S.1 Ep.5: Treat Them Well

In this episode of Wood & Iron, Oregon logger and Associated Oregon Loggers president Jeff Plikat shares stories from a lifetime in the woods, from learning the trade as a kid to running high-tech tether logging operations and leading advocacy efforts for the timber industry. Blake, Jared, and Jeff dig into the realities of modern logging—equipment costs, workforce challenges, safety, and why taking care of good people is the key to keeping the industry strong.

Jeff Plikat Bio:
Jeff Plikat calls himself a small-town, family man, born and raised on timber dollars. As a kid, he always knew he would be a logger when he grew up. Jeff started working weekends cleaning ditches and mud out of the tracks of the equipment. He’s been working for the company since 1998. Jeff has been married to his beautiful and loving wife for 12 years. They have 3 girls and 1 boy. Together, with Jeff’s dad, who started the company in 1979 and his sister, they employ 65-70 people at Plikat Logging in Roseburg, Oregon. They log, have 16 log trucks, and 4 lowboy trucks. The family works year round and enjoys summer weekends at their family cabins at Diamond Lake in the Cascades.  

Transcript

S01E05 Wood & Iron

[Blake Manley]

Welcome to Wood and Iron, the podcast for loggers by loggers. We dig into the real stories, hard-earned lessons, and iron-sharpened wisdom that keep the wood industry moving. I'm Blake Manley with the Western Forestry and Conservation Association.

[Jared Schroeder]

And I'm Jared Schroeder with the Wisconsin Forestry Center. Together, we bring you the voices of the people who live and breathe timber. From the forest floor to the millyard door, from chainsaws to forwarders, we're talking shop, celebrating the craft and tackling the issues shaping forestry today.

[Blake Manley]

So grab your coffee, fire up your equipment, and settle in. This is Wood and Iron. Let's get to work.

Big thanks today for our sponsor, Manley Jobs, promotional educational material for all groups. Hey, welcome everybody to this episode of Wood and Iron. I'm Blake Manley, co-host with my good buddy over in Wisconsin.

Jared, how you doing? 

[Jared Schroeder]

I'm doing pretty great. I'm happy to be here today.

[Blake Manley]

We are privileged today to have one of my good buddies, a logger in Oregon, almost said former logger, but I'm the former logger, Jeff. You're the real logger. In Southwest Oregon, who's been at this quite a long time, Jeff is the current Associated Oregon Loggers president.

We're going to talk about that a little bit. We're going to talk about some of the advocacy work that Jeff does. But to start with, hey Jeff, thanks for being here.

[Jeff Plikat]

You bet. Thanks for having me, Blake.

[Blake Manley]

We always try to dig into your backstory a little bit. I think it's valuable for our audience. We're in several different nations and most of the states have listened to this podcast.

I think that's important for you to understand, Jeff, just because not everybody knows what it's like to log in Southwest Oregon. To start with, how'd you get into it? But then what's a day-to-day like?

We understand that every day is different, but what's your day-to-day like?

[Jeff Plikat]

I got started when I was just a kid. I can remember going to work with dad on the weekends and I just knew that I was going to be a logger when I got done with high school. I graduated high school in 1998 and actually my dad, for graduation present, got me a set of cork boots, graduated on a Friday and went to work on Monday and that's where I've been ever since.

I got a chainsaw and a couple of rednecks. It's not an easy living, but it's a good living, good, honest work. You get done at the end of the day and you feel good about yourself.

You feel like you actually got something accomplished and I couldn't think of doing anything else. This is my life.

[Jared Schroeder]

I'm a little bit outside the logging world, so there's a bunch of it that I don't really know or understand yet. When you were in high school, what kind of... Were you operating?

Were you running the chainsaw? What were you doing when you were in high school?

[Jeff Plikat]

No. When I was in high school, I was not old enough to actually set chokers or run chainsaw. You had to be 18.

We went out and we cleaned the sticks out of the ditches. We did a lot of weekend work with that. The equipment, running around out in the brush on these muddy roads, they get a lot of mud and stuff in the track.

My brothers and I, that was also one of our duties was to make sure that weekends we'd go up and clean the mud out of the tracks. You always got to have those clean when you're moving. Before we actually put debris, we put debris in streams now.

That used to never be a thing. We used to have to throw it out of the stream, so that was another one of our weekend projects. We'd throw sticks and brush out of little streams that we would be crossing, logging across, not taking the equipment across.

Just the odd jobs that really nobody wanted to do. That was kind of my job.

[Jared Schroeder]

Yeah. Seeing the stuff that your dad was doing must have been really enticing, because if you're doing those kind of jobs and you're like, yeah, I still want to do this, that means something. 

