African Renaissance Podcast

Special Broadcast - Ambassador Shakib Mehr of Iran: Having Nuclear Weapons is Forbidden.

• Thabo Mbeki Foundation

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In Conversation with the Ambassador of the Islamic Republic of Iran to South Africa, Shakib Mehr.

SPEAKER_00

No, firstly, Ambassador, let me thank you deeply for creating time, Your Excellency, to be with us and communicate our condolences on the many, many casualties the Iranian people are sustaining in this war, and also on the on the death of the Supreme Leader, the other Tola Khamini. Please accept our condolences. I guess I'd like the ambassador to give us a basic political and historical education. For many of us who may not be very competent because maybe of the poverty of our education system, but also the poverty of our media and public discourse. We know very little about Iran. So the first question I have, and I plead that the ambassador really takes it very in the most basic sense. Who are the Iranians really? And how long has Iran been in existence?

SPEAKER_01

Thank you very much. In the name of God, the most compassionate, the most merciful. First of all, thank you for inviting us to discuss about Iran and about the uh recent developments in our region. Um and thank you for expressing your uh solidarity with the Iranians and your sympathy, and thank you for the condolences that you express regarding to the uh martyrdom of our great leader and the people, ordinary people, which killed by United States and Zionist regime in this war. It is about forty days that uh my country is under the attack, illegal attack of United States and Israel. Um Iran is a is an old country in the region of uh Western Asia. Um it comes back uh centuries, the history of Iran. We have a very rich civilization. Uh more than seven thousand years, five thousand years or three thousand years, there's lots of uh idea about the existence of Iran. Um in our region, you know the uh very basic civilization and the uh the very um beginning of the civilization was in our region, and a start in our region. We have a uh city in Iran which name is Burnt City, Jahra Sukh. Uh the civilization that the history of civilization of this uh city came back to five thousand years ago. And the the findings, the articles that they find in these uh in this city comes back to 5,000 years ago. Uh the political structure of Ivan based on the desire of the people of Ivan. And uh in revolution in 1979, the people uh expressed their uh their new they they want to have a new uh idea, new ruling of our country. And uh you know uh the uh our ruling uh country was the um kingdom in uh in Iran, and in 1979 they the people asked for another structure and they uh arrange and organize a revolution and start a revolution, and with this revolution they put an end to the monarchy regime of Iran and uh establish a new method of democracy which is based on two pillars. One is uh Islam, which is our religion, and it it is rooted in the beliefs of people for more than uh one uh thousand four hundred years, and one pillar is the democracy and republic uh of Iran. Uh they combined these two methods and create a new method of uh ruling country in our society and our political structure based on these two pillars in Iran. Um the institutions and all the authority choose by people directly or indirectly. For example, uh the leader, which is the most important figure in our country, uh choose by the people indirectly. The people with the election through the election uh choose the representative, the assembly of expert elites, and they come together to uh choose the leader based on the characteristic that uh defined in our constitution. Um and also the president, for example, our president choose by the people for uh two mandates, each mandate is four years. The people the representative and deputy of the parliament also choose by the people. There is no limitation for choosing, they can uh be choose several times in the uh assembly, in the majoress representative, as a as a representative and deputy. Um we have the judiciary system which is completely independent, uh, and we recognize the independence of the judiciary system. Uh we have some municipality uh like South Africa, a regional uh election and a local election. We have a general election. Uh you cannot compare the democracy uh of Iran with the Western democracy or with your own democracy. Uh we have our own democracy, which is uh in some uh some parts is similar to you, in some parts is uh different and has its own characteristics.

SPEAKER_00

So maybe as an example, Ambassador, you could give us uh in how the system works, the current election and replacement uh of the uh uh the new supreme leader. Uh how did that happen? Maybe as an example to precisely how the system works?

SPEAKER_01

Uh we have it in our constitution, and we don't have any dead end in our system. Uh the mechanism of uh choosing a new leader uh is in the our constitution. Uh for example, if the leader uh died or it's not possible to continue and fulfill its duty, the assembly of experts come together and uh choose the new leader. The new new leadership, a new leader which has some uh characteristics that define in our constitution. And because of that, after the assassination of our uh late leader, uh they came together and have some session uh to choose the new leader. Um, we don't have any dead end in our uh constitution and in our law.

