Sound Thinking with Hooktheory
Hooktheory's "Sound Thinking" podcast is a series featuring interviews with musicians, composers, and creators who discuss music theory, songwriting, and creativity in an accessible way.
Sound Thinking with Hooktheory
Sound Thinking with Robert Eibach
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Sound Thinking: Songwriting, Confidence & Creative Process with ÅNGEL 004
In this episode of Sound Thinking, we sit down with Grammy-winning producer, songwriter, and remixer Robert Eibach for a deep, wide-ranging conversation about the craft of songwriting — inspiration, process, creativity, confidence, and everything in between.
Eibach's career spans years in the music industry, with production, remix, and songwriting credits alongside artists like Ariana Grande, Taylor Swift, Camila Cabello, Jennifer Lopez, Mark Ronson, Kesha, Normani, Sabrina Carpenter, and Alan Walker. His work has earned him a Grammy Award and a Latin Grammy nomination, including a win for Best Children's Music Album as a member of Lucky Diaz and The Family Jam Band. He's also contributed to projects that topped the charts and earned industry recognition, including Wouter Kellerman and Ricky Kej's "Winds of Samsara," which reached #1 on the Billboard New Age Chart and won a Grammy for Best New Age Album. Robert Eibach +3
Joining Eibach is songwriter and artist ÅNGEL 004, and together they trade insights on what it really takes to turn inspiration into finished work — from finding confidence in the creative process to navigating the highs and lows of a career built on making music with (and for) some of the industry's biggest names.
Tune in for an honest, insightful conversation about what happens behind the scenes of the songs you love.
Hi everyone, I'm Morgan, also known as Angel004. I'm here with Robert Ibach, who is an amazing songwriter and has done a lot of major accomplishments, which we'll get into in just a moment. I'm here with Sound Thinking with Hook Theory. And what we do is we unveil music theory, the minds behind them, and everything in between. So without further ado, hello, Robert. Hi. Thank you so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02So I know that we connected uh online, as many people do these days. And when I saw your portfolio of songwriting and some of your credits, and also just like your energy, your like positive like radiation, I was like, okay, this is a perfect person to just kind of talk about and kind of unravel some of how you got into songwriting, your music career, your accomplishments, and things like that. So if it's okay with you, why don't we start at the beginning, like when you first started writing?
SPEAKER_00When I was born, not even of you to say. Um, yeah, I mean, like I I think like most artists and songwriters and and performers and producers, you know, I started doing music with friends, you know, in in high school and uh had a band, had, you know, did all the things, and and I started thinking like, oh, you know, maybe how do I record this stuff? So I bought a four-track recorder and, you know, started kind of just playing around, you know, just doing those kinds of things. And I didn't ever think of it as a career, you know, at that time. It was just more for fun. And, you know, every I think every young uh person has those aspirations, like, oh, well, maybe I can be a rock star. But um, but I didn't really think that that was gonna be my journey. I thought it, you know, I was gonna be a doctor or a lawyer. So as I was uh, you know, doing music with friends and and graduating high school, I went into college. I went in as actually as a biochemistry major, you know, um, which is way far from what I do now. I love science and I love, you know, you know, technology and and what we can do as humans to develop cures and and stuff like that. And that's what I I wanted to do, but I didn't love it when I was doing it, you know. And uh a friend of mine who is uh I went to Temple University in Philadelphia, and one of my friends said, uh, who was in the film program there, said, Hey, you know, there's a music production program at in our in our department. And I next day I went to my advisor and I I changed my major and I was like, I'm I'm doing this. And uh that was kind of the the start of it is throughout even in college, you know, in we were still you know playing music, like my friends were still recording and and doing those things. So it was it was more of a hobby up until that point. And that was when I was like, I love this, you know, this is this is me, this is exactly what I want to do. Through that, you know, learning how to actually record, how to how to do things properly, you know, those kinds of things. You know, got an internship as we do in in at a studio in Philadelphia called uh Third Story Recording Recording Studios. I kind of, you know, as you work with people, I was engineering more and doing engineering at the time, but as you work with different artists, you start I don't absorbing things. So you could see how different people, not necessarily how they're writing, but you kind of start experiencing what their songs are like and it starts influencing how you start writing, you know, because you're around all these people that are doing this and actually doing it for a living and and stuff. And then I started analyzing music that I love, you know, and and oh, like how did the Beatles write the song or you know, whatever. Um, you know, what's interesting is that I I took uh bass lessons and piano lessons in in college. I started learning, you know, basics of theory, but you really don't know until someone really explains it, right? So, so, and then you realize that this is crazy and that everything works with everything, and how how do you make a good song? No. But I started learning a lot from David, and he learned how to write songs from a man named Andre Crouch, who they call the godfather of modern gospel, was like an incredible songwriter.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_00And so it just kind of having people around that you could bounce things off of, and and um, you know, I think as artists we tend to be guarded, you know, when we're writing, you know, from our feelings and writing songs. And once I was able to let that down and be like, okay, what will improve this? I think my songwriting started improving and I started being able to open my uh my mind and uh what I could do you know artistically for different artists and in myself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it definitely the writing process can be so vulnerable part of storytelling because I I find that when writing you try and pull from real life experiences, right? Because you're trying to mine for that the true authentic authenticity that you can't, you know, write in and out of. There kind of has to be that nugget of truth for humans, I think, energetically to kind of connect with music, at least for me. I'm curious, you started talking about the transition where you said you started like analyzing music like the Beatles. What was it like at that time? So you you had, you know, just graduated college. So what was available to you at that time to help you analyze?
