African Renaissance Podcast
The African Renaissance Podcast hosted by Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi provides a stage for vital conversations with actors working to improve the lives of African people. It provides sharp analysis & critique of Africa's social, political & economic history.
African Renaissance Podcast
Episode 38 - Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma: Exile, Leadership & South Africa Today
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In conversation with Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi explores the extraordinary life and political journey of one of South Africa's most prominent leaders. The conversation also examines the ANC's leadership, the challenges facing women in political leadership, the 2007 ANC conference, internal party democracy and candidate selection. Dr Dlamini-Zuma further shares her views on international solidarity, South Africa's relationship with the African continent, unemployment, the economy, undocumented migration and the political challenges facing the country.
Thank you so much for for creating time. I I often wonder you are one of the most talented African leaders. And you have been tried and tested. In the language of the ANC, you have gone through the eye of the nettle. The ANC has invested so much in your development. Not just as a cater servicing South Africans, but the whole continent, the rest of the world. After such an investment in this important talent, I just wonder, what is the ANC doing with you today? What do you wake up officially to do for the ANC every day?
SPEAKER_00Well, remember the ANC is the leader of society. So you don't have to be doing everything every day for the ANC, you do for society generally. So I do all sorts of things. I get invited to meetings to be keynote speaker. I get invited to the continent. I do my deployment work in the ANC. I yeah, I'm still active. As I said when I retired from government, that I'm not retiring from life. I'm retiring from government. So I'm still using what the ANC invested me in me in the general, not just for ANC.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYeah. So there's no role, per se, properly to say you are the head of elections.
SPEAKER_00No, I'm the chair of the subcommittee on health. Okay. And education, science and technologies. Yes. And I belong to the International Relations Subcommittee as well. Yeah.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziOkay. I will come back to that. I would like to request that we begin with the important anniversary of the seventh years of Women's March in 1956, which often occasions the country to reflect about women, the contribution of women in South Africa's development in the struggle and the fight really against violent masculinities and patriarchy. What are your reflections about this 70 years? It seems to me a very, very long time. 70 years since Lilian Ngoi and many, many activists, I think over 50,000, marched against passes in 1956.
SPEAKER_00Well, first, I think we should reflect about the role of women generally before we get to the match. Because they play a very important role before they even go to the match. If women decided to go on strike, that would be the end of the human race. And the lesson of the labor of human race. That would be the end of the human race. True. Right? They give birth. Who can say they've never shared a body with a woman? They look after you when you can't do anything for yourself except cry. So in the home, in humanity, women are responsible. That's a very important national service. They're not paid for it, but they do it. In the home, who is really the person who keeps the home? Yes, men build a house, but women create the home. You know, I'll tell you a story of a woman whom the husband always said, I work hard and I go to work every day, and you just sit here and do nothing. So this woman decided, okay, let me do what he says. Let me do nothing. So she woke up, didn't make the beds, didn't do anything, didn't clean the house, didn't bathe the kids, didn't change them from their pyjamas and nighties. Just left, just did nothing except to just feed the children, because they must eat. That's all she did, just fed the children. But left the house dirty, everything. Left his shirt to dirty where it had been, everything. So when he came back from work and they found the house dirty, and the kids were coming to him in their pyjamas in the evening, and clearly they hadn't washed. So he says, Why is this and this and this and this? She says, Because I didn't do it. Because I do nothing. I did nothing. Then he realized how much work she does without being paid, but to keep this home going. So we forget that that women keep their homes going. And they keep communities. Of course, because they are in charge of the home of communities and so on, they feel the oppression even worse than anybody else. Right. And because they care about communities, about people, they could not but participate in the struggle. So that freedom can be achieved for everyone, for their children, for themselves, for everyone. So that much. But they decided fine. They organized in an impossible situation to get so many women to go to the union building. And they were not fighting for themselves, they were fighting for all of us. For all of us, yes. And whatever we have today, the partial freedom that we have today, they contributed to it, not just on that day, but generally women have always participated in the struggle for freedom in this country. And they are responsible for what we have. I'm saying partial freedom because I don't think we've got complete freedom, but what we have, they contributed a lot to. So that day is just but one incidence in what women were doing, but it's an important one. Yes. Yes.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziDid that particular history of this brave participation of women under brutal conditions to fight and contribute to the liberation dignity of black people? Did that all of that have any bearing, any influence in your decision as a young black woman to also participate in the struggle? Could you take us through not only the historical moment in which this decision is made, that I think I want to participate in the struggle and whether that reference was important, that as a matter of fact, women have been participating just like these who were leading in 1956 much.
