Episode 41 – Lindiwe Zulu: uMkhonto weSizwe, Patriarchy, Governance & Small Business Realities

In conversation with Lindiwe Zulu on her experiences as a young South African, her journey into exile, her education in the Soviet Union, and her time at Solomon Mahlangu Freedom College.  The discussion also examines small business, entrepreneurship and the challenges facing township economies, before moving into broader questions about leadership, institutional processes, accountability and public service in South Africa.

Transcript

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Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 0:00

Okay, um I used to I used to be they call it naughty, but I don't think you would agree in the context of parliament that what I was was naughty.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

No.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 0:19

Yeah, I was a a very serious MP.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Look, you you understood the space you were at. Okay. And you knew how to use the space you were at. And you knew how to how to get us going on the other side.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 0:37

And there were many of you at the time. Oh yes, we did. 60 62% at the time.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

And with me, they said, um, when I became minister, they said I must stop what I was doing at the front because I'm a minister. Yes. Then I said, but I didn't struggle to be a minister.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 0:59

And uh so they wanted a certain decorum.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

They they thought our decorum hours was a little bit too robust, a little bit getting into it. Yeah, you you just sounded like us. We're getting into the mud and all that, but but we're not in the mud here. We are in politics here.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:17

Is this possible that Ufage eat too because you don't want me to say how is injured? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

I I didn't want to distract you. I swear, I just thought I looked at the mirror and I was like, no, I'm not going to distract him from the from my hair. Yeah, no, but my hair is also untidy, so yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:42

Let's go to to you as a youth. Uh in 1976, which this event of 76 turns 50 years this year, and there's many reflections across the country, but you are right in the generation of people that were 18 in 1976 and are politically conscious. But a different event made you go to exile as a youth. Um, and I'd I'd like us to start there about what in 1976 propelled you as a young woman uh into exile.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

I was already in Swaziland then a Swatin brought up by grandparents who had slugged it out in Johannesburg in their youth and their early 20s and early 30s. My grandmother was a domestic worker in Parktown. My grandfather used to work from factory to factory and lived in hostels. The ultimate hostel where we had to take him out when we came back from exile was Denver Hostel. My grandfather spent more than 60 years of his life living in a hostel. And we moved to Eswatini, Swaziland, then because my grandmother was a very committed woman to education. Nothing would beat that for her. To an extent that when my father passed away at the age of 11, and the lastborn at the age of four months, my grandparents carried all eight of us throughout. And at the center of everything for my grandmother in particular was education. So the impact of 76 lands into a family that had the discussions, not strong discussions, but the belonging that Otina Saba was prutted, it was called the place. Sifigela simply because that area had forced removals, and most people who lived in the area and in the rural area were moved to Emadaden today. So my grandmother was the kind of person who said, there are no schools. Secondly, will there be schools? Best thing is to move to Swaziland because Swaziland was a better option for her. Not a very good option for my grandfather. I don't think he was very happy with it, but my grandmother was a very strong matriarch. And because she had already shown to the family what education could do, she had made sure that my father went to school. My father went to St. Augustine's in Gwazugunatal in and my aunt uh went to school in uh Swaziland. And by the time that we moved uh to Swaziland, my aunt was in a boarding school. So my grandmother was very mass for education. To that effect that despite the fact that my father had passed away and we had never lived with my mother, my parents never married, we went to the best schools in Eswatin. And who paid for the school fees? My grandparents. So that background of the Zulu, first and foremost, of course, my grandfather was like Sama Zulu, and all the time that was something very important uh to him. He didn't really like us being in Swazland then, but he I think in the main he realized that it was a good thing because we are going to school, we have a different life, he comparison to the life uh of uh uh Nadal, say Nadali Pella, it was different. 76 comes, and then there's the influx of the 1976 generation. Yes. So that influx then pushes families who were more South African but had been in Swatini from the early 60s and all that. This gives a new impetus and a new thinking and a new blood into the liberation struggle. And then we have in our family, like other families, we have some of the people or the students who ran away living in our homes. So in my family, we had some of them staying quazul in our home. Now you can imagine the background of my grandparents sometimes talking about how life was in Johannesburg and all that. And then this huge influx that is very militant, very clear they want to make the change, very clear this is the time that the African National Congress, the Pan-African Congress, needs to rise to the occasion. Those are the people then who influenced me into even joining the African National Congress. But before I joined, I had been used in a way in underground work and I was completely not aware of it. Because a person in the name of Temba Numalu, who had left family had left South Africa many years and was living in South Africa, he was in the underground structure of the ANC, of Umkonto Oesizo in particular, and I had absolutely no clue. How did I know later that it means I'd been doing something? Was because we had a post box, P.O. Box 491, Manzini, Swaziland. And he had to receive telegrams from South Africa. And because we were the few black families that had the post box and all, I used the post box for his telegrams coming through. And he was my boy, Frank. Yeah. And so one. How old were you at the time? I think I was about 17, 18, somewhere there. And um my grandmother was not very happy with me and this temper. But it means my grandmother knew something that I didn't know about, about uh Timba in a way. Um, but it was many years later than I realized the danger I had either put myself or somebody else in the family when there were those letter bombs. And me, I was just innocent, uh, taking the telegrams, giving them uh to Temba, and that was it. So the impact of 76 started then, when we had um young people who were staying by uh our home in Gakosa. There's a place in Manzini called Garkosa. And then I started sort of like realizing the importance of uh uh an operative but still not fully understanding uh what it means. And then the police of uh Swaziland came to look for me in a place where I lived. By that time I was in a college, in a cooperative college, because I had completed my studies and uh I was I was doing uh cooperative studies and I was supposed to go uh to Italy or to Spain to further my studies and all that. Uh, but then because I had already started doing this and that, even then not very conscious of it. It's like simple asking me, take this, put it there, but you're not really yet conscious, fully aware of what it is. It's when then the police came looking for me that then I went to the ANC house, which used to be called White House, running, literally running. And they then took me in and then they asked me all the necessary questions, write your biography. You know, in the ANC or in MK, you used to write your biography every step of the way. So that the ANC knows who you are, where you come from, why you are here. And at that time, it was very difficult because you had people that were genuinely out to join either ANC or PAC to be members, but then you also had others that had been sent to get information. So then the ANC that time uh decided it's not safe for me to remain in Swatini anymore, in Swaziland anymore. And then I left. I left um through we were transported by a van in the middle of the night. It was raining, it was thundering, it was really scary for those who were not strong enough because I remember on the way when we had to get into the fields, the sugarcane fields in Stegie, there was one young man there who cried all the way. Because I think it was just very scary, and they kept on calling him cheeseboy, cheese boy. And then we crossed illegally, obviously, into a Mozambique. But of course, we were welcome in Mozambique. So the illegality was neither here nor there. It was known that caders of Umkondovesi's were caders of PAC, they go via uh this route. There's another story that will be told another time that's related to my brother, Dominic Vusizulu, who joined the PAC completely independent of each other. Yes. No discussion, no nothing. He left before me, and we didn't know where he was. But my grandmother, being a very active person, found out from Ubabum Kwana's PAC that I we've recruited your boy, we've recruited other boys, they have left, they're in Tanzania. So that's how I got into the ANC through Mozambique. From Mozambique, very interesting period because in Mozambique, Umam Flo, who was the matron, Ubamabida, who used to come to Madola, the camp that was uh bombed by the Afartheid regime years later, after we had left, after we were in uh Tanzania, the ANC used to say to us, South Africa, we'll need qualified people when freedom comes. So Ubab Mabita, Umam Flo, and some other leaders who some of them I don't remember very well, when they used to come to address us, they would encourage us to go to school. They would target particularly those that were young, like if you were 16, 17, 18, they were just very clear that it's good for you to go to Umkondoe Seizwe. However, South Africa will need doctors, nurses, engineers, and all that. But uh many did not even want to listen to that. And the reason why they did not want to listen to that was because why did they in the first place uh fight at home and be told it is possible to fight the regime physically, which means you must go and do your military training, then be infiltrated back into the country and carry out all the missions that everybody reads about today of Panimulukwane and all of them. So many did not want. As a result, Josie, let me tell you, there was a special song that was sung for us who were going to school. And so between that and your revolutionary spirit and your wanting to fight, and me in the back of my mind thinking, Yazi, my grandmother really wanted me to go to school. I disappointed her twice. I had children too quick, too close to each other, and all she wanted was me to go to school, and this is what I did. I had the children. And now is an opportunity for me to go to school. So why don't I just go to school? And then Ubabuma Bita, also coming from Anna Dali, he kind of like, and and and sort of like feeling, oh, uh, just going through that, and then thinking he might have an influence on me and be directive, I did. So, we were divided like that, get into the plane, go to Angola, or get into the plane, go into Tanzania. I got into the plane, went to Tanzania, Solomon Maslang Freedom College. But before I went to Solomon Maslang Freedom College, I stayed in Darasalam. And one day, bang, here's my brother in Darasam. Ah. In Darasam.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 16:33

