Crewing & Pacing Western States: Trail Angels, Race Rules, and Stories from the Trail

Three weeks out from the 2026 Western States Endurance Run, Assistant Race Director Carrie Meng and board member John Trent dive deep into everything crews and pacers need to know before race day. They kick things off with a look back at the origins of crewing and pacing — all the way to Gordy Ainslie's first unofficial run in 1974 — and share memorable stories from board members Mo Livermore and Charles Savage that capture the unpredictable, adventure-filled spirit of Western States. Carrie's own crew from her 2025 finish weighs in with practical tips on parking, shuttles, GPS coordinates, and keeping yourself together so your runner doesn't have to. John reflects on eleven finishes and the role his family has played every step of the way. The episode wraps with a full rundown of official crew and pacer rules, reminders about the Thursday crew briefing, medical research recruitment, and a reminder that at the end of the day — this is a run, not just a race. Take it all in.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Welcome to the Spirit of Western States, the official podcast of the world's oldest and most iconic 100-mile trail race, the Western States Endurance Run. I'm Carrie Ming, the Assistant Race Director, and I am joined by my co-host, John Trent, Western States board member, aid station captain, and overall amazing human being. John, we are three weeks out from today to the day from the 2026 Western States. How are you feeling about everything you have on your plate between now and then?

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Yeah, yeah, Carrie, um, thanks for the intro and happy to be a part of this. Um, yeah, it's it, you know, I think we're to that point now where, especially on a morning like this morning, where the race is just literally, you know, now three weeks away, and you look at your watch and you go, so I live in Reno, so it's 8 a.m. And you're like, okay, so the race, you know, the all the leaders obviously are through Red Star Ridge at this point, three weeks from now, and then the rest of the field is now, and you start thinking about that, and then that starts making you think about like, and where will I be? What am I going to be doing that morning? Uh, you know, as I'm getting ready. And, you know, you start going through the mental checklist, which is um can be pretty formidable at this point. And you start thinking about all the stuff that you need to do leading up to that moment, you know, about in the morning, three weeks from now, when it'll be a beautiful morning and the runners will be out there experiencing it and we'll all be a part of it. So hanging in there, you know, um, very excited. This is the point where the excitement I think really kicks in for us. So excited to start thinking about all the stuff that we have a privilege of being a part of. How about you? How are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Yes. Well, when you when we really start talking about it and counting down the days and then just thinking about race day, I do have to take a few deep breaths because I feel like we still, there's still so much to do in three weeks. Um, but obviously I'm very excited. I'm excited about our 370 runners that are coming in three weeks and experiencing Western States, either for the first time or some repeats and our field. And uh so I'm excited, I'm anxious. Uh uh, you know, we have a lot to do on the back end still, but all of it's great and we have a great team. But uh, so mostly excited with a little bit of anxiety sprinkled on.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Yeah. And again, curious about like, you know, kind of juxtaposing yourself now with where you were a year ago as you were getting ready to run the race yourself and all that. I mean, that had to have been, you know, three weeks out as you're training and still trying to stay healthy, and then you're in the middle of a bunch of stuff. That had to have been pretty, pretty uh overwhelming, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Yeah, overwhelming, absolutely would be the one word I would choose for that feeling. Yes. Cause still, you know, had all my responsibilities for, you know, as an assistant race director, but also, like you said, still training at this point, still trying to stay healthy and show up to the start line as ready as I could be. So it definitely was added pressure. I mean, it's the best kind of pressure because I was so grateful to even have the opportunity, but pressure nonetheless, um it uh at in different ways. And now, now it's just race pre pressure of of direct of working without the running, but which is also you know bittersweet too.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

For for sure. You know, and one last question before we, you know, get into this stuff. So if you if you the for the runners who are gonna be watching this who are gonna be three weeks out or whatever, as a as now as a as a as a successful finisher of the race, what would you tell them three weeks out? What what tip would you give them to kind of help keep everything in focus and not let it overwhelm them?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah. Okay, that's a good question. I mean, I definitely made some mistakes. I think I overdid it in the three weeks leading up. And some of that was just strictly due to my responsibilities with the race, but I did some other things that I didn't have to do that I did work-wise and just being part of the community leading up to it. I was out and about quite a bit. I was on my feet a lot the week of and the a week prior. Um, so I'd, you know, make sure you really, really take care of yourself. You know, training's not quite over. Like if you talk to Craig and probably other folks about in the last three weeks of still getting some downhill stimulus. So um that would I would give that advice, especially based on all of you that have run Western State so many times. But so training is not quite over, but still really taking care of yourself because a lot could be lost in these last three weeks if you overdo it. Um, there's some to be gained, but I think it's probably more at risk of things that could be lost. I'd rather show up probably a little bit under trained than of course hurt or exhausted. Um, and I did show up pretty tired at the start line. I I cried before the race started. And I mean, a lot of it was like fear um and just fear of the unknown. I had only run 100 miles prior to that in Florida. So, anyhow, um yeah, take care of yourself these next three weeks. That would be the my short answer of that.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Very sage advice, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Um speaking of that, John. So you we're gonna talk about brewing today, but you know, I still want to just talk about the rates for a minute. But we'll see you at the start line. Is that right? You'll be there on race morning.

unknown 5:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, Craig, Craig always lets me know that, you know, I'm still invited back to get up on the ladder and and provide some words to to our people before they set off on their amazing journey. Yeah. And I always I I I consider that a huge honor. I I uh, you know, I try not to overthink it. Um, there have been a couple of times where I've written down, I've kind of tried to script it out, and it it just feels more natural to me to to not do that, even though, you know, I am in one of aspects of my life, I'm a I'm I'm a sort of a professional speech writer. Um, but I I find it it's better to just kind of speak off the cuff and speak from the heart once you get up there and look around and and look down at all those people about five minutes, you know, about 4:55 a.m., you know, um, looking down at them and kind of getting, you know, kind of what the vibe is because every year it's different. Some years it feels sort of like almost like it's New Year's Eve kind of energy. Uh people are really excited. Um, other years it's it's kind of more introspective and inward and and quiet. And so I try to, I try to, you know, take that into consideration as I think about what I want to share with everybody. Um and it's always inspiring to me to to, you know, there, there are people that I know a little bit. Uh I look down, I mean, like for example, Emily Hoggood is is uh um an elite runner um who um knows a lot of people in the sport, you know, whether you're at the back of the pack, middle of the pack, front of the pack, Emily knows a lot of them. And I, you know, over the past few years, I always look at Emily for a second because she is always such a a bright and um positive presence. And that sort of energy, you know, that really helps as I try to come up with something that's hopefully will make sense to people.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

That's yeah. That's really amazing. And yeah, I love Emily, of course. And I've been at the start line. This will be, I guess, four years now, my fourth year. And last year it was in a totally different way that I was listening to you. And I did notice that you aren't reading off of a script, but man, it's always so beautiful and meaningful. Um, and it's something I always look forward to. So for those of you that are listening or watching, that'll be at the start line, you'll be gifted with um some words of encouragement and motivation from John Trent that morning. So really looking forward to that.

