Sound Thinking with Cadence Hira

Hooktheory co-founder Ryan sits down with composer, sound designer, and YouTube creator ‪@CadenceHira‬ to talk about how we hear music theory. They dive into Cadence’s beginnings arranging Zelda tunes by ear, her journey from Berklee to YouTube, and how the pandemic reshaped her creative path. Together they unpack her “ears-first” philosophy, video game scoring, and her idea of Relative Axis Interchange—a modern way to understand harmony beyond traditional rules.

They also explore why theory is “kind of all right, I suppose,” the beauty of constraints in composition, and how to keep learning music theory fun, accessible, and endlessly inspiring.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Today I'm talking with Cadence Hira, whose music theory videos I've followed and admired for a really long time now. If you are like me and watch music theory videos on YouTube, maybe you've come across her channel. In my view, she really strikes the perfect balance between depth and complexity and accessibility. And I consider her to be one of the sharpest minds kind of in modern music theory right now. So in this conversation, we'll get into why learning music theory is really just about kind of naming things that we already feel. As Cadence puts it, it's retrospective analysis in a way. We also talk about some weird chord progressions, how to teach theory so it actually sticks, and what it is about harmony that makes it so addictive for all of us. In addition to being, you know, a content creator on YouTube, um, Cadence is really a fantastic composer. And um, if you enjoy this conversation, I'd really encourage you to check out her SoundCloud, where she posts a lot of um tracks for video game music that she's composed over the years. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. Here's Cadence Hera. Cadence Hera, thank thanks so much for for coming on and sitting down to chat with us. Um first I wanted to congratulate you. I saw that your channel um uh recently got 100,000 subscribers. That's yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah, I think uh like last week or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you. Yeah, so I mean I've I've been a fan of your channel for for some time now. And um, yeah, so it's no no surprise to me. But um yeah, I I just think one of the things that like I really love about your content and your videos is just like how obviously passionate you are about music and music theory. And I was just wondering if you could just share a little bit about um, you know, your music background and and how you got into this crazy world of making music theory videos.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Yeah, for sure. Um my parents have like a piano in their in their house. Um and I didn't really take like formal piano lessons or like any formal um like uh I I took like the music, um it's like the word for it, like the block music or something. It's the like you I all everyone takes it in like fourth grade for like violin and like all the other stuff. Um but really I think like up until then I just like kind of noodled around the piano and just like stuff I heard on um like TV or like in video games. So I would love to just like try to just like noodle around and see if I can just play the melody and stuff like that. Um and I think that's like a really huge, like very formative part of my whole music experience is like I just really liked figuring out like melodies, um, even like very, very basic chords too, of um just like things that I would play or like wash and stuff. Then uh that kind of translated to like when I started learning like um like violin in like block music, um, I would like spend most of my time practicing, like not doing what they asked me to do, like with the, you know, um like Suzuki type stuff. Uh I would just play like a bunch of like random Mario Reselta stuff and they'd get mad at me for like not coming in and like playing the actual stuff. I like did not practice any of it. Um but I mean that's kind of like I guess like the the start of all of it. And um that turned into like I would do some like string quartet arrangements um and just like very like basic like piano arrangements and I had no idea like what I was doing, it's like unplayable stuff and stuff like that. But um kind of just like that just kept going and um I would end up just like you know doing a lot more string quartet stuff and like I would arrange things for um like string orchestra type um or like full symphony type stuff I would do in like high school and stuff like that, and I would occasionally get to play that with the the high school, but um that's pretty much kind of like the gist of it. I kind of just went through like the whole orchestra pipeline throughout high school and then just like kind of started to expand a little bit more into like the jazz type stuff and marching band, um, just for fun, kind of just to see all the other things. So uh pretty pretty classical background, I suppose. And then like the backing of all the other like video game stuff, I guess, as well.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Out of curiosity, what did you what did you play in marching band?

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Um like what what instrument?

