Episode 28 - Caiphus Semenya: Music In The Air

In conversation with Ntate Caiphus Semenya on Music, Quincy Jones, Composition and Lion King.

Caiphus Semenya is a South African composer and musician. As a young musician he sang in the cast of the jazz musical King Kong. After moving to the United States in the 1960s he had a successful career as a composer and arranger, including work on the scores for Roots (1977) and The Color Purple (1985).

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

All right. Papa, thank you so much. I'm um very excited that we finally got a hold of you.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

So am I.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Yes. I don't know what pensioners with legendary proportions like yourself do these days, but um I do want to thank you for creating the time uh to speak to us in the African Genesis podcast. Um I'm going to start my inquiry with a a period that I think we often go to uh because you form part of a generation of musicians in South Africa that I think pioneered uh right the pioneering of a certain sound. Uh uh Miriam Mageber uh as well as Huma Sigela. But there are also many unknown names that did not, I think, make it to exile maybe uh that constituted this generation.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

But let us start with with this famous Dorkey House. Tell us about Dorke House, who was there? What did it mean to the cultural milieu of your generation? And am I correct that that's really where the magic was cooked?

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yes, no, you're quite right. Dokkey house um was the home, the hub of South African performing arts culture. Yeah, performing arts culture, not not only music, but Dokkey House is Dokkey House, that's the the building. But inside that building was the Union of Southern African artists. It was an organization that was organized by people like Bo Brad Danpo, Gwigum, you know, or Make Davashi and people like that. We were kids, so I don't know how it came about, you know, because the first time I came to Dokkey House was when we had won a competition that was organized by Dokkey House, which was the union. And uh I was living with my grandmother in Binoni Kituatu. And uh me and three of my friends, we had a group called the Kats and Jama Kids.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

So there was a competition, you know, collocationing, and everybody who was everybody who could sing or who were a group, because Binoli had a lot of groups, you know. But we won first prize. And then we were told, we are not going to be given any kind of money, we are going to be given the honor to come to Dokke House and be members of the union. Right, okay? Because we thought we were going to get money or something, but not even a top. So you come to the union. And of course, the older guys who were the woodpeckers who were older than us, my cousin sang with the woodpeckers. I think JD must have been say about five years older than five, six years older. And then my cousin was also in the Katanjama kids. So it was myself and my cousin and two other guys who were not related to us. So they knew Dockey House. Well, not they knew because they were older than us, they had traveled a lot, you know. And uh, so the day that was picked for us to get there, we went there as a group. But when we arrived there, it was not only us, we didn't know. And there were all kinds of groups, you made groups that we knew, groups that we used to meet when we had concerts, again, because the concerts in the in the 50s, you would never have a concert, just one group. It would be three groups, four groups, you know, sharing the stage, you know, one after the other. And so we found the saints, we found the brown dogs, we found all there was Bo, Bo and Chile, uh, Bo Abigail Kupega, used to sing Libre Makeva. And then uh then we were told now you're all here when the meeting was called. Now we had all met, we found ourselves in a group of people that we knew, some of them we didn't know, that you are here not to come and do your job, you mean your own songs, you're here to come and be part of a musical that Docke House is putting together. And that musical was King Kong.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Ah. Make Davache was a composer on King Kong.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Yeah, yeah, he he but he was not the primary composer, you know. He was um he actually assisted with the arranging. The composer was um, how can I forget? Anyway, the name. The composer of the entire it was um aha, canagema. But uh so McKay, Make Davasha, Kipimweke, and I think a little bit of Brabimhweb, you know, it took part in the arrangements. The arrangements were done by Spike Dlasser. Spike Drasser. And because Spike was a white guy from South Africa, I think he had studied music, I don't know, maybe in England or whatever. I don't know. Like I said, I was only 19 years old.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

But what was this King Kong? If you were to give us the as a musical theater piece, what what kind of sound predominated in the play? Nelibina Kur Nelibina Bina Zejwa.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Yeah, Tod Machigiza was the composer. Now, Bra Tod Tod, again, I'm a kid. I don't know. I mean these are people I never sat down with and and had a discussion because never never whole way to that hierarchy. So I never got a chance to talk to you. But we sang the music that he wrote. Now, Brad Todd also played jazz. And also, I think he was also uh pretty good when it came to classical music. So he was one of those people who was um like um educated, you know, in terms of music, you know. And uh also Mpakala was part of himself, you know.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

So King Kong was singing what?

SPEAKER_02 7:41

We were singing this the music that he wrote, you could say, some of the music because of the era, and I think because uh the producers and the director wanted music that would appeal even to white folks. So it was not Yom Patanga, no? Because Brathot was pretty good with mpatanga too. So he wrote music that was semi, you know, I would say semi-American, more or less, you know. And he tried very hard, you know, to come up with that sound.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

So that the sound, the the the the the theater production could travel, which it did a lot.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Yes, it did. Yeah. So that otherwise, if it was just just basically mpatanga, you know, it would have been difficult. Now, this uh kingdom was actually called a jazz opera. Ah, it was a jazz opera. So uh songs like uh back of the moon, you know, are part of a scene in a shebim, you know, and instead of now uh just reciting all the lines that uh you had studied, you know, you sang some of the lines, you know, back of the moon. So that's what it was.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

It was it if so before the 50s, it seems to me, when I, with my little history, and it's very little, I must warn you, so be very clear to correct me. Music had a very predominant choir tradition. Uh maybe the 30s in South Africa, the twenties. When you read about Charlotte McClack, for instance, uh even um the wife, uh I think it's Matilda Alata with her Congress choir. Uh so McClacker's first travel to overseas was through a choir.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

There was a very strong choir tradition, Auru Diker.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

It seems to me that by the time you were growing up into the musical scene, uh music was now being dominated by quartets. Yeah. Uh I don't know what's the other name, the groups, so to speak. Yeah. For five people, six people, right? Uh tenors and all of that. Yeah. On its way towards soloists.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Right. And it also used the soloist, there would always be a soloist among like the guy who would uh who would sing most of uh the leads.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Yes, yeah, but nonetheless, you would always be you're kind of a group. Yes, you would be a group. Yeah, um, I mean, I I want I'm I'm going somewhere uh to when I want to ask this question in this way because there's something about uh these groups. I mean, also in the US is the Manhattans, it's uh exactly it's groups, yes, and even if in a jazz band there could be um a a Lester Young, he nonetheless normally is part of a band of a band, and and the name of a band is always there, right? Right. Okay, I want to ask about musically from a musical training, musical tradition point of view, what does that tradition mean? If Unobina requiring in theaters, musicals, and you now sing as quartets, as groups, does that does or does that have any impact to the sound? Does it have impact to how you get acculturated into music in any form? Does it have any impact?

