Healthy Scratch Podcast
The Healthy Scratch Podcast takes on topics relevent to players and teams surrounding the sport of hockey
Healthy Scratch Podcast
Healthy Scratch Podcast - April 7
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On the Healthy Scratch Podcast, Kevin Cain of Cain Hockey Management discusses players getting paid to play in Tier II hockey
It's time now for the Healthy Scratch Podcast with your host, Kevin Kane. The Healthy Scratch Podcast is sponsored by Kane Hockey Management, Hockey News North, and Hockey News Windsor.
SPEAKER_02And hi again, everybody. This is Brad Cuchamelio and uh Kevin Kane of Kane Hockey Management. We're back with a uh another episode of the Healthy Scratch Podcast and uh a few different uh a few different topics on the uh on the go today. And obviously we're getting late into uh late into seasons, uh provincial championships for a lot of teams coming up around uh uh you know around the uh around the north and uh you know different things, but uh we're gonna jump in. We got a uh you know a few things like I said we're we're kind of touching base on here today. But uh the first one, uh you know, it's kind of uh you know a thing that um you know it's come up more um I guess more in the open is maybe the best way to put it um you know over the last number of years. Uh you know, and it's the idea of uh you know players getting paid, um, you know, and in some cases the numbers are you know relatively relatively excuse me significant uh at the at the junior A level. Um players getting uh getting big money and you know, big money getting involved with uh players joining franchises and organizations. Uh let's maybe jump into it, man. Um you know, there's you know, this stemmed from uh you know a few different uh a few different things, but uh you know let's uh let's jump in on that. I mean, obviously this is something that's uh you know been a lot more out in the open uh over the last few years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so this has been um a long you know long standing uh issue in junior hockey for 20 years, maybe longer, um, especially in tier two. Um so what's kind of brought to the forefront is you know um the NOJHL seems to have uh you know a team that's in the crosshairs of people um in regards to uh paying players and and the uh and I really want to respect this, um, the rumor that you know players are getting paid um to play. And you know, like full transparency, I I have like the utmost respect for Mr. Burgess and Sudbury, the former Wolves owner, now Cubs owner, um Blaine Smith, who I think is is you know a key component with the Cubs. Um Mr. Burgess has put a lot of money into the Cubs since he's owned it, and they've been very successful. So there was a post today uh in regards to uh a player in Sudbury, and um again, um it's all speculation that I can't speak on on as like an individual sort of thing. Um but in the long-term scope of this pay-to-play, or you know, um, I know firsthand um there's been players uh along the way that got paid significant amounts of money to play tier two. Uh most of them were former any oi cellars um that people hold in high regard that would you know be of a big benefit to their team. Um the GOGHL, you know, 10 years ago was the prime culprit. You know, they had there was a team in Caledonia that had you know a plessor of hoychellers, yeah. Um and the standard thing was you know, there every player was getting X amount of dollars a week and they'd stand at the door on payday. And um I knew it was done in Chatham with the previous ownership. Um so this has been a long-standing problem. Um it is a rule, by my understanding, uh, you know, in the CJHL and in Hockey Canada, that paying to play or paying players to play um is is a no-go. Um but I I you know I I think for the most part, what people have to understand is there there has to be uh real proof and there has to be a willingness for the group um that's investigating to actually really want to find out you know what that situation is. And and so um again, uh Brad, this is this is very old. Um this goes back even in the OHL time. Um you know, Sam Gogne's, you know, give Sam's uh dad a job, uh Patrick Kane, they they talked about how much you know they paid him back in the day. Um all of this was illegal um right through. So um I remember a story in the OHL of a player getting traded. Um, I want to say maybe CompuWare back in the day in the old getting traded to Sudbrief and the kid showing up uh at the office door um looking for his check. And the team that traded for him had no idea that he had been getting this money all along.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01And it you know, obviously made for a little bit of a a rough conversation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no problem.