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Or yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

I wasn't the pit. I did pretty much like all the all the pit stuff. Um mostly kind of like Marimba, I guess, near the end of it, but um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Yeah, that's fascinating. So you uh yeah, so you start on violin, but then you are like really into, you know, kind of poking around and playing songs that maybe you enjoy. Do you think that um you know for I d is there like some sort of piece of music that you remember kind of like just really loving and deciding like, oh, I just gotta like figure out how that works? I'm curious if that if that like is is how like your your music theory journey kind of was sparked.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Ooh, that's a good question. Um definitely like a lot of Zelda stuff. I remember like I um I don't remember if like VG Lee Cheese was a thing, but I remember like looking up like she music and there wasn't really like a lot of that kind of stuff. Um like muscle wasn't really a thing back then. Um so I was just like, shoot, like I gotta like like bang out all these Zelda tunes and like, you know, like write them out on like pen and paper. A lot of those kinds of things, I guess. Like a lot of like the really simple, like, you know, the like ocarina of time type things I remember was like really, really a lot of my my my practicing and figuring out stuff was like that kind of stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Yeah, no, it's so funny because you know, back then this is kind of pre where you could like go onto YouTube and just play something on repeat to to figure it out. Um so yeah, I I remember having exactly the same experience, like going to like a certain like level or something and trying to figure out on the piano. Yeah, yeah. I have like one embarrassing, I think one of one of the pieces of music that I was really drawn to as a as a child was this like panting pro V like commercial. It was like a shampoo ad. And they had just like the catchiest like hook, and I just had to like I every time that that commercial came on, I'd like random my piano and and and try to bang it out.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Yeah. Um that's how it happens, just like random, just like the most random thing that just really just like catches your your ear.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

I definitely have stuff like that and just not remembering at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Yeah, that's that's great. Okay, so you um so you you do orchestra, you do band, and then you decide to go to school in music.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Uh yeah, so um kind of around like the end of my high school stuff, I was getting really into like, you know, like aphy music theory and like, you know, writing and stuff. I did like a lot of arrangements and like kind of want to start like composition. So um yeah, I went to uh Berkeley for film scoring, um, like kind of video game scoring minor type stuff as well. Um that's kind of what I was thinking of doing, kind of like more long term, is like, you know, um the very like graduate and then work for some composer or something and you know, do the whole um like work in that kind of studio. Um yeah, and um that's kind of what I was thinking and like I graduated and I started doing like the very like freelance, um, like take on, you know, like game jams and you know work for these like some other game studios. And it was really fun. And I I do still really enjoy that kind of stuff. Um and then the pandemic hit and like all the things that I kind of had going on, like I I lost a few gigs that like, you know, they just were like, hey, like um I was doing like jingle writing as kind of something that like I don't really talk too much about because it like doesn't really come up. But like um I had um like clients like lined up for like oh, you know, we're like the whole scoring package type stuff. And they're like, hey, we're closing for the pandemic. So like these are all these are done, like we're not doing this anymore. And I was like, shoot, what do I do? Um and then you know, I went into I was like, I'll just start making random videos. I don't have anything better to do. So um yeah, and then you know, that was kind of the start of all that.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

That's how that's how it started. Now I I'm curious, when when you make your videos, is it are they were they originally were they intended to be in instructional, or was it more just that you just heard something, you're like, you know what? Like I have something to say about this, like and I'm interested, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a video about this.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Kind of kind of somewhere in between. I think um I I definitely had a lot of like just like random ideas of things that I like I I just like talk to my like in real life like friends about, just like, oh, you know, like this thing does this thing. And then they're like, okay, like enough, no more. I'm like, maybe it's just we'll make a video so I don't have to just keep bothering them. Um so there there's a lot of that. And then there's also just like um I um I I kind of just wanted to make like, you know, like I guess resources that I would have wanted to have um have seen like in my education. Um things that are like you know, hopefully a little bit entertaining, a little bit funny, uh, but also hopefully like, you know, insightful and provide some like cool, I guess mostly just like the same music theory curriculum you would get in like college or something, but with things that are like more modern and you know, things that people enjoy. So kind of somewhere, somewhere between both, you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, absolutely. Um I think, you know, uh at Hook Theory, we we kind of tapped into a little bit of that that same vibe. You know, it's yeah, for sure. When when I was losing learning music theory, it was you know, I mean, I I studied classical piano, but it a lot of people the the criticism of music theory the way that it's taught is that it it can be like a little dry and it can apply to music that maybe you're not that interested in. And I just love how you've you were able to take, you know, compositional techniques and music theory concepts that are very applicable and it kind of demonstrate them with you know music that you really love. I think that's and I think that, you know, when a a lot of your viewers that that watch your your videos, you know, I I think can sense that you just have this like this genuine joy about uh talking about these concepts that you're coming across. And I think that's that's one of the reasons that um that they're so effective.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah, for sure. Thank you. I mean, I think it's kind of um I I have like this whole like manifesto about music theory, but I think like it's really only um like effective, I guess, like to like to teach music theory if you're teaching like really as like up-to-date as possible. I think there's like chord progressions that are like really common now that like aren't common 50 years ago and things like that, right? And I think there's like if you're trying to teach, you know, like practically speaking, unless you're, you know, like is teaching like counterpoint and stuff, like practical music theory I think has to be like super, super modern. So um it's stuff that I mean, I really like hook theories, like, you know, has all of the super modern stuff and the curriculum is very modern. Um I I think that's how it should be, you know. It's like it's it's comprehensive.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yeah. And you know, you were you were telling me earlier that um that now that you're also kind of you that you teach music theory um privately. I'm kind of curious the uh among your students, um who who comes wanting to learn about music theory? It do you have, you know, people that are fairly advanced that need just help with workshopping some pieces, or do you have people that are more beginner also that that understand that they really need music theory but just haven't gotten around to doing it? Um what do your students look like?

