High Grading: Why Your Best Bucks Never Reach Their Potential & How To Address It

Why can't you grow big bucks on your property? High grading might be the problem and you may not even know you're doing it! Selective buck harvesting is necessary when managing for age structure and trophy potential, but it opens the door to high-grading. Dr. Bronson Strickland, Bonner Powell, and Moriah Boggess explain why antler-based harvest rules often backfire. Thankfully, they also give some simple strategies to minimize high-grading while pursuing a blend of hunter satisfaction and trophy management goals for your property.

Transcript

Introduction

Moriah Boggess 0:01

Welcome to Wildlife Investments, where we discuss wildlife research, habitat, hunting, and land management with our panel of leading resource managers. Wildlife Investments. Do you feel like your property hasn't reached its full buck antler potential? High grading might be holding back the quality of bucks on your property. Today we're going to discuss high grading, describe what it is, how it happens, how you can avoid it, and how you can live with it. Today we've got three of us. We got Dr. Bronson Strickland, our resident deer researcher management expert. Bronson, you ready to talk high grading?

Dr. Bronson Strickland 0:46

Uh, this is one of my favorite topics. It is so impactful. So I think this is just really worthwhile and useful information. So I'm ready.

Moriah Boggess 0:55

We've we've got an extra tall soapbox for you today.

Dr. Bronson Strickland 0:59

I'll get on it.

Moriah Boggess 1:01

And then we got Bonner Powell, one of our resident uh habitat management deer turkey experts. Bonner, high grading. I'm excited. Let's let's get after it. Same. And I'm Mariah Boggus, one of our uh another one of our deer management habitat consultants, and we're ready to jump into it. I think just to get the ball rolling, we must jump into what antler distribution looks like in the average population. And let's just use like central Mississippi, for instance, for scores.

What IS High Grading?

Dr. Bronson Strickland 1:34

Okay, so what what a lot of people in in my opinion and experience fail to realize is that all old deer aren't big or large antlered. There's absolutely a relationship with antler size and age when you look at the population average. But when you look at the individuals that comprise that age class, it follows a distribution and you know, a statistician, which we're not, but they would call that a normal distribution or what a lot of people say a bell-shaped curve. And that just simply means that most of your observations or individuals in this case are clustered around or centered around the average. And there are, when you deviate from the average, either positively or negatively, or better or worse, then there's going to be less and less individuals. And so the two tails of the bell-shaped curve, basically, in this case, when we're talking about antler size, means there's very few individuals that are extremely large. There's very few individuals that are extremely small. Most of them are around the mean or the average, or the top of the bell and the bell-shaped curve. What that means is depending on the age class and depending on where you are in the US, there's going to be a different average per age class. And where we're at in Mississippi, it even varies from region to region within our state. And so we can go from the southern third of the state, the lower coastal plain, and the peak of that curve or the average may be about 117, 118 to 120. You get into most of Mississippi, it's going to be about 125, 126, 127. You get to our ag region or our delta region, and it can be 135, 36, 37. So that is controlling for age. That would be the average of the mature buck age class in those regions. And as we've probably talked about before, this is all just a function of food. Lots of food on the landscape over time, and those populations have different antler size averages based on that. Now, the problem that we see other than or alongside with deer density impacting nutritional availability, I would say as significant of a problem that a lot of people miss and underestimate is the problem with high grading. And it is chronic, it is widespread, it is occurring most everywhere. But because it's normal, because it is so common, people don't understand that it's going on. And high grading simply means that's that's a forestry term. Kind of a forestry context is like a logger comes in and takes the best and leaves the rest, meaning they come in and harvest the most valuable timber and leave the lowest quality. And then you come back to that stand five, 10, 15 years later, and you're left with a bunch of big trees, but they're all of very, very low value. And someone that is an expert in that region and forestry can go, they can look at the species composition form of the trees, et cetera, and go, oh, this stand was high graded. That there's nothing of really high value left. And that is exactly what happens when you know what you're looking for with a buck population. And I can spot it, Steve Demaris can spot it. Anybody that learns what they're looking for can almost spot it instantaneously when you look at harvest data. And the way you spot it is that when you look at the average antler size of the bucks that are harvested over time, and that essentially peaks at three years of age. We all know antler size does not peak at three years of age, but what that means is the very best bucks, the bucks with the highest scoring antlers, are harvested at three, and then what's left over grows to four. And they're not much bigger, even though they're a year older. They had smaller antlers when they were three, and so they they maybe get a little bit bigger, but then the best ones there at four are harvested, and then what's left over at maturity is people say, Why can't we grow big bucks here? All of our mature bucks, we can't get a buck score over 120 inches at five years of age. That is symptomatic of a high grade of deer herd. And it happens over and over and over again.