SPEAKER_00Were you just listening or uh listening um and you know, having you know a keyboard or a guitar and and um you know kind of googling tabs and then you know, and that turned out to be, you know, sometimes they're good, sometimes they're not good. You know, I'll have two of the same song in front of me and they're completely different, you know. And then you're like, oh, wait a minute, this one's transposed to this key, and this, you know, it depends on you know what you pull up and and different things like that. But yeah, I mean that, and also having you know, people who are amazing at what they do around me, that I could say, wait, is this the right chord? And they're like, No. But um, but you know, being able to have those resources, which I'm very blessed to have had the people around me that I've had that have always been very, you know, supportive and and very, you know, people I could learn from. And um not everyone has that, especially in the music business, it's it's pretty hard. There's a lot of competition sometimes. But what I learned is that the people who are successful at it are the ones who are more willing to share what they have learned throughout it because they're they want more good music. They want things to be, you know, you know, pro and and great.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like the intention is pure. It's like, okay, the goal is to like provide the world with the best experiences of music we can. Yeah. And the more people that can do that, the more that mission like elevates. So I think just like that is always a good mission. And you're right, having people around you that are willing to give you chances, are willing to trust you, and you being willing to take the chances and fail and humble, humble yourself before a process.
SPEAKER_00And it took a minute, you know. There there's a there's a time where where that you get very, like I was saying earlier, very guarded. And you're like, yeah, but this is my heart and soul was poured into the song.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, music is is art, right? And and it's it's subjective, what people like and don't like. And you could sit there and and say, you know, this you know, Sabrina Carpenter song is is the biggest hit in the world, and we all know it's really good, you know, whatever it is. But then people are like, oh, I don't like her, I don't like that.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, but it's you're gonna remember it after you hear it once.
SPEAKER_00So but so learning how to kind of strip away the you know the challenges that we put on ourselves and being able to, you know, look at something like that, or a Taylor Swift song or a Beatles song or whatever, and say, you know what, that's really what what is so good about that? And you know, it takes a minute to, like I was saying, you know, it takes a minute to get yourself to that, you know, mental state where you're okay with with failing or you're okay with writing something bad to get something good. You know, and I think it, you know, everyone has their own process. And the more you do it, it's one of those things where it's practice makes perfect. And the more you learn, the more you you absorb and be and the more you're around, the more it's gonna influence, you know, what you do and and how you make and create music. And I think with um where I was going with that, the long way to get there. But we're still here. But um, but I think that you could also get very analytical about it. And you could you could sit there and just analyze it and you and you could come up with like, these are the greatest chords I've ever come up with, and it's sterile. You know, it's it's very you know, stiff. It's it's it's just not the the human element is not there. You know, the the it's it's overanalyzed, it's over, it's overdone. Yeah. Whereas the you have to find that balance of like the vulnerability of being able to write what's like you know in your heart at that moment with that, you know, knowing the theory or the you know, these chords are gonna work or you know, whatever that is, and being able to combine those. And that doesn't always happen on the first right. You know, it comes with practicing and and and rewriting and and being open to not being over-critical, but also balancing your your emotional side with it.