SPEAKER_01 10:36

It's it's definitely a pretty broad range. There's um definitely quite a few beginners who like know like very, very basic stuff, um like like scales and stuff like that, and they want to kind of understand like, you know, how do how do these things work and like you know, why does this um do that, which is great. And I love to see that kind of like curiosity, and I think it's like that's like the really, really important thing that it's hard to like teach that. Um and there's also like really advanced like students who um like they're like, oh, I have like a jazz degree from like 20 years ago, and you know, I just like I want to see like what's what's happening these days, you know, like what's like you know, how do how do you take a look at like these, you know, more advanced um like jazz and like non-jazz, like more modern, you know, like animation type stuff. Um like why do these things work? And like talking about the more like you know, advanced type theory. Um and that's of course always, you know, super fun as well. Um pretty, pretty broad range. I would say probably mostly um kind of on like the more beginner intermediate end is what I've um experienced with my students coming in.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Um you know, uh in addition to your your videos being like super informative, I think that one thing that a lot of your viewers would agree on is that the videos are like super entertaining. And I love that you have your you have this long running, I don't want to call it gag, but it's um basically after your your intro, you you put up um music theory is kind of all right, I suppose. I just and uh I just love that. I feel like that um that really taps into uh and I don't know how you feel about this, but I I feel like there's a broad consensus among people who have like amateur musicians that music theory is kind of like a medicine that you need to take, but like it's very hard to swallow sometimes. Um and I feel like this kind of gets at that a little bit. Um I don't know if you if you could talk a little bit about where that where that started and where I came from.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

I I I think it's kind of um I have like a very like flippant view of of music theory. I think um, and I guess maybe like music in general. Um I don't know, I guess also part of my like insane manifesto, because I think it's it's like it's very like the curriculum is very, very like stuffy and it's like so serious, right? Um and I I I don't know, I guess it's like you know, kind of I look back on it, I'm like, oh god, I have to keep the gag going. But I'm like, maybe if I made this today, I would kind of make it a little bit different. Um, but it's uh yeah, I I was kind of just hoping that like I would put that there and it would be like, oh, you know, it's like so funny, so flippant. Um and and hopefully that's kind of the goal. It's like, you know, it's learn learn some concepts that are like that are fun and like help with your understanding of music, but it's not like, you know, it's not it's not a science. It's you know, music theory is like like not even history. It's it's like social studies, right? It's just, you know, here's how here's what you expect. And uh like, you know, you can choose to subvert this rule, you know. You don't have to not use parallel fifths or use parallel fifths for this, you know, but this is kind of what's expected. Um that's kind of the goal of, you know, it's one of those like insane things that I did in 2020 and I was like losing my mind.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

No, I I I think that's that's I I love the way that you you put that. Um because I I think, you know, that, you know, music theory isn't an exact science, and that oftentimes we're making observations about it. And I think that that's one of the reasons why so many people have so many different takes um on music theory. Um and I I do want to get to your manifesto in a little bit because I a as a um as a music theory geek myself, I I I love um I really love your angle on it in in a lot of ways. Um I I think it's um it's it's music theory in general is the type of thing that, you know, it you could study it forever. Like it's it could go on for for infinity. And um I think um, and we'll get to this in a second, but there's this point in one of your videos where um I I I hope I'm not misrepresenting this, but you basically like ask rhetorically the question about, you know, we have this construct for understanding the way that theory works, but like if our ears can't follow the same logic kind of implicitly when we're listening to the music, then does the construct really even make sense? Um and I think to me that just like really resonated because, you know, ultimately when we're enjoying music, we're not like thinking all the time. Well, some of us are, but like not everybody's thinking, like, ah yes, like what is the function of this exact chord at this exact time in this, in this progression? Um, but somehow our our our brains like decide like we love this music or you know, for you know, and and we may not even know the reasons. And so I I love that um that some of the things that you talk about, uh you you force them to be grounded in some kind of, you know, are the fact that our ears need to follow these ideas too. I I just wanted to ask one more question about your videos that I know some of your viewers are uh were curious about, which is that I think uh well one of the things that I really love uh about watching your videos is that you have like, in addition to the music theory, you always have like really interesting things going on in the background. I'm just kind of curious where that started. So sometimes you're Pokemon battling, sometimes you're like geo guessing, sometimes you're playing poker. Um is that just kind of a fun way to kill some dead time, or is it where did that start?

