Pickleball Obsession
Pickleball advice and insight for recreational players who want to play better and understand the game. Hosted by obsessed amateur Tracie Hotchner, each episode delivers short, useful answers from certified pickleball pros that actually apply to your game.
Pickleball Obsession
When, How & Why is Stacking a Good Idea?
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#1027: Master Pro and former pro competitor Lisa Palcic explains why two right-handed players almost always stack in mixed doubles on the pro circuit (no matter how good the female player is). But when, why and how stacking might make sense for amateurs in rec play or tournaments is another story.
Welcome to Pickleball Obsession. This is the first podcast created just for recreational picklers with quick useful advice for amateur players from a variety of certified pickleball coaches. Whether you're a social player out there just to have fun or a competitive one trying to sharpen your skills and win more, the more you know, the better you'll play. I hope this show will get you up to the kitchen faster, dink with a purpose, and help you win paddle battles. I'm your host, Tracy Hotchner. You might know me as the pet wellness expert on NPR Sirius and my own pet podcast network, but here I'm no expert, just another admittedly obsessed player picking the brains of top coaches for advice we can all use. This show is brought to you in partnership with the IPTPA, the International Pickleball Teachers Professional Association, and the Association of Pickleball Players, the APP Tournaments. Sign up at pickleballobsession.net for the weekly episodes of the podcast, along with bonus content. Embrace the obsession. Lisa Palsick. Lucky me, I got to spend two days having privates and clinics with her and her ratings. Woo! That's very demanding. The IPTPA, of which she is one of the headliners and the inventor, in a sense, of the ratings system. Those of you going around thinking that you duper score that came from the last two, I don't know, leagues you were in, that really doesn't count compared to the IPTA rating, does it, Lisa? You make people do a lot of different skills multiple times in a row and they have to do seven out of ten of all of them, pretty much.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it just depends on what level we're testing. So that percentage is going to go higher the higher the level we're rating. So like if you were going for a 4-0 rating test, that percentage is going to go up to 80%. And then the other thing is the different tests, so like for 3-0 and 3-5 level, the feeds are going to be simple feeds to your strike zone. But once you get to the 4-0 and 4-5 test, now we add top spin, slice, and pace on the ball, not always in your strike zone, so that it's more realistic based off of the level that you're playing at.
SPEAKER_01Which also tells us that the pro who's feeding has to be really skilled and precise yourself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so we have we have two levels of certification for the ratings, and that I mean, uh, to to be a certified rating specialist. Right. The first one is that you can rate 3-5 and below. And then if you want to be able to rate 4-0 and above, you have to take a feeding test so that you can, you know, we can be sure that that is how you're feeding.
SPEAKER_01So you're actually giving what's needed. Well, so I came back thrilled and delighted with my eyes kind of spinning in my head. Okay, there's so many Lisa-specific advice ideas that I've only had like a little hint of in previous clinics and camps and teaching. So I really do say to everyone again, the complete illustrated guide to pickleball by Lisa Pelsick, it's quite amazing. It's a little like the Encyclopedia Britannica, if you are pickleball obsessed. You open it thinking, I want to look up stacking, which is what we're going to talk about today. Stacking, when you do it, how you do it, why you do it. And then while you're looking for stacking, you come upon other ideas like, oh yeah, I want to know about this too. So the book is really um a smorgasbord of advice and ideas. So I'm about to play in a above-my head level of a tournament. It everybody in it is 4.5, and they're guys, which puts me at a double disadvantage because you just rated me at 4.0. So I'm so proud and pleased. But the difference between 4.0 and 4.5 is uh, yeah, it's it's an order of magnitude. So I need to have the best chance I can for my very nice partner, Sachary, who is 4'5 and physically very powerful, to use his power to our best advantage. When I look at Pro Pickleball and I see the very best women players in the world stacking with a male, I'm like, wait a minute, that's Annalie. Why does she have to stack? Well, guys, I think it's because of testosterone. They got more upper body strength, more muscle strength. And I don't know, is that the main reason with a right-handed person to stack?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so if it obviously, if you were two right-handed players, the reason why you'd be stacking is because you really want to highlight the stronger player. And by stacking, that puts that stronger player's strength in the middle of the court all the time, right? So so that they are going to play more balls. They're going to play more balls with their forehand and they're going to be able to take over the court a little bit more. Now, when you do it lefty righty, obviously you're doing that because you don't want to have two backhands up the middle. So when you stack with lefty righty, it's simply because it's not that one player is stronger than the other. It's just that having two backhands up the middle during a point is going to cause that team to be weaker. Unless, of course, you know, both players, their backhand is their strong suit, and then and then maybe you wouldn't stack. But then there'd be a huge one. Each case is different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. If both of them had this a stronger backhand than forehand, that would be kind of interesting too. Um but probably a little unlikely. So when we say, let's just talk for a minute what you mean by stronger player, because Zachary uh I think could play rugby easily. He's a big, strong man with huge muscles. And I'm pretty strong for a female of my age, but it would never compare with a male physical strength. Right. But you don't mean only physical strength, do you?
