16th Africa Day Lecture: Prof. Anthoni Van Nieuwkerk - Africa, Diplomacy & the New Global Order.

Prof. Anthoni van Nieuwkerk joins Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi for a wide ranging conversation on Africa’s future, South Africa’s declining diplomatic weight, the crisis in US/SA relations, coups on the continent, Madagascar, Sudan, the DRC, and whether Africa is prepared for a fractured global order.
A hard but necessary conversation on power, democracy, sovereignty, and Africa’s place in the world.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Okay. Now, prof, I don't know that in many ways than one. This is the 16th session of Taboombeggy Foundation Africa Day activities here in Cape Town. Maybe as an opening question, your reflections thus far, ma. My sense is we had a business break first on uh nepads and it turning half quarter of a century, 25 years. Then we moved to the constitution with uh collaborations with parliament. And uh today's the lecture. Yeah. Um there's still more activities, obviously, but I wanted to get your sense of our programs thus far. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Well, you know, I think uh to start off with, one wants the Africa Day lecture series of events to be celebratory, uh, uh, to acknowledge the achievements of 15, 16 years or more, to celebrate Africa's independence, its agency, its ability to stand up, face the world, uh, the entrepreneurship and the innovation of the growing group of young people, the opportunities we face and take. But at the same time, we are also reflective, and this is my observation about this week. At the NEPAD breakfast, we were asking 25 years later. The architect of NEPAT was sitting in the room. We joined him and then we asked, led by the CEO of the development agency currently, where are we, where is Africa 25 years later, in terms of the developmental agenda? Similarly, there's a refrain. When you reflect on the constitution, its achievements, its ability to sustain us as a nation, to be a moral compass, to guide us, to speak to the challenges of ordinary people since 1996. Where are we? Are we better off? And there were voices in the room, in both rooms. On Nepad, we don't quite see the progress. And on our constitution, does the constitution resonate with the next generation of young people? They are telling us, frankly, in the room, again with the architect sitting in the room, how does the constitution help us to escape poverty and bring stability and dignity to us as people? That's a tough one. I expect the our lecture that is coming is going to ask similar hard questions. We want to celebrate, but also is Africa united? And and the caliber of our speakers, uh a very prominent Nigerian intellectual, politician uh and academic with his colleagues will ask us, I think, as South Africans, are we together? Remember when Mr. Rumbeki was the president, he assisted Nigeria to return to democratic rule. And he involved us as civil society, non-state actors, to go there, meet the Nigerians, work through the issues of governance and democracy and rights, human rights. I remember I was there with Aziz Pahad the late. That was a significant intervention. Imagine now the time has come so many years later. Shouldn't a Nigerian delegation come and visit some Africans to say, are you truly African? Are we welcome in your country? How do we build unity of purpose? Because for me, the overriding question, I guess, in all of the week's activities, also engaging younger people later on next week, is Africa ready and prepared for what is coming over the next couple of years? A very disturbed, fragmented global order, predators looking for opportunities, Africa rich in natural resources and human and social capital. Are we able to say to the world, we work together to face what is coming? We want to negotiate and bargain with you, the Europeans, the Americans, the Gulf states, the Chinese, the Russians, but on our terms. We want to extract from you what you want to extract from us, a fair and uh equal uh playing field. Are we able to say that we are ready for this? And if we are not, if NEPAT is not making the necessary progress, if our constitution is perceived to be failing the next generation, if our young people feel that political elites can no longer be trusted with the truth, what is it that we have to rebuild? So this is a difficult week in the sense of answering difficult questions.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

I I get that sense too, and um your participation intellectually as you mark it, it goes very far back into the years. Um and you gave a similar reflection in the panel without centering this rich experience of your own individual involvement. I do want to push you uh to your thoughts. The South African question in 1994 was a fundamentally racially fragmented community that was the challenge faced with an imminent civil war where there was an indiscriminate distribution of arms and a well-organized military faction in the South African Defense Force as well as specifically led by military intelligence, thoroughly convinced and had planned to disrupt militarily the elections. We all remember Madiba navigating and bringing them into the table. I wonder beyond the questions of which I'll come to immediately after, socioeconomic questions, if one is able to say what were the challenges of nationhood 1994, the union was about to, if I put it that way, fall apart. How did we fare in relation to if you are sitting in April, March 1994? And you are able now to say, okay, 1996, the constitution is adopted. Heavily contested document. Yes. There it is. Yes. There is the National Assembly adopts it. Yes. 30 years, 32 years. How did we do in relation to what threatened our falling apart in 1984?

