S.1 Ep.1: Introducing Wood & Iron

Wood & Iron is a podcast that explores the needs and challenges of today’s logger. Join our host, Blake Manley, Executive Director of the Western Forestry and Conservation Association (WFCA) as he explores business operation, policy navigation, and the future of logging with loggers from the Midwest to the West. The goal of Wood & Iron is to promote a successful and sustainable logging workforce in our forested states by offering relevant and timely information that you can listen to during your time in the cab.

Transcript

S01E01 Wood & Iron

[Blake Manley]

Welcome to Wood and Iron, the podcast for loggers by loggers. We dig into the real stories, hard-earned lessons, and iron-sharpened wisdom that keep the wood industry moving. I'm Blake Manley with the Western Forestry and Conservation Association.

[Jared Schroeder]

And I'm Jared Schroeder with the Wisconsin Forestry Center. Together, we bring you the voices of the people who live and breathe timber. From the forest floor to the millyard door, from chainsaws to forwarders, we're talking shop, celebrating the craft and tackling the issues shaping forestry today.

[Blake Manley]

So grab your coffee, fire up your equipment, and settle in. This is Wood and Iron. Let's get to work.

Hi, everybody, I'm Blake Manley, creator of Manley Jobs, former teacher, and current executive director of the Western Forestry and Conservation Association.

[Jared Schroeder]

I am Jared Schroeder. I work with the Wisconsin Forestry Center as the curriculum specialist for high schools. I taught for 14 years before coming on to this job, and I am in the process of learning all things forest industry.

[Blake Manley]

And we would like to welcome you to Wood and Iron. This is a podcast that kind of organically grew from loggers throughout the whole West and the Great Lakes, saying that they had a huge interest in what other loggers are struggling with. And they have a huge interest in learning more about how other loggers are doing their day-to-day business, not necessarily because of a competitive advantage, but the margins are so thin in today's economy that we, as an industry, a logging community, are always trying to learn from one another.

And so Jared came up with this idea. We kicked it around for a while, and we realized that we're not the experts. We're going to tell you a little bit about ourselves and more of our story.

But we're going to bring to you 12 guests over the next year that have intricate knowledge in some capacity of this industry, specifically in the wood and iron, as in the loggers. Jared, I think just a blast of what your day-to-day looks like and what you do directly with the loggers. We know that there's a lot to a job that anybody's doing right now.

I don't care if you're logging, if you're teaching. It seems like everyone wears three or four hats. Why don't you give a little insight to our listeners about your hat that is directly involved with more of the loggers in your area?

[Jared Schroeder]

I work at the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point, and we have a fairly well-known forestry degree here. And so I've known about the forestry element of things for quite a while. I went through this program for wildlife management back in the day, and the forestry part is always being pushed.

But no one ever really talks about all of the other elements of the industries. So when I came back here to work on this curriculum, specifically to try to reach a broader scope of forest industries for high school students, because a lot of students who come here don't even realize that forestry is an option until they get here. And then when they do learn it's an option, they only think about the management aspect of things, restoration, the forestry part of it.

They don't know anything about the logging part. And so my primary purpose was to develop a curriculum that kind of exposes students at a younger age that this is a viable industry, that these are really good jobs out here that are in need. When I first came on, I was told I think the average age of an owner-operator in the Midwest here was, I think, 55, but I believe that data came out in 2016.

So numbers are getting up there. We need new people in the field. And the more I learned about the logging, the more I became more fascinated by it, because we got this really cool PONSSE simulator to help students see what it's like to be in a modern logging machine processor and learning what those things cost.

How does somebody get into this field? How do you become a logger and how do you become successful? And that was reinforced this last spring.

I was at the Great Lakes Timber Professionals Association Spring Celebration in Wisconsin here and I was approached by one of the loggers. They were like, hey, is there anything that is out there for help? Is there any grants out there or low-interest loans out there that can help us to be able to expand or survive?

That's what really got me thinking that, hey, you know what, there's not really something out there that I'm aware of that's giving advice to people in the field to help them thrive, help them survive, help them enjoy their job. And so I think that's kind of what led me to this point with this podcast.