After how many years you hadn't seen him?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Um, I hadn't seen my brother for about three or so years. Yeah. For about three years I hadn't seen my brother. And home didn't know where my brother was. Uh and of course, Ubabung Kwanazi had already informed my grandmother that no, I'm a warishiki, my brother is fine and all. There we meet, my brother. My brother is the first thing he says, what are you doing here? And I'm like, Okay, what are you doing here? His PAC, I'm ANC, but we never had a chance to continue any connection or any connectivity because then I was taken to Mazimbu. Um, because everyone that was going to school was processed in Mazimbu. And I was processed in Mazimbu. Most of us in Mazimbu were like, we're gonna get scholarship to London, we're gonna get scholarship to the US, maybe. I mean, those were places that South Africa in general knew of. South Africa did not necessarily relate that much to socialist countries. Your Soviet Union kind, your Bulgaria, your Hungary, your Poland, your all the China. Well, there weren't much of us that went to China. It was more the PAC. Most of us as students, we went to socialist countries, some be to Scandinavian countries. And so we all had to wait for scholarship. But also Mazimbu was a good place for those that had not completed their school because who would take you at university when you had not? And the sponsors wanted people who were going to go to the varsity and be able to finish. So Mazimbu was a center for processing and then for allocation of the scholarships. So I got the scholarship to go to Moscow because I wanted to do journalism. I had really been wishing I would be a journalist in my life. I'd been thinking about being a journalist when I was in high school at Mjingo Secondary School. I thought I'd want to be a journalist, and here was an opportunity for me to do just that.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 18:50

Yeah. And you went to study and can actually speak Russian.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Da, Yagavaru Paruski.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 19:04

So you could watch John Week in Russian.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

With absolute look, uh being a student of Russia for all the people, I speak for everyone who was a student in the Soviet Union. Nobody, none of them, whether the engineers, the doctors, the agriculturists, the anyone who studied there, it was all in Russian.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 19:30

Your medium of instruction. How did you learn Russian? I mean, uh, was it before you went? No. You took the scholarship and like you found a corn?

SPEAKER_00 19:43

You are given the scholarship, you don't know a word of the place you're going to. Don't they also write differently? Yeah, they do write. The alphabets are very different. And the the grammar is completely the grammar is really complicated. And it's it's it's not that easy. So everyone who who've been to either Moscow, Bulgaria, Hungary, or whatever, they had to learn in the language of the country. And I was in Moscow, I was in the Soviet Union, Russia today. So the first year you do like five hours of the language per day. It's the method the Russians used that made it look like it's very easy. They had a very good method. First and foremost, on your arrival, you're not having somebody walking with you around translating for you. You have one person who received the people who receive you at the airport, you are taken to the hotel, and that person explains in English if you are English-speaking. Because remember, there were also students that were French speaking. So they had French. Then there were students from Latin America who spoke Spanish. So the Russians were very good at that because they had all those people with all those languages. But it's just for basics that you are received and you are informed. Then you stay in the hotel on arrival, and then within a few days, you are allocated to your hostel where you're supposed to, your living quarters, if I call them. They still have the same, I've visited and the same living quarters are still there today. But what they also did was you would not share a room because we shared rooms, two people in each room. They would not put you with somebody that speaks your language.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 21:34

I see.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

The first person I lived with was from Panama. No word of English whatsoever, and me, no word of Spanish whatsoever. So in the room, we had to sort of like use our hands first and pick up things, and I want this and I want that. And then when we have to shower, you have to use your hands to say you go first or whatever the case might be. But in a way, that sort of like forces you to then be quick in learning the language. Even at um uh at university at uh itself is the system that they use. Because you know, imagine you have five hours of the language for a whole year. Five hours. You have five hours of the language, and then you've got three hours of your subjects in your language. For instance, as a journalist, um the the the introduction to journalism, the principles of journalism, the literature that I had to read, the history that I had to read, it's introduced to me in the language, English. The second year, there's not a word of English. You get into the um auditorium, the lecturer walks in there, rattles everything in Russian, you either you pick it up or you don't. What happens if you fail? If you fail, they put you in the next plane back to where you come from. It was a fool. We're saying this is Russia, you understand? This is the Soviet Union. And you survived. And I survived. And let me tell you, majority of women, I don't remember any one of us women being put in a plane and taken back home. I don't. The men were some men were, and some of them, sometimes it had very little to do with capacity at school, it had something to do with behavior. And you know, us coming from South Africa, the issue of violence and the issue of people also not being used to being so mixed with uh white people and all that. Um, so sometimes some male comrades would really uh not take it very well, and a few of them were taken back, but very few still, because I can tell you, at the time, the majority just were dying to finish and come back with your degree, whatever, whether it's a master's or whatever it was. The majority of us were like, this opportunity might not present itself again. And also, who wanted to go back to Mazimbu anyway? I mean, life wasn't easy in Mazimbu. We made it as easy as possible. The ANC managed it extremely well. Uh, we had very good uh uh principal. Like, I mean, one of the principals, when I arrived in Mazimbu, it was the time uh of um Taden Jobe who and Menjobe who had lived in Lusaka as teachers. So they went to Mazimbu to actually be the pioneers for Solomon Masango Freedom College. Uh there was the late Tilly who not passed away not so long ago. Then we also had um people from the Scandinavian countries who came as teachers a period of time and then they go back. And so, but then being adversity, like you're thinking, do I really want to go back to Africa without completing an degree? Yeah, and and and and fulfilling the purpose of why you are there because I wasn't there only because the ANC had sent me there, I was there because of how my grandmother viewed education.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 25:39

Yeah, but you did come back to silence the song you were singing for us earlier and actually went for military training. Can you just take me through your angola time with a specific focus of what it is like to be in the camps as a woman?

