EP 43: Ciara Glynn on Peer Support in Ireland, Trauma Recovery, and Compassionate Crisis Care

In this honest and thoughtful episode of Shoulder to Shoulder, Cate speaks with Ciara, a peer support leader, trainer and activist from Ireland, whose own experience of trauma, distress and trying to find the right support has shaped the way she now works with others. 

Ciara manages Solace Café in Dublin, an out-of-hours crisis prevention service built around lived experience, connection and compassion. In this conversation, she reflects on growing up in difficult circumstances, struggling with fear, shame and substance use, and spending years in systems that often left her feeling unheard rather than helped. 

What changed things was finding spaces where she could speak openly, be heard as a human being, and begin to make sense of what had happened to her. Her story is candid, grounded, deeply human, and speaks powerfully to what peer support can offer when people are properly listened to.

In this episode, we explore:

✔️ How peer support helps people feel understood, not managed

✔️ Why trust, mutuality and human connection matter in recovery

✔️ The difference between lived experience and purely clinical support

✔️ The challenges peer workers can face inside formal mental health systems

✔️ Why honest, compassionate spaces can change the course of someone’s life

Show Notes

Connect with Ciara:
http://linkedin.com/in/ciaraglynn1

Listen now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

With-you consultancy: www.with-you.co.uk

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It's all about the focus. The intention of if we're looking at psychiatry is symptom reduction, assess, diagnose, medicate. Where's the connection in that? Where's the relationship? But with peer support, the focus is the relationship. The privilege of being in peer support is that they see us as one of them, which we are, because we've been there too.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

Welcome to Shoulder to Shoulder by With You. Today we're hearing from Kira about crisis, about survival, and what happens when support shows up at just the right moment. It's a story about being met with understanding and how peer support can change the direction of a life. Welcome back. For people listening to this, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do now?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

So, yeah, where to begin, I suppose. I'll begin with what I'm doing now. I am operations manager for an out-of-hours crisis prevention and crisis resolution service called Solace Cafe. So in Ireland, here the plan is to have them spread out nationally, but at the moment they're all pilot sites. So I am managing the one in Dublin, and uh I have my own experience of distress, um overwhelming states, accessing services, and that subsequent healing journey. And the team that I work with, we have peer connectors, but the team and everyone on the team we all share a lived experience, so it's a lovely space to be. Previous to that, I worked in the HSE, which is the public services here in Ireland, and I was part of the first cohort of peer workers that were integrated into the system here in Ireland. So I'd say I'm working in mental health about 10 years, coming up to 10 years now, and most of it has been a privilege in the sense that I've been using my lips experience throughout all of those roles. It's a lot, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And when I think 10 years, I'm like, Jesus, how's it 10 years already?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Yeah, absolutely. Um, now yeah, so you have dedicated so many years to this, this kind of work. What is it about peer support that keeps you showing up every day?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

I think there's a number of things really selfishly, it's what I get from it. I'll go with that first, even though there's other stuff that I care deeply about. Um, but just on a personal level, what I get from the connection piece and connecting with others, given that for the majority of my life, that's been a real challenge for me because I grew into an environment and grew up in environments where there was so much um harm and unsafe spaces, that connection was something was challenging to me. Um, so the connection piece is massive, but then also I get to show up as authentically me every day, which is a real powerful thing in peer support because again, so long not being yourself or not being able to be yourself or not being able to be genuine, and I get to do that every day in work, so um, I think those two things on the personal level have just added such um just I've experienced such growth, I suppose, um, for those two aspects, but then of course the other important part is what I witness in the people that I've supported over the years, and that's the effectiveness of peer support, really. So those things all together.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

