Episode 2- Will Gunter: The Power of Leading from Your True Identity

So many leaders are burning out, driven by unsustainable momentum instead of a clear, God-given mission.

The problem often starts with leading from a "borrowed identity." This episode is the solution.

In this powerful conversation, I sit down with Will Gunter to discuss the most important foundation for any Christian leader: Personal Identity.

We explore the "BURDEN" of leading from a place of validation-seeking or "shoulds" and how to find the "MISSION CLARITY" that comes from authentic, God-given purpose. This is the core of the Heart the Mission pathway.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Will Gunter. That's my name. In in the flesh, right here, man. I am um I'm dude, I'm really glad you're here. I'm um I've uh I've had a passion for trying to create something that would connect to pastors and Christian leaders to help them know, man, they might be a little more normal than they think they are. You know, like it's it's there's a lot of I think there's a lot, I think there's a lot of guys that like feel maybe uniquely broken and isolated that just can't find they can't find like any kind of um like like real connection or friendship. And uh man, there's that that creates all kinds of of problems. So yeah, um, so ha having you on here one one just as like like I I've got a gift for you, like, and then then I want to introduce you. But this this gift is for me just to I like giving away things that I love, right? And and this is something that I love, right? So things that are important to me about like what I love is like I love things that are authentic and real and like made of high quality and craftsmanship, and like this is not a commercial for this company, but I I love that and I love things that I'll use every day, right? And so um, so anyway, it's got me excited about it. Uh you should, dude. I wish I wish the bag were being pushed this way 100%. I like gifts. So uh yeah, man. Just want to just just yeah, open that up. Open that up.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

See what we got here. All right. Well, it's got the word knife on it, so that's always a good thing. Can't go wrong with that.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

I think he's got a I think he's got a um one of those stickers on the side to hold the box in. There you go. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Well, don't have to get my other knife out to open up my new knife.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Look, that is the real sign of a true South Carolina red knife. That's right. A dude that gets a knife as a present and opens the box with his current knife. Oh man, that's sweet. Yeah, dude. I like that. Heck yeah. That's something I love. And it's black, you don't have to um it's one of those things like a knife's kind of personal to a guy, but it's small enough to be like, hey man, I can I can put that uh I can put that here, you can put that, we can put that down over there beside you. Okay. Um but it's small enough um to where you can just carry it. So anyway, this I dude, I love I love this, and um you put that you can put that down there. Okay. Um that way that that way that company didn't get all this free advertising. All right, yeah, I understand. Um, but yeah, small enough to kind of tug it in. And and I and I do, I love, I love, I love that. I love that. You'll love it, you'll love it. Um thank you. Yeah, dude. Um I want to introduce you a little bit. Um, man, man, first of all, um one of my closest friends, and I've told and I've told you this before. Like, like I don't, I don't, I've never really been the kind of guy to like say, oh, this person is my best friend, or like, or you know what I mean? Because I I've got a I got a handful of guys like out there. Um but but here's what I've I've told you this, and I want to say this again for today, but man, I don't have a more trusted friend than you.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Man, that means a lot.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Dude, I I'm I'm telling you, like, like, I mean, I'm so I'm I'm glad I'm gonna say this on camera because that way if we ever get caught, like we'll we we won't our sin won't go too deep. Like it'll be us, we'll get caught. We'll get caught. But like you're you're one of those guys, like if you called me and were like, hey, we need to bury a body, like I'd be like, well, sounds like Will had to kill a guy, you know. But um, but dude, uh, I can't, I cannot stress enough how special your friendship is to me. And um, and man, what we what we've been through together. Like, man, I'm I'm just I'm just glad to have you on here. Um and that and that's what that's not what today's about. Like today's not all about like our you know, our our friend, our friendship, like like beauty and the beast. Um, I definitely would be the beauty in that though. I know definitely but I I did want to bring you here just to talk about talk about your life because I really do believe so much of what God's brought you through over the years has been really really inspiring to me watching you navigate life as a husband and father and ministry and calling and how how to really be a man, a real man, like and model that for your kids and family. Um man, it's uh man, just having a having a having a seat on the front row watching God use you've been been super cool. But man, enough of that before we break into tears. Um you historically, like especially for maybe the past 15 years or so, 10 years or so, have been a grace-based counselor. And and we're gonna talk more about what that means, but but basically working with people to help them discover their identity in Christ, and then how that lives out just in their every everyday life.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Um, and so that's a big part of what you've done historically, and and now you're kind of transitioning, like literally, like as we speak into uh a new phase of life as the pastor to youth and pastor of youth and counseling at Bethlehem Baptist Church here in Roebuck, South Carolina. Yeah, uh Pastor Joe Burnett, um, great guy. Love you, Joe. And um man, I I'm I'm telling you, not just that, not just ministry, great guy, got really cool tattoos everywhere. Uh, but but other than that, you are a husband to Holly. How long how long have you been married to Holly?

SPEAKER_02 6:30

26 years.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Oh my gosh, bro. We're old.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Almost 26 years. It was 25 this past summer, I think. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

You're in control for that.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

No, no, no. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Uh husband to Holly and and dad to Abby, Hannah, James, John, Matthew, and the little surprise we you call Simon. That's right. That's pretty good. Yeah. So, man, what what a story. And um uh also got an uh your your oldest daughter, uh, Abby's adopted, and very cool story about about that. But but man, um dude, what what a life. What a life, man. So so I I want to dive in, like kind of to these stories that sort of have been the narrative of Will Gunter's life, the things that have been influential to you, that kind of forms you along the way. So, so man, you you're as rednecked South Carolina as they get right here, Clifton Glendale like community. Like, tell me, tell me about that, man. Tell me growing up, tell me, tell me about Will Gunter.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Okay. Yeah, man. Um, yeah, I mean, I've always been a Spartanburg native and uh born in the little community of Packlett and then around eight years old, uh moved over to the Clifton area between Glendale and Cow Pens. Um but yeah, man, we were just always uh I think a simple, simple family. Never had a lot, but had enough. And man, I always felt love growing up, have lots of uh and lots of fond memories of growing up. Again, simple life. We didn't do a lot of traveling, a lot a lot of vacations. I think maybe went to the beach once uh as a family growing up, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

But the dirty myrtle, I bet. Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah, yeah. Well, actually, no Charleston, Charleston when I was nine. So that was that was really special. Um, I think we all stayed in a one, like uh it was an old hotel and the whole family, me, my two brothers, mom and dad were all in one room together.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

And it was like the best memory I've ever had.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Oh my gosh, yeah, it was awesome, dude. It was awesome. But yeah, man, um like I said, just uh just simple. Like I think some of our best memories, and something that I've tried to uh bring back uh as far as the tradition is July 4th, which you can't get any more rednecked July 4th. But July 4th, my dad had a tradition that he got from his dad, and I don't know where it started before then, but we got this big black wash pot. Yep, and uh we do a big deer hash uh every summer. And so uh man doing that every summer, like that was that was like vacation. I don't know, just preparing for that and being out there with your brothers and your dad doing that all day, and so that's one of my favorite memories.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Yeah, just hanging around with the family, like cooking. Yeah, man, I think when when like meat is being prepared, the the spirit of God is moving, right? For sure. Yeah, like I love it, man. So yeah, so here you are growing up over in over in Spartanburg County, like, man, what was it like? Like, like like being a kid in your family. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Yeah, man. Um, so so yeah, so so my mom and dad, um, you know, I think uh they they loved each other, and uh they definitely both loved me and my two brothers growing up. Um they both came from, I think, different cloths, if you will, as far as the families they came from. So um uh not that my mom's family was well to do. They were just uh they they were a little different, she was raised a little different. My dad definitely came from more kind of, yeah, your redneck background. And so they got they got married, and uh even though my mom grew up going to church and was like even baptized as a little girl, I'll never forget her story, man. She uh she talks about I know at least at least my older brother was born, and maybe I was too at this point. I think I was born too, but she was just standing at uh our little duplex uh washing dishes in the kitchen, looking out the window, and it just hit her like a ton of bricks. She's like, I don't know the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

And oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

She was like 21, 22, and and that's when you know she she put her faith in the Lord and it was real and it was personal. And so mom was kind of, if you will, she was sort of the spiritual leader in our home. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Uh it's that way for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Yeah, oh absolutely. Yeah. And so she kept uh, you know, she kept me and my two brothers, my older brother Clay, my younger brother Chris. She kept us in church growing up, and and I'm thankful that she did that. Um my dad, on the other hand, um he he knew the Lord because he shared his story with us many, many times later, especially as we got older. Uh, but he he struggled with alcoholism. Um and I guess you could call it that. I mean, he he drank a lot of beer, we'll put it that way. A ton of beer.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

I think that's the definition of it.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Yeah, yeah, it might be, it might be. He went into the hard stuff, but he drank a lot of beer, he loved beer. And um anyway, so that that you know, that definitely caused some tension in our home growing up at times. Okay um so, but but man, you know, my dad's been my dad died in 2013 of cancer, and he was a different man when he he passed away. Praise God. But but even now, with even with all the tension and things that we experienced growing up, I I guess, you know, sometimes after you lose somebody, you you reflect back on things. And it was like, man, even though he had those struggles, he loved me and my brothers. He was so proud of us and involved in our lives, taught us how to work hard, and we enjoyed doing those kind of things together. Um, you know, that's just some of the story. I don't know if there's some particulars you want to know in in that as well, some of the struggle and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

But yeah, tell me, I mean, tell me about that. What what was that what was that struggle like? I mean, you you remember being a kid, like what was that struggle, struggle like?