SPEAKER_00Yes, in a way. Sometimes you would say, Today, I want you to teach you real history. Because I'm going to teach you two types of history. The history that you must remember and carry through your life, and the history that you must forget when you've written your exams. And then he'll teach us the history that is in the books. He says this is what you must know to pass your exams. And then he'll teach us about the oppression, about the struggle, about people on Robin Island. Then he says, this is the history must carry through your life. But never put it in your exam paper. Because if you do, you won't only fail, but you'll also be arrested. So that for me was a big eye-opener as well. So knowing about that history helped to shape my views, but also the oppression itself and the and the racism. Because from that secondary school, which was a we only had black teachers, I went to a high school where we had black and white teachers. And that's where I saw the racism at its best. I'll give you examples. The teachers had two staff rooms, one for whites and one for black teachers. There was only one person who made tea, so he'll start in the white staff room, make tea for the white teachers, then go downstairs to make tea for the black teachers. So that in itself was an issue for us. But then one day one of the black teachers came to our class, very upset. We could say he's upset. So we asked him, it was immediately after tea, why are you so upset? You look upset. And he says, Yes, I am. So what happened at the time? So he tells us a story. He says, the person who makes tea came down to make tea there. And when he was giving them their tea, he was a cup short. So he went upstairs because there were plenty of cups upstairs and took a cup, came down and gave it to him. So as he was drinking his tea, a white teacher came from upstairs and just stood in front of him like this. And he says at first he thought maybe he wants to talk to him, but he doesn't want to disturb him whilst he's drinking his tea. So he didn't make much of it. He thought when he finishes his tea, maybe he will say what he wants. Then when he finished his tea, he took the cup and smashed it on the floor and said so that it never finds its way back up. That's the type of racism and humiliation that Africans were going through. So the teacher told us this story, so we we understood why he was so upset. Another example, one teacher can't were forced to study religious studies at the time. So this teacher who taught us religious studies was a white teacher. So he comes to class, says, Hey, I don't know how to teach today because I don't know how to explain the subject for today. So we say, What's difficult? He says, No, because the subject I'm supposed to teach you is about David's dream. But I don't know how to explain a dream because I don't know whether Africans dream. I don't know whether Africans dream, so I don't know how if you don't dream, how would explain the concept of dreaming? So he said, don't worry, we dream. So don't have to explain the concept of dreaming. But can you see? Yes, yes, clearly. Then another one came, says to us, it doesn't matter how educated, how much education Africans can get, but they will never reach the level of white people. So then we said to him, Well, maybe you are right, but your level Africans have reached and surpassed. And he was angry, but and then when Fervo died, we were given a day of class. And when he was buried, we're collected into a classroom, into the hall, not classroom, and we had to listen to the funeral by force. Or on the radio. On the radio. That's the first time I I knew what a state funeral. Okay. Then when Lutulli died, we had taught in that high school. We're not even informed. We heard it through the grapevine, not just formally through the school. So for me, all those things told me that this system needs to be fought.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziThe the the interesting thing here, maybe before we'll come back to the politics, is this at the time, I mean, to to qualify for medical school. You know, I I'm a doctor, but it's those ones of uh uselessness. Just take us through uh it it all seems normal now, uh but to to not only apply for college at the time for any subject, uh but specifically for medicine, it must have been on your part firstly, the type of of work you had to put.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, before the type of work I had to put, you remember I said I studied geography, history, agriculture. So on our third year at that secondary school, the inspect the inspectors used to come to the school and talk to the students to see. So one of the things he asked us, what do we want to be? I said, I want to be a doctor. And he laughed and then became serious and said, seriously? I said, yes. He said, How can you be a doctor when you're studying agriculture and you're not doing maths, you're not doing science. So I said, Well, but I want to be a doctor. And he said, it's not possible with the subjects we are doing. And he left. Then end of the year, he sent a letter to the teachers to say there was a child there who said wants to be a doctor. Now, if she still wants to be a doctor, she must go to Adam's College. It was then called Amantum Dote because there is a new course that has been introduced for children like her who have not done math science but who want to do medicine and other. So she should go there. But you must explain to her that instead of doing two years, she'll have to do three. Uh-huh. Because the first year she'll have to do math and science for the first three years that she didn't do and write exams. And if she passes, then she can do the two years with those subjects. And that's what I did.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYou extended your stay in high school.
SPEAKER_00Yes. At first I was, I said to my father, no, but my classmates will think I failed. And he said, So what if they think? Because you would not have failed. So he convinced me that no.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziSo you were working very, very hard.
SPEAKER_00Trying, yeah.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziNo social life, no boyfriends, nothing.
SPEAKER_00Uh, what does it matter? I mean, you can still work hard and have a boyfriend. Oh, you actually study together. Because you don't do what they do these days. You don't sleep. Okay. You just socialize. Okay, okay.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYeah. The the the high school itself was there any political movements um in your stay in both uh the college as well as the previous one of the forms?
SPEAKER_00No, there were no political movements, but politics was instilled by the reality. Yes, yes. Ma, this would have been the 60s. Yes.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziOkay. I mean, I was picking up the death of Lutuli that. Um I uh this is interesting to me, and I'll tell you why I am asking it. Uh, there's lots of young people audiences that watch us. We we we pass over thinking these questions of studying hard, balancing it with extramural activities is something of no importance. But it actually is when you are young and you have to, as you say, do another year, you have to deal with peer pressure, uh, but also.
SPEAKER_00But I also did extramural activity. I want to hear, did you play netball? No, I was in the drama.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziTheater? Yes. I can't see you act. Oh. Pella, even when you arrived here, these young people were very scared. What are you scared for? She's too serious. She's very feisty. She asks difficult questions.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no. I was in the drama. Wow. And in the debating. But the debating was at first difficult because I was very shy when I was young. I'm still M. It's just that I've managed how to deal with it. Yes. We all have. So I did debate and drama as extramural. I sports, I was not very good. I just did it for fun. Yeah, not for competition. But you were very good as an actor. Oh yeah. We were very good because that time there was no television. But there was radio. Radio Zulu took our drama and and broadcasted it in Radio Zulu. The drama you were in. The drama I was in. I see.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziDo you remember what character you played?
