Episode 29 - Dr Jonathan Butler

In conversation with Dr Jonathan Butler

Jonathan Kenneth Butler is a South African singer-songwriter and guitarist. His music is often classified as R&B, jazz fusion or worship music.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:01

With Jesus. Falling in love with Jesus. What's the best thing back?

SPEAKER_02 0:25

This is a Kamanga we were talking about yesterday. That's the one that is used for on the national order for beauty, beauty, and so on. No, not for arms. It's the one for beauty. The one you give to artists and musicians. This is a symbol.

SPEAKER_08 0:45

The one Jonathan Butler got, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

That you would have got this. He would have got this, yeah. And Johnny Clegg got it as well. Johnny Clegg would have got this, yeah. Contribution to outstanding art and performing and telling them yesterday that when we were doing these things, we're looking for an African name for this thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

And the only person who knew it was a white man. Yeah. We said the thing is called the Kamang. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_07 1:19

That's wonderful. It's going to be very hard because I'm a big fan.

SPEAKER_06 1:24

Oh man.

SPEAKER_07 1:27

You get one of those voices this people imitate a lot in the shower, I think.

SPEAKER_06 1:39

Are you one of them? You said I need you, Lord, so I think it may be sing that, you know.

SPEAKER_07 1:46

Because you know, it's like, yeah, those voices are when you are alone. Yeah. You just wanna like break into songs. Yeah. And sometimes it just happens to you. Yeah. But maybe let's start about the Tabumbeggy Foundation breakfast um session you just attended. Just your reflections on what uh was said, the state of development in the continent, the state of Pan-African consciousness, an African integrated development and unity. And the big proposal that the CEO of uh the AU Agency for Development made at the end. Wow.

SPEAKER_06 2:33

Yeah. Well, you know what, man, I I have to say, I I'm it's uh you know, deeply honored to be here, to be part of uh the President Albenbeck's uh initiative and and Unissa. And uh and I I to be honest, man, uh listening to uh the president speak uh just just what his complete presence and posture and and and just f fresh clarity of mind and the things he was saying about integration uh was was really deep for me because um I do get a sense of there's been many countries during the struggle that supported the struggle. And so I I stood I what I what I got away from what he was saying is that we were sort of harboring grudges against the wrong people, you know. And what I also got away from him is just this uh the integration means the entire of the entire South Africa. You know, the the cut the continent, as well as where I'm sitting with you, you know, there's colored people in Cape Town, there's Indian people, there's we are all South Africans, you know, there's just one South Africa. And I think when he speaks of the the fall or the disintegrated part, that also disturbs me because I can see it. I mean, I've seen it my whole life. As a kid, I was born in a shack, you know, no water, I mean, geez, you know, days and weeks without food, parents that had 13 kids couldn't provide for kids. So I I I take everything that he says in a whole bag. I mean, I kind of have to put it in a whole bag. So I feel like the president made it very clear to all of us and to me as well, that that um, yes, there is a decline in the integration part of the country. And I'm very pro-South African when I speak about South Africa, my travels. You know, people ask me a lot about South Africa. People ask me, but when we go, like I've just had a recent in Mexico, a couple who came to Tanzania, who flew out to Africa. He said, My heart was very broken, my soul, the poverty. People living in places smaller than my bathroom, you know. And I I realize what he doesn't know is I know this. I've been in this, I understand this whole thing. And to hear the CEO talk about the we are one continent. And um, believe it or not, I have a Gabon passport. I played for the president of Gabon, and I guess I got a passport. You know, the the the president just said, you know, welcome to the country. So I'm also waiting for that red passport, you know, the one that they were talking about. Yeah. Yeah, I said, Where's my red passport, right? But I take what the president said very easy to heart because he his experience and his knowledge of the economy, his knowledge about the infrastructure, the what was 25 years ago isn't today. You know, and the my Zimbabwean brothers, my Nigerian brothers, my brothers from Ghana, uh, because I'm a musician, I play all over the world, you know. Uh I remember when there was this genocide thing uh happening years ago, there was this whole thing that was I played in Nigeria and you know I was confronted by some Nigerian brothers who questioned me, who asked me questions about, hey man, what's up with your country? We, you know, we were supportive of you guys, we so I I understand my role is to is to bring a certain light and also to what's happening, you know. So I I feel like very encouraged by what the president said today, you know, it it really moved me. Um I felt like he was speaking directly to me. Like his storytelling was almost to me, and I was echoing amen in myself. But every time he's like staring and talking, he's looking at me. So I felt, man, the wisdom that he has. And what's important is it's still fresh in his memory what happened 25 years ago. It's fresh in his memory what happened in his time, you know, during the struggle. It is still fresh. So there's certain things that you just cannot get away at. You can't get rid of. You know, I can't get rid of the things that happened to me when I was growing up here, singing in white-only clubs, and you know, blacks only this, colors only this. And it was a big confusion to me. It was a big traumatic confusion to me. Why, what's going on here? I'm playing music, but I mean, I can't, you know, I remember playing in David Cramer's band, you know, uh, the famous South African David Cramer. And I couldn't go into the wimpy restaurant, I couldn't go into certain places, but they all could go into these places and eat, except for me. I was the only black guy in the band. So certain things from that era and the struggle does not leave you. So that's what that's what also like kind of really touched me when the president spoke about the struggle and the places and the presidents. And it just impacted me. Like I said, I felt he spoke to me. Yeah, yeah. That's why I said I I wish I could spend the whole day with you. Yeah. So you can tell me more. Yeah, always. Because I've been away from South Africa a long time. I think 40 years is a long time. Yes. And but I've always tried to stay in touch with the politic, the political stuff, the social structure. You know, I still advocate for musicians here, you know. So but on a deeper on just a simple, simple breakdown, what you're asking me, I think I was just moved by the fact that I thought he was talking to me. And he shared, I have a responsibility. I do have a responsibility to continue this legacy and this story about what he's talking about, bettering the country and uniting the country, and not not hating on your brother who lives in another state, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 9:07