SPEAKER_00

If I may, Ambassador, um the Iranian leadership, the Iranian security forces have often experienced high levels of infiltration, of spies, of officials that have seemed in the past to collaborate with Israeli interests, for instance. Is there any suspicion that the killing of the Supreme Leader may have been through collaboration, either in the leadership of Iran or in the security forces, that somebody may have cooperated? And I ask this also to request that you you give the context in which this happened. As I appreciate as I understand it was during the negotiations, the negotiations were ongoing since the Twelve Day War. Do you in any way maybe have some suspicion that the murder itself may have been in collaboration with infiltrated internal agents within Iran?

SPEAKER_01

Well, we cannot deny that there is not any cooperation or intelligence uh spying, uh, but um I think somehow they exaggerate about that. Um, in each system, you can find and you can see this kind of um some somehow manipulation of the system, and they want to um um penetrate somehow in the system to uh not only to have some um information or intelligence activity, but also to uh impose the ideas about some subjects, for example. Um but we think that uh they exaggerate, they use some uh somehow combination of uh new methods, for example, they use AI, for example, and they use uh the uh human in uh in spying and in having some uh activities or operation inside Iran. Um we cannot ignore it, we cannot deny it, but uh we should not exaggerate about that. Uh I think it is important that your understanding uh of this subject and this reality should be at the same level that it is, not more than or not less than. You cannot underestimate it or you cannot put a very strong stress on that.

SPEAKER_00

The relations between the United States and Iran uh before the 12-day war as well as the current uh January war, what have been the key moments? And maybe if you could historicize them for us, including before the revolution in 79? What were the relations with the Shah? Have those relations changed after 79? Were they always hostile? Did they get normalized? Just the context to the historical relations between Iran and the United States.

SPEAKER_01

Uh the relation between Iran and uh United States is not starting in 1979. Um I think it comes back, the the hostility and animosity of the United States come back to uh the 1953, the coup d'etat against the national government of Iran, the Mussadek, our Prime Minister, they conduct a coup d'etat and arrange the coup d'etat against our national government and they topple the government, uh national government of Mussadh and uh bring back uh the monarchy and they support the monarchy of Iran, tyranny of Shah of Iran, and they uh support, for example, to um create uh the very dangerous um agency, intelligence agency, which name was Sawak in Iran that um captured the people or uh tortured the people. Um they support Shah in this policy in Iran. On the contrary of the veiling of the Iranian nations, they start the animosity against Iran at that time and they continue it, and they they were opposing the desire of Iranians. When the Iranians want to have another system, political system in their country, they were opposing of that, and they uh um, for example, helping Saddam Hussein uh in eight years impose war against Iran and they provide lots of facilities for Saddam Hussein, lots of data, give them, give him, give him lots of data and uh support financially and also in um international organization block and paralyze every decision uh which was and were uh against the uh Saddam Hussein or in favor of Iran. They put sanction, start putting sanction at the beginning of the victory of revolution against Iran and imposed very tough sanctions, unjust sanction. These are the animosity, and they target uh our airplane in 1988 in the Persian Gulf and killing about 300 people. They target our oil facilities uh at the end of war with Iraq. Um, this shows that the United States uh is not happy about Iranians, that Iranians want to uh overhelm their um um their governance and they want to have independence, they want to determine their determination themselves. Um they didn't respect the sovereignty and independence of Iranians, and they manipulate, they arrange lots of coup d'etat and lots of pressure, such as um, as I told you, um, supporting Saddam Hussein, supporting our enemies, and imposing sanctions against Iran. Our opposition against the United States is not uh mean that we are opposing the people of the United States. We consider United States as two aspects. There are two aspects. There is the policy of the United States, which is opposed to us and uh promote uh the animosity, and some warmongering uh figures are there in order to put pressure to uh start wars with Iran. And there is the people of the United States. We don't have any problem with the people. If you say it's done uh down with USA, it's not down with the people of USA, it's done with the policy of warmongering figures or government of the United States that shows uh there's lots of evidence, we cannot ignore it, we cannot uh forget it, uh, and we cannot forgive it because uh in these uh years in 2025 and 2026, they started two wars against Iran and they kill lots of people, they assassinate our leaders. How can we uh forgive and forget this atrocity against Iranians?

SPEAKER_00

At the center of majority of the time, the United States seemed to have mobilized the world, uh that Iran is looking to build a nuclear weapon. And um this is the main reason we are given uh for why the 12-day war started. In the first place, it was the fact that they're going to uh disable your capacity to build a nuclear weapon, and apparently you are very close to building a nuclear weapon. Um were you uh were you working on building a nuclear weapon as Iran?