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Yeah, man. So, so again, like, man, just lots of good memories. I think more good than bad, but uh because of the struggle with with uh drinking and you know my mom and dad kind of going in different directions with that, um, you know, there would just be there would be times when arguments would break out in the home. And uh I would say mostly it would be, you know, a Friday night or Saturday night. And um, a lot of times those could be great times as a family, but you just never knew when the stuff was gonna hit the fan, you know, or what might trigger that. And normally it was dad just had too much to drink, and uh he was wasn't maybe really present or said something to aggregate my mom, or maybe mom was just mad at him because he was drunk, and uh an argument would break out in the home. And as a young kid, man, it was more this sense of uh of of fear, I think, when I was really young, um, of not knowing what to do or what to say. And so, you know, I can I I don't know if this was every time or just a couple of times that are stuck in my memory bank, but I uh, you know, kind of imagined myself more like going to hide in your closet, you know, and just kind of sit in there and and and cry, you know, because you didn't know what else to what else to do.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Man, what were the I mean what were the thoughts maybe as a as a young kid living in a home with with like two things going on, one extreme amount of love, and also at the very same time an extreme amount of chaos and fear. Like, what were some of the thoughts going through that young Will's mind and heart as you're hiding in that closet, man?

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Yeah, I mean, I you know, I think I think first of all, it was just that kind of fear type feeling, um, probably some sadness, but even as I'm thinking back on it now, and it and there's certainly some there's certainly some negative um feelings and thoughts that I developed about myself over the years. But I I think also for me, and I think probably me and my three brothers all, you know, we're going through the same things, but we're interpreting it differently, we're reacting, responding to it differently. But I think for me, that was the thing that probably drove me or led me into um probably a real relationship with God early as a as a kid.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Really?

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Um, because you know, when you felt alone, like kind of where else do you go? And so I had that. I would say even before, even before my faith became maybe uh personal or or or I made that kind of public profession, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Like I just knew God was there. And uh it was just that sense of if I was crying, I was crying with him, you know. So I think that's actually in some ways softened my heart. I think for some maybe hardened, but for me, I think it softened my heart and kind of pushed me into the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

So you've been able to make it you've kind of been able to look back in those moments to where you there was a potential for you to feel abandoned or left alone. Like you you've been able to really see God in those moments.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Oh yeah, yeah. And I think part of that is too, is even though dad had his struggles, um, I there was a deep sense that he loved me. You know, no, that was huge. That was huge.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Yeah, I I think anytime we tell us anytime we tell a difficult story, you know, about that involves someone or maybe their choices and how those affected us, like I always like to think like, man, this one piece of their life doesn't define them as a whole. Right. Even even like the people that have really wounded me in my life or that I've had to experience pain from, the same thing is true for other people. You know, and it sounds like maybe even as a young kid, you were the Lord gave you some really eyes of grace to be able to begin to experience and see that.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Man, that that all right, so so you're you're moving through childhood and and and you you're now getting a little bit older, high school.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

Yeah, yeah. So so things are uh, you know, things are still about the same as far as at home. Um again, me and my me and my brothers are still involved heavily in our church, uh, involved involved in our youth group. That was a big part of our lives. In fact, we went to a small millhill church in Glendale, Cisabona Hill. And we didn't have, I mean, you know, we didn't have uh at that time like an official uh children's pastor youth leader, like these were volunteers, those kind of things. And uh, and I think me and my brothers were like going to a youth group, if you will, since we were probably 10 years old, you know, we were kind of mixed in with these older people, and um, but we just loved being there, man. We enjoyed, enjoyed that and have a lot of good memories from that. So I think that was sort of an anchor for us, you know, that that community and the even some of the older adults at that church who loved on us and encouraged us. We just have a lot of fond memories there, just felt loved at that church by the people there. And so had that going on, and then at the same time, you know, you're also trying to figure out kind of who you are, you know, and what you're here for. And and again, there's kind of like these two different things going on as I'm going through that time of my life. As I look back, I mean, even junior high, I can remember an older lady at the church, she was a volunteer, she was with uh the youth group one night, and it wasn't like, hey, y'all need to start having a quiet time every day, you know, and kind of this checklisty type thing. She just made this simple comment, and I still remember to this day. Her name was uh uh Peggy, and she just said, Hey, you know, if you want to know God, a good way to do that is by reading the Bible. And I'm like, dang, that kind of makes sense. So there we go.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Anyway, you heard it here first, folks. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

I mean, it's kind of crazy. But uh, so for me, again, uh for what for me and what God was doing in my how old were you been in that time? Dang, man, I might have been like 12 years old. All right, all right, so like junior high. And so I pick up my King James version of the Bible because that's what I have.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

The right one, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

And uh I just started reading through it, and um, I mean, it probably took me a couple of years, but I I read through the entire Bible, and what's crazy about obviously I didn't understand a lot of it. Um, but what's cra crazy about that is it never felt like, oh, I'm doing this checklist thing so that God will be happy with me. Yeah, like it was just genuine desire to know him. So I think for me that part of that was God had this call on my life at an early age that he was already preparing me for. Um Wow.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah. Most like that's usually not the story. Right. Like, usually the story is like, man, most like I I can remember picking up the Bible when I was 12. And it was, you know, I grew up, I grew up in a pretty like legalistic, if you will, sort of culture. And I'm anytime I picked it up, it was to avoid hell, you know. It's like if I don't read this, right, I got first of all, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, I'll be a crispy critter one of these days. Like, and or uh, man, God's mad at me. Yeah. And if and then if I when I read the Bible, like I bend the meter the other way, like he's he's coming, you know, he's finally coming back because he's over there in the corner, grumpy, you know. But but here you are as a 12-year-old, just like Miss Peggy says, Want to know the Lord? Read the Bible, and you're you're taking in the King Jimmy, just yeah, learning who Jesus is.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah, it was a little bit later when those some of those more religious type thoughts started creeping in, and it's it's you know, it hadn't been until you know recent last decade or so, you know, when I kind of came back around to the simplicity of that, you know, just about just relationship. It took a long time to get back to that point.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

But you remember anything specific, maybe from like you reading through that Bible? It took you a couple years, you said. You remember anything specific as you read through that you remember just coming out to you as a young boy about truths about who God is?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Hmm. Man, that's a that's a good question. There's nothing, there's nothing hitting right off. Um, because I would have to say most of the time, like you know, you're trudging through the old testament. Man, it's like, yeah, I don't understand what I'm reading. I'm I'm just I'm just reading it. I would take a I would take a chapter a day. Um, I do I do I do remember having this this sense um and and and some of it's good and some of it's bad because obviously we know when we're reading, especially through the Old Testament, we can't read all of that and go, oh, that was exactly to me, because it was so much of it was the law. Yeah. But so it was good and bad. But when I read it, like I took it all personal, right? You know what I mean? Like, but even the good stuff, like you see God uh, you know, working through these men's lives in the in the old testament, like David and Daniel and Joseph, and I, you know, and I don't I don't think it was like a self-righteous thing, but it was a sense like, man, I'm special, you know, and God's gonna do something special with me.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Kind of that feeling. Wow. And and obviously there were times when you read something that's like, oh man, I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble now. Yeah. I'm in trouble now. Yeah, he's watching. I'm gonna spit my seat on the ground. Oh no, we had I say that jokingly, but I do remember in Sunday school, we had a Sunday school teacher, man, who we were like 11 years old. Yeah, and he read that to us, and he basically told us, like, you know, that's why masturbations is like don't be don't spit your seat on the ground, which is totally taking that story out of context, you know. Oh my gosh. That's a bold move for 10 years old. That's when the condemnation started coming in.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah, yeah, for sure, man, for sure. Oh my gosh, dude. So, so what when did you like when would you say, you know, you came to faith in Jesus? Like what what what was the was there a moment like that where you kind of put put a stake in the ground?

