Episode 47 - Dr Judy Dlamini: Power, Accountability & the Burden of the African Woman

In conversation with Dr Judy Dlamini for a wide-ranging conversation about women, leadership, inequality, medicine, corporate South Africa and the challenges facing the country and the continent.

From the safety of women in South Africa to the barriers facing Black women in leadership, Dr Dlamini examines how history, inequality, institutional culture and leadership continue to shape people's lives.

Dr Judy Dlamini also reflects on her own experiences, the importance of understanding history, and why leadership should be viewed as a responsibility rather than simply a title.

Transcript

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Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 0:01

Does anybody refer to you as Majlamin?

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Uh it's interesting. Very few people uh oh Mom Judy is more water making Mom Judy.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 0:12

Yes. Do you think it's because Majlamini they will feel like it's it doesn't suit because you you look a little younger, they are almost they're almost about to say sis Judy.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. They are very comfortable with Mom Judy. The reason, in my view, because I'm from KZN. In KZN, oh, of course, I'm Maslamini. In Jovic, it's different.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 0:37

They don't okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

I think it's a cultural thing.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 0:39

Okay, but it it's not a bad not at all, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

That's who I am.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 0:44

Yeah, yeah. I I I thought maybe we begin with the the big story making uh the news in the country. Uh in Campton Park, in a gurueni, nine uh women's bodies were found day after day after day after day. Uh returning to the center, South Africa's nightmare, which is its uh murder, that it's a killing machine against women who are in the majority uh vulnerable African women. But in general, there's this country, whether they are white, whether they are African women are getting killed. I wonder if we could begin on your thoughts when you saw that story. Um, on the one hand, but also what do you think it tells us about the state of the state?

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Well, uh thanks uh firstly, thanks for having me, Doc. I like calling you Doc. Um you you know, as I was saying earlier on, um I used to walk, you know, uh in the streets in Houghton uh after work. And there was this one time in 2009 where as I was walking, a guy came out, took out a gun, and I had to run to the middle of the street because I was I felt safer amongst fast cars than with the gun, the gun in his hand. And I stopped working after that. And for some reason, because I've been working quite a bit in other cities, I actually thought, you know what? I just think it's a mental thing. I need to, you know, deal with it, you know, the fear. Yeah. And uh let me start working again in the same week that these women were discovered, and I had to stop, you know. The thing about the lack of safety for any person, especially women in this country, is an indictment on the constitutional right to be safe. The stage is failing us. I am of the view that we tend to focus on the wrong things. Men are this. That's not the core of the problem, in my view. If you can't protect your citizens, if you can't protect the most vulnerable amongst them, women and children, you failed the basic duty of keeping your citizens safe. So for me, that is the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem is let's be accountable as leaders. In any job, your KPAs are clear. If you don't deliver on them, you actually have to account to your leaders, and there's a way to sort out lack of delivery. And for us, it's the lack of accountability, and it almost feels like the only way to be seen and heard is the legal route, you know, because I was thinking, because I've been troubled by this, you know. Um, as you may or may not know, uh I was the founding chair of the GPVF Response Fund. And it was started by the president because of the shutdown uh movement. It had happened immediately after we inene and women said enough is enough. And I was thinking our four bears matched in 1956. That's the only tool they could use. Are we really going to be still matching today for a basic thing like safety? So that that troubles me, uh we say it really does.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 5:17

Kotoma, the the the states have a troubling aspect uh to to the effect that women are actually dying at the hands of their intimate partners. Hence this elevated focus on the men that that is grounded on it's not in most of the cases, the rape and the killing. Of course, it's in the streets, as in your case, but also the case of one of the women who was uh taking a run, yeah uh gets kidnapped, is found to have been killed. But such a phenomenon occurs from the people we call lovers, husbands, uh, brothers, uncles, as well as uh neighbors, people that so in that sense, one one almost feels completely powerless to call on the state.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