SPEAKER_01 15:50

So it's it's kind of uh like two different things. It's like one is that I don't I just didn't really want to show my face. And I'm like, damn, what do I what do I do in place of that? Like just have like an empty like screen. Um so I mean I'm just like it's kind of a combination of that and also like um hopefully not like too too transparent. But like my kind of my like intended demographic is kind of like the younger people, and it's like you know, very like like subway surfers, family guy clips, like you know, I think um it's it's it's it's like the very like like like TikTok age of like you can get all this like you know, hopefully educational information and like you know, good narration, but you can also like keep 20% of your attention on like hopefully my my entertaining um like bad gameplay of like you know, I'm playing like Cuphead and like dying every three seconds. But whatever.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

No, it's it's it's really great. Um Thank you, thank you. So I I do want to get to your your a little bit of your manifesto, but before uh before I do, I just wanted to talk a little bit about video game music because you know uh this is something that um that that is is kind of ubiquitous uh in in many of your videos. And I was just curious, um, you know, why you think video game music is such like a rich source for for these concepts?

SPEAKER_01 17:07

That's a good question. Like it is as a whole, um I guess compared to other things, um, I guess it's hard to say. I guess it's um maybe just like precedent, perhaps. I think it's like video games, I think, have like a very diverse um kind of like I guess like origins of like different, you know, like tropes. And there's probably a better word for it. Because like conventions, I guess, right? Um I've been recently doing kind of like a these like this little series on like environments, stuff like that, right? And it's I think it's like very easy to point to like very like seminal works in like, you know, this is like the quintessential kind of like water, you know, level that influence other things. I think there's like so many of those kinds of things. And it's like, you know, things in Japan, things like here. Um there's, you know, like video games made in like, you know, of course, other like many other places, right? And I think it's like really easy to kind of like have so much um just like a blend of all those different kinds of like, you know, cultures and different like conventions that have like a bunch of like really crazy things that just keep kind of feeding into each other. Um I was recently talking to someone about like there's um I I say it's like a very like Japanese kind of sound of like the um like this one chord progression that like, oh, you know, it's like the like the canon type stuff. Anime canon or yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and it's like, you know, um that kind of stuff. Like I find like, you know, it's like you hear it so much in like the older Mario stuff, right? And like the older um just like anything really, like all of them, kind of like that kind of thing. Um and um just like you read these like firsthand accounts of like people who are composing for um whatever maybe, just like you know, here in the West. Um they're like, oh, this is like super inspired by like this one track that I heard in like um whatever, like Kingdom Hearts or in in um like Final Fantasy. And it's like so cool to see like the cultures blending and stuff like that. Um I'm sure of course that exists in like many other mediums, but that's something that like at least just anecdotally, I feel like I've seen happen so much more um just from like video games, I guess. Um just more personal, I guess. People like you know, you play these games and like you know, it it really sticks with you more like controlling these characters and these, you know, worlds than just like watching something, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yeah, absolutely. I kind of have a theory about this. I'm curious what you think. You know, when like the first game systems came out, they were so limited in in terms of like horsepower because you know, the like for instance, like the original like Nintendo, all of all of the tunes needed to be sequenced because you only had like five sound channels. I'm wondering if like the constraint of the hardware forced composers at the time to be more innovative within the framework that they had. Like, for instance, did it force them to create more rich harmonic ideas because they weren't able to create like the the craziest like sound effects that we that we can do now? Because I just I'm thinking back to like my childhood playing, you know, s some of these, these, these like regular Nintendo games, and some of those tunes are just so memorable. I don't I don't know what you think about that.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Yeah, I mean I think that that makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, if you consider it's like 8-bit type stuff, you have like the like four different channels, like you pretty much have to like rely on like counterpoint to make these, you know, to make your harmonies, right? You have to um at most you have like what like the two voices and the the bass. Um I I think I mean that makes a lot of sense to me, right? You have to just like really just write like super, super powerful like melodies and harmonies that like are implied. Um otherwise, you know, it's it's it's it's lost. You have just like two voices to work with. Yeah. Um so I mean that makes a lot of sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah, I and I'm curious, since you, you know, uh for for me personally, like when I if when I write music, if it's literally like a total white canvas, sometimes I just kind of don't know where to go. But like having a constraint, like this music is going to be in this film where this music needs to, you know, explain like a science concept. Like the constraint itself actually helps like foster the creativity. And I'm I yeah, I'm I'm I I don't know if if having, you know, I feel like you have these videos about like what what makes like this sound like icy or what you know, what makes this sound like kind of watery, if like having that constraint like allows people to kind of like um to kind of comp compose um rich harmonies around that.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Yeah, I actually I I I totally feel that. I guess just like any particular like restraint. Um I always think about like whenever I'm doing like a scoring gig. I like to work in like a sandbox, but like I like to have like very clear borders to like what that sandbox is. Um it's like super horrible and I won't tell my clients this, but it's like sometimes I'm just like, I'm just gonna give myself like an arbitrary like restriction for this too.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

