Quit Hitting Out Balls!

#1023: Coach Thomas Yelloweyes in Oregon explains you're giving gifts to your opponents by hitting their balls that are going out. Tracie talks about how frustrating it is to have a partner who goes after every ball, hitting balls that are clearly going out when she thought their opponents had lost the point — but suddenly that out ball is coming right back to her!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Pickleball Obsession. This is the first podcast created just for recreational picklers with quick useful advice for amateur players from a variety of certified pickleball coaches. Whether you're a social player out there just to have fun or a competitive one trying to sharpen your skills and win more, the more you know, the better you'll play. I hope this show will get you up to the kitchen faster, dink with a purpose, and help you win paddle battles. I'm your host, Tracy Hotner. You might know me as the pet wellness expert on NPR Sirius and my own pet podcast network, but here I'm no expert, just another admittedly obsessed player picking the brains of top coaches for advice we can all use. This show is brought to you in partnership with the IPTPA, the International Pickleball Teachers Professional Association, and the Association of Pickleball Players, the APP Tournaments. Sign up at pickleballobsession.net for the weekly episodes of the podcast, along with bonus content. Embrace the obsession. Thomas Yellow Eyes, I have the most fun topic to discuss with you. Outballs. What is it with people hitting outballs? I'm not talking about ones that, oh, that landed a quarter of an inch near the line. I'm talking about really outballs. What is this thing where people think, oh, I'll just hit everything? What the heck? I'm here anyway. And this thing flies past their head or way out to the wings. What is up with that? I mean, don't they understand that those are free points? Not free. You've done something to make the person hit out or they don't have good skills. And you just gave them a point and made them think, yeah, I'm really cool. So how do we how do we convince people not to hit outballs?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

You know, this one was a really hard one for me. It it took a long time to get to a point where I would not, and I even to this day, there are a few times I'm hitting an outball that after I hit it, I'm like, oh, that one was clearly out. Um I think part of it is is in the moment, right? Part of it is you're you're in the moment, but I it but a lot of it is um it's practice, it's a skill, and it's one of those that you have to um start working on. It's it's one of those deals where when you start at the baseline, an outball looks different. When you go to the kitchen, an outball looks completely different. In the transition zone, it looks completely different. So it's it's not like the outball looks the same a lot of times that it does in different parts of the court. Now, when you're that being said, one of the things that has really helped me is knowing the zones, knowing where the red zone is, where the yellow zone is, and where the green zone is, and then also understanding that when I'm at the kitchen line or the Novali zone line, that anything to, you know, depending off on the right side player, anything to my right coming cross court is out, left side player, anything cut coming cross-court to my left side is out. And so though those are things that you've had to learn. And I think we'll this one huge thing I teach in the weekly sessions is you know, we'll purposely have a player work on hitting an outball.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Oh, interesting. I mean, hitting creating an outball or hitting one that is going out.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Every time they get an opportunity, they're gonna attack a spot that they know is going to be an outball, and we're gonna start getting players used to seeing what that looks like. You know, say you've got a player on the opposite side that's on the left, and then the player, they're gonna attack the opposing player on the left side you know, so it's cross-court. Right. They're gonna hit a ball bounces up, they're gonna hit off the bounce cross-court to the left side of the player, and we know 98% of the time that ball is out. But what we want to do is we're gonna hit it a few times and they're gonna they're gonna hit it, they're gonna try to hit it. And then what we do is we hit it a few times where they can see that it actually is really far out. And then what they do is they start getting used to seeing that ball. And then we we move it over. We move it over just enough that now it stays in, and now they can actually see where they should be defending on the court. When the ball goes over here, I only need to be here and here.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Right. That's a really great point. You don't have to go all the way over down the the at the what would be the alley in tennis to the outside line to defend a cross-court bowl. In fact, don't do that because you'll be tempted to hit it. It's probably going to go out. But if you're there, you're like, well, it's in the moment, as you said, and you're like, well, I'm here anyway. And then afterwards, your partner says, Oh man, that was out. And you're like, oh, like it's a surprise, but it's because the angle that it came at. Now we're talking about when you're up at the kitchen, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Yeah, it for the most part, yes. Yeah. But when you're in the transition zone, that's when that starts happening a lot more. When you're at the baseline, then you pretty much got to play any ball that is that's coming almost any direction that's going back there because unless it's high, right? But if you get closer to the kitchen line, the those angled shots become more and more likely being out. And what we want to do is we want to start introducing you to what that shot, like how good a shot has to be to be hit cross court and land in.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yes. And and what speed and what power, because if it's fast and hard, it has a much less chance staying in.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Well, the the other thing we have to understand is do you play somebody who hits a lot of top spin? Because the top purpose of the top spin is being able to hit a ball with more pace and still keep it in.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