[Jeff Plikat]

Yeah. Yep. Just the smell of sawdust, man. It gets in your sawdust and pitch.

It's just, I swear I've got it in my veins.

[Blake Manley]

I know you do, and it's that smell. Every day I'm not in the woods and I'm not smelling that, I'm like, I'd rather be in the woods.

[Jeff Plikat]

Yep. Yep.

[Blake Manley]

Yep. It is an addictive thing. Actually, I see there's science out now that says the pine smell is supposed to be good for your stress level.

[Jeff Plikat]

Well, there's probably a lot of truth to that. 

[Blake Manley]

But white fir smell, that increases the stress. No, no, whatever.

So, Jeff, what kind of logging do you guys do with the family company now? What's one of your staples that may separate you from others?

[Jeff Plikat]

We do a little bit of everything besides the thinning. It's all clear cut. We do cable yarding.

We have four yarders, one big tower, and then three smaller swing yarders. And should I go into depth on what those are?

[Blake Manley]

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I don't think a lot of our audience will know the difference between a big yarder and a swing yarder.

[Jeff Plikat]

Well, a big yarder is just like a tree standing out there. It's got guy lines, just like a telephone pole hanging off of it. You could actually think of it as a telephone pole, with the big line going across the canyon.

And a swing yarder is just a smaller, the tower stands about 80 to 90 feet. Swing yarder is just 40 to 50 feet. We bring in the big yarder when we have long span reaches to do or deep canyons.

[Blake Manley]

What's a long span? People won't understand that.

[Jeff Plikat]

5,000 feet if you're hanging out there, 5,000 feet. Yarding 3,000 feet. Your skyline is the line that the carriage runs back and forth on.

So that one's always got to hang out there farther. And then skidding anywhere from 25 to 3,000 feet. And that's the yarding distance from the landing to the edge of the clearcut that we're logging.

[Blake Manley]

Jeff, but maybe explain why you hang out so far. What's the objective of being 5,000 feet out if you're only yarding 3,000 feet? I know what it is, but for our audience.

[Jeff Plikat]

All the grounds, it's not flat. So you've got to get out there in order to get enough lift to get the logs off the ground. We do full suspension.

That means you pick the whole tree off the ground and it doesn't touch the ground again until it gets to the landing. We don't like dragging the trees because it creates ruts and then you have erosion. So we try to get full suspension.

And in order to do that, sometimes you have to hang out there 5,000. I have done 6,000 feet. I don't like it.

That's just putting the stress limits on everything. And we do ground skidding. We have tiger cat shovels.

We do a lot of bunching. We have bunchers and bar saws. We do our own cutting.

And the ground skidding is the flat ground. That's the stuff we can take the machines out on and build roads. It's just an operation like that.

There's only three guys on the whole operation producing probably anywhere from 15 to 25 loads a day. Whereas a yard or side, you're 5 to 10 loads a day. Way, way more productive.

We prefer just to do the shovel logging. It eliminates the people. And as we all know, that's becoming harder and harder to find is people to run these yard or sides.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah, and then, you know, you're talking danger level. You know, on a yard or side, it increases because you're steeper. People are outside the machines typically more.

So when you can, trying to put a person in a machine, you know, the ground operations are better.

[Jeff Plikat]

Yep, for sure. And we do a lot of tether cutting for our yarders. So that makes it safer too.

And tether cutting is what we have. It's called a tether base. Summit is the one that we use.

It's a big excavator. They mount a big winch on the back of it. And the line runs, they put an extension on the boom.

Line runs up, up the boom, down to the bucket, and then out to a bar saw. And he'll go on 50, 60% ground cutting and putting the trees into piles.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah, for anybody listening to this that has never seen tether logging in person, one, you're not, it's not like everybody in the world has seen tether logging up close and personal. But if you have a chance to look it up online, watch a YouTube video. There's plenty of them out there on tether logging.

It's created a safer way to cut trees and efficient, you know. Now, Jeff, and maybe we go into that a little bit. But it's also pricey.

And that price is on your shoulders.

[Jeff Plikat]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it's, for a tether base, you're talking, we just, the last one we bought two years ago is $450,000. And that's for a used machine.

I mean, the machine is completely wore out. You're basically buying the winch that does, that's what does all the work. And then you've got a bar saw, you're talking $700,000, $800,000 for the bar saw.

So you're well over a million, million two, million three for that setup.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah. You know what my dad would tell me? We got to get my dad on the podcast someday, Jared.

But dad would say, I can buy a lot of chainsaws for that.

[Jeff Plikat]

Yeah, yeah. You could, you could get a lot for a million three.