SPEAKER_01

Um we have declared several times, more than several times, that we are not looking for building nuclear arms. Um you know they started from early 2000, this accusation, this baseless accusation against us, mostly arose from the accusation of um uh Prime Minister of Israel, Benyamin Netanyahu, that he claimed several times in international organizations like United Nations that Iran is looking for build a bomb, and there is a that the he he uh has some definition for the building the time, giving time, for example, two weeks, uh five months, six months. Um he's lying and he cheats the uh word, uh the public opinion of the war. Um we are not looking for having a bomb and we approve it. We have a full cooperation with IAEA, and uh we are a member of MPT. We have rights, it's uh it's an inherent, inalienable right of us to use uh nuclear uh energy for peaceful purposes, and nobody can ignore or nobody can prevent this uh reality. This is our inherent right based on NPT. We are a member of NPT and we can use uh nuclear energy and nuclear uh as uh uh peaceful purposes. Um but uh we think nobody can make some limitation for us. We have worked with IAEA the before 12-day wars, uh the inspectors of IAEA they were in Iran, the camera over there, we are under the supervision, we are under the verification of IAEA, we are a member of MPT and member of uh safeguards, we respect our obligations. Um at the same time, we have the rights. We have some obligations which we respect and implement our obligations, we have some rights that they should respect our rights to have and to uh use uh nuclear energy for uh peaceful purposes. We are not looking for nuclear arms. Um it is based on our values, based on our uh security doctrine. Um, we think that um nuclear arms would not help the people uh and the country. It is on the contrary of humanity, it is opposite of the humanity uh desire and will. Um, and based off the fatva of our late leader, it is forbidden for us, it is haram for us to build or use such a nuclear, such a such a Arms. Um, and it is interesting that uh the United States, which uh attack us, it is about uh 40 days and once before that in 2025. Uh it's a member of MPT, it has lots of nuclear uh warheads and use it, used it against another member of United Nations during the World War II. We do not remember we we cannot uh forget it and we remember that this double standard of the United States and the other entity, uh Israel-Zionist regime, which uh is not a member of MPT and um has lots of warhead, nuclear warhead, um, although they uh they do not and they recognize that they have uh nuclear arms, but uh everybody knows that they have it and they uh they are not a member of uh MPT and they bombard our nuclear facilities, which is on the contrary, they violate international law and international regulations, because you know uh it's a war crime, it's a somehow war crime when you uh bombard new peaceful nuclear facilities. Uh we have nuclear capability, it is indigenous uh science we didn't import from outside, and they cannot destroy it and eliminate it by bombard, but by attacking and bombarding. Um it's a science, it is inside Iran, and they cannot uh eliminate it, and we can uh and we should and we have to continue uh using this uh uh science and this uh capability.

SPEAKER_00

But you did uh uh mention as well enrichment of nuclear uh of uranium rather that Israel and the United States want to impose on Iran is enjoyed by many, many other countries where they are not seeking the same terms and the same limitations. Uh Germany, uh to mention uh Japan, they've got enrichment of uranium that can be turned into uh nuclear uh arsenals or nuclear weapons. Israel and the United States put a second reason that uh perhaps you or their fear, the fear in particular of the Israelis, is that should Iran have a nuclear weapon, it is a direct strategic threat to the Israeli state because Iran seeks the obliteration of the Israeli state. What is your reaction to that?