SPEAKER_02 12:07

You're quite right, um the perception was incredible, you're quite right. Because I get it, as you mentioned, South Africa was dominated by choirs, I guess. So people like Bum Hapelwa and Boomupedi, Bo Zulu, you know, they wrote all these, you know, beautiful uh choral pieces, you know, I mean choral songs, what pieces? I mean, and because these guys wrote even greater lyrics, you know. So I don't know when, but when I asked Bujom Hootsi, who was a member of the Manhattan Brothers, which was the number one for quartet, you know, they sang. Okay. So Brad Joe told me that uh he and uh it was he and Dambuza Mzete, they decided to form a group because they were influenced by, you know, there used to be films that we used to see. Yeah, and uh a lot of these films used to show um some clips from the US. And in those clips from the US, you know, they were like shots. Like you go to see a feature film and they would have like uh 20 minutes, 15 minutes of Saravon or some groups in the US. I see. Yeah, so the Ink Spots, you know, the Ink Spots now, these were a group from the US. So a lot of our people here copied these groups. You know, that's why you had the Manhattan Brothers, you had the Ink Spots, there was Ink Spots, you had the African Ink Spots, you had uh later on you had the Woodpeckers, you had uh they called themselves Was it hard to think about some solo musician from the 1910s? Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

And from the 1920s, a star was a certain it starts really with the fire. Yes, but what Tomorrow Lidi single stars in your generation, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:22

It comes out now, but the the single star most of the time, what about in Twitter, it still has a group behind it. But when, like for instance, Victor and Raziwan of the Manhattan of the Woodpeckers. Victor was a singer. I mean, he was and he was a hell of a dancer, but he had the wood back the woodpeckers behind him, the other three guys. With Joe Mhoji, with the one I'm telling you about, was with the Manhattan Brothers. He sang most of the solos he and Dambuza Med. The other two were accompanies, but they were always then. So Bujou could stand alone and sing maybe three, four songs by himself. So could Dambuza.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

But as a career, he wasn't a makeba.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

No. But and Miriam Makeba actually sang with the Manhattan Brothers. They, I think uh they discovered her. I don't know where, because like I said, I'm a youngster. I don't know where they discovered her. Because the first time I saw Miriam Makeba, they were singing background behind Miriam. She was in the song. And I remember the song she sang, she was singing sincerely. There's an American song that was a huge success here in South Africa. And uh the Manhattan Brothers, you know, sang with Miriam. Miriam sang the lead, and they were humming behind her and do up and doing all kinds of you know uh uh uh vocal arrangements behind her.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

So that was so most of the soloists that now jump out in the 15 are women, not men.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

I'm coming to that. Yeah, I just want to give this challenge musically. What would you how would you describe the impacts on the texture of music? Because two things are no longer quite predominant in the musical performing arts as something that pops up uh artists. The artists today don't really come out of groups anymore, but most importantly, the choral choir, grand choir traditions uh are no longer the basis of the development of music, right? But again, this musical because you you went to Dokkey and there was King Core. Yeah, what does that do to music that transition from grand choirs uh from theatre musicals to groups and soloists? Is there something that is left behind? Is there something that is born that is new, is particularly powerful? What happens to the to this musical art form with this tr with this transition?

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Okay, you know what happens? Okay, take it from the choir. If you sing in a choir, you hear all the other voices around you. Again, you there will be the lead where they sung by ten people, but every song has the melody part, which is deep, yeah, and then the other parts are accompanying the melody. So now, if you grew up in a choir and you are destined to be like me or a human secular and so on, you are already getting a full orchestral thing about your music. So you can hear much, much, much better than somebody who comes alone has never sung in a choir. That's why when I write songs, I can hear all the parts, how they should go. Whereas a person who never had that experience cannot. And I can, Hugh could, Jonas could, Mbake could, you know, Boobuntu, all of the all of the people that I'm talking about who come from that traditional choir. Now you move from the choir and then you go into a quartet. So all you're doing is that now instead of there's 40 of you, there's four of you, but you're still singing like you are in a quartet. You still have the ear, the ear, yes, you know, wide ear, that's ears. Now, but now you are tailoring it now to only four people. Again, now in that four people, remember when you sing in a choir, if you say, Ha, right? Now, you talk about all that stuff now. You cannot be singing four parts all the time. So one has to lead at some point.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

And then maybe that's where uh improvisation really because you don't quite improvise in a choir a lot.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

No, no, no, no, no, you don't. You can't. They can't you can't improvise because the the choir is strict, you know, you sing what's written, and it's a form, yeah, and it's a form, yeah, yeah. But it's good because I mean it's like an orchestra. A choir is like an orchestra because you hear all those parts. So now, when there's four of you, now you can improvise. Now we sing a song, we we put the melody down, and then now you have to come up and like uh Charlie Parker, you sing, now you've got to sing not the melody as it is, you have to come up with what you think the melody should sound like in this form at that time.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

What does a musical do to a person who you know because I I see the multidisciplinary way with which your musical discipline is cooked in in quite a different tradition, but let's go to to be in King Kong. Uh it's a play, you're singing, there's a band, but you know, it's a play. Yeah, what does that experience give you from a musical tools, musical ear? What does it do to a musician?

SPEAKER_02 21:08

It is now taking you to a higher plane of music now. It takes you now to a higher plane, it sharpens your ears now, and and then and it imposes on you a discipline of listening. Now you're being forced to listen because if you're in a musical, you cannot afford to be looking over there when you're supposed to be looking here, you know, at that instant.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

There's no conductor.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah. The conductors, okay? Yeah. Uti. But you cannot see. But you have rehearsed. And in that rehearsal, it has been drilled in you so that sometimes you don't even hear, you don't even think about the conductor. Because I agree sometimes you're going to turn your back, you know, f from the audience. Now, where will the conductor? He can't follow you. So the whole thing of discipline now is being embedded in you. Baba. That's where the musical becomes very important, Baba. And time, time. If the song that you're singing is supposed to go like this, you have to do it. You can improvise if you want to. No problem. But as long as that lyric, you make sure that the people, when you sing, can understand what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