SPEAKER_01 8:04

You're pushing me to reflect. Of course. Okay, so I'll tell you, I I I will never forget the opportunity, the privilege of attending the inauguration of President Nelson Mandela on the lawns of the Union Building. It was a beautiful day. Sky was clear. The world came to watch from the Americans to the Cubans, to the Europeans, to almost all of Africa. At a small space, I stood there next to Chris Landsberg. And there were several poignant moments. Mandela de Clark was around. Their handover, the symbolism was striking and very powerful. Union buildings, seat of power of government, power. In the background, so the handing over was dramatic. In the background, Air Force helicopters flying the new South African flag. We no longer have those helicopters, by the way, flying past. Another symbolic moment suggesting that military power is being handed back into civilian authority. Very dramatic. And I felt, still feel very proud of that moment. We'll never forget. Beautiful pictures. Not realizing at the time that you might negotiate a transfer of power to a civilian government, to the ANC, who which won convincingly in the election, and were ready to implement the RDP at the time. Not realizing then what we know now, that at the very same time there was an effort by reactionary forces to disrupt, even though it might take longer, having given over political power, but not necessarily economic power. And what obscured that vision was the ability of many of us working together to counter or neutralize the blatant effort from right-wing Afrikaners to take back what they thought they were going to lose. So there were a series of maneuvers, the military working together, some of the generals working behind the scenes, telling President Mandela there's a coup underway, which he lots of mis and disinformation. And an attempt by the far right to consolidate and hold their military power back, to wait for a moment where they can display to the nation, to the rest of us, that they're still a factor. I think they were neutralized effectively, preventing a civil war. Through the good offices of very good mediators, the generation of the Mbekis, the Powhads, all of our former ambassadors who came back from exile, working with a range of white people again to try and neutralize this threat. I think it was neutralized. It popped up later in a different format, much more sophisticated. This was crude, crude Buramach tactics, which we saw and could deal with. We're now talking about a different kind of a counter revolution to undermine our achievements and return power, not necessarily to the Buramach, but to other external forces working in tandem with internal forces to take back what they think they've lost. Now that narrative is becoming clearer now because President Becky is helping us to understand that. The TMF itself, as we know, you and I, is working on some evidence-based documentation for us to display to the world what is happening. I think this is our next biggest challenge in terms of Sarafrika's journey to a form of democracy that serves the majority of the people. The real threat is not over. The real threat has become even more dangerous. I understand there's a there's a there's an argument that white people or Afrikaners are still very privileged. They are. How short term is a short term? How short is a short term? Now you're pushing me. Two years. Two years. You are two years.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Two years.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Look, uh think of American uh uh political dynamics. The war in Iran, uh, which Trump says he has won ten times, but Iran is still there. The state of Arabus, as we speak today, remains closed. The price of oil is around 100 still, and so on. He's becoming this war is impacting very negatively on his political fortunes. Like the Vietnam War impacted on politicians very negatively. So there's midterm elections coming up. He might lose their house. Uh, he's under real pressure. His health doesn't look too good. I think uh uh his time is running out. Um and and our ambassador in Washington was just be patient and not overstep. And in fact, I said to Roof Mayor, we had a conversation. What must I go and do there? I said, Roof, don't go to the White House, don't go to the Oval Office. You'll be humiliated. Uh, what you do is talk to the officials in that administration, prepare the agenda for what will come later or come next. In fact, we don't have time to waste, if I can put it in a different way. Yes. On the continent. In fact, all of our ambassadors, all of our diplomats, and our entire foreign policy should be focused on growth at home and investment, but how to stabilize Africa, how to make Africa a better place. So, you know that agenda. Sudan faces the worst humanitarian disaster of all time. Worse than Gaza or the Middle East or Ukraine. The Americans are there, they've got Special envoys. Who's this African special envoy to Sudan? Not South Sudan, that's deputy president, to Sudan. In the Eastern DRC, how do we step up? And the answer is not to say to President Becky, can you do Sun City Talks number two? That is not the right answer. The Sahel with violent extremism is not getting better. And by the way, I don't know if I should how do I say this diplomatically? When the Americans move in to give you military support to fight jihadism or violent extremism in whatever form, it gets worse. Ask the Nigerians that the levels of violence increase when the Americans send military assistance. Ask the Somalis, ask the North Africans, ask the Mozambicans, our next door neighbor, who asked the Americans and the Europeans, the Portuguese of all people, to train them to fight violent extremism in Cabo del Gaudo. Whatever ambassador you send to Washington or to any other important mission must have this foremost in her or his thinking as the agenda that needs to be addressed.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