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Yeah, yeah, there was. Um, man, like I said, I always grow it up, like I just kind of, I guess growing up in that, and maybe it's more God just pursuing you. Yeah, you know, but I think when I was uh nine years old, um we had we had just moved and uh from just across town from Paclet to Clifton, and we started going to Glendale Baptist Church. And um things that you've been hearing over and over and over again start clicking and they start making sense. So I remember they had a uh, it must have been a revival, and uh, it was an older man because it seems like he had gray hair. But he had all of his kids sitting up on the first couple of rows.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

And uh man, he was just speaking to us on our level, and I don't remember the exact illustration, but he used like this baseball diamond illustration. I don't even remember what it was now. But that day, um, it just all made sense to me. And I knew, I knew in my heart, like, man, I'm I'm a sinner. Yeah. And uh, and Jesus did this for me, and it's and it was real. And so that that was the day that I that I made that decision. It was personal, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

And you I mean, you were talking about reading God's word at 12. Yeah, you can already see his spirit was already speaking to you through that. Man, that's that's yeah, high school, college, like tell me, tell me, tell me a little about those years, man. Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Um, high school, um, you know, I think, I think a lot of my again, still involved in youth and my relationship with God was important to me, and there were some things happening there, but also really, again, trying to focus in on who am I as a man, as a person, those kind of things. And also this sense of, again, I don't know any other better way to say this, but this sense of, you know, hey, I am a child of God, so I'm special. And that's true because we, you know, that makes us special being his children, but at the same time, I'm maybe a wrong concept of man, if I follow God and uh and I'm his child and I do the right things, then things should happen, right? Things should things should work out the way I would like them to, you know, those kind of things. And so a lot of my, I guess, as far as like searching for my identity, I think came through um sports at that time in my life.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

And um I I say this often, and I would probably change this statement now, but because I well, I I say this about my dad. I say I I love my dad. I knew he loved me, and I loved my dad. Um, but at that time in my life, I didn't want to be like my dad. There was an embarrassment and a shame attached to that because of his struggle with alcoholism. So I began to look to other men to try to figure out who I wanted to be as a man. And so uh those men were my coaches, my football coaches, or a wrestling coach. You know, I looked at those guys as my role model. And so again, how I, as far as how I performed, you know, whether it was on the football field or on the wrestling mat, um, it wasn't just something I enjoyed, and I did enjoy it, and I learned a lot from it, but it said so much to me about who I was as a man and as a person. So if I performed well, I felt good. Or if I had a coach, I used to have a coach that would say, because I was a small as a football player, yeah, I was a small dude, and I wasn't fast enough to be a running back, I didn't have good hands. So I played on the line. And I mean, 10th grade, man, I was playing nose guard, uh 135 pounds, soaking wet. And uh, and uh, and I finished my career out playing right guard, and the heaviest I got was maybe 170 by my senior year.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Yeah, 170-pound right guard.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Yeah, and I loved it. And I was mean.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

And uh so I loved it when the coach would say something like, Man, I wish I had 100 more guys with Will's heart. You know, that kind of stuff, man. That puts you up there on the cloud nine. That made you feel special. But then something happened, like, which was a big deal for me. My junior year in high school, um, I'd worked really hard to earn a starting position. And I got the starting position as right guard. And uh before the first game, man, I mean, I got sick as a dog. I mean, run at high temperature, had a f had the flu.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

And still, you know, wanted to be there, thought that was the right thing, showed up at the game that Friday night, sick as a dog, stood on the sideline to support my team, and the coach had put a senior in, um, who I hope he's not listening to his podcast, the bigger guy.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

You're talking about somebody 250 to 300 pounds versus 170 pounds. Yeah, yeah. So he's got somebody filling the gap. He wasn't an athlete, you know. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? But he put him in there, and uh, and I didn't get that starting position back for the rest of the year. I was on a scout team. I I was on special teams, got to play here and there. But dude, that that crushed me because that said something about who I am. And so there were some deep lies being formed in my life during that time too, um, just from stuff that was still happening at home. You know, because by that time, it's like I think I think there was a time before then when you looked at your family and you go, well, you know, I guess this is just how families are. You know, everybody might be going through something like this.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Yeah, I guess I guess every dad drinks a lot. Yeah. Every every dad, there's some chaos every Friday night.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah, yeah. And then and then you get to high school and you start realizing, man, this ain't normal.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

Um, there's and so there's this sense of like there's something, there's something wrong with my family and where I came from. So it was this sense of shame that came from that, right? And so I'm trying hard over here, and not just on the football field, also still trying to be a good Christian at that point. And some days you feel like you're doing well, and some days you feel like you're failing. I mean, you know, you're going through those stages, you're dating, and you know, and you're a young man and you have all these hormones raging, so you have some struggles over here, and but you really love the Lord and you're trying to do your best there, and you're trying to perform well and succeed in these things you're doing at in sports. And so, man, the message was for me is when that happened, when I lost that starting position, is like, man, it doesn't matter how hard you try, you're never gonna be enough. Man, you're never gonna be enough, and that was deep.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Dude, I'm I'm I'm as as we're sitting here thinking about this, I think that story probably resonates with most men who spent time in high school uh on the football field, on the baseball diamond, or wherever, yeah, investing in athletics because it's like you prepare, you spend so much time giving your life to like develop the skill or this ability. And the truth is, most people after that, after that last Friday night in November of the year they graduate as a senior, they'll never put a uniform on again. Right. And and and you you couple that with this hunger for a man to know he's enough. And if you find out that on that field was the only place you could find it, and then you leave that field never to go back again, and you don't have someone speaking that truth over your life, or you don't find that identity in Christ, what you find is chaos and unrest. And that man has now grown up and he's 30 or 40 or 50 or 60, and he's still trying to find his identity. Yeah, he's still trying to, he's still trying to answer the question. Am I enough? And probably the last man that's ever told him, hey, you're enough, was some coach. Thank God for our coaches, yeah, right? Like, was some coach on a high school football or baseball or wrestling team, and and this guy spends the rest of his life wondering, am I enough? And dude, I mean, you and I, we know, yeah, trying to answer that question gets us into all kinds of trouble.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Oh, yeah, yeah. You kind of get stuck, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

And so here you are, and you see somebody else who you look at and you think, he's not even really that good. And he's better than me. Yeah, like the wound from that. Hey guys, you might be wondering how you could get connected to us at Hearthemission. Well, we'd love for you to check us out at Hearthemission.com and join our email list there. We'd love to stay in touch with you about when new episodes are coming out, send you resources that you might be able to use in your leadership and ministry. Check it out at heartthemission.com.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Yeah, yeah, man. So I mean, um, you know, I think uh by the time I graduated high school, a lot of great, again, a lot of great things going on. I'm I'm still growing in my faith. Um, I met my high school sweetheart, Holly, who's my wife today.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

So a lot of great things happening. And uh, and you know, finished out as an average, average athlete, average student, did pretty well. Um, was heading to heading to college. And I think there's this thread along the way too through all this, you know, from the time I was saved to junior high to God's pursuing me. And um, he's got this call on my life. I haven't I haven't quite maybe formulated that in words yet or said it out loud, but I think deep down, I kind of know that's there in the background, but I'm also still trying to find that identity. And um, I really didn't have a huge plan for my life. I didn't know what I was gonna do my senior year as far as school or college or what I was gonna study, but I was a decent wrestler. And so the anyway, my brother was wrestling at Anderson College, and so that coach had come and watched me, and he invited me to come be on the team there. So that felt really good. It's like, all right, yeah, I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna be a college wrestler, you know, that kind of thing. And so that was the my trajectory. And then I'll never forget, man, I was sitting in um orientation with my mom and my dad in uh Anderson College, and they were kind of talking about like, what are you what are you gonna major in? And almost without even thinking about it, because I haven't like you know, surrendered to the call or anything like that. I'm like, I'm gonna be a religion major.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