SPEAKER_00 26:10

I start from fulfilling what I might have not kept in the front of my mind, but at the back, when Dadema Bida and Meflow said to us, Go finish your studies. When you come back and you go to Umkonto Cizio for your training, you'll actually be better people. You'd even understand it better. And years later, I was to realize why some of the leadership of the ANC used to say being in Angola is like being in another university. And I actually experienced it, and I'll explain to you why I feel it was another university. When I decided I wanted to go to Angola, I had to go through the same process again. Write your biography, convince us why you want to go to Angola. I did that in uh at Solomon Matlangu Freedom College, our intelligence officers who would be able to process you and go back to your history and go back to everything and then send your details to Lusaka for you to be cleared to go to Angola. I was cleared together with quite a number. I think when we left um Tanzania, there were about 10 of us or so, including Umanda Shabalala, Umdanaga Shabalala, the Soweto uh supposedly Tycoon. And Umanda, I had known him also a little bit in uh Swaziland because he went to the same school where my brothers went, to St. Silesian, um primary and high school. So we were cleared, then we were flown from uh Tanzania to Lusaka. We stayed in Lusaka because in Lusaka, where we were, it was a trans transition house, and the likes uh of Joel Nechitenze would be the people that come to the house to give us the political education that's preparing us to go to Angola. Because the ANC had this belief that when you go to do your military training, yes, it is to help arm you for a military in a military way to teach you about all the guns that can be used when you come back, how to make the bomb, how to sketch out and reconnoit and find that you are given a mission. So that's the training. However, the ANC was very, very strong in no soldier must carry a gun without an understanding of why he or she is carrying that gun. Hence the political education that started in Lusaka in the transit, we call it transit camp. Then you go, you go to uh you arrive in Angola, you are flown again to Angola, you are processed again, same old way in Angola, but also you are processed in Angola much more vigorously simply because the Angolians need to have the comfort that the ANC and Umkondo We Sizwe is bringing people who are solely coming here to do the training and not coming here to spy for other things. Recall that I talk about spying simply because uh the struggle, the the South African defense force used to send South African, white South Africans to go and fight um in the front line, uh assist.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 30:00

So this is during Kuto Kornaval. Exactly. When you were in Angola.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

But I'm just tracing to you that when you get to Angola and the ANC still wants you to be grounded in the politics, firstly, the politics of the ANC, the approach of the ANC, the experience of the ANC, the leadership of the African National Congress in terms of the struggle, but also the appreciation of the underground structures. So you need to have that understanding. And you also need to have an understanding that you're not the only liberation uh uh people. You've also got PAC, their approach, why are they PAC? What that kind of history, it's sort of like you need to be grounded in that. Then when you arrive in Angola, you are processed, as I said earlier on, in a camp called Vienna. Vienna is still there today, and I visited that camp um probably like five, six years ago, and I just broke down so badly when I got there because you know, when you're there, you're not thinking of the dangers, you're not thinking of the possibilities of death, you're not thinking, you are driven by what brought you there. So you you sort of like almost shut your thinking about the possible dangers that might happen. And so after that, you are this is a transit camp. Again, we are processed, and then it is said you will go to camp 13, which is a longer term training, or you'll go to Bango, which is a short-term training. Why short-term training? Short-term training is analyzed on the basis of the need in the front line. So some comrades need not be away for too long because then it will be realized at home that they are not there. So they go short course, short course, very, very hectic course, and brought back, infiltrated back into the country. Or, like me, I was I was taken to the short-term training because I was already with a master's degree, and uh uh Comrade Chris Haney and others had thought it would be good for me to do my military training and then go back and work in Lusaka because I've done journalism, then I would go into the communications of the ANC. And as to whether I could go back to the front line or what, uh it I wasn't very sure. But I was dying to I could imagine myself again back in the front line. But the disadvantage I had was that I had grown up in Swaziland, so South Africa was like, yes, it is there, but you know, when you're military trained, it doesn't matter where you live. So I got there, I went to uh Bango, where I did my short course. But then at the time that I went, it was at the most difficult time for Umkondo. That was at the height of the support to Savimbi, for Savimbi by South Africa. That was the time when we were being attacked in many ambushes between uh Luanda and our camps. Because we needed to transport ammunition, equipment for training consistently, because we had to transport food and other logistics to the camp, there was no way we could bypass that. We had to use those roads from Luanda to the camps. 120K, 150K, depending on which camp you're talking about. So I arrived in Angola in 1987, and that was at the height of the attacks, and that's when we lost many, many comrades. I mean, one ambush that I recall very well was either 22 or 24 people we lost in one day. And so when I got to the camp, believe me, I cried again because I had been very, you know, I'm militant, I'm this and this. Suddenly, I am in the middle of nowhere. Suddenly, I cannot even see my hand when I put it here in the night. Suddenly, because it's so dark. It's so dark, and in the forest is so thick. There's the tallest trees that you can think of, but then there's the shrubs and everything. And the camp, obviously, has been cleared. But even the clearing cannot be complete clearing because it's a military camp. Suddenly I'm in this place, and suddenly I wake up in the morning, I'm told I must go down and get water. The water is almost a kilometer down. Down, going to get the water up is a struggle. But suddenly I'm sleeping in a tent all by myself. It's pitch dark, and I don't have a weapon. I've never used a weapon. I don't know how to use a weapon, but there are comrades that are on duty 24-7. So after a while, you then realize that no, um, you chose to come here. You get you you better just be yourself and and get it. You do your military training, but before you carry the gun, then see it takes you again through that political education. Guess what? Are you carrying in that period of time you are going for classes? You are carrying a stick the size of an AK. Simple stick. It's a thick stick. You tie a rope, two ends, and you carry it. You sleep with it, you walk with it, they're saying to you, by the time you carry the AK, this stick would have helped you to understand what it is to carry. And if by any chance you are found without that stick, you are punished. How does this shield? You either run or you crawl, or you wash the pots in the kitchen, something like that. But the punishment always had to do with something to be teaching you, helping you learn your environment, where you are, and so forth. So I did my military training. I I think I was in Bangor for about three months or so. And then as I thought I'm towards finishing, they said, no, no, I'm my name was Norley. No, no, we are now taking you to the main camp. That was Camp 13. And when I got to Camp 13, I joined Amacrousant, new people who were brand new coming in, like as if I hadn't been to Bang.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 37:42

Did you just call them croissants?

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Yeah, Macrand. Well, okay. No, uh, I think it's a Russian word for new recruits. Amakrousant. I see. So they knew. So I started from scratch. I didn't mind actually because by the time I came from Bango, I had been cooked very well there. And in Bango, we experienced almost uh Unita wanting to run over the camp. So which means they had been reconnecting, they'd been checking, uh, they they had some information about the camp and they wanted to attack the camp. The most scary part for me for the first time was moving from the main camp to an alternative base. It was hard work because firstly we had to um hide the equipment that was there, move almost lock stock and barrel to an alternative base, which is almost like maybe four or five kilometers away from the main base, even deeper in the forest, really, really deeper in the forest. I mean, we used to wake up in the morning to the run of wild pigs, which we used to have to go and shoot in order for us to be able to have some meat to eat and that kind of thing. And so that was the most difficult part for me. But uh also the other difficult part, by the way, for me was the fact that there were only two women in the camp with almost a hundred males. Two women, myself and Martha. But let me tell you, never did we or did I ever think twice that somebody was going to abuse me or somebody was going to do some unusual thing. Never. Not in my time when I was there. But again, by the time I went there, I was a little bit older. I was a settleboard. I was a little bit experienced because I had gone to school and all. And I was a tough cookie, I could take it anytime, and no man would ever just really come and think they can take advantage or anything of that sort. But by the way, also if anyone did that, the punishment was very heavy for for an MKKDA if you were found to have been abusive or anything of that sort. Those are other stories that really need to be told because others might come and tell you different with their experience. But I'm talking about myself with Marta, and there were only two of us.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 40:35

About hundred men. Yes. I mean, but it must be young and all of that, it's not an abuse for a person to be attracted to you. It's romantically.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Absolutely not.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 40:48

It's your absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

That's why I'm saying I had a bit of an advantage that I had been in other places and I Chola was it allowed in the camps. The commanders. The commanders. When you are a trainee, I see.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 41:07

It was not like a student-teacher relationship.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Yeah, it was not allowed. I broke it.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 41:12

You told me a commander.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

I broke it, and um he broke it actually. He must explain that he broke it, but after the while, it wasn't like I arrived and we broke it. We're still together today. Me and him are still together today.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 41:35

No, I would do you mind taking the story of how you fell in love with your teacher.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

So um in the day, we hardly see them, you know, like the commanders and all that. Um you only see your your your platoon commander, you only see your section commander and all that. But he was way above that because he had arrived in the camps many, many years before me. Oh gosh, he looked so good. Uh, in uniform. You mean he was handsome? Oh yes, yes. He was he's still very handsome, old as he might be. And and and I loved the way he walked with the pistol on the here, you know, there, and I was like, wow, okay, but it's not allowed. Somehow we found our way. That's a story for another day. Somehow we found our way.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 42:34

When you are in the camps, do you know each other's ages, the real ones?

