Episode 32 - Sipho “Hotstix” Mabuse: Music, Liberation and the African Renaissance

In conversation with Ntate Sipho Hotstix Mabuse on Music, Liberation and the African Renaissance.
Sipho Mabuse known professionally as "Hotstix", is a South African singer-songwriter.
Mabuse grew up in Soweto. Mabuse got his start in the Afro-soul group the Beaters in the mid-1970s. After a successful tour of Zimbabwe they changed the group's name to Harari, an afrosoul band led by Mabuse.

Transcript

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Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 0:02

I guess you are a you're not a stranger to to the foundation to the to this place.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Absolutely not. Yes. I'm one of the very th few privileged people to have been invited to the foundation and being able, you know, having access to many of the people that have worked here, including the president himself. So it's a privilege that not many, not many musicians, at least, one could say.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 0:41

And um, but that relationship you have with the foundation and its program or vision of African Renaissance goes even far back. But I do want to start with when first would you say was the time you had a interaction directly with the leadership of the ANC at the highest level? First encounter?

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Well, my first encounter with the leadership of the African National Congress was outside. Was in exile. Well, I was not in exile, but I was traveling all over the world. I was traveling as a musician, and uh I met some of my colleagues who were in the arts uh part of the arts community, and one of the people that I met was Brawali. Then Brawali introduced me to some of the leadership that was in exile, and uh I also met people like Julian Bahula. When I went to New York, I met some of I think at some stage, if my memory serves me well, I briefly got to be introduced to OR in in London. Okay. Yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 2:17

We did a session, the very first uh interview on the platform. Um here my phone I uh I've misplaced it somewhere, but when you watched the first episode we had with President Mbeki and his recount of the person Oliver Tambo was, uh you had a very interesting reflection. I got a very long text from you. Oh yeah. And uh but you were sharing the story of the background to that affirmative or affirmation of the personality of OR Tambo. I thought maybe uh to kick start this this conversation, you might want to well to request you to repeat that on record uh and the background story uh that made you reflect in the way you did.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Well Albeit you know your your your your response on my phone was quite test. I thought you didn't probably catch it, but I'm int I'm interested to notice that you you actually read through it today. Well, I think when the ANC came back into the country, of course, after the unburning of all the political organizations, the most high-profile organization obviously was the the the African National Congress. And to to engage with civil society was part of, if I may call, program of the African National Congress. Now I belong to the uh the arts community as a performing musician, and uh we were invited, okay. Perhaps what I should say is that when President Becky said OR would never be the first person to speak in a room. In a room, yes. You'd always allow people to speak. And immediately immediately I picked up on that conversation we had with him, and I could vouch for it because of my personal experience with OR first time, first encounter. So when when we were invited to, I think Shell House then, in 1990, all the arts community uh members, be the writers, be a performers, musicians, and so on, we came into this room. Uh Brawali had invited us, Wally Sarote, and then there was President Bekidden. Well, he was still secretary of the NC. At that time, of course, we didn't know who the leader was going to be of the ANC. And we all were sitting there, and OR walked in. I mean, we were all in awe. As we were all about to stand up, he said, please please please please please all sit down, sit down, sit down. So we sat down and he sat across the table. Obviously, he was going to chair the meeting. And one of the first things he said was Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Oliver Tambo. I mean what do you say in a situation like that? My name is Oliver Tumble. Who doesn't know Oliver Tumbo in this room? That's the first sign of humility that he introduced himself to us. You know, we started looking at each other and we were pondering. Wow. And you he you know, he clasped his hands like this, and he would say, uh I am supposedly president of the African National Congress. And this is my these are these two are my colleagues mentioning uh President Becky and Brawali. And we've invited you to all come here so that as we engage with every civil society member in we understand exactly what is the kind of country we are looking at, we're looking forward to. And we've asked you to come here to advise, to guide us as to how we can create, you know, a better future, especially in your sector. You know, there was silence. We've never been engaged by any politician at that level. With the, you know, there was always this conflagration between ourselves and the politicians and so on. And there was this power, this power, power relationships between. Suddenly we felt such an important part of a society, part of an important part of a country. And we all spoke individually. And now what went through my mind was, are they going to know what everybody has been saying? And all the time as we were talking, he was sitting like this, and we were observing. And on the other side was President Becky was making notes. Making notes. Once we're done talking, he said, Thank you very much. We appreciate you coming to talk to us. And then he looked at President Tabo and he said, Tabo, Wally, you heard the people. Now it's for us to go and do our homework. That was my first encounter with the kind of leadership that reduced itself to the level of the commonness.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 8:34

This I actually want to read uh flex, give me get me that uh my phone is at the bottom of that speech. I want to read um what you said in your own words, but before I make the the sort of provocation that I I I want to do, it seems to me at this stage the the fundamental impression was the ANC takes the arts seriously. The AC takes the arts seriously.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

Took the arts seriously. I think as a past tense. I think it's very important for us to make that distinction between the past and the presence. For the fact that there was engagement, you know.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 9:28

I I want to get to the text. What a brilliant interview with President Becky. Indeed, what he says about OR never to be the one to speak first, I can confess. Through Brawales Rote, the arts community structures were invited there to the N shell house to engage with the ANC and give guidance and value to a democracy devoid of government control. The arts community was asked to speak first. Then OR deferred to TMN Brawali. I'm merely adding to President Mbeki's assertion on OR. Yes. Did a situation of that nature because at that time the president of the ANC was Oliver Tumble. When last did artists in that form sit and interact in that form with the head of the ANC, or did you have any other encounter thereafter with other heads of the ANC?

