S.1 Ep.4: Passing the Torch

In this episode, we explore how to navigate a smooth generational transition in a family business with Roger Smith of R.L. Smith Logging. Hear practical insights on passing down leadership, preserving legacy, and preparing the next generation. Plus, we discuss how to get students excited about careers in the logging industry and keep the tradition moving forward.

Wood & Iron is a podcast that explores the needs and challenges of today’s logger. Join our hosts as they explores business operation, policy navigation, and the future of logging with loggers from the Midwest to the West. The goal of Wood & Iron is to promote a successful and sustainable logging workforce in our forested states by offering relevant and timely information that you can listen to during your time in the cab.

Produced by the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point’s Wisconsin Forestry Center and is hosted by WFC’s High School Program Manager Jared Schroeder and Manley Jobs host and WFCA executive director Blake Manley. Wood & Iron is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music, and many other platforms.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Welcome to Wood and Iron, the podcast for loggers and biologists we dig into the real stories of hard-earned lessons and iron-sharpened wisdom that keep the wood industry moving. I'm Blake Manley with the Western Forestry and Conservation Association.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

And I'm Jared Schrader with the Wisconsin Forestry Center. Together, we bring you the voices of the people who live and breathe timber. From the forest floor to the Milliard door, from chainsaws to forwarders, we're talking shops, celebrating the craft and tackling the issues shaping forestry today.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

So grab your coffee, fire up your equipment, and settle in. This is wood and iron. Let's get to work. Big thanks today for our sponsor, Manly Jobs, promotional educational material for all groups. Hey, welcome everybody to this episode of Wood and Iron. I'm your host, Blake Manley, and I'm here with my good buddy from Wisconsin. Jared, how are things?

SPEAKER_01 1:21

I'm doing great. It's been a really cold January here in Wisconsin. If the if the weather hurts your face, you don't have to worry about poisonous insects and all kinds of creepy crawlies, so I'll take it. I'll take it.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Earlier this week I was talking to somebody from Alabama, and they were saying, you know, the snakes don't like it when it's you know below freezing. So they don't have to worry about that right now. Not that they normally do this time of year, but yeah, cold times, cold times. Hey, I'm pretty excited today. We've got a special guest, a friend of mine from the Pacific Northwest, here to share his story and maybe some lessons he's learned to the populace out there. So without further ado, I want to introduce everybody to Roger Smith, who's the owner of RL Smith Logging. Roger, good to see you, bud.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yeah, good to see you, Blake, and uh nice to meet you, Jared. Looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Let's just get right into it, Raj, and let's kind of start about you know how you got into it, how you grew your business, you know, maybe what logging looks like over there in western Washington.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Oh, well, I graduated in 1980, and that was the beginning of a downturn. I actually didn't want to go to school. All my buddies went to college, and I, you know, I'm not that person. I I want to work with my hands. So I thought, well, maybe I'll get into building houses. So we did a little bit of that, and then it it just pretty much stopped. So what what's next? So I, you know, I thinned thinned some trees, did some Christmas tree work, and you know, my all my brothers, my uncles, my grandpas, they all had their my grandpa had his own logging company and they all worked together. And it was like, yeah, you know, why don't you join us? You know, just that offer of $14 an hour in 1980 enticed me to get into the business and had got married at 19. So it's like, you know, I'll try it. I'll try it. So they say if you wear out your first pair of cork boots, cork boots, you know, they're spikes on the bottom of your shoes. And we were in steep, steep ground. I mean, really like 4,000 foot hanging out just in the mountains, in the rough, rough train. So I actually wore that, wore out that first pair of cork boots, and I really enjoyed it. So I'm just working with my hands staying in shape, and it was just all she had really had to focus on was hard work, you know, be responsible, you know, be there every day and and work hard. And I really truly enjoyed it from day one.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

What were your intro tasks that you were given when you first started?