I ask these questions because I want then to, in your journey, in your career, something interesting that I find curious. Here you are, Union of South Africa, King Kong, which is a theater piece, it's a musical working with I mean Markey Davashi, Baki B. I get it. Yeah. Then you abandon, so to speak, being a singer yourself, you abandon being in a group per se. Of course, even the union of South Africa with Brahue and Jonas Kwangwa, it's very short-lived. You spend the next 10 years or more producing and composing. And three important things there for me, I'm gonna ask you about. One is you start composing for your lava, you start composing uh Miriam, Belafonte, as well as uh then something I don't think any of these people, something that is not in your experience, and you'll explain how Quincy Jones recruits you to write music for roots. This is cinema. Yeah, how the hell did you do that? And when Quincy was asked about you, he says Kaifers invented the transatlantic scoring in film in Hollywood, which became not only instructive, but a framework for the Lion King, but as well as as recent movies as Cry Freedom, Hotel Rwanda, they still use the formula and the framework that you invented. Well, I don't know if I invented it. I mean this is Quincy. Quincy Jones says that transatlantic music scoring in Hollywood is credited, so is label M. They say Kaifas. Yeah but tell me about I mean you have Amu Gaza Lamu Alex, and then Gini Pieta, and you are asked, score a film. Yeah. I've listened to that score very, very closely and many, many times in preparation for this interview. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

Which one? Which score? Roots. Oh, Roots. Yeah. Uh Eric Bank. I can't know where Murika Renki sometimes. Yeah. So there's um, okay, how this happens, you know? The 10 years that you're talking about that I'm writing for Leta, I'm writing for Miriam Makeba, I'm writing T. Something happens to me, but this started when I was with the Katanjama kids, you know, because I found myself sometimes we would be singing songs. Like we would listen to the older guys, and we sing the song. Something in me says, why should we sing it like they do? Why don't we change it here and why don't we change it here? And the guys would argue with me, but the other two guys, my cousin used to argue more with me than the other two guys. And the other two guys say, no, let's try what he says. Maybe, yeah, yeah, maybe that will make us sound different from the other groups. Because all the other groups used to copy the older guys, you know. So I find myself, I'm always intelligent. I'm always trying something new from something that is there. Now, Victor Zolano, of the woodpeckers who wrote most of the music for the woodpeckers, takes notice of me, you know, that uh this kid is always changing things that we know. And then he uh he encourages me, you know. And then when we are when we are sitting like this, you know, he'd be talking about music, and then he would say, and then sometimes he sings a song, I join him. I won't like that casually, not to say now I'm in a classroom. Then I grow up, then I begin, and Braki Pimueketi finds me one day just trying something at Docky House, and he comes in and he says, What's that you were playing just now? I said, No, I'm not a piano player, I was just trying some chords, and he says, No, no, no, no, play it again. And then I play, he says, No, but that's a song. I said, Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Keep in. Sonny just a composer. You're a composer. So he goes into the room where he kept his safone, he comes out with the safone, he says, Okay, play. And I said, But we kid you I give you an arrow, no, play as slow as what you were doing is fine. And then he plays the whole song with me. And we finish, and he looks at me and says, This kid is a composer, you know? And that song gave him caution, tampa-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, you know. And he says, Yeah, you're a composer. And then the following day, my case says, No. But then that thing that uh Brakipi showed that you know I could do this begins to work in me. I have to have, I begin to have confidence. If I hear this music in my in my ear, then I play it, even though I'm not a piano player. Hugh hears me playing, no, Miriam hears me playing uh Homula Muntu. She says, What's that? I said, Gee, you know, I says, No, I can't erotic about a recorder. And then um I'm doing West Wind. And Miriam says, No, I like this song. You know, so I find myself now looking one. Hugh hears me playing Aliseli Dihanda. Hugh says, No, I've got to record this. And all of a sudden I find myself.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Yeah. I used to dance to that song. It used to be a standard song for cha cha cha. Really? I would dance a little cha cha cha. And to ding ding. Aliseli dich. Ding ding. And you did that. Yeah, I wrote that. I wrote that. That's one year.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

That's easy. And then you says, King, I don't know, Michelle. So I says, I'm guy recorded. Yeah, I record it. So it's okay. Baba. And that was Halican. And then I found out, no, wait a minute. Which I did, by the way. Okay. And then that was it. So I spent most of because now I've never studied music again, except Modi Khoiropele. That was not studying, that was listening.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

So now I begin to um deliberately hear music. Deliberately. To say, so I begin to work in my head a song and parts and everything and drums and stuff deliberately. Now there are other things that go with composition and a song. And then that's how it happens. So by the time Quincy Jones meets me, already this thing has grown.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

But Quincy asks you to do something, would you agree that was particularly challenging? Oh yeah, it was frightening. Frightening. It was frightening. Tell me about that. It was frightening. I mean, Roots was um gonna be a very important story. Yeah, it was. A story for Africans across the world because it's about transatlantic slavers.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Very big, as it were.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Very big, you know. And then by then, it's because we had a manager who was managing later, later, you know, a career in singing. And me, he was managing my my um my compositions and publishing because John Levy set me up and he said, You are a composer and you must have a publishing company. I see. And he sets me up, you know. So I've got uh Seminar music, that's that, and that was John. I said, Oh, thank you. So I said, No, you you are. So one day I come in, you know, to the office, and John says to me, Do you know Quincy Jones? I said, Oh, who doesn't know Quincy Jones? I mean, I mean, Quincy says, he would like to meet you. I said, Meet me? Why would Quincy Jones want to meet me? And he says, no, he wants to meet you. Can we get? And then he says, and before I can ask any questions, he says, he heard that you're a composer from from Africa. And he gives me the address. He says, Up to you, you wanna go? And I said, Queen's Jones, you know. He says, I think you should go. Go give it a shot, you know. So gets me.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

These are the A-Listas. I mean, I mean, this is by all definitions at that time.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

This is it. I mean, this is it. So I go, and when I get there to his house, Uber Philippi addressed, because Quincy didn't drive. So I go to his house and I meet him, and he's with Ray Brown. I don't know if you know who Ray Brown is. He's a famous bass player. I mean, Ray Brown, king of jazz bass. And they are both there. And they say, hi. And I say, hello, you know. So you understand you're from South Africa. Yes, I am. And we understand you're a composer. I said, uh, well, I write music. But say, but no, they said you're a composer. I said, well, I well, no, I write music, you know. And they said, uh, well, we're doing a story. You know, we're doing a story, and the story needs some music. And and they said, Do you think you can you can do it? I said, Well, I'm it depends on what it is, you know. And so, Quincy, they run the story to me and they give me in Chile what they call um I guess the the sheets in Chile. But there's a way for it. They give me the script, and I looked at the script, and they say, and as you can see, the guy, this is a fishing village, and we want a song like a celebratory because the fishing at this point in this in this village is great. You know, the great harvest, you know, they've harvested great, you know, uh schools of fish. So can you do it? And I went, I said, yeah, I'll try. You know. Then they say to me, Oh, by the way, uh, African music is is um is pentatonic, right? What does pentatonic mean? Okay. Pentatonic means five. Yeah, five notes. Do, re, mi, fasol. But in pentatonic case, there's no fourth. It's do, re, mi, sola. Which is if we're talking about C, it's C, D, E, G, and A. Right? And then they tell me that's, and and I said, no, it's not. They said, no, but that's what I said, well, um, maybe that maybe that's what you read, but it's not. You know? And they said, what do you mean? I said, because I can I can um I can challenge that. They said, and I was, I was in Twileg. I really didn't, I just felt that I have to.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