SPEAKER_02When you talk about looking at songs, analyzing their chords, what makes a song good? Obviously, we at Hook Theory love that kind of talk because we love to be that supporting element to say, like, hey, maybe you don't have a mentor sitting in the studio saying, actually, that's a G minor, not a G major. You can look it up and feel confident and know that the science behind the music, the data of what makes it good is there, so that you can focus on, like you said, the human element, the magic that no AI, no computer that the people give with the storytelling. So, um, like you said, we I really believe that it's a combination of both, right? It's like, okay, what makes a chord progression good? What makes it flow? Why does going to the four to the five feel like this or what, you know, whatever? But then being able to pull that thread of like human magic through. So obviously, we're a big fan of the data science here at Hook Theory. But now that we know that, you know, those tools are out there, like ours and other resources, I want to talk a little bit about your experience with like the magic behind the music and like you said, making songs that aren't sterile, you know, and um specifically around your experience of your process working with these big artists. I mean, we have names like Ariana Grande, Kamiya Cabello. I mean, the list kind of like goes on with your portfolio. It's amazing. But um, would love to hear about your workflow and how you as a writer are able to take, you know, the soul of an artist and kind of pull it through so that audiences can feel the authenticity of that one artist through your song.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's interesting because you know, when you when you get something, a lot I do a lot of remixes for for for labels with like you had mentioned, Ariana and Camilla. And and when you get that vocal, it's already perfect. The song's already perfect, like everything's right about it. Which as a producer and working with in developing new artists, I can say, okay, I know what worked for Ariana for this, you know, and you're not stealing anything, but you're you're using that, like I was talking about, you know, being influenced in one way or another. And it's like, okay, this melody is great, and what makes it so great? You know, it's not just because you have one of the greatest vocalists, you know, of a generation on it, but you also know that the details are right. Like if Max Martin was involved in it, he's a stickler for those details in the songwriting. And um in taking that and knowing, like, okay, if I'm gonna develop a new artist, whatever their their genre is or or whatever their their style or you know what they're doing, it has to be authentic to them. But you could also use what's been done and what's what's popular as kind of a roadmap as to what is gonna be successful. So you can take that, like, okay, what made this hook so catchy? Why is this melody so good and not annoying, you know? You know, because you can make something that's really hooky or catchy that it just it's it's annoying, you know. But you can also make something that's really, you know, you want to keep singing, you want to keep, you want to keep listening to that. Wow, that's so good over and over and over again. And um, and that's what these great songwriters have been able to do over generations. And um, you know, and and being able to kind of be a conduit between the artists that are super successful and newer artists, it's been a really, you know, empowering thing for me because I'm able to translate that. I'm able to say, okay, well, here's why this doesn't work, you know, or or try these different things because it can just be a little bit more catchy, or, or these lyrics can make you can say this in a more clever way. And those kinds of things have really helped, you know, um, I guess, form who I am as a producer and and a remixer and a songwriter and and everything.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, definitely. I think that there's something to be said for not trying to reinvent the wheel every time, but again, pull like this authentic thread through of old artists and new artists. And that's another thing that I feel like not to keep harping on the tool, but to when looking at um data about chord progressions and thinking about okay, what makes this good? How can we change it a little bit so that it fits? But there's only, you know, A B C D E F G. So it's like, how do we get creative with these notes over and over and over again? And I think like that's what art is kind of about. Just it could be painting, it could be, you know, we're all using the same colors, we're all using maybe somewhat similar brushes, but like how do we continue to create landscapes that are unique each time with what we have?
SPEAKER_00You know, you touched on something interesting with like chord progressions, and as from a remixer standpoint, you know, I would get a song, like an Ariana Grande song or something, and I rarely use the chord progression that they used in in the original production. You know, it's I I'll do a lot of chord substitutions and and you know, sometimes they're in major and I'll do the relative minor, you know, to give it a different you know, personality and and those kinds of things. So so I think when you when you really learn about that, you know, in the in the theory of being able to, oh, you could use it, it depends on the what you're trying to emote and and what fits with the style that you're doing, you know, and um and being being able to understand that and knowing like, you know, for instance, like remixing, like house music has certain progressions that always work, you know, and um being able to be creative within the rules of whatever you know genre you're working in. And um, you know, pop, for instance, you know, there's progressions that always work. But how do you make that more creative each time, you know? And um, and I think there's there's definitely a lot of artists who are able to do things, like Billie Eilish is a great example of someone who's able to really develop a sound, you know, not just in her vocals, but in the production around, you know, what what her and her brother do, and and just understanding that this, you know, this music, these chords work with this vocal in this certain way to give this emotion, you know. And um it's fun when you kind of open up to that and you understand, oh, these these are things that you can do, it makes it really fun because you you have unlimited possibilities within the limitations that you're given, you know, which is really crazy to say, but um, but it's that's what's so beautiful about art and music is that we can do those things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I one of the things I like to think is learning the rules, but knowing when to break them, and when to say, like, actually, we have this sandbox and we know that this is where we're gonna make the sandcastle, but instead of using a shovel, we're just gonna use this cup, you know, to build things, you know, and it's like all of that still works, and I think that is what continues to create these little, like, if you look at the the history of music and how it's changed over time, and rock turned into this, turned into this, and now we have, you know, techno and we've got hyper pop and all these kind of like crazy niche genres. It's like someone just changed the the casing just a little bit of the mold, yeah. And then that allowed for the next generation or whatever, the next songwriter to to evolve music, which is amazing.
SPEAKER_00One of my favorite, probably my favorite album right now is Rosalia's new album, and what they've done, just to like in the writing and just the composition and in all of those things is just like amazing. You know, it's just it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, here's the rules. We're just gonna destroy them right now and and come up with something beautiful, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's no longer it's like we can be opera opera pop. Here it is, new niche genre, boop, opera pop. In your story, when you made that pivot when you were, you know, in STEM pathway, you know, and then decided after talking to one person you were gonna do music production. There are a few like instances in my own career and I'm sure other people's careers where you identify like one person in your path that kind of just like boop shows you a little like trapdoor. It's almost like the universe is like, look behind the curtains. And then what you choose to do with it, you know, is like our own journeys, I think. Um, but I wanted to go back and touch a little bit about like the mentorship that you have had and like who were some of your I mean, the amazing person who owns the studio, and I'll let you introduce them too, David. Um, but yeah, just wanted to see if you want to touch on any mentors in your life that really like helped uplift that in you.