That's what I'm gonna do. And so I just I walk into that, and uh man, that first semester, oh gosh, I struggled terribly, dude. Uh terribly. Um, you know, trying to be on the wrestling team, 5 a.m. workouts, afternoon workouts, biology lab, you know, all that stuff going on, and didn't really know how to study as a college student, how to work study. Um, you know, we we didn't really study at night. We'd get together to study and end up ordering Papa John's and goofing off. And I mean, I think I reverted back to a five-year-old in the way we behaved. You know, so by the end of that semester, man, I was on academic probation. Um, I didn't know what I was gonna do. But I I can't so dear, but there's some things that happened during that time as well. That that first semester, even though it was a struggle in a lot of ways, um, I mean, I would even say that I was letting things creep under the door, man, in my life. And one of those being um pornography, man. Yeah, even in my freshman year of college, um, you know, that was something that was present in our in our home. At least we found access to it at some point in our home. And then um, and then you get to college and guys just have stuff in their rooms, yeah. And you're like, hey man, watch this, or they leave a video in your room or whatever. So that's going on. And at the same time, I'm I'm struggling inwardly with what God's doing in my life. I'm failing miserably at school. Um, so it was just it was just a battle. And even my older brother at that time, we roomed, we were roommates, which I loved. That he was also going through his own struggles and was just burned out from uh from wrestling and other things in his life and ended up kind of dropping out for a semester at the end of that semester. But um, but I remember specifically um that that first semester, freshman year, I'd gone home that weekend back to my church, back to Glendale Baptist. And my childhood best friend, I grew up with him and his, you know, they were like second parents to me, him, his mom and dad, and their family. And his mom, who I thought, man, was a wonderful person, and she was a wonderful person, but a wonderful person, a great Christian example. In fact, she and I connected on kind of a deeper level because her dad was an alcoholic.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

So she kind of knew what I experienced growing up. Um, but that particular Sunday night, man, she she went forward and she was like, I don't know Jesus. Like, I come to church, I listen to Christian music, I do all these things, but I don't really know Jesus. And so she was saved, if you will, that night. And so on my drive back to school, man, I just remember like having this inward struggle going on.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

And it was almost like at first, like, am I saved? If she's not saved, am I saved? You know what?

SPEAKER_01 38:00

I'm gonna make it. Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

And I think I kind of came to grips with no, I'm I'm saved. I'm I know the Lord, but I still couldn't, I still couldn't rest. Like something in me was stirring. I really believe it was the Holy Spirit, man. He just wouldn't let me settle. And um, I go back to my room that night, and I'm by myself because at this point my brother had kind of dropped out. And I try to do some reading for a class. I couldn't focus, couldn't think straight. And I just remember I was just waiting on my friend, um, had an RA who was uh a couple years older than me. His name was Daryl McCard. He lived across the hall. And he was uh he was just a huge example for for me and some other guys too. And I couldn't wait for him to get back. He was driving back from Atlanta. I just knew I had to talk to Daryl. And so he gets back, and um, I'm already waiting outside, and I meet him before he even, you know, across the parking lot. And he's like, well man, just you know, come on in my room. And so I go in there and I start sharing with him, like, man, I don't know what's going on, dude, but here's what I'm feeling, here's what I'm thinking. And uh, and he said a prayer for me. I go back to my room, nothing's changed, man. I'm still just like wrestling.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Chaos.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

Big time. Yeah. So I go back, knock on his door again. I was like, man, I don't feel no better. Like, something ain't right. He's like, man, why don't you pray? And I remember hitting my knees in his dorm room on his couch. And dude, I just started weeping and shaking uncontrollably.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

And um, and I just said something like, God, I don't know what what it is you have for me. But I'm in, I surrender. And and I just remember weeping and crying, there's this huge release and a peace that came with that. Um, and I saw I believe that was like me surrendering to the call that God had put on my life, probably at nine years old, you know. Man, um, so that was a powerful moment for me. And and that led to me eventually, because I mean, practically I I could not handle being a college athlete, going to class, studying, all these things. I just couldn't handle all that. It was too much for me. And so I eventually I uh I decided I need to let go of wrestling and just focus on school, focus on what God called me to do. Um, and that was a that was a hard thing, but it was a positive thing because I got to be involved. Then I got to be involved in some ministry things on campus, and God did so much in my life through that.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

So during those, like during that time, like after that kind of major surrender, that was when like this trajectory towards ministry really began to take root for you.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

Yeah, yeah. That's when that began began to become real to me.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

What what were some of the things that you began to do? Like as you know, you transitioned from college, Holly, you're married. Tell me, I mean, you when did that happen? Like, were you guys still in school when you got married, or or was it after? What what about that?

SPEAKER_02 41:11

Well, we um we dated for seven years. Seven years. Excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

You dated for seven years, yeah, seven years, man.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

And um, and and this is not these this isn't bragging right, so I give Holly most of the credit. Yeah, but we did grow up during that time in youth group where they put it put a big emphasis, like the member of the true love weights and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Um, and I think that was, you know, that that had some positive influences in our life. Sure. And plus, I think both of us, when we dated, like we just we just knew like that's not what God wanted for us before marriage. And so, and and listen, like we were normal teenagers, you know, things got hot and heavy at times.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

But what was cool about that is we kind of man, we kind of grew up together. And so we were comfortable enough to go, man, we just need to pray together. Like, this is this is tough. No way. And so, yeah, well, sometimes we would just pray pray together, pray to God would protect us, that kind of thing. And uh, but mostly she smacked my hands, those kind of things, you know, to keep me in, keep me in a line.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Uh when you say you give Holly most of the credit, I think maybe all of the credits. Maybe all of the credit. Yeah, maybe all of it. Holly.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

So yeah, it's kind of crazy. Seven years of marriage, and we we get married as a virgin. So that's uh that's a I'm thankful for it, you know. Yeah, I don't I don't boast in it.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

That's not the story that most people have, you know.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Yeah, I mean, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's possible, but I don't boast in it. I I think uh yeah, that's another story, but I think too many Christians today like just are too way too loose with that, moving in together, all the whole stuff, you know. Yeah, uh maybe we need to get back to that a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Um you kind of look back and see like God carving out this pathway for you. Like what he what he was doing, this pretty and cracking. And all the while, shame, lies are kind of brewing underneath the surface in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Um because even in even in dating her before we got married, um, even though we waited until we got married, you know, there were still times, you know, again, you know, you you you cross lines, and and if you're you know trying to follow the Lord and and uh trying to please God, you know, you can start feeling some some condemnation and guilt. And so that's just another area of I'm not enough. I'm trying, but I'm not enough. And at the same time, God's call and the stuff he's doing in my life is very real, you know, and very personal.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Did did you, you know, once you guys were married, had you already taken like a ministry role somewhere? Like, like when when did you do that and how did that how did that tie in?

SPEAKER_02 43:57

Yeah, man. So as soon as um, as soon as I graduated. Graduated high school, or not high school, excuse me. Graduated college. There were a couple of things that were going to happen quickly. And one of them was marriage. Because that's what I was getting to. We'd waited a long time, man. I was 21. And so uh there wasn't no, like, yeah, I'm gonna go to seminary first. We're getting married. That's happening. So, like, I graduated in May, June 3rd. We were married. Holly still had one more year at Walford College. And um, you know, I I did again, I didn't know I could just see God's hand in all these things because I don't know if you feel this way, but looking back in those younger years, yeah, I I think in a lot of ways God was just protecting us, man, and and just taking care of us. Um, I didn't think a whole lot. I I seem to think too much today about things, you know, what am I gonna do? What's this gonna look like? How's this gonna play out?

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

Back then I wasn't thinking a whole lot. It was just like, all right, God, here we go. And you know, and he was just doing stuff. Yeah, so when I graduated, I knew I was gonna go into youth ministry.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

And so I I put a couple resumes out and had my pastor at my church. He had kind of been walking with me a little bit, look at my resume, help me with that. And uh I went to a couple of interviews. The first church was like a part-time position. And I just knew from that interview, like, man, this is some bad juju. Like, there's been a there'd been some, you know, just a lot of mess at that church. Like, I don't want to step into that. So I, you know, turned that real pretty fast. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Joking.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

Yeah, and then I and I went to another interview, which was, which was great, but this church was, they were looking for somebody who had previous experience. And at this point, like I didn't have any experience yet, you know, other than being involved in ministry in college. Um, I'd never been on staff at a church. And so at that same time, the youth pastor at my home church, he and his wife uh resigned, they were going to seminary, and so my pastor's like, Man, he knows me better than anybody, and we're friends, and he's been walking with me. He's like, Hey, why don't why don't y'all just come serve here? So maybe a week or two before I got married, he said that. Wow. And I'm like, well, give me a day or two to pray about it, you know? And we're like, man, why not? And uh, so yeah, so we get we get married June 3rd, do a honeymoon for a week. That Monday I'm sitting at the office as youth pastor, going, What do I do now?

SPEAKER_01 46:35

What do you do now?