You have to take a stand.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Yeah. And I said, no, it's not, you know. And then they they they said, uh, how do you how do you prove that? I said, well, let me let me let me sing you a couple of songs, right? Just a couple of songs that are traditional. And there was a song which were we were taught. Where did we get this song? We heard it on one of these uh Hugh Tracy's intersect. Huey Tracy used to record a lot of people Ragudi Plaza. Then there's this song, Hiaya, yeah, yeah, Kulonyaga Sili Manga, Kulonya Sili Manga. Now there are thirds. There's a flat seven, there's a flat third three in there, and I tell them, I say, that's a flat third. You know, if I say da da da da is a flat third. If we're talking about the key of C, that's E flat. So you are saying we just sing five notes, which is uh C D E. You're not talking about the flat that we sing. We also have the you know the in the sharp sharp four, which is uh, you know, a G sharp. I mean uh F sharp G flat G flat. And he said, you know all that? I said, yeah, it's because we sing these things. I'm saying these things. And then I said to them, and I've been in this country for quite a while, and I listened to the blues that you played, you know, that flat seven and the flat the flat three and the and the and the sharp five, that sharp four, that's all African. And they said, You're kidding. I said, I'm not kidding, it's the truth. I can sing songs that have these flat sevens and flat thirds and all that. And I sang some of them. I played them on piano again, here, here, here, here. Like he said, you got the job.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

So but who then coined what you were doing and what you ultimately did in roots, transatlantic scoring, which they describe in academia as a specific new way of translating African American jazz and African music.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Where there's an acknowledgement that these two are not the same.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Yeah. Well, they're not the same, but they are so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Because remember that the African Americans' experience out there, it was not only people from Ghana, there were Nigerians, there were people from Central Africa. So I used to tell Quincy, I said, you are like Pan-Africans in the show. So even musically, you know, you may find that, of course, pentatonic is true. We do sing it, but it's one of the scales that we sing. It is not the scale in Africa. And just recently I discovered that Ethiopia has five, six types of pentatonic. The whole keyboard, but they only take five notes and they make music out of those five notes, five notes out of the whole keyboard. So at that time, so I'm using these things, okay? So I say to them, okay. So I write the song about the uh the fishing village. The fishing village. And then and it was a it was a simple song, but what happened, guy wanna, and then I write it down. So I go, they give me the date when to come, and I take letter because I had rehearsed the song. Yeah, I'd rehearsed it with her. And then we get to they were doing this at AM Records. And then when I get there, at the time that Quincy said I should be there, I'm a timekeeper, you know, boom, I'm there. And then Quincy comes out, he says, Are you ready? I said, Yeah. He says, Where's the song? So I give it to you. And he looks at it, hmm, looks good. Says, Okay, let's get in there. Now, as we go into the studio, there's a whole band, you know, the strings and you know, cycles. They were doing a movie. It was called IO, Ayo of the Village, something like that. I've forgotten it. That was before Roots, by the way. Yeah. So, so, and he says, Okay, now, uh, have you ever done film before? I said, No. So, you never. I said, No. And he says, Okay, uh, this is how it works, okay. You, and he says, You see, you'll see the number. He says, Can you run that thing? So they run the film. And he says, Watch the numbers. So I watched the numbers. And he says, You see, you see, there it stopped right there. If you write the song, it should fit in from that one to 30. Okay. And I said, Okay. And he said, So you think you can do it? I said, I can try. And he says, Okay. All right. And he says, uh, so I say, so there's the song. He says, no, no, no, you're gonna do it. I said, me, and he says, yes, you, you wrote it. And he looks at me, and I look at him, and Pilohaga is being my heart, and I have to say, come on, keep quiet. And I said, Okay. Your heart is betraying you. It's betraying. And I've never done this, and all these people come on, are giants such as, you know. So they put the thing up there, and I say to Letter, Leta's very sharp, you know, because we've done the song, and then it runs, and in a hurry, and then we go one, two, three, can I where we should go in, and we sing, you know. And the whole thing we sing it, we sing it until where it ends, and boom! And Quincy says, And then we hear applause, we turn around, the whole band is standing up. So, what about that? And Quincy says, So, anyway, because I give they work at timer, you've done it. Kiri. Now, are you going to put in some instruments because you let me know says this is perfect? It doesn't need anything else. You and Larry, I mean, the two voices, what you did, man, this is it. It works.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

It doesn't need anything else. Whatever we do, we're going to spoil it. Also, this was the basis upon which, when they then did roots, he didn't think twice.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Right, right. So, so we go out. When we go out, now he comes, he takes us out, and he closes the door behind him, and he looks me and later in the face, he says, You have made me the proudest man ever today. And I said, What? And he says, you know, when I told him that I had given this to an African to write, they all didn't think that it was going to work. This thing was ooga booga, you know. And he says, What you have done, you have proven everybody wrong in there. First day, first time you ever did this, and you're right on it. And his brother, and he had to. He said, you're mainly proud. You'll be hearing from me. You know? So I leave. So this uh thing, yeah, roots comes a couple of years later. You know.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

And now you had gained.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like you were ready for that. No, no, no. So because now, and remember that when I did that, that was for that. This is not what I do. I do other things. Now I'm learning when you write for film, you write that mood.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

It's a mood. It's a description of a of a scene. Of a scene. You're setting a scene. Right. Accompanying a specific performance. Exactly. So how would you say distinguish it as it were from composing for a musical? Yes. I mean, I know that the characters in a musical sing. Yeah. But is the music process for composition anyway different because you're still accompanying actors and a sort of uh drama?