It can be really helpful. I mean, yeah. It's kind of interesting because nowadays video games are I mean, to me at least, they feel the soundtracks feel more cinematic because there there isn't this constraint. So it does kind of you know, back in the day, like maybe you only had time for like 32 seconds of music on like these four sound channels, and then you had to repeat it. And so um you had to have something that could be repeated, you had to have something that kind of was not You know, that was consistent, self-consistent. Nowadays, like, you know, you you literally have like it's it's it's like you know, a movie soundtrack. Um I'm curious, you know, I don't know if you have thoughts on like the direction of video game music. Do you do you think that um it's just uh yeah, like the the direction of it, do you do you think we're kind of moving away from like kind of because I I I think that many people would agree that there was just so much creativity kind of in in the first like three decades of of video game music. And um, I'm just curious what your what your thoughts are kind of for the future of it.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

For sure, for sure. I mean, I I definitely think um like I was like a lot more I had like a lot more like spicy opinions like when I was um going through like the like video game minor at Berkeley and like I want to write like you know like Super Mario bangers. And then my professor's like, no, like learn wise, make interactive music, you know, it's what the industry is going towards. And it makes a lot of sense, of course. And I was like, ha ha ha ha ha, whatever, and I would do that kind of thing. I had a lot more spicy opinions about that, and I think I I still kind of like harbor some of those emotions of like, man, I kind of, you know, I I I want everything to be just like straight, straight contrapuntal, four-voice bangers. Um I think but it's um it's definitely different. I think the the landscape is of course like much, much different than you know, like 40 years ago. But I I think it's more of like a lateral kind of thing. I I guess now that I've I've like kind of simmered down a little bit, I I understand like the the merits of kind of like the more like cinematic approach. And I think it's still a very unique medium, of course, with like the interactivity and like the um very there's like another word for it that I'm completely blinking on.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah, well I I mean it probably depends on the nature of the game too, right? I I you have a video on Mario Wonder. I think that's like a a a really good example of kind of not clashing, but combining the old and the new because it's you know, Mario clear clearly has this kind of cartoonish feel. And you know, Mario Mario Wonder is like a it's like a two-dimensional like side scroller. Um, but they do have like an enormous amount of interactivity um with the music, which was which was is really neat. But you know, you you contrast that to like these like kind of open world, realistic 3D games like like Horizon or you know, um where I I feel like it it does feel more like a like a like a film score.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

For sure, for sure. I I think those kinds of things I think work really nicely for like the for the medium. And I think it's like, you know, at the very least, I think like the I think the tools being used and like the the methods of creating these like really vast, like interactive landscapes. I think for like things that I personally like to like write and listen to, like are still applicable, just like the Mario Wonder type stuff. Um I don't know if you've played any like Bellatro. Um but like I love Bellatro and I think um it's it's a really cool soundtrack that like you can't really I think like express, you know, like 40 years ago, right? I mean I think it's still a very it's a very cool theme and I think it's a very like it could be the theme itself could be expressed wonderfully with, you know, I'm sure like 8-bit four channel type stuff. Um but like the way like it interacts, like you know, you go to the shop and like the layers fade out and change and like you buy these cards and it it like the the layers change to be like more like you know, spacey and interesting. Um I think that's really cool. And I think it's like you still have that really nice, like um very like melodic, like anthemic kind of theme, but you can use those same techniques. I think that's kind of like what I personally find really interesting about like the modern day kind of scoring thing.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