SPEAKER_00You know, that's I mean, that's a great question because um when I was in Philadelphia at this uh studio I interned there, uh Scott Herzog and Mars Mark Sariski, who were both amazing engineers and producers, owned the studio there, and they gave me a lot of knowledge, you know, and I didn't necessarily know what to do with that knowledge.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_00But uh, I mean there's things that I pull pull back. Even now I'm like, oh yeah, you know, we we talked about these. Um while I was working out that studio, we worked with a producer named uh Swissbeats, who's um a lot of people know as Alicia Keys' husband, but he's a he's also an amazing producer, his number one hits, like just amazing. And he uh we were working on um an album together in Philadelphia, and there was some downtime, and he and I were talking, and I said, you know, hey, I'm I'm planning on moving to Los Angeles, you know, in a couple months. Uh, do you have any advice? And what he said was, you know, be a sponge, you know, do the things that you need to do. It's as far as, you know, if someone asks you to go get coffee, go get coffee. But do whatever you can to be in those sessions. Like if you if you're just sitting there to be a runner, don't be upset that you're the runner. Absorb what you can in those sessions because whatever you learn is gonna be with you for the rest of your career. And and just essentially humble yourself. Just don't don't think you're too big for the room because you're not, because everyone in that room is is, you know, uh, and that's coming from someone who's you know, one of the biggest producers. And I really appreciated him saying that, you know, because I felt like, you know what, he validated how I was already feeling. And he, you know, and it made me feel like, you know what, I don't have to sit there and fight for position because if I if I make myself available to to do these sessions or to help out, I will be able to learn and also, you know, grow and and potentially get you know more gigs from it or whatever. And then when I had come here and when I met David, I he kind of you know validated that as well and you know, essentially said the same thing. Hey, you know, I know you've worked for you know a couple years in in the business, but you're in LA now and it's a different story, you know. And I said, Oh, you know, whatever. What do you what do you need me to do? Like, just yeah, let's go, let's go. Yeah. And um within a month of you know, being, you know, starting as an intern, and that I was already running sessions, I was already doing the thing because it's it's not to be braggy, it's more to be like, okay, I took the opportunities that were available to me, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna jump in fee first. Like I don't care, you know, uh, you know, I'll work, you know, the night shift somewhere, I'll do whatever I need to do to feed myself and to keep a roof over my head to get to where I want to be, you know, in my career, because I moved out here. I'm not like resting. Like this is not, this is not gonna be like this, like a party time. It's it's definitely like we're we're we're doing business, like we're here to work. And and I wanted to stay here, so I didn't want to be the the person that let that opportunity slip away. You know, because even having the opportunity to move to where music is. Being created uh uh you know daily, and not saying it wasn't in in Philadelphia, but it's here is like the epicenter of all music, right? It's all these records are created here and and done. And you know, I wanted to be a part of that. I wanted to be someone who was in the middle of it and being able to do that, you know. And it it wasn't about for me at the time, it wasn't about the you know, the fame or whatever, or the awards or any of that stuff. It was more about being able to be surrounded with music and and create and and evolve as as who I was. I didn't think I was gonna be a producer, you know. I and I thought I was just gonna be an engineer, you know, and and work, but then I fell in love with producing, I fell in love with remixing, and fell in love even more with songwriting and those kinds of things, and and it just evolved from that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think that's really important for people to remember too, is like when you're coming into new situations, just being open and knowing that it's what you learn after you think you know it all that really matters, you know? And and being able to humble yourself before people who the people who have been doing things for so long and like have knowledge, you know, and then also just coming into it with the right intention of just having fun, like you said, and learning and not trying to be famous or trying to be whatever, but just like, hey, how do I play in this world that's fascinating to me? Like thinking about life as play, which I feel like you kind of embody this like energetic, like playful kind of person. So that it's really cool to know that that, you know, can came through all of the hard work and sweat and tears that happen when you're doing when you're following your dream, because it is a lot of that sometimes. It's a lot of rejection, it's a lot of you know.