SPEAKER_02No, no, no. I mean, I mean, you know, level-wise, is there a player that is, you know, a level above of the other one? Or is there a player that has better skills than the other, especially up at the net? So, like, let's say that you are playing with this guy who is taller, is stronger, and maybe has faster hands at the net. For sure. He's younger, right? Whatever. All of the above. Yeah. So by stacking, that's just gonna allow him to take over the middle a little bit more.
SPEAKER_01And if he's someone who was already um predisposed to poach, and I don't mean poach in a negative sense at all, but to move over and take both that he could get to easily and put away, him having his forehand in the middle would be giving him even more incentive or ability to do that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yep. So stacking and stacking can be done in a few different ways. If you learn if you're listening to this podcast and you're not familiar with stacking, because a lot of lower level players, they might have heard of it, they might not have heard of it, they might have heard of it, but they don't understand either why you do it or how you do it, right? So typically I do not recommend stacking at you know the lower levels. Now, some 3-5 players might be able to handle stacking, but I really recommend it for the 4.0 level and above because you have to be able to, you know, shift and cover court in a particular sort of way so that you know you know exactly what's going to happen because of the stack. So, what does stacking mean? Stacking means that, and stacking can be done in two ways. It can be done on on the serve side, and it can also be done on the return side. You see stacking mostly on the serving side, not always on the return side, because it's a little bit more difficult movement on the return side.
SPEAKER_01And confusing. So you too. Yeah, exactly. I I'm pretty comfortable with stacking when I'm serving or my partner's serving. I get a little scramble-brained when I have to stand outside the court and jump in the kitchen line for the return. So let's just talk about it for the serve. Because kind of the meat and potatoes of stacking.
SPEAKER_02Right. So, so let's talk about it if we had a lefty-righty pair first, just so that that makes a little bit more sense for people. So, now let's say that all right, so let me just get my bearings here.
SPEAKER_01So let's serve first because his or her forehand is in the middle at that point. So he would he or she would serve from the right first at the beginning of the game.
SPEAKER_02Right. Now, now let's say that you know the score ends up so that that the lefty player is on the other side, right? So now that's putting the two backhands up the middle. So what we would do is we would take the other player and we would have them stand just off to the other side on that same person's side of the court while they're serving. And then after that person serves, they're gonna slide over to where you would have been. So so basically, yeah. So basically it's you're serving where you're supposed to be serving from, but right after the serve happens, you're gonna slide over to the other side of the court so that that puts the two forehands up the middle of the court. Then you're gonna play out the remainder of that point in those positions. Now, when you go back to serve again, you can figure it out just by okay, where's our forehands, right? Where's our backhands? And so half the time you're gonna be in your correct positions when serving, and half the time you're gonna be standing to the side of the person that's serving so that the forehands end up in the middle of the court.