SPEAKER_02 45:10

It's different because again, there is there's a thing that we call uh me and my friends book. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

So it's announces um the coming of the monster.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Yeah, suspense and happiness. Yeah. So that's what I discovered. It's not the same thing, you know. Because then when he calls me for roots, he calls me and he says, you know, oh, by the way, it's because they had tried other African artists that were there, you know. But uh a lot of them failed. You know, now fortunately for me, and they were surprised that I understood the blues. They were surprised that Kinekeeping caught progression at the blues, and that uh I understood both you up, Yoranikola Miranda sincerely. Yes, I know, I know the court structures of that. So they were surprised, and still I could do my own African music. And that's why Quincy said, no, we got to write kaifers because he understands us and he understands where he comes from. That's how the marriage, he can be right there. The transatlantic right, yeah. Because he would say something, something, and I would say, I would say, oh, yeah, that's a 145 or whatever, you know, one, two, and and five. You know, he says, Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, okay, you know it. You say, yeah. And then I would have mpatan and says, now that's you, so that until and then not only Mpadang, but also traditional music. Because I know traditional music, and then choral music, all those things, the the hours that I spent, singing, they came to work.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

In film scoring.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Yeah, in film scoring, because look on now, when you do film scoring, your attitude and your perception of what is required of you should be right on the mark. Mama. And then uh then uh I remember when uh they wanted us to to do the opening of roots. You know, the thing that uh I came up with worked, you know, because uh, and Quincy would look at me and I'd say, well, you know, let's try it. He said, man, it looks good. I mean, to me, I don't know, you're always, you know, like uh rethinking yourself. I said, no, let's try it. And then it works, you say, I told you. You know, so that's how we get we got to know each other. So he trusted me so much musically because there's no time to waste when you're giving.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

But they say you are excruciatingly a perfectionist. Have you heard this? Yeah, I have why do they say that?

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Uh because you know, I now I believe that if you're going to do a job, do it and do it right.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Let me ask it differently. You know, I find that sometimes African composition, music, performance, people like to make it overly intuitive. Uh, it mustn't have structure, it mustn't be overly prepared, otherwise, as this is Africa, I na moya. Yeah, they say you are the opposite of that. You say an African piece is going to hit the nose properly.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

But you see, this is this is a cop-out. You see, the people who say all these things, Bakhulas equal case, there are no Africans. You know, if you listen to those guys, Bagodi Plaza, playing those drums, it's right on. You can't go there and miss your beats. You know, we will feel boom. So it's strict because they are dancing to what you're doing. So don't get out of the way. So because Africa, because we don't listen to ourselves with real ears that want to know and understand, we think our thing is just no, no, listen.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Yes. No, it's not.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Yeah, no, I didn't. And if I swear you, it's an onset, but I'd to hold. But somebody who can do it, mutorial, as if your most frustrating moment in a journey of maybe making an album who was the most difficult person to put online to do these notes properly.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Yeah, I think you can spoke. But no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 50:45

I fortunately for not really. Um the people I've worked with, most of them okay never complain and now in the north. This thing is taking too long.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

You are a perfectionist.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

No, I'm not a perfectionist. You sound like it as you speak. I don't understand the thing is a perfectionist. Yes, that's so.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

So I mean, look at you. Your your association of music with arithmetics. Yes. But you know, it's some spirit that came on top of me, therefore, I can go all directions. No, we're not getting meth. It's pure math. If you can't hear the mathematics, don't get frustrated.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

You know, because also, and and if let's take math. Okay, arithmetic, which is everybody understands, I get that little step. Yes, yes. So even in music, it's the same. Like, for instance, I've I've I've I've uh okay, we've got a band. I could now we've got something, then wait to this thing. Now, I usually say to the guys, listen here. You know the people who come to see us, they have our CDs. Did you know that the audience, some people actually listen to the guitar?

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

Yeah, some people listen to the bass and they know it. But it's what I mean to do. Aha.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

We know I mean, not yet uuhu, rarasagui too, aha.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

So, and I tell them, you know, Peter Mole, because you can play.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

Audience, you have never had an audience is so, hey, why not?

SPEAKER_00 53:08

Could this be the reason why? Okay, let me ask the question differently. By the time you you do your what is it called when uh it's a solo album? Yeah, has some fancy name as well. Uh, your first solo album is in the 80s, yeah. Early 80s. That's late. Yeah, it is. It is. Is it because you were such a perfectionist that you waited all these years just to give us, I think it was um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

Uh comes from there, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

In the first album, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

The zipping gum.

SPEAKER_00 53:52

Yeah. Were you were you working on them all those years that they become so perfect? I mean, why why only do your first solo album after so many years of composition, of achievement, having first tasted um that you can actually be a solo artist, you can sing, you can be a star. Why didn't you have the pressure immediately to be on the star platform, to be in the forefront, to be known?

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Whatever, this is one thing when I'm reaching people don't know. Before I sing I'm really a composer, I'm more dedicated to composition than standing in front of people. As a matter of fact, Hobo and I think I'm very shy in the must say. And I've always been like that, you know. It's not a passion with me to stand there like Bole Tali Woh, Bo Miriam, we love that, waity, boy, bella fun. With me, it's it's a it's a thing because I I sang with a group for a long time. So my upbringing was singing with a group. To stand alone, not for I cannot do it, but it's not as great as when I'm with other people.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

But do you accept that the pressure nonetheless bends a lot of people to want to be the centerpiece? I mean, who knows the composers of songs? Yeah, no. People don't then like pay close attention that, oh, there's a music in the air. Yeah. He actually composed and arranged it. Most people just want Mammaletta, okay, music in the air.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

Do you agree that the the nonetheless, this is a genuine thing that people ban or Retsi, but this is my song. I'm actually going to sing it myself, particularly when they can.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

Well, you know, these songs, the funny thing is that when when I when I started doing this is because I said to myself, the song that I'm writing, I don't think Hugh can do this. I don't think Guango can do this. And I hope like it is states. So which American is going to sing Memaswane? And the song kept in my head, I don't know, let me write it down. And then I sang it myself. Because nobody can interpret that song like I can.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

I see.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

And I'm not saying people cannot sing it, they can. But to interpret it exactly like me.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

The way you were hearing it, you knew this one, I have to do it.

SPEAKER_02 56:55

I have to do it myself.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

It comes from that place, then the pressure to be the star.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

Right. So I told Leta what I have to do this, because nobody can do this.

SPEAKER_00 57:05

I'm curious then. I'm gonna ask a couple of silly questions. Does your love relationship, romantic, powerful, very committed, long with Mama Leta service your compositions? No. So there's no way you were thinking about her.

SPEAKER_02 57:31

No, no, no. But you see, by the time she met me, I was already who I am.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

Agreed. In terms of composition. Okay. Music in the air, you know, she was. No, she chose the song. I see. No.

SPEAKER_02 57:49

I was always playing this song. The story is uh, music in the air is interesting. I used to play this, uh she was working with Harry Belafonte. And then Harry Belafonte calls me because uh he wanted some new songs for later. They would do some songs. Now, Sisi always, okay, GC always trusted me, you know. Hugh Mwale some songs and so on. And then by this time, we'll die, hi no, you have to come in and use because Harry went from songs. So during breaks, you know, just to while away time, I would play music in the air on the on the piano.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

But how were you playing it? You obviously composed it.