unknown 8:23

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it, Carrie. It's a real highlight for me for sure.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Great. Okay. And then from there, you do pretty much like rush off to head to Forest Hill once the race has started.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, you know, usually my wife, Jill and I, you know, we we pack up um and and get out of there and then try to get over to Forest Hill pretty promptly. You know, um the our Forest Hill crew, um, you know, it's it's mainly people from over here in Reno are running club, the Silver State Striders, Casey Green, um Brandon Day, Ken Castrico, Tony Jensen, those are the main operations folks, if you will. And they're there the day before, on Friday, already starting to set things up or whatever. And so usually um, by the time you know Jill and I get there, um, it it's it's set up and and everything is ready to go. It's pretty amazing because I can think back to years and years ago when it wasn't that it wasn't like that. And it was still sort of everybody was set, because we, you know, we felt like we had a lot of time. I mean, you know, the leaders wouldn't come in until about two o'clock, you know, one, one thirty, two o'clock in the afternoon. And that's not the case anymore. So you have to be ready before noon and ready to go, just in case. If if if Walmsley and Killian and Francesco and Adam and all those people at the front, if they just decide to put pedal to the metal and all gas, no brakes, you know, who knows when they're gonna get there. So uh so Forest Hill is is usually ready to go. And it it's it's really nice because at that point, you know, we try to all of our volunteers are there, we try to get them together, try to give them a motivational talk about what it means to be a part of Forest Hill, the history behind that as well, and get everybody pumped up. And, you know, my message always to to our volunteers there is no offense to all the rest of the aid stations. We love them, but we are the best aid station. We want everybody to feel we are the best aid station at Western States, and we're gonna make sure that every damn runner gets through our our aid station and continues on on the way to the get to the track of Forest Hill. And that is our safely, of course. And that is our number one goal. Nothing else matters. We we take all the noise out of the equation, and it's all about our runners and making sure that they're they're handled with love, respect, and encouragement to get them um on the way to Auburn.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

That's awesome. And I know that the runners feel that we hear it all the time. And, you know, I bet every aid station feels that way, that they are the best and that they're gonna do everything they can. So that's what makes this race so special, are people like you and Casey and Ken and the rest of the folks at Forest Hill and the other 19 aid stations that feel the same exact way that you do about their aid station. So, um, so yeah, I'm really excited for everybody running to feel that. And that was such a valuable thing for me to experience by running the race last year, and which is why it was really important to Craig and to all of you on the board that I experienced that um working for the organization. And it was, yeah, it was extremely valuable to have that firsthand experience of that love and care that you guys give all of our runners.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

So, so you know, obviously last year we knew where you were at the entire time. You're running. So this year, you know, in a nutshell, where all are you gonna be? What are you gonna be doing?

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Yeah, I'll be at the start and gonna help with some like kind of crowd control up at Immigrant Pass, the, you know, at the top of the first big climb. Um, now that the tram runs, which is new as of last year, um, and thanks to Hoka who uh funds that basically pays for to have the tram running early in the morning and people hike up, of course. We still have that tradition of people hiking up real early to get up to the top to watch folks coming over. But now that the tram is running and making it more accessible for people to go up, we've decided to kind of put a monitor up there to make sure that we're never you know blocking runners or that spectators are coming coming down the same way, runners are coming up and so forth. So I'll go up there and then I will immediately head out to my main focus is to be at aid stations where we have shuttles, which we will talk about today. Um, but but that takes some extra management. And um, one of the things that I'm kind of in charge of is like booking the shuttles and the management of it. So we have our on-site parking and shuttle managers. So I'm gonna go check on all of them to make sure all that is going well. I'm absolutely gonna stop in Forest Hill. We kind of have a new system, like what we're calling Forest Hill ambassadors spread out through the city, making sure that we are taking care of the community while we are uh in Forest Hill. So I have several stops to make and check in with people and see how they're doing and we'll eventually end up at the finish line once I get through all of that. So a lot of bouncing around.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yeah, yeah. It it and it goes, I don't know, you know, I mean, sure there are down periods and stuff, but it it goes by just like that. I mean, it is so fast. Yeah. It's like one minute Paul Lind or is, you know, firing his shotgun and next next thing you know, it's the golden hour. And everything that happens in between, it's just in the in the blink of an eye.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

So true. I know. And I'm gonna try to remind myself that while I'm out there and like just soak in every moment um to try to, yeah, to to beat that fleeting time a little bit. But yeah, you're right, it goes by so quick. Um so with all that said, we can jump into our topic today. We're chatting about all things crewing and pacing uh Western states. We have a few stories from board members to share. Uh, we have some thoughts from my crew that was out there last year.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Um, that they're Carrie, let me let me let me just say, real quick, can I interrupt you just for a second? Yeah. Your crew was amazing. They were the the nicest, most enthusiastic, most induit group I think I've ever really encountered. I mean, you know, you talk about surrounding yourself with positive people who believe in you. And that was apparent from the moment I met all of them in Palisades and throughout that experience. So glad to hear that, you know, you're going to be sharing some of their insight because those are really, really good people, really, really um thoughtful um and aware people.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Thank you for saying that. And I agree wholeheartedly, hit the jackpot with them for sure. And uh, you know, they got kind of drug into some pre-race responsibilities too, with you and I. We, you know, you conduct the media meeting the day before the race on that Friday, and we hand out credentials and they jumped right in and helped us combat that too. So, anyhow, they're wonderful. And yeah, I can't wait to share some of their insight with everyone too, from the crewing's crewing side of things. Cause I didn't, you know, I missed out on all that um since I was out there trying to finish the race. Um, and then once we get through some stories, we will go over our official crewing rules, some crewing suggestions that we have on our website. But um, I would love to start John with some history of how crewing and pacing came to be at Western States. And I'm guessing that you have a story or two to share um of how that all started.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate you, Carrie, always, you know, wanting to bring in some of the historical aspect to to what we're doing here. Um, yeah, so, you know, there is uh a connection with kind of pacing and crewing and what's going on today and what and how it all started for Western states back August 3rd, 1974, when Gordy Ainsley, you know, ran with the horses and, you know, finished the the course in under 24 hours on foot. Um, it was kind of an unofficial sort of, you know, as only as only Gordy could do it type of type of thing. But it I think it's an in instructive for the folks listening to hear about how this came about because I think it's kind of set the tone for what it what happens, what has happened since and what happens today with Pacers and crews. So, you know, Gordy was running along by himself, obviously, with the horses, and there are checkpoints along the way for the horses, and you know, so Gordy is getting taken care of, you know, at the checkpoints along the way. Um he had he had some good fortune, though, um, at Devil's Thumb. Uh a couple of his um good friends, Paige Harper and Diane Marquard, they were riding the Tevis Cup that day. Um, their horses went lame, and um Gordy was kind of struggling at that point. You know, he was um, you know, struggling up to Devil's Thumb and kind of hallucinating, kind of out of it, wondering if he'd go on cramped up and everything. So Pai and Diane quickly, you know, swung into action for him, gave him cell tablets, massaged his cramped legs, gave him words of encouragement. And so then, you know, because of that, Gordy was able to go on. So, really, I mean, that that might be the first instance of of crewing happening for runners at our race, um, you know, with with that instance there. And and Gordy has said he called he called Diane and Page his trail angels, his visible trail angels that day, as as only Gordy can phrase things. And I think that's the way, you know, um crew have since become. They are these visible angels that are out there helping the runners along the way. So it started right from the very beginning. And then, you know, pacing again, it it comes back to Gordy a little bit, where he was he gets into um, you know, Forest Hill, and there's a guy by the name of Clyde Nunn who's also known as um Cal Mountain Clyde, colorful character, a competitor in ride and tie, good friend of Gordy, usually in jeans holding a uh a beer type of guy. And so Cal Mountain Clyde decides to jump in to accompany Gordy, and you know, um, and he's gonna, you know, run Gordy in the rest of the way. And it becomes pretty apparent after a while. Gordy is at the height of his athletic powers and has got a second wind and is running really well. Cal Mountain Clyde, not so much, you know, as he's hanging, trying to hang with Gordy. And by the time Gordy gets gets to the river and gets up to the checkpoint at mile 82, Cal Mountain Clyde is completely trashed. He he collapses into the arms of the volunteers there. They have to help him. And he calls out to Gordy, that's a really hard trail, you know, and Gordy continues on. Cal Mountain Clyde is there, you know, kind of like, you know, having to be supported after basically running, I don't know, maybe about a marathon, about maybe 25 miles of the course with Gordy. But, you know, again, uh an uh an interesting, you know, um through point to where, you know, being a pacer has evolved, where we all have um stories of pacers who are really, really well prepared. They're on it. And we also have stories of pacers that unfortunately are not as on it as they should be. And, you know, it becomes almost a liability where, you know, they end up sort of like Cal Mountain Clyde, you know, kind of kind of having to be supported by the by the volunteers and telling the runner, keep going. You know, so yeah. So both pacing and crewing, you know, basically began from the very first iteration of of of the Western States endurance run back in in 1974.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Yeah, that's fantastic. I think that says so much about the responsibilities of pacers and crewers. And, you know, that was maybe just a little less official that maybe Gordy wasn't kind of expecting that help and it just happened organically. Love the phrase trail angels, because really that's what they are. You know, for any of us that have ever had crew or pacers, um, absolutely would consider them my trail angels. But great story. We also have a really lovely story from Mo Livermore that I wanted to share. And I'm just gonna read her story that she wrote to you and I because she wrote it so beautifully. Um and I'll just read it word for word. Um bring that up. So Mo says, A wonderful Western States memory as you think about pacing and crewing. In the late 80s, I was pacing a good friend from Forest Hill to the river on a beautiful moonlit night, well on her way to a 30-hour finish. We were winding our way along the bank of the river on the flat stretch known as Sandy Bottom, which wound in and out of willow thickets and sand and river rock. The evening was warm and moonlight danced off the rapids and lit our trail. Another runner with his pacer came up behind us and I asked if they wanted to pass. They said no, not then. And so the four of us made our way along chatting a little bit and just enjoying the beautiful night without a lot of time pressure since a 30 hour finish was in reach. It was one or two a.m. As Jackie and I focused. Focused on our footsteps through the willows, over the river, rock, and sand, the guys behind us finally said, Okay, we'll pass now. Since we had become friends as fellow travelers in the dark, I answered, sure, but you have to sing a song first. They laughed, and then suddenly the night was filled with the sounds of the most beautiful tenor voice I had ever heard. It literally floated through the night over the sound of the flowing river. Just incredible. The runner was in no rush to pass, singing this wonderful Hawaiian song, which transport transported us all to a place of comfort and relaxation as we made our way along the riverbank. Spectacular. Such a beautiful moment to share with literal strangers in the night, bonded by the event and the Western States Trail. And when the two guys finally moved past us, disappearing ahead into the night as the music continued, we looked up to see who this amazing singer was. But all we could see was that the runner was bare chested and barefoot. Oh, what a great story. Um, beautiful story. And I'm guessing that many of us have so many stories of that. There were just interactions we've had along the trail with strangers or with our crew. Um, I appreciate Mo sharing that with us. You know, Mo is on our board of directors and is part of the original Gang of Four, and I'm sure has hundreds more of those types of stories throughout the years. Um, and then Charles Savage, another board member who has run Western States 20?