But is rules conversant with the continent? I mean, look at the way you've just traversed the entity as an analytical object, the continent, the Sahel West. You go to Cabo Delgado, you come back into Central Africa. You're able to identify the points, the nodal points, conflict zones, and you're able to also possibly speak to you were doing it earlier, the key developmental imperatives. What is Nepal? What was it about? It's turning 25 years. Is Rulf Mayor that? No. No. Because with Trump, it's business. Yeah. On the one hand. Yes. And obviously on the other, there are these imminent conflicts. Yeah. Let's so let's. The African agenda. Is it something that Trump will be. Does he understand that South Africa's strength is this that you've just said is that it actually was always the country in the room that had the weight of over a billion people from Cape to Cairo. That when you talk to Botswana, that's not who you're speaking to. You're just speaking to Botswana. When you're speaking to Zambia or Malawi, in some instances, Kenya, Kenya's maybe maybe speaking for East Africa, that the true country that always could bring in any conversation that when the West met them, they know are meeting people with a huge influence and that are able to drive a continental agenda, a continental voice in the world. So is is is Ruth Mayor?

SPEAKER_01 25:28

That I mean No, you being nostalgic now. We've lost what you're talking about. Okay. We've lost it. The best we can do, in my view. Ruth, by the way, has experience with mediation, conflict resolution. He went to Sri Lanka, he traveled here and there, he's got the Kodesa experience of the 1990s. He's a trusted uh friend of the president. These are all positives, but he won't be able to make any difference if he doesn't work with the professional team. And even then, allow me to be dramatic for one moment. We thought last year that we can set African and continental agendas by steering the G20 to a summit in November in Johannesburg. We thought we could win a global South agenda, put it inside the G20. We truly believe that. Foreign affairs, Durko, government, many NGOs, many academics, many scholars, we all ran on that path. The day after the summit ended, Donald Trump said, I'm whiting, I'm wiping the slate clean. Your Johannesburg outcome statement is no longer on the website. The very next day. And then he said, We'll reset. Come to me next year. He says to the G20, but South Africa, you messed up. You were pushing other lines we don't like. It's not our agenda. Our agenda is economics, uh, AI, uh, growth, investment, oil, and so on and so on. We lost a moment. We've been replaced by others.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

And by the way, it looks like this is Ruth's measurement. Will he be able to bring back South Africa at the center, not even at the center, but back on the agenda in G20? Is this what you're driving? Because that's what I'm thinking about. I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I don't want to forget this point. Yes. Is this part of the most urgent tasks facing Ruth? And you think he's gonna pull that up?

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Let me let me change your thinking. Let's forget about Ruf the Man. Ask yourself this question: whether we have the leadership and the capacity to restore South Africa's role in the region to start with, on the continent, if we're ambitious, and in terms of norm setting in the global self, do we have the collective, the leadership, the wisdom, the intellectual power to take back what we've lost over many years now? One man here or a woman there, short-term tactical maneuvering just to keep the temperature down, it's almost a sign of desperation to say we don't want Donald Trump to come back to us next week and close us down, put sanctions on us, humiliate us again, harm us, stopping, stop trade, and removing, here's the part that hurts, removing our agency from Africa by taking over the role that we were supposed to play. Sudan's future now lies in Washington, not in Pretoria. So now then the difficult question. The restore our place in Africa and the world?