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Basically setting chokers. We were on such steep terrain you could, you know, hardly stand up on it. So you'd have a like a metal spar tree on a ridgetop over here with a cable strung out 4,000 feet, you know, and then you'd gravity call it a shotgun carry, we'd gravity that back, and then you'd slack that thing down in the way down in the hole, and you'd set chokers on logs. And it was old growth timber at the time. So yeah, we would set chokers on logs and send them up to the landing, and that was my job down in that hole. That's that's where you started in the industry from in 1980. That's you were you were at the bottom of the barrel, and that's where you started. But literally the bottom of the ladder. Yep. But gotta start somewhere. But I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

And then, Roger, you know, a few years later, you transitioned from the choker setter, from the machine operator into more of the owner's seat. Talk about that transition a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Yeah, I worked for a local guy in Elma after working for my uncles because the high country got shut down, old growth got pretty much cut off, which okay, slowed down a little bit where they were at. So went to work for another guy, uh, NDC Timber, and great guy to work for. Learned a lot there. Worked my way up the ladder, kind of running the whole complete side for them. And things got a little slow during the spotted owl for him. Cut back what we were doing and started clearing land a little bit with him. And you know, it was the early 90s. I worked there about 10 years, and things started, we had a little downturn right then. So um he had to make some cuts, and I was, you know, he cut quite a few people and things slowed down. So when I got cut, it was like, okay, what's my options here? Do I get back into building? Do I I really want to log? And at that time, Carmen's uncle was looking to get out of it. So he kind of set us up, um, gave us his contract with Warehouser in '91, and it just took off from there. I was working right with the crew, tower logging, cable logging, and then it just slowly grew from that point. So it seems like uh what's that 36 years ago? So been a while. Couple days.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

That's some impressive resiliency. I mean, you started out in a downturn, you experienced the you know, downturns as you were working, and it didn't stop you. And that's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Yeah. I just told myself I'm just putting my nose to grindstones, and actually I hired both my brothers that I worked with before, so they came to work with me because it was a pretty good little downturn at that time, too. So it was we ended up with a really, really good crew, and I think that's what made us survive. We're very productive and very efficient crew. I kind of grew slowly. That first 10 years, it was like I finally got a second shovel about eight years in to help shovel log a little. But shovel logging is basically the flat ground, say 30% and less. So everything else was you know cable logging, and then when you start doing flat ground at the time, you know, and it so 30% and less, we we we you know bought a shovel, and then I slowly grew, then I got into processing, which basically when I first started, it was all big timber, and all the hand cutters had to buck all the logs to tree length, you know, 40 foot, 36 foot, and now it's just all mechanical. Everything's mechanical now, so because the wood basically got smaller. But and when you when you think about the when I worked for NDC Timber, he had seven sides going in and he had 45 timber followers just falling stuff for him. And I think now I don't know if there's even 45 timber followers in the whole state right now. It's just that's how automation is now. So it's really changed everything. So and I always seemed to be, I always wanted to be on the forefront of automation. Started with processing, and then I remember going to Canada and uh in the woods show up there, and I remember hearing a hot saw, and it's like for the first time. That's a machine that basically grabs a tree and cut it's cut. And I, what is that noise? You know, because we always had bar saw, we never heard that noise before, and then you know, God, that looks you know, I'm gonna invest in that. So I always wanted to be the first one to try something in automation and technology, and I've always been that way, and I think that's really helped us prosper in in this industry because we we embrace technology.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

Jared, I loved your reaction for those that obviously can't see us. When Roger says the flat ground and then proceeds to say 30% and less, Jared, that's the steep ground in Wisconsin, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah, I think we might have different definitions of what's flat.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Well, I'll tell you what, I know where Roger's at, where he's logged in, and that is the flat ground. Because the rest of it, it goes up from there, and it is steep, steep ground.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Well, so you're you're talking about like, you know, the integration of technology as it was coming out. I mean, that's gotta be really intimidating too, because the price tag on new technology is it's a stumbling block.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Yeah, and I can remember being that 30-year-old young uh landowner for Warehouser, and they came to me and said, We want you to get into processing. You want we want you to be the first one to do it. And I remember struggling to make it work at first, and I just I went to the guys and I just, man, I mean, I I think I lost $20,000, which now is not that big of a number to lose, but I remember losing $20,000 on this job because we were trying to do it. And they actually sat down and reimbursed us and they made sure that we made it. And I don't know if you'd even see that nowadays from landowners like that, but that was a really good gesture that they want me to succeed at it. So ever since then, it was like, okay, there's so much out there, uh, grapple carriages and drones, and there's so much out there, but we very seldom do things not work out. I kind of watch it real quick. For certain things, I'll watch real quick and be one of the first ones to get it. Other things I might be, that's nothing wrong with being second or third to get something, you know, to make sure somebody's doing it right. And but we try to be one of the early adapters to technology because I think in the long run, you can keep your costs in check. If you didn't invest in technology, you're it would be so hard to produce at a a good number for the landowner. So this investing in technology can keep your prices you know down for them. So it's it's well worth it.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Roger, why don't you jump into the reasons why you feel like you've been successful over the years? And really not just, well, I work harder than everybody else, but maybe is it the technology why you've been successful? Is it the crew why you've been successful? I know you've talked about both those things, but is there anything else that has kind of separated your success from maybe others that you've seen come and go?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