SPEAKER_02 58:41

Yeah, I composed it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:43

No, I was just playing it. What I'm asking is what was in the head? What were you thinking about her?

SPEAKER_02 58:48

Uh uh. No, I was just saying, I was just playing this song. I don't know if you know Pine Machati, now this song has a beautiful bass line. This this song. When I was a boy, you know, I didn't know I we sang this song, but now actually I never sang it in the choir. My sisters and my brother, because one of my brothers was a uh music conductor, Oscolo. So he used to sing this song, and there was uh this uh bass line that used to really fascinate me in the song, that song. So when I was doing music in the air, you know, I was thinking about it. Well, you see that that song or that song, when it says, which is a nice line, but listen to the bases. So so when I was playing, when I was doing so, what is calling you is the bass line. Yeah, I like this. That's why that's so do you always compose the bass provocation?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

I know some people are hearing are hearing horn, some are hearing drums.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

What what always brings like the this the muscle of composition? Is it the bass bass? The bass, the bass, bass. I can hear it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

Yeah, I can hear. I can remember tom bum bum bum.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

No, but the bass bass line here so that bass thing, because it was it's more more quiet and as you saw to bass each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:03

Yeah, yes, yes. So you you you were taught in southern Sasutu. So the Sutu.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:10

Yeah, well, anyway. So but when I went to Speedy, yes, yeah, which is so when when I went to live with my grandmother, the only school that uh was available more in there was not Speedy, never it's a Southern Sutu. I see. Agreed Supedi is supposed to be northern and southern suit. Yes, so it was not difficult for me. So this one has sootuseki said, but most of my school was more in Southern Suit.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:42

Who, as you shape yourself as a composer, who was the uh model who played some serious role modeling? I mean, we all, although we are taking a unique journey into the unknown, we nonetheless use. Yeah, somebody who who who who is this uh important influence? Victor.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

Did he know? Um well, like I said, you know, he used to in Telebi to help us as kids when we were singing. Yeah, he would come in sometimes and find us rehearsing, you know. And he would say my wit in, hey, put and go up, eating them, go my in. And then you would we would sing says, I I I eat roll and don't. And then he would just go then about the nose, the parts of our nuts. And then because we could all sing, remember, choir, so what dorimasolati does your pelea. Yes, yes. And then we would look at this, and it would sound nice. Wow, this is nice. And so, yeah, my wet. So I would take that exercise book home, then the one Aru Correct, and I would look at it, and I would see who and then I would use, I would apply that method, yeah, to to what we would do. And sometimes the guys would say, nonsense, if you know what. So one day he discovered us in an argument, and I had written this song. And then uh they were having, like I said, my cousin, you know, hi Pina, hi Moratiwa, so Poponi, so it's a friend of Poponi says, I lake a man. So he walks in. So when he walks in and he says, I say I agree, shall do the hand on which I learned woman. I I am being upstairs. No, it's not that bad. You can learn this happy nancy cow in Nancy. So I said the part that I correct that. Okay, good. It was perfect. I didn't do an composite image of my own. It's just that he arrangement password. And then then he actually is a person. Only Git Tomutum. Yeah. And he saw this in me. And then every time there was a song, he would call me first. And Baba Mbana saw because he had discovered for they don't have the talent I have for listening. I see. For listening.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

It seems to me that I mean one of the composers underrated, but I think uh with the music I know then is available because he lost so much uh is Gibson Kent.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:28

And you managed in uh your life to cross path with him.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

Uh just a short introduction to that moment of working with him. Uh Manana and the Jazz Prophet.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:49

Which was musical. It was a Dog House production. Yeah. How was he? Gibson was gifted, musically was gifted. Um I would say he came from an era because he was older than us. He came from an era 40s. We were in the 50s. We were now in the 60s. So Rona, we came from the era 50s. The 40s they were still most in the choir. Yeah. It was still. So I think from what Bobu Joe and the Manhattan Brothers told me, in the 40s was 31 to add quartets. So in the 50s, is that what the Manhattan Brothers had started that era? Lady Ink Sports, African ink sports, Bosiba. They started the era quartets. They had started that. So we come in in that era. So whatever we were doing, was was also there, but he did not grow up in it. So Naatako, he used to come to Dokkey House. And then he was very friendly, of course. So one time he took me and Sidney, Sidney Mataku, and he said he had a song. I used to play it alto as well. And he wanted to go record. Gibson used to write songs even for girl groups. And he says, okay, can you can we sing this song, Babat? Can you play it? And then so Narin Nali Sidney. There was another guy, but Nali Sidney Ratanaka is saxophone. And then about Ruta and that that song. Yeah, it was one song, yeah. Just one song. And then we went to the studio the following day and we recorded, recorded that song. Again, good. He came to Dockey House. He found us there. Because we were boys, I mean, to him. And then because we were quick. Now he was impressed when I was that quick. I got what he was saying. It didn't take that long. So every time he would come here, he would come, and then but he was friends with Leta's friend, Mabel Mafuya. Mabel Mafuya was like Leta's big sister. And Mabel used to be also Patti Dokke. Like I said, Dokkey House was, everybody was there. And so Mabel comes to already King Kun King Kong if I did a guest run. Now this is in the 60s now. 60, 60, 61, 60. Let me see 61, 62. I think it's 62, 63. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:01

Well, and then the jazz profit would have been in 62 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:04