The order of Ikamanga. Yeah. Were you shocked?

SPEAKER_06 9:13

Well, I was very shocked. I was driving my car, going to a Vietnamese restaurant in LA, and the phone rang. And, you know, normally I don't pick up the phone if I don't see a person's name. So I said, two plus two seven, and and I picked it up, and it's from the presidency. And then, like, can you be here by the 17th? And I was like, what's this about? You know, and uh I got the the email, and it didn't hit me, it's the highest, highest, you know, thing in the land. And I'm like, a knighthood? What is this? You know, I'm like, am I being knighted? You know, like so it was it was heavy, man. I mean, I I couldn't take it all in, but it happened so quickly. So um when uh I met the president, you know, uh, and I met the um Mackenzie, Gateway McKenzie, everybody was there, and and the president looked at me and said, Are you gonna sing? I'm like, I didn't bring my guitar. So I'm like, oh, snap, you know. And um when they called me up, it was pretty deep. The the the musicians were playing the the the what is it, the navy musicians were playing my songs, and I'm like, oh man, they're playing Wake Up. I know, that's my song. And they played, I said, Oh man. And then I got when I got to receive the award, I was, you know, the president said, uh, hey, you sure? I said, well, you're not gonna have a problem putting the metal around my neck. I said, you're not gonna have a problem, Mr. President, you know. And uh so I I guess I they gave me the microphone, they sang, you know, this is love. And then when the president walked right back up, he said, Man, while you were singing, you just grew taller. I said, I said, well, you know, that's it was really um, it was heavy, pretty, you know. My Instagram, my children, my wife, you know, my office, everybody was just my uh colleagues, my the artists, the musicians I work with, they all on Facebook and Instagram. I'm pretty proud, man. I'm proud to be South African, and I'm thank God that I was actually able to come and be here. And that's what I wanted. I wanted to be here, you know. So I'm really, really honored, man. Deeply, deeply. It's like a kind of surreal. Last night I was in my house and I was like, man, hmm. This is definitely another trip, you know. Uh and it's a moment, it's a moment in my life I will never forget. It's a season in my life I will never forget. And also, you know, I feel like I've been coming home for years and and and and and and you know, echoing South Africa all over the world. And and there was a part of me that almost felt like, man, nobody sees you, nobody, nobody recognizes you. You know, you know, all the Americans come and everybody gets all gun-a, you know, and you're a local boy here, you know, nobody sees that. So it's great to be seen, and it's great to be honored by my own country. That is what makes all the difference in the world to me.

SPEAKER_07 12:34

Your love, this affair which has lasted these many, many decades with music. Do you remember the moment at epiphany when maybe music fell on one knee and proposed the marriage?

SPEAKER_06 12:58

Oh, you mean proposing a marriage to with a song?

SPEAKER_07 13:03

Well, to you, when you when you take a decision, I'm a musician. Yeah, I'm gonna pursue this as a life.

SPEAKER_06 13:12

Oh man, that was uh, you know, I I I hate to sound like a pastor right now, but but um, you know, God knew me in my mother's womb. He knew my name. He knew what I was gonna I was gonna become. I was born into a family of music, 13 children, all musicians. My mother was an organist, my father, uh Liberia Monroe played banjo, my grandfather played banjo, sang, and uh I used to watch them all perform. And I as a shy little boy, I used to hide away from them. I used to shy away from them, but I used to sing for myself, like in while I was, you know, and um my brother had a guitar. My oldest brother had a guitar. He was the only one that had a guitar. So I would see this guitar and try to play it. I'm left-handed, so I would try to play it upside down. And uh one night my parents heard me singing and they decided that they were going to put me in a talent show. Do you remember what what you were singing when you I remember very clearly the song was Delilah by Tom Jones. My father and mother used to have variety shows in the community that would feature all of us, like the Jackson 5. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my mother had a suit made, a black suit with gold here, gold the pal here. I'm like about six years old. And I used to listen to that song, Delilah on the radio. I didn't think I thought Tom Jones was a black guy, because oh, the radio sounded like very soulful. So that was the very first song, and the night I sang that song was the night I knew how much I loved singing. I loved making people happy. I think that's what made me realize this is all I ever want to do. I mean, I went to what they say, Afrikaans, stop ah. I went to like, you know, kind of kindergarten. That's it. No more, not not once one time did I go to standard one or standard two. I went from that stage to singing all over. Durban, Choburg, Pretoria, my lava. So you you were a child star.