SPEAKER_01Um so this has been, again, longstanding. Um today's post that's you know, kind of fired everybody up, especially like I know the people in the Blind River area are perturbed because the player used to play in Blind River, and um so the story goes that Blind River couldn't afford to pay him, so he went to Sudbury. Again, it it's all conjecture until somebody can you know uh prove otherwise, but um there are teams and it's no secret. There are teams that operate on much different budgets than others, and what they do with their money, like you know, uh off the books or whatever, however you want to want to say it, yeah, is up to them until such time as as they get caught. So um again, people are upset today. Um I I keep getting tagged in these posts, people message me, whatever, and I wish I could say this is a brand new problem that could just get resolved, right, you know, real quick, but it's not. And I mean I I remember back, I guess I was you know part of the issue at some point because back in my early days with the Thunderbirds, um, we paid for classes for a couple of players, which is money. Um we purchased uh um skates for somebody who didn't have money back in the day. Um that's money. So I mean, I'm probably uh at some point to blame the same. It's just done differently and for different reasons. But um again, teams with money and uh support have the ability to do um different things, and what they do with it, you know, until somebody's proven um that it's been done um will remain you know just conjecture and and rumor.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Um you know, and the other part is somebody has to be willing to want to find the answer, and I don't know that that's been the case up to now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and I think that's an interesting point, too, right? Is you know, the idea that you know everyone saying this is going on, whether it is or you know, officially or are or not, but you know, at the end of the day, nobody nobody's chasing these things down. Like you you mentioned the idea of you know how far these kind of things go back, you know, these kind of rumors and and you know thought processes go back, and you know, everyone says, oh, you know, to use the OHL example, oh the one denights, they cheat, they pay everybody. Well, you know what? I mean that's all well and good to say they do, but you know, I don't see too many people going out and actually say uh and actually doing the legwork and then finding you know some sort of paperwork or you know, finding something that would say, hey, this happened. And you know, that I I think that is a really interesting point that you know nobody's following. People are saying it's happening, but nobody's following up on anything like this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it happened out in BC or out west. I don't want to say BC, but out west at some point um in the last ten years where um a player uh you know didn't get or what he thought he was promised, and you know, sort of made a stink about it, and the team just said, Look, uh, you know, uh, we never promised that. And uh the family's like, well, you did, and they're like, Well, you know, sort of prove it. And of course they couldn't. Um, so um, you know, again, it we're we're dealing with something there's a thousand rules, yeah, and this one is just one of a thousand. And the unfortunate part is um, you know, in in today's situation with with the little post and the in the comments today, um, it's because a player played somewhere else and um wasn't willing to go back there, and the logical explanation was he was getting paid a significant amount of money um from another team. Um I can say this unequivocally, because it it happened in the last 18 months. I had a client who um became a uh quote-unquote free agent at some point, and the discussions with many teams that called about them, um, you know, they're not they weren't shy about what they were willing to do. And so um it it still happens, it happens today and it'll happen tomorrow. Um you know, I mean, from uh X amount of dollars a week to uh we'll pay all of his, you know, university, we'll pay this, we'll put you know, his room and board, we'll do all this stuff. Um so you know, it that's just happened lately. So again, it's gonna happen until somebody proves otherwise, and when they do prove otherwise, the uh punishment has to sort of um you know fit the crime because if you're trying to get others not to do it, um the the the punishment needs to be pretty severe. So I don't know that anybody's in the in the interest of of leagues and and and the game are are wanting to do that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no question. That's uh you know, that's a also a you know a real good point for that for sure. Um we'll shift gears uh a little bit, um you know, but but still looking at kind of the high level high-level hockey. Um you know, one thing we've talked about on the on the show this year is um you know the idea of you know AAA and and you know when's right and you know what's right for different players. Um one thing you were you were kind of talking a little bit about before we came on was the idea of you know players playing kind of that quote unquote triple A hockey at younger ages. And it just seems like you know, nowadays it seems like you know, every level, younger and younger, is getting more and more triple A, triple A teams. You know, it it seems like it's I don't know, it almost seems like it's getting out of hand a little bit in terms of you know just how many A groups have triple A hockey where it almost brings up the kind of brings up the question of Is it really necessary to have uh a triple A team at um you know whether you know when you're talking about like eight, nine, ten-year-old players. AAA really uh you know a thing that needs to be a thing, so to speak, at uh at that point. Uh you know, maybe maybe some thoughts on this, Kevin. I mean, it's uh you know obviously that's something coming up more and more now, but uh triple A at younger levels and and you know what's good for players? Uh you know, kind of take me through your thought process on that.