SPEAKER_01

Um you know, as you mentioned, some of the countries have the capability of uranium enrichment, and they can um easily they can divert it and uh build a bomb if they want. It's it's a hypothesis, it's not in reality. Um we don't want to be an exception in the world uh based on international law. Uh the international law and especially MPT regulation led us to have this uh uh mechanism and this um it it's a science, it's a uh for example, capability for for each country. Uh nobody can dictate its policy on you because uh you have this right. And some countries use and um they're not exception, and they are not uh under the pressure of the others. Um you know the Israel um accused that we want to wipe up Israel uh from the map, and uh it's not correct. It's uh baseless allegations against us. Um in recent 250 years or more than 250 years, we didn't attack any country or any states in our region. You're a peaceful nation, you're a peaceful government, um, but we think that Israel created an injustice, an unoccupation, genocide, cry, and they uh ignore the right of Palestinians to exist in our region, and they start lots of war against their uh its neighbors, its neighboring countries, Arab countries, and we think that Israel cannot continue like that. We have a solution for resolving this problem in our region, and we proposed it. Um it's a referendum to conduct a referendum in uh inside Israel for the indigenous people of Israel, of Palestine, of that region. Um those who are Muslims, who are Christians or Jews, they are equal. They can participate and vote for their uh future government to form a new government to resolve this problem. It's not created by Iran, it is created by the policy, the warmongering people in Israel. And it's not a new one. Some some uh say that it is start uh 7th October of 2023. No, it's not uh start at that time, it's just it is started uh 70 years ago, 75 years ago, with the atrocity of Israel, with the policy of Israel, with the genocide, it ignoring the right of people, of a nation to exist. Look at what happened in Gaza. They destroyed, they demolished all the infrastructure, all the uh houses, hospitals, universities, mosques, churches, and killed lots of people. More than 70,000 people have been killed, slaughtered. Most of them are women and children. The casualties of this war, it's about 10% of Gaza. It's a huge amount of people. I think these are baseless accusations that they want to divert the attention of people from their policies, their atrocities, their genocide, and introduce Iran as the main cause of the problem in the Western Asia. That's not correct. It's not correct. Our policy is very clear. We uh uh define, we we defend our uh logic and our proposition. It's a very uh democratic resolvic way to resolve this problem. Have a referendum with the uh for the people inside Israel, and not those who came from, for example, Europe or Russia or the other parts of the world recently. You know, most of them uh came from uh the outside of the country and they have double nationalities. For example, they have nationality of Germany or uh Poland or the other uh countries, and they uh they are not indigenous people of Israel, uh of that region of Palestine. Palestine, yes.

SPEAKER_00

But most Palestinians who are indigenous to Palestine, possibly, if my calculations serve me well, half of the population was displaced who lives in Jordan, uh in uh Syria, in Lebanon. And with the current devastation that we have seen in Gazah, that also means there's been even more displacement. A referendum, it seems to me, and you will confirm if I am correct, should include Palestinian refugees. Exactly uh that are not uh either in Gaza or in uh West Bank or inside uh the uh the Green Line, which you know is current Israel, uh, but who are also displaced, that includes the largest uh uh refugee population in the world. Such a referendum, it seems to me, would have to include these people.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. They should include uh their refugees, which uh are displaced now with this policy of Israel. Uh they demolished their houses and forced them out of the country. They should come back to their country, they should come back to that region and uh have their and express their desires and uh to participate in this very uh democratic solution for that region. You know, uh millions of Palestinians now live in Jordan, in Lebanon, in Syria, in Egypt, in the other countries, uh, maybe in the United States or Europe, they should come back to their homeland and uh participate and in this uh election, for example.

SPEAKER_00

This sounds very, very straightforward if I understand. And in any way, nobody in the world should be forced to recognize racism, Zionism, and colonial occupation. It seems to me a very fair demand, uh, and the solution seems as well practical and very much consistent with democracy as people uh come to do self-determination, at least in the modern terms. But Ambassador, you are under bombardment. Um, the recent pronouncements by the president of the United States are promising more devastation. They've begun to target civilian infrastructure, your bridges. It's only a matter of days. They will go to hospitals as they did in Gaza, they will go to universities, um, they they will do that. Um has this devastation, this hardened attitude, uh, the killing of your leader, the targeting of many, many other leaders uh of Iranian people. Let's just say, since the 12-day war and the current war, hasn't this changed your attitude on attaining a nuclear weapon for peaceful purposes? To say, you know, there's disagreements between the United States, for instance, and North Korea. But everybody seems to appreciate that they will nonetheless not do what they are doing to you in North Korea. They wouldn't have done what they did in Venezuela if the Venezuelans had a nuclear weapon. It just serves to deter the type of aggression that we see being implemented, being sort of forced against yourselves. Hasn't this war shifted attitudes on whether you should attain a nuclear weapon or not?