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Like, because there's a lot of uh no, we don't, because uh first and foremost, you're not using your real names. Yeah, I didn't know his real name.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 42:48

I see.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Uh to me, it was just like a hawfi, that was his name. To him, I was nom. That was my name. But he had a bit of an advantage because he was already an officer and he was one of the intelligence officers. So those are the people that process um the information, the the I can't remember the what word officer, the names that they they they give them. But he he so he had that advantage. So he he knew more about me than I knew about him, because those are the people that read your biography, and then they have to keep on calling you and asking you questions to see whether you're still answering in the same way.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 43:30

Did you agree to become a couple during the camp training or after?

SPEAKER_00 43:37

No, we agreed way after.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 43:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

We agreed way, way after. And the thing is, we were also disrupted just at the beginning of whatever we were having. Um we were disrupted because then I had to be moved from Bango to the main camp. Okay. And I'm sure in his he would have wished. I could have stayed. But order was order. And wherever the order came from, there was just nothing he could do about it. I left.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 44:08

The reason I asked if you knew each other's age is because you you had told me that you got age differences that are sort of patriarchally different. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Yes, yes, yes.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 44:22

And and is it because you didn't know or you knew he's younger than you?

SPEAKER_00 44:29

No, I did not know at all.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 44:32

At what stage of the relationship did you find out he's younger than you?

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Only when we were in Lusaka, years later. Because I um I've I've always had this disadvantage, advantage in many instances. I've never looked my age. So every time I get to places, people just take me and put me somewhere else where I don't belong. And the kids fall for you.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 45:02

Yeah, they put me where they fall for them. Well, is that the kids younger people against correctly?

SPEAKER_00 45:12

I never looked my age. Yeah. I don't think even him in the beginning, he really thought I was three years older than him. I don't think so.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 45:22

Probably only. Some women of power prefer younger men.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

No, I think if you look at most of um the comrades that I I relate to who got married and whatever, most of them have got older comrades as their husbands and all that. So with him, then we participate.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 45:45

But there is a rumor though that you know uh powerful women politically I think it must be like some woman, some very important woman in the ANC has been uh talking about this thing of pen tens having to end.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Yeah, it's very unfortunate, in my view, that it has to be, because I think it must be, it must be, there must be facts about it. Let's put the women, all the women that we have in the African National Congress and look at them now and say, who's married to who's married? Uh many divorced, by the way, because this office of politics is not a really easy office. And in many instances, some men, not all men, some men feel uncomfortable when their partners or their wives become um uh ministers or whatever, they they find it very difficult to deal with, and then in many, in some instances it ends up with a divorce or something. But I I think that's it's got to be tested, you know, and Rose, to be honest with you.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 46:59

How many women are we talking about when you think of all the women that are But don't women, I mean, in that case, if that makes the romance easier, last longer, uh, an older man is uncomfortable with your power, maybe a younger man is.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

I think younger men is even I I think they would get they would get more annoyed, more disruptive. Yeah, they'd get the the I don't think younger men would I wouldn't. But but the thing is we are in a patriarchal society. Yes, you know, this is what's really like big because even if it's a younger man, he's a man for God's sake. He's got friends, he's got society that he goes to, and then when you and him come to a place, everybody take pays attention to you, and he'll kind of like feel am I at the background? Am I plus your bodyguards and all those people, they they look at the times it's intimidating for any man, whether young or old. I think it's very intimidating, but I think it's in the mind of a man. Um, it's never easy. I I can I can tell you that. It's not never easy for men, but I think they slowly getting used to to it because, especially in the ANC, because um in the my my husband always says to me, I'm from the ANC, for God's sake, you know, I was taught by the ANC not to be abusive to women. You you see that kind of a thing. So he believes in it. There are other men who are with him who've been taught the same way as him, but they don't behave the same way as he does.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 48:46

Let's come to you then in uh in a position of absolute authority, okay, not absolute, but of authority. Um and uh there is this moment of being in the national executive committee of the women's league. And the president is Mama Wien, and you're part of a group of women who resign en masse in her rejection. What was that about, and do you still think it was a correct position?

SPEAKER_00 49:27

It was very painful for me as an individual because I had really taken up to Umamwini, and I had appreciated history and what she had done, and I just couldn't imagine how she had managed to stay strong, young, beautiful, married to somebody who was 27 years in prison and still held to that name when she could have easily decided, I've had it, I'm done with it. I'm talking from a marriage point of view. I don't think she would have said, I've had it, I've made it, in as far as the commitment to the struggle because she stands firm as somebody to the she herself, never mind who she was married to, whatever, but she believed in the liberation of South Africa. So that moment was very painful uh for me as an interviewer, but I can tell you it must have been also painful for the other women. But remember, we are ANC first before we are women's league. So what comes from the ANC from a point of view of this person, I'm just generalizing, this person doesn't seem to be following what the ANC wants him or her to do. And the feeling about her was her independence of speaking her mind, sometimes even contradicting what the African of the ANC. That's where the whole thing was centered, basically. But it was also centered in looking at President uh Nelson Mandela and who he was, and what he was, and the need for us across the board, men and women, to really try and be aligned to what he projects, what the ANC itself projects. So the dramas of the time, personally, to be honest with you, I was not in the forefront of them because yes, I was in the National Executive Committee of the ANC, but I was among the youngest. Of the Women's League. Of the women's league, sorry, of the women's league. There were Masisulu, Matambo, uh. And you all designed. And so we, the younger ones, are actually looking at these uh adults and these stalwarts, and we have to follow the stalwarts.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 52:22

Lindy, but you just said, um, and I'm sorry to disrupt, yeah. Uh looking at Madiba, what he's projecting, da-da-da-da. So we are talking about a time when Mandela is the president of the NC. Yes. And Mama Will is the president of the league.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

President of the Women's League. And there's terrible disagreements. We don't see it in those disagreements.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 52:43

And at the time they are still husband and wife.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

They're still husband and wife, but there's political disagreements.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 52:51

So in a way, this was taking the side of the father.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

Well, no, look, look, very much so. Because he's taking the side of the father because he's the president of the African National Congress. But we're not looking at it from that point of view.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 53:10

We are looking at the politics. We're looking at the politics. What policies did mama get so wrong that there had to be this drama, drama, or dramatic resignation?

