Pickleball Obsession
Pickleball advice and insight for recreational players who want to play better and understand the game. Hosted by obsessed amateur Tracie Hotchner, each episode delivers short, useful answers from certified pickleball pros that actually apply to your game.
Pickleball Obsession
Good Things Can Happen in the Transition Zone
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
#1019: Former tennis players were trained to think of the back third of the court as "no man's land" — a place to get stuck, trapped or pulverized by opponents. Coach Thomas Yelloweyes explains how in pickleball, you can embrace the "transition zone" as a place where you can make good things happen for yourself.
Welcome to Pickleball Obsession. Pickleball Obsession is the first podcast created just for recreational picklers because the more a rec player knows, the better they'll play. Do you watch pro pickleball on YouTube thinking it will help you, then wonder why your game doesn't look at all like Annalee's or Ben John's? Everybody on a pickleball court is obsessed to some degree. So the Pickleball Obsession podcast is for you whether you're a social player, out there just to have fun, or a competitive one trying to sharpen your skills and win more. This show will bring you short, useful advice from a variety of certified pickleball coaches that amateur players at any skill level can put right to use. I'm your host, Tracy Hotner. You might know me as the Pet Wellness Expert on NPR, Sirius, and my own pet podcast network, but here I'm no expert, just another admittedly obsessed player picking the brains of top coaches for advice we can all use. This show is brought to you in partnership with the IPTPA, the International Pickleball Teachers Professional Association, and with the Association of Pickleball Players, the APP Tournaments. Sign up at pickleballobsession.net for the weekly episodes with show notes and embrace the obsession. Thomas Yellow Eyes, Night Train Pickleball. You are the coolest guy because you've been doing this for a long time before anybody else was like the pickleball guru on the West Coast. But you know what's interesting to me, Thomas, is you didn't come from a racket sport. You were an extreme frisbee champion. Now, I mean, I can't even throw a frisbee, much less catch one, okay? So I can't even imagine what kind of hand-eye coordination or hand skills are required. But one of the things I wanted to talk to you about was the transition zone in pickleball. Because in tennis, which you didn't play, and many of us did, that was called, ooh, no man's land, don't be there, don't get stuck there, like it's the danger zone. But in pickleball, the transition zone it can be a very positive thing. When you're teaching your clinics and your students, how do you explain to them, whether they're beginners or intermediate or even advanced, what are the attributes of the transition zone that we should feel good about or not want to be there? When shouldn't we want to be there and when should we embrace it and go, this is so cool. I'm in this nice kind of gray area, the limbo between the baseline and the no volley zone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great question. And I and I think uh that thing, that the answer to that has evolved over the years of coaching because you know, my coaching in pickleball has been impacted by multiple different instructors, especially ones that I took lessons from prof uh personally. But here's what I've landed on. Here's here's where I am with this. One of the the issues we have, or good things you have, what however you want to look at it, is the the skill level ratings. Correct. And everybody, you know, we have this issue, if you will, of over self-rating, which is overrating ourselves to where we really are, or really compete well. Let me put it that way. And so I when I'm when I'm teaching a clinic or when I'm teaching players, I tell them this is the place that will help you get to the next level is how well you perform in the transition zone.
SPEAKER_00That's a great point.
SPEAKER_01Now, we have to look at it this way. So we start at the baseline, whether you're uh the serving team, whether you're the return team, and we have to we have to start working on what we call our kitchen arrival percentage or cap.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I like that.
SPEAKER_01And so our kitchen arrival percentage as a team, we want that to be higher. And only way to get that at high percentage is to be able to start really understanding and working our way through the transition zone. So it's either the transition zone, it's no man's land, or it's an opportunity zone. However, you want to look at it, it's what's going to determine you getting to 3-5, getting to 4-0, getting to 4-5, is how well you transition through that area and how much and how high you can get that cap or that kitchen arrival percentage.
SPEAKER_00Now, when you say I love this idea of kitchen arrival percentage, is that each individual on one side of the court or as a team, right?
SPEAKER_01As a team. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Today I was playing with someone who was pretty good at some of the shots. I'd never played with them before. So I serve, the ball comes back to me. Hello, mister. He is running in, running in across the middle as I'm receiving my return of serve. I blew it because I'm like, there's a there's a man running through this moment. I mean, that's not the bungee cord. So should we back up a little to the concept of the bungee cord that detaches the two people so that they're almost always as best as possible together? Is that part of the issue?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I have this uh rule when I'm teaching players uh, because we have to start at the very basic level and have to get some some fundamental things uh understood before we start uh adding any variety. Yes. And one of them is you go, I go, you stay, I stay.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01So whoever is hitting the third shot, once they hit that third, the other player is watching this player. And if they start going to the start making their way forward, you should start making your way forward. If they sit down and get ready for the next shot, you should sit down and get ready for the next shot. So the person who's hitting the ball is determining when they move. Now that's gonna happen. So one person may be hitting the third and get a few steps in, and the ball comes to the other person, and they're gonna hit the fifth, and now they're determining when to move. Yeah. So this is totally a team, you know, part of the communication. We're learning to play as a team and not as just uh, you know, rogue, whatever we want to do.