SPEAKER_07 15:35

I was a child star. How do you how did you deal with that? Most child stars have, I am told, yeah, if Michael Jackson is to go by this traumatic kernel, yeah, in which because somehow always being in the spotlight, being an artist, yeah, you didn't have a childhood. No, I had no childhood. But then do you did you then know how to not be a child later?

SPEAKER_06 16:11

Well, first of all, I in my home, they spoke Afrikaans. When I arrived in Durban at the age of seven, I was listening to people speaking Zulu and English. So I had no idea how to communicate because I only knew Afrikaans. But I was singing in English, you know, and that was um, I mean, I learned Tula Tula, uh David Derby, I lived on that, you know, while I was uh in Durban. Um so I never had I was among adults my whole life. And that was a complete shift for me. I mean, I had I just grew up in that space where um by the time I was 12, I made my first recording, and that was uh pretty a big deal because that song went to number two on the white pop charts, and you know, to become the first black kid on white radio station during apartheid here in South Africa was was like a no-no. But I went to the top of the charts and I won a sorry award, two gold records. Now I'm famous, you know. Now the girls and people are screaming. You're not you're not 13 yet. I'm not 13 yet, but I'm living in the case in Belgrade. Still in the shanty, still everything is still the same. You know, I'm touring eight months a year, uh singing all these hit songs, you know. The second song came out, that went gold as well. So growing up as a child star was pretty mind-bending for me a little bit because I was alone in hotels. I had no siblings to watch over me, you know, and some crazy stuff happened during that journey. Crazy stuff happened to me, you know. I mean, really, really crazy stuff.

SPEAKER_07 18:06

And yet you have managed to maintain artistic discipline and excellence. Yeah. I I I challenge you to check what happens to majority in uh almost all fields. Um excellent soccer stars, yeah, excellent um actors, yeah. Most child actors, yeah. You don't quite are unable to still find them being a star at 63, at 65. Yeah, it's uh the transitions in between. There is something that seems seemingly gets uh to bury you at some point. I don't know what happens. There's some something you are missing, yeah. Then at some point you go look for it. Yeah. But psychologically, there are no guidelines and all of that.

SPEAKER_06 19:06

Well, there were no guidelines for guitar. Yeah, you know, there was no guidelines. How did you keep the artistic excellence and the It was the guitar? It was the guitar. When most kids were playing out in the street, soccer and rugby and whatever, I was playing practicing my guitar. I used to love just playing my guitar. And through learning Alpis, you know, uh uh Freddie Hobbit, I I I I I was fortunate enough to know to be around Pekkium Suleko, uh Duke Makazi, Dennis Mpali, Ezra from Z from Google, what's the Mankunku? Winston. Yeah, uh, you know, Temba Masha Makulu, uh Bani Rajabani, I I was around all the Alan Quella, the late Alan Quella. I was I was fortunate to be in this environment of jazz minds and intellectual minds, and they always used to say, hey, Delighty, they just let you go to sleep. Why is he sitting up here listening to us? And I was like, I was part of a huge play, basically, and these guys were all there in Joburg. So um I went to Fordsburg, was the first time I saw David, Gilbert Matthews on drums and you know, C Part Sticks, all these guys. So I was, there were no guidelines, but they were all these minds that that I learned, wow, you know, music. So that kept me, that kept me busy and kept me going because besides all the beatings that I got and hidings that I got and you know, the molestation and all that stuff that I had to go endure privately, quietly without talking to my parents about what was happening to me on the road. So then fast forward, yeah, I get become famous at the age of 12, 13. Now I'm playing in this, you know, white establishments that I can't even use the bathrooms in. So everything was, by the time I had reached uh 15, I was a young drug addict already. I was just, you know, everybody else was smoking.

SPEAKER_07 21:14

And you were dealing with some of these private traumas.