SPEAKER_00 29:51

When President Mbeki gave the Aziz Pahad inaugural lecture, set a framework of some sort on US South Africa relations and placed people-to-people relations at the center of the next stage for a diplomatic mission in the US that based on the changing balance of forces, South Africa is a strategic enemy in the heads of foreign policy experts in the US. You may want to revive a people-to-people uh diplomacy. The members of the Black Caucus, the African American community, the Hispanic community, uh progressive like trade unions and all of that. It seems to me this was at the birth of in executive or state to state or government to government, um alone is not gonna work in short or long term. You wanna say something about Ruth and this task?

SPEAKER_01 31:11

You're quite right to ride to raise this issue. It's not for him, it's for others. Because, by the way, you said President Becky's sketched this framework. It's the right framework. We shouldn't win or balance or restore or normalize our relationship with America by working with the Trump administration or even state-to-state. There's no trust. And I do believe that the punch will still come from the Trump administration more heavily, and one man is not going to stop that punch that is coming, making us a pariah in the eyes of the American administration. We have to be much more flexible and innovative and find other ways to maintain the relationship. Our relationship with America is much more than just the White House. It is the list that you've just made. There are progressives in America, there are people-to-people relations, very deep, for many decades, for many years, where intellectually we cohere. We have to re-recover, rediscover them. And by the way, it shouldn't only come from us, it should also come from the Americans. What I don't see is our friends, our natural allies in that complex American society saying to the world, Sir Africa, which is being maligned by the Trump administration, we're on your side. When you take Israel to the International Court of Justice, we applaud you. When you take a position on the global south issues as the G20 agenda was, we support you. When you're excluded from the G20 year under American leadership, and you're being replaced by others, we oppose that. We want to hear that voice. It's not yet coming up, which means we have to build our Dirco, our foreign affairs, must be more flexible, more agile, more powerful in the way that they reach out.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Let's come back then to this influence of South Africa to the region, Southern Africa. Are you I mean I'm gonna also again here give a big slate of uh analytical uh room. I'd like to pose the question of you assessing South Africa's influence in the region, strength in relation to what happened in Madagascar. Uh you were one of the people that got there just after as a delegation the coup. Uh you've been working around the question of the post-coup, the aftermath, and all of that. If maybe you can help us unpack that Madagascar question, but in relation to South Africa's influence in the region, I know there's some noddle points, and we'll we'll look at them as you go. Um starting with the state of Madagascar.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