SPEAKER_00There's there's definite, definitely like negative experiences, but at the same time, I'm I'm blessed to be able to do what I do every day and and to work with the people that I work with and to have the experiences and opportunities. And even still, you know, I was talking with um with this amazing songwriter, uh, Carol Connor. She's like a legendary, like uh uh one of the first trailblazing female songwriters, and and we were doing um an interview this earlier today, and there was some downtime, and I was asking her questions about songwriting, you know, and and things like that, and and just you know, her her take on certain things. And we ended up talking about, you know, Beatles songs, you know, and things like that, you know, just just because it's when you're when you're surrounded by people who are just really great at what they do, you want to learn more. You know, you wanna, you know, and there's an and I I I learned early on that there's no shame in asking questions. No matter how good you are in your career or or what spot you are in your career, you know, if you're around someone who's who's done something that you're not doing or you're or have has accomplished a lot of things, ask questions, you know, and you will find out more often than not that they will answer your question. They love talking about this stuff. I mean, you know, it's it's it's a great, yeah, we're in a great field to be able to do something like that. And into it's how we connected, you know, over over Instagram or or the internet, it's it makes it even easier to be able to talk to people and to say, you know what, I I love how you wrote this song. Can you like ex give me your processor? Yeah, or what how did you come up with these things? You know, so stuff like that is just like I I love doing that because I love the knowledge of it. And um, it definitely you know helps me continue to grow, you know, because no, like I was saying, you know, no matter where you are in your career, there's always room to grow. There's always you always want to improve. And and I was telling a friend of mine uh recently, he's an amazing guitar player, and he he was practicing, and I and I was like, and I started laughing. I was like, you're so funny because you're so good. And he's like, I'm yeah, you know, I have to practice, you know, I have to practice. Like I sit and I and I practice producing, you know, like like you know, I'll sit and I'll and when I have downtime or something, I'll sit there and be like, okay, this was kind of tripping me out or let me figure that out and like let me like dive in and and you know, how do I get better at that? Or or songwriting, right? It's it's it's one of those strong songwriting is one of those things where you could always, I don't like to use the word improve because it's that makes it sound like what you've done before. It isn't great, but you can always grow and you could always like learn new new melodies and and learn new things. And um, I think that's what you know is so special about what you guys do with hook theory is that you could you have it all in one spot to be able to be like, hey, how did they do this? Oh, yeah, oh that melody does this. Okay, you know, that that's great, you know. Um so having those tools now is just that's that's special. That's something that that really helps, you know, artists and and even you know, producers like myself, and you know, you work with David Getta, you know, like there's a like all kinds of, you know, no matter where you are in your career, you can use these tools, and and you have to be willing to know that you want to grow though too. You know, yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_02You have to again humble yourself before the tools and the knowledge to say, what am I gonna learn? What am I gonna learn today?
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Another thing I wanted to ask you about was you've had lots of proud moments in your career, I'm sure, but can you think of one that specifically kind of stands out to you that you're like, okay, this is how I knew I maybe made a transition from this is a cool hobby, or like now I'm in this cool place in LA and I'm learning all this stuff to like, oh, a self-validation moment where you really saw your work like sprout and you were proud of that.
SPEAKER_00I think, you know, being part of some different projects that were charting on Billboard early on, probably, you know, the first remix I did for Ariana Grande was No Tears Left to Cry. And when that like really took off and it was me that like it was all me and in on the remix and and that kind of stuff, that was very special. That was one of those things where where it's like, oh, you know, I because I had things that were successful, but that was the first one that's gonna number one. You know, that was the that was like one of those very special like moments where you're just like, whoa, you know, that's cool. Then along the lines, you know, having Grammy nominations, you know, those those moments are always special. And winning last year was was super special. Like that was one of those where I was telling someone last night at a at an event, they they were asking me how it felt like winning. And I said, you know what? What's interesting is that I didn't it didn't sink in for like a month. You know, it was it was amazing on stage, and you feel all the energy on stage, yeah. But it it took a month, and I kept thinking to myself, and I told my mom, I was just like, I I I haven't like emotionally processed this yet. Is there something wrong with me? You know, and then it took, you know, um I was watching the Oscars and and then I was just like, oh wow, yeah, I remember that from a month ago. Like that was cool, yeah. So so those kinds of things, and I and I say that a lot too because I feel like you know, sometimes it's work, work, work, work, work, and you don't give yourself time to pro, you know, to process those feelings and to to reflect on the achievements. So I think that's also very important to be able to be like, hey, I did this, you know, or we did this, or whatever it is, you know, and being able to to enjoy that moment, you know. And because it you never know, like those, those things, the accomplishments, you know, they you may not hit that again. And and um, but I will say this every time I produce a song that gets released, or write a song that gets released, or I am the artist of a song that gets released is a proud moment because you know, those those we're creating, we're sharing our our life with the world, you know. And um, you know, I was I was telling an artist recently, you know, they were talking about being successful, and I said releasing something is is success. You know, it's whatever you you there's tiers of success, but don't discount what you feel or or lower rungs on those tiers. Every moment is important because without those, you don't get to the highest, the highest moments.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's so true. And that kind of goes back to your theme of like putting in the work, being being willing and excited to be the runner, being willing and excited to release your first song or even write your first song and know that it's that is an accomplishment. Because yeah, you're right. We all we all do have to start somewhere, and without that stuff, you can't ever reach your goals.
SPEAKER_00Well, you as a songwriter as well, like when you when you write a song, you have to feel great after, you know. Yes, no matter when you write a song or how you do it, it's like, oh wow, I accomplished that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02For me, sometimes it's like a form of exorcism, it's more like, oh, the demons have left my body. The whatever was plaguing my mental is now alleviated. I mean, it's different now that, like you said, I'm practicing more. So instead of it being this, like, I've got this emotional baggage I need to throw onto a page or into an instrument, it's now like, okay, I'm gonna take 30 minutes today and open my doll and play with my harp and just lay down whatever comes out. And there's been a lot of great stuff that I found like, oh, this I came here just to practice, and now this is really real, and it feels like something that I've, you know, premeditated before or like compared to other work that I've really prepped to do. So I think it's you're right, it's just coming to that place all every time and humbling yourself before whatever is about to happen and just like taking the time and space to put in the work, you know.