SPEAKER_01

It's an idea. Uh, inside Iran or outside Iran, some some people uh from outside of Iran ask us, why didn't you build a nuclear arm for detaint, for example? Uh if you have nuclear arms, they think more about uh attacking you like North Korea. But uh uh generally speaking, uh up to now we're not uh looking for nuclear arms, and it's not in our security doctrine. Um the future I don't know, but uh up to now it is our firm position and firm policy uh not looking to have nuclear arsenals and warhead. Um as you mentioned, they yes, this is the accusation that they start uh war against Iran, and President Trump several times declared that if we didn't start this war, the Iran would uh dominate all the uh Middle East or Western Asia, and it was a threat for Israel. Iran is not a threat for the United States. Um they start this war at this aggregation that Iran is an uh eminent threat to the United States. Everybody knows it's not correct. And they have miscalculation to start war with Iran, and they uh underestimate our um capacity and our power and our um people. Um they think if they um start war with Iran, the people come to the street to protest and to uh uh, for example, topple the government and political structure. But uh it shows that they have some miscalculation and they uh don't know the reality of Iran. Um the people of Iran came to the street to support, and now it is uh our uh strong point of Iran, the supporting of people of Iran, they support government, and they have some another miscalculation if uh they think they thought if they assassinate our leader, the system would collapse. Uh, but it has happened because the power in Iran distributed uh within the um uh institutions, different institutions, it's not concentrated on a person which is the leader, and by assassinating him, they think that everything uh would collapse in Iran. No, it's not happening. And the other important point is that the um we can defend ourselves, and the um the defense forces are soldiers that uh we proud after. They defend and it is based on Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. Uh now we are defending ourselves uh if they want to escalate and increase the tension, to increase the tension, if they want to uh attack our infrastructure, which is which are war crimes and crime against humanity, for example, uh targeting some uh petrochemical infrastructure or electricity infrastructure. It is war crime. If they want to uh target, we recommend think again and do not uh start this kind of war against Iran. If they want to start this, we respond and we retaliate and we uh defend our people. It is our right to defend our people. Um Trump um has lots of uh different positions. For example, he came to say uh we don't want Iran to have uh or has uh nuclear arms. You are not looking for nuclear arms. He caused lots of problems for our region by the uh blocking of a Strait of Hormos. Although the Strait of Hormos is not closed, we declare several times it's open. It is not close, it's just close to our enemies, to the United States, to Israel, and to its allies. It is open for the rest of the world, for our friends, it is open. But we do not accept that the regime of and the regulation uh of this very important uh straits uh would be the same as before after war. That should be different. And we it means uh Iran and Oman uh will decide about the form of uh regulation after the war.

SPEAKER_00

What if then do you attribute as the true reason if nuclear weapons and uranium enrichment was a a lie? In the analysis of Iran, what is the true motivation for this war, for the attack that you are enduring from the United States and the Zionist regime of Israel? If what they've been saying is not true, then why do you think is the true motivation and the true objective on their part for the attack?

SPEAKER_01

As you know, the president of the United States talked too much. And he, in these uh speech, uh clearly he described the intention and its uh uh aim and goal of starting this war. It's because of the uh natural resources of Ivan, it's because of oil. And it's rooted to the policy of the United States more than 70 years after the coup d'etat of uh United States against the national government of Mosatter in 1953. They're looking for our natural resources. Why they kidnap the president of Venezuela? It's because of the oil, because of the oil of Venezuela, because uh Venezuela uh the first uh country which have which has oils and natural resources and oil resources in the world. And the second is the Saudi Arabia, and third is Iran. And besides of the other natural resources, for example, minerals, Iran is the first country and the second country with the gas, oil, for example, the other uh materials and commodities in Iran. We have seven percent of uh resources of the planet in Iran. It's a huge amount. And they're looking for that. Uh he declared yesterday or uh day before that uh he is going to uh control the oil of Iran. Uh we we can Consider, and we think that these kind of gestures about democracy and the helping of Iranian people is not true. And it's the the mask of Trump and the administration of Trump fell down. And everybody now knows they're looking for our natural resources, mainly oil and gas, and the strategic situation of Iran. And now with the strict of almost everybody knows about the importance of the presence of Iran in that part of the world.

SPEAKER_00

When all fails, Ambassador, you have shocked the world by matching the aggression of two most powerful militaries in the world. You have took them on. You've been taking them on since the Twelve-Day War. You said Trump talks a lot. He has also admitted that they were shocked. And he has used an analogy in relation to their warcraft career, where they had to run for their lives. Iran has demonstrated the capacity to take them toe-to-toe. But people say now they are thinking of the West because they cannot leave the situation as having been defeated. I want to ask, are you scared that their next stage of attacks may include dropping a nuclear weapon in Iran? Are you in any way worried about that?