I like to consider myself as a good, honest person. We do the right job for the right people, and I have a lot of good crew. I mean, I treat them with respect, I let them think on their own. We, you know, if they need a little guidance, we will. But and there's certain ways you can motivate certain people, you know, you can be a little harder on this guy, you gotta pat this kind of back a little more. So I consider myself a good people person. Our companies, we run it like a family. We just want them to, you know, we'll work five, you know, 50 hour weeks. Occasionally you'll work a Saturday if you have to, but we like them to spend time with their family so they come back on Monday refreshed. But I think they respect that and they respect us, we respect them, and we have a lot of good people, and they, you know, we we talk about technology and what we're gonna do and how we're gonna embrace it. And even some of the older, like my brother, he's been running, he's gonna retire this October, actually. He's been running a filler buncher since the mid-80s, you know, when they first came out. And when we adopted tethered cutting, which is basically you're cutting with a machine on 100% slopes, you have a cable or two cables hooked to that machine, you're lowering them down the big steep slopes and you're pulling them back up, and that machine's cutting to everything. And he was uh he was probably what 58 at the time, and he, oh, I'll do that, man. He just caught on just like that. And you would think something like that would be, oh, this guy's yeah, is he gonna like this technology? This is this might be a reach, but no, everybody seems to hey, they're willing to try it, and it seems to always work. Very seldom do we fail at what technology we invest in, so that's good.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

That's rare. Not the investing in technology, but what you just described with your brother. I know from having worked with a lot of loggers that they don't tend to embrace technology in quite the same way. Why do you think that is? Why do you think your brother jumped on it or other employees so quickly? Is it a culture? Well, what is it?

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Yeah, I I we do have a really good safety culture, and that's why we invested in tethered cutting. It's you know, boots off the ground. We have to do this for safety. Some of the timber companies out there were requiring it at the time. So, hey, we really have to adopt this and we have to run with it. And my brother, he always was one of the best operators, whether it's running a yard or on the hillside we were talking about. I mean, he could put the chokers in your hand with a thousand feet of lift. It was he was so good at that. And no matter what he ran, it was always good. So he caught right on. He's probably one of one of the better ones running bunchers. And he's just really a he's he's a good person too. So he tried it, caught right on. And actually, we have two other kids running the same thing he's running right now. So we have three of these systems going. He we've trained two young, I think they're 28 and 27, and he's uh brought it upon himself. I just challenged the older guys, hey, you need to bring these young kids along and help help me help me train them. So and he's been really good at that. It's been very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

I imagine you probably have seen a lot of you know competing businesses not embrace technology. Have they a lot of them gone to the wayside or are they still managing to keep up, just not as profitable?

SPEAKER_00 13:51

I remember when I first had the first processor, I I didn't see another one around, maybe one or two around the whole state for the first couple years, three years, and then everybody said, Oh, you're gonna be stuck in that little wood forever. We're gonna be logging this big wood. Well, the big wood's going away, and it and it did. And some of the companies that did not embrace it were and late to the game, they struggled for a while or they just retired, you know, older. Some guys didn't want to change, didn't want to invest money at the time, maybe $300,000 for a processor, where now you're looking at eight, nine hundred thousand for a processor. So yeah, at the time, you know, they didn't want to invest the money at it. So you will get left behind. If you don't embrace technology, you can't get left behind. And if you didn't do it by now, you probably are out of the game for sure.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

You know, Roger, I think with that being said, you've been very instrumental in a couple different things that span the whole western region. You were the president of the Olympic Logging Conference one year, you've been the president of the Pacific Logging Congress for a year. Both of those conferences and groups are very into technology. Do you think being part of groups like that is one of the reasons that that you've been able to one, see the technology, but two kind of embrace that that change?