You said in our earlier conversation, and I quote, this shit works, right? You said this shit works. I love it, it encapsulates it. So take us back then, and let's talk about what life was like before you found peer support. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Um, I think like in the years pr leading up to discovering peer support, I mean the formalized version of peer support, the job that I ended up working in. Um, in the years leading up to that, I had a veiled of peer support, but it wasn't uh called peer support. I didn't know what peer support was. Again, it wasn't a formalised version of it, it was that organic experience of humans coming together and supporting one another. Um so I was struggling with a real intense fear of people for a long, long time. Really, if I look back, I've definitely had it since I was a child and all throughout my childhood, but it got really uh debilitating and unbearable in my 20s, and I couldn't leave my house, and I experienced a lot of panic and overwhelm any time I stepped outside the front door, really. And that is because I grew up in I would say uh poverty in the 80s and experienced a lot of dysfunction within the family, in the community, in my environments, and all of those aspects really ended up like it contributed to me developing this intense fear of people. I carried that through life, but I kind of I lived through it with a lot of drugs and alcohol in my teenage years and in my early 20s, and then it just became unbearable to use them as a distraction or really a coping mechanism. I mean, a lot of people say, you know, drugs, drink are bad and they can be, but at the time they're actually what I needed, and they helped me survive for that period of my life.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

And speaking to a lot of people openly about that, it that's another cool thing about peer support, is that we can openly talk about our drug use in the past, and you know, people are okay with that because it's part of our job, and whereas other people are really stigmatized about that. But for me, um, I had a sense of community in those spaces, and it was a distraction from all that childhood trauma that was bubbling below the surface. Right I think I covered most, just a snapshot of what led me to this.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Absolutely, because you couldn't work for eight years, could you? So when did you enter services?

SPEAKER_00 7:05

That would have been like when I say that I had, you know, struggles for a long, long time through my teens and into I always think, you know, we kind of get more self-aware. Well, I did in my twenties where I couldn't hide this stuff anymore. And I suppose I couldn't really I was subconsciously was hiding it, but consciously I didn't know I was hiding it. That just becomes apparent as you get older.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

I know exactly where you're coming from on that. You you kind of don't realize you're hiding stuff all your life, yeah, and then you're right. In your twenties, you kind of think, Oh my gosh, you know, and there's that sort of realization that something's gone on.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yeah, yeah. And then I think when you get that realization, you can start to pinpoint all the other realizations, and that's the self-awareness that comes with you know, growth, I suppose, and healing. Um, but when I first went to services, I had been struggling really severely. I was going into work every day, um, hiding in the toilet, crying in the toilet, having panic attacks in the toilet, crying all the way home, and just trying to carry that distress for two years because I was so terrified of telling anyone that I was struggling. And when I look back on that period of my life, I always say now when I'm talking to people about this, like that was actually the darkest period. Now entering the services and the eight years after that was pretty bleak as well. I'm not saying that that was in any way better, but that isolation piece of not knowing what was going on, being too far terrified to tell anyone, and I just became really suicidal at that point, and I thought, you know, I'm I can't live anymore like this, and that's what really prompted me then to finally ask somebody to help me, and that's when I ended up in services then. So I was in service, I'd say maybe four or five years. This is another thing about getting older the memory with timelines. I used to be able to nail the timelines, and now I can't anymore. Um, so yeah, I think in the probably four or five years in the mental health team, the medication, the doctor, the appointments, the therapy, you know, um that kind of uh space where really nothing happened or nothing moved. Actually, I think I got worse in that time.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Yeah. Uh you mentioned before that you actually believed at the time that uh quotes experts uh would fix you.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

What was it actually like for you uh putting your trust in that system knowing what you know now that it was actually harmful to you?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yeah, I think you know when you're that uh desperate for help, and when I use the word desperate because that's exactly what it felt like. I was in such a dis a state of despair, and this is is it 20 years ago? God, my math isn't great. Maybe you know, it is it's coming up to maybe 20 years ago, probably about 16 or 17 years ago now, and I can still remember the despair that I felt that day, that first day I went to services, and I can still remember that feeling of desperation and hopelessness. So when you're at that point, you have no choice, I don't think, but to put your trust in others. And if we're being told, you know, psychiatry, mental health services, you know, they are where you go when you're feeling like this, you do think they're going to work, so you do put your trust. So I think it's easy to put your trust in it when you're at that level of, as I said, desperation for help.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

So you left services in 2010, and then you found something called the National Learning Network, is it?