SPEAKER_06 21:20

Yeah, yeah, in my own way. And to bury them was drugs was was, you know, was ganja, it was buttons, mandraks. You know, I almost died. I mean, I got to a point where I was almost going to die. And then um, thank God for a young man who from PE, who was uh a huge fan of mine, followed me everywhere. And he was the one that actually instrumentally led me to Christ in PE. And uh I can be very direct with you. I was I was like I accepted Christ Friday night. Saturday night I didn't I didn't even know I was a drug addict. I was Completely in a different mind space. I was I came, I drove to Cape Town from PE and uh went to see some of my old buddies, the late Tony Sidras and Russell Hermans, all these great guys that I used to hang out with here in Cape Town. And my life completely changed. But it was uh, you know, it was it was a string of life happened to me, you know, and life happened really fast. You were 19 at the time. I was 19 when I got saved, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 22:33

The big, particularly here in the Cape Flats, but across the country now. Yeah, yeah. Drugs are drowning a lot of uh talented South Africans before they even come to appreciate their gifts and their.

SPEAKER_06 22:52

I'll give you an example. You know Seventh Avenue that I just played. Yes. This song that became famous in South Africa. I was I was high when I wrote it. I was high writing Christian songs, gospel songs. I was so high, but I was writing them before I even got saved. So there was definitely some God's hand is definitely, you know, guiding me. The Spirit was probably guiding me through a I'm gonna have to go through this this journey to get to the other side of it. And then I really, you know, find out Seventh day was like one of the biggest songs in the country.

SPEAKER_07 23:27

How were you able to to write a gospel song when you were not saved?

SPEAKER_06 23:34

It was just, it was just um there was it was just this this thing, this desire to to write about, you know, I write about God. Were you longing? I I was either longing for that for that for that transformation and that that shift in my life, you know, because everybody around me was definitely not sober. You know, and I remember uh Braka uh from the All Rounders, Hendrik Braccar was he started the first black label in uh record label in Jobu, and he signed me. You know, when he signed me, he said, hey, uh the all-rounders are for Blind Brothers, and and he said, Him and I got 700 Rand, you know, as a as a as a advance, you know, years a year advance. I said, Man, I took that advance and went to smoke it out in the studio and created Seventh Avenue, created the whole record, and the next thing I know, I hear the songs blowing up everywhere in the country, you know. And now I now I I still play it now in the US and and share the story, you know, of all of that stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 24:43

From a composition uh point of view, uh I'm always curious what what happens. Uh I mean you probably have to have had to answer this question a thousand times, but and maybe it's different moments. But what happens? Do you do you hear drums? Do you hear guitar? Do you hear a voice for a new melody that you would be bringing into being?

SPEAKER_06 25:18

I always hear music first, you know. When you say music instruments, I hear I hear a full melody in my head. I will hear on my phone, I have melodies in my head that I nowadays I can just use my phone and just record it. But that's the first thing that happens. The lyrics, the lyrics sometimes comes all by itself, but sometimes the lyrics could be a brain. But tell me about the melody.

SPEAKER_07 25:42

Is it is it is it delivered? Do you hear or do you hear? You know, like um how does like I mean I mean I'm I'm just when I wrote and I heard and then and then I'll just and that's the first thing I'll play on the piano.

SPEAKER_06 26:14

Yeah, I'll just lay down the bass line and I'll go da da da So I'll sing it. And it will just How do you know? How do you know? This is a new song coming. It's just you know, it's uh just let the Spirit guide you, man. Yeah, just let the Spirit guide you. And um, like somebody said to me one day, said, you know, you're gifted, you know, but wait till the Spirit of God comes upon you. You'll play a different way. You'll be able to play a different way. You know, when I was young, I wanted to be a fast guitar player, but now that I'm older, I it's about choice of notes. It's just just like how the president Tavubeke just spoke. It's his timing of delivering the a story. I think that's the same thing sometimes. The older I get, the more I I want to play that really specific note.

SPEAKER_07 27:08

Was there a fundamentally challenging compositional moment for you? Were you like this was the most challenging piece of composition?

SPEAKER_06 27:18

It was Heal On Land. It was Heal On Land.

SPEAKER_07 27:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 27:22

Because I always say to myself, that's probably my perfect, that's the perfect composition that I've ever written, you know, because if you hear the intro, do do do do but do the do and then when the melody starts, then it goes shifts to no, it says it's wrong, did you ever say it amen?

SPEAKER_03 27:44

And it all, and then we will not wait until tomorrow.

SPEAKER_06 27:49

So each block is a different block, but they but they connect, but they do connect. So for me, that was probably personally probably the most perfect composition I think I've written, composed, because it's it is truly intro, verse, B section, you know, and then it has what we call a middle eight. They don't write songs like that no more. Nowadays they just you know, four bars of a groove. Yes, yes, and then you sing everything on top of their groove, and that's it, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:26

What name would you give to your style, to your genre? I mean, um it's hardly uhly not a proper description just to say jazz.

SPEAKER_06 28:41

No, it's not, it's not just jazz.

SPEAKER_07 28:43

I think what would you say you you did? What would you say? I they said John Island was easy, shean. Yeah. What do you what was he doing musically?