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Not at all. Not to my knowledge. Not to my recall. Yes, we did meet with some of the the leadership within the uh the the maybe the arts man uh department of arts and culture through the at the behest of course of the the pres the the the president of the of the country um with uh um our first encounter also was with the with President Mageladen, because then uh we didn't meet with him personally, but we met with one of his uh ministers, uh Dr. Ben Gubani. There was a a music a music industry task team, you know, not necessarily the the arts community, but particularly specifically the music uh the music in the script task team to which I I served as a as a member. But subsequently most of it uh happened at the behest of who would be the the incumbent. You know, and uh of course uh I think with some uh at a greater influence, President Beggy did influence the our meetings with uh Paolo Jordan, uh uh Bridget Mabanja. But what what really what I always find very interesting and strange was that none of them were quite willing to engage at the full level as the first encounter and the experience that we had with OR. And which was rather surprising because we would have imagined, you know, culminating from the first meeting we had with with OR, that the trajectory would would go beyond just where it was then, but it seemed to stay at a particular level where every minister that comes in doesn't seem to know what they should do with the with the arts. How do you explain uh that? You know, having said that, uh Dr. Njoszi, and this is very personal, there is a sense of betrayal from the arts community, a big sense of betrayal. We feel we have been let down in terms of considering the role we had to play in actually profiling the role we, you know, our role in terms of the struggle. You know, we have suddenly we suddenly feel like a the you know the unwanted stepchild in a family. That's that's that's what is now considered the the current state of affairs in relation to the arts. You know, there's a big sense of betrayal by the by politics in general. Yes, because the ANC is the government, we feel it even more considering that there had been that much interaction with them even during the exile, you know, uh stages, even when they came back, there had always been that moment of interaction and engagement. But since then, the process and the trajectory has just gone down to probably non-existent engagement with uh with the politics.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 14:32

Let me let me go to the music, we'll come back to the politics. Uh maybe we will end there. I don't know. Um I mean your contribution is iconic to South Africa's uh music scene. Some people say even stylish, I don't know about that. Uh but uh I'm told you won some style awards, but uh I mean, I mean those I didn't do my nails. I don't know if Gloria is gonna agree. Uh you would be the one that uh out dresses, but the point I I I do want to go to about the music, um it's a very unique sound that you specifically, and I guess your generation began to work on uh in the 1970s. You were you really took uh I mean, I know we're calling what township pop, I don't know, what is the name which crystallized really in the 1980s? I want to do this academic exercise with you. Uh what is how to describe because you've got the benefit now of a retrospective view. You can look back in the beginning, we were being creative, innovative, but in hindsight, what do you think the real musicological contribution from a sound perspective musically? What do you think your your work did for music? I mean, either the view of but I'm gonna test it.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Well, you're one of the most difficult things is speaking about oneself.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 16:42

Don't talk about yourself, just talk about the music. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

I mean, as an objective, you see, when you say talk about music, I need to understand what music are you are you referring to the music that I made or the music that my generation made. Your music. Okay. You see now, that's why I'm saying that's why. I don't want to speak. Yes.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 17:02

Yeah, I guess. Yes. I mean, people write books and they get reviewed. Yes. And they like, okay, it's no longer my book, it's now out there and all of that. I get, I get the difficulty, but I mean, if uh if you were to characterize, let's let me put it differently. Um you're you you think of a generation. Um, I don't know whether I I think the generation of uh 70s, 80s is such diverse. I mean, there's such a diverse tapestry of sounds that I don't think it's the case that we can package it all together. But specifically, when you look back and you say within what I was doing, I can count three other people maybe in the beginning. What would you say you chaps invented?

SPEAKER_03 18:09

I think what I what I would always like to be mindful of is not to consider ourselves custodians of what is more creative. Music evolves. Artists, of course, creative people are not static. And I'd love to believe the generation that I belong to were those kind of musicians. We would have been influenced by other kinds of music. For instance, not many musicians would deny the fact that we had been influenced by what came out from the US, including jazz. If you're listening to Winston Monkunku, you'd be able to consider a John Coltrane coming through listening. If you're going to listen to someone else, you'd consider Jimi Hendrix, you'd consider Nina Simone, you'd but we were privileged in a way that there were certain people like Miriam Akeba. Miriam has been very central. A lot of people have not actually we have not played the role in actually ensuring, recognizing the role that Mazi played in how African music in general and in the diaspora was influenced by Miriam Akeba. We have not noticed that, but it's fine. I will not come back to that. Let me speak about when when we became musicians, there was never really an intention to believe that we can influence an era. We came in as musicians, as creative as we were, we understood the fact that for us to sustain beyond a particular era, we have to evolve, we have to continuously create new ideas, we have to be in uh, you know, eventful and so on. And uh I think once we started touring Zimbabwe, where we got exposed to, of course, then it was Rhodesia, and it was this groundswell of the political uh upheaval and the struggle was in intensifying there. But for the privilege that we had as influenced by the black consciousness movement enabled us to interact and engage with the subject matter that was happening in Zim at the time, which also influenced how we would create our music. And on returning to from Zim, people had this new sound from the Beatles. Right? The Beatles, which were essentially a pop band influenced by a British rock band. You know what I'm saying? But suddenly the events in Zimbabwe became, you know, catalyst. You know, it became a watershed moment for us to see, hey, we've been influenced by this political groundshore of black consciousness. Are we going to retain, are we going to sustain this Western influence of the music of Europe? No. Thankfully, the ed the little education that we have enabled us to reflect, to consider a change. We started composing music there. When we came home, people were like, where are the beaters? The beaters had become Harari with a new sound, such that people started hearing Russia thankfully to. Rashid uh Valley, we were able to record the music, and uh the rest is is history. The evolution, the revolution of music continues.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 22:13

Do you remember your first composition, the first song as a young star that you that you wrote?

SPEAKER_03 22:26

As an individual or within the batch. You yeah. There were quite many. But the very first the very first one was You Are the One. How old were you? I was seventeen. Well no, I was probably even much younger than that. I was about what 14, 15? You know? It was more a love song.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 22:56

Who who who was propelling you to to ping and feel love? Do you remember the the provoc the provocation?

SPEAKER_03 23:07

The provocation. No, I think I think I was just imagine it was just imagination. Running away with you. Running away with. Did you record it? I did. We did record.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 23:22

Yes. I did record. What genre was it?