I I refuse. I completely refuse to feel powerless ever. And here is the reason when you create a culture where some people are neither seen nor heard, where investment in that group of people is at the bare minimum, you are saying to everyone that they don't matter. It doesn't matter whether it's a relationship inside the house or it's a relationship that gets created when we are killed in the street. So the basic element of all this is do we value our women? Talk is cheap, we said. I want to ask a question. If we value our women and we do the responsible thing, and we set a department that focuses on 51% of the population women, the youth, people with disabilities, how big is that demographic? Yes, does the budget match that? Right? Because you see, the things you value are indicated by how much you invest in them. If you fail to invest in the spaces where the people you claim to value, then uh there's a disconnect there. One. When I became the GBVF response uh fund chair, we called GBVF uh the second pandemic. I call it twin pandemic because it's been always there. COVID arrived when we were there, and it continued exactly. And we fought COVID with everything we have. Have we fought GBVF with everything we have? And here is the thing. When I then became the chair, I knew how much I didn't know, right? I wasn't in the NGO space. I actually remember walking to the JSE with women because I felt I have to do something, you know. But what we then did, assisted by the presidency, Olive Shissana was still the advisor there, is to say, let's call the NGOs that work in the space and understand what are the top three things that can assist you. And one of them was there was a lot of noise about the backlog when it comes to DNA analysis. Yeah. Right? And there were other things. But that we then said as a board, we are going to focus on this. We will look for partners to assist SAPS to address the backlog, and we found people that could assist. But I don't want to say much, but what I am saying is that you can't say you absolve the state because there is cause and effect. If you look at the national strategic plan around gender-based violence and femicide, it has the six pillars. Part of it is research, safety, and so forth. So, unless you address all of those elements, you can't then sit back and say, ah, your boyfriends are killing you, sort it out. No. Hell no. Because unless there is recourse, when a man knows that a woman is equal to me in importance, right? Therefore, I will treat her as an equal human being. We all made in the image of God, so it doesn't matter how you dice it, right? And the state behaves as such, then they would be treating us the way they do. What I don't like to do is to everything gets blamed on men. Yes, there is blame there, but what are the root causes of these things and what does the leadership do to address the challenges that we are facing? So even, you know, when I was young, you were not born, everyone knew there was a death sentence then. That if you kill a white man, you'll be killed. But if you kill a black person, you know, what does that say? You dare not touch a white man. Are you with me? So how we handle abuse of women as leaders, where it counts, influences the behavior. Then all of a sudden, anger is channeled differently, not through the killing of women. Do you understand where I'm coming from? Yeah. So it's broader than just the man-woman thing.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 11:51

Yes, yes. I I actually very much follow because also this DNA example that you are putting on the table creates the condition where actually when it comes to this specific crime, people can get away with it.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Oh, yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 12:08

Um, so which is this question of consequences that are impossible uh to follow through. Your own work uh focuses on women in the corporate space, which is another space that is stubbornly anti-women. I wonder if you could uh, in the interest of marking this 70 years of the women's march this year, uh say to us where is the woman, and I would be specific again to say uh black women, uh where is the black woman in corporate South Africa today compared to 1994?

SPEAKER_00 13:00

You know, not just in corporate, anyway. I have to talk about this. You'll find a profession that is full of women, right? Teachers, yeah. But when it comes to leadership, then the gender changes. That's not corporate, it's education. When you look at the other side of this, when a profession is supposed to be women, nurses, you know, because we grew up. Men were not nurses, right? The minute men enter the space, then the salaries go up.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 13:45

For men.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

For men. Do you get me? So it doesn't matter where you look, how you look at it, everything we do as a people is saying you are less, the man is better. My interest in the space comes from where I was born and when I was born, because we tend to have one brush when it comes to social identities. We'll say, no, it's black economic empowerment, let's empower blacks. No, no, no, let's empower women, and we leave it there. And if you are like myself and you own all these identities, you are black, you are a social class, that's a working class, you are a woman, you fall through the gap. Because the minute they say blacks, we I mean men benefit, the minute they say women, African, I mean whites and Indian Africans benefit, not because they better, because the government of the past invested 15.5 times on a white African child, if you use an African child as a baseline. And on an Indian child, I think it was around 7.5 times, and for a colored child, around 3.3. So history is important, Doc, because for my grandchild who's born today, and she looks and she sees us doing menial work in the majority, seeing the JSE being led by white males. Because she doesn't have the history till we make the effort to tell her, she'll think, ah, I must be less than all these people. There's something wrong with me, you see. So that is one part. It's important for us to remember that the investment made in the past and the exclusion made in the past has a multi-generational impact. You couldn't have our mothers, we're temporary workers, working for 30, 40 years, no pension. How do you create wealth? Forget about land, even before you come there. So there are all of these issues that we need to be clear. This is where we came from, this is the impact, and now how do we address it? So I look at women in their different lived experiences because it matters, because our journeys have been very different. Now, if we are going to solve for our problems, you have to understand which women are we are talking about. Because the study that I did 13 years ago, actually a bit longer, but I captured the thesis in 2013, yeah. Looked at where are these women in leadership? And I looked at social class, I looked at uh race and gender. What came out though was also the age thing and geography, rural women, you know. And what was quite clear as a result, I published a book on it because I felt that society needs to understand the issues. If you were an African woman, if you were rural, even worse, if your social class was working class, you had to work three times more, achieve, they had PhDs, they had MBAs.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 17:46