The Antler Growth Curve

The Broken Stick Effect

Moriah Boggess 6:47

So we shared that antler growth curve recently on our social media, and we'll probably, again in the future, of a buck progressing through the age classes. And I know uh you and I were texting the other day about that. That data, you know, some of that data came from um known age deer, some in enclosures, watching this deer age through the year, some was free-range data. And just to go through those for everyone listening and who haven't seen that curve, it's like 25% of their total antler score as a yearling, close to 60% as a two-year-old, close to 80% as a three-year-old, right around 90% as a four-year-old, mid-90s as a five-year-old, and they top out around six and a half. And I know we maybe that's a good discussion for a different day, but there can be obviously variation even how a buck goes through that growth curve. If they were born late, if they had an issue, um, you know, they were catching up as a yearling body, body mass-wise, or they had an injury, there's a host of things that can throw them off. But that the I guess the the steepness, what you're saying is the steepness of that curve, the slope, and the progression of that curve gets dampened severely in high-graded herds, where you're not seeing those age, those age groups jump quite so much in antler size.

Dr. Bronson Strickland 8:11

Yeah, it it if you're thinking how to read a graph is is everybody has seen the antler growth curve, and and it shoots up, you know, very steeply, and then it just starts smoothing out, meaning the rate of increase gets less and less from three to four to five. And then finally it kind of levels out at five, six, seven. What we see with an obviously high graded herd is it shoots up to three and a half, and then basically it's like a broken stick. Instead of having this smooth curve, it slopes over and flattens out at about three years of age, and that is just instantaneous high grading.

Why Antler-Based Rules Cause High Grading

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah, and and I think it's important to just speak to for a moment, just like kind of what causes high grading. I know I I've seen it a lot in the past in clubs uh where they use, they have antler restrictions as opposed to aging deer, you know, either prior to season with cameras or aging deer on the hoof, you know, they're more interested in, hey, what's the total antler score of this deer? And yes, you can kill it or no, you can't kill it when it reaches, you know, let's say 125 or 130 inches worth of antler. Uh, you know, the I've seen that in the past at least, that very much promotes high grading because the first thing you're gonna see is a 130-inch three-year-old, and he's gonna get it.

Moriah Boggess 9:42

Yeah. Absolutely. And he's at an age where he's very susceptible to harvest, sporting good size antlers.

Dr. Bronson Strickland 9:51

Yeah. Um, and the good good point, Bonner, with that. That that may be the most common criterion right now is a boon and crockett score, but it it does not make a flip what it is. If it is an antler-based size dimension criterion where you are not considering age, it will absolutely result in high grading. There is no way around it simply because you may set the bar really high and say nothing under 130 inches or nothing under 140 inches. Um, there are going to be some exceptional young deer that make that. And it doesn't matter if it's an eight-point rule, a six-point rule, you know, whatever it is, there's always going to be some superstar young bucks that meet that criterion and they get killed.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

It would be like comparing me to Mike Tyson at 13 years old. You know, I, you know, I wasn't a slouch, you know, as a 13-year-old, but I I guarantee you I couldn't have held my own against Mike Tyson.

Moriah Boggess 10:58

There's a lot I would have got the pass as well, Bonner. Don't worry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

There uh there's just some some real physical specimens in the world.

The Inverse Problem: Stacking Inferior Bucks

Dr. Bronson Strickland 11:07

Uh well, here's the flip side to that, too. So let's say you're real ambitious and we we're not gonna allow anything to be harvested under, you know, let's say extreme trophy management type situation. It's got to be 150 inches or better. Well, that's real good in that uh all the bucks that you harvest will be over 150 inches, you're gonna miss some opportunities because some of those exceptional deer, uh, if you're in a region that can do it, you will have some three-year-olds that that score 150, and that could have been your 180, or that could have been your 190 at six years of age. Here's the flip side of that too, the inefficiency of it. You're gonna accumulate a whole bunch of bucks that are never gonna get anywhere close to 150 inches, and you're gonna keep stacking and stacking and stacking those bucks in your population, leading to food limitation. Now it's not on the dough side of the herd. Now you're doing it on the buck side of the herd too. And they weigh twice as much as dough, generally, not always, but so they're eating twice as much. So you got a you got a lot of food you're allocating to bucks that are never going to get killed.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Yeah, and also just a ton of, you know, five, six, seven, eight-year-old seven points, six points, you know, that just hang around for a long, long time. I've seen a lot of that going on uh with a lot of clubs, you know, and that's exactly the inverse of higher grading.