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Yeah, like had no clue. So I just had to start thinking back on okay, what did we used to do when when I was in the youth group and and those kind of things, but yeah, so just green and didn't know, have any idea what I was doing, just knew the Lord had called me.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

And because so much of this story is connected to like you understanding more about your own identity, like I I want to help people understand or you paint a picture of some of the shame and guilt and the nature of your relationship to God in this performance-based world. Because you you literally go into ministry under that under that pressure. Yeah. Um tell tell me a little bit about like what was that like before you understood more about what it really meant to know God? Like going back like to this 12-year-old kid reading his Bible just to know Jesus. Now you packed on top of that so many, so many more types of of uh or so many, so many more ways to try to relate to God that really was connected to anything other than the gospel, anything other than grace. Um, and then now you go into ministry carrying that burden. What what was that, what was some of that? Explain that to us.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Yeah, yeah. So I would say um in those early years of ministry, um there was still there was still certainly that underlying message of, you know, I'm not quite enough, or I don't quite measure up. I don't think I had language for it at the time. I don't I didn't have the words for that. It was just kind of there, right? So now I've shifted, I think, from searching for my identity through athletics and sports, and I'd kind of moved on to some other things. Like I think now I would say that my identity was wrapped up in a couple things. Maybe on a smaller level, I when I quit sports totally, I got into deer hunting, you know. Kind of outdoors man, redneck kind of stuff. Which is great, yeah. But I but but I think there was this, even in that, like a sense of trying to find my identity, like if I can kill a deer, you know, then I'm a real man, but if I can't, then I'm not. So I think a little bit of that was going on, but on a in a bigger sense, it was like now I was trying to uh maybe find my identity in ministry. You know, by I I'm a youth pastor, it's who I am now, and and I want to be, you know, the motives aren't bad, right? But I want to be the best Christian I can be, and I want to be a good youth pastor, and those kind of things. And um, man, so for for a little while, you know, in those early years, it was it was kind of you know fun trying to figure things out and learn about myself and learn about youth ministry. Um some of the pressure, I think, as far as what you're talking about, kind of that religious performance type stuff, slowly, I think, crept in the longer I was doing ministry. And uh I think in those early years, as long as I was doing my thing at my church at Glendale, and you know, and and I'm loving on these kids there, and and God did some cool, cool things. I mean, we had some great, it was just a great time, and a lot of our kids were straight off the mill hill. I mean, just raw. And it was uh it was it was incredible. Um, I and I loved that. But I think I think um underneath some of that though, I think was still that feeling of not enough. And that came more from kind of rubbing when you rub shoulders in other environments with other guys in the ministry. And so so maybe you would go to some function, right? Maybe it was a a conference at a bigger church or a luncheon for youth pastors, and and the guys are just hanging out and and they're talking and you're hearing about ministry and you're hearing about what's happening at their church or what's happening in their youth group, immediately, you know, there was that sense of I'm on the ouch, right? That that what I'm doing is not enough or not as important as what they're doing, or I don't really know what I'm doing. I don't have this figured out. Like something again, something's wrong with me.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Something's wrong with me.

SPEAKER_02 51:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

If if I would have been, I mean, here you are, a youth pastor, trying to figure out how trying to navigate, new husband, trying to navigate. You're responsible for training these kids. I mean, I mean, can you remember like as you're training and teaching and discipling them? Like, what were some of the things you're telling them even to do with with their faith in Jesus at the time?

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Yeah. Um, yeah, I know I'd have to say those those years at at Glendale, um, man, a lot of that, a lot of that ministry was really uh really pure. Um I think after being there a few years, and this is a good thing because you start to recognize like there's there's a huge importance for um creating disciples, you know, discipleship. And I was just learning about that, like what that really means. And um so one of the things that was cool was, and it may have been overkill, but my student team, my adults, we met every week, uh, either in my home or their home, and had a meal and had Bible study and and and hung out together and really special times. And we were going through some discipleship material. So I would say the positive part of that was the relationship, right? It was so relational, and we really grew to love each other. It probably didn't matter like what discipleship material we were going through. Like that wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

The book you were reading, any of that. Yeah, you're just building connection. Well, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 53:01

That was that was the beauty of it. Yeah, that was the beauty of it. Um, but some of these discipleship materials that I started to look at, and and I won't be careful how I say this, because not these things are bad, but the emphasis was on what you do.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

What you do. Give me an example.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Yeah, well, I mean, um, you know, to be a disciple, you know, we would say just the basic stuff, right? Um, you know, quiet time every morning.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

You know, um, you need to be doing that. Um, and and you need to be teaching your youth to do that. Um, you need to memorize verses, right? Um, you know, you need to be witnessing and sharing the gospel. And all these things are true, like all these things are part of the Christian life. But it's for and maybe it's the way I'm wired too, but it became a list of things I have to do in order to feel okay about myself and to feel okay with God. And and I need to make sure that the the youth are doing these things too, and try to, you know, begin to so then you begin to take this pressure you're feeling and to put it on these kids.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

So I've gotta I've gotta perform for acceptance, right? I have to perform for validation, I have to perform um for relationship even. Yeah, and now uh not only do I have to perform, I have to make all these young people perform too, because I'm being evaluated on how well they're performing, you know, are they doing all these things? And and so understanding for the understanding for you at the time was this is how this is how it works. Like the way you know God more is you do more good things.

SPEAKER_02 54:51

Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I think um, yeah, I think I carried that mindset for a while because that's what you heard everywhere you you know, everywhere you were turning. Because there was a and maybe it was during that time, I don't know. Uh, because I graduated in 2000, so you're talking about from 2000, 2003, at least in my neck of the woods, um, with youth ministry, as it was becoming more popular too, the emphasis was shifting from this event-driven youth ministry, which was great, to discipleship, but there was all these different packages of that, right? What that looks like, what the what you know, what it looks like to be a good disciple or the right kind of disciple for Jesus. I mean, there was just so many people putting out stuff, and you'd go to another conference and go to this conference, and you need, you know, if you're gonna have a good youth ministry, you need to look this way or it needs to look that way. And um, and I even joke around um coming out of the grace-based counseling um when I was part of Grace Life International, we would we would teach these uh freedom conferences, and one of the things that that I would share with them was um, you know, talking about this in particular was I can remember going to different conferences, different retreats. Sometimes it would be specific for youth, but sometimes it might just be something you go to with your church staff, and it might be like a marriage conference. So, so now it's adding, right? It's not just uh you need to be having your quiet time every morning and memorizing scripture and witnessing and all these other things, but you go to a marriage conference and they give you another list of 10 steps for best Christian marriage, and and you not only need to be having your own personal devotional, but if you're married, you need to be having a couple's devotional. Of course you do. And then when you have a family, you need to be having family devotional. Yeah, and I'm not saying any of these things are bad, they're not bad. Like, if God leads you to do that, I mean, I think that's a that's a wonderful thing to do. Um, but for me, it just kept compounding like that pressure, like, man, there's just more and more and more to do that I can't keep up with. But I kept trying. It was again that sense of not measuring up, not hitting the mark, but man, I'm trying hard.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

It's almost like, you know, here you are in ministry. If anybody should have it figured out, it should be the guy who's, you know, got the degree, had gone through the systems and come through, and now he's on staff at the church. He should have it figured out.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

And now here you are learning, like, okay, the man, I'm every conference I go to, I just get another, I just get another list of things I need to be doing to be a good youth pastor. Or I gotta, I gotta keep up with this book or that book, and I gotta teach this discipleship program and that discipleship program. Oh, yeah, and on top of that, man, I'm managing my relationship with God in the same way that if I do this and then I'm keeping him happy, and then I gotta teach my kids how to keep God happy. Like that pressure over the years has got to be unsustainable, right? At some point in time, it just doesn't feel free like hearing you talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 58:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It definitely starts to starts to build up, but for a long time, you know, you just you just stay on the treadmill because that's all you know. All you know. I mean, these things have to be, this has got to be right. Like you can't argue with reading the Bible, spending time with God, praying, telling people about Jesus. Like you can't argue about those things, but everything had a system. I mean, even as far as like you think about witnessing, how many programs are there about how to evangelize and how to witness? Well, that turned into another set of steps, right? Yeah, it was just step after step. So, yeah, absolutely, man. It just starts, um, it starts compounding and starts building up over time.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Um and I think those things, it sounds like really lead you away from like real relationship with God. Eventually, yeah. And I don't mean like obviously the Bible prayer and relational quiet time leads you to the heart of God. Right. But but our motivation for performing is the thing that can drive us away. So here you are, you're living in that cycle. When was it that you started hearing about a different way?