SPEAKER_00Yes. But no, it was a a drama about just life in the life young people, uh, weddings and stuff like that.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziI think you're concealing something. I'll get back to it, but no, no, don't. You are in college now, you enter medicine. How did that feel?
SPEAKER_00Well, actually, I didn't enter medicine from college. Because at medical school then, people were failing a lot and they were getting excluded. We fail you. Yeah, you get excluded. Academically. Yes, like oh, Steve Beagle and many others. So I was scared that if I go to medical school directly, I'll be excluded. I see. So I asked my dad if I can do a BSC degree first. Smart. So that when I go to medical school, if I get excluded, I've got a fallback. I see. But also I would not have to do the first two prelim and first year. I'll just get straight to. Yeah. So I then did a first degree at the University of Zululand. Yeah. Ongoy. Ongoy, yes. I was a student at Ongoy.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziIs it where you fell in love now with politics proper?
SPEAKER_00That's when Sasso started.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYes. You were in campus when Sasso, when you when the break from NUSAS happened? Yes. Were you in that conference?
SPEAKER_00Yes. I was in Sasso. We then it was agreed that we we we no longer. Because I was in the Catholic students movement, which was mixed. So Sasso started. When Sasso started, then I was active in the English social land as a Sasso student. Then I left. I went to medical school. I continued being active there.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziDid did you work with uh some of these chaps? I mean, I'm thinking ongoing. I'm trying to scrap my head, but Steve, Bani Pikiana, Steve was at medi.
SPEAKER_00Steve. No, Spoon Debele was. I never worked with Jabulu. I'm thinking in Jabulo. N Debele. I Steve, when they started Sasso, they were at medical school. So they would come to University of Sululan to recruit us. So I worked with Bo Welile. Msap. And at medical school I worked with Umslangapat, Dr. Ms. Pat unfortunately passed away recently. So the Ralph Umkichima, who's now the chair of the TC of the ANC. Yeah. Even Joel Netitzen came to medical school just before I left. Yeah.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziWe are literally sort of in the 70s, so to speak, now, Elinor. Oh, I in the 70s, yes. And uh are you able to uh maybe let me ask two questions. Firstly, how did Sasso fare on the question of women? Where the I mean, we know the ANC's uh begins and it begins with uh a boys' choir. Shalot is there, but women are not even members. So how does it compare?
SPEAKER_00No, Sasso Steve Bigel had the woman vice deputy president when Sasso was women were part of it about 10 to 18, so we were part of Sasso from the beginning. There was no and played central roles. Yeah, played the roles that everybody plays. There was no discrimination. No, Sasso was not like that. And at the We only discriminated against white people.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziAs you should.
SPEAKER_00That's why I was looking as black men, you are on your own.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYes. So you never took issue with the fact that it is a man that you are speaking about. What do you mean? I mean, when the slogan says black men, you are on your own. Um is was this man the universal human as opposed to? Universal human. Okay. Not men. Yes. And that was understood. Yes. Okay. Yes. Tell us about this the second question, then this conference in which you become the deputy president of the entire country of students.
SPEAKER_00It was held in Hamaskral here.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziWow. Yes. Was there a university there?
SPEAKER_00There were training colleges. Doctors. So we went there. I I just went as a delegate. There wasn't during those days. I don't know. We I mean, there were no lists or anything. You just go to the conference. And I was just surprised when my name was raised. And when I said hi, they said, no, we went to. And that's why that's how I was elected. Who was the president? When we went, or who the president who was elected at the time. At the time, yeah. It was, oh no. I don't remember his name. But it was a man. Yes. Was elected.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziAnd what were the key programs as a generation at the time? I mean, I'm supposing at this time Steve is already under house arrest. And so he wouldn't have not been in the conference.
SPEAKER_00Was he under house arrest at the time? No.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziSo he would have he was in attendance as well?
SPEAKER_00He was, let me see. No, he probably wasn't. The programs that we were involved in, he was now because he had been excluded from medical school. He was no longer a student. He was no longer a student. Because he had failed and they excluded him. He was not a student anymore. But remember, after SARS, then other the consciousness organization was started like BCM, which was now for non-students. Yeah. Yes. So he was not at the conference. But our program as SARSO differed from place to place. For instance, as medical students, because when I was elected, I was already a medical student. We would go out weekends to do literacy classes for people who couldn't read and write. We also helped students who were struggling with meds. But we also went to places where people needed medical services. And we ran clinics as medical students. Yeah. Those were the main problems. But in some places, people during holidays would also do bow holes to for to for water access. So it was programs like that to just be part of community work.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziSo how how and under what circumstances do you get to leave the country?