SPEAKER_00Right, like two people playing singles. I think that's one of the ways the transition zone can bite people in the fanny is that it makes this huge gap. One's up or on their way up, and the other one hasn't, and now there's this huge gap, and you just get burned and burned and burned, and you and somebody thinks, wow, the other people are great. But if you're on the side where you're separated from your teammate, you think we gave them that opportunity because the transition zone is a place that you need to work your way through. You don't blast your way through. I mean, you can once in a while. But isn't it a place where points are won or lost and people don't appreciate that enough?
SPEAKER_01It's absolutely that's where uh that's where the you know if you're leveling up or not is how well you're working your way through the transition zone. And it and it's really uh a confidence builder. You know, the days of C ball, hit ball. Yes, we have to start getting past that because that makes getting to the transition zone harder. So we have to start actually working on hitting shots and asking ourselves, when I hit the shot, what do I expect to happen? And when you start doing that, it starts making it a huge confidence builder as you work through the con through the uh transition zone. And also it's a confidence builder for your team because now your player, the player you're playing with, your partner can start trusting that you're not only gonna hit a good shot, you're gonna start making more of the right shot, make making more of the right choices through that. And I'm gonna tell you a lot of times that's just gonna be a drop. We're we're finding the kitchen, we're finding the uh no volley zone to safely move towards uh the you know the kitchen line or the no volley zone line.
SPEAKER_00So you have a teammate who not only drives the third shot, which is not always wrong, but it's there's a danger to it because the harder you hit it, the sooner and harder it could easily come back at either of you. So as you said, if you're gonna do that, you better be prepared for what's coming back. But if you're hitting a third shot drop, isn't the whole point of the third shot drop is to help you through this kind of valley of landmines, if you will, which is the transition zone. Otherwise, you're setting up the landmines yourself. If you can get yourself through it without being a target, without being a a person who can be hit and injured, right? I'm going to punish you for doing that. Then now you're up at the Novali zone. Now it's a whole nother set of questions and concerns. But it seems to me the transition zone is a place that people don't respect. They think, oh, that's just those two or three or four steps between the baseline and the kitchen. It doesn't really matter. I just got to get through it. It's almost like running through barbed wire.
SPEAKER_01Right. That's why the bounce is so important. You have to get the bounce in the no volley zone because you're forcing the team now to hit up on the ball instead of floating a ball and now they get to hit down. One of the hardest shots to defend is a ball that's at your feet. And the more you bounce the ball, the harder you make it for that team to hit the ball at your feet. And the more likely they're going to overhit it and hit it out, which then comes to the whole nother topic of outballs. But for but for our tense and purposes, they're um as long as you're forcing them to play it off the bounce, they they are going to be hitting up and they're it's going to make it harder to hit you in the feet.
SPEAKER_00So you hit it hard or even medium, but not as a drop. And now you've given them what sometimes is called a meatball, because it's uh anywhere above the net. So it's up. It's not at their feet. They can take it out of the air, at which point you're toast, no matter where you are. Right? I mean, even I mean, up at the kitchen, then you have a hand battle, you have a volley battle. But if you're in the transition zone, where's their best place to put it? At your feet.
SPEAKER_01No, I agreed, agreed. You know, a good drop really is the one that's that they catch below the net, whether and I said we wanted it to balance, that's always the goal. But if they're catching the ball out of the air, but it's below the net, that's still a good drop. That's still a shot that you can move forward on because they still have to hit up to get it back over the net. Uh, but you know, and again, it goes back to like that player that drives, you know, I I get these players in the in lessons in clinics sometimes, or even when I'm playing, um, and I see a coachable opportunity. I definitely one of the things I've learned in all of my years of playing is I don't coach, it's what I get paid to do. So I I don't coach, I just play and I let everybody play and do their thing. But uh, when the opportunity arises, whether it's in a lesson clinic or even on in a rec play, and somebody asks me, I I just simply say, Hey, what are you expecting to happen from that try? What are you wanting to happen? And when they answer, well, I'm just hitting it.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And uh I go, well, I think you have your answer. Thinking you're hitting this ball, and then you're not prepared for what's gonna come back. So when you start asking yourself, what am I expecting from this shot? It makes it so much easier to play the next ball or makes your team, at least your team can expect what the ball that's gonna come back and be playable. And of course, if it's a really good player, it may come back differently, but then you've learned something. Don't hit the drive to that person or right.