SPEAKER_02 59:23

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I'll just say this too. Really, what we're talking about, you end up kind of uh disillusioned about who you are and and who God is, I think, in that process. Begin to lose sight of that purity of what I experienced at 11 years old. It's like, you want to know God? Read the Bible. You know, you start kind of losing that sight of that, and you go, man. So yeah, I um after three years at being at being at the church, serving at the church that that Holly and I grew up in, we're married at, um some interesting things were going on. This was during the time we were starting our own family, and we uh were we're talking about adoption, and uh we're in the process of that. And Holly's like, she's teaching high school at this point, teaching uh uh science, chemistry, biology in high school. And she's like, I think, you know, I think I want to be at home with the kids when we have when we have a family, start a chip starter family. And um, and I'm like, okay, I'm like, and again, you know, you're young, God's taking care of you so far, so you're like, sure, man, we'll uh figure this thing out, God will take care of it. And uh, and then we're sort of in the process of adopting and we get pregnant, and she's like, and I think God's calling me to homeschool, which was very different for us because both of us grew up public school, and only homeschoolers I knew at that point were weird, you know. Yeah, yeah. I had a little bit of a little bit of reservation because I'm like, I don't want my kids to grow up weird, you know, get made fun of. But God was really putting on that that in her heart, and I'm like, well, we'll just we'll trust the Lord. So at the little church I was at, right, just practically speaking, um my salary wasn't gonna be able to take care of a family, and also they couldn't provide insurance for us and those kind of things. Holly provided our insurance, so we both were working full-time. It was a different story, but now that she was coming home, it's like, okay, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do? And again, there was some sweet things going on because it was still like a very real authentic trust in Jesus. So I'm like, all right, guy, what are we gonna do? Um, and first thought was, am I supposed to go to seminary now? And which that didn't make a lot of sense because okay, you're gonna spend more money doing that. And I I put her I put an application out for seminary, they called, and of course they said, Yeah, we'll accept you, and of course they will.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:46

You're the perfect guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:47

Yeah, they'll take your money. And uh, but real quick, I was like, I felt nothing, like I just no desire to go to seminary whatsoever. And I'm like, this don't even make sense. Why am I gonna go deeper in debt, you know? Yeah, and um, so I didn't even put out a resume. Okay. I just started praying, and I'm not exactly sure all the angles God used. I know at this time the pastor I served under at Glendale was he had been there for a long time and he was moving to another church that he just retired from, actually. And um, and I think maybe a pastor reached out to him, Jim Oliver at Bethlehem Baptist Church, and and Kenny was like, Hey, I know the perfect guy. I didn't know that two years later. But I'm coming back from summer camp, and uh Jim calls and he's like, Hey, we're looking for a youth guy. You're interested in talking, and I'm thinking, well, this has got to be God because you know, I just I'm just praying.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

So I step into that man. And long story short, like God knew exactly what he was doing. I kept, I got to continue doing what he called me to do, full-time youth, provided a home for us, had plenty of room for a family to grow, and we did grow during that time. Um, and you're gonna have to forgive me. I'm trying to share this for a reason leading up, but go back to your previous question again for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, so I'm I'm I when did when did like the shift start taking place? Um as you're you know, you're kind of painting this picture of how yeah, um you're walking along, um, building a family, take this new role under Jim. And um really you you have kind of built a a practical theology that was hard to manage.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:35

And then when did you start thinking or feeling about a there may be a different message, a different way to live?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:44

Yeah, yeah, and so so God got us there to Bethlehem Baptist, where's actually where I'm serving. We never really left, maybe what for a year to come to the church you planted here in Woodruff, and then we went back to our home church. But uh, but so we're there at Bethlehem and um loving it, enjoying it, great environment to work in, but still these undercurrents, you know, going on of trying to perform. Um again, probably didn't have words for all that at the time, probably didn't even know exactly that's what I was doing, but still trying to find identity in what I was doing. So kind of taking that same model of what I'd began to learn at Glendale, like discipleship is important, and it is um, and kind of running with that. And and even at Bethlehem, I think I was introduced through not necessarily through the preaching at Bethlehem, but just through different people, different places, you know, introduced again to like discipleship, even on another level. Um, you know, having people talk to, you know, hey, you gotta you gotta have these kids serving, you gotta have them doing this, you gotta, you know, working harder. Yeah, you gotta have all these different elements in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:59

Again, a lot of great things happening, man, in the ministry, and God's working through me and using me and working my life, all that's very real, but still that um that try harder kind of thing. And so I I don't know if I'll get all these details in exact chronological order, but um but a few things that began to happen, this was probably after, I don't know, three or four years serving at Bethlehem. Um, but I do remember one night we used to have small groups and homes, which were were awesome, and I was taking the kids through uh a discipleship uh book that was written, and it's going through the things you're supposed to do. And uh it and I and I'll say this too you know, there are some people when you get when you present this kind of a method to discipleship, the list, if you will, there are some people who love that and do great at it. And there are some people who try really hard but keep failing miserably, and so there's Only one or two things that can lead to. One is self-righteousness, right? Like, look at me, man. I'm I got it going on. I don't know what's wrong with the rest of you guys. And then there's the rest of us who are going, man, I suck. I can't measure up. And that was more me. But I remember one night sitting in a circle with the teenagers, and we were supposed to memorize a verse for that night. And I'm like, so who memorized their verse? And everybody's kind of looking around at each other. I'm like, that's okay because I didn't either. And I think that was the first moment that I ever like getting finally getting real.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:35

Huh.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:36

In that moment. It was like, you know what? I didn't memorize it either. Um, and I don't remember anything else after that. I just remember opening up and sharing that, you know, like it's all right, but I didn't do it either. And um so, so I think just in my own walk with God, I began to wrestle with some of these feelings and wrestle with some of these things. And something that so something that happened that was sort of integral was um this is kind of crazy, and and I'm not anti-chewing tobacco or dipping or smoking. In fact, I'll get a dip occasionally. Now I have a nicotine pouch in my lip right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're we're not sponsored by any nicotine pouch.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:19

No, we're not sponsored by that nicotine.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:20

Andrew, we don't we don't put up put up, don't put the website up.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:23

But I highly recommend it because you can pop one of these in during church or while you're teaching and nobody ever knows.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But uh also not sponsored by the podcast. This is an official position as far as.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

I'm sorry. So uh so but anyway, man, I when playing football, right? I'm looking up to these coaches to go back to high school. Yeah. And uh and when I lose my starting position, I'm kind of bummed. So I'm on the bus, you know, riding to the games, running up for special teams back on the sideline. So a bunch of the guys chewed tobacco and dipped, the coaches did it. So I picked up um dipping uh on the bus. So I kind of began to form that habit when I was 15 or 16.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:06

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:06

So I carried that with me for years. So I'm in the ministry and I'm still doing that, you know. Only a few special friends knew that I did it. Other than that, I know I hid it well.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:17

And so, but but after a deep, dark, hidden seek in life.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:21

Oh, yeah, which was Copenhagen and Skull Bandit, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:27

Um, but but I think for me, like I began to go, man, I've I I'm I'm still trying to please God, still trying to make him happy and don't feel like I'm quite doing that. Like I tell people all the time, like I felt pretty good about me and Jesus, because he's the one who died on the cross, and there's that whole personal relationship. But when I thought of God the Father, even though they're all the same, yeah, it felt as if he was distant. And like no matter how hard I tried, he was always kind of shaking his head, going, Man, when are you gonna get it together?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:58

Yeah. Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:59

You know, like he loved me, but probably didn't like me a whole lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:01

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:03

So my little last ditch effort, I think, and and it wasn't all bad. It was some health free, you know, health concerns too, you know, as far as tobacco, I was like, man, if I can put this down.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:14

If I can quit dipping.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:15

If I can quit dipping, maybe then the Lord will finally be pleased, you know. He'll be happy, he'll be happy with me. So I go on this journey of trying to quit dipping.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:26

And uh, I mean, you know, hey, the the nicotine patches, gum, the whole deal.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:32

And and we're rocking along with that. And me and a buddy, we go to this um high school, it was like in the spring, high school passing league, and like they have several high schools out there on the field at I think it was at USC Upstate, have him out on the field, and there's some shorts and and and and helmets, and just kind of seeing who they got for the season, you know. Yeah. So we go hang out, just watching. And uh, my old football coach was there, and I and I love him, great guy. Still love him today, but it's the one I lost my starting position under, but I still highly respect him, like him a lot, and uh uh probably even still like you feel like a little boy sometimes with regular football coaches, you know what I mean? He can be 40 years old and it's like, yes, sir, yeah. Well, and you're still looking to them like for you know that validation as a man, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:22