They were overachievers. Overachievers. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

In spite of that, they had to take so much longer before they got promoted, right? As a white woman, I would just have my BSC or my BA and and I'm sorted, right? And um so why I felt that was important is for us to understand what we do to these women. And I always say when we fail to look at the past and support people appropriately, we actually perpetuate mediocracy because you can't expect excellence and leadership from 15% of the population. If you bring the whole 100%, then you can see meritocracy, you know. So that is my story, um uh Doc when it comes to the gender issue. And I said to you, not only in the corporate, because when I got involved in academia, I then said, hmm, let's see if this story is perpetuated in academia. And surprise, surprise, it is, you know. So it doesn't matter where you look. The fundamental issue we have as a people, not just in this country, the world over, is this obsession with having to make other people feel less for me to feel okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Which is a complex that we need to deal with and confront it. Sadly, we are regressing when it comes to that, because the powers that be globally are trying by all means to push us back to our place.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 19:45

It's interesting. Um I want to think as well, uh along the same lines, if uh we take medicine, yeah, um people will be shocked, maybe, who are maybe uh even uh older than me or younger than me, depending on which part of the country you are at. But of course, one of the big perceptions was women are nurses, men are doctors.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 20:17

Please do address us about gender and the medical profession. Um I know there are interesting caveats, even when it comes to research about the health conditions of women themselves, because of how within the academy in the medical professions, uh domination of men makes the interest male-related, or certain diseases take a specific back seat, as it were. But do address us about that aspect of life which you have been uh uh more or less part of.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Yes, you know, it's very interesting because when I was younger, uh to do mathematics, obviously, you have to master mathematics and to do medicine. To do medicine, yeah, you have to master uh mathematics. And um so as a result, there was this perception that women can master mathematics, and there was, of course, I always go back to this, we were not allowed to enter universities, uh medical schools, of all the universities and all the provinces in this country, blacks were only allowed to apply and enter the University of Natal black section. It was specific. It wasn't the whole of the University of Natal, it was just that. If you apply to another medical school, You needed a ministerial consent, and not many people, very few people. The justification was crazy. Then Medusa came, so the numbers started to get better. But I'm happy to say, though, that the number of women now in medicine is I haven't done a statistic yet, but it's just as high. In my class of 120, I think, only 30 of us were women, and of those 39 were African women because black included African, colored, and Indian, right? Coming to the diseases and their status in terms of research, it's more complex than just the gender. Globally, for a very long time, drugs would be tested on the white male, and then we receive that same treatment, and yet we are not similar. We are similar but not the same. So you have to test the drug on the people. One, two, when we were taught as to how you present with a disease, it was based on how a man presents. It took a very long time for people to realize that no man, we're missing diagnosing, for instance, a heart attack because a woman presents differently. She'll come with the heartburn, she'll come with the shoulder pain. She'll present. Yet, when I got taught, heart attack was based at that, based on a white male. So that is the other one. And the other one, of course, is investment in disease that are peculiar to women, especially black women. But when it comes to race, as I said, it's race, gender, amongst other things. Because you go anywhere in the world, when it comes to people, Africans, no matter where they are, even if they're in the US, it doesn't matter. They tend to be afflicted by renal disease, kidney disease, you see. And then you'll find that the money that gets invested in those areas that affect mainly blacks, not much research is actually conducted in the space. It's a story of our lives.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 24:39