I think we have to see what we do with Madagascar in the context of our role in the region. The two are intimately linked. It is not as if South Africa can go and rescue Madagascar or Madagascar, the colonel, say to South Africa, come and help us out here. It the context is critical. We have to understand that this is a regional problem with a long route, many long history. And South Africa, whatever our move is as a country to assist in the restoration to democracy or democratic rule in Madagascar must take place in terms of the collective supporting one country in distress. SADEC, 16 member states, we have to work together with our neighbors in trying to solve that problem. What is the problem in Madagascar? What happened? Many years of uh uh corruption and ruling elites capturing the state through high levels of corruption to serve their own business interests, working with foreigners to extract the riches of Madagascar. Uh possibly, I mean, in a footnote, many people think of Madagascar when you look at the map, big island there on the east coast of Africa, uh with exotic trees, plant life, some tourism potential. I hear people go there for tourism, but actually very poor and unimportant in world affairs. In fact, Madagascar is sought after by those in the world who need access to resources to build their own economies and to drive the new AI, for example, electric vehicles or the critical minerals that people talk about. And if that is not enough, think of the map. Madagascar is surrounded by the Indian Ocean. Madagascar is a weak state exploited for many years from colonialism to post-colonial running elites who use the state for their own interests. So the state doesn't have the ability to patrol or survey or control access to its not only the land mass but the sea around it. So now you find that uh all these um uh exotic fish species and these expensive prawns that you like to eat in the restaurant are being taken out by industrial-size fishing vessels that comes from elsewhere in the world. There are countries that I shouldn't name because there's no control, and they've outfished or overfished the Malagasy waters. So it's it's it's it's a victim of what it has and the inability of the state to maintain control. In this context, 10 or 15 million people say, we want a better life. Why should we be subject to corrupt ruling elites who conspire with foreign interests to take away what actually belongs to us? And then there's a popular uprising, not for the first time. Um, the military, as elsewhere in Africa, is well placed to take advantage of the moment of weakness to insert its own control for its own reasons. Very few militaries have the real interest of a restoration to democracy in mind, is what they say. We are intervening, there's a coup, we're taking over the government, we're shutting down uh the radio station and the TV station, uh, we're arresting all the ruling elites. We want to restore law and order, control, discipline is what the people want. But the next step, the transition to democracy, to restore democracy, to hand back to civilian rule, hardly happens. Also in the case of Madagascar, because the military then becomes an actor with its own vested interests. What are those? This is a difficult part of the conversation. As soon as the coup happened in Madagascar last year, foreigners were knocking on the door of the military, of the colonel. The Russians, the Chinese, the French, and the Europeans, some African nations. Make deals with us. We want to support you. You've got stuff here that we want. So Madagascar is of due strategic importance. This is partly why there's difficulty in settling this issue. Middle East, Iran, Strait of Hormuz blocked, oil price shoots up, all that traffic is diverted through around East Africa, through the Mozambique Channel, Mozambique here, Madagascar there, around the Cape of Good Hope to serve, you know, to drop the oil. Yeah, that's right. Now Madagascar is of geostrategic value and importance. Foreigners want to place their own interests there working with the military. In this context, it is very difficult for South Africa or SADEC to move in and say, let's do a national dialogue, let's get democracy restored, let's get economic growth and development back on track because of these other interests that is pushing for another kind of outcome. So then, the other part of your question, how does Sarafrica move on this? Yes. Because immediately after the coup, the colonel said, Randrianiara said, Madagascar's Madagascar Melgas have difficult surnames. I'm no longer able to chair SADEC. Madagascar was elected just before the coup at a summit in Antananarivo to chair SADEC. I'm no longer able to do this. I've got other problems. He handed back the chair to the Secretariat. The Secretariat said technically and correctly, who's the deputy? It's us, Srayfuka. Why don't you step in until such time that the next summit takes place in August this year in Durban, where we will be formally taking over SADEC for another year? So we've got a year and a half. So we said yes. We could hardly say no. I think. In another footnote, you must ask yourself this question, or you must interview some diplomats who were in the room at the summit last year in Antananarivo, weeks before the popular uprising and the coup. Did they see on the ground what was coming? Were they informed? Did they have intelligence? Could they read the room? When I went there, people told me, people, not politicians, especially young people, can Sadek come to your rescue? They say, we don't want to know about SADIC. They came here when the rulers were oppressing us and where the corruption was high and we had no water and no electricity. We were really suffering. Here comes SADEC to a summit. Big cars, flags, big hotel. Driving through the streets of Antananarivo, poverty stricken. Couldn't you see what was coming? There's a problem there with Sadek, by the way, that I think we have to address. So South Africa took the chair, and South Africa said we are prepared to assist. So the chair is the president, Ramaposa. The Malgash, the colonel, the military junta, has come to visit. Here's a difficult part. The AU says, the African Union and its Constitutive Act, we must uphold the rules and norms. When a country is subverted and a military takes over, should they be in the room in the AU? We suspend their membership. We want to teach them a lesson. Come back when you've democratized. Now what do you do with the Malgash? They knock on the door, they say, we are overwhelmed. Can you assist? So we listen to them. I think it's part of our diplomacy. And in fact, the Taboombeki Foundation was asked to assist. We went there. We discovered that what they ask for first and foremost is a process of a natural consultation, the way they talk. Yeah. National dialogue which has not happened before, or partly, or partially, or failed to work before, where they have a dialogue amongst themselves. We are poverty stricken, we're exploited by ruling elites, there are foreign interests who take what we have. What do we do about this? What is the structure of the government that we want? Do we need a new constitution, a new system of governance? And who are our friends and allies who we can truly believe will help us? Not by exploiting us, but assisting us. Complex process, and uh we offered assistance. Now, President Becky says, I can't go there and convene or steer or assist with a national dialogue unless SADEC says to the world and to Madagascar, we support him. He's our man. Or the AU says, in terms of you know, complex governance rules, subsidiarity, SADEC must take control of the problems of the region first. We'll play a supportive role. So the AU makes contradictory statements. Suspend because the military coup, they're asking for assistance, maybe we should help. Let's ask SADEC. SADEC sends envoys and fact-finding missions. They come back, they've not yet made a decision. And here's my conclusion. It's too late. For the AU, for SADEC, for Africa to say to a fellow member in very deep trouble, we are here to assist you to recover what you've lost. Because others have taken the gap. Correct. Unfortunately. So I don't know how it's going to play out.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