SPEAKER_01Right now, um, one of the things, of course, that people the reason that it's useful or dangerous is that it is confusing to the receiving team. Now they could be very sophisticated and play against stackers all the time, but for the most part, they often don't seem to know which of them will be receiving the serve because suddenly both of us, let's say I'm the on the stacking team, we're on the same side of the court. So they're like, Well, which one of them is serving? Whose serve is it? And they go, Oh, okay, and they back up, I guess I'm receiving now. So you've already got them a little mentally defensive. That's valuable, isn't it? Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02And then, you know, having them try to figure out, okay, wait, why are they doing that? Right. Is there something that I should be exploiting or is there something that I should be avoiding?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Is that why they're doing that? And then you have them in their head now thinking, okay, now where do I want to hit that ball based off of where they're going to go and where they're going to be? And sometimes they can't think that quickly as to wait a minute, now where did the backhands go? Right.
SPEAKER_01Right, right.
SPEAKER_02Now, of course, advanced players are absolutely going to be able to figure that out. And they know what, you know, set plays work best against stacking, how to still keep it away from the strengths, right? Because they know where the backhands are going to be. But lower level players, you know, something looks different, something feels different. Wait, how how am I, you know, why? How is this happening? How do I react to it?
SPEAKER_01Or even not lower level skill, but because they haven't tried this, I've found an open play. Right. Even when play with lefty, you go, Oh, you're a lefty, great, let's stack. Two out of three, three out of four say to me, Oh, I don't stack. I'm like, but you're leaving money on the table. Why wouldn't you? Yeah. And they say, now I'll tell you why you're confused about the score. I'm like, don't worry, I can keep the score. But they they get scramble-brained.
SPEAKER_02Right. Because you have to then be able to, once you have started stacking with serving, let's say that you stacked on a serve, right? And then you play out the point in each other's positions. Now, where it gets confusing is when it's side out and the ball goes to the other side of the court. Now you have to figure out wait, where am I supposed to be to receive? So that's where the confusion comes in for the people stacking. So somebody that at least one of you has to understand where each of you should be standing based off of what the score is, you know, and the fact that, okay, we just stacked, so we were in each other's positions. So now I have to go back to my side of the court to be the one receiving that initial serve.
SPEAKER_01But isn't the score the thing that tells you? So you know that when it's when your number is odd, let's say it's there you're serving at 3-0 and now you lose the point, so it's side out. If you know you're always going to be on the left when it's odd, or vice versa, always on the right when it's odd, then you just go to the place you should be for an odd or even score for your team, regardless of the overall score. Isn't that the easiest way?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that is the easiest way, but some people just cannot understand that concept. It's it's funny because, like, you know, so we uh initially when we started this conversation, we were talking about the rating system, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02Now, in in the rating system, we not only test people's skills, but we also do something called ghost doubles. Now we call it ghost doubles, not skinny singles, only because we want you to play it as if you were playing doubles. We want you to come into the net and play shots just like you would have to be.
SPEAKER_01And I said, Is it skinny singles? And you said kind of it's ghost doubles. And I came in just because I don't know why. That was just my instinct.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so in that instance, that's why we call it that, because we want you to be simulating doubles. But the funny thing is, is that now you only have two players on the court and you're like, okay, no, you can't be on that side because your score is odd. So you need to be on the left side. No, you have to be on the right side. And it's funny, you can tell players that all day long, and they still are like, wait, where am I supposed to stand? Isn't that true? And I'm like, Well, your score is three, so you would be on the left side, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, what's curious is when people are confused about the score or who was the first server, how many times in rec play do we see people of any level going, I don't know, I think I was the first server. Who served first? Oh, then my then my score should be even, or I was the second one.
SPEAKER_02That's why they in tournaments often yeah, so like I don't know if they they still do this in every tournament, but um, you know, when I was still playing at the 5-0 and pro level, a lot of times tournaments would hand out a server band that you would have to wear on your own. Yeah, because that also helps the referee to remember who the first server was. Now the referee has a sheet of paper in front of them that tells them exactly who the first server is, but it's also to help the players to remember, yes, I was the first server, I have this band on. So then I know that you know, I'm supposed to be on this side for this score, right? So that's what that serving band helps me.