But you you kind of like celebrate, as you say, that there are so many surgeries today operated by African women who are who are who are doctors. And uh 20, 40, 30 years ago, it was so there was a sort of a dramatic shift.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Oh, yes.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 25:04

Uh, and and in a much accelerated pace than it is uh in many other sectors, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

That is very true. And uh I have to thank uh government for that. Uh I have to thank black women for taking uh the baton and running. We don't take that for granted. Yeah, and I have to thank the men that support them. Yeah, that matters. I I I I find it important we say that we we need to also acknowledge our men.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 25:42

Yeah, I I can't relate to that.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Okay.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 25:47

Well, I mean, you know, I'm making a joke, but in a way, so many single women in this country, yeah, but actually the majority uh get abandoned by the father of the babies that were made in some love. Supposedly. Yes, well, in other instances it is GBV, but yeah, when when I hear, I mean, I'm grown by a single mother, yeah, uh, and and the discourse of always trying to balance the men, it's very difficult.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

I can't not do that because I was raised by a father and a mother, agreed. And my father made me feel like I could walk on water. That's why I am who I am today, because of that union, those two people who raised me as a team. I'm married to a good man. Now, I can't sit here and pretend like all men are bad, right? They are bad men. And we have to deal with that. And dealing with it, in my view, is not about calling them trash. It's not about painting everyone with the same brush. It's about having an analysis of how we got here, where our fathers had to go and work in the mines, and in those mines have to make do with their sexual needs and the dehumanization that they went through. The man that left his home to work in the mines came back as a very different man because he was a boy there.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

He wasn't a man. So for me, we say you are a scholar. It would be very unfair for us to just look at things superficially. Agreed. It's important to then say, how do we bring the dignity of that man who's been dehumanized? I'm not underplaying the dehumanization of women that continues in this very day. But I'm saying, before we say they this, they that, let's have a conversation. How do we bring back your dignity? Where did we mess up? How do we then have a healing, you know? Because in my view, we haven't gone through a healing process and we say, if you talk about the past, it's a swear word. The atrocities committed against other races in other parts of the world are so big centuries later that when they talk about it, everyone should like, oh no. But when I talk about my pain, the atrocities are committed against my everyone who looks like me. It's like, oh, there they go.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 28:57

Get over it.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Get over it already. You know what I'm saying? So, but then it's up to us, because the erasure of our pain is also perpetrated by us. Because I'm going to talk about my pain.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 29:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

And you deal with it if you have issues. But the minute we are apologetic, no, we always blame about it. Of course, damn it, we do. Yes. That's why we're here, you know? And we haven't healed. Uh, we didn't have an agenda to say you were dehumanized. That's the starting point. Because for me, human dignity is more important than money. Let's just bring your dignity. Let's just respect your customs, let's just respect how you do what you do your way without judging it. So for me, that is where I come from.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 29:52

I want to go back uh uh to the corporate stuff because there's a concept there which uh I'm um interested in you unpacking. I think it's the queen bee phenomenon.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 30:05

Could you just, for the sake of our audience, explain what that's about and strategies in the final analysis to make sure there are no queen bees in society.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

Here is the thing. I find that you know, during apartheid, there was the divide and rule. So you fight each other, yeah, the Cossa is this, the Zulu is this, yeah, and black on black violence. Black on black violence. It's the same with the female thing. A man will say, Queen B syndrome, you hate each other, you this, this, this. It's the same thing, right? If the society is a patriarchal society, you actually want to align with people that are in power, right? You disown your own. It's race, it's gender, it doesn't matter. So this Queen B syndrome is the doing of the Patriarchal Society, where a man can do exactly the same thing to a woman, sabotaging her, but it's accepted. But the minute it's the woman, it's Queen B syndrome. So you focus on the wrong things, right? And here's the thing: when you are a first woman in anything, everyone is gunning for you to just wait for you to fail, right? Your behavior is not normal because you are protecting in your mind, I have to stay here and I have to thrive. And if there is guns pointed at other women, you are going to be in trouble if you try and elevate that woman. That's part of the looking at it. Are you with me?