SPEAKER_01Well, uh the the first, so I I I fall on on the family side. So I I you know where I come from is the player and and the family side. And and here's the issue. Um parents want to do everything possible for their kids. They love their kids.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01And so when one of them shows um, you know, uh a significant interest in something like hockey and seem to have um some talent at a young age, they tend to be all in on helping um you know their son or daughter um become a player. And so, you know, it it's almost uh, you know, there's a reason, you know, it's just an analogy. There's a reason in the OHL that they don't trade first round picks anymore because teams can't help themselves. And the same thing goes with this, it's it's just a parent trying to love their kids and give them every opportunity. So the the the younger the level, the higher or the younger the age and the higher the level that you you you know propose to people, they're going to be all in. Like if you said we're gonna have triple A at nine years old, there would be 50 people lined up to try out in the Sioux for AAA at nine years old. Um now my issue is with having a limited population, you have um nobody to play. So if you're in Detroit or in Toronto or whatever, and you want to play triple A at nine years old, yeah, player fees are going to be significant. But you're not going to be traveling all over the you know the country because you have lots of teams to play in a in a short distance.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01If you're in the north and you have a double A team at nine years old, or two of them at nine years old, there's nobody to play. So what happens is they're forced now to travel to play other people. Well, when you travel, now not only do you have these player fees, you know, for ice and and all of the regular stuff, yeah, now you have uh families having to travel. So if you um bus, you know, it's probably 60% of your budget.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If you drive in cars, it's now a you know um probably $10,000 to travel um through the winter for your you know hotel rooms and fuel and all that stuff for for parents. So, you know, when I look back, we've had like an exceptional like number of high-end NHLers, uh really great OHL guys that have great OHL careers that had none of this when they were growing up.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01None of it. Um, I can recall in my days playing at the PUE as a young kid, there was one team, this 13-year-old team. They would go to the Quebec tournament, and the team was just loaded with talent. And that was the only team that was this travel, you know, sort of team. And so you played from the time you're five years old for the chance or an opportunity to be on that team as a 13-year-old.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01So that's a long time to hold your game with all of the good players all playing against each other for all of those years leading up to that time. So right now, you you have, you know, these AA teams or or whatever, you have maybe 10 kids that are maybe of that caliber, you have three or four maybe that are kind of you know, maybe on the borderline, and then you have four or five kids at the bottom of the roster that are are probably housing kids, and for them, every year is fifteen thousand dollars to play. Right, you know, because nobody's willing to you know um discuss the hard truth, and that is it is just way too much money at a young age for families to have to um you know fork out. Um, but again, if given the opportunity, I know how much I love my kids, I know what I would do for my kids, I know what I do for my kids right now. Yeah, and I would do anything. So if my son said to me, Dad, I'm all in on this hockey. I really wanna, I would do everything I could to uh forward his dream. But the unfortunate thing is it's it's not always the right thing to do, and unfortunately, um it can bankrupt a family. It can simply bankrupt a family. Then families have other children. You know, they have maybe uh uh two sons and and a daughter. Well, now they they've not gotten the opportunity to to do some of the stuff the daughter does. I I've seen this a hundred times. And the unfortunate thing is if we just keep allowing this to become higher levels at at younger ages over time, it's just gonna get worse.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's crazy to think, right? And like you said, the you know, the idea that you know families with multiple kids, I mean, you know, brings up an interesting situation uh, you know, with that as well. And um, you know, it's it's wild to think, you know, like you said, we're all you know, anybody who who has kids, you know, knows full well, like you said, that you know, you would do anything for your for your child to be successful in whatever they want to do, whether it's hockey or you know theater, whatever. Um, you know, and it's you know, if you have the opportunity for them and and you're gonna do everything to make it work. And you know, unfortunately, like you said, in some situations it's gonna put families um you know in that real tough spot financially that uh you know who in some cases you don't know if you're gonna be able to kind of get out of it, right? It's um you know, and especially for such a small percentage that end up um that end up playing in the NHL.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, and and let's look at like I I mean I'm I'm a Greyhound fan. It's it's it's uh Sue Greyhound uh playoff time. I'm very excited. So let's just take a look at some former Greyhounds that were legends with the Hounds. Um like a guy like you know, Mike Olivario or Chris Feelick or guys like that, they never had double A at seven years old or eight years old, or they never had any of that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01All the really good players played together. I know at the Pee-Wee back then it would be like like uh the good players played uh uh Pee Wee major and then uh maybe kids that weren't quite there yet played Pee-Wee minor or you know, whatever. Um and and over time you developed your skill and it became um around 12 years old where you started to really separate you know yourselves from the others.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01You know, and families could still afford to have their kids play hockey at this point now. Um, you know, player fees might be seven or eight thousand dollars, well now you double that for travel um for a family. You're looking at sixteen or seventeen thousand dollars for a winter hockey from the time they're 10, 11 years old. So if the play player plays up to U18, you know, you have five, six years of of seventeen thousand dollars a year, right, that's a lot of money. That's just it's a lot of money, and that's one child in that family, just one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So again, we love our kids. Nobody loves their kids more than I do, but um if we create these situations for parents because they love their kids like they do, um, it's just going to make it worse. And um, I think we need to pull back a little bit, um have you know players having opportunity to play local games like the old, you know, we used to have the the double A banner league.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It was a great league. It was a great league. And then the really, really good players from that league would find their way to AAA the next year, maybe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_01Um or double A midget. They would play in that league as a first year player, and then as a second year player, all of a sudden they would make the Sonor Stars or whatever, like the Tyler Gendrons or the like there were just so many really great players. So it can't all, you know, we can't all get to the same place at the same time. And you know, with families now, there's enough, you know, uh with the economy and the and the way things are going, it just it's too difficult, I think, for a family to navigate.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And um you're gonna have kids that can't play because simply the families figured out that that it isn't possible. Yeah. And then you're gonna have others that are going to to play um despite the fact, and and they, you know, as my father would say uh back in the day, uh don't worry about it, I'll find a way. That was my father's favorite thing. So it's it's not for you to concern yourself, I'll find a way.