SPEAKER_03 23:26

It was pop music. Pop. You know, at that time there was this news new music called Soul Soweto Soul. Soul Music. But we called it Soweta Soul Music.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 23:38

And what time is this? Is the 70s? Late. Late 60s. Late 60s. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

69, 70, 71. And there were bands like, you know what? Is that we called it so where to soul music. But even bands who came from Alexander, like the Souls, who were the originators of the music itself. But then also that music was influenced by the American sound of Bucati and the MGs. You know what I'm saying? So, but we turned it and called it Soweto Soul Music. So the flaming souls from Alexander also played Soweto Soul music. The teenage lovers from Porchum Clark's Dope played musical with Rex Rabani, played this musical Soweto Soul Music. So Soweto was the center, the macro of soul music.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 24:41

It is indeed another name for culture, Soweto. Yeah, South African culture, absolutely. And your background then to music. Where and how did you come across music? Was it uh church? Was it home? Uh such that you interacted with it enough to take a decision to be at home with it.

SPEAKER_03 25:14

You know, Doctor and Lozia, um any person who's a musician today would not be would be creating untruths if they say they were not influenced by what the society was offered. Music was everywhere, whether it be church, be it weddings, be it funerals, be in the streets, or in the school. There will be school assembly, there would be music. So as to whether a particular sector was more influential in how we did we we we became musicians would be an untruth. So for me, it was everything that was happening all the time. I think I mean during Sundays and Saturdays, the drumming thing. I grew up in in fact, I was born in and grew up a little, you know, for the next two, three years in Shantytown. Now Shantytown was almost like a an area of um in it's an it was an informal settlement. And there was a lot of intertribal activities happening out there, including music. You'd hear music from Amashangani, Batsuana, Basoto, including the traditional healer music. This is where my drumming began. I see. Because when I every time I was this little curious kid, every time I hear the Zangoma start playing, I would run out and go and just hang out there. Such that one of the traditional healers who lived opposite my home, I remember vividly, Dad Emmanuel would say, Mushayam, I would be, you know, I would be so emotional. And I would take the drums and start playing on the drums. And I I guess that evolved into my loving the drums. But what I'm trying to say is that the intertribal musical influences were critical. They were already in a melting, melting cultural, cultural chord of what was happening basically. And of course, it also happened that there was radio, you know, and radiofusion um sarazo. You know, there was this little box that their parents had bought where you could also listen only to Um Zulu or English radio. But of course, if you had a gramophone, your parents would be buying this winding gramophone and bringing all the music from America. You'd hear people like Lamy Special, Spose Mashiani, and the Manhattan Brothers, King's Messenger's cotette. So there was always music. You wake up in the morning to wash dishes or do anything, suddenly the robot goes on. There is the music that goes.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 28:31

There must have been a set of role models, one or two, or maybe more, I don't know. That you were beginning to model yourself on in relation to music at this stage.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Indeed. Who were they? The Manhattan Brothers were the Manhattan Brothers were very sensual to probably even people like Mary McKay, but Kaifaz and all those. They we we expect what about we speak harmony? We speak little of the Manhattan Brothers, but Manhattan Brothers were really, really the big deal. You know, they they were the ones that actually made made many of us love what was going on through music.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 29:24

Before I go into a later stage, I I want to press you a little bit here. I hear the you know we are like the Manhattans. Is it is it is it specifically them as a as a model that convinced you you could follow the path of music as a career? Not at all.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

Not at all. I I always maintained that I became a musician by default. Okay. I became a musician by default. There was never really an intention on my part to become a musician. I'd always felt that I could be an academic, I could be a doctor, I could be a lawyer, but for some strange reason, fate, you know, fate can always determine determine one's path. So what was the accident then to which Right and now all this is very interesting because I was at Orlando West High School, and uh remember between Orlando West High School and Madibani High, which is in Deep Truth, there is Orlando High. Now, Orlando High and Orlando West had high uh were high schools, whereas Matibani was secondary school. So anybody who passed a JC then from a high school would inadvertently have to go to a uh a high school. And these three guys, Selby, Alec, and Arthur came from Antibani. They could have chosen Orlando High, but for some and which is closer to where they are. But for some strange reason they ended up a lot at Orlando West High, which is where I was. And uh now SK loved SK was Dr. Mateke loved music, he loved musicians. So he requested a performance by some students to raise funds for some students who were going to university to, you know, uh obviously to raise a bursary. And suddenly there were all these volunteers, these guys had brought in their guitars, Alec and Selby, and Arthur the vocalist, doing all the Beatles music and doing all this very European music. Now, many of the the students at Holanda did not know this, you know, so it was considered you know high profile music. Ah, these guys are singing in English, you know, and we're singing songs like I feel it in my fingers, I feel it in my toes. The women went ballistic. I mean the girls. The girls I went ballistic for for these chaps. And during lunchtime, I had already started playing drums, but at more as a cadet band drummer, not full kit. And they said, uh oh, so we were going to um going out for lunch, and Selby and Kaya Matang were related. So these guys were going to Kaya's house. I was going to my home, and I saw them, and I went to Selby and I said, Hey, I saw you guys perform yesterday, and I realized that you don't have a drama. And Selby said, Oh, are you a drummer? And I knew that I wasn't a fully fledged drummer. I said, Yes, I'm a drummer. He said, Ha, the band is complete. Now we have the beaters. I was drawn into that band. Instead of going home, we went to set to Kaya's home, and the beaters were reformed there. Is this before 76? Ah, 76. We were long out of that. Yes. We were in Matric then. You were already from four.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 33:59

From four. Yeah, Matric, I see. Yeah. I I I do the uh you know, between a drama, a bass guitar, a guitarist, you don't quite it's not common to get a star. I mean, most people's journeys start in a different part of the band. And you don't find a lot of bassists, particularly the bass, who then, you know, graduate into soloists, into uh, you know, the center of the band. Central, yes. Um, same as a drum, particularly a drama. Some bassists might, but I mean, I'm thinking a drama always stays at the back. The back, huh? The rest of the instruments have some sense of tactical advantage to the star, to the to the spotlight, you know, uh piano, um, lead guitar, as well as the sex, you know, in all it's including, you know, and that day uh uh Jonas Quab. Yeah, I mean, you know, the the brass selection has killer, you know, yes, but not the drummer. I mean, I don't know if a person who was a star and then was like, yeah, you know, I was in the band and I I spent at least the next five years, ten years even, just drumming. And today I'm a lead, I've got a solo album. I've got five, seven, six solo albums. Is this is this the correct sort of framing of the question? How a person like you from the drums accidentally ends up with a sex. So tell me that transition from the drums to the sex.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