Comparing Harvest Rule Types

Moriah Boggess 12:42

I I um I was thinking just now the the different kinds of rules, and maybe we can just kind of touch through these real quick that people use to try to regulate buck harvest, and we've talked a little bit about age and antler-based stuff. And the antler-based criteria are always the ones that are most popular and common because they're the easiest to police, you know, quite honestly. If you tell your, if you have a guest come and hunt and they and you tell them, hey, don't shoot anything unless it's five and a half, well, how much confidence can you have? And if they do make a mistake, how accountable are they? And I that's something I know I've had that conversation a lot with landowners. I'm sure you guys have too. And it really presents a dilemma for a landowner trying to make a rule that can be followed. And I think this is where, you know, we have to kind of talk through here the importance of some kind of age-based criteria, whether that is very selective, like we use in our strategic program, where we're looking at a buck at different ages, we're looking at how much of his potential he's likely displaying, if he has potential to be extra large, shooting some early, saving the very best for late. And then there's other people who maybe they don't want to get into all that and maybe they can't handle telling three-year-olds from four-year-olds. I think if most people could get to that point, they would be far better off than the antler-based criteria. Because, like we you guys were just saying there, having bucks that are into maturity will never be susceptible to harvest. Yeah, a 150-inch rule will do that. A 20-inch, or not 20-inch, that'd be kind of crazy, but uh, you know, a 16-inch width rule. I've seen some really stellar adult buck or mature bucks that never get wide. They're just really tight. They'd be 14 inches wide, straight up out. Yeah. Or um, or the points rule, you know, it's gotta have so many points. I think that's I think a lot of people are probably starting to shy away from that, but that was the old standby. You know, back in the day, eight-point or fit in a bucket, you know, type type.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Yeah, that was the first thing that came to mind was the 10-point rule, you know, uh preserve all the 10 points. Uh, but you know, a lot of a lot of people have gone away from that now. That's kind of a somewhat of a thing of the past.

Moriah Boggess 15:12

And and even, you know, properties we work with, I know we've all had this conversation, the the um, the value, the amount of value that sometimes is given to a 10-point frame versus an eight-point frame, and how not all 10-point frames are created equal. I know we've all seen Bucks at four and a half or even three and a half is a 10-point that we'd say just get rid of him. He's not gonna ever be anything special. And standing next to him is an eight-point. And so it that has far more potential for for antler score for because of his frame, because of his time length or whatnot. And so having those sort of criteria that are really that essentially the easier it is to follow that criteria, the worse it probably is for your buck population and causing high grading.

Points, Spread, and Mass: What Predicts Age?

Camera Surveys and Hit Lists

Dr. Bronson Strickland 16:00

Yeah. Well, um, when you look, and you know, we've done this countless times, a lot, a lot of people have, uh, but you try to find of a what what's the most reliable indicator? Is there an antler characteristic that is the most reliable indicator of age? And Bonner, like you alluded to, the the easiest thing is points. Um, and that has the worst correlation with age, is the number of points. So unfortunately, the easiest thing to count has the worst correlation. The thing, here's the reverse. The thing that has the best correlation is one of the uh hardest things to precisely count, and that's mass. And so you're you're just rarely gonna get a two-year-old buck with six-inch bases. I mean, it it just takes years to to accumulate that kind of mass. But it's hard to make a snap decision on is that a four-inch base or a six-inch base? Um so what a lot of people will do as well is all right, I'm gonna hedge my bets on he's high scoring but very narrow, or he's really wide, you know, and so you you you gotta meet uh two criteria. X X amount of points and spread, or X amount of points and beam, or spread and beam. And if you can check off two of those, you increase the likelihood that you're making a good decision. But even then, there there are always exceptions. And so what we're always trying to do, whether we're doing it and helping a hunting club or just general education, as soon as you get to a point where you can age on the hoof, your your buck management program is going to go to the next level.

