Pickleball Obsession
Pickleball advice and insight for recreational players who want to play better and understand the game. Hosted by obsessed amateur Tracie Hotchner, each episode delivers short, useful answers from certified pickleball pros that actually apply to your game.
Pickleball Obsession
Embrace the Angle > Win the Point
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#1033: Coach Greg Dedrick uses a variety of strategic angle shots in his game and recommends incorporating angles whenever possible — with the caution that "angles beget angles" so be prepared for the return of your shot.
Welcome to Pickleball Obsession. This is the first podcast created just for recreational picklers with quick useful advice for amateur players from a variety of certified pickleball coaches. Whether you're a social player out there just to have fun or a competitive one trying to sharpen your skills and win more, the more you know, the better you'll play. I hope this show will get you up to the kitchen faster, dink with a purpose, and help you win paddle battles. I'm your host, Tracy Hotner. You might know me as the pet wellness expert on NPR Sirius and my own pet podcast network, but here I'm no expert, just another admittedly obsessed player picking the brains of top coaches for advice we can all use. This show is brought to you in partnership with the IPTPA, the International Pickleball Teachers Professional Association, and the Association of Pickleball Players, the APP Tournaments. Sign up at pickleballobsession.net for the weekly episodes of the podcast, along with bonus content. Embrace the obsession. I am back with Greg Dietrich, the manager at True Pickleball Club, where I think you've suggested that I should rent an RV and park it in the parking lot because I'm there so much and I live an hour away. Yeah. It's a great place. I do think there's people who love it at True so much, Greg, that I'm like, that's weird. I'm there in the morning and sometimes there at night, and that person's still there, comfortable on the comfy couches. Are there people you feel should pay rent in addition to paying for the court?
SPEAKER_00There are definitely a couple people that we joke around and say, where are you hiding your cotton here? Because you're obviously sleeping here at some point, you know?
SPEAKER_01It's it's rare to have a place where there's a sport you love, but the whole atmosphere is just wonderful. It's just so positive. And then you accidentally go and try to do, I don't know, outdoor open play, someplace where you aren't known. You're like, oh, people are really clicky and a little bitchy, and like, I'm running back to true, where everyone smiles at you regardless. It's I think they give out smiley pills or something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it seems kind of silly, and I know it's cliche, but like it is kind of like a family. And you know, some of us are a little dysfunctional.
SPEAKER_01Oh, oh me, yeah, the bossy older sister. Shut up. Don't tell me what to do at the baseline. But you know what I want to talk about is something that is never talked about, even in a lot of clinics, because maybe there isn't time. Private lessons, it's really hard because it's just you and the pro, like when I have a lesson with you or Veronica Alteri. Angles. You know, we once did a show, Down the Middle Solves the Ribble Riddle is an absurd comment. That isn't true at all. But when people hit a ball straight down the middle and it wins, they go, Oh yeah, down the middle solves the riddle. But really, it doesn't, okay? Because after you've done that one time, I can block it the next time. Angles, which you hit a lot of, are strategic and clever and sneaky. Yep. But then there's the the issue. If you do hit an angle, where are you hitting it from the kitchen, which is one kind of angle? You're hitting it from the baseline or mid-court, are you crashing in? But then there's the problem. You hit an angle and you get an angle back. And if you aren't ready, you're going to get burned. So, what is your kind of 101 on angles in general? Incorporating them but cautiously, maybe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like you said, um, angles are a big part of my game. I'm not a power player. Um, and I was always like, cool, I'm gonna hit these great angles, and sometimes they win points, and sometimes they set up points. And then um, you know, one time I was watching pro pickleball on TV, and and I can't remember who the announcer was, but he said, angles beset angles. Yeah. And it really stuck with me. And then all of a sudden I noticed sometimes I'd hit an angle, and this crazy shot would come back. And I was like, Well, look at that. Um, you know, and it's something I had never thought about. It was just like, oh, I'm gonna hit this cool shot, and sometimes I'll win, sometimes I won't. And then a lot of times the ball that was coming back was was just very difficult.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00You know, um, and I really do think a lot of it depends on level. Um, if you if you're playing, you know, a little bit lower level and you can kind of move it around and hit shots, you're gonna win a lot of points. Um, but as you move up and you start to play some some strong players, all of a sudden that really great cross-court backhand dink guy hit to a person like Veronica or a Joe, uh Joe Shember, who plays your Larry Diego, all of a sudden it's uh it's a terrific ATP that your partner now has to do. Or you or you hit this great angle and you think you're in the right spot, and then the shot that they hit back is virtually untouchable because of the angle that it's coming back at.