[Jared Schroeder]

How much training goes into preparation to be able to operate one of those? I know if I was going to sit in a million dollar machine, I better know what I'm doing.

[Jeff Plikat]

Yeah. Well, we've been pretty fortunate. The guys that we put in them have been, you know, running shovels, log loaders.

And so it was a pretty easy, smooth transition for them. We have a real hard time for that reason, breaking someone in because it's over, it's a million dollar setup. And it's just, I've tried to get some of these younger guys to get into it.

And the trials and tribulations, it's just, I would much rather work with the older guys that have some experience. I mean, I know we've got to start somewhere, but it's hard for us to get a good, dependable young guy that, that wants to learn. There's just, that just doesn't seem like we can, we can't seem to attract.

[Blake Manley]

I agree. That's one of the challenges, you know, for our audience. And I think this is a good transition, Jeff, for our audience members, just been very much a part of building a new workforce and filling the pipeline and active with high school programs, active with the Future Natural Resource Leaders, which is a big high school program.

Think FFA for Forestry and Natural Resources in Oregon. Jeff's been a part of a lot of different things with that. And he's still, you know, I normally say get involved and you'll find somebody.

Jeff's been very involved. Still hard to find anybody. Jeff, I guess this is a good transition to talk about the non, like actually on the ground logging stuff that you do.

So you're the president of the Associated of Oregon Loggers, the Association of Oregon Loggers. What does that entail? How'd you get into that?

Talk about that a little bit.

[Jeff Plikat]

Well, that's a, that's a funny story. I've always been good friends with Jaime Yraguen when he was the president, when I came on board. He's another local logger right here in the Valley.

Great friend, big mentor to me. My wife and I decided we never stopped at Wendy's and we stopped at Wendy's one day. I have no idea why, went in, had a cheeseburger while Jaime and his wife walk in.

And he never stops at Wendy's either. And the first thing he says to me, he's like, Mr. Plikat, how are you? You've been on my mind a lot lately.

And I didn't think anything of it. And he sits down, he's like, so what do you think about being, becoming a part of Associated Oregon Loggers? And before I even had a chance to answer, my wife said, yes, we'll do it.

And I said, well, I think we should probably talk about this. She said, no, we're in. And Jaime shook my hand.

He said, good. We'll see you next week at the meeting. And I've never been back to Wendy's since.

He's never been to Wendy's. My first meeting, he introduced me to the rest of the board. And you start out, you know, it's a 12-year commitment.

And that was the hard part for me. You sign up on this to be a part of this association board. And it's, you're committing 12 years that you, like a guy for me, has to drive once a month from Umpqua Valley to Salem for our executive meeting.

And it's, it's a lot. It's been, it's, it's had its ups and downs. It's been tiring.

I actually wanted to throw my towel in and be done with it at one time. And my wife, she said, absolutely not. You're not, I'm not going to let you give up that easy.

So my wife is a big part of why I'm here. On the flip side, I'm glad I'm here. I've met a lot of great people, learned a lot just about, you know, the ins and outs of AOL.

I'd had no idea AOL is what it is. You know, they, they do so many different things for our industry as far as, you know, from helping companies get their safety programs up and running to sitting in the state capitol and fighting for what's right for us. And, you know, just seeing how it all works.

It's been pretty amazing. And now we're going through the process of finding a new executive vice president, because our current one is retiring here in July. And so now we're transitioning, going through that process.

And that's the whole different ballgame. You know, I'm used to guys coming into the office and filling out an application. And I look through it and say, hell, you're hired.

What time can you catch the, catch the crummy in the morning? And trying to hire someone for this position, you know, we've, I've got 18 applications I'm going through. We've got zoom meetings coming up, in-person interviews.

I mean, this is, this is a whole new ballgame for me. And, and I would not have been experienced this have I not been on associated organ loggers on the board. As far as being the president, you know, I still haven't got my head kind of wrapped around it.

I've been at it now for a year and a half. And the last guy that was president, he said, you know, just when you think you've got it, it's time to hand it over to the next guy. And I, he's absolutely right.

You know, I'm just now starting to get my feet under me and hell, I've only got seven more months to go and I'm done.

[Blake Manley]

Jeff, I've appreciated your leadership. My family company was based out of Oregon and I have a soft spot for Oregon loggers. I've appreciated your leadership and AOL’s in general.

Maybe dive into a little bit of the difference, you know, between the, the AOL and other associations that you've been a part of. 

[Jeff Plikat]

I’m going out of the sun, the sun's starting to shine through my window here. 