[Blake Manley]

You bring up a lot of good stuff there. And for our listeners, understand that Jared's coming at this from an academic point of view, but he's earning the trust of the loggers by being out there with them, by understanding their concerns. And I think that's rare.

There's other people in universities across the nation that are doing that. But what you're doing is really great because you're earning the trust of the guys to be able to come and say, hey, I need help. Where can I find it?

For those that may not know, Blake Manley, I grew up as a logger. My dad, I'm a fourth-generation logger. My great-grandpa was an axeman and not the one off of the crappy TV show.

Can I say that? Don't care. It just doesn't show what actual logging is.

Hey, everybody understands that. They've got to sell people, right? But my grandpa, great-grandpa, was a great-great-grandpa four generations ago, was an axeman in the Sierras.

And by that, he actually was the one cutting undercuts at the turn of the century with an ax and would sharpen everybody's axes in the camp. And that's pretty fascinating. Roll forward to grandpa.

Grandpa was a firefighter in the Sierras and all across the West, but a machine operator. And he was primarily a logger, road builder, all that kind of stuff. And then dad started in the woods in ‘72, finished his 53rd year in the woods in some capacity as a logger, owned his own company starting in the later 70s.

Then what was I going to do? I graduated high school. Everybody pushed me in other directions, and I just wanted to log.

I loved being in the woods. I loved the smells. It's all those things that no one can teach you about.

Like you're saying, students coming to universities, and this isn't just you all at Stevens Point. This is clear across the West. Students coming to universities, they don't know the options that are out there.

Now, there's a lot of great people like you and others that are trying to teach them that. But some of the things in forestry as the broader career path, logging, mill working, all of it, are the sunrises, are the smells, are the animals that they see. You know, the rare everythings that are out there that the common person doesn't get to see in the wild, we get to see them as loggers every day.

Well, I started in ‘99, worked my way up from timber cutter to machine operator. And then I got into education like you. It was a great fit.

Love it. Love being in front of kids. I took a couple different jobs, and then this job was offered to me to kind of coordinate at a higher level, all levels of education, K-12 through professional learning.

And that's kind of where I sit today. So when we're talking to loggers, understand that I do have a snippet, 20 plus years of professionally watching this or being a part of it directly. But we don't want to dominate the conversation.

And so one of the things that we're going to do is we're going to bring in different guests, guests that have much more knowledge. They do it every single day. They are in the fight today.

Some of those guests are going to be owner operators. Some of them are going to be maybe they just work for the guy or a guy. Some of them might be retired.

But they're going to kind of show us what this industry looks like in 2026 and moving forward.

[Jared Schroeder]

And that's one of the reasons why I'm here is my lack of knowledge on the subject is going to allow me to ask those silly questions to help illuminate things that might be taken for granted. Because when you're a professional in the field, like you kind of fill in the blanks automatically. So someone who might be listening, looking to get into the career, they might not have all that background information.

And that's kind of where I come in to ask those questions to help illuminate things for those people who may not know quite as much.

[Blake Manley]

And we want to really provide something for everyone that hears this clear across the United States. Jared's in Wisconsin. I live in northern Idaho.

I did most of my work in Oregon. I've worked in Alaska. I've worked in Washington.

Dad grew up in California. Grandpa, you know, is buried in California. I've been to Montana on forestry, different projects.

And so the West is covered. Jared covers the Great Lakes. We're going to bring in guests from the Southwest.

We're going to bring guests from the South. Don't think for a minute that we're not going to address or try to address your problem. And really what we would like to do, you know, especially with this first episode is, you know, I'm going to kind of lay it out there.

A couple different questions for our listeners. Please interact and send us a comment. Send us something and just say, hey, you know, as a logger, I need to know more about whatever that might be.

I know as I travel around the United States at logging conferences and speeches and all that, succession planning, big deal, right? And what you were saying, it's really hard. When dad got into the woods, you know, in the late 70s, he bought a skidder.

That was a big purchase. But then he bought a couple of chainsaws. So that was the entire operation.