SPEAKER_01I think that the that the lower maths number, meaning numbers one through 11, that somehow that is daunting to people because yeah, it to me, an even and an odd score feel different to me, physically, even. I like even numbers, I hate odd numbers. So I'm always gonna be aware of when I'm on that ooh, that you know, that odd number side. That's I mean that's a personal peculiarity. So here's a question about the sliding over. When you said at the higher level, so we're talking about these guys that are gonna, you know, uh they're gonna target me all day long. Right. As in this particular scenario of 4.5 or 4.0 to 4.5, but some of the 4.5s are higher than a 4.5. It's a charity thing for Parkinson's. That's why I'm doing it for fun. But they're gonna be targeting me. If I'm the one sliding over when Sachary is going to be serving so that his forehand remains in the middle, in the moment that I they often hit back to the person who's moving, but particularly the so-called weaker player when moving back into position. What do we do if we're stacking to, and I'm quick enough to get there, but you are a little off balance.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's actually that's how you beat a stacking team, right? If you have someone that isn't moving efficiently to where they need to be moving to, one, you can either hit behind them, or two, you can go up the line where they're trying to, you know, get to to cover. Yeah, so you have to kind of assess, okay, how do I beat this stacking team, right? So there, you know, there's several ways. And you know, sometimes maybe you want to uh hit a short angle off to the side that they're supposed to be sliding over to, right? So there's all different kinds of strategies that you can use to try to beat a stack, right?
SPEAKER_01Okay, so I'm the one stacking in my in my feeling of somewhat vulnerability. What do I do to anticipate those clever guys for go from for going after me? Not in general, just in this moment of rearranging myself on the baseline.
SPEAKER_02Right. And you have to assume that they are going to hit to you because they realize that you're stacking because your partner is stronger, right? So just be ultra ready for that next ball to come to you, right? Like if you knew that next ball was coming to you, then you'd you'd be a little bit more prepared for it. So just always have that mindset that I'm pretty sure this next ball is going to come to me. So I have to really focus on the ball coming off my opponent's paddle. And I also, when I'm sliding over, as I'm sliding over, I have to be looking at the person that's hitting the shot so that I can kind of catch to see where it is that they're gonna direct that ball. So you're not only sliding into position, but you're also trying to watch the shot coming off of your opponent's paddle.
SPEAKER_01That's gonna tell you the angle it's gonna come, probably to you. Now, if his forehand is wound up in the middle in that moment and they haven't gone far enough wide, he could potentially, my strong stacking partner could potentially cut off the return of serve or never.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the stronger the player, the more they're gonna be able to cover just about anything back there, right? Yeah, so yeah, so you usually you don't have to worry about that. Like at high-level play, you know, players move very efficiently, and and even if they hit to the other person, the other person is still strong. Yeah, it might just be that, okay, well, I've got to hit a backhand here. But the, you know, at the 5-0 and pro levels, that's not a problem, right? Right.
SPEAKER_01So but we're not we're really not talking about that. That's the the high ether, that's the the mountain top you were up on.
SPEAKER_02We're talking about lower levels now. When I would not recommend stacking, if you have mobility issues, or if your brain doesn't work fast enough to figure out, okay, now hold on a second. I'm not used to this. I I I don't like being confused, I don't like moving when my opponent is just about to hit the ball, right? If you can't handle those scenarios, don't stack. Right. On the other hand Because it's just gonna end up hurting you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then you're gonna feel inadequate and like a dope, and you start doing that whole self-recrimination. Because there's two lefties that I play with, one is my coach Taylor Cobb, who I've worked with a bunch, and a guy that I play with in rec play, who's a lefty. We both stack in in a most remarkable way that we even though both forehands are in the middle with a lefty, you would think that would create some of that confusion, whose ball is it? When it comes, it doesn't. We're so clear about it. And why is that? It's better than with a righty.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I think you know, as long as you understand the concept of following your shot so that you're in the right place ahead of time, right? So, so depending on which one of you hits the shot, if you're the one that hits it and you hit it cross court, you slide to the middle. So if the ball comes up the middle and you have two forehands, it's your ball because you hit diagonally, right? Right now, if if your partner is the one that hits diagonally, they're the one that slides toward the middle and they are the middle cover. Now, how it works if there's a ball that comes from the middle directly up the middle, when you're stacking and you have two forehands up the middle, the stronger player should take it.