In that breath, let's go to the AU summit, which you also attended earlier this year. Yes. And I'd like to get your sense of its discussions, uh, its outcome, any of these matters served in the agenda, the DRC, the Sudan, Madagascar, and you know, the role of the United States to aggressively fracture the continent now. Any of these matters came as a strong uh item in the agenda? But also, did the 25 years assessment of new partnership for Africa's development take place?

SPEAKER_01 46:56

So AU summits are important because it's an indicator of where the continental body is and what it wants to do. It's a bit like the mood at the summit is a little bit like Sona, when the opening of parliament, the state of the nation address. You you tune your ear to what the president is going to say when parliament opens. I shouldn't tell you. The president arrives, he makes a speech. You know that maybe it's not him speaking, but it's uh it's a it's a collective uh who's giving the nation an idea of what should be on the agenda for the next year or so. You listen to summit, you want to hear whether this continental body has what it takes to direct the agenda for Africa's development. You go there to listen to that. Now, I don't know what you get out of Sona. Sometimes we are disappointed. In fact, can I make this point uh also in a footnote? President Becky uh once said, instead of making a state of the nation address every year announcing new initiatives, let's start by asking, what have we achieved since last year? Where's the audit? Now, the AU doesn't do that either. So so almost uh uh in a uh as a sign of desperation, it wanted to show us in Africa and its partners across the world that it is in control of the African agenda. It knows it, it works on it. And in a sign of optimism, opened the summit by saying our theme for the year is water and sanitation. It's a basic human right. There are 400 million Africans without access to water, 600 million without access to sanitation. It is a critical issue. Judge us by our intervention to provide such a basic right to the people of the continent. I thought, okay, when I heard that, sounds good. I did a quick Google search. There's no such policy, there's no strategy. And in fact, I'm very critical now. The reason why this is not going to happen is because they don't know our AU doesn't know how to raise the resources, resource mobilization to make this a reality for our people. It's a false hope. It is a false promise. Why? More than 60% of all AU programs, like this one, is foreign funded. If foreign donors feel like it, they'll put money there. Not, no, no, let me recover. They don't put money there. They say we will assist you to implement that project or that program. We'll bring the experts, we'll write the agenda for you, we'll do the implement, the procurement will come to us. It's highly problematic. That set the stage, and then I realized I think we're in trouble. The trouble is that the deep structural issues of governance, and then the ability or the inability of the AU to address Africa's real problems. You've mentioned Sudan, DRC, Sahel, Somalia, and there's more. Extreme weather, climate change, uh pollution, uh, oceans, and so on and so on. Its inability to really talk honestly about what we need to do to address these didn't surface. Instead, what came up was who shall we elect as a member of the Peace and Security Council? Lesotho, South Africa, competition. Uh, even the chairship of the AU is contested. And we don't often have credible leaders in Africa to head up the AU with confidence that says to the rest of us and to the world, this chair of the AU is credible, is strong, is disciplined, can represent us on international forums. In fact, the AU must now, without us, continue to play a role in the G20. And the chair of the AU came on a visit here and said, is very sorry, and the AU is very sorry that South Africa has been kicked out of the G20. We're very sorry about it, but then proceeded to set the agenda for the AU and American under American leadership without us being in the room, even the backdoor room, which I thought was a very serious shortcoming.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

I guess this Africa Day has a lot to reflect upon. But may I bring it to home the levels of Pan-African unity in the ordinary population? But in the minds of South Africa's leadership, how would you rate South Africa's leadership and ordinary population's consciousness to integrated African development?