Well, uh let me let me first add a correct act. You know, most of the composers would be drummers, especially when it comes to dance music. Because they are the people that kept that stuck the beat. You know that uh Teddy Pandergrass was a drama was a drummer. Do you know that Stevie Wonder? Stevie started as a drummer. Drummer. Interesting. So only Hathaway played drums. Phil Collins is a drummer. So a lot of people would not imagine that such musicians would be upfront as, you know. Yes, we may assume a lesser role as front. Yeah. But for me, it was evolution. Thankfully, I, you know, I I I developed as a because we were more a collective as the beaters. So each and every one of us was a potential lead artist. Even though we we played, you know, specific roles as individuals, but we were all potentially lead, you know. But never did I imagine at some stage that I would be upfront in there. But I think I was driven more by my curiosity. You know, I'm I consider myself this very curious musician. I like to hear things, I like to explore things, I always want to do things differently to many other musicians. And when someone says, no, you can't play that instrument, I said, show me how not to. I will show you how to. And that's what I do. And how I made a transition to from the drums, for instance. When I started as a drummer, I I was influenced and you know, motivated by people like Eli Mabuza. Ellie was uh uh Felicia's uh uncle. Now he was considered South Africa's foremost drummer, and all of us wanted to play like him. So I would practice, practice, practice alone, and you know, lock myself in a room such that the name Hostix became my you know moniker. But the transition also was accidental. I started playing the piano, being a drummer, learning how to use the piano so that I'm able to compose the songs that I wanted to, but I still remained the drummer, you know, who was able to play the piano. Piano was secondary. Was secondary. And uh every time we hear music from different influential musicians like Hubert Laws, um uh Jethro Tow, this British musician, classical. So I would listen to classical music as well, and the flute became one of the instruments that I fell in love with. I started studying to play the flute as well. So the if there's the third instrument now, I still remained the drummer. I would play the flute behind the drums as my other colleagues were in the front. And uh and of course, the the band split, which was the most trying moment for me. Very, very very we were at the verge of international success. We had been signed with a major record label with Herb Alpet, the Commodores, you know, with Edwin and Fire. We were at we were part of that, you know, and you menu international with the Commodore and with the Edward and Fire in the same studios recording Branis Johnson. And of course, that's where we also met Brakazi. And anyway, anyway, we had met with him in Botswana before. So when we went to the stage, we met with Brakai first and the Harari split. I was devastated. I was devastated. It was almost like a marriage day breaks up when you thought you had this perfect marriage, and suddenly one day the wife says, I'm leaving. What?

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 40:54

I'm leaving. You know, as splits go, I know splits. And I know I know, you know. You and I I know a split was always coming. I mean, when it does happen, that's it. It feels like it wasn't coming. But you see it that no, actually, you know what? Harare was on its way there. Do you want to talk about this heartbreak? You know.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

I think wait for my book. I think it would be more it would be explained better in the book.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 41:34

I see. It's it's very deep. So by the time of Harare, you were still hot on the sticks. I was in the background. So, in essence, you had to reinvent.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

I had to reinvent myself. I had to reinvent myself. You know, at some stage I stayed, I stayed for probably a year, you know, inactive. My mind was in a state of flux. I was in a turmoil. I didn't know I even thought, ach man, let me go back to school and complete my trick and baby go to and so on. I got an invitation from Johnny, late Johnny Clay, from because their drama had just left them. Hey. You see, even though I was I was a drama, I was a band leader. You see, I was a band leader. So maybe maybe my style of leadership was too over-ambitious. Maybe I I I was um I was trying to live up to a certain state of musicianship, and I I I don't think that we shared the same, we shared the same ambition of with some of my with some of my colleagues. We were quite happy to be the band that was huge, big around here. But for me, there was the world out there, you know. And maybe in a in in a way, I would also be pushy. I'd put try and push people to be something that they probably not wanting to be. And uh when we were wanted when we had to go to America, some of them say no. You know the township lies. How chance? What do you mean? No. I was shattered. So I had to, you know, reflect and think about how do I and trust me at that time I was not necessarily one of the Most favorite musician, especially within the media, because the impression that was created is that I was responsible for the split. You know? I mean, I will I'll give you a story for instance. And when it happened, it was an explosion because we had gone to listen to to watch Jodie Clegg and the hotline had a show at the Colosseum. There was an agreement, and when it it had happened with the guys, to say, okay, we won't split out to the media, it's fine. We will, you know, we will keep it low. Now you know at that time this the newspapers came out earlier. The Sunday Times came out on at about 11 in the evening. Of Saturday. Yeah, of Saturday. Yes. For Sunday. So we were at this show, and I go to the bathroom, and I hear people say, Ha! You know, a scream outside. People will say, Ha, ha, ha, chance. You can imagine. You know how it feels. At least you knew. But for me, it was something that I heard out. You know, I was in the bathroom. I see. And I walk out, I see people crowded on a new, you know, around the newspaper. They were reading the front page of the Sunday Times. Harare splits. You know, I went into the hall and I said to my partner, I think we need to go home. I couldn't sleep, I couldn't say anything. I I was even afraid to go and buy the newspaper. How long had you worked hard? 12 years. So the sprint years. Well, Selby died after 10 years of us, and then I took over the next two years. That's when Harari just went even beyond where Selby had taken it. I had taken over the leadership. Harare just grew from, you know, we came up with these hits left, right. I mean, we made songs that make people drown themselves. That's how how big this band was. You know? And it took me three to maybe two to three, four years, and Harari was on top of the world. And uh that was 15 years of obviously, you know, the foundation and developing and and so on. And then uh and how old are you at this stage? I'm in my twenties, late 20s, late 80s. You have to re-package and read the package myself. And the uh yeah, I must say, you know, the advantage I think at a time was hey, I was I was a good looking guy, you know. I was I was pop star material. I see. I didn't know I had to do with the looks. But you know, if you have the pop star material, it makes it easier to, you know.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 47:25