SPEAKER_00And and to piggyback on what you just said, it's it's interesting because there's days that that we all wake up and we're like, oh, I just don't want to do this thing.
SPEAKER_03Right, right.
SPEAKER_00But opening the software or like sitting with a guitar or a harp or piano, whatever your instrument, and you the second you sit with that, you start doing stuff. You know, it it all that stress or whatever that was stopping you from doing it, it leaves. It's gone. You know, it's like, okay, cool. And whether whatever you come up with in that moment is is you know a final product or not, it doesn't matter. It's the it's the fact that you're you're doing it and you're creating and you're you're enjoying the you know that communication between you and the instrument or the the dog or the you know whatever whatever it is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's kind of like when you're on like a workout journey or something, it's like, I don't want to go to the gym, I don't want to go to the gym, but like once you're there, you're like, okay, I'm here, I might as well yeah, exactly. Um yeah, the all of that is really real. And I think it's something that artists to artists, I do, I love to be reminded of and keep reminding others, like just keep trying. And that was something when we first met, you know, uh on our first Zoom call that you said that really struck me when I was asking you about your process. You're like, look, I just keep showing up and you know, stuff keeps happening.
SPEAKER_00And I'm yeah, it's really it's hard to explain something that's so different every time, you know. And and um I know people who are very regimented, you know. Um, I mentioned, you know, Carol Connors earlier, and and we have a Grammy nomination with her this year and her life story um uh in an audiobook. It's called Elvis Rocky and Me. And she talks about different processes that she went through in as not only as a recording artist, but also songwriter. And um the reason I bring that up is we were talking with another amazing songwriter who's a friend of hers named Diane Warren, who's like one of the greatest of all time, right? She had um shown the trailer for her documentary that she has out now, and her process is like, I'm in the room, I close the door, whatever happens, how you know, like those kinds of things. I'm like, oh wow, that's so different than the for me. It's it's it's one of those things where it's very it depends on the situation. So when you come from like a producer standpoint, it's I'm more interested in what's more comfortable for the artists I'm working with to get them to be able to be in the creative mode. Um, I'm very, you know, like water, you know, I'm adaptable in in how I how I do things. But you know, when I when I want to sit down and um and write, you know, and uh the last album that I had released uh for myself, I I had in my brain what I wanted to do for probably a year. And um and I said, okay, I'm going to um I want to do a bunch of you know 10 songs and I want them to be short. I wanted to see what I can do, you know, under two minutes or under three minutes kind of thing. And I have this concept of and and kind of do something electronic, but not the same genre, you know, not specifically the same sub-genre. And these things were going through my head and of how I wanted to do it. And then when I sat down to create, I'm like, okay, I have a week, no one's gonna be in the studio. I can literally create. I did it in a week. And I what I was doing wasn't necessarily the overall concept was there, but it changed as I was going. Right. And I'm just like, wow. And I sat and I'm thinking, I'm like, I have a sound for sure because I was sitting there and it's like, it just sounds like me. It sounds like me no matter what. It kind of was like a light bulb that went off, and and I was just like, well, you know, no matter how much I wanted to to kind of jump into all these other things, it wasn't being true to what I was here to do, you know, and what was coming out of me was what was supposed to come out of me in that moment, and and I just let it go, you know. And it's like, okay, well, and then I started getting ideas for songs and and and things as as I was going, as I was, you know, just letting whatever happened happen. Yeah. And um when I was uh uh working in Philadelphia, one of the owners of the studio had told me that um they had worked with Steve Vai, this amazing guitar player. He he was Frank Zappa's guitar player. And um Steve Vai went to Van Halen and said, I love like I love your sound, I love your rig. I want to hear what like I want to play through it, I want to see what it sounds like. And he got really frustrated because he sounded like Steve Vai. And it was like one of these things that is just um uh I hope I quoted that properly, but but um, but it was something that has stuck with me for a long time is because like we have what make we're unique as humans, and our art is unique because of that. And you know, no matter how much you could sit there and try and recreate an Ariana Grande song, you're probably not gonna do it because you're not her. Yeah, you know, and you're not that team in that moment doing being able to do that, yeah. But you are you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So create what you can be influenced by her, yeah, but but create what you're supposed to create. Do do what you're supposed to do, you know? Yeah. And it's it's you know, I think the same thing with with art as well. You know, you have, you know, so it's like Picasso and and and you have someone like a Matisse who is similar to Po, but it's not the same. But you could see how there's influences there, but not in music's the same way, you know, and um, and I think that when we kind of submit to that a little bit and and accept it, yeah, like the creativity flows, yeah, because it's what it's supposed to be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then you make something like truly unique that isn't forced to be in one. I think I've I've gone through those experiences too, where I'm like, oh, it was what I'm writing. I've struggled to even find a genre for my music. And I'm like, who is like me? Do I need to start making music? Like, and then I had a couple people be like, Look, dude, maybe you're carving your own thing, just like stop. And I'm like, okay, okay, okay. Like it's those kinds of comforts where it's like you are you, and that's the value. Like, that's the sparkle of like the whole thing, which brings me to an interesting point of you know, you're writing and producing and remixing songs all the time for other artists, and you're doing artist development with newer artists, but then you also have your your your artist identity, and um curious about how you balance those two things as a songwriter.