[Blake Manley]

Everyone can't see it. We can see it, you know, but Jeff is, and this is, this is so appreciated on our end. Jeff is in his truck in the woods, zoomed in to be able to be a part of our conversation today. And we, we super appreciate that, Jeff, but that's the life of a logger.

You know, things didn't work out today to where Jeff was able to be in the office in quotation marks. He is in his office. He's in his truck in the woods.

[Jeff Plikat]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 

[Blake Manley]

So what set AOL apart a little bit?

[Jeff Plikat]

The other board that I've sat on, I sat on the Oregon Logging Conference Board of Directors, and that's actually where I met you. I sat on that board for, oh, it was about six years. And as I started moving up the ranks in AOL, it just, my heart was more with AOL than it was with OLC.

Not that OLC is not, not important. Don't, you know, that's, that's not at all what I'm saying. I just, I knew what my role was going to be coming up with Associated Oregon Loggers, and I wanted to focus more on that.

But as far, you know, they're, they're pretty close to the same. They have the same purpose. You know, they're out there doing what they both think is right for, for the loggers and for the timber industry.

And OLC is a great organization. Again, they've met lots of great people and, and learned a lot. I can't pinpoint what exactly it is that sets AOL apart.

Just for me, it's more personal, I think, to be, to be a part of, of AOL than, than any other organization right now.

[Blake Manley]

Jared, maybe you can chime in too. Maybe not. Jared's going through a snowstorm.

Yeah, this episode might come out later in the, in the summer, but right now in Wisconsin, they got two feet of snow. You know, these associations, some people don't understand when you pay your dues to be a part of, I'm not saying every single association is amazing and be a part of all of them, right? But how much they do for you.

And one of the things that you talked about, and then we glazed over, not on purpose, but is you have someone that sits in conversations in Salem, the capital of Oregon, to advocate when certain laws come up, yay or nay, for the loggers. And, and that's your voice, right, Jeff?

[Jeff Plikat]

That's absolutely right. We have our forest policy manager, Amanda Sullivan-Astor, she's, she's in the capital, I'll bet four days a week. And then we also have a lobby team that works for AOL that's right there in the capital.

And, you know, they're, they're going back to Washington DC sometimes and advocating there for us as well. So, you know, they do a great job and I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in their position.

[Jared Schroeder]

What would you say to, you know, loggers out there going, okay, so we got people doing that. That's fine. I don't need to be a part of it because there's enough people doing it.

What would you say to convince them to join an organization like that?

[Jeff Plikat]

You know, I used to say the same thing. I was, had that same mindset, you know, why, I don't need to waste my time doing that. It's, it's important.

And I guess you don't learn, you don't realize that until you're part of the association. I mean, I didn't realize it until I became, you know, a board member. You know, there's a lot, a lot of, a lot of people out there trying to stop us from doing what we do.

And our biggest shield is, as far as I'm concerned, associated Oregon loggers. You know, they're right there front and center fighting for us every, every inch of the way. And they're, you know, there's lots of other rules, you know, that they're working on to keep us going.

You know, we just, we just went through this for, well, we're currently going through the private forest accord, which is replacing the Northwest forest plan. And there's a lot of new rules coming up that, that AOL is right there helping set the rules, making sure that they stay within guidelines, that we can still go out and do our job. And they don't let the far left take control and get everything that they want.

Because right now they are, I mean, they're, they're working on the private land. They've got the government land all tied up and now they're going after the private land. And, and AOL is big in, in trying to hold these people off.

And it takes, the more members we have, the bigger, you know, the, the bigger voice we have. So I encourage anybody, if any association out there for any state, be a member and join the fight because it's, it's a battle every day.

[Blake Manley]

I don't want to bring out the geek in me, but most people that know me already know I am one. It's really the balance and the force, right? You have the dark side and you have the light side.

And, and I'm not going to say which one we're on. All right. People figure that out on their own, but you've got to have those conversations.

Sometimes they're, they're hard conversations, but you've got to have those conversations. If we don't have associations like yours, like the WCLA, Washington Contract Loggers, here in Idaho, it's the Associated Logging Contractors of Idaho. It's the Great Lakes, right, Jared?

[Jared Schroeder]

Great Lakes Timber Professionals Association.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah. If we don't have those advocating, then the only voice that's heard is one side of the issue. 

[Jeff Plikat]

That's right. Yep. 

[Blake Manley]

There needs to be balance.

[Jared Schroeder]

I think there's a lot of misconceptions out there. It is, you know, the most sustainable resource we have. We can make almost anything out of it.

And I think we've done a great job in this country being able to manage those, that resource appropriately. And I think that needs to be heard. 