But is it at this stage that you reach for the horn as the central okay? Not yet.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

I start um I start composing. Of course I was compos I was a composer with Ferrari. I composed most of the songs, you know, that obviously would see us grow as a band. But then I started making solo music. Again, I referred to fate. There was never really an intention or ever knowledge that things would turn around the way they did. I I wrote a song called Set Me Free. You know? I wrote a song called Set Me Free. But it was a love song, but for some strange reason it it tallied with the split. Set me free went up to number one in the charts. It went on to sell 200,000 copies. Wow. There I was a solo artist, and then I made another recording called Rise from Set Me Free to Rise. And Rise went to 250,000 sellers. Wow. Things were just brightening up, and suddenly I get invited as a solo performer there and there. And you know, I hadn't really refined the performance as a solo artist. My mind is still caught up in that drama at the back. And some of the performances, I must say, were quite poor. And came the burnout.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 49:13

Wow. Wait. Gotta clarify this. Set me free and rise. Rise. Yes. With a horn lead. No. So this is the first time you're going to make a song that is predominated by a horn as a lead. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 49:44

And it goes.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 49:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 49:48

I have a show. I have a song called Jive Soweto. It's a hit. I have to go and perform it. So this is before Burnout? They came out similar to it. Together, yes. You know what was very interesting? Burnout was the big hit. But Jive Soweto was also a hit. People didn't realize that they came from the same ABA. I see. So people would buy Jive Soweto without realizing that Burnout was the flip side, or buy burnout without realizing that.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 50:20

So there will have two of them in the room in the room.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

And but because I had to perform Jive Soweto, I hated the idea that I had to use a synthesizer. So it became necessary for me to either find a horn player, I had Kaya for a little while, I had Scorpion for a little while, and then I brought McKoy from Cape Town. I brought McKoy from Cape Town, but none of them stayed because they also wanted to pursue their own solo careers. Now I had this show in in Limpopo. And Jackson Limpopo was a must was big because of course I sing in Sitsongas. Yes. And people would come there for that particular song. But also I could not perform it on synth. I went to buy a saxophone because I could play flute. But obviously the blowing is different. Yes. I practiced the whole night. Just jazzowate. I had to practice jazzowhet the whole night so that I'm able to perform it the way it is. I bought the saxophone on Friday because I could no longer find anyone. So I bought the saxophone and I decided that night I'm going to practice and play jai suet. That's how I got to be a saxophone. A saxophonist. And you know what was very interesting about this?

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 52:06

You are such a product of accidents.

SPEAKER_03 52:09

You know, you could say fates, accidents, really. And I go on stage and I start playing. And in my mind, no, I can play. But remember, there are people who can hear better. Of course. I can see the sound engineer. He's from I think he was from America also. He was looking at me, and as I was playing, he was doing this. Imagine some you're playing and you're looking at this person, you see. So it obviously means that I was playing off-tune. You know, not that I was loud. My sound was so bad. My sound must have been very bad for him to react the way he did. What about the crowd? Well, you know, the crowd, you know, when you play for an audience that's probably uh already imbibed and uh, you know, they've been imbibing and uh inabrated people out there, then you think only hear the thing. Ah, that's what they want to hear. So, but it was the sound engineer that made me decide, okay, I'm going back, I'm gonna practice this thing until I know how to play it better. Did you play uh burn up? Oh, but burnout was thankfully, burnout did not have horns. Yeah, it was a vocal track, yeah. So I I played burnout.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 53:51

No, I mean the same nine. Yes, yeah. So I'm imagining you're busy with uh which one came first?

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Uh Jiv's away to him. So the or at least you could recover with uh recover with burnout.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 54:07

Yes, burnout was wow, and that's how the evolution a lot of people, I mean, it's not really. I know you might give me five or six names. Uh music is a universe of artists. A lot of, I mean, even just us uh in ordinary lives that are not as creatively demanding, it's very difficult to reinvent yourself. To go and have the humility to learn something from scratch and master it. Um be disorganized in a dramatically, you know, in a dramatic way then go again and start from scratch. Um it's it's not I don't I wonder if you agree, but um I put it to you that it is not easy. Most of us don't master the discipline of starting again. Do you have a philosophy?

SPEAKER_03 55:22

I wish I could say I do. But perhaps I should say that um I am I I consider myself a um a person with I'm a very ambitious person. I always believe it can be done. As long as it's man created, especially in the field in which you know you one practices. I I I am a musician. I can hear, I can feel, I can dance. And those are the three central parts of how one creates music. Once you can hear it, then you can translate, you can transport that into whatever particular instrument you choose to engage with. And I think that's what motivated and inspired me to say, well, if I can sing it, I can reproduce it in another instrument.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 56:33

Which of your works caught Miriam gave us attention? Yeah. I mean, where they they take a decision that you're violent one, egg.

SPEAKER_03 56:54

Well, I was recording my album overseas, but I think what is what more it was it was more about the discipline rather than really the musicianship that Miriam loved about me. And the fact that she saw me work, I worked hard. Were you recording in the scene? I was rec she was not recording. She lived in Brussels. And when I got signed with Virgin Records, they made me go and record in Brussels, record the album Chant of the Marche. And we heard that she's there, and she would come and visit us at the studio. She says, Ah, Pantona Basica. Yeah, she'd bring food, you know, every day. You know, she would sit there with us while record. And um then she just loved the way I was already, and it and she says to me, Why don't you write a song that I can sing on your album? I said, What why don't you write this? I said, Are you serious? She said, Yes. I'd love to sing on your album. You know, that night I thought to myself, what am I going to write? And I used to train, you know, I used to run every morning or swim.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 58:32

But this morning, you know, at Bushanganab in a swimming pool is so it has man. No, so it's if you really, really want to be bougie in life, we told the swimming pool and have habits of white people swimming to go where we had a Jake Orando. Okay, no problem.