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Um a lot of times. Um, he shared several stories with us. And if you wouldn't mind, John Trent kind of recapping some of the highlights of those stories for us about his like crewing or pacing experiences.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, happy to, Carrie. And and real quickly about about Mo. As you mentioned, you know, Mo is um, you know, the spirit of Western states in a lot of ways and has been for a long time. And it uh, you know, her recollection made me think about when Doug Latimer, um, who was a really seminal figure in the history of our run, you know, the uh he tied for first place in 1981 with Jim Howard, um, established the 50 to 59 age group record, which lasted for decades because he was such a superb athlete and such a superb runner and would just prepare, like you wouldn't believe, for Western States running 130, 140 miles a week and spending you know entire, you know, weekends out on the trail preparing. So when Doug Latimer was getting ready for to become the first runner to ever finish the race 10 times and get a thousand get the first thousand mile belt buckle, he hadn't prepared. He was, you know, he had, you know, he, you know, he he for a lot of reasons had hardly trained and was was really worried about being able to not just not just finish under 24 hours, but even finish the race. But he knew that um he and Mo were really, really dear friends. And he had he had recruited Mo to be his pacer. And it was, I believe it was 1991 when it was a really cold and rainy and foggy western states, which is hard to believe. So it was challenging for different reasons because it was actually really cold. Um, and then it got really nice. And Doug has shared a couple of different times that you know, Mo was pacing him, and he knew that was kind of like one of his secret weapons was having Mo out there, this dear friend of his, to share the experience and to get him through to the finish. And he did. He finished another 24 hours, got that 10th, you know, sub-24 hour finish, and made it um without a lot of training, a lot, without a lot of that really, really focused, you know, kind of almost obsessive preparation, but he was able to do it because of his of his dear friend, Mo. Um and and that's incredible. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

So sub-24 without training, no big deal. Oh my gosh. I had so much more respect for that sub-24 hour finish after learning it last year. Uh yeah, I bet there or Mo has helped many, many people in one way or another get their finish.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Yeah, she's always been this race's sort of secret weapon. So, you know, about Charles and Charles's recollection. So Charles Savage is a, you know, as you mentioned, is has has finished the race 20 times. And, you know, he is uh past president of Western States, has been on the board for decades. Back in the day, he was uh top 10 finisher at Western States as well. And uh, you know, if you know Charles, he is a very calming, reasonable presence and voice, you know. I mean, if you have like a really, really sort of difficult issue, Charles will help sort that through in a very logical, rational, calm, reassuring way. And so Charles's recollection is best, you know, he shared several of them, but I think that the one that is most entertaining to me, and he, you know, he shared this with me as well a few years ago, too. Um, so it was 1980, and Charles was living in Los Angeles at the time, and it was, he was obsessed with Western states at this point. He's in his mid-30s at that point. Um, you know, really, really loves Western states. And it's, you know, he's he comes into Forest Hill, doesn't have any pacers. Um, a couple of young guys uh volunteer to help him, which is great. You know, he's thinking, yeah, I got these young guys, young, strong guys, you know, they'll be able to help me, you know, for for quite a long time. But becomes readily apparent really early on that they've been drinking pretty heavily. It's because one of them falls off the trail, you know, and and then the the other, the guy's buddy, who's also been drinking, tries to help help him and he also falls. So Charles is like, oh my God, you know, I've got these young guys who are three sheets to the wind, um, you know, ostensibly helping me, but really I'm helping them, I think, trying to just make sure they don't fall off the trail. So Charles, I if I if I remember his recollection correctly, gets him to the Cal 1 aid station, which is about four miles uh out of uh Forest Hill and leaves them there, you know, because they can't go on and they don't want to go on, you know, and they wish him well or whatever. And, you know, as was the custom back then, you know, at the aid station, they're off, you know, they're drinking a little bit, you know, the aid station volunteers there. They offer Charles up some some drinks, and he's like, nope, nope, no, thank you. I got to keep going. But here are a couple guys just like you, and he leaves them there and continues on.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Join the party. I'm gonna keep running.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Yeah. Yeah. And so what's what's interesting is I think it speaks to what a grand adventure Western states was from the very beginning for our runners. Whether it was just the sheer distance, the incredible beauty of the course, the challenge, or these other aspects that, you know, would pop up during the race, and then you have to solve them.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Yeah, you know, and people just want to jump in and join the fun and the adventure of Western states, probably not really realizing what they're getting themselves into.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I think Charles fell in love with. I think it was that aspect of just, you know, he's living in Los Angeles, he's a he's a young professional. There's a lot of things that are kind of baked into one's life that that just they follow script. And Western states never has and never will. And these what what happens is what feeds the soul. And I think with Charles and, you know, his involvement, I think that's always fed his soul uh uh to an incredible extent. And that that story I think just sums it up, just the the grand adventure, what Western states can be.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Yeah, absolutely. That's a great story. Um, but we do not encourage drinking on the court. Whether you're a pacer or crewer, they'd say should so just caveat there. We want you to have an adventure, but yeah, let's let's save that for the celebration afterwards. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Have an adventure within the legal limit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Yes, exactly. Um, okay. Was that it for the for where you wanted to share with Charles?