SPEAKER_00Um well, the beauty about the songs for someone else is it's from their experience, right? So it's it's I like to um I think we had talked about this actually when we when we first talked, is that there's a lot of artists who they get song shopped to them, you know, and and you know, and they choose, okay, these are the songs and the labels there, and they're you know, and then they they you know um you know put their touch on on what that song is. I like to come from a different place. Um I like to sit with an artist, and if they don't have a song already, I I want to develop it with them because I feel like any artist that's putting out a song, um, I love the songs that are out there, the you know, the the the pop songs that are out there that are written for for different artists and stuff like that. Yeah. I um but I like being able to create an identity, like you said, you know, and and um for me from a songwriter-producer standpoint with another artist, it's not about me, it's about that artist, you know, and like taking that away from it and just being like, okay, what's best for you, this song, and you know, the the goal, the career, you know, the path of of what this is supposed to be. For myself, it's more like loose, you know, it's more like I can do whatever I want. You know, um and I've kind of taken that into the into remixing a little bit because I'll work with a label or an artist and they'll say, I want a remix like this, or that'll go here, that'll do these things. And within those parameters, I think about how can I make this really fun? What can I put in in there that's a little different? And um it's like a challenge for me. It's like a puzzle. It's like, yeah, okay, what what will make this different than the last one I did? Because there was a a period where I was doing a lot of remixes, and that was like the main thing I was doing. And um the label and the pro the promoters kept coming back and saying, I want one just like the last one. I want one just like that. Yeah. I'm like, okay, how do I make this a little bit more fun for me? So um, and and it was great. It was a great exercise because it made me want to get better each time doing it. You know, it didn't make it boring, you know, even though they're giving me like same thing, same thing, same thing. Um and every time I I would hand it in, I'd be like, Oh, I'm gonna get the email that says And they're like, this is amazing, this is great.
SPEAKER_01So I'm like, okay, awesome. Like we're doing the we did it.
SPEAKER_03Checking the boxes.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. I like doing stuff like that. I like making it fun and and um, you know, giving myself little challenges as as I as I'm going. And like I was saying, with my own music, where I'm like, yeah, it's open. And it really is. It's it's just whatever flow. I have ideas of things that I want to do. You know, I'm like, okay, this would be cool. Combining these elements, doing these things would be really cool. So I'm gonna do it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And um and have fun with it. And I think that as artists, as creators, when we are open to those kinds of things, I think better art is created a lot of times, you know, because it's more real. It's more, it's more what's flowing, what's what's in the moment, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Again, and people can like feel that, you know, people hear it in their own.
SPEAKER_00And I even take that to the, you know, when I'm producing for another artist, it's it's when writing for them, you know, I'm I'm seeing like, okay, give me some words, give me some stuff, and and let's see what flows. Let's make it real, you know. We have an end goal. We know, okay, it has to sit next to certain songs on the radio. But um, you know, we'll get there. You know, yeah, yeah, we'll we'll get there.
SPEAKER_02Trusting the process is probably a big part of that too. Of like, hey, let's just get comfortable, get some juju going in the pot.
SPEAKER_00Trusting our abilities, you know, as as artists, as producers, as songwriters, um, as engineers, it's it's trusting your ability that you're gonna, you know what to do, you know. And um, yeah, I was telling that to someone recently and said, well, you already know what to do. You just have to just you know go with it and and something cool will come out, you know. And um, I think, you know, I make it sound so easy by saying that because it's hard. You know, we we we do we do have our inner thoughts and our inner and our inner challenges that that could hinder those things. But it's always nice to be reminded that, you know, let's flow. And if today, if what we come up with today stinks, we'll do it tomorrow. It's it's not a failure. You know, that that that song that wasn't good led us to the song that's good. Right. You know, it we needed to go through that process. We needed to have those experiences the way that they were. You know, there's many songs that I've written with artists and for artists that we think we have it, and I'll listen to it the next day. I'm like, I need to change this, this, this, this, you know, these things. But I needed to have that basis to be able to know what I wanted to change and what what would make this better and what what would do the song justice and the artist justice. And and um I don't, you know, I don't like to belabor things to to the point where it's five years and you're still working on the same song. But I but it's also you you know when it sounds good. You have to trust that that those are, you know, those instincts are there and and we you know we can lean into them and use them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely. I think that is all very valid, and editing is a huge part of the process that I think gets overlooked when you talk about songwriting 'cause it's the dream is to just throw something on the page, oh it's magical, it's wonderful, it's a wonder, it's a hit, you know. But uh all that that is very important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I it's it's Sometimes it's a little easier for a producer because we can look at it from the lens of the overall picture and the goal as opposed to the emotional part of it. Right. And um being someone who is a songwriter and and and an artist, I could see those things of like, okay, we'll well, this is who this artist is. So we need to capture these moments. We need this particular particular emotion in there, or else it's not gonna be them. It's gonna be like we were talking earlier, like sterile. Like it just, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Or like keep that, we're keeping that ad lib, you know, all of those things where it's like the magic that happens. It's helpful to have a few people in the room to say, like, actually, that's the Easter egg of the whole song. This is actually what's gonna make it a hit, you know.