The Sensitivity of High Grading

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Yeah. And I and I will say, I mean, even for me sometimes, some of the some of the rules that that different clubs use and and even some of the aging on the hoof, you know, depending on time of time of year and everything else, can be very difficult. You know, for example, you can't shoot anything unless it's five and a half, unless it has less than seven points, uh, and then you can shoot it no matter how old it is, you know, or you can shoot them if they're sub, you know, 130 and they're plus six years old, you know, they're getting ancient. Uh, and that's that's one thing that I've seen that that that people that aren't biologists are really, really good at. They can tell you uh what a very, very young deer looks like, and they could tell you what a very, very old deer looks like. Like if I if we put up a picture of an eight-year-old deer, almost every person that hunts would look at that and be like, that's that's an old buck. That is an old buck. I'd be like, yeah, you're right. But what gets really, really hairy is that four and five-year-old, uh, especially, you know, the in-between there. Uh, I mean, that even gets hairy for us sometimes, you know, when we're aging. Uh, and one of the things that I've seen that's just helped clubs immensely is just kind of our our camera surveys that we do for folks uh with the hit list that we produce, just saying, like, hey, uh, you know, this is what we think, this is how old we estimate that this deer is, uh, based on body characteristics, uh, not antler characteristics, but based on body characteristics. Uh, and then just being able to have that as a resource, especially if you have guests where it's something you can send over a PDF to their phone or give them a little booklet and say, hey, look, if you see one of these bucks on the harvest list, man, get him, you know. And if not, you know, we just ask that you pass that pass those deer. Uh, that's something that, you know, we do for a lot of properties that helps immensely.

Moriah Boggess 19:41

Yeah. Creates accountability. Yeah. That's that's so important. You know, one thing about the high grading issue that I think is so unique is when we talk about habitat management or deer population size or Any of the many downfalls or limitations on a lot of properties, if you're 90% of the way there or you mess up once in a while, you don't quite hit your goals, you don't get that stand burn, whatever, you can still have stellar habitat, a great hunting property, you know. But when it comes to high grading and making harvest decisions, honestly, the small what might seem like the smallest mistake. Oh, we only misharvested one deer this year, two deer this year. That was the deer. If that deer that your cousin, you let Hunt come and hunt, and he got a wild hare, and Jimmy went in there and he shot that 140-inch, 145-inch three-year-old, well, that was your future 170. I mean, make no bones about it. That that's how that's how sensitive this is. And I think that's why. Yeah, that that's him. That's him. And if you mess it up, then it's, you know, you gotta wait a couple years for that deer to come another deer.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

It's hard to breathe life back into them. That's for sure. Yeah.

Dr. Bronson Strickland 21:11

Yeah, I I try to um I I guess make make people aware of how important it is. And and the the number here would be related to property size, of course. How big is the deer population and so forth. But generally speaking, on your your average property, it it's literally uh success or failure is gonna be on about three bucks. Now, if you're on a really, really big, you know, you're a big 10,000 acre property, that might be five or six. But that is literally success or failure, are those hypersensitive two or three deer that consistently get killed. And you got to be thoughtful about this as well, is those two and three-year-olds that are superstars, they're very visible, they get everybody's interest. They're also relatively easy to kill compared to a five or six-year-old. So the the probability of them getting killed when everybody's looking for it, and then especially you get to the rut, you just may as well, unless you proactively go out and teach everyone and make them aware, it's going to get killed. You can pretty much count on it. And so what what we've tried to tell people with all the excitement, like from photos, and people are passing it around, and here's this trophy, and that's all defined on where you're at, this 150, 60, 70, 80, and everybody's looking for that buck and they want to kill it. Of course they do. We want to create uh an awareness of here are two, three, four, five bucks that the hunting club and even the neighbors, even share it with the neighbors. This is just important, as important of a harvest, but it's harvest restraint. We got to make sure everybody's on the same page that we got to protect these and that everybody is gonna be better off. I mean, you know, for thousands of acres all around you, if everybody got on the same page and protected the best bucks, difference between success and failure. And it's only a couple deer. That that's the sensitivity of it. It's just a couple deer.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Yeah. And what I what I've seen working with clubs in the past is like uh many times, you know, the older age class bucks that are, you know, topped out at 115 inches, they're ignored, they're kind of, you know, I don't, I wouldn't say, you know, not valued, but they're just kind of that that's not what people are after. Uh and when you when you I've seen success when you start to exclude some very, very high quality younger bucks, if you'll say like, hey, also at the same time, we need you to take out these older age class bucks that are uh inferior to what you got, lower quality, that really helps to kind of offset each other. I mean, it's not going to be a 150-inch buck, but it's a mature buck to hunt. It's something to chase. You can pick you one out that you want to go harvest, like a wide six or something that has a lot of character. And I've seen a lot of guys be really, really happy with small deer that were a fun hunt, uh, fun to chase, uh, and it kind of gives them something to do while they're holding off on that three-year-old.