If you're playing a player that has a lot of top spin, then say they hit really good top spin with their forehand, but they don't hit that well with their backhand. Well, I'm not gonna give you a ball to your forehand to be able to hit a shot that now I have to think about playing right for it.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Because you don't want to feel like an idiot who lets it go purposely, like, yeah, that's gonna be out, because it's very wide and on an angle, but because of their skill level and their style, it's absolutely in, solidly in. Then you feel like a jerk yourself, letting go a ball that you're like, oh, I think that'll probably be out. I mean, it's in the moment you're playing sometimes some kind of odds. I had a pro say to me once, especially when you're at the kitchen, and a ball's flying kind of past your face or betwi, like near your neck, let's say. Okay, so not totally the top of your head, which would pretty much surely be out, but let's say your shoulder and neck area. And he said to me, and I wonder what you think about this, it was Taylor Cobb. He said, You gotta let some of them go. You gotta duck to the side, let some of them go out, find out how this person's hitting. And if it went out, now you haven't given them encouragement or self-confidence to thinking that the shot that so many of the people they play against hit that shot back. What do you think about letting some go out as an experiment, if you will, to test the water?

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Absolutely. I I encourage that. I actually, you know, that old saying, or I guess it's old if pickleball's old, is chest high, let it fly in, and then you just test it, you know, you just let it go, and then eventually you you you will start getting a really good feel of the ball um that goes out and a ball that stays in. And then you also will notice the pace of that ball, you know, because some of them that are that high, if they hit it really slow, then obviously it's gonna land in. So you start testing that, right? And so that we have a saying for that. And it's one of the my best jokes that I tell during a new clinic is um, you know, it's the first sickness in pickleball that they've diagnosed in. Um they could ever get a psychologist, a sports psychologist to figure out how to die how to cure this, it would be great. And that is what we call a banger enabler. Oh, interesting. So a banger, you know, hit a ball and most of them are going to be out, but you continue to hit that ball regardless, right? Enabling this person. So we call you a banger enabler. And so so we get them laugh and we get them going, and so then somebody hits a ball that's out and they hit it. And I go, What are you doing over there, Julie? She goes, I'm enabling. And I'm going, Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Yeah, and that's what you find out. So you got your own self to be responsible for. Okay. So you have to have first of all, I just want to say something else about chest high and head high and neck high. It has something to do with your height, right? So I play with a lot of guys that are six foot and and change. I mean, if a ball's anywhere near their shoulder, it's going out and they'll hit stuff above their head just because they can, and they can hit a put away. They're good, they've got a great snap of their overhead. So that's almost like enabling something different. You're hitting it because you really love the feeling. Now, if you're playing against good people, they can defend that ball.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

So it's not, it's not a point ender, but there are people that will hit those high balls because it feels good to them. What about that? What where where's that in the psychological diagram?

SPEAKER_00 9:26

So, so first thing I will say is you notice players that hit a lot of outballs are standing straight up and down, right? Not in the ready position, and then the closer to the net you get, the low the the more in the ready position. I don't want to say lower, but the more in the ready position you should be, which also means that you're lower at the court. Which also means that ball that was at your head is now over your head.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

It becomes a lot easier to determine what an outball looks like. But if you're standing straight up and down, especially in the no in the Novali or in the uh transition zone, it becomes very difficult to determine if a ball is in or out. But if you continually stay in that ready position, you know, your your levels of the red, yellow, and green, they get smaller, which means that it's easier to determine the height of that ball and if a ball is in or out. So there's there's a lot of different things that need to come into play if you're if you're gonna start learning to let an outball go. Yes. And uh it all all comes back to that ready position, you know, in your footwork. And uh, and then once you start understanding that, then when you get to the kitchen, it becomes a lot easier because a kitchen a lot of times is so I see the kitchen is the second um place that a lot of players will hit the outball, but the number one place I see players hit a lot of outballs is in the transition zone. Because it's just they they they're having a hard time gauging. I'm in the middle of the court, that ball could be in, it could be out. But if you're down and you're ready, all of a sudden it becomes an outball.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Because you're because there's no way it's not gonna fly past your head. Right. What about playing with somebody who is a little bit blind about outballs? I've had to work really hard to develop a better eye. I can't say mine is out of this world, great, but boy, I used to I would just be like shrugging. Uh really that was gonna be out. I I was you know mortified. But I play with guys who will run back for some sort of a lobbed type ball. And and I'm thinking, what? That thing's a foot or more out. Why are you running? And they really didn't know. How how can that be possible?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

So anytime a ball goes up, I will be running back. Oh, you will, but I I can determine, and then of course there's partner communication, the partner saying that's out. So uh, but I playing at the level I play, I I can't assume every ball is out. No, you can't here's here's one thing I have I teach my players is you should always start play the ball, should always play the ball. Okay. A lot of times a player misses a ball is because they saw the ball go up and they made the assumption that it was out and they never ran for it. So when the ball lands in, there's no chance of them ever getting it. So there's good practice anyway to just be ready to play the ball, but you're also gonna find that you're in very good position to make that call. Now you're not looking across the court or looking back behind you, trying to determine a call when you're really more on top of it and you can see where that ball's landing.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Yeah, because if you are really sportsmanlike and you can't say for sure it was out, you have to call the ball in. Now I wish more people did that. They shrug like, let's go to the net and have a big conversation. No, Huns, if you can't say that ball was out, it was in. That's a thing that that's another topic for another day. But you're right, if you're closer to the ball and you're right there, then it, you know, often the people that hit it go, but that was in. No, actually, I was right here, and that was definitely out because I was right there. What do you do? My my last question about outball hitting. What do you do if you do have a partner? We're not talking about a constant partner that you do tournaments with and you know each other inside out. Just rec play. Random people, you're constantly playing with all these different people. And you've got someone who's hitting an outball. And for me, it's very disconcerting because I absolutely knew the ball was going out. This was not a, you know, uh a hum and a haw. This was out. Now, he has played the ball. Now, I am not really ready and prepared for what comes back because I thought, well, that was our point. They hit the ball out. What do you do about that? I mean, it's really, and then I mean, I'm frustrated with the partner. I don't say anything. I mean, they hit it because they wanted to or they didn't know any better. But what about me? What about the person who's alongside the the out hitter? What do you how do you how do you deal with that confusion?