SPEAKER_00Like and then you start developing ideas off of that. And I think, you know, I was talking to some colleagues recently about AI, and they they've said, Well, what's your opinion on AI? And as I said, you know, it depends on how you use it, but what we just described, AI cannot do.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00It can learn what we finished, but it's it doesn't know the process of what we just talked about and and changing it it has its own way of doing things, but using the human element, the the the emotion, what we go through, you know, we could we could be writing a song and something could happen on the way to the studio that changes the whole experience and and the whole song of of you know what it's gonna be. Well, AI doesn't do that or predict that, you know. And it's it's you know, it has its gr it's amazing arts to it, but as far as like creating goes and and really having those amazing beautiful moments, it's you know, I think this is why we thrive as as artists and why we will continue to thrive as artists.
SPEAKER_02Humans must be involved. Uh this has been really amazing. I I want to close with a question just about advice. So, say you're talking to maybe yourself, you're you are still at that college age, you just got into music, you're excited about it, but don't exactly know maybe you don't know music theory, maybe you don't even fully know an instrument fluently. Like, what is your advice as a professional songwriter and engineer to someone who is getting started?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think I, you know, I I'm going to borrow the advice that was given to me, and it's be around people who are doing it. You know, absorb everything that you can learn and be open to learning and practice. You know, if you want to be an engineer, find someone who's in, you know, find a studio, you know, you know, intern and learn. Learn how to do it right. You know, we live in an age now where there's so many tools available to us. You can learn a lot on YouTube and you know, Instagram or TikTok or whatever, but you don't have it's it's not the same as being in the room with somebody. You know, and I think having those experiences are are amazing because it because of what we just talked about, where you experience the, you know, you know, you could learn, you could learn how to record something, but what if your preamp does? Like, how do you fix it on the fly? Like, you know, just different things like that where you can learn from people who have experienced that and you can be in the moment doing it. I learned so much being in the studio, and I learned my basics, you know, in in the in the classes that I took, but being in the studio and and experiencing it and practicing it and and thinking things out. And, you know, I would drive home and just think out like how can this situation be better and what can I do to make that you know, this guitar sound better or whatever, and being willing to get better, you know, and and accept the fact that you're not the best in the world. Yeah, you know, like those are those are always things that that um you know I've always tried to keep in mind. You know, I've had certain instruments that I've never recorded before. So it asked the the instrumentalist, how did you know other people record this? You know, oh they use this one. Oh, cool, great idea. Okay, you know, so um so things things like that, uh, you know, and and not not thinking that that you know everything.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And just being able to learn and accept and being kind and humble and and uh and work as hard as you possibly can because that's how you get successful at it, you know.
SPEAKER_02I think yeah. Like continuing your whole life to be a student, but also be willing to be the teacher to those and and pass it on. Yeah. That seems like a great, we should put that on a t-shirt for you. Robert, lifelong student, also teacher.
SPEAKER_00And I always feel like I'm a terrible teacher because you know, I'm like, how do I explain this to you? I think I can show you how I do it.
SPEAKER_01You know, maybe that'll help.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I think that's the that's what makes a good teacher is realizing that there's not one way. I mean, just think about the doll you use. Think about how you drive a car. Everybody, you know, one person might put their hand here, one person might. It's just like every each of us are unique, as you said, and different, and that's our strengths, but also being able to pick up on the nuggets of knowledge of like, oh, Robert used that mic, so I'm gonna use that mic because it worked. You know, we don't have to reinvent the wheel.
SPEAKER_00And it is, it is funny because when you get, you know, we're in an age where we could pass, you know, sessions uh between people. Sometimes I'll get sessions and I'll be like, I don't like how they did this. I don't like how they did this. And then I like, there must be a reason for it.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's pretty easy. That's pretty easy, oh maybe I'll use that again because it's not my typical workflow.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's it's like scary, you know, you know, when you get to that. But um but yeah, I I think I think it comes down to being a willing participant to make something great, you know, and and uh learn. You know, we're always learning.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us and taking the time to share some of your knowledge with our listeners and with me. And this has been really inspiring for me. Robert Ibach, you all, thank you so much for joining us and keep creating. Yeah. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for having me.