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Because it's like I can't fail. A white man will employ a black woman and say, you know what? I can try her. Let's see how she performs. If she fails, the black woman has failed. If I, as a black woman, take a chance on a black woman and she fails, we both have failed. So the double standards make us horrible people. Hence you win, you lose, tell you lose.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 32:43

Have you ever been sabotaged by a woman?

SPEAKER_00 32:48

You know, I'll be very honest with you. This is how I lead my life. I look at people as inherently good. And when they do nasty things, I then ask myself, why is she in pain? Because she's in pain. People are inherently good. When they do nasty things, it's because maybe there's something wrong with them, except where it's racially and sexist and it's clear, right? But when other women get threatened because they feel, oh, she's going to get that position, there's only one position. She's not being a bad person. She is just adapting to a society that is prejudiced against her. So I never look at it as, oh, Queen B or the woman. It's not a woman thing.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 33:54

It's not specific to women. No. So so I'm I'm posing it that way, I mean, in a way to try and deal with how it would come up. For instance, that do you not feel justified to expect solidarity in the corporate space from other black women? That they would, in the way in which they approach working with other women, prioritize the fact that y'all are being oppressed. So in the solidarity of cala, then the way in which when I become a boss, I must pay fidelity, I must be mindful of the fact that I've got the section of the population, I've got an obligation to uh direct developmental, pedagogical, and invest in.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Here is the thing, and people might not like hearing that. How many women lead in the JSE today? Right? And why, and I say this very with humility, that why do you guys put so much weight on us as black women? As explained, you have to be double qualified, you have to work longer for your promotion.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 35:26

By the time you are there, you are tired.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

It's it's exhausting. Like uh I was in a we're celebrating the 70 years, and um I said we stand on the shoulders of giants, and someone said, Imbo goddo and so forth. You know our terms, my age. This firebrand, 20-something year old. I'm sorry, our shoulders are tired. Two, we are not in borgordo. We bleed, we die, we have emotions. So I'm very careful as a woman and as a leader to continue this punishment of women. You should know better. You must support leaders must support all the people that they lead. Where people need more support because of the things they lack, based on whatever, including history, then they need more support. Now, to take that obligation and put it on three out of a hundred women, for instance, who are leading, are we really fair?

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 36:47

Isn't that though, like if I'm thinking uh standard formula for liberation?

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 36:59

First, the oppressed need to realize they are on their own. Yes. No one is going to give them their liberation. Yes. So women, standard uh formula again, women are on their own. Men are not about um to look out for your interests as a collective.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Yes.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 37:21

Even if they did by mere fact that they are not women, they are unable to champion it. For instance, you were making an example about how disease presents.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Yeah. You know, yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 37:33

Even if I've I'm this good-hearted man, I just can't help it. I'm not a woman, I will never be able to truly represent the interests of women. Under those circumstances, that these three successful women, or the first, the first this, the first that, uh, they do carry the burden of history. Yeah. And it's okay. They can't say um it's punishment.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Well, it's easy for you to say that sitting there. And I'll take it back to you because you've dissected social identities and focused on the black women as people tend to. Why don't you make it black? Why don't we ask? Because there are more black men who are leading in the corporate. How can you forget our sisters? We were in the trenches together. Do you understand where I'm coming from? Agreed. You can't say it's your black woman thing, I'm a man. I don't. Of course you do. Of course we fought together. Yes. Now you are in power and you ignore me. You know what I'm saying? So it goes always. But what I'm saying, um, is that one of the challenges that women face is that when they do that, they get criticized and then their career progression gets squashed because she's focusing on these people. I'll tell you what I did though when I became chancellor, because as much as I protect women, I do exactly what you say women should do. Because if I don't do it, who's going to do it? Right? I looked at the professors at the university, the deans, the heads of schools, and I was like, let's do some research. Where are African and colored women here? We look good when it's women, till you slice and say, Yes. Let's dissect which women. And indeed, the statistic I gave you shows that too. It's uh white Africans and Indian Africans, not Africans and colored. And then I was like, what do I do about it? Ask the women that are affected, where do you need support? And they tell you, this is where we need support. And then you go and get funding to say, okay, let's do this. And today we have 107 fellows from this female academic leaders fellowship. And of those 20 are associate professors today, two full professors. Wow. One will be taking as a dean over as a teen in the faculty of her sizes. So, and I'm not the only woman who does that. A lot of women do it quietly. And I won't tell you like I'm telling me how. Because again, when we say it, it's like, oh, look at her. She's praising herself. Can you see how it's a rock and a hard place?

