Lukonga Lindunda on Fostering Innovation and Entrepreneurship Through Technology

In this episode of Humanise, Lukonga Lindunda, Co-founder and Executive Director of BongoHive, shares his perspective on the transformative power of innovation, entrepreneurship, and digital technology in shaping Zambia's future.

He discusses how nurturing startups and supporting innovators are creating solutions to local challenges, generating employment opportunities, and driving sustainable economic growth. Lukonga also highlights the importance of building a collaborative innovation ecosystem, strengthening digital skills, and fostering partnerships between the public and private sectors to empower the next generation of entrepreneurs and accelerate Zambia's journey towards a vibrant, inclusive, and digitally driven economy.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Hello and welcome to the Humanize Podcast brought to you by Infotel. My name is Amina Kaunda, and you're joining us in studio today with Mr. Lukonga Lindunda, the co-founder and CEO of Bungle Hive, Zambia's pioneering technology and innovation hub that has shaped the country's startup ecosystem. Under his leadership, Bungle Hive has become the launch pad for bold ideas, empowering entrepreneurs and innovators to turn vision into impact and drive Zambia's digital transformation journey. Welcome to the Human Eyes Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Thank you. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Great. Alright, so let's start with the personal journey. It kind of gives a more human face to the discussion we're about to get into. So let's talk about who Lucomba is, your journey, and how you got to where you are today.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Yeah, uh, it's quite a long story. I was born and raised in Dola on the Copper Belt. Um so went to school there. Um, one of the I think interesting bits uh that changed my life when was when my mom came back home with a computer. I was in grade eight at that time, it's a desktop. Um, you may know the name, it's a compact presario, you may not know the name.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

You may not know the name.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Um but it was running Windows 95 at that time, and I had the opportunity to just play around with it, break it apart, uh, install you know software. And it it made me realize that there was something interesting um that I could pursue. Um initially I wanted to do accounting. And when we got this computer, I thought to myself, hmm, you know, really.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Yeah, yeah. It sounds like your aha moment.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Yes, yeah, it was a big aha moment. And uh it got me thinking that I could pursue a career a career in in tech.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

On IT. And that was a the big one. Um, then I decided, of course, to pursue a um uh degree in in information systems, spent some time in in South Africa, came back, and uh the first few few moments um I think looking for a job and trying to fit in uh was also quite interesting because I I got to work with a number of uh Zambian startups. Um maybe that is one of the reasons why I eventually got to uh uh really support startups because my experience then um working in tech startups was there's there was something missing, right? Um and so I I got some experience there, eventually ended up in the not-for-profit sector. Okay. Uh worked for uh a couple of uh projects in in the education sector. What was interesting about that as well was I got the chance to really work in under-resourced environments.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Interesting, okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Um, and you know, you you you get a qualification in tech and then you go to spaces, places where they don't have uh a radio signal or uh you know uh telecoms or mobile network uh signal and they lack the basics, and you have to ask yourself how can these people actually use tech? Exactly. Um and so it was very interesting in the education sector because we were training uh teachers at that time, and and I was tasked with um you know introducing technology in such uh spaces. But one of the big moments as well was when um in the middle of nowhere, I remember we're in Fumwe in Northwestern province, and you go to a community school and literally nothing happened. Yeah, and we had conversations further on with um my eventual co-founder around what could Zambians do to uh solve problems for themselves, right? And uh the dynamics of course of working in the not-for-profit entity with uh international funding is you know, there's always someone else who thinks they know better, right? And and I was thinking to myself, we could do something about this um scenario. And it then motivated us uh because the model that we then chose uh Bongo High was around giving opportunities to people who have great ideas to bring them to life in different ways. But the underlying idea there was if you have seen problems around, maybe the people that experiencing the problems also have ideas, right? It's not always about someone else who has more money or better education, and so that was the premise. Um, and so it motivated me to think about solving that problem.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

And so that whole background of me being exposed to technology, um, the technology found a context for it to and eventually we we started Bongo High because of that simple uh sort of problem, understanding of a problem, yeah, highlighting something and then looking at it.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Now, of course, I think it's fair to say that Bongo Hive has become a sort of symbol for possibility, especially for tech startups and innovators in Zambia. Everybody knows Bongo Hive, you're now essentially a tech startup household name, if we can put it that way. So, in moments where you know you've spoken about working in the not-for-profit sector, and these are people who maybe don't have the resources or the basics in order to push their ideas. What is something that's actually kept you motivated to say, let's just keep pushing this? Because at some point we're going to get somewhere, and also you have to keep inspiring the people who are bringing these innovations. There's a little element of hopelessness sometimes when you don't have the resources. So, what is the motivating factor for those things?