SPEAKER_00As students, Sasso students, we used to work together and we would say have sports activities. One campus go visits another campus and so on. On this particular occasion, we visited the campus in Swaziland. So we met ANC people there. And they kind of recruited us. But also in in South Africa, um General Masondu had been on Robin Island, and when he was released, he was not allowed to go home to Johannesburg. He was house like he was like house arrest. He had to be in Imlaze. Okay, one person at the time. But we broke the rules. We would go and see him. And he would also give us some politics. And then Smoonde Bele was working in Swaziland as a librarian. So he was there legally. He had gone there legally. So but he was then doing ANC underground. So he was a courier, taking stuff from the inside. So he was also the one who was our courier. Then he got arrested. And I don't know what they found in me. Because he had taken his car for service. So I don't know whether they found material in his car. I've never actually asked him. But he got arrested. And they started looking for us. And it was then that we had to. So there was a gate. So some students came to us to say, hey, they are at the gate. These are the names they are looking for. And I was the only woman that they were looking for. The others were men. So we quickly talked before they came. And we said, okay, what they will have is our photos. So the ones who will search the female hostel will have my photo. But those who search the male hostel will probably not have my photo. So I went to the male hostel. So when they came to the room I was in, I said, no, I'm a visit, I'm visiting my boyfriend. So they arrested me still for trespass, not for what they were looking for. And fortunately, there were a number of nurses who were also arrested for trespass. So in the morning, when we got to the police station, they said the book that where they write the cases was full. They didn't have anyone. So we'll just appear in court without them having. So the in court was said to a trespassing. And I sent word to the students that they mustn't protest and say I'm a student. But the one who was the resident manager was a white teacher. He af afterwards he wanted to kind of say, but we were given we were not put in prison. We had to pay a fine, so the student paid the fine. I never went back because I knew they would be following me. When when they said when they were picking me for trespass, they said, Where are you from? So I said, I'm from Lazi. But I'm a nurse at King Edward. So what address? So I gave them my uncle's address. Because I wanted to know when when they've picked up that it was me. Because when they've picked up, they'll go there and look for me. But I never went back. I started hiding. Then I got a message from my uncle because one day I decided to go there and check. Because there were no phones that time. So when I went, my uncle said, Go, go, go, go. They are looking for you. They came there a day to look for you, so you can't stay because we don't know. Maybe the neighbors will tell them. So then I knew they were looking for me for sure. So I decided I must live there.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziI must leave there. What about medicine now?
SPEAKER_00Well, for me, liberation was more important than medicine. So there some stayed because they said it was more important for them to be doctors. But for me, I felt no. So two of us at the time left, but later Joel also left. So when we got to exile, the ANC said, no, we can't waste all these years. You have to go finish your studies. So the one that I left with was Ralph. He was in his sixth year. I was in my fifth year. So they said, no, this can't happen. You must finish your studies. So ANC needs doctors, and South Africa will need doctors anyway. So that's what happened.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziSo you completed the medicine in exile.
SPEAKER_00In exile, yes. So my medical degree is a Prestel, it's from Prestil Medical School.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYes, yes, yes. So you arrived in uh exile 1976, it would seem. Yes. What was the condition of women in the ANC in exile? Uh and this question of you know training, the camps, women leadership. Uh how critical? Or rather, what was your assessment? What would you say was the condition of women in relation to participation in all decision structures as well as the question of leadership?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, by then the ANC had evolved. Um women were taken seriously. As I I I was not in the camps, but there were women commanders even in the camps, right? So women were taken seriously. We also had Bo Marshope, Mam Bo Mam Simon, who also Ruth Mambat and others who were also in the leadership. So the women were part of leadership at the time. And since I qualified in Britain, I I was participating in the British structures. At some stage I was the deputy president of the regional organization, and at some stage I was the chair of the regional organization. So women were participating in the youth structures, in the women's structures, but also in the ANC structures.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziThere is this interesting debate over the years about SASO's links with the ANC. And you've counted a lot of people that would have been very prominent leaders and activists of the South African Student Organization who end up in exile in the ANC. Would you say more or less? SASO was more or less it gave a lot of cadence into the ANC, or it was just always sharply divided between PAC, ANC, and some people who were so independent that they started as APO.
SPEAKER_00Some went to start their own black consciousness, but a lot went to the ANC, probably some to the PAC, but quite a lot went to the ANC. Yes.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziHow do you explain that? And you said you were recruited in Swaziland. I'm curious. Who was doing the recruiting? Was it uh any lead, the prominent leader we know?
SPEAKER_00Well, at some stage, the former president was there. And some stage, oh even which former president, both of them.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziBut which one recruited you? Who was running processes at the time of your recruitment?
SPEAKER_00No, let me explain. They were there, but the person who recruited us was not. Directly them. I see. There was also somebody they worked with, Albert Lomo. Yes, he was the one who also worked with us more closely. Yes. Um and as I say, Spoon Debelli was there, even Tokyo was there. So what? But as a student. Yes. Yes, as a student. So yeah.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziLet's go into the into this journey of the ANC. Any training? Of course, these chaps force you to people don't know this, but it was actually, it seems, a big thing. ANC controlled quite more strictly who became soldiers, who became this and the other. And you are telling us that there was a very tough decision to say you can't abandon medicine. But Sean, you came back and uh would you like to take us through what activities and roles towards then uh 1990 you specifically played in Swaziland?