SPEAKER_00 53:23

It's it's a it's a long road from as far as 1991, 92, 93, uh, even whether Mam Wini should be the president of the Women's League or not. The dramas behind the Durban conference where there were those who came and said Mam Winnie is not going to be the president of the Women's League, and there are those who are saying Mom Winnie has to be the president of the women's league. It's the capacity, the strength, the fight that Mom Wini had. When she didn't agree, she didn't lie on the floor and say, okay, fine, I agree with what you say. She fought throughout. It was just hair fighting, which also made some of the women now feel like I, inga chisagayas Lulele, ngasa, Agasa Rizini in the way that the African National Congress is supposed to. You toe the line. She was no longer, she wasn't towing, not no longer, she wasn't towing the line on certain approaches and certain policy issues. She wasn't agreeing. Um, I mean, you know, Mamwini was affected by the by the apartheid regime and the enemy. They abused her to beyond imagination. So for her, even the mere fact that we're gonna be sitting around the table and having the conversations and compromising on some of the things was not acceptable to her. I see. But uh I'll slowly and I was a spokesperson.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 55:03

I remember. I mean, I'm not I don't remember, I know. Yeah, I was a spokesperson. But what is the what is the the point in relation to the ANC and the women's league? When you look at the women's league today, um the president of the women's league faced challenges.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 55:30

She was the SG at the time.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

Yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 55:34

Um and again, not quite similar, but she had to be put down.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

No, don't say put down.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 55:47

Okay, yes, with the military woman, I couldn't say that.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

She had to be removed.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 55:54

She had to be removed.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

No, I'm using the English because putting down is the one. Agreed, agreed.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 55:59

Agreed, agreed. She had to step aside, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

Yeah. No, she she just had to leave completely and utterly because look, uh the women's league also could have stood up and said we are refusing um our president uh to be told to resign and all that. But they decided the women's league had their meeting and they decided this is the route they have to take because they put all the facts on the table. And I think they considered the impact thereof both on the African National Congress but also uh in performance in the department itself.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 56:38

Yeah. But in 1997, the support for her candidacy against Jacob Zuma at the conference in Mafia King, I think. What was the women's league's position if Mama Weenie wanted to be available? I mean there was some drama there. Why why wasn't there a concerted effort? She wasn't trying to be the president, she was trying to be the deputy president. Something no unity that's never happened before.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Yeah, but there was no unity with the women. Let's let's just start from there. Because even if you look at fast track, fast forward to Osis Ngosazazan and Comrade Ngosazan and Lamini Zuma, if there had been the unity, the power that women had in the going and voting, she would probably have made it. So go back to Mamwini Matigizela Mandela, all the other controversies that were used, abused in some instances. There was no unity there and agreement that all of us as women, because imagine if all of us women had just gone there and said we're gonna vote for her as uh the president.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 58:03

Do you think her controversies, and and maybe you'll come back to the fact of these are conscious political activists with uh more elaborate records, some of them, as you put, than you, but most of them would have been cut their teeth in political schools in the struggle in the front lines, da-da-da. Patriarchy. What about the controversies that were surrounding Mama in comparison? Patriarchy. What just wanna do this comparison?

SPEAKER_00 58:44

Yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 58:44

How come the controversies surrounding President Zuma in 2007 don't drown him, but they drowned Mama Weeney in 1997?

SPEAKER_00 58:56

Patriarchy never left the African National Congress, never lose sight of that. Patriarchy and the belief that women would not be capable to be in those positions. ANC males belong to our society. ANC members with all the political education that you can think of and all, they still remain manned. You can't take that away. However, if you look at the policies that we have been able to push as an organization, you can see that there's been a journey that has been traveled even by men to accept the role of women, both in the ANC, but also women in leadership positions across the board.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 59:53

So it's more patriarchy than scandals, that's whole thinking.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

Yes, it's more patriarchy, it's more than not feeling very comfortable if the woman is going to really, really have the capacity, the strength, the wisdom, and all that as it is thought men have. I can take you back to Angola just for a second. There is nothing that male comrades did in the camp that I couldn't do. There is nothing that Nosiv Wema Pisa Nagula, Ayanda Lolo, all the women that you can think of in MK that they could not do simply because they were women. And the conditions were much more difficult for women because we have our own cycles, menstrual cycles, and that cycle, but we were strong enough to say we shall finish our military training. But ask me, how many women ever became section commander, platoon commander, camp commander, regional commander? Hardly any. Before I got to Angola and after I got to Angola. There was a short period where one male decided he was going to appoint a regional manager, he was going to appoint a logistics um and a logistics uh commander. It didn't last even a month because there was an uproar. How do you do that? Why did you do that? So those women who had been elevated at that point had to be removed from their positions. Fast forward that to a free, democratic, and non-racial South Africa. The struggle started long before then. The struggle even started at a time when the ANC did not accept women as members of the African National Congress. So trace that way down to the 1956, and you're seeing the 1956, and I was watching a documentary where Meruth was saying when they went as women to Ndatesi Sulu and others to tell them we are mobilizing 20,000 women, um uh women to go to the union building, and it is said he was saying, these women are mad. You understand? So people might take that very lightly to say these women are mad. That's entrenched where it is clearly believed, no, these women can't make it. But it traces back to the kings and the queens and whatever. Hardly do we talk about the queens who led battles, whether it's Nangola and whether it's but that's the journey that we have had to travel. So in today's world, as you talk about how Mama Wini could not, as you talk about how Kosa Zanalaminu, the lingering of patriarchy, the lingering of believing that women can make it, even when they've proven it that they are capable, still lingers with us. That's why, in my view, I feel like you know what? Celebrating the women of 1956, it's a good thing. They led, but that was in the liberation struggle, in the removing of upper state. What about today? Can we look at the women of uh 56, 76, 86, 96, 2006, and so forth? Can we look at those, the generation from generation, who among the women stood up like Mamuini, but were they able to box it to a point of being where we believe women should be? It is still a struggle, but it must end at some point.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:04:01

Yeah, 112 for whatever many years the ANC has been around.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

Yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:04:07

It's over a century, and um this question is is is haunting them. You you you headed an interesting department in government, and I did say when uh this moment of presiding over a ministry came, new ministry, uh when it was established under President Zuma. Small businesses. Um it's over ten years since that department has been around. And one of the key problems that is highlighted by uh organizations like Dodoa, March and March, and quite frankly, many others as well, is the idea or the phenomena of tax shops in the township and rural areas. How did you, when this department was founded, were the tax shops the center or one of the most important aspects of small businesses? And if so, what was the plan? Uh, because I know already at the time the cry about being overcompeted or by Pakistanis, Somalis, as well as Tanzanians is already there when you start this department. What was the vision? What was this department meant to do with puzzleshops? And having seen what happened this year, what is an honest assessment about whatever the objective was with puzzle shops?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:57