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 40:42

Agreed, agreed. Yes. How powerful is still the perception for uh in the corporate space, maybe elsewhere as well? How powerful is still the stigma, the negative stigma that uh women rise on the basis of uh sexual manipulation? That this distrust of uh the the successful part, I mean, I think maybe not women politicians that much.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 41:18

But once it has to do with riches, with corporate power.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Yeah.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 41:22

Um how powerful is still that perception and is there still work that needs to be done on it? If there is, what form does it take?

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Here is the thing Prejudice fits a certain narrative. Prejudice fits a narrative that I'm here because I belong here. It's about meritocracy, and that's a white male, right? And as long as I can make sure that everyone else stays where they are, if they dare rise, I'll have a reason as to why why they rose. That fits that ego, that the only people who can achieve anything look like me, right? And then there are levels. You you are a male, you are white. So you've got all of it. You are a woman, you are white. At least your relationship to power is race. You are a black man, your relationship to power is gender. You're a black woman, you have no relationship to power. Because you haven't got any of these gender of you see. So I think it's important, I repeat, that when we look at those stereotypes, ask yourself what narrative is it feeding? Right? Because as we speak now, there's a lot of sexual harm that is metered out on women across the board, academia, everywhere. Yes, right? And they have to navigate that space. Because when you report it to, you have a stigma now. You've reported. You don't report, we criticize you. Why didn't you report? So if we get nothing out of this conversation, I just want to make people aware that it's tough for women. It's double, if not triple, tough for African women. Because you're navigating around these issues. If you are being sexually abused by or sexually harassed at work, you are an African woman, and the person who's doing it is an African man, and you report him. And wow, his career goes south in a few cases. Do you know who they blame? The African woman. You see. So that's why I want to move the conversation away from this shoulder of the African woman. You should support your own. You should do this. You actually rise because you slept with someone. And you know, all those things that make us feel like nothing. You know? So that narrative, in my view, has to be changed. And the way it's going to be changed, it's by what we focus on. We focus on the women that are doing well and we support them. And we try and have more people who look like them, which is what I've chosen to do. So I've chosen the narrative that says African women have what it takes. They just need support. They just need a voice. They just need to be seen. And I choose to see them. And if somewhere as you have this fellowship, you sense the trauma. Because that supposedly Queen Bee syndrome, it's trauma. Right? It's and then you deal with it. And you socialize people as to where the vision is, because the vision is an equal society where we have, we actually occupy our rightful space and lead because we do it damn well too.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

You know? So I do feel we we have the obligation for us who have the public platform to change the narrative, to focus on the things that you are capable of and the support.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 46:04

Yeah. Just the last part of the part of the works you do is um which shifts a little bit. And then I will end in a different terrain about some of the things that are facing the country. But luxury goods. Let's try luxury goods. Um I don't know. I'll tell you my question on luxury goods as a social uh the place of luxury goods in the social imagination of revolutionary politics and struggle. Yes. Have you noticed the obsession of politicians with luxury goods?

unknown 46:50

No.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 46:51

What do you make of that?

SPEAKER_00 46:53

No comment. And here is the thing. If you love luxury goods and you can afford them from your hard work, good for you.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Right? If you steal from me to satisfy a need you cannot afford, then I have a problem. As a result, I don't want to isolate politicians.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

They are human beings.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

They have the entitlement to love what they choose to love. Okay. And I have no reason to judge whether the resources to fund that love are obtained legitimately or not. Till there is a case that proves that it was illegitimate. It was illegitimate. Then there is a problem.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 47:55

But don't you think, I mean, Jay, like African politics, uh have we have a problem with luxury goods. Like we luxury goods are more than any other goods. Maybe the other, because uh even when it comes to alcohol, I would say, I mean, you know, but then our our leadership, part of their perception in the world, is this it's like the luxury good obsesses them like a demon, and they are unable to deliver liberation. Almost like if you were to write a manifesto for African politics, you might say we ban all luxury goods.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