SPEAKER_00Okay, after I'd finished my studies, of course I worked a bit in um in uh in the UK because when you finish medicine, you can't just have to do your internship and so on. So I was then, I worked with in in Swazil, in in the UK at the time, Bo Aziz Pahat, Bo Palo Jordan and others were there. They were no longer students, they were activists, and there were also senior comrades who were there. So I was then asked to get training, um which was very specific training on how to transport things, so how to hide things so that nobody can tell what we are carrying. Um I got that training and some uh training on how to work in an underground situation because I was told that because of my surname and my profession, I could fit better working in Swaziland.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziOh Zamine, yeah. Yes. Yes, it was a mini land that one.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And then I got some, I didn't get to the big track camps. I was then taken to Mozambique to be trained there. And not all the training that you do in the camps. And there there was uh Kessel, there was Surepkin, there were others. Yeah, then after that then allowed me to go they I joined what they were calling the KZ Machinery that was based in Swaziland, where there were comrades there who were full-time ANC soldiers underground. Um but myself, I had to work as a doctor and fit in as a Laminic and not be known to be linked to the ANC, to the extent that the way I was recruited to work in Swaziland, the ANC worked it in a very clever way. Because when we were in the UK, when there were national days, the ANC would be invited to the national days of different countries. So that particular year, when it was the National Day of Swaziland, they sent me to represent the NC at that national day. And the High Commissioner said, Oh, you're a doctor, you're a lamine, why are you here? Why are you not in Swaziland? So he said, Would you be interested? I want to recruit you to go and work. We need doctors in Swaziland. So I said, Yeah, no, that's fine. I would be quite happy to work there. So he thinks he recruited me. He doesn't know that it was done. Our plan that I should go there. So he got forms in in a week or so, signing forms. And then I was recruited to go and work in Swazaland.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziSo you operated almost clandestinely, like as a just the doctor, yeah. I see.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I didn't operate as an ANC operative in Swazland. I I I was a doctor.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziHow long did this last? Five years. Before they discovered, before it was known that you're political.
SPEAKER_00I wouldn't say they knew, but they they, you know, in I I arrived there in 1980. And in 1981, the the massacre, Matola massacre happened. And the people who were killed in Matola were people I we worked with. So I went to the funeral in Matola. But apart now we know at the time we were not sure, one of the people that was in the missionary was a South African agent. When we went there, for instance, after the funeral, him and Spiwenganda's brother who passed away when we were still in exile, was killed. Asked to use the car that I was driving. It wasn't my car. I had not bought a car then. It was their car, but they had left it there when I was coming to the funeral. They said I should drive that car. So they used my car. And then when we were supposed to go, they came and they were they were late. So they said, Oh, where is your luggage? I was also carrying some people from home whose relatives had been killed. So they said, Oh, let's pack your things. They packed our things in the boot. So we went. Got to Swazland. Of course, they always searched your car. Say they opened the boot. They asked me to open the boot, they went. And I was quite relaxed because I wasn't carrying anything until they said, Maggie. Doctor. What's this? There was a box of detonators and a book of how to make bombs. And I didn't know it was there. So they said, Doctor, what is this? I said, I don't know. I said, but it's in your boot. I said you know at African funerals cars get uh used by all people. So the ANC people, because we had gone to an ANC funeral, we're using this car. They must have forgotten these things. I know nothing about them. So they believed me. So and I I mean I was telling the truth that I didn't know because I could not have kept them there. I would have hidden them. So but I think they started connecting with I know ANC people. But they didn't really find anything else to to link me. Um and then probably they only linked me through marriage because I got married when I was in Swaziland. Was it a big party? No. Okay. I'd never wanted a big wedding. How many people attended? We just went to sign. Oh and then had dinner. So you owe yourself in the evening. I think there were 11 people. So no step. What step? I never wanted it, no. Even when I was growing up, because I was shy. Because I was shy, I always said to my mother, me, could say, enough people to be fed by a chicken. Yeah. And my mother didn't like it. Because I could imagine myself walking, everybody looking at me.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYour mom, at least, and your father make it to the signing and all of that. No, they didn't know, but they knew about it. Yeah. They understood the condition of you being a leader in the liberation struggle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, my father understood it very well. Yeah.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziSo no masenbuil and sha any step, my thought. What step? You don't want it. When's with routine? No. Not for me to. Not for me. No. I think maybe majority of that particular life is well known in the South African record. An excellent Minister of Health. I don't want to converse all those grounds, except before we leave this chapter, this interesting story about 1990 and how you came back. You were telling me about it because of our common the person we commonly know. Well, the the the the story of how you came back.
SPEAKER_00Well, when the negotiation initial negotiations had been done for the for the exiles to come back. Said she needs volunteers who would come back with her to South Africa. Were the first exiles, besides the three who had negotiated to come back. So he wanted volunteers. So I was one of the volunteers. At the time I had a breastf I was breastfeeding a baby. But I decided it's fine.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziWere you not scared? I mean, people were doubtful whether the declaration and the deal was real, whether the was just laying you in to finish you. Were you not scared? With the dumb baby, of course, I mean.
SPEAKER_00So if we had to die for our country.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziWas this your second or the first child? The last. The last. Yeah. Tutugile. Tutugile, yes. But 1990, you come back. Uh, where were you posted?