I I I the music theory geek in me does want to talk a little about your thoughts on music theory. Uh your recent video on this relative access interchange, I just thought was like it was just super eye-opening to me because I feel like you articulated some things that I kind of was feeling for a long time that just never um I'd never read about, I've never heard about. Um and yeah, in in particular, it's like in and you know, maybe some some listeners will have some experience with this, but you know, canonically you're taught like, okay, we're writing a a song with like a major key and you want some like darker elements. So let's let's borrow down like three flats. And and um, and we all know that this works pretty well, but uh maybe it's because like I um I was like a science major in college or something. It's just I was like, well, why why that? Why left? Like why not write? And if if like you know, if you can be in the key of C major and like write an F minor chord, like can't you be in the key of F minor and write a C major chord? Like, why is it like um why is there no ref reciprocity? And why are borrowed like why is it that when you're in like major that all of like the diatonic modes you borrow from like go flat except for one? For listeners that like aren't super familiar, um so Cadence has this this base this this chart basically. Maybe I'll let you explain your your axis there.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

I mean honestly, I was thinking you might be able to like explain it better than me. I'm thinking like, oh god, how am I gonna explain this? Um yeah, essentially, um I kind of think about like your your home tonality is like your, I call it um tonic vertex. Tonic tonic vertex, thank you. I'm like, what do I even name these things? Um it's it's like your your home like vertex. I think you can have like your um your like major key or minor key, it's just all part of that same vertex, right? You're in that same space. Um and you can like borrow chords, um, I think justifiably from either your um let's say you're in like C major, you can take from C minor, which is like your parallel minor, um, and that's very simply just like modal interchange. And I call that your flat vertex because you're taking from um flatter on the circle of fifths, um your flat vertex, and then similarly, um C major is the same as A minor, you can take from A minor's parallel major, which is A major, and that's your sharp vertex. Um and then, you know, that's kind of sharp on the circle of it. So then you can take from the inverse of that of your tonic vertex, um, which would be like if you're in C major you take from F sharp, or A minor you take from um E flat minor, or any permutation of those.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

I really love this because, well, first of all, you know, there's tons of examples of uh of tunes that use this sharp vertex land. And it's just not something that I think is talked about a lot. I just I love how it kind of can go both ways, that like we can go, we can go like um flat and we can go sharp. And I think that, you know, yeah, I want to say like had I brought one of these tunes in to like my music theory teacher in college, they would have said like, ah yes, like this is just what we would call like non-functional harmony. And there's so many times that um that I've just been kind of um put off by that term because it it feels like it's there's clearly a function to it because my first of all, my ear likes it, my ear recognizes it, and it's a pattern that I want to write with. I don't know what you if you have uh a relationship with with non-functional harmony, but I I just feel like it's a cop-out sometimes. Uh you know, I I agree that there it's you know, you can create chord sequences that that are purely non-functional, and they probably sound non-functional too. I'm just curious, your your thoughts is sometimes non-functional harmony just got cop-out for a function that we haven't like put a name on or found like an appropriate relationship for.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Oh, I mean, yeah, for sure. I I mean, even um like I I have very, I'm sure incendiary thoughts about like um like classical nomenclature. And I think like like similarly, like like like non-harmonic tones, right? Things like that, where it's like like your two resolving tier one, it's just like a nine, whatever, you know. It's like stuff like that. And I think it's like just I guess a product of the times, it's like things are non-functional until they happen more, and then it's kind of like fulfills the the prophecy of like, okay, well, now we have a name for it because it happened so much and we can call it something. Um I think you know, like things like you know, our chromatic media and core progressions and accent or change type stuff, like wasn't super common, I think, in the 1700s, where it like it would be non-functional because like the I guess this like the common ear doesn't have a like a a a reference for it. Um, you wouldn't be able to like hear the precedent and know, like, okay, like this goes to that and I expect it to do that again, or I like I understand kind of like the context in which that happens. Um that makes sense. I think in kind of our more modern times of like these kinds of things happen a lot, and we can our ear like hears that and we can latch onto that and like compare it, oh, this sounds like that. Um, I think it it shouldn't have, you know, any sort of like non non-functional type label. Um and I think generally speaking, it's um kind of as it relates to just like how I like to think about like music theory concepts is that um I think generally like the ear likes to lean, like call like like Occam's razor. Like if you know, like if you have like a make a non-functional chord progression, just like spam random chords, right? Um I think the odds are it probably wouldn't sound non-functional until maybe chord like three or four is my my guess if you just like completely random chords. Because I think the ear wants to hear functionality. Um we live in a very like um like tonal world, and I think our culture is very tonal. We expect tonality. So like we would assign these maybe tenuous functions to these chords, and maybe bundled like we a chord four or five is like, okay, it's clear that these chords aren't uh doing something that like makes a lot of sense. Um and like that would be maybe like the uh competing explanation, perhaps.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Yeah, I know that's that's super interesting that um, you know, it's maybe theory kind of evolves to explain the music of the time. And uh we're kind of um Yeah, we live in a world now where people are doing like really, really creative new things. And um, yeah, and and and maybe the the the theory of of the of the the classical period just isn't really appropriate. We had kind of a philosophical argument about this when we were starting hook theory. It's like, do we force kind of traditional Roman numeral notation onto um an audience with kind of modern music leanings that may not, you know, because because it is uh there are a lot of kind of stuffy things about classical music theory and a lot of things that like don't make a ton of sense. I mean, you know, we one of the co-founders of Hook Theory had no can't read sheet music and you know, uh doesn't really knew nothing about intervals or anything like this, and he was just like, why do we label inversions with like these funny numbers? Like what is that? Um and I think, you know, we ended up kind of just for kind of historical consistency, like kept everything the way it is. Um but um but yeah, but I I think that it's it's it's it's kind of it's heartening to me to to think about um our you know, the music kind of growing and expanding and having new devices and uh you know if if you're a musician or a composer to to to not feel like you need to be constrained by um by old things. And I think that like uh that um you know some of the ideas that that you have like with this with this access the relative access interchange was was just like, yeah, it was very eye-opening to me because I felt like it it it just like sliced off a whole set of like chord progressions that like I didn't really know how to understand. It it it helps me kind of like uh to understand a lot better. Um Todd, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