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Oh, absolutely, because you see, you know, every segment there's what's new in technology, and every time there's an In the Woods show or any conference, I'm there trying to learn to better myself, my education, my company. And especially when I was younger, you would learn so much by going to these conferences. You're talking to uh Eric Kroom or uh Frank Chandler or whomever, Tiger Cat, Caterpillar, they they all have this stuff, but boy, just go to these conferences and and learn what's going on, and you can talk to people face to face on you know what really works and what doesn't work. And I I think that's been extremely helpful.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Jared, I think that's something important for us to continue to tell people is a lot of people go to these conferences for the credits. Oh, I gotta get my credits, I gotta get my credits. I'm just there here to get credits, right? Well, here's a very successful example of not just going for the credits.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

I mean, you get out of it what you put into it, right? I mean, if you if you've got the right goal, you're gonna benefit from those credits beyond just you know reaching a benchmark. Your skills are gonna improve.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

For sure. Roger, uh, one of the unique things about RL Smith logging, in my opinion, is your plan for the future. So you talked about your past, you talked about how you got into it, but your succession plan is very, very good. If you don't mind, would you kind of go into that right now?

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah, we had a succession plan with my nephew. We had bought a big yarder, a one hole complete side. He actually made his final payment a month ago. So yeah, it was a 10-year plan. It was a pretty good chunk of money. But if you do it right, you know, capital gains tax goes away. So we did a lot of planning with accountants and lawyers, and and it helped him out, helped us out. And he was just, you know, part of our company for you know that portion of it for 10 years. And now we have grown a little bit more. Might have another guy that we have started on a shovel side. He's got the leveling shovel, so you know, he's shovel logging 60% ground. And I got another kid I'm working with on a processor. We still need to do more because we grew a little bit since Nathan, uh my nephew, and yeah, it's we're still working on more of our succession plan. It might be a little different the next this next go-around, but the majority of it has really paid off in the last 10 years. Just that capital gains is just a killer tax. That's hard to get out of selling equipment because you're yeah, it gets you.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Yeah, and Roger, I think for our casual listeners, for the loggers out there, I I think you all understand how hard it is to get into it and to the the machine costs and all that. But for our casual listeners, why don't you kind of break down what it cost you to start your company? You know, what was a machine, uh, what'd you start with, all those things, and then maybe what it looks like today with within just the costs of the machines, if you would.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Yeah, when I started in '91, I bought a used yarder, um, a shovel, a couple pickups, a firewagon, and it was uh $200,000. So it was affordable. It was easy to pay for that. And now you're looking at that same equipment nowadays, you're looking at probably two and a half to three million. A shovel side, you're looking at two million dollars per side. So then the capital is it takes so much more capital to get started. It was much easier when I had got started. So now, if you're a young owner wanting to get started, you need to find a logger like myself. I'm you know, I got my nephew going, I've got two other guys going. I'm here to help support them. If they want to grow more, they can grow more, but they need help. It's almost impossible to go say, I'm gonna go two million dollars in debt and make this work. That's a tough one to swallow and and make happen. It really is.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

You can see how the number of owner operators continues to decrease. I mean, because if you decide to retire without a succession plan, I mean, no one's taking your place.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Right. Yeah, and if succession plan works great for selling, but you know, more so getting into the business for sure. It's hard, you can't go to the bank. Basically, when you buy equipment, your house, everything. You got your whole life's at stake. So it's a big, huge risk, and uh a lot of people can't stomach that risk. That's also not just the risk part. There's a lot of good loggers out there, but they have a hard time, you know, where are we gonna find the people? And it's just that's it's almost the risk and the people side, you know. I gotta manage people. I might be able to manage one or two, but a whole crew of six or eight, that's a challenge in itself. So it it takes the right person to to do both.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, definitely. So as you're planning with your nephew to take over, as soon as you made that decision, are you bringing him in to help guide the business during that transition period?

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah, the 10 years plan that we had, I was 51% owner. We formed another company, 51% owner. He was buying shares of the rest of the company. So yeah, he would he was under our our wing the whole time, whether it was workman's comp or everything. So yeah, we we were teach teaching him and his wife, Christy, the ropes, how to do everything, and he pretty much mimicked exactly what we did. So it was good. I mean, we worked together and it it was a great transition for him for sure.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yeah, that's awesome. Have what what have been like the hurdles you faced in this process?