SPEAKER_01That should be the rule of thumb. Anything, anything in the middle where it looks like it could be yours or mine, it's yours. That's again that's the same thing. Yeah, and you want to you want, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and I mean, most players that play together all the time will already know that. But if we're talking, you know, you got paired up with someone in a tournament, you know, so you you can have that discussion ahead of time. Hey, you know, obviously we're gonna know whose ball it is when it's coming from an angle, but when that ball comes up the middle, I'm gonna defer to you.
SPEAKER_01Perfect. And it's good to verbalize it. You talk about that a lot in the book. Communicate, talk beforehand, not only in the moment. What's the worst thing is to say to somebody afterwards, oh sorry, I thought it was mine, or gee, I thought you were gonna take it, as opposed to make a plan ahead of time. There's no harm in that.
SPEAKER_02Right. And I am a huge advocate of always communicating when the ball's going up the middle. Even if you're a set partner, you know exactly who's gonna take it, whatever. The yours and mine is still super helpful because it gives the the person that's gonna hit it confidence, right? Yeah, so like if I say mine and I go to take it, I'm really clear that you know I'm taking it, and then you're gonna stay ready and focused forward to the other side of the court. You don't have to look at me and second guess whether or not I'm gonna take it. Yeah, right now, in rec play, that is how you can teach your partner whose middle it should be without having to teach your partner whose middle it should be. So if you understand court positioning and following your shot, and you understand that when the ball's diagonal to you, even if it's your backhand, it's your middle, you have to say mine early and ahead of time so that they don't reach in and try to take it, right?
SPEAKER_01And you don't both wind up just apologizing, and all that matters is you lost the point unnecessarily. It was an unfortunate error all day long.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and most rec players both want to camp out in the middle of the court, and so oftentimes hitting middle is good because either both of them go for it or nobody goes for it, or one of them starts to go for it and then the other one does, and then they both flinch. Yes, so their shot isn't as good. So that's why you know, teams that are playing that don't follow their shot to be in the right place proactively, they're an easy team to beat because typically the middle's crowded and the alleys are open, right? But obviously, that you know, that's not in our stacking conversation, but it's a very important conversation when we talk about court positioning. And and really truly, I tell my players you know, no matter what level you are, if you're in the right place at the right time ahead of time, based off of the ball that you or your partner just hit, you're gonna feel more ready, you're gonna have more time to hit your shot, you're gonna have more time to put your ball in the perfect strike zone to hit it, you're gonna be able To see, you know, what's going on with the opponents, if you're not in the right place ahead of time, you're having to move to the shot as it's coming, and then your footwork is slower, your your strike zone is worse, and that's when we rush and we just don't have a plan and we just hit it because we barely got to it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. And it's something faintly wild. I do think it has to do with stacking because when you're talking about the more powerful player having the forehand in the middle at all times, sure, you have to understand that person, the middle is his or hers, they own it. Only if it comes really at a different angle.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, unless it's coming from an angle. Yeah. That is the angle. So it if they happen to be, you know, the person that has to cover the line because of where the ball is, then yes, that that person that has the backhand would have to come over, or the person that if you're stacking and you're both, you know, uh um a lefty, lefty, righty, righty, whatever it is, but you're stacking because of power, then you want to defer to that player anytime it comes up the middle to the middle. And then if they can poach and put the ball away, they can take anything they want. But if it's just basically to hit a setup shot, then you're gonna want the partner to take it just so that you stay in position for the next shot.
SPEAKER_01So that you're covering your other side of your side, so to speak. Yep. And I guess the other thing you say in your book is that the in stacking, that the more powerful player covers about three-quarters of the court. Now that is what Sachary does, and I thought, well, he's just a very bold poacher, but that's not poaching. From what you're saying, if you're doing this stacking and one person is demonstrably more powerful, more skilled, a higher skill level, that person actually owns three-quarters of the court.