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Uh, my motivating factor.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yours and maybe how you share that motivating factor with others.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

So, in the very beginning at Ubongo Hive, we we found the model um which put people at the center. Um, it didn't matter whether you were and you've seen us hold events and train people or you know, people start businesses. But the most important thing was that all that couldn't happen uh without people. And when people uh find the opportunity to grow, when they create success stories and self-actualization, so they they realize internally that if I do this, I become a better person, I have an impact on society, my business is not just about money, but you create jobs, income, people get better. That becomes a recurring factor because today you might be an employee or you may not have a job. Tomorrow you have a job next year, I'll start a business, right? So things are changing within you and around you, and that always motivates people when they see that they are improving their own lives and the lives of the people around them.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Okay, uh, of course, every entrepreneur goes into uh a venture with a type of idea, and sometimes it can be referred to as idealistic. So when you were forming Bungle Hive, what was the the idyllic sentiment or idyllic idea that you had, and what were some of the things that brought you back down to reality to say, oh, okay, so this is how I have to restructure my business.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Yeah, um so we we I I did a lot of research, right, to try and figure out okay, what's the best way of executing this wonderful idea? Um, with a lot of research, I got the opportunity to spend a week in Nairobi. At that time, Nairobi was buzzing, they had just stopped selling feature phones, they just you know decided we're doing smartphones. There was a hundred dollar smartphone, I remember, that was on the market then and I was in that environment and everything just looked perfect because there was a lot of funding from your Microsoft and all that. Everyone was talking about you know the internet boom, mobile and uh boom as well. And I asked a few questions to the you know the big partners, big big uh tech companies there. I asked them why why can't we do this in Zambia? And then he said, but what are you doing yourself? Right. You can imagine getting that type of answer from someone at Google, right, or at Microsoft. Yeah, well, we want to see you do something first, right? Before we can ever um support you, yeah, and that you know, if you of those uh responses, um, when I got back, um that that's what made us actually start. Okay, you know, when you go to someone who you think has money, has everything, and they tell you that it's not there, you know. You just think, oh, just have the money and then it just exactly, and and it it gave us a um a clear mark as to or target what we needed to do. And so uh came back and and literally picked up uh or used a small room, sorry, at the Ministry of Education, Development Center. And um that was one opportunity where we just started doing stuff, no one was getting paid, we've all volunteers, we all figured, hey, let's just get a bunch of young people in this room, yeah, and let's just see how we can help uh each other. And and from there, um, and we'll talk about this a lot more. Um, two years later, I went back to Google's office in Cape Town and they gave us you know a bit of money, yeah, $25,000. But the idea that you can go back, listen to advice, like listen to advice, go back, do something, and go back to the person and say, hey, I've done something now. Exactly. Can you help me? Yeah, that for me is is is what changed, I think, our narrative, not just from thinking about the idea, but really taking into consideration a lot of advice and doing whatever we could with what we have had at that time.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

What are some challenges that actually made you have to rethink uh the venture that you were in? So maybe something that happened where you just thought, oh, okay, so this model is not really working, we have to restructure it and take it that way.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Um there was there were a lot of fun things that we were doing. Yeah, you know, in the early days, I remember we would have what we call hackathons where people were. Yes, I remember builders. Yeah, I think the first hackathon, nothing really happened, like but people had pizza and and and nice drinks and all that.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