Tell me I'm good enough. Yeah, exactly. You wanted to put a jersey on that. Oh, so bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:28

Yeah, you would have died. Yeah, and so anyway, I bump into him after the thing's over, and and we're talking, it's and it's really good to see him, and it feels good to talk to him. And this other cat walks up that I played high school football with. He was a little younger than me, not sharing any names here because he might listen to the podcast. But just kind of came across, man, really arrogant, walks up in that conversation, butts into it. Okay, and then kind of, I don't even remember what he said, but just made one of those jokes, you know, but belittled me in front of the coach.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:04

Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:05

And it was like, it was crazy because now I'm vulnerable, right? I don't have no nicotine in my system. And it was like all those old feelings, man, just flood over me. Not enough. Don't measure up, you know, all that stuff. Like I just felt so small, so small, and uh, and I remember at that in that moment just being angry. So I go um to my truck, get in my truck. The first thing I do is I drive to the closest gas station, get a can of dip, put my pacifier in my lip, you know, and I'm riding down the road and I'm dipping and I'm fuming, and and that even makes me mad. So I'm like, this is stupid, and I throw it out, throw the whole can out the window. And I go home to my wife and my kids, and and by this time, we have five kids under five at our house. Wow. Because we had, you know, anyway, adopted, twins, whole thing. I know it seems impossible. We got five kids under five. And I go home, and I think my father-in-law is in the backyard with my two daughters, and I don't speak to my wife, I don't speak to my kids, I don't speak to anybody, and I've never done that before, never since. But something's happening. It kind of goes back to, you know, sort of that moment, my freshman year in college, like something's happening, and I don't know what it is. But at that point, I'm just angry. And so I go straight to my bedroom. Um, I remember I had khaki shorts on and a polo shirt, you know, because you, you know, that whole youth ministry looked back then.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:00

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:00

And my new balance is on. Yeah, man, absolutely. And uh, and that was a whole nother thing, too. That looking to other youth pastors trying to build that identity. But um, man, I kick my shoes off. It's 5:30 in the afternoon, daylight still outside, not nowhere near dark. And uh I close the door, get in the bed, and pull the covers up over my head. And my wife comes in to check on me, and whatever I say to her was not nice. I don't remember what I said, but she leaves and she doesn't come back. And I don't leave that spot 5:30 until the next morning. And I just think I was angry, I was depressed, if you will. Like I was just done, man. And it's kind of crazy because you go, you know, you know, you think about the things that are going on, it's like, man, and it's not like Will's out there peddling crystal meth or, you know, or anything crazy like that, or going to strip clubs. Like, I was a pretty good dude. You know what I mean? Uh if from the outside looking in and love the Lord and loved my family and was trying to genuinely serve these kids at the church. But I don't know what it is of something in me, though, that I mean, I I really wanted to please God. Like, if I was gonna follow him, like I want to be a good Christian, man. I wanted to do what was right. And uh, and I just remember in that moment telling God, and I wasn't, it wasn't nice. Like, I mean, it was just it was coming from a very raw place. I was like, God, I I've tried. I tried to live the Christian life, I tried to please you, I've tried to be a good dad, tried to be, and and and I can't do it, I'm done. I quit. Like I was throwing in the towel mentally, emotionally, in my mind. I mean, I guess I was gonna go resign the next day from ministry, like I was done, man. It's like I can't do it, so I'm out. And then something unexpected happened. And even as I think back on it now, I was thinking about this the other day, sitting my deer blind. Like, I can't explain that moment. Because I didn't do anything to make it happen. I wasn't asking for anything to happen. Um, didn't work anything up, it's just where I was, it was very real. And sometime in that space, in that night, God spoke to me in a way that I've never experienced before. It wasn't audible, but it might as well have been. Um, and he even used some words. It's what's crazy about it, he wasn't angry. He wasn't frustrated, he wasn't angry, he wasn't disappointed. In fact, he used some words with me almost jokingly because as I'm trying to quit dipping it to make myself more pleasing to him, I would sometimes say, God, what do I have to quit this? It's just a silly can of tobacco leaves. And this is exactly what he said to me. And he used words. This is what's crazy too, he used words with me that I didn't even think about at that time. Again, like these, these, these lies and messages and things I'm verbal, you know, verbalizing right now. I didn't have words for those back then. This was all feelings, this was all gut stuff going on. I was a youth pastor with family, having fun. I wasn't counseling, I didn't use counseling type words. And he said, Will, I'm not, he said, I'm not freeing you from a silly can of tobacco leaf. He said, I'm freeing you from fear and guilt and worry and anxiety and insecurity and inadequacy, all those words.

unknown 1:16:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:59

So you can be free to love me and love others. And that went through my head like a record player all night. And I can't tell you what parts happened when I was awake and what parts happened when I was asleep. But it was like Be careful, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:15

We're Baptists.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:16

Yeah, but dude, it was like he allowed me to see like the depravity of my flesh, sin. Like, yeah, I think that's what it means when Jesus said, Blessed are those who are uh spiritually bankrupt or poor in spirit. Like I was at that place, and at the same time, he let me see and experience his love and grace in a way that was real and tangible in a way I'd never experienced before in my life. And it was so real, man. I still can't, it's hard to even explain that to people. It's hard to put into words. Um, the next morning when I woke up, I felt like I was like confessing this huge sin, but I think it was more like this just huge weight or burden was falling off of me.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:08

And so I remember getting each of my kids, and even them, they didn't know what was going on. And I'm just like, you know, I'm sorry, and I love you, and I just keep crying, you know, and told my wife the same thing. And that day, um, I can remember being in my truck and just driving down the road, and there was this hope and this joy and this peace that was coming over me. And I I would say things to God like, I don't know what happened, but something something's changed. And it kind of felt like when David talks about having a new song in my heart, and that's what it felt like to me. And I like, and again, I was like, God, I don't know where we're going, but something's different. And so that was sort of the beginning of my journey into grace.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:00

You've been set at that point on a new trajectory, a new way of life.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:06

That has really defined your so much of your ministry and life and what you're investing your time and what you have invested your time into. And kind of walk through that now. Like just give me some highlights of like, hey, what does what does it look like to know and be known under this new banner of the gospel of grace that you that you that you so passionately believe in?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:35

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'd have to say the I think the the first part of that, and and this didn't happen immediately after that that event I just shared with you. Like after that event, it was a year, two, three years, God is like unfolding things, and everything is like, it's like I was seeing everything with in in color for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:58

It's like I've been asleep and now I was awake. It almost was like you were born again, again, kind of thing. That's the only way I can explain it. Um, but he starts opening up all these things to me that I I didn't even know. And one of those, the big piece of that was you have this new identity in Christ, in me, you know. And uh that was so transformative for me. Something that I had never heard growing up in the church my entire life. I'd never heard identity in Christ. Never. I mean, maybe I had this vague idea that you know I was his child. Um, but but this truth of no, you that I that Jesus is saying, no, I actually changed you the moment you said yes. So at nine years old, when all I understood was I'm a sinner and Jesus is the only one who can save me, that moment He made me a new person with a brand new identity. And so as God began to unfold that identity, like for example, you don't work to become more holy. I've made you holy. You don't work to become more righteous. Righteousness is a gift. You're already accepted because of me. You can't get any more loved than you are. You're a new person, a new creation. I started like I started feeling that. It wasn't just a head thing, like, man, it was like, oh my gosh. The way God sees me is so different from the way I saw me. And it and it doesn't have anything to do with my performance. So one of the first things that did for me is for the first time ever, I felt free to be Will Gunter. For the first time ever, I felt like I was free to be comfortable in my own skin. Whereas before I was constantly trying to, if I'm with this group of people or I'm with this person, you know, which hat do I put on? And you do that without even thinking, you know, it's like you put on a mask because you know what people, you think you know what these different people need from you because you want to be liked, you want to be acceptable, you don't want to be rejected. And man, that was so freeing to be able to step in, and just use the example of youth ministry, to be able to step in there with my little small group on Wednesday night or whatever, and to go, I don't have to try to be anybody else but me. And Jesus wants to live through me. And so the first part of that sense of being known and belonging, I had to receive it first. You know, I had to receive that from me that I'm known and that I belong. And then it began to change the way I see and relate to other people. Because I think before, if you're under that performance base, like even in ministry, it's like, all right, if I have, if I have, and it, because we didn't have a huge youth group, but if I have 30 kids here tonight or 40 kids here tonight, man, I'm doing something. I'm all right, I must be performing pretty well. But if I have 20 or 15 show up, man, I suck. But something shifted, and and one of the things that shifted for me was I don't care how many kids I have here tonight. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna love the ones that God puts in front of me. Because that's the ones that matter, because they're real people, and God cares about each and every one of them. And I think that was the beginning of God making me safer for people, you know, to enter into their lives, because now it's like, and this happens slowly, but over time, because a lot of times in ministry, if we're being honest, and there's a lot of pastors that minister this way, good intentions, but I think the reason you get a lot of pressure and fear and guilt and manipulation is because I they need you to do something for them. I need something from you so that I can feel okay about me. But when you can get to a place where you're like, no, I'm okay because of Jesus, I don't need anything from you to be okay. Now I can really minister and love you. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:37