Yeah, in yeah, 62. I think it was 1962 or 1963 because Kist America got 64. Yeah. And then so Mabel comes to us, he says, who keeps seeing a massive. Oh yeah, Obra Gibb, Arya, who keep us twos or this to revise. So une play, and he wants us to participate in the play that he has in mind. Ow. Gibson, play. So can we meet me? So we went there and Gibson was there, and he had the play written. Again? And then he said, and he was reading it to us and telling us the story. And he said, and I who maybe unfellogues. Sydney Mota. All of you, you can help me bring this to life. Because you've been the Bedina Makhu, you know, Bombomutu and Vata Bom Masoja Navata from the Saints. Again? Nanekta from the cousins, letana ta from the swing sports. So you are used to this music, and then you can come up with songs, you know, for the music. I'll write some of the music. Yeah what? Oh roll, oh no, fine. So Hadama, of course, we read play and we were laughing. But Mabel said, no, no, I don't say. So anyway, so he started, then he came to Mabel, and then we started talking about it, talking about it, talking about it. Finally we were convinced that we should help him because, you know, why not? You know. So we went to Dockey House and he got some other people, but get uh some other artists, and that's how Manana's just prophet was born. And then being Gibson, and Gibson says, I think who's Lali Nancy and Lali leading it. So Mabel, Mafuya, Mabel was the funniest woman I know. And Mabel are let's play husband and wife. So let's then we became, you know, the the the whole cast. So you played. So I played the lead, I was husband, yeah. I was mad. Yeah, but just win with this uh one song when he wants to to in chile to recruit me. Am I dying or what? Just one minute, my lord. Jace, what wait just one minute. I have uh just give me a torch for this long, long journey. Just one minute, my lord, something like that. And so so, but then but then we changed the play as we go along, because he came, I think Gibson must have been a teacher at some point, because he had that teacher meant mannerisms about his. And we said, Yeah, because the first time I came across the word abject, poverty. Yeah, it's in Mananda, it's just property. And then I say, So song we were reading Ravalasker, indoor abject poverty. He says, No, I mean that's that's when you're really poor. Yeah. Satyabana man's a lotion, people are not going to understand all this. Object poverty. Object poverty. But he was funny too, and he would laugh. I didn't this out in the city, this is our ball. So we opened Kumaimai. I think that's where we opened then too, if I'm not wrong. Maybe later I can put it. But we opened Kumaimai, and he just wanted to test out intuitive. And I don't think the the audience was paying. And we tested it, and people loved it. And I remember, but they were not getting this the the play start.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:11

And people were just but reactalibi na fair.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:16

Yeah, reactor be enough. So every I can break. So keep syndrome. You see, we are losing in and saying that. And he did not understand right. It's because he did English. I don't go to City in the mango. And then maybe because maybe he was very smart. And the people loved it when a very changer. And then he never forgot us for that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:56

I do want to ask before we come to the contemporary and conclude the I notice each and every one of the Union of South Africa, not the artists. Brah, you, yourself, and people don't normally know, you know, I I was on radio and I used to play with and and that's why I was ending with Gibson because you know, they are see necessarily feel as a kariki. No, no. What is that about?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:07

Well, you know, again growing up from where we grew up, in the families that we grew up in. Again, most of our families, they are Christians. We used to go to church, my grandmother would call Aria. You know, Aria, Aria, and I know Ria Kiriki. And that's where that's where I learned really to actually admire the music and uh and also admire the people who were like um there's there's this guy that um used to sing in terri um Kidumetsu Humura, you know, how he used to start that song. It was fantastic. It was very musical. So that that was also in was was part of our our experience, life experience, you know, that um if you wanted to communicate with them like I did in Co see Cigarette, it was at that time the murders in the train.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:14

Yes, it was in the 90s. I think it's in the same album, if I'm not mistaken, but it's around it's at it's actually addressing the murders in the trains. Right. Uh the fights of so-called ANC and Gata and all of those things. Right. Yeah. Right. Interpreter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:36

Baba. And I got my cousin that beautiful voice. My voice is not going to work. Your voice would, Baba. So we we how you communicate with our people in in this kind of uh period, but they will listen. And they did. Because I met or something. Deep and wood. Then this is suit in the size. So all these things is becoming is part of you being part of the community and having the pulse of the community in your thumb to know what your people need. That's why you can say and they respond. Because you're talking about a thing they know. It's not if I say I love you for sentimental reason by or abject poverty. Yeah, but abject poverty. But to me, there was a new year. But if you sing or remember everybody loves me, what do you think is your best is your best song? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:42

If you were to define Kaifar Siminya, you say one, two, and three, which would be like to say uh let's say you arrive in a completely unknown universe, parallel universe. Okay, and all they know is your music, and they must put a face to the music. Which songs would you say these are the songs that define my fifth-year career? Just two or three.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:14

No, no, I'll tell you what, because right now I've uh nine new songs that I intend to record. So until I do that, I cannot. Because some of the songs that I you cannot commit to favourites until I do that, because the the ones that I have now, okay. Yeah. And then only then, then we can have this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:41

We can have this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:43

Let's conclude with the academy. Tell us about the academy in Soe too.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:48

Before we do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:50

By the way, uh, music in the air, I'm sure you're still into it. You know who Leta, because she used to listen to me when I was doing later what like I was telling you, okay? So when she was recording the album for AM Records, her balpet was saying to her, What other songs do you have? Because I don't want you to sing American songs. And Leta said, He has a song. And I said, I have a song. What song is that? Yeah. I don't know. King and Mutoroi Sanuka man. They want to get it. Oh, Kara, oh, that one. Aria, you're naive. I don't think so. And then Hap said, uh, what are you all saying? And she says, Because he has a song. And Heb says, okay, play it, let's hear it. And I did say, Heb said, that's a beautiful song. I'll get somebody to write us an English lyric. And then this guy with the mono in the album, Uti. And then I gave it to him. The guy says, Wow, this is nice. And then about in a week he had written music in the air. But his latest choice can I link that song Otto.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:08

Technically. It is normally in any way related to her.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:13

Yeah, I wrote that for her.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:16

About her? Yeah. Okay. At least I kind of know that. But I mean, I I I thought maybe it would be a difficult question to answer.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:26

No, I no, no, no, that's that's not difficult.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:28

What is the academy about that you are building in Sowetu? And maybe what about the state of South African culture are you addressing with that academy?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:46

If you allow me to give you just a brief reasons behind it. When I left here in 1964, 64, yeah, 64, 65, to go to the States. We were all in King Kong. Hugh, myself, Guangwa, though our roles were different, Hugh and Guangwa were in the pit. In the band, I was on stage acting and dancing and singing. But we were great friends. And then so the day Hugh left, because Miriam had left before, and she got a scholarship for him. So he's over there. And then Bangwa, we go to England in 1961. Bangwa leaves from London to go to the States. Liana has got a scholarship. So I'm left with my friends, my two friends are gone. And they say, no, one day, if we're there, we will try to see Korukata. And if you don't come, we don't know, but we shall see. Okay. So they go there. But Spawn or comes up, right? So when Spawn O comes up, the union can tell members the body are union, but then they say Kaifers should be part of this. I was not, I was in I was in Manana, the Jess Prophet.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:26

They removed you from Abject Povert.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:28