They had fun, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

They had fun, yeah. Um, and over time we realized that we'll we were running um activities, but businesses were not being buried. Okay, right. So people coming through and they're they're talking about their wild ideas, but they were not starting businesses, and and so we changed our model kind of for four years on. Um one of the reasons is because we we we got some more people around us that helped us think through what we were doing, yeah. And we we got a few partners who helped us um sort of put together more structure at what we were doing. And I remember four years on, we started running programs where people could apply with an idea and say, Look, I I want you to help me, and then they would go through a whole program, or that was two weeks or three months, and they would get the support they needed. Okay, and eventually we started seeing, oh, okay, people actually, you know, uh now starting uh businesses. Yeah, remember this is four years on from the whole idea that if we just put people in one room, they wouldn't have to be able to do something, but brainstorming just take place. Yeah, it makes sense um from an idea perspective, but from the people that were coming through, they were just not getting anything meaningful. Um, well, you could argue that they were getting something meaningful, yeah, but not the scope, not the full scope of adding vision especially. Exactly. So we had to learn a lot um and adapt a lot of what was what would come you know best practices from across the world, contextualize that, yeah. Um and the thinking was now it's not just uh it's a fun thing, you're not trying to save the world, yeah, you're not beginning to run a business. Exactly. And I think that was a big, big switch in our in our in our thinking was that in as much as we were passionate about trying to help people, whatever we're doing needed to be a business. Um, because if we were not a business, how were we going to help people who wanted to start businesses? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Okay, you've touched a little bit on partnerships. I think uh some of the more notable ones for Bongo Hive is programs like the Women in Tech with Standard Chartered Bank. Uh, there's also various partnerships with uh entrepreneurship and digital uh literacy that you've pushed. But when it comes to collaborations and things like that, what does that mean to you and how do you feel like we can do more of these in Zambia in order to push the digital transformation uh agenda forward?

SPEAKER_02 13:02

I think there are always twice two levels to these partnerships. Um just last week, you know, we had an event at the AI Show and Tel event, and uh my my remarks to everyone who was there were it wasn't about Bongo Hive providing you with support, it was about finding the next person who could be your business partner, who could be that you know developer that you are looking for who could build that app, right? And so partnerships begin at that level. Um, I recall last week uh my honor was uh about IPO. He said he met his chairperson of his board at the Bongo High Videos. Interesting, nice, and and those are the kinds of partnerships that we always push for, right? It's not about coming to us and saying, hey, I've got this brilliant idea. Yeah, you help me. No, there's always some kind of collaborator or helper within the environment itself, within the network that would be helpful. On the other end, we have noted, and and this is something we we do practically, we have about uh we have about 25 partners now, um roughly about five, six uh academia, just universities alone. And over time, over the past 14 years, uh we couldn't do what we have done so far um without partners, whether it's uh those that provide us with free internet to the building, um the subject matter experts, uh, where we work with partners, lawyers, law firms, and accounting firms and all that. And we begin to see ourselves as facilitators, yeah, right? We build um the bridges between us as entrepreneurs and the large businesses because we can't exist in isolation. So the partnerships have really helped us um to do what we do to scale what we are doing. And one of the fun facts is in when we started, I think for the first five years, yeah, all we got were international partners. It was much easier to convince an organization outside Zambia about what we were doing, and not as I think.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

I feel like we're we're a lot more closed off as Zambians. If we don't understand it, we're not too sure about venturing into it. It's I don't even think we like to dip our toes, we just look at it. Just look at their water.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And there's that part, but of course, we know that from our experience, eventually people caught on, they got uh to understand what we were doing, and now some of our largest partners are local organizations, and and that's important, right? Uh it's not about saying, you know, we don't get local support and all this thing. You can go on that narrative, but you know, be patient, take your time, uh, build credibility, and I think you know it's been much easier to then build the partnerships all around for both uh local and local organizations.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Okay, so let's talk a little bit about leadership and uh culture, especially from your perspective. So, running a creative and fast-moving organization like Bungle Hive, uh it requires a lot of structure, but it also does require a lot of flexibility. So, how would you describe your leadership style in this particular sense?

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Um so when I started, when we started Bungle Hive, I was 27 years ago. Um, we're now a team of about 30 people. We run programs um across the continent.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

And um when we when we got to 10 years, um we clocked 10 years, yeah. I I kept asking myself questions whether I was sort of the right person.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Okay, so you had that moment of reflection, okay?