You cut down trees, you skid trees, bump some knots, contracted out the loading and trucking, done. Today, that type of operation doesn't exist. So now you've got 1.2 million when you got 4 million, you got 10 million dollars in some sites. It's hard for a person of any means to just jump in. So we're going to address that. We're going to address that.

You know, Jerry, what else we're going to talk about?

[Jared Schroeder]

I like that you brought up, you know, interaction too. We have the freedom to be able to adapt to the needs of the population, right? What are our listeners looking for?

And so definitely want to sort of reinforce that that's our goal. We want to answer your questions. We want to address the needs that are in the industry.

[Blake Manley]

Support for this podcast comes from the Western Forestry and Conservation Association. For over 100 years, WFCA has delivered trusted forestry education, professional development, and workforce leadership across the region. Learn more at westernforestry.org.

As executive director of WFCA, I just kind of want to tell everybody who we are. We have an 11-person board that oversees, it's a non-profit, so they oversee everything that I do and kind of the direction. I appreciate that they give me the opportunity to be a part of a podcast like this.

The WFCA was founded in 1909 with the main goal to protect the Pacific Northwest timberlands from the threat of wildfire, promote all aspects of sustainability. It's grown in the 116 plus years to where our mission today is to promote forest stewardship across the whole Western United States and really North America in general. We do it through three different mechanisms.

One, we promote the science and practice of forestry. We promote the dissemination of forest research and technical information. And we promote cooperation and understanding of management issues among federal, provincial, state, university, and all other types of land ownership across the whole United States.

We have a very small team. It's just me and two others currently. And really our goals are to do good things for forestry.

So I just wanted to let everybody know, you know, kind of what the Western Forestry and Conservation Association is and where we're at. You can find out more information by logging on to westernforestry.org. Follow us and what we do there.

[Jared Schroeder]

I'm excited to talk to some people about how do you even get started? Like, where do you begin if you're getting into this and you, it's not a generational thing. Like you're just, you're going to go to the store, pick up a saw and start.

What does that look like? And how do you, how are you successful doing something like that?

[Blake Manley]

How do you find your first job?

[Jared Schroeder]

Right.

[Blake Manley]

Right. Another thing that we're going to talk about, and please, you know, give us all the feedback that anybody hearing this wants, but is diversification. I see in all the places I'm at, these different companies are diversifying more and more.

You know, when I broke into the woods late ‘90s, you did X, whatever that was, right? If you were a ground-based operation, you were a ground-based operation. If you were a cut-to-length system, you were a cut-to-length system.

That's what you did. A yarder, you were doing steep slope yarding. Now I see these operations.

They're very diversified. I see certain companies. They're not just diversified into logging, but they've moved beyond that.

We've got a couple of guests that are on the docket that they're, they're going to come in and talk about diversifying your operation. And maybe that's something for certain regions. It's not as important, but I know there's a whole lot of people that diversification is key.

[Jared Schroeder]

I'm just really excited to learn from everybody. I can't wait. I can't wait to talk to these people and learn more about how they overcome their challenges.

Cause you hear a lot of, you know, a lot of students ask like, you know, what's this job going to be like? And I can't give a lot of details to answer that question, but I can tell them an interesting Washington post article that came out in 2023 about how logging is the second happiest career in the nation. And they're like, and their eyes always, whether the middle or high school students, their eyes always light up like, really?

I'm like, yeah, think about it. You're out of the woods, right? You get to be in nature all day long.

You're often working by yourself. So you don't necessarily have those people constantly pulling your attention away for good or for bad. It's going to wear down your mood.

You're out there. You're enjoying it. And I want to see how people really, you know, how do they maximize that?

Cause I know hours are long, right? Like you put a lot of hours in, you work really hard, but it's worth it. It's gotta be worth it to be such a happy career.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah. And for listeners that might just be listening to, to enjoy yourself, realize that the logging we're talking about is not your grandpa's logging operation. You know, I, I referenced that all the time to people.