SPEAKER_02So Well, and and just here's the reality of it. Like, okay, so anytime the ball comes up the middle, you're gonna let that strength take it, right? Yes, so that's gonna defer to them. Anytime the ball is diagonal to them, they're gonna take the middle. So, so in two of the three instances, they are playing the middle of the court, right? And it's their responsibility to cover the middle, right? So, in that case, yes, they are going to hit more balls up the middle of the court than you are.
SPEAKER_01But they're also welcome, or I should encourage, or be I am always delighted if he does it well for him to come over to my half at the end.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, now here's the thing if somebody overplays, they just have to make sure that wherever they hit the shot, that it's not gonna put you guys out of position. Right, right. So let's say that he comes and way overplays to your side, but then he hits a diagonal ball, which leaves his line open, that's not gonna work for you guys if he didn't hit a winner, right? So that's the only thing. Like, I I used to play with my husband a lot, and you know, we're playing at the the 5-0 level, and he loved to poach, and I'm like, you can poach all day long, but if you don't put it away, then now we're out of position. So I don't mind stacking with you, I don't mind if you poach, but if you're gonna take it, we gotta win the point with it because otherwise it's gotta be over.
SPEAKER_01Because otherwise you get burned down the line. So here's a question about the position that that one is in. Yep. To move back into your part of the court where your your stronger partner is serving. He's now serving from the side you're supposed to be on, let's say. Sure. Right? Yep. And usually it's uh described as you should wait outside the sideline and then come to your right or left parallel to the baseline. I've discovered in playing with these lefties, stacking with them, that if I if there's enough backcourt, if I stand to the outside shoulder and behind the time serving, I can just go straight forward. I don't have to do a bunch of fancy side steps, but they never describe it that way. They show it as I've got to wait way outside the sideline, got a lot further to come in, and then when the opponents are hitting to my backhand, if it's on the left-hand side of the court, oh my god, I've got to run to the right, turn, and do a backhand that's on my left.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, it it really depends on where that server is standing to serve the ball. You know, if they're standing more towards the middle of the court to serve the ball, you don't need to be off to the sideline. Right. I mean, if they're serving a serve where they actually want to serve all the way from the angle of the court, then you're gonna have to kind of stand either back behind them or off to the side, just so that you're not in their their way for their service motion. But basically, there's no there's no rule about you know where you you can or can't stand when you're the server's partner, right?
SPEAKER_01You just but to be the most efficient, yeah. You've done it. What what is the most efficient?
SPEAKER_02Right. So the most efficient is if they serve a little bit more towards the middle of the court, because remember, you know, he that person's got a slide to the other side, you've got to slide in behind them. So it's not ideal to have that person serving from diagonal because that's a lot of room that both of you now have to make up to cover, right? Right. So so I would not suggest that when stacking, I would suggest serving either from the middle of the box all the way over to that center hash line. That's going to be the more advantageous position to um to to stand to serve so that you can both slide into positions a lot quicker.
SPEAKER_01And the person waiting to recover their side of the court can stand anywhere that gets them there more quickly once their serving partner has finished the service motion and has moved. Yep, exactly. Yep, absolutely. So if if the opponents are clever and they think, wow, I've got two moving targets, basically. Two people who in not stacking play would be almost stationary, who are they most likely to go after? The stronger person who served, or the weaker one who's regaining their spot, or if the weaker person, if you will, is serving, do they go back to the server, back at the server?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so that's a very, very loaded question because there's many ways I can answer that. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh, cool. So there are times when I'm playing mixed doubles. If the person that I'm playing against, if the guy is really like big, strong net crasher, yeah, that is going to, you know, if I return to you, if if they're coming up ahead of you and and going to try to, you know, pick off another ball, yeah, then I'm actually going to return to the stronger player to keep them back there longer. Right.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02So now will they hit a better third shot? Yep, they will, but I made them stay back there a little bit longer, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Now, if if we're talking lower level play, right? So now we're not talking my level of play. Now we're talking, you know, 3-5 level play or even 4-0 minus level play, right? In that case, then when I hit to the weaker player, they might pop up their third shot. They might not hit a successful third shot, right? They might hit their third shot so that we can pick it off. So then I would pick on the weaker player.