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Yeah, yeah. And uh I I went to school, I did an MBA which had a significant component, a leadership program. And that was one of the best decisions I ever made because I recognized, and part of answering your question when you say what leadership athletic. Um for me, the first thing was to recognize that I thought at that time I didn't have the necessary qualities um to continue doing what we're doing or to scale what we were doing. Yeah, and eventually, you know, some of the things that I found out about myself, um, I did a personality test, one of the first interesting ones, I think seven years ago, someone then. Yeah, but what was interesting about that was um it's you know, the first test was that you know I'm a bit of an introvert, but you know, that I was because of the needs of the organization, I was becoming an extrovert.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

So there was who I am and who I was at that time and the things I needed to be to become a better leader. But I've I found I think comfort in being a situational leader, yeah. Um, because then I didn't have to become a loud person because you know there was a loud person in the world.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

People always seem to think that leaders are those outlandish, you know, extroverted. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Yeah, okay. Exactly. Um, and and so lots of learnings there around adapting to different types of people within the institution. Yeah. Um, because you have you know uh your interns people coming in from university, first time, first time working within an institution, and then you have those that have 10, 15 years, and somehow you have to lead all, and not just that, you know, our position as an organization as you also have to lead as an organization and advise other organizations. So, you know, what got me very comfortable is understanding that I can adapt to different uh scenarios and different stages of people, uh types of people and the stages of their uh growth at a personal level, and that has worked out a lot better than thinking that I am a you know this kind of person and putting myself in a box and not being uh flexible.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Um, touching on that, so like you said, you're coming in with interns who've never worked in a corporate environment or in a formal environment. You're coming in with people who have innovative ideas and maybe people who think that this is my idea and I'm just going to stick with it, and I don't care what advice you give me. How has that been like juggling those different types of personalities? Because sometimes you want you want people to fail forward even if they do fail, right? Or just in terms of giving advice, because that's essentially what this is. It's a hub of different ideas and being able to brew these ideas. How have you, or could you maybe mention one time where you found a massive challenge with trying to lead either a person or maybe a team into ushering them in this direction? Because you know through your experience, this is the right way to do it. But maybe they're just obstinate in their idea and doing it their way.

unknown 19:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

I think that there are two sides to this. Uh, there's the work that we do in um helping entrepreneurs um find their way. Right. And and you know, I've I should have mentioned earlier that I have other business partners and co-founders, and it's been super helpful that they are not like me.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Ah, so they balance the other sides of the other thing.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Yeah, they balance other sides, you know, and and I'll talk about Simon Zahir because he leads our entrepreneurship programs, he's brutally honest.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Um, and and and I I like that his personality matches the kind of work because sometimes entrepreneurs, like you said, will be so set in stone that oh, my idea is a million-dollar idea. And it's not that you know we have to give our opinion to say, but we always say what does the market say? Yeah, and because you're going to be insistent on going in a particular direction, but with your customers, say, are you getting the right feedback from your customers? Yeah, and such. So we're always brutally honest about that part of the process. Yeah, it's not about what you think or what I think, but you know, let's direct you to get the right feedback uh from the market. On the other end, I you know, I've had conversations with other leaders around this, which is how to lead with multi-generational uh um people, um, and and that for me still represents the biggest challenge. I I was looking at some uh content the other day, and you know, we could you could be working with around five, six generations uh because you've got your advisors at the top, yeah, boomers and and and and all the gen X and what and not. I and I I find that is probably one of the most difficult things as leaders, right? Yeah, to adapt to the different um generations within an organization because we all see things differently. Um, I was even joking um yesterday with my team uh saying when I was your age, I used to walk uh an hour to school, and then the Said why you know because for them it doesn't resonate for them lifting a laptop which is lifting a laptop which is heavy is the biggest challenge for them. Like, well, why should they it's so heavy and things like that? Yeah, and and I find that communicating uh value and communicating your obligation journey in a way that makes sense uh to the team or different levels is probably the hardest thing really. But uh self-awareness I think is the most important thing. I I sit down sometimes and listen uh to advice for things that I you know I'm gonna be like insistent on. Yeah, this is how I think things should go because of my experience, and then you know you have to like sit down around and like okay. Let me let me let me listen to you because you have a different perspective. Exactly. I could learn something from you. So there's a lot of learning along the way. Um, and and that's what that for me is the most important thing.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