SPEAKER_00I think one of the things that is coming out a lot in doing pickleball obsession is all of you coaches are saying, what was your intention there? And what ball do you think will come back, or what ball are you hoping will come back because you're prepared for it? And I think most of us rec players were like, Well, I hit a really great shot. It's like what? It's not like a great shot in a vacuum. Which shot did you hit? When? Where? And what did you want to happen? A lot of times people I I don't know if this is true on the West Coast, but in the kind of capital district of New York, the number of people who just claim their 4-0, now maybe they played in the league, and maybe there was some duper thing that went on. God, I hate duper. And so they somehow, because they played in a 4-0 league and they didn't lose, now they're a 4-0 out of the blue, without any underpinning of knowing why they're doing what they're doing. So they come on the court in rec play and they just hit the ball, and they're not bangers per se, but they're hitting hard balls in the transition zone, for example, from the transition zone, without understanding that they put themselves and their partner in jeopardy. So, how do we get that idea across? Well, of course, we'd like them to take clinics and lessons or go to pickleball camp. We would. I mean, I think there's some great players who would actually know what they were doing and why they were really good if they took a few lessons. I mean, you've got you've got two accreditations. You're accredited by IPTPA, which is our partner now on Pickleball Obsession, which is a really exciting and and proud moment for me because they are the global standard in I think 67 countries. They're give their accrediting coaches. I mean, they're all over Malaysia, Asia. Uh you name the country. It's it's out there. And you're also PPR. So you've got you, you're that guy that says, I'm gonna get accredited by whoever will give me accreditation because I can learn something from it. Is that why you did it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, absolutely. So I think at the time when I got uh those um certifications, there were some places that accepted one but didn't accept the other. And so I got both of them to, and now they're kind of universal, which is great. I'm also a certified ratings instructor through IPTPA, and then I'm currently working on my duper uh rating certification as well. And the way I look at all those now is what is the ROI on this certification? If there isn't an ROI, then why am I doing it? Because the ones I have are already accepted. So why would I spend more money and then spend money each week to continue to up this one if it's not going to produce the ROI that's intended from that certification?
SPEAKER_00So what you've just explained is that even as a professional, you have a goal in what you're doing. Just like we as rec players, fun players, should have a goal in what we're doing. We should have an intention. We should look for an outcome. You can't just say, oh, I just hit the ball, or oh, I wanted to win the point. Well, you're not gonna probably win the point on the third shot. If you're playing against good people, you know, they say the better the players, a point should have a dozen shots, or I don't know how many. There's probably some magic number, but it's not three, right? I mean, that's a rare time where you have a put away, but it's rare. So I guess the idea of knowing what you're doing and why you're doing it mentally could be a little more challenging than just, hey, I'm gonna hit the ball, I'm gonna hit it harder, I'm gonna hit it that guy or this girl, or you know, there's no real plan to it. Once you get your brain engaged, I think it's what makes pickleball great. It is a chess match, right? A very fine chess match.
SPEAKER_01You know, when you're in that transition zone, um, I like to teach, and I and I'm actually gonna put out some videos uh soon.
SPEAKER_00Oh, good. We'll we'll link to them. We'd love to have them.
SPEAKER_01About the um when you're looking at a player and you go from the bottom of the foot to the knee, that's red. Yep. Uh from the knee to the hip, that's yellow, and then from hip above is green. And those are all zones. Yes. And all of those zones matter at different parts of the court. And in the transition zone, you know, if a ball is in the red zone, you should not be driving that ball. Thank you. If that ball is in the yellow zone, you know, it's very situational. But if there's any question, you should just be dropping if that ball is in the green, then yes, it's definitely something. But in that case, it's more about placement than it is power because the closer you start getting to the net, the harder it is to dig that ball out, the more they get it down.
SPEAKER_00Right. So just driving it isn't going to give you the same result as a wonderful low-angled like a d a drip, a drive.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Thomas Yellow Eyes, this is so great. I just want everyone to know that the transition zone is not no man's land. This is not tennis. Don't think of it that way. Embrace it, use it, and respect it. Thanks so much, Thomas. Look forward to talking to you again soon.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. I'm proud of our partnership with the APP, the Association of Pickleball Players, which provides world-class pickleball competitions for players of all ages and skill levels, professionals, amateurs, and recreational. I'm also grateful for our partnership with the IPTPA, which is the world leader in developing standards and certifying coaches across the world in dozens of countries and on every continent except Antarctica. I hope this show will get you up to the kitchen faster, dink with a purpose, and help you win paddle battles. Please subscribe on your favorite streaming platform and sign up at pickleballobsession.net to get the podcast and the show notes by email every week. Embrace the obsession.