Yeah. To sponno. So anyway, I left this porn on. So when when I get there, arranged it for me to go to the school they went to, which is Manhattan School of Music. So when I get there, and then uh I went with Kwanga. So when I got there, so they were expecting me there. But I'm 25 years old. And then they give me, they say, oh, oh, yeah, so bamper music to read. I cannot read music. Bampa, they start you off with what they call ear test. They say this is the keyboard, right? You know a keyboard, right? Yes, I know. Okay. This note is a B flat. Then they hit a C. What is this? I said it's a C. This is an F, and this one is a B flat. What's what's that intellectual happy B flat again? What do you call a B flat flat seven? Oh, okay. And so so so so. My friends about no, you've got a very good ear, and you can hear. Okay, but uh sheet of music. Can you play this piece? Kid I can't read. You can't read? No. Nothing? Oh, I can't read. I mean I never went to school for this. Okay. But you play a little bit of saxophone too, don't you? Yes. And Guta and your friends very actually Limo Piano, you fool around a little bit here, yes. But you can't read. Well, it's very difficult. We can't take you. Unfortunately, Malawa, the state does not allow age group, 14-year-olds. Your friends were different. So anyway, aka now, my friends tell me, I give Hugh, why tell me we had a problem? Hugh, they thought, I mean, papers used to write, if you can find Hugh in the old papers, Hugh is a jazz musician. And they almost want to tell him Iris Davies sometimes, Clifford Brown and so on. So Hugh now tells me, says, you know, when I got here, they gave me that ear test and I got it, they said, fine. And they are a piece of music. And the country now Hugh, because I can have a mo King Kong, and then Zever Bob, so they read a little bit. They could see. So when they showed them who could at least human. Then they gave him the trumpet now. Play the trumpet. After he played, they said, you don't know. Oh, they asked him to play a song that he loves. An American startup, whatever song. I get it, these guys are good musicians, but Tesla. And he played, I think, Joyce Spring, but one of these American things. So they played with him after Festival. Yeah, very good. Good ear musically, you are fine. But you don't know the trumpet, not at all. Your sound is terrible, the way you in your ambush is terrible. Your fingering is terrible. So we'll have to take you to the very beginning of how to play the trumpet. Hugh was shocked. And then I guess what a bunky sa guy said. Hugh is now 20. He could not believe that I knew where I come from. I knew how I grew up. So I swallowed my pride. And they played better than me. Guangwa went through the same thing. But when I we thought better of a chance, I see the point.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:57

Yeah. This is why we need an academy. Exactly. I see. I see. Because all of these beautiful singers in South Africa don't know how to read or write music.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:11

Or write music. Or play the trumpet correctly. The saxophone got a hey, so and so. Mopilum American. You don't know that instrument. They have mastered the instruments. And then I got to be lucky. As you know, I worked with Canon Ball Adiling, one of the best saxophone players, in the US, and I wrote music for him. And he played the music. And then sometimes because South Africa, then he would tell me about music. And then when you listen to them, take a big band, when you listen to big bands, Zamokai, they don't play in tune, cow fair. That's because the training is not there. There's always something not right. But when you listen to those guys, how are they let the read section play? They are all untighted. Everything. You can listen to all the big bands in America. There is no band in South Africa that can compete with them. And it's not because they are traveler. They come from school. They studied since Bani 10 years old, seven years old. So Hugh was hitting with kids who were 13 years old, and here in South Africa was regarded as close to Miles Davies, and it was very far away from Miles Davis. But Mohaim, the paper said, Huma Sikella, you must Jonas Guangwa gave me to a kaiwinding, which was wrong. Very wrong.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:46

So the Soweto Academy seeks to address that.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:51

We want to address that, you know, and we've been, we've been, I know, you know, like uh, and I've been fortunate, for instance, to have friends like Bo Bo Mutual, Bo Wayne Henderson, you know. Wayne Henderson, I mean, I used to spend a lot of time Lee Wayne, and we used to write in telearrangements. But by the way, I wrote arrangements, Lou Wayne Henderson. Sale, Tali Jabu, Harry Belafonte. And then I discovered Wayne knows much more about music than I do. He can score it, he can do all kinds of things. So I learned from them because I was not until ashamed to say, I don't know this. Can you show me? And Wayne would show me, and he would look at me waiting with that wishing I had gone to school like he did. You know, and he would say, Man, if you had studied, man, you would be a bitch. You know, when will it be ready?

unknown 1:31:54

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:56

Well, we are we should be starting very very soon, but uh the whole idea that I had in mind in Chile is not going to come to fruit, fruition, fruit, whatever. Because uh for some reason, in here in this country, we are not like Bo Oliver Tambo or Bo Kesha, we don't take uh education seriously. It's it's one of those things, you know, and especially when it comes to arts education, performing arts education, they don't see value in it. You know, and I don't want to say who and who, but I will say that Mteatwa, when we first talked to Mteatwa, who was the Minister of Arts and Culture, then Mcesa saw the dream, that's why it's standing there. But everybody who followed him did not follow where he left off. Because they don't have the passion, you know, for our children, because it's not about me.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:55

It's not about spin cars. Yeah, as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:59

They don't have the passion, and they expect and they like to talk about international, you'll never reach international standards. I can tell you that. I know how the international standards are much higher than Runa. You know, and it looks like we are very satisfied with mediocrity. And our children have the talent. The talent is there. All they need is an institution to take it to the next level. That's all they need. But nobody's prepared to give them that chance. And then Ronahey, okay, we can praise our composer, whatever it is, whatever it means. But it means nothing if these children don't have the same tail. The chance that Bo Hugh had. If he had not left, he wouldn't have been.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:57

And he was dead by world standards.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:59

Exactly. Exactly. And we want our kids to do that. They can, they've got the intuli. There's a lot of intuitive talent. Just like I was, just like Leta was, just like Miriam was, but we were God blessed. You know, I'm blessed where I couldn't tell. I'm blessed. And it was all because Budimum Pile, that extra something that other children don't have, and not every child is going to have it.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:33

That's why we need the academy.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:34

That's why we need the academy so that it can come out of them eating. It was there.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:42

Bobra, Bobra, Mike, Avise, they never went to school. But they established in Palkango Road, Sanukanayan, was established by people who never been to school. But they established a South African sound eating. But now it has to go to the next level. And we have a government now. When they did these things, there was no black government. They did this. Now we have the intel. We have the state. We have the state coffers now. Why state coffers is on the childhood? Because if you've got an educated into performing arts into youth, it brings money into the country. Part of the United States into the treasury is full of performing arts.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:46

Oh, well, it will also make us have an upright spirituality.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:50

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:53

No, thank you so much, Papa. You have promised the second version.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:58

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:59

After the nine songs.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:00

After the night songs.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:01

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:02

We will have them.

unknown 1:36:03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:04

I hope I live up to the promise. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:08

I have no doubt that you will. The sun is out, but thank you so much. And uh, I will give you 12 months and then come back for those songs.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:19

All right. Well, that we shut shut up. Okay. Thank you, comrades.