SPEAKER_03 58:55

So I wake up in the morning, I start, I'm in the park, and I'm I'm running, and I'm thinking, let me write the love song for my mother. I'm gonna write a love song for my mother. Let me think about my relationship with my mother, and that would help me write a song. And I go back to going to the studio. There's a big piano there. It's uh it's uh it's um Stanway. I start playing the piano. Mother, do you know how much I love you? I hear the song. And I called Maza said, please come. I think I have the song. But I'm going to I'm going to ask you to help me translate some of the lyrics into Swahili. I know Mazak could speak Swahili. Then I wrote and wrote and then she translated in Swahili. And then I did the song Mama, if you've heard it, Masterpiece. She came in and she sang that song. And the next thing, she has to record an album. Can you oh her manager, Roberto Malioli, comes to me. He says, Are you Sippo? Said yes. Miri Makeba wants you to produce her album.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:30

Said, what? Miriam Akiba wants you to produce her album. And then Mazi comes. Baba, Mkella would produce the album. I'm Sippo. There's humor, Sikela, there's kyfers, there's Quincy, there's all these, and she knows all. You know, in you could call any of those people. I mean, I'm just from Soito. Why would you ask me to? She says, I've been watching how you were doing your work. And I thought, wow. Let me think it over. And then she gives me a a tape which has her grandson Lumumba's music, Walela.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:01:16

Oh I yes. You produced you produced Walela. I produced Walela. I want to cry.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:29

I produced Walela.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:01:31

But I can hear. Did you do the drum?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:33

I did everything.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:01:34

But I can hear it now. I mean, it had to be, you were, you were particularly because the song starts with the like hot sticks.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:49

Yeah. I and Lumumba gives us I start playing it. And I'm thinking of the home lines, I'm thinking of the string section, and I start you know imagining these parts in the song. Alright. And boom. Now Mazzi has brought some musicians from France, her backing band. You know what was very interesting about this. The drama was very aloof. He's a drummer. Oh. You know, I mean, they're playing Miriam Akaba, but the performance of Miriam Akaba. Who's this guy? We don't know him. Yes, we know him, a gala, we know all that. So I mean, the drama was really giving me attitude, you know. And then I I called them all. And I said, maybe we never met, you know, formally. Msipo, and you know, but the pianist was excellent, was beautiful and so humble and brilliant player, Lulu. So the drama was really had an attitude. So Mazis is here standing next. So I said, listen, Chief, perhaps you don't even know. I'm actually a drummer. More than anything else, you will either play the way I want you to play it, or else I will take the session and do it. So what is it going to be? You know, Marzi just looked aside and she said, Wow. Did she know you're a drummer? Yes. Good. She knew I was a drummer. Because when we performed with them in Lesotho, I was a drama with, you know, and Brachaifus had told them about me. You know, Brachaifus had told them, he said, Yo, there's this boy, you know, because when we went to Botswana, they had came, Bubrakatsi, Libra Leta, Libra Kwangwa, Judy Pukawana, came to Botswana and they didn't have a drama. So the students, you know, PC students, said, I man Brakatsi Donewoka Sibun.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

So when I met Brachaifas the first time, he says, Hey Moon, so he gives me a track called Haraj.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:40

I start playing Haraj.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

This is Brachai Fast. This is Bracai Fast.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:48

We had met him, we were hearing their music all the time. And then he says, no, he he tells this his letter for him. Now remember, I'm playing with Harari with the beach then and then out. And then they play Chabile. And then it's a 6-8 thing. But I'm just a drama then, you know. They don't know that I understand these things. They left when the other dramas were Bobra, Eli, and all these things. He wanna. And he's very scholastic, yes. And I start playing. But I even go beyond what the song sounds like. He says, Wow. Yeah, yeah, no, wait a kutsa man. He says, So I get employed to play with it on the tour. So Sisletter says to this to those guys, I'm supposed to be playing for free. Just let us say you must pay him. You know? You must pay him. He's not coming here to play for free. So that's how I got paid for two gigs. Anyway, so the drumming thing when we get to to Willela. It's something that, like I say, No, no, but completed.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:06:45

So you're confronting the drama. Yes. Some French. Oh, yes. Some French chair. And Miriam Mageba is standing here like, you're not delivering what I'm asking for. Yes. By the way. I'm a drama. Yes. So what happens from there?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:04

All the guys they call each other. To have a meeting. So I remain with Miriam. Mas says, ah. Yes, Baba. Canji? Hi, Bazo Found. Bazofund Bazo was Muntubuta O Muntose Kyran Tunji. Kakuri and a lowetra. So they come back, these guys. Lulu says, you know, in his French, English, sorry, manies. You know, he just realized he must he made his mistake and so no no, it's fine. As long as he does what we ask him to do, I don't have a problem. When musicians, I know, I know sometimes we have to deal with egos. People don't even know that other people can do better in what they do.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:08:02

And he played as instructed. I want to know when mama's son brought the song. Yes, grandson. Grandson. Did it did it have the drums? No. You wrote the drums. I I played a bit of it on it. Yeah, but I mean, in a way, he had a beat. It had a deal. I get the beat, yes. Whatever. Yes. You you decided that the drum should is was that your decision?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:45

Yes. And then, like I said, I wrote all the other parts of the world.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:08:50

Yeah, because the next song, I mean, before we move from Welela, it's a drum. It's like the drum is singing there. Well, it's an African instrument. And then Aluta Continua. Where did that come?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:09

Well, you know, Aluta Continua is a song also written by Mazzi's daughter. You know, Uzenzi. Zach wrote the song and she gave me the song. And I thought, wow, can I can we record this one as well? Then I brought in a guitar. It didn't have a guitar. And you know what's very interesting when I introduced the guitar, Mazzi started taking this guitarist from me. He took my guitarist away from me. Says, can I take him? Yeah. Because I was making him play some fantastic lines, you know, which she liked. Says, wow, and that's how Aluta Kojina was recorded.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:10:10