I don't know if there's anything else in in any other kind of big ideas in in and parts of your manifesto that um that you that we haven't touched on that you might be you'd be interested interested in sharing.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

I think it's just like music theory, like it's what we were talking about earlier, I think should always be like ears, ears first. Yeah. Um it's like it's always retrospective. Um I think it's like yeah, like if if there's like a concept that I think like disagrees with, you know, um what your what your ears are hearing, then, you know, just run ears first, right? Even if it's like on paper, this doesn't make sense, like what I'm looking at, you know, being what my ears are hearing. It's like I think it always has to be ears, right? Um I think that's probably the most important concept that I always tell my students and I, you know, I guess just like talk about to whoever's willing to listen. So like always, always ears first. Like I'll I can think of other things.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

I'm curious, do you ever do you ever listen to to like a new piece of music where you're like, wait a minute, like what was that? Like I gotta go back and like um and like or I don't yeah, I don't have like I don't have a music theory device to describe what that just was. But like I need I need to understand that better.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's definitely happened to me, um especially like I think before I knew, like I went to Berkeley or before I took AP Music Theory, I'm like, this is like a chord that has like the major and minor third note. Like what's what does that mean? Right. And it's like, okay, it's like a dominant with like a sharp nine, whatever. Um and I I think that's kind of stuff still applies. You know, I hear stuff that I'm like, this is not a chord that I can name. It's like this, like, you know, I'm listening to the notes and I'm like, this is like it's I can tell you how it functions, and I can tell you kind of like what I hear it doing, but I can't really tell you like what the chord is called. Um and I always loved when that thing kind of like pops up. It's super cool. It's um yeah, you know, I think it's like you you can almost feel just like the how like intuitive and how um like the like the thought process of like these kinds of things. Um and it's it's always like super fun.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Cool. So I wanted uh to just to pause for a second. So I I know that you had like brought in possibly some music that you might want to share. Um yeah, maybe we could take a look at it and just the the goal of this is really just to to take a peek into Cadence's mind to see um, yeah, how she understands uh a piece of music. And I'll give her the floor to to talk a little bit about what she finds interesting or notable. Okay, I'm gonna listen. That that that was incredible.

unknown 35:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

I love this tune so much.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

I wish I could write music like this.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

That I like I feel the exact same way. I've like I've been listening to this for like 10 plus years, and I'm like, I I don't know how to write this.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Like where is this from?