SPEAKER_01

We think about every scenario, and it is possible, but I think it's a disaster for humanity. If they want to use nuclear arms against Iran, it's a disaster, it's a catastrophic happening for all humanity, for all um for all countries. This is possible, it is possible, but I think there are enough wise and there is enough wisdom in uh the United States politicians and decision makers not to go through this decision. It's too dangerous for all, not only for Iran, but also uh for all over the world. And they should be careful about that, they should be cautious about that. And all the countries uh should uh clearly and loudly oppose uh against uh this policy and uh not to permit United States once more want to use this very dangerous uh attack and operation against any other country.

SPEAKER_00

So, Ambassador, part of what Trump did, which um I must say shocked us uh about the strait of Hamus, he started calling on his allies, uh, including um some of the BRICS members, including China, who had joined the United States to come and defend you know the Strait of Hamous and open it. Umbody responded, but incidentally, you are faced with two countries. You're fighting the United States, attacks from the United States, attacks from from Israel. You haven't called on your friends to help you on the ground to help you uh fight back or to help you keep the United States and Israel and its friends out of the Strait of Hamuz. Why hasn't Iran asked for help?

SPEAKER_01

Uh it is interesting that the Strait of the Strait of Hormuz was open because of the war, it's closed. And now the main goal of uh Trump is opening the Strait of Hormos. It was opened. Why did you start this war? And this war caused the close of Strait of Hormos, and now the main goal of Trump is opening this very important passage for the vessels. It is not ridiculous. Um it's true that um he is in a dead end and begging the other countries to come to help him. He did a mistake and as I told you, they have some lots lots of miscalculation about the power of Iran in controlling the Strait of Hormos. They have a very long coast with that very important and strategic point of the world. We think that we can defend ourselves, but you do not need any assistance from outside of the country. You're not begging to the others to come to our to help us. And you know Trump and the United States and the Zionist regime, they are alone.

SPEAKER_02

Nobody comes to help them. The main question is that why they start this war?

SPEAKER_01

To take control of the our national resources to prevent Iran uh fabriking or making nuclear arms. It is quite clear. He explained several times the Iranian policy is very clear. We are not looking for the arms. We believe on the um security of our region, and all the countries should contribute in the security measures in our region, all the Persian Gulfs. We are brothers, the neighbors. We are living for centuries and for thousands of years with each other peacefully. We don't have any ambitions with the soil or with for the natural resources of our neighbors. We have we are we are satisfied with the quantity and quality of our country. But there is uh the policy, the warmongering regime of United States and Zionists start this war and imposed this situation not only in our region but also in the whole the world. Look at the uh economic situation in the world. It is because of the war and who start this war, you're not looking for war, you are opposed, and we do not want war. And now we are asking not to cease fire, to stop the war. It is very important that they should stop the war.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe then, Ambassador, just on that breath, are there talks happening at the moment between the warring parties, Iran and the United States? Uh where are these talks happening if they are happening? But also what would be the conditions acceptable for Iran to stop the war? What must the United States say? What must Israel commit to in order for the war to stop?

SPEAKER_02

Uh you know we were engaging two times in diplomacy.

SPEAKER_01

We were uh talking to the United States in negotiating with the United States two times before twelve-day wars in uh June 2025 and before 28th of February 2026. They invite us and ask us to have a negotiation with each other, and we started the negotiation and sensorly we entered to the negotiation to reach an agreement. Although we had an agreement that they didn't respect it, in 2015 we signed JCPOA with five plus one at the uh at the presidency of Obama, with President Obama, we signed it, but uh with the uh Trump Trump uh when Trump came uh to the power they wanted to destroy all the achievements of Obama as well as the JCPO. And in 2018, he withdraw this very important agreement between Iran and 5 plus 1 and impose and start imposing sanctions against Iraq. These are the realities we were talking, we were in the diplomacy, they betray the diplomacy, they attack to the table of negotiation. What they start after the starting of this war, you are we are in the fifth uh week of the war, imposed war. Um after that they figure out that they cannot topple the government, they cannot uh destroy our will, they ask for negotiation and they send some mediators through messages, they send some messages to come to negotiate, to reach an agreement. The question is that we don't trust them. How can we trust the United States? This is what for the third war, for this for the uh third time that if we enter negotiation with the United States, who can guarantee that they do not they be would not betrayed once more to the diplomacy and we ask them we do not accept ceasefire This is a circle that they start ceasefire negotiation attack ceasefire negotiation attack. No, we want to put an end to this circle they should put an end to the war, they should stop the war, they should remove the sanctions, unfair sanctions.

SPEAKER_02

They should prevent Israel from attacking Iran.