SPEAKER_06 28:56

I think it's it's you know, think about I think about I've I've I've lived all over the world, I've traveled all the world, I've eaten all the food from all over the world. If I go to Nigeria, I have light soup. If I go to Ghana, I have peanut soup, you know. So my music is a is a collage of of where I've been. So it's kind of like uh it's like a global vision of music. I have a global like when I wrote Many Faces, I was in Abidjan, I was in, you know, Côte d'Ivoire, and I heard black people speak French. And I was like, oh man, shoo, my brothers are speaking French here. You mean let me let me, you know, and then I'll swan. Yeah, and then years go by, and I and I'm in the studio with Richard Mona and Bob James, and I'm playing this tune with Richard, and so I'm starting to listen to Richard's music, and I get so inspired. I was like, man, so Richard actually inspired that whole thing with Abidjan and uh the the traveling so far and meeting Richard is just what made that album happen for me.

SPEAKER_07 30:06

So I I think they still have to find the category for the music that I do because it's I think it's uh it's it's but what's what is what is I think it's what South African.

SPEAKER_06 30:19

What is South African about it? You know, South African is the melodic smile about it. My music is it has a melodic South African smile. The melodies are all coming from here, the chord structure, it comes from here, the rhythms that come from here. There's there's there's other little bells and whistles that kind of sounds American. A lot of people today, are you this guy is from the States? Are you from the States? So I'm like, no, no, I'm from South Africa. But you sing like this, you know.

SPEAKER_07 30:49

I mean, if you're not singing, yeah, uh, I mean, I'm saying when the vocals are absent, you hardly could say, it seems to me like this is a piece of music from LA or Atlana or New York.

SPEAKER_06 31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 31:03

It's when you start playing it with uh with vocals that someone can be confused. But it doesn't seem to me.

SPEAKER_06 31:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 31:10

I hear South Africa.

SPEAKER_06 31:13

No, I that's what it is. Listen, I'm glad you I'm glad you do because you know I I'm a huge Earl Clue fan. I was always that's why I played nylon string. Because Earl Clue was like one of the only guys that I ever that inspired me to switch from electric to uh classical acoustic guitar, like the one I'm playing today. And uh George Benson was a huge influence because he sang and he played. He could play, you know, scat and do that. So I thought, oh man, these are my two. And then there's Stevie. Stevie was like my true hero in terms of as a composition, as a writer. Stevie Wonder, you mean?

SPEAKER_07 31:51

Yeah, Stevie Wonder. Yes, yes. You know, so don't I I mean, is is this the real vocal influence? Uh, because I'm I I didn't think the issue.

SPEAKER_06 32:00

I'm just gonna like sort of tie it all in for you because in the end I realized, you know, there's only one Stevie, there's only one George Benson, there's only one Oakloo, and there's only one Jonathan Butler. So be that guy. Just be JB from Cape Town. Yeah. And I think Seventh Avenue was the was the was the departure for me away from the Western style and technique, and play more music from here, you know. So every album, Ubuntu, was created here. My next my new album was born here called Mother City Strings Collective, was born here, and it's all the local guys that I'm working with. Uh and I think that's what it is. I think, you know, to find a category for me, it's I guess I was I'm not a formula, you know. That's when you are formula artists and everything you write is the same. You write, even if you're writing for other artists, yeah. They sound like you. Your music is so entrenched into their, you know. So for me, I think I'm just happy with the way I sound. I think I'm happy the way I sing, I'm happy with the way I'm playing.

SPEAKER_07 33:10

How how much of uh romance has tired of that stuff? It it it did, it did uh make a lot of babies. I was just getting carry on, but but how much of it uh is a kick in majority of your compositions, man.

SPEAKER_06 33:37

Listen, I still have to sing a lot of those love songs, you know, take it care of me, love songs can let you more than friends, Sarah Sarah, shoo. I have to still sing it now. If I don't sing it now, my office will call me. Hey, that promoter, that promoter is Virginia, man. He's upset that you didn't sing this hit song. So if you're ready, come go. You know, I still do you love me? I still have to sing all those love songs.

SPEAKER_07 34:00

But what what was the what was the case? I mean, were you the is it is it about different moments of struggling at the romance and trying to give language to emotions of a young man, sometimes emotions of uh Well, I was writing these songs when I was young, you know.

SPEAKER_06 34:20

I was in my mid-20s. So I'm writing these love songs that are like for adults. And I'm singing these love songs, you know, like more than friends is a triangle. It's like uh having two girlfriends, you know, more than friends, and and and I and here's the kick, here's the real kick. I'm a praise and worship leader in my church, and I'm singing these songs. I it was a big struggle. I struggled with that a lot. Why? I was I mean God is love. Yeah, no, I know, but you know what, man? I my pastor would come to my house and sit down and uh I'll play him the new album, you know, and he'll go like, oh man, oh that's good.

SPEAKER_07 34:59

It's the devil's.

