. I'm pretty speechless after that, honestly. I got I got not a lot to have.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

I have no other saving grace other than the adoption laws got stricter and law enforcement was able to kind of have more of a hand in those situations to try to stop and stomp out the abuse before it got to that extent.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Which, to be fair, I'm pretty sure I haven't obviously taken this with a grain of salt, but I'm gonna go with that's probably the highest extent that that has maybe gotten to.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

I yeah, I don't know for sure, but I I could I could see that being, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

I would hope that that's the highest that would ever go into. Yeah. So with that, um I'll leave you to whatever you do next week.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

I have no idea. I have so well, okay. I have that's the problem. I have too many ideas. I just have to narrow it down. I haven't picked yet.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

So yeah. Whatever you choose is normally uh when I say fine, but is normally a good one, a good learning.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Yeah, we could try to do something a little more uh little less. Less. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Oh yeah. So everybody take care of yourselves, and we're gonna get out of this roasting sun.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Yeah. It felt like a good idea at the time. It's a little hot now.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

It is nice, it's very nice. I think we're almost at our burning threshold, right? So we'll release you and we will catch you in the next one.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Goodbye. Bye.