SPEAKER_01You know, so specifically dinking. So let's say everyone has this idea, whether you're starting or you're a mid-level player, you're or you call yourself a 4-0, a whole nother conversation. Who said you're a 4-0? But never mind. I mean, to me, myself as well. I mean, who said it? I know who said it to me, but it's still very confusing. But let's say you're at a really good competitive level, so you think, oh yeah, backhand dink, that a really sharp angle. That's gonna be great. And you hit it, and it's like, uh-oh, they love that. They love a sharp backhand ding. So now you've created a little bit of a monster for yourself because you've hit one and you're thinking that's swell. Now an even more intense one comes back. So you have really little choice but to send another one, and here comes another one. So, what do you do when it's not a paddle battle, but you have kind of poked a bear like a speed up when you shouldn't have? How how do you know who not to hit what you think is a marvelous backhand angle to?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, I definitely think there's some trial and error there. You you need to hit shots that you're comfortable with, um, but you also have to be realistic of okay, am I winning this battle?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Or am I just doing it because it's my pattern, the shots I like to hit, and then go, uh-oh, they're actually better at this than me.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00A lot of uh, I talk about this a lot in my um the dinking clinics. I do is you shouldn't just be hitting a shot because it's a comfortable shot for you, because a lot of times you are not going to be the best at that shot. That's right. There's always someone better. Um and you're going to run into them and you're going to have to mix it up, and you have to get out of your comfort zone a little bit. And you can't just hit that beautiful angle because there's always going to be someone better at hitting that beautiful angle back and putting pressure on you.
SPEAKER_01And the question is, how many times can they hit it beautifully? I mean, you might have learned, in my case, I've learned to do really one beauty. I can't do three or four in a row really with confidence. I can maybe do the second one, but after that, I'm like, uh oh. They are good, they can do this all day long. Now I'm toast.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I'll exactly it.
SPEAKER_01I mean, the angle has come out to hurt me somewhat, and so then I have to change it. But if they've hit a really great angle, changing it to, I don't know, a drop to their partner or more towards the middle is hard. Maybe I'm hitting the net.
SPEAKER_00Trying to mix it up. Um, I actually I I know this is going to seem so simple, um, but I I love the angles as we talked about. And I was I was listening/slash watching one of your podcasts, and unfortunately, I can't remember who who it was. That's right.
SPEAKER_01Tell me, maybe I'll remember. That'd be good.
SPEAKER_00But one of the people you had on talked about they do it, but their beginners is teaching them just aim for their aim for the right foot on their dink.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_00And I was like, and I I was I was thinking I was sitting there and I was thinking about it. I'm like, well, at the level I play at, that's not gonna work. Like, no. And then next thing you know, I I just started to mix it in. And it really even worked at the four or five plus level.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Just as like a changeup, a mix-up, um, which is something I I talk about a lot to the intermediate players, and I do mix it up a lot. I do go to a lot of different places, but just hitting that nice, simple stink with good depth at their foot.
SPEAKER_01At their right foot. I think it was Lisa Palsik because she's very contagious.
SPEAKER_00That's exactly what it was. You're right.
SPEAKER_01And when someone says to you, hit it to their feet, you're like, okay, I get the concept, hit to their feet. But when she says, I'd forgotten about that myself, I'm gonna start trying it tomorrow. Um, go to their right foot. Because you know, everyone, I mean, we're only humans. I don't care if you're five-o, your right foot is still a really awkward place if you're going for a backhand and you're a right hand. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And and and it's so simple, and you don't even think about it because, like, let's be honest, the backhand dink, whether you're hitting a one-hand slice or the two-ey with topspin, that that fun angled shot is it's fun. It looks cool. Yes, everyone likes doing it. Yes. Um but it it's it's it could be very difficult when you're at an equal level or at a at a disadvantage to win with that shot because most of the time, quite frankly, you're gonna be outgunned.