[Jeff Plikat]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Blake Manley]

You know, guys like Jeff are there, you know, being the president of the association so that whoever they have as their policy manager right now, it's Amanda. And I know Amanda, she's amazing. Right now it's Amanda, but you have real true loggers, you, that are meeting once a month with that association to make sure that they understand how hard it is to do what you're doing every single day.

[Jeff Plikat]

Yep. Absolutely. Yeah.

[Blake Manley]

Otherwise we lose sight of that, Jeff. I mean, I'm not in it anymore. I used to say it all the time when I was teaching in Sweet Home, I'd have meetings with loggers, foresters, with the whole community, you know, three times a year because every single year removed I was from the industry, things were changing.

[Jeff Plikat]

Yeah.

[Blake Manley]

That's no different than your policy people that are working in Salem. We don't want to do their job, but every year they're removed from your job. You know, they need that information that you bring.

I love that your association and many of the other associations have real loggers doing the job every single day, talking to them.

[Jeff Plikat]

Hugely important. Yeah. Well, and you know, that's part of our mission statement is associated organ loggers run by loggers for loggers.

And, you know, everyone on the board is a logger. And, you know, we get together, like I said, you know, once a month and we direct the association and then they take it and go with it from there.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah, that's big stuff. I mean, super important. Support for this podcast comes from the Western Forestry and Conservation Association.

For over 100 years, WFCA has delivered trusted forestry education, professional development and workforce leadership across the region. Learn more at WesternForestry.org. You know, I'd like to kind of pivot right now and times are pretty tough, but we can talk about that a little bit in the whole forest products chain right now.

You know, loggers, your equipment are more expensive. It's harder to hire people. It's more expensive to hire people.

The jobs are harder and harder. The easy ground in quotes has been logged over the last few years to where you're having to reach deeper 5,000 feet out type things. But it's hard for the mills right now.

It's hard for forest land ownerships right now. You know, the industry's on a, you know, it's an ebb and flow, right? And we're on one of those right now.

How have you mastered, and I say mastered because you're successful at what you do. You may not think it that way and that's okay. But how have you mastered this challenge to where the high cost, the tough and all that, yet you're still very successful?

[Jeff Plikat]

Oh boy, I don't know if we've mastered it. We just have good people. And I guess we're as good as our people are.

And I feel like we've got some of the best. And, you know, a lot of the landowners that we work for know that we have some of the best, you know, it's not me. I mean, I don't sit in this shovel and 

I don't go over the hill and set chokers anymore. I mean, I'd love to, but I just, I don't, you know, and it's those guys. That I feel, you know, they keep us going every day in order to keep those guys.

We have to pay them well, treat them well. I guess one of the things that we, I guess, have mastered, you know, is treating our people well. You know, we have insurance for them.

They have retirement plans. They have short term disability here that they get a month's paid vacation. Every one of our operators has to pick up the drive and they get, as far as I'm concerned, a pretty damn good pay.

We talk to a lot of the other loggers around here. That's one thing we've always done is stayed in communication with the other loggers, you know, and try to keep our wages relatively close to everybody else. That way we, I mean, there's always going to be people going somewhere else because, you know, the grass might be a little bit greener, but it's only 50 cents or something, you know, 25 cents.

So we try to, we all try to stay within the realm of paying the same. We just, we do offer, I think, a little bit more than some of the other guys around here. And I think that's a big part is to our success is that we can offer those things.

And then in return, we get extra effort out of the guys that work for us because they know that they have a place to go to work. They work every day. They have good equipment to run every day.

And we work year round. I mean, we work in two feet of snow if we have to, you know, we work in flood and waters or 90 degree weather as long as, as long as fire season doesn't shut us down. And it has, but we, we work every day and our people know that and they appreciate that.

[Jared Schroeder]

How many people do you employ?

[Jeff Plikat]

Right now, I think we're at about 68 counting our truck drivers. We have truck, we do everything from cut the trees off the stump, get them to the landing, get them to the mill. We have 16 full-time running log trucks.

And then we hire depots. If we need more, we have four low boy trucks. We have a full shop for the rolling stock.

We have six shop mechanics, five field mechanics. If it's, if it's broke, our mechanics work through the night to make sure it's running the next day.

[Blake Manley]

And then when there's not as much to do, they're maintaining the fleet. You know, it's not like, well, there's nothing to do.

So they're going to play cards on, on the card table, right? There's always something to do.

[Jeff Plikat]

Always something to do. Always something to do. We only run two yarders.

But as I said earlier, we have four, we try to rotate them out, you know, run one every, you know, every six months, we'll bring one into the shop, take another one out and go through the one that's at the shop because you can't get them in. I mean, you can get new hydraulic yarders that are going to cost you 2 million bucks. But as far as, you know, the old Thunderbirds that we run, you just, you can't get them anymore.