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Basically keeping the same timing of the work, you know, because he has a specialty equipment that, you know, we're gonna yard the big ground with his machine, and I have a little machine that'll take this ground, and then we have there's when you look at a an overall logging job, there might be five or six or ten different pieces that you could match up to log at the best. So it's okay, we got a plan. If we're working for seven different landowners throughout the year, okay, what's your plan? Okay, where does he where's where do we plug him in at? So he's got to do this, this. So the timing he has to be, you know, he has to be efficient, get done, and and be timed to get the next job. So that's probably been our biggest hurdle is getting all the timing down for what he's doing. It's been well, but it's it's always, you know, you're always on the calendar and checking the days, and you've got to be here at this day and you make it work.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Modern technology is a blessing and a curse.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

It is. Yeah, you walk a job when you walk. I walk I usually log every unit when it's standing timber, and it's like, okay, are we gonna well? We'll even tether skidders now. We'll take skidders on 50%, so pull them up the hill with winches. So there's just so Much neat technology out there, but what exactly is going to work the best? And yeah, it's it's neat to go through a job. And you yeah, I always wonder if you took a piece of ground and you had 10 loggers there, how would they log it? They'd probably all be a little bit different. But yeah, it'd be it'd be interesting to see everybody's take on how they do certain things.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Support for this podcast comes from the Western Forestry and Conservation Association. For over a hundred years, WFTA has delivered trusted forestry education, professional development, and workforce leadership across the region. Learn more at Westernforestry.org. You know, one of our previous guests, he talked about the exact same thing with me. Ten loggers get together, look at a spot, and there's probably nine different ways that it's gonna be logged.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yep, absolutely. I took good pride in where I think, you know, hey, well, I'm right because that's my money, you're gonna do it my way, I guess. So but but you try to do the best you can on, okay, we're gonna make our equipment work right here efficient and the manpower, and sometimes you plug in a little bit different, but yeah, you just you make it work the best you can.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Yeah, that's what I think is really cool about the career is the amount of problem solving that you do on a daily basis. And I don't know if society gives you enough credit for that. I mean, like you said, there's 10 different ways you can log a site, and eight of them are probably really good.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah, and then you'll have that one unit where it's just okay, this is gonna be a challenge, and and you're thinking about it a month before you start, and you get a few minds together, and it's okay, it starts coming together, and then yeah, there's a lot of problem solving in logging, tremendous amount.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

I say it lovingly in some of my speeches, you know, my dad's just a dumb logger. It's so far, like so far from where it's at today, there is no such thing as a dumb logger. There never probably has been. I mean I should preface that and just say that. But the boy, you you are not only problem solving, but you're constantly cost analysis in your head. You're constantly how many loads a day. We need to get nine today, we need to get 14 off this per day in order to hit X, Y, and Z. We got trucks coming in and out. We've got it is a constant amount of brain waves working, Roger. Wouldn't you say?

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Oh, yeah, because you're you know, there's certain quotas you have to reach. List lander wants 15 loads a day, and this one wants 10 or 20, but we usually generally ship about 80 loads a day. So yeah, you're always okay. How many shortage of trucks? How can we make the trucks work the best? You know, this guy's broke down, or so you're always shifting around, or just like I said, anything logging, cutting, it's just the timing of everything. So it's a big puzzle. And if you're off a day on this guy getting there, and then that creates the big when the train stops, it's not good. So you got to keep the ball rolling really good. It's uh it's a lot of planning, but you know, if you put it on the calendar, that's what I was telling my nephew. If you just put it on the calendar, and this is how many days you should get, and this is how many loads we should average, we're gonna be close to right here because this is how much volume there is, and and it's usually, you know, you just do the best you can and you make it work.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

You you just blew Jared's mind, Roger, just so you know. We've talked about this on the podcast before, the the just the massive difference between you know, Wisconsin, Alabama, Mississippi, you know, maybe it's New Mexico, maybe it's our friend in Arizona, you know, a past president of the PLC that logs in Arizona, you know, it's very different everywhere you are. Roger, maybe one thing that you feel like having traveled around the world, literally, looking at logging, one thing that universally is always the same. What is that?