But also you got a chance to do something that is a staple in Ms. Miriam Mageba's sort of menu, and that's Pata Pata.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:21

But no, no, no. There's a song. What's it's even Spongy late Spongy Akumalo recorded it. And it's a food hammer. I brought, she didn't know that I knew the song. Now, those are songs that we had when we were little. Yeah. And I took it to, I went to to Brussels and I started playing the song on piano for it. How? You must hear it. It's different to how it was done by everybody else. She was so thrilled. She said, Yes. Let's record it. Satuva. It's called Satuva. And Patapata. And Patapata, of course. Yeah. Patapata, of course, was motivated by uh Roberto. Roberto, I mean, Patapata is a song the all Europeans loved. You know, and I had to add it onto the album. If we had to sell an album in Europe, we had to include Pata Pata.

unknown 1:11:36

Yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:11:38

I wanna do one more song with you. Song Jenny. I'm I suspect you know where I'm going. Wow. Tababu Siu. I know. That trick for you is it should be bad for everyone. I hope they people get the chance to listen to Tababusiu. Just the music genius, it is. And and uh you and I have had this debate before, and I I was trying to mobilize you that the next time somebody asks you of everything you've ever done, which is your best work, you must say, I am more closer to Tababusa. Speak for yourself. Well, you love Mamama Geba because you're going to you know uh drift towards you know your exile and uh yeah, you're not you you're not Dr.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:42

Njosi. Like I say, you you know music evolve. I had known someday that I will record the instrument in particular, Lisiba. Yes, yes. I have I didn't know how I was going to fit it into the music that I was making. But it fascinated you. But it's the instrument, I was always fascinated by it. Every time I went to Lisotou, I would go to the village, I would ask if anybody plays Lisi Mang. You know, I mean at some stage there was a gentleman, Datele Ballo. Datele Balo Lisibahan Kenke Huaning Ole Hatachi, Grantatele Balo Zeb, Hure Harlebat, because I, at you know, in fact, at that time, as a very conscious musician, you know, BC played a very critical role in how it influenced our creativity. Because everywhere we traveled, everywhere we toured, every country I'd be in, I would want to find an instrument central to those people. So for instance, when I went to Malawi, every day I'll hear this drum. You could hear it miles, you know. And I would ask people, what is this drum that you you know, that sounds different to every other drum? Then they they brought in a priest. I think he was he was Muslim. And they said, if you want someone to make you the drum, the priest can recommend. He came in the following day and he said, Do you want me to make a drum for you? I said, Yes, I'm a drummer. I'd love to hear the sound that I always hear here. How you you know what to do? He took me around, he took me to the bush. He said, I must point a tree. I pointed at a tree. He says, That's where your drum will come from. He prayed for the tree. He paid, he prayed for the tree before he cut it. And he made me a drum from the tree. Where is it? You know, when you live in Sword, you sometimes regret why. People will never understand and appreciate certain things the value. You know? They put it outside and the drum was that was was damaged. I tried to use why I tried probably the fact that it was left to the I had to give it away.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:15:56

But Lisiba's Yes, and your your work with Lisiba starts and ends in Tabasue. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:07

Every time I want I've I I you know I have this affinity with the basuto. Not only, you know, not only for for the people they are. I've always found a sense of humanity with those people. And historically, of course, King Moshesha what was that. He represented what we should be as a people, you know, and I think the instrument in itself for me related that kind of person.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:16:44

Did you did you try to learn how to play? I tried.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:48

And did you master it? I strive I did once, you know, the technique. And this they said to me, Murat, now you can imagine. It means I have to spend a year.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:19

And there's you know, with uh it's not just your audio, it's it's not just an instrument. People do not understand what instruments mean on this continent. Yes. And the the the religious impact these instruments have on a society, the role they play. For instance, if you listen to Tababu Siv, for instance, the way I played it on record and the way I went it played live. Yes. It has two different meanings. Absolutely. Two different meanings. So I always try to understand the purpose. So what was explained to me is that how lili how lemo mudisa uh homotahao di tla ukla gamho obapal olizan lisibakate. Your flock would be able to extricate itself from the rest because of the sound that you play. And that thing had remained with me for the 30 years. That one day I really want to play, I want to record this instrument. And there are basutus in Pymville, and every time these guys passed by, I would ask them, but when you see brought in Data Tabang to me. He's brilliant. And he started playing for me. I was in the studio. Every day he would play for me. He'd play. And I said, We're going to record this. I just said Ntatum Mulat, Kupau Bapal. And he played, We record it. And that's how Tababusi was created. And it's only now that people are responding. Remember, this was done 16 years ago. Yes. Or more actually. Yeah. 1678. It's only now that people are reacting and saying, What? Oh, but Tababusi was a delivery. I mean, even young guys, you know, and more especially some of them are students, say, listen, Prasip. But what were you thinking? Yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:19:45

I I want to go back to the by way of drawing a sort of a conclusion. I want to go back where we started. Oliver Tambu. He had several accidents. Oh. One of which is the fact that OR was supposed to be a priest. He had desired to be a priest, but I read somewhere as well. He was a musician as a young star, sang in a choir.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:24

You know what's very interesting that you see, including President Tabo was a flute player.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:20:28

Yes. President played. President also was in theater. Yes. I asked him the other day that can you still do ballroom dance? Because you used to do it, it says, I can't remember.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:44

I remember one time we, you know, we were campaigning, you know, it was during election. Yeah. And I played the flute. And I went to him and I said, I heard you play the flute. Can you still play? Yeah. So sticks. What are you doing to me? It's many as. And he tried, you know, he did produce sound. He did produce because he still remembered the technique. But I said, no, it's fine. You're good as a president. Livia was the music to watch.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:21:16