SPEAKER_00 30:29

And I'll Yeah, yeah. It, you know, because Charles had a couple other interesting stories where, you know, a a pacer started hallucinating and started seeing seeing runners and mistaking them for bears. He had he had a veteran pacer who you know started having some flashbacks to being in combat, you know, while Charles was running. Um and uh, you know, throughout it all, I think what the the the lesson is, yeah, you know, your your pacers, whether it's Cow Mountain Clyde or drunk teenagers, drunk young people or veterans or people that are just kind of hallucinating, you know, the runner just keeps going, no matter what. I mean, that's that's job one, and you need to stay focused on that, even if your pacers might. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Well, that's a good segue over to talking about my crew. I sent a group text a couple nights ago letting them know that you and I are going to be talking about all things crewing and pacing, and just said, you know, if there's any stories or tips you want to share, um, send them over. So that turned into a quite a long thread. I won't go through everything, but um, you know, I asked, do we have, do they have any stories? And my friend Jen said, Sheesh, do we ever with a laughing emoji? But anyhow, I'll go through some of those things. But first, I'm wearing this shirt in honor of my crew who the day before the race all came out when we were about, I think it was when we were headed to the runner briefing, the racer briefing on Friday, and they all had shirts with my face on them. So I'm wearing this today in honor of them. And um, yeah, that's a pretty great shirt. And they had them on the entire weekend of the race. So at aid stations, it was really easy for me to find them. Um, but what that was one of the tips of advice I think Tyler mentioned was that he definitely rem recommended fun matching shirts. So there's that. Um, and but then they also gave some advice as far as being out on the course and driving and so forth. So I'll go through that. So probably by now most people have read if you're bringing a crew, if you're bringing crew, which of course crew is not required to finish or be successful at this race, we have 20 aid stations, so they're pretty close together. You get lots of support and a wealth of knowledge from the volunteers at these aid stations. Many of them have run Western States many times and other ultras and have been volunteering for a long time. And on that note, Red Star volunteers this year will be year 40 for them.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Yeah, the Scott family. Yeah. Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Scott family is wild. Yes. And they um also cook our finished food at training camp weekend. And they used to do the finish line food too. They would leave Red Star and go to the finish line and cook all weekend. That just changed in the last couple of years. That's not even been that long that they haven't been doing that part. But year 40 for Red Star. So I want to give the Scott family a shout out for that. But anyhow, if you don't have crew repacers, don't think that you're coming unprepared or that you're not gonna have as high rate of success because we have lots of help out there for you. But if you do, you have an option of having one crew hitting kind of a main aid stations or aid stations that you choose, or there's an option for an A crew and B crew. And that's simply just because of the logistics of getting to all the aid stations is not possible if you're just have one crew and one vehicle, the timing and the type time it takes to drive from one in in the high country, particularly from one aid station to the next. So I did have an A and B crew so that I could have somebody at every aid station um starting in the high country. So if I were, I mean, I would recommend that. Just it's kind of personal preference if you want to see your crew and have access to your own stuff or have that support at every aid station, then um then I would recommend it so then they can get to each aid station. But on that note, just ensuring that you're only having one vehicle go to each aid station. These aid stations are remote wilderness areas. Like we, I mean, it's an aid station for sure, but don't have pictured in your head that you're pulling out to some large paved parking lot on this beautiful paved road to get you there. Like it's in the wilderness and there is very limited parking. I mean, we're parking on the side of roads and dirt roads and squeezing people in, and in several situations, we're shuttling. Um, so you'll have to park, get on a shuttle and ride in. So please stick to the one-car rule. Um, it's gonna make your life easier and it's gonna make our volunteers' lives easier and um help everybody get to your runner on time. So if you are, as according to Tyler, lucky enough to have that many crazy friends to have an A, crew, and B crew, um, then that is what he would recommend. He ran in 2023 and he did not have A and B. And I can't remember if it was because I don't know if you remember, John, but that was a snow year, and we may not have had crew access to Duncan and Dusty.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

So that is probably the the reason why he just had the one crew. And so that means that crews, you couldn't see your crew until Robinson Flat, which is about 50k in. Um, so that was his situation because if we have a big snow year and their access is limited, parking is limited, then sometimes that does happen that you're gonna have less access. And that was hit the case in 2023.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

Yeah, Carriefine, now that now I'm thinking about it. I think it was I think Mosquito Ridge Road. I think the the the drive to that side, the the road, I think was compromised compromised. In addition to the conditions and all that stuff, I think that was that was part of the issue was that was part of the issue. It's a windy road and it's a difficult drive anyway, but there was there was a part of it, I think, that got compromised. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