SPEAKER_00Oh, my instruction was that my first day I must report at Comblete Riguala's place. So we went to Meritbeck, to Meritbeck, but we had to fly to Deppin because that time I don't think there were flights to Meritzbeck. I was met with Marcos by Marcosikoza and an Anglican priest, white Anglican priest. We drove to Merritsbeck. But when we were on Ettendale Road, just at a distance, we saw maybe five, maybe six men carrying rifles, and they just closed the road. And the Anglican priest who was driving said, if we stop there, we're dead. So I'm going to go there at full speed. I'm going to drive as fast as this car can go. And that's what he did. And when they saw that he was coming at that speed, they split. They opened way. But one of them shot the car. But fortunately the bullet didn't hit anyone, it hit the car. But she was one year and a bit. Yeah.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziDo you think she remembers?
SPEAKER_00Not consciously, but I think subconsciously. Yeah. But I also went with her to all ANC meetings because I didn't have money to hire a babysitter. Yeah. So I went with her. So she would come back and imitate what was happening in the ANC. Yeah. And then after that, I was then told that because that time the ANC wasn't MKZN, had three regions. It wasn't a provincial. So I was sent to Southern Natal. So that's where I then we started building branches and doing all that. Yeah.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziUm, as I said, I I I mean, I don't want to get into your ministerial live parliament, da da da. I do have a very wonderful memory. I served a little bit uh with you in the benches, but uh, you know, my powerful time. I even uh climbed on a chair. I think that shape is where do you voted against against uh the decision or the resolution in the house there that the ANC had uh communicated. So we keep that in mind. I will come back to that joyful moment for me. I don't think it was that much joyful for you. Uh a lot of people and suddenly my head uh think about the watershed moment for the healthiness of the ANC as the 2007 conference, where you were available to be the deputy president. And I want to ask about your own thoughts of that moment uh and the decision of leadership, uh, which included uh conference not choosing uh yourself as a deputy president is is in your view the problem of ANC and women leadership at the presidency because that has not happened in its entire life. I know you said it evolved, but this evolution didn't quite really break through in 2007 still. Do you think it was partly this important gender question that men and me women still find it hard to accept authority of a woman at the home? Or are the factors attained such that uh the beginning of the deterioration as we see it today of the ANC could have started with some of the leadership decisions in 2007.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it was a combination of both. I think they obviously didn't want a woman deputy president uh because there was a man that was contesting, uh, but also maybe I was contesting on the wrong side as well.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziWhy would you say it's a wrong side?
SPEAKER_00According to them, yeah, yeah, because there were two slates if you remember. On the other slate, they'd wanted me to be chair. But I I thought it wasn't going to be a good thing to be chair, because you know people keep saying ex, ex. So I didn't want to be in the same top top six, it was top six then with the ex because that's what people would always call me.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYou mean ex uh husband? Yes. Oh, I nearly solved for ex in my head with this mathematical, and I'm not a very good mathematic.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So I stood on the on this other one, they wanted me to stand for deputy, which was fine. But we lost.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYeah. You tried again in 2017, and what do you think happened there?
SPEAKER_00I have no idea. I thought I was going to win, but maybe money, maybe I don't know.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziThere is a big problem of money that did come out. When you looked at those uh statements that nobody denied.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, you remember there was also a voice thing from Lamula saying they are waiting for the money because this NTZ thing is going to disturb if the money doesn't come so.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziWhat does that make of that ANC leadership that came out of that conference?
SPEAKER_00Well, since then money has played a big role in the ANC.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYou reckon even in 2022 money was central?
SPEAKER_00Oh, you remember there was money that was found in somebody's room, half a billion. On the morning of first morning of the conference.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziFirst day of the conference.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And also, Balun was dishing the money in the clinic. So money has played a role in the ANC.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziHe was dishing money proudly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziLike openly.
SPEAKER_00Openly, yeah. It wasn't like a secret.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziOpenly to be elected as the SG.
SPEAKER_00To be elected and for the president to be elected.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziBut the ANC rules are clearly, or are they not? Are they are they are they are they silent about the use of money? As I understand, the use of money is criminal in terms of conferences of the MC. Money was used. We all know.
SPEAKER_00We all know. We all saw it. At least in 22, we saw it. If you ask anyone who worked at the clinic at the time, they'll tell you. Even the media reported it, so it's not something I'm not revealing a secret. The media reported it at the time.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziWhat do you think it translates into this this leadership board conference?
SPEAKER_00Well, ANC money is playing a big role in the ANC lead in in choosing leadership. That's what I can say. Because it was in the media and we saw it.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziHow has that, therefore, in your view affected the quality of the ANC, its performance? Has that in any way, in your view, is does it contribute to the quality of the ANC and its performance in the rest of society?
SPEAKER_00Well, first of all, because I've never been bought, I don't know how you make decisions when you have when you were paid. In order to we. In order to be where you are. So I don't know how whether you make decisions independently or you think of the money you got, I don't know. So it's very difficult to say because it's an experience. I have no idea on.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziIn many ways, you are still serving with the people that distributed money in order to campaign in conferences. You have any view on the fact that you are still in the same leadership space with them? You have to you have to say SG, you have to say president. And yet you know this thing about them and money. What what does it make maybe of your own? How do you at least make sense of your presence still amongst them?