SPEAKER_01 36:03

It's from um it's like a ridiculously actually not that long, but it's called The Irregular at Magic High School. It's um anime that I'm not gonna lie, I don't remember anything about. I watched maybe like four episodes of and I don't remember even liking it honestly. But I heard this track happen. Um it it plays like once, and I just like I paused and I just like couldn't believe what I was hearing. Like, um, and then I found it later. Um but yeah, it's just like some random background track that plays once in an anime.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

I feel like there's some there's some relative access interchange here. There are a lot of moments when I want my ears want to hear like like a like a like a minor nine or a dominant, but then I hear the major instead, like a major seven or a major nine, which I just love. My ears are like just so pleasantly surprised to when that happens.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Yeah, pretty much this this truck um I think is like a great like masterclass in first I think it's like super like horizontal in terms of like the way the harmonies constructed. Of course, there's like these like big vertical chords. Um but it's just like um there's this like a scythe where they just like weave between these like different implied harmonies. Um and I I love how like it's it's not atonal, of course, it's like rather tonal, but it it's always like every other chord is like unexpected. And I think it like leverages your um I think your like desire for tonality in such a way where it's like you feel this like weird shift every like every single bar. But it doesn't feel like it's not like giant steps where you're just like, oh my god, it's so much like whiplash, you're going just you know, all around, you know, there's like the circle of fits. Like it it's it feels like very um organic, but also it's just like so unexpected. And I think like I haven't heard anything like this since and like even you know, I I've I've like looked at it and I've analyzed and I've thought about it for the however many years, and it's still just like so fresh and just so crazy to me. Um I mean I I love this tune for that, like that big reason. I think it's just like it's a great way of thinking about like uh tonality in a way that's like not very rigid. It's like you can kind of just like move around these places and it's not modulation, it's not like even tonicization, it's just like you know, whatever. It's these like tonal relationships that feel good and then feel unexpected and then feel good. Um and I think that's super, super cool.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

I love um, yeah, it it it feels like it kind of is like teetering on the edge the whole time. It's like because there it's and I think this is just such a fine line to to to weave as a composer because you don't want to like fall off the edge and then where where people become disaffected. It's like it just holds you on like just like at the edge for for for for a long time. And yeah, and it has it's enough elements of kind of you, yeah, it's like, all right, I see where we're going. Nope, that's not okay. Now I see where we're going. Nope. You know. I'm curious because um, you know, I I I know that you had talked a little bit um in some videos of kind of about j Japanese composers, but I don't know, I I feel like this happens to me more in like anime soundtracks than it does otherwise. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

I mean, like definitely it's it's it's like a claim I don't I've like never really wanted to like make in a video or like you know, it's like this is more common in this or that, because I I don't know why it is, and I can't really like back it up other than like anecdotally, but like absolutely like this kind of thing. If I heard it just like in out of context, it'd be like this from an anime. Like I wouldn't know why. But it's like it feels like that. Um and that's super cool. I love that. I mean, it's definitely like stuff like this, other people kind of in like the at least vaguely aware of like, you know, like Japanese, like or like anime or video game music, and they'd be able to, I think, identify that it's like probably Japanese. Um, but like why is that, right? And I think it's interesting to think about.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Cool. Well, thanks so much for sharing that. Uh for sure. Before we hop off here, I was just wanted to see if you had, you know, any any kind of words of advice for for someone who is, I don't know, like kind of on the fence about music theory. It feels like a deep plunge. I mean, some of the the stuff that we're talking about here seems seems quite complicated. Um but for for someone who, you know, what what is kind of your your pitch of of of in support of music theory for um for the casual musician?

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Um I think music theory is kind of all right, I suppose. Um I I think um it's it's really not. It's not a super serious thing. And I think it's like music theory is it's a result of what you're like, of what you're already thinking about and what you're already hearing versus something you have to learn. I think that's like everything you're learning is just the nomenclature. You're learning what things are called. Um, but ultimately I think a lot of the concepts you're going to learn about are things that you already um hopefully. I mean, I think if you're getting examples that make sense to you, you'd be like, oh, I totally recognize that and that makes sense to me. Like I can hear that it happens here, and I can also think of other examples that it happens in those other things and it makes sense. Um I think that's kind of how I like to teach music theory, and I think hopefully how you'll be able to learn music theory is um like it's it's all retrospective analysis. It's stuff that you already understand, and you're just learning the names of what those things are called. Um so learn music theory. It's fun. Not only kind of all right, it's fun. Um and yeah, just you know, have fun with it.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Great. Thanks so much, Cadence. It's it's been really a joy talking to you and and and hearing your uh your views on things. And I really appreciate you uh taking the time to sit down with us.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Yeah, thank you guys. Thanks for having me.