That's right. That's right. Because we went and looked at it. I was with Craig and I think Lori, I can't remember who all I was with, and part of the road was just gone and it extremely dangerous. So that is exactly what it was. So Mosquito Ridge Road was not open and we couldn't get to those eight stations. So um, so Jesse, one of my crew members, said that getting to the eight stations took longer than expected because you have to park and walk. So you're really never just pulling up and you're where you want to be. So there's a lot of walking, wear a closed set of shoes that are comfortable. Um, it's hot and dusty. So very dry and hot and dusty. A bandana for your face, bring a chair, wear a hat, and hydrate, of course. So taking care of yourself as crew and pacer is super important, and taking care of each other as crew is important so that your runner doesn't end up taking care of you, like in some of the stories we just heard. But um, yeah, making sure you're taking care of yourself and other crew members. So walking in and out of Duncan Canyon, Dusty Corners, and Greengate are long, dusty, and rocky, but totally worth it. Thank you, Tyler. Um, remind crews to do what the parking crew and volunteer tells you. Space is limited. They know what's better, works best based on what parking is available. Be nice, be prepared to walk, be patient. These are all very great tips that I would recommend as well. Um, Mosquito Ridge Road to the south side of the course is beautiful, but very windy and making just sure you give yourself plenty of time. Um, and with that, Tyler also says there's plenty of time to get from one aid station to the next. So be intentional, but not overly hurried. Um, you know, we we can't have everybody show up at aid stations at the same time and wait for hours. And then, you know, that's when we really start running out of parking. But of course, we want you to get there on time for your runner as well. Um, a tip is like Wharton's Martin Market in Forest Hill. They are a great place to resupply. So uh we definitely recommend stopping in there and they have wonderful milkshakes, which is a nice treat for the crew. Yeah, um let's see. As a pacer, Tyler says it's an honor to share that experience with your runner. Western states may be a dream that many have been wishing on for years. So do whatever you have to do to get them to the track. Just do it. Be curious about what lies ahead. It doesn't always get worse. And yes, you can do this. Um, he they also recommended having a hotel room or a place to stay in Auburn for home base and um getting showers, taking naps, things of that sort. Yeah. Um uh says if you have like kind of you know older parents that are with you, I think his parents was there, were there for his race in 2023 and weren't gonna stay up all night. So they would go to the hotel. So, you know, a logistical recommendation. Jesse thought that as a pacer going to training camp. It's too late for that, training camp's over, but um, that she thought that that was essential because she got to know her part that she was pacing, which Jesse paced from Green Gate to Pointed Rocks and which was almost all in the dark during the race, but she did come to training camp and was able to see that in daylight. Um, but again, too late for that. Training camp is over. And hopefully, you know, a lot of I know that there were pacers and crew there, but anyhow, um, there's funny stories that you'll last, you'll laugh for years or cringe. Um, when you hear your run your pacers say this is runnable, that's an inside joke. But basically before the race and during training camp last year when I ran, um I asked my pacers to just remind me when we're on sections that are runnable and that I can run this. And like at training camp, that's what I focused on. I'm like, every climb that I can run, I'm gonna have a store in my memory, like you are capable of running this. So then when we got to the race and we get to a section and I'm walking, Jesse would just say over and over how that it's runnable. And by then I'm like, no, it's not. Yeah, it was runnable a month ago when I did this at training camp, but right this moment, not today. So now this runnable joke because I don't know how many times she said the word runnable. Um, but anyhow, um tell the pacer to use their best mom voice when directing the runner to eat and drink. Um, so that's a good, uh, good tip. Uh Tyler said that Jim Wamsley would tell you not to let your pacers eat burritos so they don't risk having to take a bathroom break midsection and miss being able to help navigate you successfully. So no burritos, I suppose. Um, and one thing that I also noticed as a runner, but they mentioned about Dunkin' Aid Station because it's a very compact area, there's not a lot of space, and you know, you got to park and walk in. They impl the aid station implemented a system that there's an area for you to crew your runner, but you can't come into that area until they have spotted your runner up the trail. And then they have a volunteer there with a radio, they're gonna call in and say, Bib so-and-so is coming, and then they let their crew into there, which I think is just fantastic, like a great system to make sure that the crew for the folks that are actually coming in can get to their runner and then move out of the way for the others that are coming in. So if you have crew going to Duncan, know that that is the system and that they will call you into the crewing uh area once that your runner is coming. Um let's see, the eight stations early in the race, like Duncan, Robinson, Dusty, can feel crowded, just be patient. Um, as crews, we're all out there with the same mission to help our runners. So just be kind and work together and be safe. Um, have a confident driver like Todd. Todd is my husband and apparently drove them on the really windy mountain roads and um, you know, making sure you eat, of course, and drink. But um, and then Kim mentions about on Sunday waiting for the awards ceremony. If you don't leave and come back like I didn't since I finished in the golden hour, it gets pretty hot. So find some shade, continue to hydrate, maybe take a nap in the grass like I did, along with Jen and Jesse. But um, basically the moral of that was keep continue to take care of yourself after the race is over. Um, let's see. Oh, this one is a good one for the crew from Tyler. Program the GPS coordinates for the aid stations and parking areas into your phone before you. lose service. So like in Palisades the day before or something. Yeah, get those GPS coordinates that are on, they're on our website and program those in because you will lose service. Once you're at Duncan, Dusty, Robinson, and you're not able to communicate with the other crew either, by the way. But program those GPS coordinates in there so you get and download them offline so you can use your phone when you you when you lose service because it will happen for sure. So those were their main, I think there was one other advice. What was it? Oh, talking about the river crossing, uh Tyler did the river crossing with me. He the year he ran was they went over by boat. They in raft. So he actually had not done the river crossing on the rope walking across. So he was with me. He started in Force Hill, did the river crossing with me and he um it says that it was awesome but also swift and deeper than you might imagine. And I completely agree with that. That river crossing was harder than I expected. And um yeah it was deeper like giant rocks but the volunteers are incredible. They help you get across they're just strung out all the way across the rope to help you. And then they've also got some lights like some glow sticks in the water that kind of show you where to put your foot because they've already identified step here, step here. Um and it was more just like strenuous than I expected. So just heads up on that. And then because it can and the river um depth is different at different times of the day based on like when the dam had been open and so forth. So you may need to put your phone up to a higher pocket. Cause in some cases I think it was I was chest high when I came through. So just knowing that and always thanking volunteers um and I think that was the gist of um yeah remind your runner to treat themselves like they would a friend. Many times we could be so hard on ourselves when we wouldn't be that way with others, which is understandable um give them five to 10 minutes to weather whatever low they're going through then make a plan to improve what the problem or situation is. So fantastic advice from my team I had Kim Tyler who like I said he ran in 2023 and she crewed him and then my husband it was his first time at Western States Jen and Chris they had been to Western States as volunteers but never as career runners and then Jesse who it was her first time there and they all crushed it. And they were all my crew for my qualifier at Long Haul the prior year in Florida. So we all know each other pretty well which helps it helps a lot when you're going through something really hard um and we did have quite a few lows to to get through um so thank you Carrie's crew for providing all that great insight um on that note before we kind of just jump into crew rules John you've ran western states a few times tell us how many times you've run western states and what has your crewing and pacing situation been like over the years that you ran it.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Yeah yeah so I I finished the race 11 times um you know I got my thousand mile buckle in 2012 and then ran it again in 2021 um and um you know it the the crew uh for the most part the the foundational pillars of my crew are my wife Jill my daughters Annie and Katie and then a bunch of friends you know over the years um you know but that they have been the constants those three have been the constants throughout um and you know Jill is the best uh crew chief you're ever gonna find she she's handled everything she's seen me through really dark times and really happy times along along the the run and and um like the best types of crew chief she's always um doesn't panic you know and is always keeps her wits about her and always has great solutions and you know my daughters Annie and Katie you know their their roles have evolved over time you know when I first ran the race in 1997 Annie was eight years old and Katie was five years old um they're now in their 30s both of them um and they became you know they they were kind of as kids you do the best you can but eventually they evolved into really key crew members and then pacers you know um in 2012 and again 2021 um you know and it's the last few times leading up to 2012 uh Annie and Katie were were my primary pacers out there as well and um you know not not to be um wearing wearing my parental goggles on this but I really truly believe they are highly intelligent um and savvy ultra runners themselves you know both annie and katy have finished Western states themselves katy's finished it twice annie's finished the race once and so that they know they know they know they they know the trail they know all this all the stuff that happens along the way and they're they're they're there to to help out no no matter what happens and you know that was for for me honestly carry in 2012 that was really what made the experience so special it was not only my 10th but it was the fact that my daughters who were little girls originally and it's funny you know with the with the equipment that you you bring along to think about like how that evolved where like on our on our in our front yard when we get back from western states initially it was a bunch of bikes and toys and stuff in addition to all my you know running stuff that was that completely would take up our our minivan how that evolved from from that to you know where um my daughters would kind of like become my brain out there for me and tell me I needed this that or the other thing it was it was a pretty special thing to to to to to share that with with the entire family and Annie and Katie in particular and to just to think about the the passage of time and how they'd gone from from little girls riding their bikes and doing stuff like that during the race um to out there helping me um and and I've helped them too you know I I I've I paced and and helped them when when they finished their races too so um and um I I as as your crew really I think really poignantly and importantly shared the the the most important thing I think more than anything else you know there's the tactics and all the stuff that comes into it but it's sort of like the spirit of of of of of of your crew and what they share with you and and what you what you what you take with with you you know as as you're experiencing that that's super important you know um always always I always try to be positive my crew is always super positive with me. I I don't think there's there have been that many cross moments over the years. It's all been about you know helping one another and I think you know what you shared um a moment ago from all of your great people is that's that's what I think all crew should should and runners should try to aspire to be is just you know being in this singular moment where you're working together understanding that you love each other and that you know the payoff is going to come at the end when when you all know you've contributed to to getting to the track and getting to the finish.