A lot of people, when they talk about logging, they think about the 50, 60, 70, you know, it was cat skinning. It was, you know, big burly guys with big beards and not a lick of fat on them hardly because it's hard work. Now that's not to say that logging is not hard work today.

It's hard work still. We're not saying that for sure, but it's not the physical demand on your body that it once was. And, and I think a lot of people don't understand the technology that's in a PONSSE processor.

[Jared Schroeder]

Yeah. Those things are amazing.

[Blake Manley]

Incredible. And if you, if you like looking at screens, you know, let's say you like being outdoors, maybe you're a hunting and fishing type kid, you know, like I was, and you like to be outdoors, but you like the screen stuff that is logging today. Like it is screen time.

You're looking at, at a processing sheets and different electronical panels and all that. That's what you're looking at while you're in nature.

[Jared Schroeder]

Yeah. Real program heavy these days.

[Blake Manley]

Programming and tech. The tech that's involved. I don't think everyone understands.

Now, does that mean that we don't have anyone running a chainsaw? No, that still is a viable career path and people are still cutting some trees, but boy, there's so much right now on the technical side. It is a fascinating industry.

[Jared Schroeder]

Oh, one, one other thing I, we're going to navigate to and try to work our way through is policy and policy changes. How to benefit from changing policy because change is scary, but I think it's also oftentimes an opportunity for profit.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah. And, you know, if we cover a little bit of the history of that, you know, back in the sixties and seventies, when grandpa was doing this, you know, they logged almost exclusively on the national forest. There was a little bit on private timber ground, but a lot of what grandpa did was on the national forest that dad too.

And that has changed. You know, the national forest is not the primary provider of forest products like it was in the seventies and eighties. That has changed that policy.

But now we even have other changes to the individual state policies that are changing. The state of Idaho, where I live, it is a fascinating world, a big portion of the state lands that are logged, that profit goes to schools and it was 60 plus million dollars last year. You know, and I think the public doesn't know all of what that entails.

And I can't wait to have one of our first guests who is here in Idaho. He's going to talk a little bit more about that, about policy, but, but about that, that in particular, which is exciting for me. Super excited.

[Jared Schroeder]

Yeah. And I think there's a lot of opportunity coming. I actually just saw that an article recently talking about in the UW system, a push for mass timber in new buildings.

I think that there are new markets within our country. They're going to be opening up soon.

They're going to provide some really great opportunities to move some fiber.

[Blake Manley]

You know, and, and people see the writing on the wall for some of this. Now the, the tough part is there are certain parts of the country where our industry is not as strong and that policy coming about is going to bring this infusion of need. And that's where your job is so critical right now, Jared, and many others.

You know, I work with the university of Idaho or Oregon state university. They have programming to try to bring, you know, young people up to speed on what the industry's like today, you know, exactly what you're doing in Wisconsin. We have to get more of that out there.

[Jared Schroeder]

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, if you ask general public individuals, you know, close their eyes, but now picture somebody who works in the forest industry.

You don't have to say logging, just say the forest industry, and you're going to get the bearded guy with the plaid. You got the flannel on, you got the, the double, double bit ax, and you get the same image that that's been around for over a hundred years. Yeah.

And we, we need to address that, that imagery issue.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah, because that's not it anymore.

[Jared Schroeder]

No.

[Blake Manley]

I worked previously, I worked with the university and one of the best students that I had on the logging crew that I was teaching from Maria, she analyzed things at a level that at 20 years old, I didn't analyze things. Now that could be generational, sure. But there's different, we think differently.

Females to males think differently, you know, where you were brought up, we think differently and we need all of them in this industry.

[Jared Schroeder]

Yes.

[Blake Manley]

It's no longer that double bit ax, long beard, flannel shirt type atmosphere only.

[Jared Schroeder]

Yeah.

[Blake Manley]

It's beyond that.

[Jared Schroeder]

I mean, if we stick with the same old trends, right, you end up doing what dad did, because dad did it, but the more people you talk to with different viewpoints, the more you realize, oh, not everything dad did was the most efficient. Or even the safest.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah. Hey, I can speak to that because, you know, dad's actually hanging it up this year and which is both sad and actually by the time this comes out, dad will have hung it up. 25 is his last year in the woods.