NAFCOC was the organization. That pushed for the establishment of your small and medium enterprises. And that had to fit in with economic transformation. It needed to fit in with the bigger picture, not just the smaller picture. It had to do with the feeling that South Africa's economy is so monopolized that it is not enabling for your small and medium enterprises across the board. And therefore, the issue of spaza shops and was but one element of the bigger picture of your small and medium enterprises and cooperatives, by the way. So the picture was trade and industry is good enough, but not good enough to get your small and medium enterprises from a policy point of view, from a funding point of view, from an infrastructure support point of view, from even assisting your small and medium enterprises to understand the economy of South Africa and how they can fit in there, especially in an economy that is so monopolized. That was the purpose of like we need this department, one, to firstly focus on the policy issues. What does small and medium enterprises mean? What regulations, what legislation has to be around them? Take what trade and industry has done, create a department that was going to focus, but also create agency that was going to be able to support them through CIFA and CEDA. That was supposed to also put together CEDA and CIFA into one so that people don't say, I've got a project. My business plan. So CEDA would be able to help you with that, and CIFA would then be able to suit to the financial side of it. There's puzzle shops in particular, because you're asking in the context of what's happening today, we got in there as in how do we create conducive environment for our own to be the ones that run these enterprises that runs the spaza shops. I mean, we were dealing with even how do we get the people in Johannesburg, in the city center, the men and women who sell tomatoes, vegetables, and all that, how do we get them to be supported by even having infrastructure? Because infrastructure is not there. That was the original. But when it comes to the spaza shops, it was about finding a way of how to register your spaza shops so that you know where they are, you know who they are. And at that time, I came at a time when there was beginning to be the quarrels of our own complaining about your Pakistani in Soweto opening every spaza shop in every corner. And I used to say, my goodness, but it is our own also who are giving them the spaces, our own who are opening their garages to get them to work. And I was like, can't we get ourselves as a department of small business development to engage with the Pakistani, the Somalis, and just to say to them, the legal ones, by the way, because you know sometimes there's that loss of the fact that we were very clear about the fact that if we have to engage with them, we cannot engage with illegal, but there's illegal that are almost everywhere. I even went to an extent of meeting with some of the leaders, Pakistani, Somali, the ones that were successful. We met with them, we said to them, can you share with us? Can you share with our people how you are making profits when our own who are giving you the garage to rent didn't need to be giving you the garage to rent? They should be the ones that are running this. And you know, there's always the talk about, oh, you know, these people are always selling um things that are illegal, they're not, it's not all the time. I also realized at the time that these people are very united. When one South African goes to a wholesale to go and buy only for himself or herself, those guys have got trucks. They go and they negotiate on the prices and everything. The truck comes and they deliver, whereas ours is stuck on the highway because the van that they're even driving is not um a van. That might be um reducing it to simplicity, in my view, as I'm saying it, but however, it is a fact. They organize themselves, they connect to each other, they protect each other, they uh go and negotiate in buying in bulk and all that, and then they displace our own. And our own, while I fully agree, we cannot have people who are illegal in South Africa. We cannot have people that engage in illegal activities, which also includes what's being sold in the shops. But if we were to look at figures, if you were to ask South Africans themselves, most of the things that they buy from those shops, from candles to matches to paraffin to all those things, do they find those things to be to be not the matches that can light? They'll tell you it's the matches that will light. So the department was meant more to look at transformation. The department was not meant to work in isolation. The department had to look at who else must be in the picture. The department had to speak to local economic development. And I realized that your local economic development that is supposed to be managed by local government is almost at zero. I realize that the economic development, which is supposed to be at provincial level, the focus is more on the bigger than it is on the focus on your small and medium enterprises and the informal businesses. Because look at this. If you go to Kenya or you go to any other country, countries that have been to in the African continent, my goodness. Trade is teeming at marketplace, at still place. If you go to the DRC to go to Kinshasa, women are carrying eggs and bread, and they stop here, they make the sandwich for you, you buy the sandwich, you go and eat. Can you do this here? Can any woman pass here carrying the bread and the eggs, and you can go out and think you're gonna buy from them? They're not. You have to go to those, I don't want to name them, they might think I'm I'm against them, whatever. The bottom line is that a lot of people would not necessarily need to go and be looking for jobs if we created that conducive environment for them to function, to operate. Most in most African countries, people don't depend on government jobs. In many instances, they don't even depend on private sector jobs. People go out and hustle, but the environment is created for them to do that. Unfortunately, from the South African side, the economy isn't monopolized.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:14:17

Isn't what you've just described for small operators precisely what chokes them, this demand for regulation isn't the informality, the capacity that I don't have to do application, uh rules, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. That I can operate because I'm operating a very, very small business. What you're describing in Kinshasa, maybe uh in other parts of the world, certainly New Delhi and all of those places. Everywhere. There isn't over-regulation of the small businesses. But the demand, as you, as you, as you are putting it here, is that now we're hearing people saying there has to be overregulation, who are demanding over that people must be registered. Isn't this the nature of the informal businesses that I can be able, as you put it, to hustle?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:25

The registration is necessary even if you are hustling. It is, it is simple.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:15:31

I mean, if now I lose my job, uh Mumling, and I go buy 36 eggs, I stand by the road. Well, in a taxi rank, I'm engaged in business. Yeah. And then the 36 eggs develop into two crates. They develop into eight crates, they develop into ten crates. I go to my my garage. That's more than informal. That's more than informal. Remember the definition of informality in this case is precisely that it is not registered.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:07

But remember that we're talking about, we're talking about spaza shops that are operated in township or in some places, and they are in conflict. The conflict is between the foreign nationals, the South Africans, and there's there's, I mean, at the time there I started also, Soweto was like really burning when people were going out and burning.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:16:32

So what was the solution to this? Is it maybe they are there? Because the genuine question, the genuine ping, if we're being honest, is the fight is not that they are registered or not. The fight is that they are swallowing local small, medium enterprise operators.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:55

But have the operators really asked themselves the real question: is it possible? Remember, I said I was even asking, can't we get them to work with each other? The legal ones? Because remember, there's lots of people here in South Africa who really are legal. They are not illegal and they are operating legally in Soweto with their spaza shops and all that. They need protection because they are legal, they are operating, but they also need to share with the South Africans how do they make it? Why is it that our own do not see that opportunity which these ones see? You know, in Bloom Fontain next to my husband's brother, the house has got a garage. The person who's operating there, I've asked them, the family, how come you're not the ones who are operating? You've got this person from wherever is operating here, and he's even made the fence and everything. Muchways a challenge, obviously. We are in Zimali. Nina, why how come Nina Ninga was preferred as nigga is eh? See, right now s nigga.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:18:15

Some people are calling for a complete ban of foreign operators of spaza shops, that that space of business, and suddenly they think this might be the solution. You ban foreign nationals from operating spaza shops, saloons, and all that sort of small business space, including uh street hawking and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:46

In the South African context, I I tell you it's going to be very difficult. In the South African context, why do I say so? There's many foreign nationals who are here who are legal. You you're gonna do what? You're gonna tell them no, you can't work for your family. They are legal and they have the capacity to do what they do. So you're gonna tell them you can't work, you can't do this. So whose burden are their children gonna be when all is said and done? The issue here for us, it should be illegal people doing illegal activities, including buying products that are not supposed to be on the shelves. Because the registration, by the way, it also helps you as the person who is governing. When you go to the spaza shops, as they've been raiding right now, which I think they should do all the time. They shouldn't do it simply because there is a problem. It must be yeah, it must be a consistent thing because when you have products that are not right products and children buy the products, and then the next thing the children are dead and all that. It's it's not a very good thing, but it's the manner in which they do it, it's the approach on how they do it. There mustn't be violence, there mustn't be intimidation, there mustn't be like making people feel like they're not human beings, especially the people who are legal in our country and they are they are acting, they are doing things legally. So, this issue of saying we can give to certain people the job, maybe it will work, I don't know. But in the South African context, it's very difficult because if you go to Zimbabwe, for instance, you'd find that there's far less foreign nationals in Zimbabwe than there are foreign nationals in South Africa. If you go to Budwana, if you go to Swatini, okay, Swatini, I saw that a lot of the Pakistanis now are almost everywhere. But the bottom line is that I believe when we think about what to do, we must look at the broader picture of the growth of our economy, the empowering of our people to be able to have your salons, have this and that. How do we do it in such a way that we make it easy? Because again, we mustn't forget that the majority of black people never had the opportunities they're having now of being able to own. The foreign nationals, many of them who are here, some of them started working in their parents' shops and market when they were small. So automatically, this thing is in them. But it doesn't remove what I'm saying. No illegal people must operate in South Africa. That's the bottom line.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:21:37

Okay. My final set uh of questions relate to I was in parliament the same time, and we used to call you the Zuma's cheerleader.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:53

Yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:21:53

I know, one of the fiercest uh supporters, uh defenders, almost going beyond in my observation beyond the party line, yeah. And next to uh Mamba Tabi, and um and when when one thinks of that and thinks of where you are today and where Mr. Zuma is, one wonders is she about to join him? Don't you suffer this suspicion in the ANC?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:40