SPEAKER_01But you said below 4-0, stacking is not going to be advantageous, comfortable, or a win.
SPEAKER_02It's just a lot to think about when you're when you're already struggling with trying to think about the basics, the strategy, the yeah, you know what I mean, the court positioning, because they don't have all that down yet. You know what I mean? Right. So, um, and you know, pickleball IQ is different at every level. You know, not all three fives are created equal. So I'm I'm certainly not saying that you cannot stack at three five. If you've got a high pickleball IQ and you can move well and you are comfortable with it, by all means, go ahead and do it. But I don't want you to do something that you're gonna feel a little worried about or a little off balance, or you know, I I I'm not comfortable doing this. And anytime you put yourself in an uncomfortable position, you're gonna play worse. You know what I'm saying? You're gonna feel weaker and you're gonna not be as confident in what you're doing. So then I would say, don't do it. Right.
SPEAKER_01And if you're playing with somebody, maybe somehow in a tournament, some people at a lower level sign up for a much higher level of tournament, which some of the tournament directors are now discouraging by insisting that at least one person in a pair is that actual skill level. So there were tournaments I went to where three O's and three fives were going into four-o brackets because there were fewer people in it. And so they liked the idea better, but they were basically over their head. So if you had two people where there was a disparity in skill level, yeah, I sort of like to think of even with me four and Sachary 4-5, that I kind of think of it, and I've never raced on a bicycle, uh, but the idea of drafting. I sort of think of it, I'm sort of drafting, I'm letting him create this power, and then my skill is to see where things are and do resets and do angles.
SPEAKER_02And you are the setup player at that moment, yes. So your role in that partnership is that you want to be super consistent, yes, and you want to keep the ball low, which is gonna allow that stronger player to really take over on the court. So your role is the steady in that instance. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Power behind the throne is how I like to look at it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but also, but the other thing is the don't shrink too much because you know that they're gonna pick on you, and you don't want to get to a point where you're letting that other player hit so many balls that when you finally get one, you're not ready or you're not confident, right? That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah. So you have to try to keep your confidence about you, and even though that's a strategy that you're using, you still need to be an aggressive, confident player that when it does come to me, hey, I need to be ready. Like it's not gonna be like I'm not gonna hit any balls here. Right.
SPEAKER_01And I can't hit them like a wuss either. I think part of it is it takes more mental concentration for the weaker player because if the stronger one plays one, two, or three balls in a row, it's not like you can take a deep breath and take a back seat. One of those is gonna be yours. You just don't know which one, so it's almost like you got a paper bag over your head. I don't know, one of them is gonna be mine. I'm here, you know? Yeah. So it's kind of like now.
SPEAKER_02I would also say, like that, what you brought up is the fact that you're playing with this person in a tournament, right? And so you're going to stack. However, you have practiced stacking before, you are not new to stacking. I would never recommend somebody stack for the very first time in a tournament. That's too much pressure, right?
SPEAKER_01So I gotta find out how comfortable he is. I'm okay, but I've got it with lefties. The righties, uh, you know, I don't usually pay with someone at a significantly higher level than me. Where it's like, oh my god, your forehead is so much better than mine. It has to be the overall game, it has to be better, not just the forehand.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And again, all I'm saying is practice it first. Don't just don't don't roll it out in a tournament. No, roll it out on the practice court ahead of time so that you can feel what it's like to have to slide over, stay ready, hit a shot, you know, or and see if the two of you do it well together.
SPEAKER_01It's a dance. So even though you might think, oh, I'm good, I'm okay with this concept, if the other player does it in a way that doesn't jibe with your style of doing it, how much you move over, how quickly you move over, how soon you go forward, then it's gonna it's gonna blow up in your face, right? Right, right.