SPEAKER_00 26:02

I would have to say pride. I mean, loggers have a lot of pride. I mean, you like to say you got that huge investment, you got a lot of families that are you're supporting. You have to perform. If you're a slacker, not performing, you you let a lot of people down, your your family, their families. But I really do think pride is everywhere you look, it's just they're always proud to say how they're doing something or how you know how we can do better as an industry. We're always fighting for the good of the industry, and we're always defending it a little more than we should. So, you know, why we're cutting trees, and you know, we have to explain how you know carbon's good in a in a two by four just as well as it is letting that tree stand there. But but I do. I think we all come together and it's there's a lot of pride in our industry.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Yeah, I think there should be. I mean, listening to you talk and everything, it's like, yeah, there's a lot to be proud about.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

No, I I agree too, and I that's the way I want my employees to feel too. Just be proud of what you do and and it'll all work.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

On that note, I was thinking about this while you're talking, pride is that that double-edged sword, right? You should be proud of what you're doing, but you should not be prideful in on the negative side of it, right? And you're a very humble person, Roger, and and I really always respect that about you. You probably don't give yourself enough credit. One of the ways that you have really revolutionized Western Washington loggers and their interactions with the youth is through the Adopt a High School program. And I think it's worthy to talk a little bit about that too.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Our company, we always seem to have two people retiring every year, so workforce development's huge. We really take great pride in going that extra mile and getting the youth out there to see our side. We'll probably do two field trips a year, just local schools, and I'll go help somebody else do one too. But if there's a student that wants to come out and see our side, whether it's a job shadow or a whole classroom, I'm there to help them because you know those kids have to get exposed to what we're doing. And that's the first thing they see is all of our company gets involved with the students, talking to them, and they see the pride that we have in our industry. And the Adopt High School, we started that about 10 years ago, I believe, but it's it's been good for us. I think the lat the last two fellow buncher operators we had were high school students working in our shop. My nephew has a great processor operator now. And then the the buncher operators are really good. I mean, these guys are all really, really good operators. They have one now that just turned 18, just got a CDL. He's ran the skitter last summer. Now he's uh in the rigging this winter, and he's gonna do good. I so we we we give these kids a chance. I mean, they have to learn. We challenge older guys to teach them right, you know, give them a little respect, put them in their place if they need to be. And some of them, you know, they think they might know it all, but get put knocked down real quick if they're that way, real quick in our industry. Yeah, you don't go out there saying, I know, I know, I know, because you'll get told real quick. But uh no, it's been a pleasure to work with kids. And uh I just think of back when I was 18, green, and you know, somebody says, go get a block, you know, and you're you know, a block is a great big pulley that a line runs through and it goes round and round. And you know, I went and got a block of wood because I, you know, that's what I thought a block was, or there's just so much lingo and sayings and in our industry you don't know. So, you know, you're treat them green guys with ex with respect. And you know, if if a kid can get up, show up every day on time, get get out of bed and show up and have a good work ethic. They they usually make it one way or another.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

How did you make your connections with the high schools? Like, what was your your method for creating a sort of a pipeline?

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Well, Todd Gordon from the PLC, he wanted what we can come up with for a program. And it was just like I remember when the last place when I worked for NDC Timber, I was in my early 20s, and his brother-in-law was a wrestling coach at Elm High School, and every summer we had three or four wrestling kids show up on various sides to work with the rigging crew, setting chokers and everything. So it's like, where's that? We gotta have that, we gotta get that high school connection where we get some kind of a pipeline where we can get some sort of kids showing up. So I'm actually most of our uh new employees are coming from that same high school. You know, it's kind of a local one. So or I don't know, if you invest in the school and you're there, you you see your name, they see your face, the kids come up and talk to you, and you and pretty soon the teachers are, hey, I got a prospect for you. In a couple years, this kid will be looking. And we have a young kid now in the in our shop that's 16, that's a wrestler from another school that's gonna be a good prospect, and I think he'll be a good worker. But I think if you just keep that pipeline alive, it's they're there for you.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