SPEAKER_02 51:38

Absolutely I have a picture from the finish that one of our photographers took and it was the home stretch of the strap uh track and my crew is surrounding me and the looks on all like I zoom into every one of their faces and it looks like they're finishing a hundred mile race and it just warms my heart so much to see how much pride um uh they had by me finishing because they knew that they all had a part in that and it was really really special so I was crying um I cried a lot from the start line during the race and then the whole way around the track.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

But idiot yeah to see the looks on their faces of just sheer joy and pride was just an like that shot yeah is priceless.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Yeah one thing I wanted they say that that's my runner and that's exactly what you're experiencing that you were their runner.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

Absolutely you were talking about Jill your wife being just like the the best crew chief. Now some people think that your spouse or a parent should not be your crew because they it when times get tough when not if because we all know it's gonna get tough and you're on the struggle bus your spouse or your parents may be like you should probably stop or you know like they don't want to see you suffering or in pain like has it ever been that way with Jill or is she just seasoned enough to know that this is just the way it is and we're getting you back out there.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

Yeah you know I I think I think for the most part she she she is she sees a lot more strength in me than I see in myself, you know, which is um I think one of the reasons why we've been together for 40 years. But you know and especially in those moments in in these ultras where you you as a runner you just think you're done. And I think the loved ones once they put aside their sort of concern, they they understand that you possess that strength and they'll help bring that out in you or remind you of it. And that's that's really has been Jill's gift to me. And I'll I'll be honest Carrie especially over the you know the past several years as I've gotten older and I've had to face injuries and all sorts of challenges um and I've gone out and I've I've continued to want to be a part of the sport and to run hundred mile races. And if not for Jill like saying no you got to keep going you can't stop you know I wouldn't have been able to make it um but I you know it's totally understandable if a loved one gets gets really really concerned you know one of my duties at Forest Hill is to to cut off the the wristband of the the runners who choose to to to to not go on any further at that point. And you know I I can tell you some of the most moving conversations I've had have been with the runner but more you know poignantly with their spouse um whether the the spouse is or their partner is like you know they they want they want their runner to go on and the runner doesn't or the the partner or spouse is like I don't want I don't want them to go on you know I'm really really worried I want to I want to be able to have breakfast with them tomorrow and not have to visit them in the hospital type of thing. And you know weighing that you know because I I always try to be a motivator and a cheerleader at Forrest Hill and it and again our as I mentioned earlier our focus is to make sure everybody continues on. But sometimes you have to kind of put that bravado and confidence aside and look that look that runner in the eye and look their spouse or partner in the eye and say you know what this is it. This is the the journey ends here and I get it. You know and and I usually I'll I'll I'll I'll cut the cut the wristband off and give them a hug and tell them that the the decision they've made it it's not a reflection of you as a as a person or you know lack of strength or fortitude or anything. Really it's a reflection of how much this person standing here loves you and how much you love them and you want to continue on to have that you know um I'm glad you mentioned that John because we talk a lot about the crew like getting you through it and your pacers getting you through it and keep pushing them, get them to Auburn but there are limitations to that.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

And we certainly would rather you call it short, call your day early than end up in the hospital or something worse. So um sometimes that does just happen. So knowing when that is either as the runner or your crew or pacers knowing when you've had enough or something has happened that you guys didn't expect. So that that part is important as well.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

You know not to say that you know I I I you know the finish rate is so high these days but I would highly encourage any of our runners if if if if they face that on race day, you know, to to so you not only have that conversation with your crew, your partner and all that stuff, but bring in that aid station captain there who, you know, all of our aid station captains are are highly experienced and empathetic individuals. And you know have them be part of that conversation too. I mean and let them give their perspective and their advice about it too. So it it it doesn't necessarily take you off the hook about it, but at least you have another set of eyes that's outside of your your pacer crew cocoon to can maybe give you a fresh perspective on things.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