You are naughty good doctor, very naughty. This is how I choose to look at it. One civilization started in Africa. Africans love good things, right? Because I guess from the four bears, it's in the genes. We just love beautiful things.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 49:01

Nice bling bling.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Just beautiful things. You go to a beautiful restaurant, you'll find us there. Because we love, we we we have a sense of appreciation for things that are finer things in life. Yes. Parker bed. That doesn't define us as good or bad. That's who we are. What I have a problem with is a leader who doesn't have a vision for his country or his company. Where you say in 2050, we want to be here as a society. If we want to be an innovative country, right, and we commit that we'll invest 1.5% of the GDP on research and innovation, and you only invest 0.6% like we do now. I have a problem with you, Mr. Leader, because your vision is not matched by your commitments. That's the first thing. For me, that is what I have issues with. Excuse me. Have your beautiful things, maybe you put it on lay by for a year, whatever. That's not my space. I appreciate you and your love for whatever. Here is where I have an issue, right? What you say you want to achieve must be shown by investment. If you say to me, I want to eradicate gender-based violence and femicide, show me, right? You said we are going to have a national council. Have you resourced it? Where are we? Talk is cheap. So for me, instead of focusing on people driving their nice cars and what have you. And by the way, I used to own a luxury uh store, so I can't judge people. But focusing on the things that matter is doing what you said you would do. If you say not in my ward, what are you doing? Show us, you know. So for me, that is my gribe.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

That is my gribe. When you say we have no place for poverty, it's one thing to give people 200 rand here and there. It's a completely different thing to say, if I'm going to build human dignity, I want you to own your stuff. Right? And start your own businesses. And you will fail. That's guaranteed. Therefore, I will fund it and give you a buffer so that when you fail, I don't then take your house, take your no, I actually say here is a buffer. Let's get training for you. Is the funding appropriate for the stage of your business? You know what I'm saying, Wilson? As opposed to focusing on just buy one percent, wherever is money for that, but what about I want to start this thing? No, no, no. For me, that is where the discussion is as to how are we showing up for an African child to build his and her dignity by owning her stuff, you know? If you can get that right, handouts, yeah, but that's how are you building dignity, right? Support, but then say, let me support you to start your own uh business, puzzle shop in Yana, and protect you, you know. So I I I think those are some of the ways that I believe we should be focusing on, and uh to build what we once had and lost, you know. So politicians, it's okay with your nice things, yeah, but this is where I'm at.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 53:30

Yes. I guess by way of um thinking about the leadership in the African setting, why are we from Cape to Cairo in the diaspora? There's a problem of African states, yeah, which are states of paralysis, of instability, of war, of disease, of poverty, and states in perpetual disarray, you know. Many predictions are that uh we are on that trajectory as well. What is it about African leadership? Um, in your view, that since Haiti up to the liberation of South Africa has caused this problem that we can't seem to get right presiding over African communities in a sustainable, stable, but also uh a way that puts us as equals uh in the family of states in the global community.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

Uh it's if you can answer that question, uh then I'll give you a Nobel Peace Prize. Because we would have found a solution. You know, we are the richest of other continents, but our people are the poorest. We in my small view, I'm just a doctor, I'm not I I don't have the intellectual uh capacity to pee piece it all together. But in my view, we've believed the narrative that we are less, and the way we respond to it is I'll show them. Right? So we are so myopic in our view that it's all about me, money, money for me, my family, though it's not my money, it's the money from the fiscus and the and also self-hate. You know, when you look at how our people from different parts of the continent are being treated by us, it's two things. It's self-hate, but also it's leadership not doing what they're supposed to do. Because there are laws. You just make sure that, you know, people abide by the rules of the country. But the way we then respond shows self-hate. Because if it looks like me, it's less. You know, if it looks different, then I'm going to respect it. So it goes back for me to the space of who are we? Who are we really? And how can we rise to the greatness that we were destined to? So it starts by caring, it starts by being accountable. I always say when people get a title, they are so blinded by the title. Instead of seeing it for what it is, responsibility. You get responsibilities when you take a title. And that responsibility is growing what you were given so that the future generations are better for it. So that is the problem. Then enters the grid for me is the biggest. And that grid which satisfies I'm better, so I'll have a nicer car than you. And I mean, seriously, now how much money do you really need? You know, and it's a culture that has changed where we actually define success differently. And a car, a degree, this, that, and the other, in my view, shouldn't be the driving motivation for what we do. What should be a driving motivation for every one of us, including students in high school, is how have I made the life of the person that I'm with better by what I have or what I know, right? If I'm good at mathematics, I'll take a class and teach you, right? If I have a whatever, I'll be able to make it better for you. If I lead, I'll look for those that are ignored, that don't have a seat at the table and bring them to the table and hear their views. You understand? So I think it's just a shift of what we celebrate. Because if we celebrate the bling as opposed to substance, if we celebrate someone who walks the talk, because it doesn't help to have a lot of big things to say, but when we look at how are your people, how are you serving them, and you're falling short, then that should be an embarrassment and it should be frowned upon. So I I really think it's basics, uh Doc. It really is basic.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 59:11