I've suffered it beyond is she going to join him? It was automatic to some minds of some comrades. It was automatic, particularly because of what you just said about we were the cheerleaders, we were the frontliners, we were the defenders, and all that. So it becomes automatic for some comrades to ask themselves the question that being the case and what uh uh Uwabuzuma has done, how possible is that these cheerleaders, these front runners, these protectors can still be sitting in the National Executive Committee and not supporting him from within from within. I have suffered that and I don't think I'm alone. But it didn't bother me not an inch because I said to myself the people who know me, who know those of us who were in the forefront, if they remembered they could go back to when Mandela was president, when Tabumbege was present, when Mutlante was present, when Zuma was president. Each one of them, there was one issue or the other that might have made people feel why what why is Tabumbege doing this, why is this? But we stood by them throughout. The difference was that with present Zuma's issues, they were very dramatic, quite frankly. They were more than just, oh, we're going to conference, who are we going to elect, whatever. They were very dramatic because now it was issues of governance, good governance for that matter. It was issues of us, of course, standing on the line. We have to protect our leader, our leader is right because we believe our leader is right. So when those issues were like, no, these ones are just sitting here, they probably are connecting to him and telling him what's being discussed here. Personally, I was never worried about it. Because I knew that my reputation in the African National Congress will stand itself. One, for believing in the African National Congress, two, for believing in the leadership of the ANC, maybe sometimes overdoing it in the believing and sometimes not taking a step back and say, okay, me as a person, can I just really sit back and think about it? And also, comrades know that in the National Executive Committee or any other places, some of us speak our minds. They know that I would not agree to certain things and I would voice it at the right place, at the right structure. So I wasn't worried about it and to a point that even if I would have wanted, for instance, to say, maybe I want to have a conversation with him and just ask him what actually is going on.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:26:13

You haven't?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:14

No.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:26:15

Didn't he try to recruit you?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:17

No. Why do you and you know why? It is because he knows who I am. He knows my belief and my reputation and what I stand for.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:26:28

But what do you make of the MKP project?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:32

It's a very unfortunate. It was very unfortunate for me, and especially having seen uh President Zuma and having traversed with him, having engaged with him, having loved his commitment and the things that he did as a leader of the African National Congress. Just the things that he can talk about. He did, whether it was operations in Swaziland, Mozambique, and all. And I had ample time to sit and listen to him when we traveled, when I was his advisor, traveling to Jamaica, traveling to the UN, traveling to wherever, and him giving me responsibilities. He gave me very serious responsibilities, which could have not been questioned by anybody, because anybody who would have asked they would have known. But he has given her that responsibility to be part of the delegation that is doing the facilitation in Zimbabwe. He didn't do it because he was doing me a favor. He did it because he knew my track record spoke for itself, and he knew I was going to do the job, and he knew he paired me with people who were comfortable with me. He knew that those are people who can rely on me. That I can also rely on them. So this whole thing still remains a soul in me because to be honest with me, I would have never ever thought we would be where we are today, where the ANC is now having to face Umkonto Wesizwe on the streets campaigning completely like that. And yet when you look at the people who are in Umkondo Wesizwe, those ANC caders, those are caders who grew within the African National Congress. So he never called me to say.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:29:26

You never felt the obligation to make the call and say, you can't do this to the ANC.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:32

I was upset personally, but you know, some people are our elders. Some of them, to approach them is easy, but it must not be understood in the current context. Because you see, approaching him also, and then you are in the National Executive Committee, and then comrades are going to be thinking, oh, she's having a conversation with him, even though that wasn't worrying me. It was just my deep, deep personal disappointment at how things played themselves out. Quite frankly, what was painful was that maybe some things were happening that some of us were not aware of. Because now I'm not the kind of person who belongs to, you know, these little factions. I never operated on the basis of factions in the African East.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:30:27

Doesn't the organization suffer from a certain insistence on protecting a position that sometimes the line is wrong.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:48

It does.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:30:49

And and I'll make an example about two uh opposite but related matters. The NC is fighting again a similar episode of Nganda in the form of pala. Something happens in the president's private hall. The whole organization is dragged in to take a position on something that had nothing to do with politics. The upgrades uh at Ngandla had nothing to do with ANC positions.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:28

They did, unfortunately, because there was money that was spent, government money that was spent.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:31:34

Yeah, but I'm saying in terms of ANC policy, it you you wouldn't wake up and say it is ANC policy uh to corruptly spend money on a president. No, no, absolutely. Yes. No, no, no, absolutely not. So when it comes to positions that get taken, again you are caught in a similar position. You would have had to be in parliament again. And true to yourself. Being in the forefront. Be in the forefront and say uh there's nothing to impeach or to inquire and investigate, which is um in relation to uh to pala, isn't, and I don't want you to get into the two issues. I'm making an example about the conduct of a leader putting an entire organization, an entire project, a political struggle that is supposed to be about the people, putting it in this difficult corner because of a personal conduct. And you were forced, like you were doing, opposite us there, uh, to defend, and it turns out it was a wrong approach, it was a wrong decision. Doesn't that particular approach to politics tear the movement apart?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:52

It obviously does, because even in the face of uh Gandla, for instance, you'd have comrades who are saying, no, but we don't agree with the approach that we are taking. Same would probably apply to the current. There'll be those who are saying, we don't agree with the fact that now the entire organization must be pulled into this. And obviously the organization suffers. Its image, it's people lose faith in it, people believe we're just out there to protect each other. And now, especially with everything that is going on, there's more of a feeling like you ANC leaders are just there to defend each other. But having said that, there are due processes also, because I mean, if you look at the Pala Pala one, you would see that nobody just stood up and said we're just gonna defend, we're just gonna. We said there are certain processes that need to be taken. We didn't shut it down. We didn't go to parliament and say we don't want any investigation, we don't want any um standing committee to deal with it. We are saying that must be done. However, that it has a dent, that it has a negative impact on the African National Congress. I can't sit here and say absolutely it doesn't.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:34:27

They say it might affect how people vote. I mean, the polls are saying, people are saying, but this palapala question portrays the president in bad light. Uh and people, as a result, distrust the NC.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:49

It does portray him in a bad light because everyone is asking, why was that money there?

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:34:55

Why was you know why it was in the couch?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:57

I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know why.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:35:03

Uh, but I be So it wasn't discussed in the NEC for him to say what are foreign documents.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:12

It was explained.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:35:13

So didn't he he say in the NEC this is the money? Uh I got it, and this is the reason. I don't know if I know it's the same. Did he say why he put it in the couch? But did he put it in the couch? Oh, he didn't. Well, I'm asking, I mean, that's the claim.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:30

No, but in the NEC, didn't he say frankly I I find it a little bit weird. I can't imagine a whole president taking money and stuffing them under the couch. And and a person who actually has the money for himself. My personal view is that something somewhere went wrong.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:35:49

Is it the workers that put it in the couch?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:52

Something somewhere went wrong by the people who are managing there. Something somewhere went wrong, which was very unfortunate. But the bottom line is that we are in due processes because we are not defending. We cannot defend the indefensible. And everything must be tested through the processes that have been put through, whether it's in parliament. Um, and and he too, as a citizen, he's done what he thinks is right for him in as far as defending himself and where the money comes from. The good thing about South Africa is that we have institutions that will expose you. Like it, you don't like it. It doesn't matter who you are, he is the president, and the institutions are not defending him and saying simply because he's uh a first citizen, simply because he's a president, he's not gonna. He has to exercise his right to and see how far he can be able to take that right. And I mean if the institutions find that um something drastic needs to be done, I don't think the ANC is gonna stand against those institutions and say, no, he's our president and therefore you can't do anything about it.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:37:05

My last question is is related to to this and it's about Madlanga Commission. Why would you accept a suspension on full pay, full security detail, full security protocols of Senzompoon? I hear that there's a process, he could have been reappointed. Why suspend a cabinet member on full pay and it's been over a year? He's doing nothing. Why is Densi accepting that? Surely this there's a problem there. You you are not saying that the chap is guilty or not, but and isn't this like a blatant disregard of taxpayers' money?