Dr. Bronson Strickland 24:37

Yeah. You know, I was just thinking about something too. It's um in the South, we would think of this as club rules versus state rules. But the state rules you get in the Midwest could be a little bit different. But this would be like the club rules in the South would be well, Bonner, I hear you, man. Yeah. That that big old six-year-old five-pointer, I hear you. I'm not wasting the one buck I can kill because of our club rules on that. I'm gonna hold out for a trophy. In the South, that doesn't hold water because you can you can amend your club rule to say anybody, we want everybody to shoot those, and that doesn't take away from your one, you know, trophy deer every year. But Mariah, in the Midwest, what about in uh one buck states?

Moriah Boggess 25:25

Yeah, you're you're severely limited. And uh I don't want to speak for you know all Midwestern states because I know a couple of them at least have DMAP. But even dough harvest uh, you know, facilitated through DMAP isn't available nearly uh as widespread in the Midwest as it is in the South. And so some of those issues that we're able to get around, like hey, you know, you mentioned you've mentioned previously before, Bonner, you know, having somebody on a club who's willing to shoot a lot of does, that's a very high valuable, high-value hunter. In the South, we use them. We say, hey man, here's here's a bunch of Dmap tags, you know, go get them. Got them loose. But you can't do that in a lot of Midwestern states. And so in those states, yeah, you really have to rely on getting more hunters on that property to to take those deer, you know, and uh kind of, I guess more so the old-fashioned way of like you just gotta invite your buddies and say, hey, this this big buck might be off limits. I'm chasing him, but here's, you know, you can shoot any one of these management bucks that um, you know, that would be your buck for the year for the state, obviously, but that's what you're able to hunt on this place. That's the only option, really.

Dr. Bronson Strickland 26:44

So what about this? What's your reply to this? Oh, this sounds good, you know, man, this sounds really sophisticated, but dad gummit. I mean, I got into hunting and I just want to have fun. I I don't want to have to go through cardiac arrest every time I'm raising a scope to shoot a deer. I just want to have fun and it be more laid back. Well, Shaw's response to that.

Moriah Boggess 27:09

I've got I've got two options for that person. Uh well, first off, first off, I would say objectives, like define your objectives and and if you truly just want to be able to shoot anything, there's there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If it's your property and you make that decision, and that might be one option. The other option I'd say is just get good at being able to age to at least four and a half or so on the hoof. And if you feel somewhat confident that that looks like a mature buck body-wise, you can make those decisions and be right 90% of the time.

unknown 27:41

Yeah.

When Club Members Have Conflicting Goals

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Yeah. For somebody that, you know, trophy quality doesn't matter to as much. They want to have fun. They want their kids to have fun. Uh, they want to go every weekend and see deer and just really have a good time. Uh I think they need to know about the trade-offs, but I say absolutely, you know, and I I would agree, Mariah, you know, being able to confidently age a three-year-old buck, a four-year-old buck, you know, once you get a a buck in the southeast, at least to three and a half, four and a half years old, if you don't have trophy quality in mind, you know, absolutely have fun. Spend time with your family and your friends. Uh and I mean, that's fantastic. I mean, that's what we started preaching, you know. I mean, I guess that's close to 50 years ago now, really, as quality deer management was three and a half years old old and older, you know. Uh so if somebody says that to me, I'm like, absolutely, go ahead, have a great time. I love it.