SPEAKER_02And and the other thing is that I like to mention about just the concept of stacking, right? So um there is stacking at the service line, like we talked about. There's also stacking on the return, which I mentioned you don't see as often. Now, the reason why you don't see that one as often is because the person that's returning serve, um you're gonna be on the same side of the court as them. You're just gonna be standing off to the side of the kitchen line, so that the minute they hit the return of serve, you're sliding into the kitchen, and then they're going to slide to the other side of the court.
SPEAKER_01I've tried it. It that one for me, I feel like because the ball comes to the kitchen, a lot sooner than it gets to the baseline, I don't feel ready and I don't feel my foundation is firm enough. I don't feel my feet are set enough.
SPEAKER_02Right now, for that one, I definitely recommend higher level and high pickleball IQ because again, in that one, you really have to be able to figure out okay, where am I gonna hit this ball that's not gonna get us in trouble? Yeah, where am I gonna hit this ball that we're gonna both be able to slide into position without any issue, right? And then and then there's the whole conversation of you know, um, of when you watch pro play, how you have one player that's up at the net giving signals behind their back.
SPEAKER_01A whole other level.
SPEAKER_02That's a whole another level, but it's the same concept as stacking because there that player that's up at the net is basically saying, Hey, I want you to return serve and you know, uh down the line. Yeah, and so they show they show two signals. They show which way they want you to return serve, and then they tell you if they're gonna stay or go, right? So now if they say, Hey, I want you to return serve down the line, and guess what? I'm gonna go, then you have to be ready to hit that return of serve and then slide into their position. So it's kind of similar, you know, as far as like trying to figure that out and and being able to move and get where you need to go to actually use that to your advantage.
SPEAKER_01Plus sign language, plus you're supposed to acknowledge sign language. Yeah, that's probably that has something to do with skill level, that has to do with how your brain is wired. Is that gonna be over is that gonna overdose your brain? It's like, did he did he acknowledge it? What did I say I was gonna do? Wait, what did he say he was gonna do? So that's that's another level of sophistication.
SPEAKER_02And I would I would not introduce that until the four or five level in a I don't intend to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm gonna be very happy right where I am. Yeah, all right. So we're gonna practice this and I'll give you feedback on the QT of how it worked. And is there any point at which you abandon it during a match if you find that the opponents are taking advantage of it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like if if you are not able to or your partner's not able to move into position and it's actually causing you to lose points, yeah. You know, of course, the first couple times you do it in the game, you're still warming up, you're still getting into position. So I wouldn't abandon it right away, but you always have to track patterns in pickleball. And every time you step on the court, no matter who you're playing against, like your stacking may work very well against the first team you play in the tournament, but maybe it doesn't work against the second team. Yeah, right. So it's every time you step on the court, you have to analyze good patterns and bad patterns. And if it's causing you to lose more points than it's causing you to win, then abandon it.
SPEAKER_01Take a time out, say to your partner, let's go back to normal and see what happens.
SPEAKER_02Oh, and I've done that in tournaments before where you know somebody has wanted to stack with me and we try stacking. Now, I will tell you, you know, I have a a knee replacement, I have a fake knee. So it's it's it's not as easy for me to move into position quickly. And there are certain angles where it's hard for me to hit a shot based off of you know that fake knee. So so sometimes I'll be like, okay, we'll try it. I I'm happy to try stacking with you, but if they take advantage of the fact that I can't move as well, then we have to abandon it because it's just gonna end up hurting us. Right.
SPEAKER_01So, yeah, it's it's a case-by-case basis. Yep. Lisa Pell saying thank you so much. I'm gonna study my complete illustrated guide to pickleball tonight and look for more tips. And then, of course, I'll overdose my brain and not be able to think straight at all. Thank you so much. Look forward to talking to you again. Bye-bye. Okay, bye-bye. Thanks for listening. I hope you've enjoyed it, and I'm proud of our partnership with the APP, the Association of Pickleball Players, which provides world-class pickleball competitions for professionals and recreational players. I'm also grateful for our partnership with the IPTPA, which is the world leader in developing standards and certifying coaches across the world. If you subscribe on Apple or Spotify, please also sign up at pickleballobsession.net to get the weekly email with the podcast and bonus content. Embrace the obsession.