SPEAKER_01 52:58

How would you rate that? Low. Unfortunately. And why is that? There was a an ideological conviction and political will in the 60s and 70s, maybe the 80s, sort of a generation back, to say that if we don't work together as Africans, we won't overcome our myriad of problems, and we will be unable to position ourselves globally, to benefit from world trade, relations with others, and so on. There was a generation of leaders who had the insight to take their people along a journey of pan-Africanism. Very famous leaders from Julius Nerere and many others. They've been replaced by a generation of political leaders who have other interests at heart, which is nationalistic in kind, which is interests behind their own borders, which is a professed belief in regional integration, but in truth or reality, no real commitment to open borders and to real integration. SADEC exists, its 16 members have agreed to a process of regional integration, not only cooperation, but integration. But the behavior of the current crop of leaders is that they are driven by other material self-interests. So if you truly believe in regional integration, you have to give up a bit of your what you have, of your sovereignty and your own value and share it with your neighbor. And the argument is simple for me. If Lesotho collapses in poverty and underdevelopment and corruption, every Basutu in Lesotho runs to the free state. It is in our interest to have a strong, vibrant, thriving Lesotho, proud and dignified. Then you build the relationship. And we must invest in Lesotho, as we have for many years. The same with all of our neighbors, the same with the region. Because South Africa is the powerful big brother in the region, our economy is overwhelming for many historical reasons. I don't see that happening anymore, and I don't see a progressive value system by our political leaders or our ruling elites, business and government officials and intellectuals and society, perhaps, to say if we don't work together as a region, we won't overcome the problems that we face. Yes. If the region goes down, we go down. If we invest in the region and build up the region, we will benefit. But if your ruling elites are not interested in the material conditions of the African masses and the continent as a whole, and doesn't want to lead Africa's development agenda, but is interested in the four years of rule at home and how to benefit personally, which is the truth for many of them, then our regional integration project will not succeed. So so, in a roundabout way, I'm trying to answer your question that our our uh our consciousness, uh Sarafricans, of the continent, its role and place, our history with the continent, and the the boundless opportunities awaiting us if we truly work together is lacking, has not been built up, has not kept alive currently.

SPEAKER_00 57:27

You started out with reflections about the constitution and the continuing efforts of a group of people in 1994 who convinced themselves that they will achieve the disruption of the hegemony of national democratic revolution to disrupt the democratic project. Is this fracture you've just described in any way a big advantage to those forces?

SPEAKER_01 58:03

Indeed, indeed. It's a hard thing to say to acknowledge the power of the counter-revolution and its disruptive influence on the body politic and its ability to fairly easily corrupt those in power and to change agendas. Our future might not be a failed state or state failure or collapse. It might be the conversion of our democracy into another form of statehood that is designed to serve other interests, not the interests of our people, but interests of those who recognize that we are powerful and rich, have a role to play, have natural resources, have human and social capital, our young people as an asset to be converted to serve other interests. That is a dangerous path that we are on now. So is our constitution strong enough to prevent this from happening? If the holders in Parliament of this precious document is not alive to the realities of subversion, then we will lose then the Constitution becomes completely worthless. So what you need is a revolution that says, how can we make this important document the foundation stone of the building? That says, here are the rules of the political game, and here are the norms and the values we stand for as a nation, become alive again in the minds of all of our people, but particularly the next generation, who were not there to witness, as I was privileged in 1994, to see a hand, a peaceful handover from apartheid to democracy. And we're not privileged to see the achievements of many decades of democratic rule under the ANC, but understands very well the fast collapse morally and otherwise of our ruling elites. And they judge the constitution by what they see now. And they say to us, this is a failure. So we can't sit in parliament, sing the praises of the constitution, and hand out that little booklet to every scholar who comes to visit parliament without having this very difficult conversation and a debate. Thank you so much, Prof. Good. Appreciate it. Okay, right. Okay.