SPEAKER_01

It is very important. We are ready for negotiation, but we have some preconditions, and it is very important that they respect our sovereignty, our independence, and not to betrate once more the diplomacy.

SPEAKER_00

The conditions include removal of sanctions. Of course. What else?

SPEAKER_01

Put an end to the war. No more attacks. No, no more attack, remove the sanction, and no more attack, hold the region, whole region, including Palestine, include Palestine, include Lebanon. It is very important in Yemen.

SPEAKER_00

Let's come to South Africa now, uh, Ambassador.

SPEAKER_01

Good idea.

SPEAKER_00

So many misinterpretations, misinformation about South Africa's relationship with uh with Iran. Um maybe we begin with the African National Congress. Um, are you able to frame for us what is the relationship the Iranians have uh with the liberation organization called the ANC, which has been presiding over South Africa's government since 1994?

SPEAKER_01

Um it's a good question. Um, I see recently, I I've been here for two years. Um I want to tell you a very uh interesting memory of mine. When I was in uh Iran, uh when I was a student and studying at the university, um there was a film. They screened in national TV, everyone is about the struggle of people of South Africa, Nelson Mandela and Vinnie, and the struggle of people and of South Africa and and fighting against apartheid. And that time um there was a demonstration there, and Mandela came with Vinnie uh to talk to people, and they Vinnie uh say a word that it I remember that word until now. Amantha. Amanda. I didn't expect it that one day I myself become the ambassador of Iran to South Africa. Before here, I was ambassador to Ivory Coast, and uh my first mission was in Paris, second in Berlin, and third as ambassador was in Ivory Coast, and now in South Africa. It's interesting for me. I remember that very interesting memory. Um, we support the struggle of uh South African people against apartheid system. It is based on our values. You know, after the revolution, with the direct order of Imam Khomeini, our late leader, uh we cut and stopped relation with two uh regimes. The two regimes, Israel and South Africa. It is because of the atrocity and apartheid of these two regimes. You know, before the revolution, uh the Shah of Iran support the government of South Africa and supply uh more than 95% of crude oil of South Africa. And we are the shareholder of some refineries here. Um, but the direct order of Mab Khomeni, we stop relation with South African apartheid system and start to uh support the struggle of people of South Africa, uh, regardless of ANC or other uh parties. We support the people of South Africa because we consider apartheid is a is an unjust and unfair system, and it's very dangerous. Uh discrimination is very dangerous for humanity, and it's an oppose of the uh goal and uh our desire, uh which our revolution based on these desires and values. Uh, we support the struggle of people of South Africa, and after the collapse of apartheid, we uh establish a new era of relation with uh South Africa and we open our embassy uh in Pretoria, and it is about 31 years that we have official relations. Um, although the first contact between two countries came back to 80 years ago when the father of Shah of Iran exiled to Johannesburg, um, and he was here and he died here. But uh the new era of relations started 30 years, about 30 years, uh 31 years ago, um, and we support the people of South Africa. Although we have some special relations with some parties that they support us, it's uh uh mutual respect, mutual support. Um for example, some uh uh some uh parties uh recent developments uh after attacking you of the United States and Israel, uh, and starting the the war with Iran, they strongly support Iran. Um well shall I yeah shall I give you the name of these parties? For example, EFF, ANC, EFF, and uh SACP, they support Al-Jama and the other parties um support us and release lots of uh statements and condemned brutal attack against Iran. They are our friends. We consider them as our friends because uh they figure out that it is an unjust war that they should condemn. It's it's a it's it's a rule of jungle. Everybody that feels might start war against an independence country. As I told you, they kidnapped the United States kidnapped uh the uh president of um Venezuela and they assassinate the leader of Una of Iran, of Islamic Republic of Iran. Who is the next turn? An independent country. It might be South Africa, but the other countries, you should not allow them to normalize this ruling, this policy in the world.

SPEAKER_00

BRICS then, Ambassador, which South Africa has a big role in. Um there are other partners, uh, such for instance as India. Um we have seen, I mean, uh president of Iran, of India's very intimate or so uh relationship with Prime Minister? Prime Minister of India with Israel. Uh very open cooperation with a state that has uh by all international law failed the test, uh, but also engaged in a systemic crime as we speak, a systemic crime against humanity in Gaza. The question I want to ask with India in mind does BRICS as a global association represent an alternative? To Euro-American imperialism, Euro American colonization. Because sometimes when you say imperialism, what they are doing or what they did in Venezuela is colonial. Kill the president and tell those people you now report to America. Okay, imperialism in Iran, we want oil, we want a regime that is going to give us oil. Does BRICS represent a movement strong enough against this imperialist global assault led by the United States?