SPEAKER_00 1:38:17

No, it is not blatant disregard for taxpayers' money because the due processes are all open for everybody to see. However, having said that, it still remains the prerogative of the president to decide on when is he comfortable with all the evidence that stands in front of him, if it is evidence enough that says to him, legally and otherwise, you cannot keep the minister in office. It is in the prerogative of the president to do so.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:39:00

But I'm sure when What's the prerogative of the of the party? Isn't it to demand a certain ethical conduct when it comes to public funds?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:13

Once and yes, it is, absolutely.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:39:16

Is this a correct use of public funds?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:20

Well, it's hard to say when the due process is still going on because when all is said and done, where is has the minister been found guilty by whom and where, when the process is still ongoing? He still has the right, by the way, to still go and answer.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:39:42

Does he have the right to sit at home with full bodyguards and a full salary?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:46

It's very unfortunate. He was appointed and he didn't bring this upon himself to say I'm going to be removed and be replaced until such time that the president feels the comfort that I have everything in front of me, legally and otherwise, that enables me. But of course, I cannot deny the fact that in the public eye, many people are completely and utterly unhappy with it.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:40:15

But at the same time, we're not going to Are they right to anything? Is it is it okay, Gotomam? Is it okay? I mean, I'm I'm not contesting the facts. I'm contesting how do you put cabinet? The chap could have been in the backbench. He's a full member of parliament. That would have cost government less. He's got a police minister has two cars, maybe four bodyguards following him a day. They're all paid, he's paid. You already have a big cabinet.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:57

Unfortunately, it's the law the way it goes, because he also has good rights. We've got to be sure that when we've got to be sure that when he goes and he's put on the side, he doesn't come back with challenges that are going to be an egg on the face of the president either.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:41:14

Okay. I'm not winning this one. No, you because the reason I started with Ngandra is because if we were sitting in 2024 having this debate about Ngandra, you would have remembered our positions. Yes. Isn't there something to learn in the defense of either the president's actions or party positions? At this stage of so many problems, the organizations have had. How come the reasoning doesn't say you have a prerogative, but this is the right thing to do? Prerogatives are not in and on themselves always.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:01

Nobody wants to leave a place carrying something that will not enable them to have a livelihood and it's not been proven, quite frankly, that you messed up and straight you messed up in one, two, three, four, five. The legal processes for the one, two, three, four, five is the following. Who I don't think Sanzo would like to just go away like as if uh he doesn't have a future. Where he sits, I don't know. I'm just thinking. He wants his name either to be cleared or the back benches. Yeah. Why must he clear it with the entire budget of a cabinet minister? No, he he can't clear it at the because you see, he can be a backbencher, but he still has this heavy thing sitting on him. But at the moment he's not even in the backbench, he's at home. Yeah, because the because why is he there? Because the president has not fired him, has told him go home while I am busy.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:43:05

At least you excuse me, he would have been in parliament. At least he would have, he still has an opportunity to go to Madanga and clear his name. Nothing is stopping him. In the Gishoti, why do that with an entire you you were a minister?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:21

But the thing is also you can't set a precedence where you just easily say, oh, you've done one, two, three, four, five. We are not taken through due processes and all, and then you just go home. There's due processes. There's a constitution in the Republic of South Africa, there's institutions.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:43:39

Which clause in the constitution approves of a cabinet member being suspended on full pay with benefits and uh it's the rights of an individual. Cabinet minister, ma.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:54

Yes, yes. He what is a cabinet minister? Cabinet minister is pogo in or cabinet minister officer like everybody else. And the man is probably sitting there and saying, if I have to go, it must be clear that I'm gone on the following.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:44:13

If you were the minister, would you have would you have accepted to stay or would you have acted differently?

SPEAKER_00 1:44:23

It would have depended on how the whole process started. Because if I feel I'm being wronged, I would stay. Until the relevant institution says to me, Ujonji Mali, Utate Logu, Wenza Logu, they must put it here for me because when all is said and done, I still have a life to live. I don't want to cling into being in government only. But for me to live with my name not cleared, I would find that very difficult. Because it has to be like this. It's either your name is cleared or your name is sunk with facts and due process, which, by the way, the legislation, the regulation, and everything of South Africa allows. Because if this that wasn't allowed, I can guarantee you it would have been decided a long time ago that it's due process, it pelile, when you did something wrong, one, two, three, four, five, how would you defend yourself when there is proof on the table that won't, basically?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:37

There's a due process. It is unfortunate. It is a fact that there's money that's being spent in paying a salary of somebody that's there. But we cannot also set precedences where anybody can do anything, anyhow they want on people's lives. I don't think it is correct. Let the due process finalize everything. The power, obviously, still sits within the president, sits with the president. Probably what he's getting is probably something that's making him feel, do I take, do I remove him? And if I remove him, what if this is ultimately his there's nothing that was wrong that he did? What am I gonna do? It's very unfortunate, I must say it. We don't need such instances, but I think we are a democracy of 32 years. I think for me, when I look at the Malanga Commission and I'm like, I'm beyond that now. I'm like, what is to be done so that all these dramas that we see there do not repeat themselves. Are we learning? And for me, the lessons on the Majanga, believe me, Njosi, is beyond the African National Congress. What is being exposed there might be the Netflix, maybe. But for me, I'm not looking at it at that point. I'm saying to the people of South Africa, when you see that, what goes in your mind, and especially to the younger generation, I'm saying to them, they mustn't just pass it like as if it's a nothing. It is something very serious that can either help us reset or not reset. And I'm of the view that that is something that can help us reset across the board, across political parties, because I'm of the view it should not be the ANC alone that worries itself about Malanga. It should be all political parties, it should be all the people of South Africa, it should be the young people, actually, agreed, who must look at our parents, our grandparents. They brought the liberation, they brought the freedom, but in the process, they made these mistakes. Do we want to make those mistakes? And the reset for me cannot be a reset that can only be decided by the African National Congress alone. I'm a member of the African National Congress. I believe in it, but it taught me to look beyond it, to look to the needs of the people. And these commissions, and this commission, for instance, there was an issue. Do we have it? Don't we have it? When it was, when it started and everything started spinning like this, others were like, ooh, maybe we shouldn't have done it. I personally believe that is going to help us to reset only if we agree we need a reset.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:48:51

Your message on the 70th anniversary of 1956 to all the young women out there. What's your what's your message to them in light of this anniversary?

SPEAKER_00 1:49:07

We want I want the young people today to look at themselves and ask themselves the question. When they are as old as I am, I can talk about what I did for the country. I can talk about the struggle and how we carried it. And I'm not talking about the struggle for purposes of holding them bondage or hostage of the struggle. I'd like them to ask themselves the question: when they are my age, what are they going to talk about? What did they do? Because it's not always about somebody doing something for you. It's about them looking ahead, looking at technology, looking at um economic advancement, looking at opportunities that are presenting them. Can they see those opportunities? Because I saw the opportunity of joining the struggle with an aim of having a better South African. What do they see like 30 years from now? What do they see 50 years from now? Can they see the South Africa they want? Number one, and can they work towards the South Africa they want? Because the women of 56, they knew why they were doing that. And we can see the results. We can see the results of why the dad traveled long distances to be here. 76. The young women of the time, they saw a South Africa, they envisioned a South Africa, but they acted on their vision. So the young women of today must act on the vision of the future and not wait for somebody. We're celebrating 70 years. I would like to celebrate the women in between. Those who came, uh 56, those who came after that, 66, 76, 86, 2006. We need the young people to see themselves belonging there, but they need to look beyond belonging. They need to say, one day somebody will be talking about them, about the things that they did for their country, for themselves, for their family, for their communities. But lastly, nothing pains me like gender-based violence. Nothing pains me than patriarchy that holds women back. But I say to the women, we've gone through that. We fought it, we've succeeded in it. It's their time to do the same.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:52:08

Thank you so much. Thank you. Are you still ginger?

SPEAKER_00 1:52:12

Yes, I am. And as I told you, I looked at the mirror. I'm like, uh uh, I'm not going with my ginger because he's going to distract him. Okay. And you didn't think it'd be.