SPEAKER_00 14:21

So I think the big thing to understand uh from my experience is there's no changes that are gonna happen in that game, and probably not in that moment, in the in that right state, even it's one of those things you're gonna have to practice. So I go from, yeah, they're gonna hit the outball. So maybe I can give them a suggestion of, hey, when you hit that outball, can you just reset it? Can you put it over here? Can you what what can you do with this ball that would be more effective? And then after we're gonna talk about, hey, listen, that that was an outball, right? And then I get their feedback on why they're hitting it. A lot of people are playing in their you know, with their their central nervous system, they're um they get in the high the fight or flight response. Yes, and when that happens, you're not talking anybody out of something. They're they're just there, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:13

No, let me let me be clear. I don't say anything at all because back in the day when I was taking, I still take lessons, I still take clinics. I'm going to pickleball camp, you know, soon, well, at the end of the summer, because I love to learn and I like and I'm and I like to learn in settings that I know I'll get something out of. But early on, when I was being filled, like I was like a vessel filled with information, I would think I was doing partners a favor. Oh yeah, you know, that's X or it's Y. Not you should have done this or you did it wrong. It's just like, oh yeah, that's really cool. When they do that, we should do that. Nobody liked it, Thomas. Nobody wanted comments, nobody was interested in what I'd learned. And that's something that in one clinic I was told by the pros, do not go back to rec play and repeat anything you've learned here. Keep it inside. It's your private information. You have to learn how to deal with it all by your lonesome, because people don't want to hear. First of all, they're in fight or flight, as you said, or they're amped up. It's just, you know, pure adrenaline. And they're nearly not interested in doing it right in that moment, or maybe ever. It just isn't on their radar. Oh, a more a better way to do that would have been X. They don't want to, then they're not interested in hearing that, especially if you've lost the point. But often if you've won the point and the ball was out, I'll just say, was that going out? Because I really want to get better at knowing. And they generally say, I don't know. So that's not really helpful. I mean, I think we we should all identify. Sometimes there'll be a guy who goes, Yeah, but I really had a good time, because they have put it away. And I'm like, good for you. I mean, if you hit an outball and win the point off it, I guess you can't really gripe. Although the problem is with the people who are hitting outballs, it encourages them to be the banger slammer, and they play against banger slammers who want to hit everything. So they all think they're playing great pickleball, and you just don't see pros hitting out balls.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

It's it's the you know, we're enabling the other player, teaching them that that's a great shot. And and a lot of those players are their that's their their endorphin. Yes. When they hit that hit that ball, right? Yes. And the other thing I I understand is a lot of the players when I'm playing in rec play, they're coming from work and they've been sitting behind the desk for eight or nine hours, and they're just ready to step on the court and hit the ball. It's like their free uh counseling session. Sometimes you just gotta let them hit the ball and go, okay, this one, we're just gonna rack this one up as a win or lose, however it plays out, and and eventually you'll find yourself with somebody who's a little more dialed in, and it ends up being a good game. But you just that's what I understand when I get players. They're they're just gonna hit an outball because they need that endorphin rush because they've been zombie mode for eight or nine hours today.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

That's a really great point. You just have to let people get their yah yas out. Right. And if that's how they get them out, they get them out. But if you find you're playing with someone who's hitting outballs, you're not gonna help them understand it, it's not your job to help them understand that it was out or what to do next time. But you do have to be ready for a ball to come back that you thought point over, but in fact, the point is still on because an outball. Okay. So so I the the short people that are up at the kitchen are in a more ready position than the tall ones because they're already much lower to the net. So they should be better at letting an outball fly than a taller person or someone standing too erect without their knees bent, right? Absolutely. Okay. All right. So those are the red balls, people. Those are the red ones that you should not hit. Thank you so much, Thomas Yellow Eyes. Look forward to talking to you again soon. Outstanding. Thank you. Thanks for listening. I hope you've enjoyed it, and I'm proud of our partnership with the APP, the Association of Pickleball Players, which provides world-class pickleball competitions for professionals and recreational players. I'm also grateful for our partnership with the IPTPA, which is the world leader in developing standards and certifying coaches across the world. If you subscribe on Apple or Spotify, please also sign up at pickleballobsession.net to get the weekly email with the podcast and bonus content. Embrace the obsession.