SPEAKER_01You're gonna be uh how about the horror show where they do an inside out, they come around it and suddenly they turn it into a forehand and they drive it through the middle. If they're quick enough, I mean if they're a lefty, they can do other things, but I mean, lefties, there's fewer of them. But I've seen people take that backhand shot, run not even run around it, just hop around it and hit it beautifully with their forehand, and now it's suddenly not a backhand dink anymore. The point's over, and it's not a new favorite.
SPEAKER_00Last week, I was I was playing a mixed game and I was on the left hand side, and and the one person kept pushing it out wide to me, kept pushing it out wide, and then I would mix up my dink, and then all of a sudden I realized their partner had shifted so far middle, all I had to do was make it look like my backhand dink, and then just open it up down the line. Yes, and I'm hitting it at like two miles per hour. Yes, but but you know, it just looks like the other dink, and they had just kept giving me the same shot over and over again. I was like, Well, why am I just gonna keep going there? And I would just pop it down the line, win a couple points, and then next thing you know, their partner now needs to protect protect line a little bit more, and now I've got the whole middle open, and the guy I was playing, he just kept hitting it. I was like, Well, now this is great for me. Yeah, and that's the problem.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's the problem when people are working their way up to a more advanced level. Forget the number, the number has become kind of irrelevant, but you're working your way up and you think, I got this, I got this. And then what you find is I've found this. So um I've either been served to or I've served, and the ball's come back, and my maybe my third shot or my fifth shot more importantly, I'm gonna hit it really a great angle. Unfortunately, what will probably be their forehand. And now they hit a winner back at me. Now I've hit what I think is a great shot, have gotten them way off the court. But if they're really good and they're way off the court, they've got that whole big kind of middle angle. It's unreturnable. So hitting a really great angle that you think is a crash, and like you said, it's dramatic, looks really great. And this person's off the court, and therefore they've they've got so many more angles of their own now because they're not even on the court.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And and you know, for a little bit a couple months ago, I I had had um moving away from the net um on my return of serve. I had been really heavy on I'm gonna return cross-court. Yes, it's going to allow me more time to get up to the kitchen and be aggressive. And that was kind of like what I was what I was preaching and what I played. Um, and I realized a little bit, sometimes they were hitting, my opponent was hitting this really sharp angle. And I kind of just I brushed it off like, okay, whatever, they had a great shot. Right, right. Right. Um, and then uh the player that I was playing a lot of men's with, Jason, said, you know, hey, would you, and we were very open in our conversations about what we're doing. He said, Would you return it straight ahead of you a little bit more? And I said, Absolutely, why do you want me to do it? And he goes, Well, even if they hit to you, it's now coming at it's coming straight to you. Yeah, so you're gonna be able to do it, and it's going to allow me to poach a little bit more.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_00I no longer have to worry about covering my line, I can be in there.
SPEAKER_01And it was like a light bulb kind of light bulb moment, yep.
SPEAKER_00Of course, yeah, of course, what am I thinking? You know, yes, I still want to get to the kitchen line, and I find it easier if I return cross-court. But even if I don't get to the kitchen line, now with that ball straight in front of me, my life's a little easier, and I'm making my partner's life so much easier because they can be aggressive and poach, and that's still it's all about angles, it's all about angles of where that ball is going to come back, making my life easier without all these sharp returns, and making my partner's life easier because now they know where that ball's coming from and they can be more aggressive poaching.