Dr. Bronson Strickland 28:45

Just to recognize the consequence of that. That that that's what where we get in a buy and you get frustrated is people wanting cake and eat it too. You can't. I want to see a bunch of deer. I want to shoot every buck I see, and why am I not killing trophies? Well, something's got to give here in your strategy. And that that's one thing we do that I'm so grateful we started doing is uh with properties that we manage, is we give them a confidential and anonymous survey before we start working with them. And so we tease apart some of these questions, you know, what is success for you? And and the data come back pretty clear that there are is always, and that this would be a larger property. This would not be a property with three hunters. We're talking about 30 hunters, 40 or more. Is there will be a non-trivial amount of people that say, I don't care about that. I'm here to have fun. I want to see deer, take kids, friends, whatever. We do want to shoot a bunch of deer. That's okay. And then you'll get the other extreme, and they are there to produce and harvest trophies. So now what do you do when you have these two populations in the club? Well, somebody's got to give. Or we're gonna have to meet in the middle, and both sides are gonna have to give up a little. And this is extreme, but hey, here's one of the answers. The the people who are the minority, if you really feel strongly about this, you might need to find you a new club. Just go hunt somewhere else and be happy. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Yep. Birds of a feather flock together, you know, get in with people that kind of fit what you want to do, your hunting style, that kind of deal. Uh, but but also, you know, we run into that a good bit, and and that is where it gets hairy on, you know, management recommendations, you know, uh, with those numbers of people that just really just want to have fun. They're like, I'm spending this money, I want to have fun, spend time with my buddies and my kids. You know, that I that's what I hear more than anything. Uh, I want to get my wife in the stand a few times a year, or you know, uh that kind of deal. Uh and then you do have the absolutely hardcore guys that just they're there for one thing and one thing only, and that it's really tough to manage for both. Uh, like you say, you kind of have to meet in the middle on clubs like that.

The Progression of the Hunter

Dr. Bronson Strickland 31:19

Yeah, and and it d w in situations like that, it's like everybody's satisfaction is diminished a little. The the only way you can make that better is starting a new club and saying, this is the way we're going to do it. Make no bones about it. If you want to do it another way, you don't need to become a member of this club. Yeah. And then you'll get more like-minded people that way.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Absolutely. But I also think like these a lot of clubs, they're uh it's it's not always the club. Sometimes it's the progression of the hunter. You know, a lot of the guys that we talk to now that are like, I want to take my grandkids hunting, I want to do this, I want to do that. Well, 20 years ago, they were the guy that was trophy or nothing, you know. And I think there is a uh you know a progression for hunters as as you kind of age and go through different stages, you know, maybe you don't ever change, but but I see a lot of times uh there's a progression of the hunter and they're what they value and what they would like changes over time. Yeah.

Is Every Eastern Population High Graded?

Moriah Boggess 32:35

No doubt about it. So I got a statement, and I wonder how this hits both of you guys, but I'm I'm pretty much convinced anymore that pretty much every single wild population in the eastern U.S. is high graded. Any disagreement?

Dr. Bronson Strickland 33:02

Or really, really big private property. Um but yeah, in your general property in the eastern U.S., I would say so. Um I think there's variation and severity of that depending on hunter density, deer population, hunter density. But yes, I I I do not disagree.

Moriah Boggess 33:27

I would think that hunter density is probably, yeah, pretty directly correlated with with high grading, if you could quantify it. Um Yeah, I I mean I feel like it's it's sort of a it's it's a byproduct of any kind of selective harvest. In other words, if we all just went to the woods and just shot the always shot the first buck we saw, and and we still weren't shooting so many that they weren't progressing through to maturity. In other words, we had a truly random buck harvest, then statistically we shouldn't have high grading. But the fact that we we bring in our own biases because we're making assessments, and no matter how long you've been aging deer, you have to be cognizant constantly to not let the antler size or other covariance, other things that might make you age that deer older or younger for whatever reason. You can't let those sway your judgment. And but they do like that that obviously happens. When your heart's pumping and that buck is walking in and you're having to make a harvest decision, you're probably gonna be a little bit more likely to think he's older if he's got big antlers. Because if you mess up or if you underage him and let him walk by, you're gonna kick yourself, right? That's the logic, that's how you would justify it in the moment. And so anyway, where where I'm going with that is I I think we all probably hunt pretty high-graded populations. And yeah, I agree that I think there's probably some exceptions, but even on the best properties, if we could truly know, I wonder, I bet there's still some high grading going on.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Yeah, and state state law plays a little bit of role of a role in that. I I think under density is big, uh, but also, you know, kind of liberalization of bag limits, like Mississippi's, you know, one buck of choice on private land, you know, plus a few others depending on what unit you're in. So, I mean, you can kind of do whatever you want in Mississippi, uh, but that's just, you know, an example, uh, at least for the Southeast. Uh, just where, you know, if you can kill four bucks a year, three, four bucks a year, depending on what state you're in, you know, it's real easy to to put a put a whooping on them. Like you say, those that are easier to see as well.