[Jared Schroeder]

Well, maybe we got to get him on for an interview.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah, that'd be fun. Actually, we need him and my little brother. You know, my little brother's been in the woods since he was 18 as well.

Now he's over 40 and, you know, the combination would be comedy central. Which, you know, family industry. 

That's another part, like what you're talking about. A lot of it has been handed down generation to generation.

But from time to time, the next generation has other aspirations.

I know one of our guests that's going to be coming on in a later month, his direct children didn't want the business. And so his plan for the future involved extended family partnerships, all kinds of different things in order to, you know, bring that about. So that's another change to the industry, you know, generational.

And then all of a sudden it's not. And now what do we do?

[Jared Schroeder]

Yeah. We got a lot of people who are taking the off ramp. And so we got to figure out a way to make a usable onramp.

[Blake Manley]

That's right. That's right. So I bring back the question to the public.

What are some things you want to know? Is it how it works? You know, coming back to what you were saying, a lot of us take for granted in the industry that people know what we do.

What's a landing? It's the landing. How do I describe that?

It's the place where the logs end up after they've been cut down and skidded through the woods. And well, what's skidding? I get it.

I understand when you break it down to the common person, you know, a lot of people don't know. Here's another one that we need to consider to our listeners out there. What do we use this forest products and these logs for?

[Jared Schroeder]

That's a good one.

[Blake Manley]

I think far too often, Jared, the common person, and I know we're talking more to the loggers, but even loggers in different regions won't know, right? What do we use a ponderosa pine for? There's a summit that happened this past fall in November down in Arizona, trying to find new markets for ponderosa pine because 30 years ago we cut and we planted.

The price was right. We planted tons of plantations with ponderosa pine. Millions of acres across the West, ponderosa pine.

Now there's not that great of a market for it.

[Jared Schroeder]

Do you say it went the way of the restaurant, Ponderosa?

[Blake Manley]

Yeah, yeah. That or the Bonanza, Ponderosa, you know, it's gone. So on that note, I just want to encourage everybody to participate in this.

Give us your questions. Let us know what you need, whether that's in person, whether that is, you know, through a comment here or there. We want to serve you.

This is wood and iron. This is not the Blake Manley podcast, right? We want to do everything we can do.

[Jared Schroeder]

Yep. Any of your questions or comments can be addressed to wfc@uwsp.edu. To kind of summarize, I now work for the Western Forestry and Conservation Association.

[Blake Manley]

That's a 116-year-old non-profit for forest education. So the board on that non-profit board, they cover the entirety of the industry. So there's literally no question within forestry that we can't find the answer to.

And maybe it's not a direct logger type question, but maybe it's tangentially, you know, attached.

[Jared Schroeder]

And maybe you've been unfortunate enough to be nothing but successful and are looking for a reason to give away some of your money. We will take sponsorship as well.

[Blake Manley]

Absolutely. We're looking for sponsorships all over the place, ladies and gents. You know, it takes something to put on a podcast.

And if you're lucky enough to be successful and have a little bit to promote something like this, reach out. Because we will use that to grow this, to reach a bigger audience, and to promote educational opportunities for the next generation. 

[Jared Schroeder]

Certainly.

That's going to wrap up this episode of Wood and Iron, the podcast for loggers by loggers. Big thanks for joining us out here in the woods in the air today. We appreciate you making us part of your day.

[Jared Schroeder]

And be sure to subscribe and share. And more importantly, send us questions and stories. We want to hear from the people who keep this industry running.

[Blake Manley]

So until next time, stay safe, stay sharp, and keep the woods working.

[Jared Schroeder]

Wood and Iron is brought to you by the Wisconsin Forestry Center. The WFC is dedicated to promoting vibrant, sustainable forests and forest-based economies. Learn more at uwsp.edu/WFC. Special thanks to those that brought Wood and Iron from the studio to the cab, editor Joe Rogers, producer Susan Barrett, and theme music by Paul Frater, Todd Hornick, and Sammy Mead.