I think touching on that, there's an element sometimes. Um, I don't know if you've experienced this when you're working with these young entrepreneurs and innovators, where as you mentioned, everybody thinks I've got the million-dollar idea, but there's also this notion of I'm doing this so that I will make money, I'm doing this so that I will be the next Elon Musk. They're forgetting that Elon Musk actually sacrificed his family, his marriages, his children because he wanted to go to space. And it starts with an idea that you have, and you sit on that idea, but like you said, you're filling something that is a gap. Elon did not necessarily go straight for I want to go to space, but he had the Tesla, the electrical cars. So the idea was filling the gap. The money kind of just tumbled into that whole space.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Yeah, I and you know, um, unfortunately, we we meet many uh entrepreneurs um who are so passionate about their ideas that they also forget how to make money.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Ah, okay. So it's also balance.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Yes, exactly. Um, and and part of it uh when we're talking about um how this compares, how our attitude and culture compares to, let's say, West African colleagues or East African colleagues or South Africans and such. And it does matter um the macro environment and the culture that we're in. You know, are we brought up thinking oh, we should always be giving people free money? I see, okay, a socialist uh perspective of get free things, and you know, or we are brought up in an environment of work hard for your money, right? And um we're seeing shifts definitely on many years now, um, different uh um environments that we've been in leadership styles. So there's still the opportunity for people to you know learn how to make money, yeah, um, and not just generate um think of nice brilliant ideas, yeah. But you know, it's a mindset, but also it's a process, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Okay, uh, so touching on that, how do you keep the human element alive in such a data-driven, tech-centric environment like Ongo Hive?

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Um I think it goes back to what I said earlier about putting people first, some of the early experiences for us, um, even now, uh noticing these stories where people come in, a person comes in at a particular level, and then you see them grow. And when you're around to see them grow, those personal stories, and I know I used to tell people, that's what makes us sleep at night. Yeah, it's not even how much money they've made because you know they can announce we've raised X million dollars for our startup. But when you begin to see their personal growth, yeah, this person who did not have any employees, and all of a sudden they have one, two employees, or they're now thinking, Oh, how do I grow as a person? Yeah, I'm making a bit a bit more money now, what do I invest in as a business? You know, how do I how do I create more value for customers and all that? So that that that journey um and those stories help us to always think about the people.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Um, so I mean, I know you mentioned people, but outside of that, what excites you the most about the future of innovation and entrepreneurship in Zambia and Africa at large?

SPEAKER_02 26:28

Um, what excites me the most um is is this glass half full, half empty. Right? Um you can have a conversation around whether there is potential or not, whether you know things are bad or not. What excites me is waking up every morning and thinking, how do I feel this cup?

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Ah, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

And that's what's keep kept us consistent for the past 14 years is because we always think we can do better, we can do more, um, and our job is not done yet. In fact, there's this uh statement, I suppose like saying it. Um forgotten. But but it's it's it's something related to that we are only just beginning.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Right. Um, and the work must be done, right? Not the assumption that oh, things are okay or things are bad. But even after you've judged whether something is good or bad, what is your contribution? Yeah, and I think for us it's always the excitement that no matter how things look up or down, we can play a part in improving things and getting that.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Very true. And my final question: um, if you could leave our audience with one thought about leading with purpose in a digital world, what would it be?

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Um we we we talk about human-centered design. Um, it's something all our staff, um it's a course they all take. So when you join the Bongo High, you have to take on a course on human-centered design. What that does, um, and a few weeks ago we had you know presentations from staff, they go out and they work with um businesses, understand their needs, and build a prototype or build a case solution. And and we found that by people being practical about it, um, they make better decisions, they grow. But underlying that is the idea that it is a process that people must learn. None of us is born trying to think about the other person. Right? And we always have to think to ourselves, even as leaders, right? How do we help everyone have empathy? If I have empathy for my employees, that employees have empathy for me, my staff, my team, and customers, I think we can create much better organizations and products and services because at that point the world won't revolve around me and what I like and what I love. Right. It's about what we can do together to create the kind of impact that's necessary to change the world. And I think that for me is important. But we always have to be intentional about that. It's not just about saying, you know, we need to be in our customers' shoes, we need to be in our employees' shoes. No, like let your team learn that. Um let them go through, take on courses that we teach them, put them in environments where they have to talk to people that they are quite frankly afraid of talking to. When people are put in situations where they have to learn, be the other person, um, live the other person's lives, then that empathy grows. And when that empathy grows, people will be more intentional about what they do.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Alright, Lukonga, thank you very much for making the time to speak with us today on the Humanized Podcast. We've learned a lot, and uh, I wish you all the best with the rest of the innovation ventures with Bongo Hive. Thank you. That is Mr. Lukonga Lindunga, the co-founder and CEO of Bongo Hive. Thank you very much for joining us on this podcast, and we'll catch you next week. Bye.