SPEAKER_01And it's not the end of the point. Because otherwise, what you've hit without realizing it, because you think you've hit a beautiful, good, aggressive, intelligent shot. Now they've hit winners off it, and you think, well, that guy's just really good. You gave it to them no differently than a meatball. To that person, what you gave was a beauty, oh yummy, and they went for it and they hit a winner, and now you've built their confidence. You now hold them in a higher estimation, not realizing your angle gave them an angle that was so good. And I think we all do that. You know, we hit it. Something comes back and we go, oh, nice shot, so and so. Well, you just actually invited them. You invited them.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. We helped it. Yeah, and that was the case too. The people, there were two players specifically who just happened to have really good right hand side forehand dinks that they could hit cross-court with sharp. And I was hitting them, and I was just like, oh, they hit a great shot. Um, and as someone who's normally pretty good at like picking up patterns, I did pick it up, but I'm still like, well, that's where I want to go. Um, but certain people just have shots that are really good for them. And if you give them that angle, they're gonna take that angle and it's gonna make your life very difficult. And even if you get to it, you're gonna pop it up, and then they won the point anyway because you just put it up there.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and they can put it away. The other one is serving out wide an angle or hitting out wide to the person's backhand. We think, oh, we got them now. There's a bunch of people that can hit, and I don't mean they're four fives like you or five. Oh, they can hit ATPs off those.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. If they're sh if they're rarely, but you do see it, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Or they attempt it, at which point you think, oh, well, I'm giving them practice on something they really actually like. An ATP. What about these people doing earnies? Now, I don't know, just in rec play, I've suddenly noticed three or four. I've going, what this is lunacy. I mean, all of a sudden people are hitting Ernies. I when did this sort of be incorporated into just advanced open play? Have you noticed that? Because that is from angles also. They can only do it off an angle.
SPEAKER_00It's interesting. You see it a lot off of like a straight-ahead dink, right? People read that, but but uh but lately I have seen it a lot more where someone hits a super sharp cross-court ball and the player right. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01It's a horror show. I'm like, wait a minute, I just hit a winner. I even say to the person, what do you think you're doing with my so-called winner that you just earnieed to put it away?
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01It becomes dangerous.
SPEAKER_00It it absolutely does. And that's the great part, I think, about pickleball and what we've seen in the last, you know, even year and a half, two years, is even players who might not quite be at the four or five plus level yet, they're they're seeing it, they're watching pro players, and you're seeing these incredible shots, even at the lower level, where they still might be inconsistent in their drops or you know, they're driving too much. Yeah, sometimes their games get a little high, but then all of a sudden you hit you see them jump over the corner of the court to hit a backhand flick Ernie on a cross court, and you're like, wow, that was awesome.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly how I felt. Like, wait a minute, are you a sheep in wolf's wolf in sheep's clothing? I mean, who who put you in the like a ringer? Because your last three shots were not all that great, and now suddenly you're you're jumping on a shot that's an angle to what should be your backhand, and you're turning it into an unreturnable shot.
SPEAKER_00So I don't use it a ton, but I I do use that um specifically like the game I talked about last week when I was playing mixed, and my opponent kept hitting this this cross-court ding. Um, eventually, when I noticed some were like a little bit high but shallow, I realized, ooh, rather than reach too far and try to roll one, if I can earn it, I can then hit a super sharp close to the net cross-court off, and I will mix it in. Um, and it's really just about recognizing patterns. And like we said, that person's hitting a beautiful angled shot, and they're going, I can hit it a little high because of how shallow it is. You know, Greg can't attack that, but all of a sudden you can by doing that Ernie. And the angle that comes back, like we said, angles beset angles, yeah, the angle that can come back off of that shot is so sharp. Yeah, it's unreturnable.
SPEAKER_01It's a total winner. So is the advice that we have about angles incorporate them more because they have a place. Just going middle, middle, middle, or straight at people is you have to mix it up. But should the angles not be so sharp? Or does it depend on whether you're hitting from transition zone versus baseline? I mean, what kind of angle is the most dangerous? It seems like from what we're talking about, those the the ones in the kitchen, the dink, push a dink, those kind of shots can get you in trouble.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, to me, it's a lot about the patterns and it's about um, are you predictable?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Right. If you if you have a beautiful two-hand, heavy topspin cross-core dink that you that you do mix up, but you hit it wide a lot good players are gonna start to read it and they're gonna sit on one and they're gonna ATP it. Yeah, you know, I think I think there are there are certainly times for a great angle. Um, but I think it all becomes with how do you hit it and to not be predictable. You know, if you can if you can pull your opponent in in a little bit with your dinks and then all of a sudden roll one heavy cross court, yeah, then then it's a lot better. But if you're just going heavy cross-court, heavy cross-court, heavy cross court.
SPEAKER_01They park, they park way over there.