SPEAKER_06 35:00

But you know, JB, you know, uh, have you thought about maybe, you know, your worship leader and you know, the song says she's a teaser, and then there's I'm a sucker for you, and I, you know, I I tried to skip the songs as he's while he's there. But um I've since matured and realized that God, our gifts are for the world, not for not just for the church. I was called to be in the world, not in the building. You know, God, when I realized that God had called me outside of the house, I was free to be me. You know, I know there's a lot of Donnie McClerkans and the Wymans and they're all in the church and stuff, you know. But the but the churches I have are people who do not ever go to church. And I'm able to minister to them in a way that that I think it's really impactful when you can. I sing falling in love with Jesus at jazz festivals because people want to hear it. They want to hear it, they want to hear I need you, Lord. I sing it to them, you know. So my ministry is outside of the church, you know. And and I also go into the church and and minister in church as well. And there's no like real, I don't think there's a thing that I I've never had a pastor deny me the joy of singing in his church. I always get invitation. I get a lot of invites to come and minister in the church, so you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 36:27

So South African music also there's a lot of sub genres and certain genres as well, where the guitar is just the most predominant instrument. Yeah, yeah. And uh specifically uh uh Maskandi is uh, you know, I I remember talking to one of the most prominent uh Maskandi artists, and he was like, these chaps today they mustn't call themselves Maskandi because even how the music was named, yeah, you have to play. Yeah. And it you have to, you can't have someone else play it for you. Yeah. Um in in your developmental stages with with the guitar, how much did you drink from uh different spaces of South Africa's signature uh sounds?

SPEAKER_06 37:27

Well, Alan Keller was definitely one of them. Um Becky uh Suleka was one of them. Um you know I grew up in a in a really I was fortunate to be in the presence of Ezra and uh Zim Kawana. You know, I knew Zim when Zim was just young. Zim came to stay with me. I brought him from PE to come and stay at my house, and we had a little band together, and then Zim, you know, just blew up and became this amazing, you know, Nette Coleman type of guy, you know. So I think I took, I take, I've taken a roots are so deep, man. And I think the older I get, the more I my ancestral, my ancestors are calling me to echo. And it's it's almost like being a Sangoma, you know, you're a medium, and so you become a medium to that music, and you're channeling that sound through through your music, through your language. Even if you, you know, I my buddy Bagitya Kumalo, uh, played with Paul Simon, you know, I'll come up with an idea and I'll say, hey man, I hear this word, I want to call it something, but can you give me the meaning of of this word in Zulu, you know? And uh he said, Yeah, I'll give it to you, man. You know, um Ivulum nyama, nyanyeta, Africa. I said, okay, now how do I put that in the song, you know? So we are playing, and I was playing it, and I said, Ivolum nyama, yanyeta, Afrika. And that's how Ubuntu came around. So I take, I have been, I'm no longer uh what prohibited. I've allowed myself to just I've opened myself up to channel all of my ancestral sounds that comes from here. And that's what people are so attracted to in the US now. Yeah. Because there's nothing like that on contemporary jazz radio. I mean, they all sound, I'm I I love all my friends, but they all kind of sound like the same. The the BPM beats and everything sound like, you know. Um, but Marcus Miller was here with me and came to work with me here, and I feel like there's something when you open up the faucet man and you allow the ancestral, the roots of your country and and your uh from the place your your place of birth. Yes, let that come through your music. And I'm I just wrote something recently in this at Soundcheck that's just so home. You know, everybody's like, oh damn, is that a new song? Or where's that song from? He said, No, I just wrote it right now, you know. So I'm like that. It's a it's about allowing, I take from everywhere. And I was in the Sothoo, I and so I I wrote a song just recently. We were in the Sutu last year, and uh I called the song Mutalipule. Uh and it was like the one who brings the rain. Yeah, Mutalipule. So that's the name of the song. Yeah, yeah. So you know, so I've got Kamisa, one tune is called Kamisa, Mutalipule, Oguma. Um, and I'm just tapping into, I think it's the years, the years that are finally letting me, letting, setting myself free and opening myself up like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 40:48

Uh just uh a quick one on your vocal consistency. Yeah. I mean despite a moment as well in your life where let's say you experimented with dangerous things, yeah. Your voice is one of those consistent. And very few people in your age sound like they sounded 40 years ago. Yeah. Like if I pick up their yeah. Uh I mean, I was I was thinking uh Mariah Carey, yeah, uh, but we you go and and I can still and you're an old man.