What frightens you the most when you, for instance, uh look at our leadership here in South Africa, uh the GNU or President Ramaposa, what worries you the most in light of this diagnosis about uh the state of African leadership?

SPEAKER_00 59:32

The thing that I'm most worried about is accountability. Basics. If you come to me when you start your term and say, here is the status analysis of where we are, I then expect you to say this is where I'm going to take you. But for me to take you there, I need this, that, and the other. And I will work with you to put it in place. And when you come a year later, don't tell me about the problems. I'm not looking for status analysis that was when you started. I'm looking for you to say, here is what we've been able to do, right? Here is where we have failed. And these are the reasons we failed. But here is mitigation so that we don't fail. It's basic, right? It's basic. If you stand in the podium and say, this shall not be tolerated, then show me what you are doing because you are not tolerating it. So that's all I'm asking of any leader, anyway.

unknown 1:00:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

Government, academia, business, that's all. People just want you to care and be accountable. Because if you care, you won't steal. If you care when you say not in my under my watch, then you do something so that it doesn't happen.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:01:18

Under your watch.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

Under your watch. And when it happens, show us that this is what I did. I'm sorry that I failed. Let's have a conversation. Have annual conversations where you failed, because that is accountability. Not once off, and you're not opening yourself up to be asked questions. Because that is accountability. Where you sit in front of the people that you lead and say, where do we go from here?

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:01:58

Are you are you voting? Are you looking forward to voting this year?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:03

You know, here's the thing. Ped for us to vote, right? And they also died for us not to vote if we choose not to. Right? It's just fact, right? They died for us to have a choice, not for somebody else to choose for us. Yes, I will vote. But I just have a problem with what really matters in the minds of the politicians that we vote for. Is it I've got your vote, I can go and do as I please, I've struggled, therefore I can do as I please, or I have a responsibility for generations that come, not just us, those that will never meet. Every day we're building a foundation and we're building this structure that is called South Africa that has to work for everyone. And it's everyone's responsibility to do that, especially the people that are sitting with the policies that have to work for everyone. So the disillusionment is when we have leaders that don't show that they care. I don't say what I care what they say, but show me you care and that you are accountable. If you get those two at least, right? Because if you care, you are going to be honest. If you care, you are going to do things with integrity, right? And if you are accountable, if you mess up, you'll come and say, I messed up. And how is this how I'm going to correct it? So for me, those two are fundamental and they are missing. And I pray that we actually get it right. We just try and care and be accountable to the people and our beautiful country because it is a beautiful country. Yes. And we are beautiful people. We just have leaders that are messing up with us.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:04:25

Yeah. Thanks, Ma. I appreciate it so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:33

In your language.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:04:34

My language is Zulu.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

Oh, okay. Okay, that's interesting. Why did I think Kumbu is any obviously?

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:04:42

Because I speak Susu very well.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

Yeah, you do. Yes, you hardly speak Zulu.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:04:49

Depends, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:50

Yeah, I think the political story behind this.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:04:53

It's true. I'm from the Val, it's predominantly Sutu. I did Sutu first language, so yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:59

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why. No, but um look, we are where we are.

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi 1:05:06

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm I'm I'm hoping that everybody answers uh this question that way, but I am gonna vote, but I