But do you do you because I mean I think there is something in the in one of the other things is they say he was part of a group of boys, eight, I think of them, that sang and they were broadcasted on Grahamstown radio station. Oara. I mean, there was a sense in which at least that generation had people that were multi-dimensional enough. Omgov wrote music and he played a guitar. In Robben Island, there are several compositions associated with him. Somebody was telling me actually that the song, Asimbona Ngu Mandela, was actually Omgov's composition. And Omgov had sung the song because around the fact that at some point Mandela was separated from them at Victor Foster. The song is about Asim Bonang, Tina La Pikuna. Oh wow. Apparently it's a description of that moment. Makes sense. But I'm saying these people were. He was himself a sportman. An athlete. And so on and so forth. I mean, we we can count several. Do you think that there might be a crisis in that those who come after after him, after maybe the the Youth League founders? Perhaps what characterizes the crisis and their relationship with the arts is because they themselves were not artists. At one stage or the other, they never took creative culture as a way of maybe that's why they don't, for the last 20 years of South Africa's democracy, all we've heard are ministers, as I understand, who are themselves not artists.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:06

It's a very interesting point that you're making because it we've always wondered why is it that um all the ministers maybe barring to a limited extent Paolo Jordan, most of them, you know, really the relationship with the us was very minimal.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:24:32

Or instrumentalist.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:34

Yes. That you know, just they think you are playing or playing, you know. And uh it it has always made me wonder why is it you know the us has not been taken that seriously. Now that you're making this very you know interesting point about OR, this is why we because of his love for the arts and music in particular, this is where we had artists like Abdullah Ibrahim, we had Jonas Kwangwa, the Amanda group, which became part of the cultural group of the African National Congress.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:25:17

I don't think he had Brah, yes, yes, yes, Balega herself, and Brawali. I mean, there was this generation of where are those figures in this ANC? Where are they? Do you see them?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:38

I don't. For them, music is about by the way, we have elections, come and play. You know, come and be part of the celebration of bringing the people to vote for us. We're more like now we're more like Canon Forder than really part of a you know advancement of a civil society that you know. I I read in a book uh by uh A A. G. Grayling, Grayling, if you want to call it called A Minimum of Things. And in the in that book, he states specifically that unless you develop the us along science and mathematics, you cannot have a holistically developed society. And I thought, wow.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:26:30

What do you think is announcing itself as a future with a GNU? Maybe beginning with our current captain of the arts, the current minister. What do we have there in in this chat?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:58

Um I'm always averse to casting aspirations on people lest I I find myself at the you know receiving end of the same. And I strongly believe that um the um the the um the decision remains with the head. If the head itself does not believe the importance of the role, whoever you bring in there will be on the basis of what your thoughts are.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:27:43

Do you think what thoughts does Ramaposa tell us he has about the arts with the appointment of Mackenzie?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:54

Interestingly, interestingly, Cyril loves music because while I know is that he also used to uh sponsor a classical, you know, some classical orchestra or something like that. So one would have imagined that if he loves music at that level, he probably would have maybe he was being pretentious.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:28:19

Every rich man tries to have a jazz high arts concert, or they'll be buying some expensive artworks they cannot explain. I love that they it's like the cycle of rich people there. Yeah, you gotta have an orchestra that you are I don't know. I mean, I'm just yeah provoking back. Yeah, yeah. What for? It's a provocate provoking. Is the appointment of Mackenzie tell us what what do you think that means the arts are saying to Shim as a president?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:55

Look, you know, when Mackenzie was brought into this space, I was interviewed by um some journalists, what my views were. I always believe you you give someone firstly the benefit of the doubt. But you know what is very sad about this author? Throughout the entire process, we have always been given someone who would be wanting when it comes to the arts. Few of them understood what the arts should, you know, the importance of the arts and how they should impact on society to evolve into a society that's appreciative of the arts. Barring, of course, uh the T TM, President Becky, because he himself had been a flute player in a in some orchestra. So he probably may have noticed that Joe Paolo Jordan is an academic who loves music. He probably served the arts better. Do you know that I was I was expelled from a meeting? I've never told anyone this. I was expelled from a meeting because I questioned the processes of advancing the arts within the government of the African National Congress. We were called to a meeting and I said, we're always called to these invisals, but never at any stage are we presented with a document that says we're taking it from here beyond. They said, Well, if you don't want to be in this meeting, you must never come to meetings anymore. I was never invited further on from that. And who did But I was I was c I was comfortable, Paulo Jordan, but I was I was okay with that. I was not beholden to politics. Paulo Jordan expelled you. Yeah, he told me that I should not come to meetings if I'm going to question how they they run the arts. And I said, well, you know, John John Carney was was a witness to it, and he always reminds me that he says, we couldn't believe it. But I was okay with it. You know, I was okay with it. The struggle for me was not was not about individuals. The struggle for me was I was part of a I'm a child of the struggle, whether I was here or outside. So and the struggle does not belong to individual certain particular people. It belongs to a people, you know. And uh since we, you know, it's almost like uh when you've got uh remnants of food that was not, you know, finished in the house. You have a choice of either saving it for the next day or you take it and dump it in the pin. That's the that's how the arts is being treated in this country.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:32:02

That's not the note I want to end this. Of the younger generation, the younger South Africans. Um who's your favorite and most go-to artist today of the younger guy?

SPEAKER_04 1:32:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:28

You know the unfortunate part or the fortunate part is that uh there is a plethora of younger generation of musicians. Very they they come in different form, you know. I would say I love Billy's uh thinking in music on how he sees the role of music from that perspective. But I do love also some of the younger uh creative artists. I love a young player musician called Manja Spicere from Drum Peace. Yes, manja from Drum Peace is one of the most creative artists. He's not young anymore. It doesn't matter. Well, for me, he's a young I know Manza Speaker is probably one of the most creative musicians, yeah, but also you do have the the guys who started the new movement. The Mapiano, Gabza, you know, you do listen to Gabza. I do listen to them, and Mapuries, but the most difficult thing is everything now of the Mapiano sounds the same. So you can never tell what is theirs, you know, as they created it, because everybody is jumping on that piano. So between the three of between those three that I've mentioned, I would love to believe those will probably be the musicians that I revere most. Belly Munama, uh Manla Speaker Manla Spikiri, and Kabzari Small and Deep or Porissa.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:34:25

I love this. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much, lovely.