SPEAKER_00Well, do we abandon the ANC? Should we have abandoned the ANC in 2022? Is the question. I felt we couldn't abandon it. And that's why I'm there.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziBut is there a fight to push back against monetization of the ANC?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I hope. I hope when we not get into another era of ANC being bought. But I don't know.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziI thought you you did a comprehensive report about the choice, I think it was about counselors these days. Maybe for the memory of the audience and those that might not know that you were at some point given the task by the ANC to investigate a similar question, but in relation to how counselors were chosen. May I request you to just refresh our memory about your findings and ask about whether in this election of candidates towards the 2024, 2026 local government elections, is the are the systems tight enough to avoid those mistakes?
SPEAKER_00Well, we found different problems around the selection. Sometimes the branch meetings themselves were not conducted properly. For instance, they would come to a branch meeting and say no, there's no Quram. And then go and have a secret meeting somewhere and elect a counselor. Sometimes they would call somebody and say, Do you want to be a counselor? I remember one comrade in the Eastern Cape said they called me to say, Do you want to be a counselor? And she said, How can I be a counselor? I wouldn't even know what to do. And they said, How? So she said, I know, I'll rather not. I can't be here. So it was a combination of all sorts of things. Almost in every province there were problems. And in the report, we recommended that some of them should be withdrawn.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziBut most of them were not withdrawn. Was the use of money stealed?
SPEAKER_00In some instances, yes. In some instances, it was just wreaking the processes.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziAnd the processes as they are now, do you think they've taken note of the recommendations that would have come out of that? Not quite.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's still problems. Um I I wouldn't say now it's watertight. No. There are still problems. But there are improvements.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziI hope so. I went to Iran to bury um Ali Khamenei, the supreme leader of Iran, participated there. And everybody was, and when they hear I'm from Africa Junibee, Africa, they call it, I was, he's the ANC. And many, many diplomats that attended. Why do you think the ANC didn't send a delegation to bury the Supreme Leader of Iran?
SPEAKER_00I really don't know. I don't know why they didn't. I thought even if they don't, the government would send somebody. But I don't know why, maybe it was never explained.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziDo you think this is an important question that might serve in an NEC conversation?
SPEAKER_01Not sure.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziI'm not sure. I feel like you are doing to me your best training as a person that can conceal things. If indeed then uh we we we come to rather, let me say this off question of Iran opens me up to ANC's international solidarity performance and the performance of South Africa. The recent speck of demonstrations, some of which, in some instances, resulted in door-to-door campaigns to try by ordinary citizens to chase what they say are undocumented foreigners, has invited us a lot of criticism from significant leaders in the continent. My question is your own assessment, firstly, of this campaign about untocrumented foreign nationals. Do you think its intention is precisely this isolation we might face? Who do you think is behind it if that is the case? But number three, your assessment of South Africa's government's response now, both internally and to the pushback by the continent.
SPEAKER_00Well, first, let me start by where what they are complaining about. They are complaining that there's unemployment in South Africa and the jobs are being taken by foreigners. So let me ask you: do you think there'll be no unemployment now that they've chased the Africans?
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_00In fact, it will increase. I think they are complaining about a problem that exists, but the solution is wrong. And also they are backing at a wrong tree. You see, there is unemployment in South Africa because our economy is not doing well. It's the economy that deals with unemployment. Our economy is not doing well. We are still exporting things raw, we don't have sufficient resources, we're not creating enough entrepreneurs and so on. So we need to fix our economy. But chasing Africans, in fact, of late, we were even chasing those who have documents. I saw somewhere somebody said, No, I have documents. And then someone was saying, No, Abahambe, anyway. So, first of all, illegal immigrants must be sorted by government. It's illegal for civilians to be the ones that go around asking for documentation. The government must do its take its responsibility. It's the police, it's home affairs, immigration that have that responsibility. But of course, there's also a problem in our borders because some of them say they pay 500 lents and they are allowed in. So we need to sort those problems as well. But citizens should not be the ones that deal with that matter. And at the end of the day, my view is that we are going to be the losers. Because there's no country that can exist in isolation and develop in isolation. Doesn't matter how big it is, how rich it may be, but you still need to trade with people, you still need to interact with people. Let me give you something that people sometimes don't think about. Here in Hauden, we get water from the Lesotho Islands. Is that not interdependence? Even before I get to other things, just the water we we drink here from the Lesotho Highlands. If Lesotho stopped us getting that water, what would happen? And I'll use one more example. More than 70% of our tourists come from the continent. If Africans said now they don't come to South Africa as tourists, will unemployment decrease or increase?
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziIt will increase significantly.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziBecause tourism is one of our best performing sectors.
SPEAKER_00Because Africa is supporting us.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziSouth Africa.
SPEAKER_00More than 70% come from the continent.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziAnd they spend here?
SPEAKER_00They spend a lot of money. They come, some of them come on SAA, and they spend money even before they come on our airline. When they come, they stay in hotels, they don't stay with Kivenkin. They buy things when they go back, they have extra suitcases. They enjoy being in South Africa. Which is good because during apartheid they were not coming here. Voluntarily, they were volunteering not to come, a lot of them. So I think if we continue on that trajectory, South Africa will be the biggest loser.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYeah. Who might be behind behind this? It seems to me the movement is well well resourced.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, it is. Maybe it's those who want to recolonize Africa. Maybe they want to study, starting with. But also isolation of South Africa from Africa.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00This organizes not only South Africa but the whole continental integration issue. I mean, I was very sad, I must say, when I was watching our game against Mexico. No Africans supported us.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Can we blame them? But they will I hope they will not isolate us. And I hope we will not continue with what we're doing. Yes. People mustn't come, mustn't be illegal. Nobody is condoning illegality. But that's the responsibility of government to sort out.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziHow do you assess government's response to the marches and arresting the situation and also its response to what I think have been very strong statements from some of the heads of state in the continent?