That is great advice Sean. Yes I love that yeah and maybe yeah maybe you're dealing with something that they've never seen but you've seen it 25 times like well this is what we need to do for this or yeah you're done here. But great advice um I think we will roll into because we're just about at an hour and we will talk about some of the official crew rules which are on our website and also on Thursday of race week we have a crew meeting that is our it is more attended more attended well attended most attended a lot of people show up lots of people show up for this um session of the week. So we have a lot of people that come because we have so much good information. Myself and Todd Larson our A station coordinator leads this talk it's at the events center at Palisade so just walking distance from the village there. So we welcome and encourage anybody who's crewing and even running like it's it's really beneficial for runners as well to come to that in person and we will go through lots of information and we will also have time for questions. And at that time we will also hand out our program uh so at Western States we have a printed that you can hold in your hands program that all the runners will receive it Friday in their race packet but we also give out to each of the crews on Thursday at the crew briefing and it has lots of great information. It's not just informational but it also has a lot of history it has uh articles about our trail work it has articles about specific runners that are running this year. John Yu wrote most of those articles and they're all really beautiful so it's just a really special thing that we do at Western States is provide this program. So anyhow you'll get a program and it's going to have stuff at about eight stations as well. So it's a great resource during the race to have in your crew vehicle and then a great souvenir. I have several cop several copies on my coffee table. You wrote a beautiful article about me in last year's program that I cherish and my my article happens to be right next to Emily Hoggard's so I have mine open to that page it just sits face up on my coffee table because it's such a great memory to look down and see Emily and I side by side in the program. We're probably the one and only time her and I are in the same magazine. So crew briefing on Thursday come to that it's at 230 last usually a little over an hour and then right after that you can shoot over and go to the free trail prediction show. And then on Thursday evening there's usually a little fun thing they do in the village. But anyhow our race agenda is on the website as well. So crew rules we'll go through these I won't read everything verbatim since most people have probably already read them all, but just hitting some of the highlights but making sure of course that you're only going to aid stations where crew are allowed. If you show up at an aid station where crew isn't allowed you there's going to be several issues that could arise one is getting your runner disqualified of course we'd never ever want to do that but um please just don't do it just go to the that's Lion Ridge, Red Star, Miller's defeat, last chance, double's thumb, El Dorado Creek, all the Cal Street aid stations, so Gardinell's Peach Stone, Fords Bar, the far side of the river, ALT and Quarry Road. So no crews at those aid stations um all the rest have our aid station access for crews and several of those you will have to take a shuttle. So just baking in time for that knowing you're gonna have to park, get on a shuttle bus or van, and get driven to the aid station. Most of the drives are pretty short within a couple miles. You know, we obviously drive slow but they're not long shuttle rides. But just baking in time to do that and being really patient, thanking our volunteers it's really a tough job to park vehicles and load shuttles all day and all night um maybe bring them a treat or something give them a some chocolate or candy or I don't know a baked good from one of the cafes in Forest Hill. Anyhow thank the volunteers and know that they've been out there for hours and they're just trying to do the best they can to get you to your runner. So making sure you know which aid stations those are and how to get to them again downloading GPS ahead of time and knowing that it's going to take a few hours driving time. When you are at those aid stations just know that there is a distance from the aid station that you're allowed to crew and with the exception of Forrest Hill and Rogue Point that's 200 yards. So if you have an aid station then 200 yards basically and you know before and after your the crew is allowed to set up and you're that crewing needs to take place in one spot. So you don't have 400 yards that you're crewing your runner that you pick a spot and that's and you attend to your runner in that one spot. I just say that because there's been some interpretation I feel like that we've really dialed in the language since then but that there was some crewing on the go happening um with cooling your runner the entire time or putting a cooling vest on them at the beginning of the station and taking it off. So none of that one spot that you crew and um the the exception to that Forest Hill which is where you all will see John Trent but at the top of Aft Road which is down Forest Hill Road um you can start there. So you can pick a cruise section there. You can have the pacer start there as well and then you have all the way until the they make the turn onto California Street. So that's a pretty long stretch then it'll make sense when you get there but you can set up your cruise section anywhere along that again it's just one spot that you pick, but you just have a a longer area to choose from your pacer though can start before the aid station um like my I Tyler started with me basically at the top of Bath Road. And one of the new rules that if you've never been to West Mercedes this isn't going to make any sense or make any difference to you but if you have been here years ago before last year used to crews would go down Bath Road and walk up with their runner that long paved climb up to Forest Hill. But we don't allow that anymore we didn't have any issues with it last year. I don't expect it to be any issues John you have some fantastic volunteer that was out there last year. I specifically remember talking to them when I came up and as I made the turn then Tyler was waiting for me. So anyhow no going down Bath Road that's for Pacers crew anybody media nobody's allowed down there. And then um leaving Forest Hill like I said just before the Cow Street turn and then the other exception is Roby Point. So that's the last aid station with a little over a mile to go to the finish. You're gonna park at the finish line and walk backwards to get to Roby Point and then you can run in with your runner from there and your entire crew can can do that. So you'll see big groups of people coming down the street from Roby Point to the finish. There's no parking there so make sure that you do that on foot. And like I said all the details of which eight stations have shuttles, which ones are going to have a walk it's all on the website. It will also be in the program we will also talk about it in the crew briefing. So we really want you to be prepared and know what to expect before you get there because it's going to make your experience better as a crew it's going to benefit your runner and it's going to make the experience better for our volunteers which we want that also. For the river just one note of that that you can crew and change a pacer at near side so that's before you cross the river. But on the other side no cruiser pacers allowed on the immediate far side of the river they will be at Green Gate which is a two mile hike up from the river. So just want to note about that. And a note about dogs don't don't bring your dogs to western states. I Love dogs. And so it's not about whether we like dogs or not. It's not a safe environment for dogs. It's very hot. There's many times a dog would have to be left in a car, or there's just huge crowds of people. And I've heard an unfortunate story years ago about someone whose dog died at Western States because of the heat. And it's really hard to take care of your dog while you're taking care of a runner, other crew yourself. So please just don't bring your dog. Leave them with a sitter or at home. Uh it's too hot and it's too crowded and conditions are not great for dogs. So no dogs, no bicycles. You can bike to get to crew accessible. I don't see really many people doing that. So I just want to reiterate if bikes are allowed to ride your bike to eight stations. You can't ride your bike on the trail. So if you're a pacer, you're pacing on foot. I feel like that's probably common sense, but just want to state that one of those rules that no biking, no littering, no smoking. Um, make sure you follow the speed limit. Please don't block any residences. This would be relevant at Forest Hill, at Greengate Parking, which is Slagermine Road, which is a residential area. Just be respectful and know that not everyone around you is cares about Western states or is involved in the race. And they're just, it's a regular Saturday or Sunday for them. So please just know, be aware of your surroundings and don't park in front of people's houses or businesses and always follow the instructions of the volunteers. Um that are the main points of crewing and then pacing. Like we said, pacing starts at Forest Hill. One exception to that is if you get to Michigan Bluff after 8 p.m., you your pacer can start there. Everybody else, if you get there before 8 p.m., your pacer starts in Forest Hill, and you have a few options for changing pacers. It's gonna be the river on the near side, Green Gate, Pointed Rocks, Roby Point. Um, I did Forest Hill, Green Gate, Pointed Rocks. So I had three pacers. Um so anyhow, so make sure that you know who's gonna be where and all that jazz. Um pacer bibs, every pacer is required to wear a bib, and those pacer bibs are coincide with your bib number. So you will pick your pacers, will pick those up in Olympic Valley at Pacer Central. There'll be a tent there with a sign. You sign a waiver, you get your pacer bib. Now, if your pacers didn't plan on coming to Olympic Valley, they could pick them up with your team at Forest Hill, John, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:47

That's right. Well, at Pacer Central and Forest Hill, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:50

Awesome. So do a lot of do a lot of pacers do that? Do they pick it up there?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:54

Yeah, they do. And it's interesting, I think it was either last year, might have been the year before, might have been both. We'd forgotten to get all the Pacer Central stuff in in Palisades and eventually, you know, um got got the stuff in route to Forest Hill. But the race was already going on, so we created our own waiver and we create we were ready to have like, you know, uh bib numbers written on pieces of paper with with uh with the pins and everything ready to get. But thankfully, we got everything there in time where it did, but we had to kind of like, we were kind of we're like, why the heck did we forget to get all the stuff in Palisades? Gosh darn it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:34

Yeah. And it just, you know, that's the point of that is that even though you've done that for years and years and years, and you know that pacer bids are picked up there, but yeah, there's so much going on that sometimes even things that you've been doing for years that you forget, so many moving parts, but um you I'm sure you guys will remember this year. It'll be fine. But so you could pick up at Olympic Valley before the race or at Forest Hill from the aid station team there. So they will need a bib um uh for the duration of any any of your pacers running. Um pacers need to be 18 years of age or older. They um they can accept aid at aid stations. And at aid stations, they are allowed to help fill your water bottle, get you supplies, um, but they cannot run ahead um and get into the aid station before you to start that process early. They need to be with you coming in and with you going out. Um, and then between aid stations, there can't be any assistance that we, you know, it's called muling, and that's carrying the bottles for you and handing it back and forth or carrying your nutrition for you. So no muling, that's pretty standard uh pacer practice. And um let's see, and then the exceptions to the number of pacers we kind of already talked about, but bathroad and forest hill and then roby to the finish line, you can have more than one person accompanying you. And then, of course, no littering for our pacers as well. But look at our website, it says pacer rules if you need any clarification on that. Uh anything else with pacers or crew, John Trent. That's the end of my notes on that. I have a couple other things to mention, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:26

Yeah, yeah, you care. You did a great job of of uh recapping that. And I I I, you know, I there's there's peep people, whether whether they realize it or not, they s sometimes will try to seek out a gray area when there are rules involved. And it's just not a good idea to to reside in the in this sort of gray area where you think like, well, you know, it doesn't look like anybody else is around here, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of bend this, a bend this rule a little bit. There's a there's a good reason why these these rules are in place. And it's not just about, you know, the the competitive aspect of the race. Some of this has to do with with safety and race flow and operations and other things that that really, you know, the runner and the the pacers and the crews may not think about, but that's that sort of heartbeat that's kind of running underneath the surface. And, you know, if you get in the gray area a little bit, it disrupts that race flow and the race operations and the race heartbeat a bit. So just don't go there and you know, it then it becomes a pretty simple equation.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:32