Growing Up in High-Graded Country

Dr. Bronson Strickland 35:52

Um not to get too sciencey here, but I'll I I will say this. Get science-y on us. Um and I I'm gonna put some uh some pressure on our the the new deer lab, uh Jacob Dykes and and Eric Mitchell. Uh I'm gonna hand off this. I I've talked to them about the idea, but this seems to get published uh with some additional data. But so I I'm really lucky that I went to school in in South Texas, and uh so I have access to a lot of ranch data for colleagues down there. And and so I got curious uh about this. And so I I was doing another analysis where I was looking at within Mississippi from region to region, does the ratio of antler weight mass does it vary by region relative to body size? So as we said earlier, we know that antler size varies by region, but does the ratio of antler size to body weight change? And kind of ecologically getting into that, kind of the the hypothesis was if you have more food and you can invest more in antlers, do they? Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So so deer are bigger or smaller from region to region. Are are the antlers, is the is the ratio of antlers to body the same? Absolutely, they're bigger, but is the ratio the same? So I was like, uh, well, I wonder how it compares to South Texas. And so I went through and analyzed the data. Again, it's just making antler size relative to body size. And when I plotted those graphs, they they're right on top of each other. In other words, they have the same ratio of antlers, antler production relative to body size, until three years of age. And at three years of age, you know, if you don't understand that you're looking at harvest data, you go, you would go, well, dang, that is really interesting. It just so happens in Mississippi, when bucks get bigger, they allocate less to antlers than they do in South Texas. But the real story is those data sets from those big South Texas ranches, they're not high graded. They're only harvesting the best of the best, and they're harvesting those at six or seven or eight. And in Mississippi, the best of the best start to get harvested some at two, but usually at three. And so it just makes it look like biologically you're dealing with a, you know, a dip different antler growth type relationship, and it's not. It it's it's just getting back to Mariah, like you were saying, how widespread this is, is that this happens over and over, and for a long time, the best bucks get killed, usually two years too early.

Moriah Boggess 39:03

Yeah. I I can think of, I mean, growing up in North Carolina, um, and I'm sure this is true for a lot of areas that are like this, is small land holdings, heavily hunted, not many bucks get old. But golly, every buck that got old, you know, and I say old, not even, four and a half, they would be like 115-inch deer. And, you know, at the time it was like, man, we just don't grow big, big deer. But in in retrospect, understanding what I do now and and looking back on it and even looking back through some of those photos, those larger antler deer were there. Now, they wouldn't have rivaled Mississippi Delta deer, but they were there as two year olds. We had some really good two year olds. But those deer, in that level of harvest or that intensity of harvest, the odds of them making it through were probably so low I would have had to be there for. For a long time. And then that would have been the buck everybody talked about, you know. And I in in in that situation, that buck might not be all that rare, uh genetically all that rare, I should say. But on the landscape, he just doesn't make it to five.

Dr. Bronson Strickland 40:19

Yeah, I I I have participated in the high grading process. As have I. I have got a great example I use in uh in seminars of a buck I was, you know, different time, I was 16 or 17 years old, and I shot a very much above average buck. It was probably a, I don't remember a buck would have scored in the high 120s, low 130s, something like that. And this was before pulling the jawbone out, but just looking at photos of its body size or so forth, uh, uh it would have been three and a half at the oldest. And it was a great buck. Got a good picture on the tailgate, hold that buck up. But but when when I went through and calculated what it would have been at maturity, I mean that that could have easily been a 160. But I shot him at 128, 132, you know, whatever it was. So so I'm not holier than thou here. I have I have done it too. But we just weren't, you know, that wasn't a time where we were even thinking about managing for for the buck population. It was just you take what you can get. You see a good one, you shoot. And most properties aren't like that now. I just think they underestimate that that's still going on to some degree. And there are so few bucks that are gonna end up being that 150, 160, 170 and above that even if you don't realize you're doing it, you're doing it. Unless you're extremely careful.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Speaking of that, those are those are some of the the best the best stories or or the stories that really snap your attention uh is talking to some older biologists that, you know, have gone into club meetings. The club's been berating them, you know, we want 150-inch deer, we want 160-inch deer. And then, you know, you can go through a list of harvest data and with antler projections, you can be like, uh, well, Jeff Smith, you killed a boon and crockett deer this year, you know, and Billy Davis, and you just keep going down, you know, you killed a boon and crockett deer, and everybody's kind of looking around. You just killed him two years too early. You know, when you look at those projections and those deer end up being 160, 170-inch deer, that'll turn your stomach. It's it's it hurts. It does.