I think that's a succession plan that we don't normally talk about. No, most of the time we're talking about your business, right? The business of the succession plan, how how to get equipment and all that. One of the ways that you've stayed relevant and not been like dying for employees is the amount of effort, time, mental capacity that you've spent with those schools. I think that there's a direct correlation there, Roger.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Yes, oh absolutely, because it's for a while there it was a rough go for a couple years of dry spill, and it's like, okay, do we downsize? Do we and and we're still looking at other companies where boy, if we don't get more kids in this industry, uh the trucking's gonna go away. But and this is you know, loggers are gonna go, you know, we start losing phases of our industry, it's not gonna be easy to recover. So we all have to do a better job of recruiting kids. But I still think you can't complain about recruiting if you don't. If you're out there trying, then you can complain about it. But if you're not trying, don't be complaining because they're there. You just gotta you gotta work at it.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Yeah, and I think it's really important too to combat the misconceptions around the field. It's not a field out there that's that's causing damage to the environment. You know, harvest is a regenerative tool, it is necessary and it improves things. That message has to get to those younger kids.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

Yeah. Uh working forests is so great. We've covered the same ground twice now in the early 80s. Uh now we've we're logging the same ground again. I always told myself I was gonna retire when I hit the same ground for the second time. But this we're logging third generation timber, so it people just don't realize how fast it comes back. It it grows and it's very important. Working forces are very important to our to our livelihood. I I can't imagine living without wood. That's people say there's alternative stuff out there, but just looking and looking behind you, look at all the wood you see on your screen right there. I mean, it's everywhere. So we need wood products, it's very important.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

And it doesn't matter where you go in the country. So our podcast reaches you know from coast to coast. And uh honestly, uh, I don't know very many states that don't have any forest products that they could and should be using in some capacity. Heck, I couldn't believe when I was talking on the phone to somebody in Florida and they're like, Oh yeah, you've never been to Florida? Man, there's a lot of trucks that go down the road in Florida. There's so many loads of X, Y, Z. This is happening. And I'm like, I just don't vision that as a place to have forest products, but there's a lot of it down there.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Yeah, it's neat to drive different parts of the country. Yeah, and just, oh, there's trees. Oh, there's a log truck. Well, I didn't yeah, no idea. Exactly. So it is neat.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Jared, I believe that's most of the questions that I had for Roger. Um, Roger, you've been an amazing guest. We sure appreciate you and appreciate everything you do for the industry and jumping on with us today.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Well, Blake, we know we appreciate you. Uh you have a lot of energy and you're you're great for our industry. And uh as a logger, we really appreciate everybody's effort. You and Jared both. We just appreciate what you guys do for us big time.

unknown 34:16

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

And on that note, what's one last thing, Roger, you'd like to tell like the general public that maybe don't understand your line of work that you haven't covered?

SPEAKER_00 34:27

I'd like to say, you know, wood is good. Wood is so important. Have a little respect for the guys out there doing the job. Because we, you know, we're fighting. Carmen's gonna actually go speak at legislators tomorrow about they're trying to tie up more ground for carbon. You know, they're gonna sequester carbon and not log, you know, the working forest right in our backyard might be going away. And it's so disappointing to see that. When you, you know, you drive down the road, you see telephone poles, and I mean that do they realize where that comes from? It doesn't come from a little tree, it comes from an 80-year-old tree. So, in my opinion, working forests are way more important than you can imagine. I mean, they're good for the environment, good for habitat, good for the public to use, but just just because you see a clear cut doesn't mean it's a bad thing. That thing will grow up faster than you think.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Very good. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

Yeah, wood is good. On that note, we appreciate everybody listening. Uh, this is Wood and Iron, uh Jared and Blake, and Roger, our guests, signing off. That's going to wrap up this episode of Wood and Iron, the podcast for loggers by loggers. Big thanks for joining us out here in the woods in the air today. We appreciate you making us part of your day.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

And be sure to subscribe and share, and more importantly, send us questions and stories. We want to hear from the people who keep this industry running.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

So until next time, stay safe, stay sharp, and keep the woods working.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Wood and Iron is brought to you by the Wisconsin Forestry Center. The WFC is dedicated to promoting vibrant, sustainable forest and forest-based economies. Learn more at uwsp.edu slash WFC. Special thanks to those that brought wood and iron from the studio to the cast, editor Joe Rogers, producer Susan Barrett, and Feed Music by Paul Frater, Todd Hornick, and Stephanie.