Dude, I'm I uh it it's it's such a contrast from a works-based, performance-based connection to God that a lot of us grew up with. And we come along into ministry and we come to this part of our lives to where we sometimes without knowing it, have developed a belief system that our value is based on our performance. And that our um our missional impact in the world is directly connected to how many people we've been able to gather in the room. And there's all different kinds of rooms that we might be able to minister to, right? And some will be nearly empty and some will be nearly full, but the truth is neither one of those rooms define our value and our identity of who God has made us to be in Christ. Yeah. And in Christ, we have everything we need. And that's the story I hear you telling.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:39

As we kind of bring this thing to a close, I I want you to think about that leader or pastor who may feel alone and distant without a friend, maybe not, maybe not even knowing where he stands before God. Like, yeah, what would you say to that guy?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:06

Yeah, well, the first thing I would say is uh you're not alone. And I think that's the first thing that you're not crazy and you're not alone because uh there's a whole bunch more of you out there like that. And and you and I can still get into those places, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:22

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:23

Yeah, we can still have those those feelings. Um we we're just learning how learning how to come back to the starting point, learning how to come back to truth. Um but yeah, I you know, I'm I'm I'm it's it's hard to know the exact words that I would want to say to them uh right off, but I would say, man, I wish they could find, I wish they could find somebody that they could build a trust relationship with that's not based on religion, that's not based on performance. I'm not talking about an accountability partner here. Somebody that goes, hey, did you read your Bible this morning? Did you memorize your scripture? How many days has it been since you looked at something on your phone?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:08

I'm not talking about that kind of a deal. I'm talking about uh a real, authentic relationship where you feel safe to be yourself and you know that the other person's not gonna judge you, but they're they'll speak truth to you, even if it's hard truth, but they're always gonna do it from a place of love and grace. And so um, man, if I could encourage them with anything, it would be probably to encourage them by just maybe sharing a little bit about what we've experienced, I think. Um, and and I think that's a gift from God, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:47

And and it's not impossible, uh, because you and I were a little bit intentional about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:52

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:53

Um, so I think that I think maybe sharing that a little bit that, you know, when you and I first met. Well, we knew each other from kind of from a distance. Um, and I knew a little bit about your story, some of the struggles you went through. We kind of had this thing in common with uh anxiety. And I checked up on you a couple of times, and you heard about me kind of out here struggling a little bit, and you checked up on me on me, and we got together and we're talking and we have this commonality. And probably I don't know if we have time to talk about it, but we go on this trip together because we both love John Lynch and love the message they shared. That was an epic trip.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:35

The two roads message. Google it on YouTube. Oh gosh. It was the thing that really connected us.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:39

Yeah, it really was. It really was. And and what's cool too is then and even now, as far as like theology, like we may not see everything eye to eye, right? But we have some things in common, which is man, we believe beyond a shadow of doubt that uh it's about Christ's performance and what he did for us and not anything we could ever do for ourselves, you know? It's all his grace. And he's in us all the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:11

I was saying this yesterday, man. I think my downfall out of ministry um in in in the town where we sit, really came through isolation and pride. And my God bringing me back came through high trust. And it came through not just trusting who he said about me, but it came to trusting trusting you, yeah, and what that relationship looked like with confessing sin, encouraging one another in our identity. Like it, as I said when we started this out, man, that that's been so valuable to me. So valuable.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:54

Yeah, me too, man. Yeah, we could, I hope we got time to share at least one or two stories of that. But um, you know, I think going back and talking to that pastor or that youth pastor or whoever who feels isolated and alone, I would have to say this first. If if some of this stuff we're talking about sounds a little bit like, well, maybe a little different, but something in you is going, yeah. Uh-huh. There's something about that that sounds right, then the first thing I would encourage you with is somehow start pursuing that. You know, ask God to reveal that to you, His grace and in your identity and some of these truths we're talking about. And this isn't a plug for me. Um, but hey, if you're a local pastor, man, I I can I'd love to sit down with you and share more.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:49

Where would they be able to find you? How would they get in contact with you, Will? A local pastor who might be interested in some personal grace-based counseling, where would they be able to find you?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:57

Yeah, well, right now um I'm at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Roebuck, South Carolina. Um, I don't even know if I can remember my uh new email right off. Um post it up on the right now I still have the real you ministries uh.org that you could get in touch with me. I believe that's right. Or is it at real you ministries at gmail.org.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:17

You might should know the website to your own deal. But I mean, I'm not judging. That's not fear and condemnation coming at you. Yeah, well, it's a good thing I know my comments in Christ. But hopefully pastors will be able to get in touch with you. Well, yeah. And then then, man, I've got I got something I want to say to you. But but I I remember one one day, like I'm always struggling about whether or not I'm I'm enough as a dad. And and I I feel like I'm constantly like making huge mistakes as a father, like yelling at my kids or or isolating away or whatever I'm doing. But I'm I remember one one day one of my kids got into some like not crazy trouble, but some decent trouble at school to where I got a phone call to come down there. And I was on my way to go down there, and I don't know what I was gonna do. I know I was angry, and I was gonna leverage every bit of power and manipulation over that 10-year-old boy that I thought I could. And I called you on the way, I was like, bro, I need you to pray for me because I am so and you heard it. You heard it in my voice. And dude, I'll never forget what you told me. You said, Man, go in there and give him grace because that's what you need. And take him to lunch and tell him how much you love him. I went in there, and it totally, it was like grace washed over me. And I went in there and I got that kid who was already crying, and you know what I was gonna do? I was gonna go in there and put more on him.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:58

Yeah. Oh, you're gonna feel weight? Here's some weight. Yeah. And I picked him up and I drove him down the road, and we had lunch, and I didn't say a word about what happened. We just talked the next day. I came back and we were like, hey, bro, we can't be doing this or the other. But that moment, I gave him what I needed, which is grace.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:25

And man, dude, that was a gift from you to me. And that gift I gave him. And that that gift of grace, that's what I want for pastors.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:35

And I want that freedom and relationship, freedom from the fear of being found out, freedom from the fear of their uh building some kind of hidden life where they're, you know, they're they're dipping Copenhagen in the corner, afraid that somebody's gonna find out about them, man. Yeah, come over to my house, we'll dip the guy. You can be known and know others and experience that freedom in your life. Will something's important to me through what I'm doing is pastors and leaders understanding their identity and who they are. And I think I identify that as blessing. I just I just like to take a moment and speak a blessing over you. A blessing is just recognizing somebody's God-given gifts, speaking that over their future. And do for you, like, not I don't mean this just what you mean to me personally. Like, honestly, like besides my wife, like, man, if if it wouldn't have been for you and and and one or two other friends that God put around me, I don't know that I would have quite literally survived uh since two 2015. Like, I just don't know that I'd have survived. Yeah, but I'm grateful for that. But what I see in you, more than maybe anybody else I know, is you are one of the most authentic people that I've ever met in my life. I have never, ever once seen you pretend to be something that you're not. I have never once seen you gear up for a moment to try to act like you're better than you really are. And when I'm doing that, you usually chill me out to be like, it's all right to be you. Coming in here today, man, just how you roll in and you're comfortable and who God's made you to be, man, that is one of the most encouraging things. And how God's using you with other leaders, pastors, um, Christians is incredible that you're able to speak that grace over their life. And I know that he's using you for that, and I know that he's using you with your kids, with your family, and I pray that God would um continue to do greater than you could ever imagine through your ministry. Will, I love you. I'm grateful for you, and thank you for coming on this podcast today, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:56

Yeah, man, this was uh a lot of fun. I appreciate you invite me, and I love you too. Don't you mean wink at you like that again?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:03

I like to wink.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:04

I like you would. I knew you would. We'll cut it. No, man. Though the words you just shared, that that means a lot to me, and I appreciate it. That makes me very affirming.