SPEAKER_00You know, so I think the angles are very important, but when you use those angles are just as important. Like, just like when do you go down the middle? If you're just going down the middle all the time, people are gonna sit on it and they're gonna they're going to annihilate it. But if all of a sudden you push them outside for two dinks in a row, and you create that space, you know, it's all about being a little bit unpredictable, even within your own patterns that you're comfortable with. Um, you need to set up the shots that you like. And I think that's the real key with the angles, even is no matter how cool they look, if they know it's coming, you're in trouble.
SPEAKER_01You've got to mix it up. So the one last question about angles is where you hit an overhead. Because I've noticed a lot of times if I've been lobbed, you know, generally everyone who knows me knows I'm like, that's for my partner to get because that's just I'm just the princess where lobs are concerned. But let's say I can reach it, which you know, many times I can. So I now hit it back directly. Uh why is this? At the person who hit it. Now they lob it again. Now I hit it directly, and I'm not the only one. I've seen this happen. So it's a pattern. They hit it, you hit it back at them. They hit it up again, you hit it back, and everyone's watching and going, oh, cool. It's not cool. You're hitting it back to the person who is very comfortable lobbing it. Should we angle away? Shouldn't, shouldn't we angle away a lob hit at us? Is there any reason to hit it back to the lobber?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, um, I I think it's rare that you should hit to the lobber unless they're lobbing to try to get to the net and then maybe you can hit them in transition zone. Yes. But I think the person you're talking about is just like the serial lob.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_00They're they're they're holding their spot near the baseline.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_00They're just lobbing for fun. I would I would rarely go back to them. Um, I do think going up the middle sometimes is great. Um me personally, I like to hit a nice sharp angle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right? I've seen you do it.
SPEAKER_00But I certainly do also teach um to the to the four, oh, and under. Sometimes you just keep keep blasting it middle. Yeah, keep letting them come together, the teammates. Make them, you know, eventually they're gonna hit a bad one and you're gonna crush it. But like just don't make a mistake at the at the four, oh, and under level. Just just don't make a mistake. Right. Keep it consistent and be good, but also that will then pinch them middle, and it will allow you to try an angle that maybe you miss early on, you know, but it will get you more comfortable. But certainly at the higher, higher level, you've gotta, you've got to rip it. You've got to rip it away at an angle. And a lot of times I'll hit it with a little less power, too, just to get them off the court, knowing they're gonna get it. That's right because then it's gonna make my next overhead much easier to put away. You know, it's all about the setup, it's all about I hate saying waiting for the perfect shot because pickleball is getting so aggressive. You can't just wait, but you can create easier opportunities for yourself. You know, you don't have to you don't have to be too aggressive on a bad ball. You can create a pretty good ball instead of the perfect ball for yourself with that angle.
SPEAKER_01And remember, you may not end the point with it, but you will move that person around enough that maybe your next shot is an angle off the other side.
SPEAKER_00That's the real key to me. That's the real key to me, is always just be setting yourself up. And sometimes that's going to be a winner, and sometimes it's just setting up your winner, your next shot. Um but just make a good shot. Make a good shot is always my strategy.
SPEAKER_01Yep. And an angle might be the way to end a point when you're actually scoring. Sometimes it's not, right? Yeah, but at least incorporate it. And even at the at the advancing level when you're somewhere around 3-5, start to do it. Get your brain used to it. Because I never got used to it, the idea of like put it away, and now I play with so much better players, and everyone's putting it away out at an angle. So now I'm realizing that's what you have to do, but again, not predictably. Otherwise, they can face it. Yep, you've got to mix it up. The sooner you get your brain used to angles and when to use them and when not, the the better it'll go for you. Thank you, Greg Dietrich. See you on the court soon.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Tracy.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for listening. I hope you've enjoyed it, and I'm proud of our partnership with the APP, the Association of Pickleball Players, which provides world-class pickleball competitions for professionals and recreational players. I'm also grateful for our partnership with the IPTPA, which is the world leader in developing standards and certifying coaches across the world. If you subscribe on Apple or Spotify, please also sign up at pickleballobsession.net to get the weekly email with the podcast and bonus content. Embrace the obsession.