SPEAKER_05 41:31

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 41:33

Cut hey, you know, so so what what what's that about? I mean it's in the genes, it's in our genes. My brother is 77 years old, and my sister is in their 70s. We're all in our 60s, late 60s into 70s, and they all have a range, they still have their range, and they smoke cigarettes, and they still have all their high range. It's insane. My brother Danny probably sings higher than me and he's in his 70s. Wow. You know, and I'm I'm uh listen, I I just thank God what he's given to me is is something that is just it's just, you know, it's just there. Yes. You know, I always tell my wife, the day you hear me sing like an old pastor, get me out of there, you know. Because I can tell one guy that's one artist, man, one icon to me was Tony Bennett. Tony Bennett's range has always been amazing. I think he's a tenor. I mean, he was even with Alzheimer's, he, you know, when you I heard him sing, James Taylor's another one, voice never changed. Um, I think there's just some of us, you know, it it's it's I can see, I can just say God has given me this box, and this box is just the day this box does something crazy, I don't know, I'll I'll probably I'll probably notice it. But you know, I I I I think when I was little, I learned to sing on the spot. Yes. And you know, those are the early days you have to do a TV show in the morning at seven, six o'clock, and you gotta sing. Yeah. There's no miming. You gotta just sing. And so I'm still like that. People go, uh, do you warm up? Do you do like, you know, uh I said, no, no, I don't do any of that. I just get up there and sing, get it over with, you know. Just get it done. Get it done. I mean, I'm excited about music, man. I think I I'm I'm excited about music and excited, but more than I'm excited about anything else, man. I'm but there's nothing in the world that can take away what I feel about music. I you can divorce me, I've still got my chops. You know, I've been divorced, so I know I've had my chops have been with me. You know, I've had to to figure that out. And I'm married to a beautiful woman now from uh St. Louis. She plays violin, and uh she's always on my case too. Hey, you know, you can do a little more than what you've done on the record. Try it again. Okay. Try it again. So I'm I'm I've been blessed, man. I've been blessed. The family, it's in our genes. We just You just know how to do it. Yeah, I you know, I love the way Miles Davis said it. You know, he said, man, you know, I think about music all the time. I can get rid of it. And it's the truth.

SPEAKER_07 44:22

I can When when we go through heartbreaks or when we are extremely um happy and all of that, music accompanies us as special. I wonder what happens for a musician when, for instance, a divorce, divorce can be such a shatter. Do you also take refuge in music?

SPEAKER_06 44:47

Listen, my friend, my brother. I remembered that day. And I remember something that was quite crazy. My house was on fire, you know, after my divorce. Just just like really my voice, the divorce happened, then I got a fire in my home. I remember the night before the fire, I had a song in my head. I sang that song in the ambulance while they were stitching me up. So music kept me. Music even charged me more. I mean, I mean, I was more charged to find uh I ended up I ended up taking the music director gig at a church in Texas. And it just kept me going. It just, it just uh I heard different melodies, I heard different chords, I had different lyrics, you know. I wrote an album called Free, it's a gospel album free. Um uh I wrote all those tunes, it just came to me, you know. Um so I think musicians have uh uh they have a they have a and I think what what what what is really cathargic uh uh uh you know for us, what gives us like a way to express ourselves is that we're able to sing the songs. We're able to communicate through music, and that's one way, that is a way that we can get through our hurts, through our disappointments, through our difficulties, you know. It's almost like therapy. You know, my wife always says, Man, when you stand on stage, you you you feel you you're just so open about who you are and and what you've been through. And I said, Well, I've always I've always had that because of music. I've always been able to. Because when people are ready to receive that too, you know what I mean. Sometimes you do something like no no women, no crying, or you do uh falling in love with Jesus, and then you can you can't hear pin dropped. And sometimes those are the most vulnerable moments that people appreciate, that they get to see and hear you, your vulnerability, who you really are, you know. I talk about apartheid when I'm on stage. I talk about segregation, especially now in the United States. I speak on what that was like for me growing up in the 60s. What's what's what's what's with Trump though now?

SPEAKER_07 47:13

Because we hear the texture of American society has become even more antagonistic against anyone who is not American. I don't even know how they know who's not American, but yeah, um we are also as South Africa have become a target in Trump's head. Yeah. Yeah. With his uh Africana refugee program, the weakness Africa is.

SPEAKER_06 47:41

I mean, I an ill-informed human being, you know, an ill-informed human being uh will never, you know, I i it's hard to listen to an ill-informed human being. Uh he knows nothing about South Africa. He doesn't even know how we coexist in this country, which whether we're Jewish or whether we're Muslim, you know, uh Kassa, Zulu, we we we we coexist. We've been through 30 years now of democracy. For me, did I experience racism in the US? Yes. Yes, especially during the time when George Floyd was was was brutally murdered in broad daylight, you know. I mean, I had people come, you know, in the sore telling me, go back to your effing country, you know. I've had all kinds of stuff happen. And I never thought in my wildest dream that I would experience it there, which I did. And um, but you know, I continue to educate my fans about my journey and why it's important that they hear my stories because it gives them an opportunity to look perhaps maybe inward as well. Because all these people that come on safari, they learn about not just about the safari, but they learn about me and they come to South Africa and they see what the country's all about. So it's been it's it's it's a very divisive environment. But you know, being optimistic about those situations of I think they call them ice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ice, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 49:18

Have you had any encounters with any of the people?