SPEAKER_03That's it.
SPEAKER_01So um, you know, and and and we need to take some pressure off parents because whatever's going on with the parents right now is tough. And you can see it, it's evident in the arenas.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. And uh shifting one final uh one final time for this week's show. Uh I know you said uh you wanted to touch a little bit on uh on Laker hockey and um you know kind of fitting, I mean the NCAA hockey season's getting uh getting into its final days with uh the frozen four coming up, but um you know obviously it was uh it was a struggling year um in Lake State Land. Uh another one. Um you know, it maybe some thoughts as uh as the NCAA season's winding down here. Uh some yeah, I know you had you said you had some thoughts on the Lakers, Kev.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I watched something the other day, uh John Buchross on ESPN, uh he's a big college hockey guy.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_01Um and you know, basically was talking about um the very high-end schools, you know, Big Ten, uh some of the Boston schools, whatever, that's you know, have unlimited sort of budgets and and the ability to attract players. And you know, and then the other, you know, school where um, you know, and I use Lake State as an example, smaller school, limited enrollment. Um and and one of the things that he talked about was potentially splitting up college hockey and having the teams that have all the resources and I all money and whatnot um play together and everybody else play um you know at that level during the year or whatever, but ultimately play for their own championship. And it was just a very interesting um you know, concept that you know maybe with the advent of NIL and and um you know TV contracts um for some leagues are are big and for others um you know there is no money. Um maybe this is a way of of you know creating a super league with you know the top you know 20 budget you know sort of teams, right? And then having you know right below it a uh a separate sort of college hockey where um all the rest of the teams played for their own national championship. Um they could still play in their own leagues and still do everything the way they currently do, but there would be a separation at tournament time or whatever, because um again it's a little bit you know, we're getting into the unfair, you know, sort of situation where um you know you have uh uh you know Gavin McKenna at Penn State getting whatever he gets, and then that night playing a game against uh Holy Cross, um, you know, really is no comparison, you know, in in regards to budget or whatever. Or, you know, Lake State goes and plays um Michigan or or Michigan State that have the huge budgets. Um you know, I I rag on Lake State hockey for you know have over the last few years because of how irrelevant they've been and how poorly they've done. Um and maybe this is some sort of an opportunity if it gains some traction, which apparently it has a little bit, um that maybe we can see in the future here um some sort of a a change because um uh uh you know you look at the final four um and you look at the tournament itself, the the you know, the NCA hockey tournament, yeah. Um the majority are are are big name, big money teams. Um and you know it's difficult for people to um be able to follow. So you know, again, it it's almost like you know, what we first touched on where teams have the ability to pay players, um, and a lot of teams don't. This is you know basically the same situation, right? Except in this situation it's legal. It's highly legal. So um, you know, maybe they'll come up with a way to make the landscape of US you know, NCAA college hockey a little bit more level. Right. Um and maybe that is by splitting the two uh um just splitting it into two levels.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, certainly uh certainly an interesting idea and something that uh you know could uh like you said, it's you know it sounds like it might be something that's gaining a bit of traction. It could be good for, like you said, schools like you know, like Lake State, like uh, you know, some of these smaller, you know, the quote unquote smaller market schools to you know give themselves an opportunity to have successful years, um you know, and maybe get back to maybe get to a point where you know um you know that success is something that they're seeing a little more often for sure.
SPEAKER_01Well, the other part to it is um when you're looking at TV contracts, you know, imagine going to ESPN or you know, ABC or whatever and saying, look, uh we have the 30 best you know Division I men's hockey teams um playing uh you know a schedule or whatever. Um you know, how much are you going to pay us for this? Well, I can tell you it's probably significantly more than um you know CCHA or or WCHA or the Big Ten or whatever uh can make on their you know um TV deals. Um so that would eliminate that, and then that other money could fall back to the you know next level of of college hockey. I mean I watched the Division III um college hockey finals the other day, and I mean the arena was jammed.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Just absolutely jammed. So um Division III hockey is good, really good now, after the CHL stuff.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So um a second level of Division I is certainly not going to hurt.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. Definitely, uh, you know, definitely sounds like something that could be uh you know, could be good for a lot of schools, what be it you know, the kind of the name schools or um you know, like we said, the smaller schools like the lake states of uh of college hockey. Um yeah, and with uh with that, um that's gonna wrap this week's episode of the Healthy Scratch Podcast up for uh Kevin Kane of Kane Hockey Management, myself, Brad Kutchmelio. Um our sponsors, we uh as always we appreciate you listening in and uh look forward to having you uh having you tune in again uh next week.
SPEAKER_01Thanks again, Brad.