And, and so you've got to maintain them in order for those to run every day. And in order for that to happen, we've got to have a cycle. And I feel like we've got a pretty good cycle that, you know, it's just like getting oil change in your pickup.

You take it in every 6,000 miles and get an oil change. Well, we run our yarders hard for six, seven months and we'll, we'll rotate them out, bring it to the shop, go through it. Make sure bearings, everything's good.

And then do it again. And I feel like that's another big part to our success is that we don't have a lot of breakdowns. And that's for that reason, because we may, we have a good maintenance program with our mechanics and they, and they're all good.

Well-educated people have been around a long time. They know the ins and outs of these older machines.

[Blake Manley]

If you had to guess, you got 60 plus people employed, right? If you had to guess what's your average age?

[Jeff Plikat]

Right now, I would say, golly. 

[Blake Manley]

Older than you? 

[Jeff Plikat]

Um, actually, you may have forgot how old I am.

Probably our average age, I would say would be around 45 to 50 average. We've got several people that are retired, but still continue to come to work every day because they, they love it. They love working here and they are afraid they're going to get bored if they stay home.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah. Dad, dad was just up here at my house and he's saying the same thing. He's like, every time a log truck goes by the corner, he lives right on a corner.

He's like, I sit there and I look at him like, where'd that log truck come from? Well, where are they cutting up there? And then he's like, I got to get in the truck and go bop up the road and see where they're cutting.

You know, it just gets in the blood and you just can't get it out.

[Jeff Plikat]

Yeah. That's the way these, you know, most of them are retired truck drivers and they just, you know, truck drivers spend their whole life talking to somebody, whether it's on the radio or on the job or at the mill, you know, and God, they retire and just sit at home and all they have is the wife to talk to the wife, get those used, go back to work, get the hell out of here. That lasts about a month.

[Blake Manley]

I appreciate all of that. Jared, I saw your reaction, but maybe, maybe you could talk about it when he said full benefits and what they do in Western Oregon, that's different than a lot of the rest of the country.

[Jared Schroeder]

Yeah, I think so. And I think that really, that has to be helping to recruit where you can, because oftentimes I grew up on a farm, right? And so there, there are some parallels there and we did not get benefits growing up on a farm, all the paths you could drink, but that, that was besides the point.

But I think having, having that full benefits package, not only makes it feel or sound more like a profession, but can draw people in and be like, look, there's benefits. This is a high quality career path.

[Jeff Plikat]

That was our goal. When we got, when we put our benefit program together for package together, this we knew we had to do something to attract people. And I mean, really, we were already at the, at the top of the wage list.

And so the only thing we had left to do was to start adding vacations and short-term disability insurance and paid holidays. And, and once we did that, it's not that really attracted more people, but the turnover slowed down. People started staying.

They didn't, they didn't feel like they were going to get any better going anywhere else. So that's helped us a lot.

[Jared Schroeder]

Yeah. I imagine that I'm not going to jump ship for an extra quarter an hour if they're not offering, you know, a month off, that's a pretty good deal. They'll spread that out.

[Jeff Plikat]

Yep.

[Blake Manley]

You know, one of the things I think we need to note is, is while that is unusual West of the Cascades, you have that filtering into the industry, more and more Western Washington, Western Oregon, where there is a decent, I'm not going to say that they're always there. No, they're not all equal and all of that, but there's a pretty decent benefit package over there. Why do you think Jeff, and I know you've spent your whole career where you're at, but why do you think Western Oregon, Western Washington are able to, to offer that?

Whereas like here in Northern Idaho, you talk about benefits and logging and it's rare. I'm not going to say never, but it's rare. Eastern Oregon, where I grew up, there are some, but it's rare.

What do you think the difference is?

[Jeff Plikat]

Boy, I don't, that's a good question there. I'd like to just go a little political on you and I have some opinions there, but I won't do that, but I don't really know how I just, it's just something that. Is that's just kind of been filtered down our way.

You know, that's just how it was in, in Northeast Oregon or not, you know, not Northeast, but Northwest up around the, you know, the Columbia Basin and then it slowly trickled down our way. I mean, hell, they were doing this up there long before we ever started having these kinds of benefits. And maybe that was just in part to people moving out of that area, moving down here and, you know, talking, talking to other people, you know, they got benefits up there.

Why don't you guys have them down here? It's just something that we just, we knew we were going to be faced with it and here we are, but I, I don't really know. That's, that's the only I can figure as to why.