SPEAKER_01

We consider BRICS as a platform, new platform of cooperation between the countries, member countries. We do not consider BRICS should be a block against the other blocks and other countries. Just we want to facilitate, accelerate the cooperation between membering countries. Five countries, China, Russia, India, Brazil, and South Africa is not creating a block in order to oppose or fighting with the other blocks. No. I think they want to uh form a new shape of cooperation between themselves. And because of that, Iran asks to join the BRICS in order to facilitate the cooperation and business with the member states. And you know, now there is a huge amount of population. It is more than 40% of GDP of the world now. It's about half the population of the world. Um I think the most uh and uh important point is to facilitate the busyness between uh the member states of BRICS. Um we do not consider BRICS should be a block to fight or to uh confront the other blocks. We consider India as a friend, and we have a very good relation. Bilateral ties with India is very good, they are our friend. The uh the community of uh Indian population supports Iran. We have a very good relation with the government, uh, regardless of the relation between India and the others. We have a very good relation, we have a very good uh cooperation uh bilaterally and within the BRICS or another international organization such as NAM, such as United Nations. Uh, we are friends, uh we are not neighbors, but we are uh in a uh in the same region, you have lots of common interests, we work with each other. Um and they respect us and we respect them. Um although there might have been some differences, different policy, um, but a common interest is much more than the differences. I see.

SPEAKER_00

Ambassador, final question. The new phase of the war. As the United States targets uh civilian infrastructure, many people don't remember that the very first strikes were actually already on civilians, um, the bombing of the schools, for instance. The United States in this war, Israel in particular, has really not respected conventional um conventional rules that are expected in the conduct of modern war. But you are aware that uh that is happening. When you retaliate to this dimension of the war, what will the retaliation of Iran look like? You have been targeting United States military bases in and around the region, Western Asia or Arab countries in uh UAE, in Kuwait and all of that, Saudi Arabia. But these have been targets of military bases. As they now tend to your civilian infrastructure, when you retaliate, what is it going to look like?

SPEAKER_01

As you mentioned, they started this war with uh war crimes. They target residential areas, civilian areas, and they kill lots of people, innocent people, mostly uh children.

SPEAKER_02

They uh fire against a school elementary school, and they kill about one hundred one body of the children recognized yesterday with the DNA protest. It's a catastrophe and it's a disaster.

SPEAKER_01

It's not just a war crime. They violate all the ethical norms in the world. They should accept the responsibility and we make them accountable.

SPEAKER_02

We make them accountable.

SPEAKER_01

Um you know they threaten us to uh target our infrastructure, civilian infrastructure. For example, refineries, energy resources, or um petrochemical which has been targeted from last week. Um we respond. We should respond. We should defend ourselves. Uh we target their infrastructure, the Israel infrastructure inside Israel. We target US bases uh in the region, in the Persian Gulf countries. Um they might US forces hide out. They they might not in their bases out in they are hiding in some sense, some hotels and some uh residential areas. Um they cannot escape if they want to uh escalate and increase the tension. We increase the tension. Um that would be a very dangerous consequence for all. We warn them. If they want to pursue this policy, we do not care about that. As I told you, they do not recognize, they do not understand the Iranians. Uh we are not looking for war. We did not start it with this war. It is very important. But if they want to continue this war, if they want to increase the tension and target our infrastructure, it will target the infrastructure of the others. And the consequence of this and the end of this war would be catastrophe and disaster for all, for all over the world, for all the countries all over the world. They should put pressure on the United States, they should put pressure. The first nation, the citizens of the United States should put pressure on Trump to stop Trump, to prevent Trump, and the politicians, decision makers, be wise, rational.

SPEAKER_02

And the second, the other countries should not allow the United States to do that. They want to burn the region. Thank you, Ambassador. Thank you. I wish you the best.

SPEAKER_01

Um at the end, I should uh appreciate you yourself that uh let me talk to South Africans. I should um appreciate South Africans, yes, uh, especially during the 12-day war and now with uh this war, they express their solidarity, their support. They are very supportive. They expressed their solidarity to the Iranian people, to the people, to the government of Iran. We appreciate it, and uh we wish you and South African all the best. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

We wish you strength to understand. Thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you.