Dr. Bronson Strickland 42:57

It hurts.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

But they're great stories. I love hearing them.

Dr. Bronson Strickland 43:00

Oh, yeah. But but it it explains it very well how the phenomenon works. Yeah.

Practical Takeaways for Landowners

Moriah Boggess 43:08

Well, so as far as wrapping all this up, I'm sitting here thinking for the average landowner, a couple takeaways in my eyes, and I want you guys to add to this, is just that there's obviously a whole there's several different levels they can look at regulating buck harvest if they even want to at all on their property. And so we talked about obviously the very best being an age-based, and then um antler potential combined with age-based, even be even better than that if you're if you're wanting to be strategic about buck harvest. But maybe more realistically for most people is simply just age-based. Picking a threshold that, you know, uh an age three, four, five, um, three being on the low end, or a lot better if you can get them to four, and even best if you can get them to five or six. And if you can age those deer, just make the decision that way. And then obviously the the easiest one to implement is those antler, antler points, antler uh criteria. And that's usually just how I present the landowners is like, hey, you know, you're gonna leave something on the table with all of these approaches. The the best of the best, what you leave on the table is simplicity in your hunting. So there's good and bad in all of it, and you just sort of have to pick which one's best for you, and it has everything to do with what you're willing to give up and what what you want to get out of that.

Dr. Bronson Strickland 44:31

Uh I'm I'm obviously programmed different, but when I think of all the different combinations of beam, spread, points, and I'm I'm sitting there thinking, okay, uh, a buck walks out, your typical hunters running through the scenario. What do I think the beam length is? What's the spread, number of points, green light, red light? I think, man, wouldn't it just be easier if when that buck stepped out, you know, pretty sure that's a three-year-old. Need to let it walk. Or, yep, that is obviously a mature buck. So I'm gonna harvest it regardless because it's a mature buck. So some of that is all the gymnastics and calculations you have to do on the spot when it's just antler uh regulation stuff, antler criteria. The other way of looking at that is just kind of training yourself, and and you can do it with camera data. Like, well, how can I learn to do this? Well, we have YouTube now. We have lots of different books, lots, lots of different sources that are accessible to everybody. QDMA, NDA, they've got a great guide to help you get going. But then a lot of it too can just be your camera data and then the bucks that are harvested on your property or adjacent property, and then working with a biologist. Here was the photo of this buck, here's the mandible, the biologist aged it at three and a half. What do I see? What can I learn from that? And it it's not that hard once you just set your mind to trying to learn. It's not that hard.

Moriah Boggess 46:11

I love that approach of of cross-checking. That's something that I you know I do every year just as we get into aging season now. It's it's early fall. Looking back at bucks from last year and those that were harvested and looking at jawbone ages. It's a great way.

The Buck That Fooled Everyone

Outro

Dr. Bronson Strickland 46:29

And there will be some that fool you. I mean, I I there's one I'm thinking in in particular, Mariah. Fool I don't yeah. No, it fooled you. It didn't fool me. Fools you last. Yeah. There was one that did just did not follow the script in in in terms of what it would look like. And I I believe it was a a buck harvested and we got the jawbone back, and it was a fully, fully mature buck. And on the hoof via photos, it didn't look a day over three. But though those things happen.

Moriah Boggess 47:06

Yeah. He was getting some plastic surgery or something. Yeah. He was looking real young. He had the good getting injections. All right. Well, if we don't have anything more to add to it, we'll go ahead and shut it down. See people here next time. Thanks for listening to the Wildlife Investments Podcast. For more information on these topics or to see some of the projects our team is working on, follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Wildlife Investments or visit wildlifeinvestments.com.