Was it a sizable burden to start doing that from? Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

It's, it's cost you a lot of money. You know, when you start, and when I say months paid vacation, so we offer, it's a week's paid for the first year and then you can get up to a month's paid if you, you know, as long as you're here for that, for that period of time. But yeah, I mean, that's, that's a big cost and we have a lot of people that just don't even take the time off.

They just want the money. Works better for us because then we don't have to find someone else to run their equipment or build their shoes while they're off. But it just, I mean, we, we had to, you know, transfer that into our cost when we're figuring on the price of what it's going to cost to log a job.

I mean, it just, and a lot of the landowners around here realized that, you know, we told them if you want us to do the job and you want it done right with these kinds of people, this is what it's going to cost because this is what we have. This is how we have to treat our people in order to keep them. And they've been pretty receptive to that.

We haven't had a lot of backlash over raising our costs. I mean, we do get some and it just, it is what it is. I mean, the costs go up, everything goes up and we can't absorb all of it.

We absorb what we can, but we've got to pass it down the line.

[Jared Schroeder]

Would you say that with the amount of retention that you're able to have now, that it sort of offsets that loss of productivity that you would have if you were constantly having to rehire new employees and train them from scratch? Is there some level of comparability on the cost of those benefits? So the cost of training new people on a regular basis?

[Jeff Plikat]

Oh yeah. Well, I mean, you figure you put somebody that's never sat in a machine and a million dollar machine and you could, I mean, you could tear that thing up in five minutes. So yeah, it's definitely a benefit for sure.

[Blake Manley]

You know, Jeff, you mentioned something that another rarity, and I know you know the answer to this one, so I won't, this is a lob question. You said multiple times you guys get to work year round over there. Yep.

That's not the case in Wisconsin, right? That's not the case in Northern Idaho or Northeast Oregon where I've logged. Maybe break down the why on that one a little bit.

[Jeff Plikat]

Well, we were currently, I'm sitting on a dirt road, you know, that if it was raining, clearly we wouldn't be in here. But we, these landowners, they build a lot of rock roads. And that's, you know, you got to have rock and they're not scared to rock roads.

I mean, that's, you just have to, we get so much rain that, you know, in order to work in the winter, they have to rock roads. We don't have the near the restrictions like they do over on the east side. You know, in the wintertime, you can only work if the ground's frozen because you're going to, it's going to turn to, you know, what's going to do over there when that ground thaws out.

It just turns to mud. And they don't, I don't think, spend a lot of time and money on building good rock roads. They try to hit it hard in the summer.

You know, that's their go time over there, which summers are go time too. You know, we do, we will shut ourselves down in the winter on ground-based sides because we don't want to create a lot of mud. So we kind of, we monitor that.

But usually if we have to shut down, we'll take those guys and we'll go do something else. I mean, there's like you said earlier, there's always something to do. We go sweep the floors in the shop if we have to.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah, pick weeds in Jeff's garden.

[Jeff Plikat]

That's right. 

[Blake Manley]

No, but so the rock roads, absolutely.

You know, one of the things I noticed when I moved over there is the soils are a little different and then shovel logging, you know, ground-based when I grew up and it's still this way, you know, in a lot of places, it's just straight up a skidder, right? That's your ground-based operation. You're a skidder or a cat, done.

But over where you're at, you know, that shovel logging, actual true shovel logging, they're grabbing with a loader, with a shovel, and they're putting brush underneath the track so they're able to keep clawing out and staying up on top of that. Maybe talk about that a little bit. That's a great way to log.

[Jeff Plikat]

Oh, yeah. So we definitely use the brush to our advantage. You know, a lot of our operators, they treat the ground as if they own the ground.

So they don't go out there and make a mess, you know, and if they do turn up some dirt or make some mud, you know, they're always taking the time to fix that. And that's a big part of why they have the opportunity to work year-round because they do take care of the ground. And yeah, I mean, this particular job that I'm on right now, the brush, it was over my head when I looked at this job.

I mean, we're talking the Sallal brush and Huckleberry brush that's 10 feet tall. So there's a fair amount of brush to work with on this job. I mean, you can stack it up as deep as you wanted and never touch the ground.

And then when we're all done, you know, we pile the brush and it looks like a park.

[Blake Manley]

Yeah, and then all the tops, all the limbs, all that kind of stuff, too, that break out. Especially on a flat ground job, you know, you're grabbing that top, you're putting it under the tracks, and then you're climbing on that. One, it's pushing it into the soil, right, and then decomposing.

And that's a good thing.

[Jared Schroeder]

This is another one of those misconceptions, I think. You think of, like, I've talked to people who are like, oh, they have a logger goes in, they just destroy the land, you know, they rip everything up, they take the trees and they leave. That's not the case.