SPEAKER_00To be honest, I've been in and out of South Africa, so I've not followed the South African news very closely. To me, I think there should be a discussion with them. We should not be hailing statements across. I think we should go sit down with them, discuss, and explain the situation. That it wasn't a government initiative, and it's not the majority of citizens. But people were reacting to a real problem of unemployment, but looking for backing at the wrong tree. Yeah.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziMaybe the final subject is the Malanga Commission, which has just turned a little bit over a year since the hearings have been going on. It's given a little bit of time until November. But when you sit and hear the stuff that is coming out of the state of the police services, the policing, and some of the very prominent comrades of the ANC, treasure of Northwest, some of the top, top, top generals that are embedded as it were with organized crime. How does it make you feel? And do you think we might be able, because of this commission, get out of that paralysis?
SPEAKER_00Well, I hope so. I think General Land kind of did well by exposing this because it would not have been stopped if he hadn't. But I hope we can act quite decisively against corruption and against everything that is we hear in the Machanga Commission. It's a very I don't watch it every day.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYou wouldn't say or would you say that part of what really did help the situation is Ramaposa's decision to constitute a commission. I mean, he had a choice to simply dismiss Kunu, replace him, and say uh not do a commission. Isn't this also one of the best decisions that ever happened? Was many people didn't want a commission because they thought commissions are often don't have any results that are useful.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it was okay, but I don't know whether it was the only solution. But it was important to investigate what Lanta had said. Yes. To to make sure we can deal with the issues that are coming out and who needs to be arrested, be arrested.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziAre you going to be able to talk to me in a non-concealing way? If the court rejects President Ramadan's agent application, are you able to tell me what you think the president must do? I mean, this has to do, you remember that question I asked of my celebration in the benches of parliament and your lone voice. Maybe because You didn't ask that question. I didn't, yes. But I mean, I did mention that there was this moment that my heart was filled with very. When Bush asked Congress to go and invade a foreign country. There's a woman, just I forget her name. She was called the Lone Voice who said, This decision is wrong. And she was only vindicated after 10 years that the intelligence was flawed, there were no weapons of mass destruction, da-da-da-da. You exercised a lot of bravery that day in parliament to defy a position where you were told to. I mean, the resolution was you must support the ascertained resolution, which is an ANC party line.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Well, we were given Judge Ngobo's report to read. The NC gave us Judge Ngobo's report to read. We read it. And the question in parliament was whether we agree with the recommendation. Yes. And I answered the question. I agreed with its recommendation. The recommendation did not say the president must resign or anything, or he's guilty. It said there are still questions to be answered.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYou think the president has to answer these questions?
SPEAKER_00Why not?
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziBut he's in court trying to stop the process.
SPEAKER_00Well, I suppose he's just exercising a right to go to court.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziWhen you did that, the ANC had said to you, you shouldn't, you should vote together as a block. And you were promised to be, as I I remember, that you will be taken to DC. Why was the ANC's instruction at that time something you felt?
SPEAKER_00It didn't agree with my conscience. One, even at the ANC, we were not all allowed to express our views. The meeting stopped before the list was finished of people who were supposed to speak. That's number one. So democratic centralism works when everybody has been able to express their views who had views. And then the majority decision is taken. Then you are supposed to follow democratic centralism. But you can't be forced to follow democratic centralism when you have not been given the chance to express your view for start. Secondly, there's nothing in the report that I disagreed with. In the Ngobo report. And then they say there are still questions that need to be answered. Now, how do I say no? There are no questions. And I could-I there's nothing I didn't I disagree with in the report, that's all.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziIf the courts reject his agent application and you were his best friend, what would you recommend that he must do?
SPEAKER_00I would recommend that he acts according to his conscience. What would that look like? I don't know what his conscience is conscience. He must say. And he must act according to that also. Okay.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziMy final uh request is to all the young women out there, particularly African young women, uh, on the occasion, I think both of 1976, which is 50 years this year, and 70 years of uh women's march, which is this important role played by women that must continue to be played by women uh in the affairs of the country. What is your message to all the young African women, in particular out there?
SPEAKER_00My message is the young women must participate in everything. They are not inferior to anyone. They mustn't allow anyone to look down upon them. They are they have the capacity, they must exercise it. They have their rights, they must exercise them. And they must fight for what they need. They mustn't allow the anyone to put them down. No. And that's a mother of four girls. Toki.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziFour brilliant girls. They are women now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they are women. They are young women.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziYeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziThank you so much, Ma.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziI appreciate your time. Hopefully, we'll catch you again. I think uh the next few weeks in the in South Africa are gonna need a lot of wise guidance. But uh thank you so much for creating time to speak to us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but to ask difficult questions.
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziReally? I mean, uh, you are a trained Mbogodo who led with Steve. Nabbing is difficult for you.
SPEAKER_00Have you switched off your camera?
Dr Mbuyiseni NdloziNo, I gotta gay, shake your hand.