Thank you for saying all that, John. 100% yes. We don't have any rules that are arbitrary, they're all there for a reason, and maybe they aren't clear to you because you don't know all the ins and outs, but they are there for a reason. So please just respect the rules in the race, and it's gonna be smoother for everyone. Uh a couple notes, um, an email went out yesterday from Craig to all the racers and those on the wait list. Um, couple reminders of filling out the general interest form on the portal. And that we also have a pacer matchup on that as well. So if you were either hoping to have a pacer and you don't have one, or you're somebody that wants to pace and don't have a runner, go onto our portal and register there, look for pacers there, look for runners there. If you are racing this year, fill out the general interest form. We use that and you will be glad that you did. We use it in two ways. One, when you are finishing on the track at Auburn, whether it's Tropical John or whoever's announcing at the time that you finish, they will use what you put in there to talk about you. And it's pretty fantastic to hear your name and whatever it is that you put in there. Maybe you put the names of all your crew so they all hear their name as well. So fill that out so that we have something to say about you when you're finishing. And then also we use that during the live broadcast. So, you know, Dylan, Corinne, and our other commentators are gonna pull that up during the race, especially after top 10 men and women have finished. They need to talk about everyone else. And they're gonna use that general interest form to um to tell those stories. So please fill out that form. We do use it. You're gonna be glad that we have something to talk about. All right. And then the other thing I wanted to remind folks, and this also went out in the email yesterday, was we are still recruiting for our medical research projects. So there's three different projects that you could be a part of. Again, that went out in the email yesterday. Yesterday's email was quite long. It's longer than usual. Please read through it all. There are three flyers, informational flyers about our research projects in there. And if you're interested in participating in any of those, it tells you what the criteria are, what uh requirements for participating, and has QR code to scan to get the information of how to contact our researchers. But medical research is one of the pillars of our organization and is really important to us and increasing the knowledge base of Ultra Running. So we would love it if we could get some more participation in those research projects. Other than that, Craig talked about the course a little bit. Of course, no snow, so we're not worried about that. River crossing is going to be by rope this year. So he mentioned that in yesterday's email. So no boats again this year. And uh we talked about sustainability efforts and what we can all do to cut down on waste. So keep that in mind as you're packing and pre, you know, what what do we call it? Like pre-unwrapping things like not bringing a bunch of garbage to the race and using terracycle bins at the race and things of that sort. So read through that. Lots of good points and reminders and so forth in that email. And also a chance to win a new running pack. One of our new sponsor, USui, uh, a pack sponsor, they are co-branding a running vest, and it is fantastic. I ran in it, it wasn't co-branded. I'm kind of jealous because I don't have one of those, but it has the Western, the ones they're giving away has the Western States logo on it. But I did run in their new running pack at training camp weekend, and it was great. But that went out yesterday, too. If you're running the race, you can enter to win. I think they're giving away 10 of those. So, anyhow, read the email, and there'll be one more email that goes out to runners and waitlists the week of the race with any last minute details, changes, and so forth. Anything else, John? Did we get it all?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:59

You did, Carrie. That was that was that was really great. You know, as as as the race gets closer, you know, it just I always get nostalgic and think about, you know, um, you know, my past experiences with with it. And I maybe this is helpful and maybe not, but I remember really distinctly 1997, as I mentioned earlier, that was the first time I ever ran the race. And here in Reno, we we have a little bit of an advantage over everybody else. We live pretty close to the to the race. And a tri a tradition has been to, you know, a group of runners from you know our area, maybe up in Truckee as well, kind of get together and people drive over from Auburn and you run from Palisades to Robinson Flat a couple of weeks before the race. It's very helpful if you've never been to that. Yeah, yeah. So if you if you've never been to High Country, um it really helps you to get a feel for, you know, how wild um really the high country section is. And I I I distinctly remember in '97 that, you know, I was running the race for the first time, went over with a group of people that was led by one of my mentors, a guy by the name of Joe Brandenburg, who was a really, really strong runner from Reno here. And it was just, you know, the day started out kind of foggy and cold or whatever, and eventually the sun came out. And I remember we were near Cougar Rock, and it was just jaw-droppingly beautiful. I'd never been up there before, and looking out and seeing that spot that had been photographed so many times over the years, and there I was, and I was just kind of like my mouth was hanging open. Just, you know, it was it was very moving and emotional to see all this for the first time. And I remember my friend Joe, he came up to me and he said, you know, John, remember two weeks from now, when you're out here again, remember to do that. Remember to take a moment, to take many moments and just take this all in. You know, don't get so in a hurry and so caught up with the race that you don't remember the experience. And um, I I I tried to remember that, you know, a couple of weeks later when we ran the race or whatever. And I've always tried to do that ever since then, whenever I've been out on the course. Um, and I've always counseled the runners that I know who are running the race to do that, to, to, to remember that it's it's it's a race, but it's also an experience and to experience it deeply. Take those moments if you can to look around and just be so thankful because I'll always remember that moment of standing out cougar rock for the very first time and just thinking, wow, I'm part of this. I'm actually part of this. And I've never I and it was it was glorious. It was something that it was it was even better than I I could have imagined it being. So just, you know, as as people get closer over the next few weeks, remember it's about the experience more than anything else.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:55

Yeah, I love ending on that note. And for the most of us, there's no paycheck, there's no sponsorship waiting for us at the finish. So, you know, I love that, and it's funny, Todd. My husband just recently asked, like, why is it called the Western States Endurance Run and not that Western State's endurance race? And I think that that right there is exactly what you're talking about, that this is a a run, this is an adventure, a journey, one that a lot of people only do one time. So, yes, take it all in. You know, we do have a clock that we have to get in by to be an official finisher, absolutely. So we gotta, but otherwise, yeah, don't get caught up so much that you're racing that you lose sight of enjoying those moments, you know, and the high country is so incredibly beautiful. And um, so that's a good note to end on. Except I am gonna mention you did remind me to talk about trail work when you're talking about the high country. And I do want to mention that that we have, I think it's seven more. They're doing a big trail work day today, as you know, John Trent, because your wife and daughter are out there helping. Thank you, Jill and Katie, and everybody else that's out there. But we have seven more opportunities the weekend before the race is a big camp out weekend. We camp out at Robinson Flat and have crews that deploy in different directions those two days. And you don't have to sign up for both days. You can just come for one or the other. And then we have the six Granite Chief wilderness weekends over the summer that could hopefully, if all things go well, will be the last year of this giant reroute project. And it's gonna change the route of western states and the high country. So if you'd like to join our trail crews and join us at any of those work days, go onto our website and sign up. We'd love to have you. And um, yeah, remember what John said about making sure you're taking it all in when you're up there and all along the entire course. Thanks for joining me, John Trent and the Spirit of Western States and another episode, probably the last one we'll do before the race because we're both so busy. I mean, maybe, well, I don't know. I keep having this vision that we'll record a podcast in person together at Palisades. Maybe, yeah, maybe we can sneak in a 30-minute episode, but maybe not. So we we this could be it. And then what we will for sure have a recap episode soon after the race and talk about everything that we experienced and um about the race and and any any memories we have from it.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:30

Yeah, yeah, for sure, Carrie. And appreciate riding shotgun with you on this. You know, it's it's it's it's it's always a lot of fun. And again, you know, I I I can't thank you enough for all the stuff that you that that you do um involve that's involved with Western states, you know. I mean, in in the in the in the in the time that you've been in involved with our race, our race keeps getting better every year be because of your involvement. And that's no exaggeration. And you're gonna like deflect this and talk about like you know, no one person is bigger than this, that, or the other thing. But you do so much for uh for so many aspects of the race, and you do it so well. Um it's it's you you make us all look great and you make the race look great, and you're you're a wonderful emblem of of what the race is all about and the person you are. So you know, can't thank you enough for just being who you are and what you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:24

Thank you for saying that, John. And yes, I have a lot of great mentors helping lead the way like yourself. And on that note, thank you all for joining us for another episode of The Spirit of Western States, and we'll see you soon in Olympic Valley.