SPEAKER_06 49:21

No, I have not had any encounters, but I I I did go through um I was flying somewhere, and then I had to connect in at JFK. And, you know, all these TSA people are not getting paid. They haven't been paid for government workers, the government shut down, it's created, you know. So now they put ice in there to to go through, you know, security, you have to go through ice. So when I went through, you know, I showed my document, I you know, I showed my passport, and and this dude is you know taking a long look at my passport and my documents. But the thing is this, he doesn't know what he's looking at. He's it's not like he's he's uh an educated guy knowing how to deal with, you know. But when I come through customs now, it's it's not like I go through a whole process. It's it's certain um I don't know how long ICE is gonna exist. That's a that's the thing. I don't know how long that's that is going to last in the US. I think it's it's become more of a uh less of a discussion, political discussion on the news, be it CNN or N SMEC or you know, Fox is another you know, whatever's on Fox, I don't really watch. I just you know, because everything is rosy on Fox. You know, everything else on other news channels is different. But for me, it's it's um it's an unsettling environment. It is very unsettling, you know. If you're a foreigner, it's unsettling, you know. People that voted for for him are also deported, you know.

SPEAKER_07 50:53

Let me conclude with a a um a basic request. If you were to give to the young Jonathan Butler and Athlone today a master class on how to be 63, meaning for the next fifty-three years is nine or ten. Here is my guide for you to remain consistent your ten thousand hours, your vocal and music mastery. If you were to guide this nine-year-old or ten-year-old, what would be your three golden rules?

SPEAKER_06 51:50

Well, that's that's that's a heavy three golden rules. Well, first of all, I don't, you know, I have no regrets for the things that uh that's happened to me, even though the things that have been really viciously like I've like I've honestly shared with you, you know, being molested as a young boy, seven years old into nine years old, becoming a young drug addict, um, you know, my my my crazy and wild life, you know, that lived in Cape Town and around the country. I I have no regrets because I've met Jesus. And through my relationship with Jesus, and I don't mean it in this in a religious way, I mean it in a real way, where I have tangibly had a relations have a relationship even to this day at 64 years old. Um I have no regrets, you know. I I I I I think I would tell. I think that boy, if he was sitting right here, he'd be st he would be sharing the same stories that I've been sharing with you. Because the things that happened that that little boy is still I'm still that little boy. I am very much still that little boy. I'm not gonna let the old man in. I'm gonna tell that little boy, don't let the old man in. Because behold, all things have become new. All things have become new, and all the old things have passed away. You know. If a man be born again, you know, um, which I am baptized, um I sought a spiritual journey for myself. I would hope that boy would seek a spiritual journey for himself. I would hope that boy would be determined to learn um his craft, his his his tools, sharpen his tools, iron sharpens iron. I would hope that that boy will find iron to be sharpened with. This is a life forged. This is a whole life that is forged out of pain and disappointment and difficulty. Why do you think I should tell that boy this is gonna be rosy? No. I'm gonna be rosy. I've never had a rosy time. I have a rosy time now. Now I know exactly what I want to eat, but when I leave here, I know exactly what I want to do when I get, you know. But it's I've never let the old man in. I'll tell that boy don't let the old men in. Make sure that you are so slow to speak and quick to listen. And implement everything I tell you. I think it's it's very that's like a loaded question, you know what I mean? Because um it's not the same for you and me. But that boy is still sitting here. Unfortunately, I can't give you those three questions answered because that little boy is still sitting in his chair looking at you and still reminiscing, still seeing those days of him losing his toe, playing soccer across the street. Mom had to sew it up, go to Red Cross Hospital. Uh, you know, I I think um it is all about hard work, you know. We praise God when things go well, but God also sees that it's a partnership with him and you. You guys have a partnership. And if you don't play your part, man, don't blame God for it. Don't blame God for the things that you never attained, you know, because you just didn't play your part. So when people look at me, they just see the the good side, you know. They don't really that's why today today at the presence um at this at the lunch at the breakfast this morning. I made it clear for people to understand that I came from the shanty house. I want to make sure that they get that picture, that they don't get a picture that it's you know, it's a Khuritman, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't let the old men in. Don't let the old man in.

SPEAKER_07 56:04

That touched me. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 56:11

I hope we connect again, man. I gotta get you calling, we gotta grab this brother's info. I'd like, yeah, we can maybe have a meal or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be lovely.

SPEAKER_04 56:23

There's an urgency in this place. There's an urgency in this place. There's an urgency in this song. Can you hear it? There's an emergency. There's an emergency. We gotta heal this nation, oh god, we gotta love. I hope you love my gotta say healing today, yeah. I'm talking about healing this land, talking about healing the nation, talking about the children of our nation, talking about our legacy, I'm talking about our legacy, I'm talking about our room. We got to heal. Shoo, shoo, shoe, shoo, shoo. Hallelujah, hallelujah. I don't know, I feel like singing. I know you wanna talk about business.