That's not the truth of it. The way you're making it sound, there's a lot of care that goes into making sure you leave that stand looking as good as it can look.

[Jeff Plikat]

Yeah, we have rules to follow. You know, this new private forest accord, you know, we've got stream buffers that are wider, flow lines, you know, we've got to stay out of those. I mean, it's not just go in and rip and tear and get in and get out.

I mean, we as a company, and I know every other company around here, takes our time to make it look as good as we possibly can, because, you know, we're, I've said this before, loggers have always been in the spotlight, you know, and they're looking for anything they can to shut us down. And we don't want to give them that opportunity. So we do our best to make it look as good as we possibly can when we're done.

Like I said, our operators, they want it, they treat it like it's their ground. And that's why another reason why we work year round, because they know that we're going to take care of the ground. Like I said earlier, if it's too wet, we'll just, our guys won't work, they'll just go home or call and say, hey, what else you got to do today?

This is too wet to be out here right now.

[Blake Manley]

You know, Jeff, that gets missed in the common everyday person. They just don't see it and don't hear it enough. They're not out there.

Milt Moran, you know Milt very well. He said one time, he's a manager of 140,000 acre tree farm in Western Oregon. For those who don't know Milt, Milt said, you know, very few people get to get on a landing and actually see the process.

They see log trucks going down the road, but rarely do they actually get to see the process. And I think that's the same with like talking to a logger, a true logger, while they're passionate about their job. You know, very few people actually get to get on a landing and hear and think and see what you're seeing and hearing.

And that's something that we just, through what we do, we have to just keep getting people more opportunities to learn.

[Jeff Plikat]

Oh, we're always, we're learning something new every day. That's what my dad always told me when I first started working out here. If you're not learning something, then you need to find something else to do.

Because there's always, there's always, I mean, I learn something every day.

[Blake Manley]

Hey, Jeff, you know, we've appreciated your time a lot. You know, I've learned a lot. The one thing that we kind of ask people at the end, typically, and then Jared, if you have another question for him, please ask.

But if you had a piece of advice to tell somebody that has their stuff in a row, their ducks in a row, but they're just getting into the industry, maybe they're buying their parents out or something, or maybe, you know, they love the industry and they're getting into it. If you had one really valuable piece of information for them, what would that be?

[Jeff Plikat]

If you can find some good people, you better do everything you can to hang on to them because the good people are hard to find. Dad has always said, you know, if you don't have, if you don't have good people working for you, because you can't do it all yourself. That would be my biggest piece of advice to someone just coming in is to treat your people good because they're your backbone.

If you ain't, if you don't have them, then you're, you're never going to make it unless you're just a one man band. I don't, I couldn't answer that because we've always been, been a pretty big, big company and I've tried to do a lot myself and I, you can't do it all yourself. 

[Blake Manley]

People are important.

[Jeff Plikat]

That'd be my biggest, biggest piece of advice to someone is treat your people good.

[Blake Manley]

Well, that's all I have for Jeff. We want to say thanks, Jeff. Jared, anything else?

[Jared Schroeder]

No, this was, this was really interesting conversation. I mean, I got two big takeaways. You know, I got that, that treating people well, having those benefits, if you can afford it will pay off in the long run.

And the equipment rotation, I mean, you know, keep it working. So you're not losing time from breakdowns. Really interesting.

So really, really glad to hear it.

[Jeff Plikat]

Thanks for having me. It was fun. It's been an hour already.

[Blake Manley]

See, that's how enjoyable it is to be in my presence, Jeff. That's not true. Hey everybody, we appreciate you listening.

This is Wood and Iron. Jared, Blake, Jeff, signing off. 

[Jeff Plikat]

Thank you.

[Blake Manley]

Bye everybody. 

That's going to wrap up this episode of Wood and Iron, the podcast for loggers by loggers. Big thanks for joining us out here in the woods in the air today.

We appreciate you making us part of your day.

[Jared Schroeder]

And be sure to subscribe and share and more importantly, send us questions and stories. We want to hear from the people who keep this industry running.

[Blake Manley]

So until next time, stay safe, stay sharp and keep the woods working.

[Jared Schroeder]

Wood and Iron is brought to you by the Wisconsin Forestry Center. The WFC is dedicated to promoting vibrant, sustainable forests and forest-based economies. Learn more at uwsp.edu/WFC. Special thanks to those that brought Wood and Iron from the studio to the cab. Editor, Joe Rogers. Producer, Susan Barrett.

And theme music by Paul Frater, Todd Hornick, and Sammy Mead.