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah, that would have been in 2014. So after being in services for a few years, I felt that there was nothing changing. I was heavily medicated. I put on about um six stone at that point from the medication, but then also not being able to leave the house and getting into a cycle of um binging as well at that time, and yeah, it was just trapped in this cycle of I don't want to go outside because I have this intense fear of people or social anxiety, as I would have referred to it in the past, and then eating and then putting on the weight and then not having the energy, and it was just this horrible cycle. And when I was in this airvis, um, a therapist, I don't know, couldn't tell you what they were. Maybe they are an OT, maybe they were a psychologist. This is the thing, I don't people realize when you're attending somewhere, you can't tell your psychiatrist from your psychologist from your, you know, they're all just people that work there. Um, so this person had me do very harmful exposure therapy where I'd have to go out into public shops and kind of up the ante of my madness and my craziness to to get a reaction, and that was actually very harmful. It set me back for a long time. So when all that harm was going on and life wasn't changing, I felt anytime I was going in to speak to anyone in the centre, they just I felt they weren't listening or they never got me, and I felt really debilitated but limited. I felt like I was given like a pessimistic prognosis, really. So I went to the National ARN Network in 2014. So when I left the services in 2010, there was a period of a few years, um, again, not great with the timeline, of trying different type therapies in private settings. And not that I have money or I come from money, I was on disability allowance, but my whole disability allowance was taken up with one session of therapy a week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

So your whole disability allowance for the month was taken up with one.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Oh no, for the yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I was fortunate that I could live at home and you know didn't have other expenses in that regard. But the yeah, the amount of money that I put into, I suppose, trial trial and hour trying to find someone that I felt comfortable with, I felt safe with. I was definitely distrusting of people again because of my experience in the services and also my whole life experience. Um so I discovered the National Learn Network then, and that's really when things started to change for me, and that's when I first experienced that informal type peer support.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

Right, right, and it was just sort of sitting around with others who understood. What environment was that in again?

SPEAKER_00 14:04

So it's a train and center, they have them all over Ireland for people with different types of setbacks in life, so like mental health, physical disabilities, cognitive disabilities, and then they have various type courses. So the course I did was Job Start, which was 18 months long, so it was different training modules. I don't have the Irish Leave Insert, which is equivalent to the GCSEs in England, so I basically got my leave insert by attending there in different modules, the same kind of level. Uh, but it was there that I started to sit around and chat with the people and we talk about our experience of the services, and I started to look at them and think, well, they're normal and they're nice and they're capable and they're smart, they're funny, they're intelligent, and they have all these diagnoses that they're sharing with me, and I think they're amazing, so you know why can't that apply to me? So it actually did a lot for the self-worth and the normalization of me looking at them thinking, well, they're pretty normal to me, so maybe I am too.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Wow, that's kind of peer supporting action, that isn't it? Yeah, yeah. How did that feel for the first time in your life? Kind of feeling that you actually are just an okay human being, you know, there's nothing wrong with you, is what I'm trying to say, you know.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Yeah, yeah. I I'd say it took a while to get to the full acceptance of that, you know, and I don't know if that all happened. Again, it's like looking back, isn't it? If we're looking back at things, we don't know the growth is happening until we reflect. So at the time I definitely felt comfortable and safer, but was still very much that fear of people and that barrier was up to connect, but that started to defrost. That's where the defrosting began. But that didn't come till later, that kind of awareness of how beneficial that was because I think when we're in recovery, we can't see it happening. It's the few years later where you look back and you think, Whoa, like I picture me walking in there and sitting down and being at a table and not really talking to people. Like that's totally not me now. I'm the first sitting at a table chatting to everyone, do you know? So it's it's looking back and knowing that was a period of growth, but maybe not really realizing it in the moment, still being really terrified and still distressed.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

And you mentioned to me before when we had our pre-chat, um, that you still have that fear of people, but it's something something shifted. What changed?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

I think a lot a load of things changed, Kate, but for me, like I've just I've been in spaces where people have brought different ideas to what it means to struggle, and that's contributed. So in those earlier, in the earlier days, it was this individual journey that I was on, and some ways I needed that that I needed to look at some trauma, you know, kind of look around that, what that meant for me. But it's really the wider stuff that came after that being in conversations with people who brought different ideas about what it was to be distressed, and that's where I started to find meaning in my journey because I found that the services and any support I accessed before, any professional support, was all about sit symptom reduction. Like that was the holy grail. You reach symptom reduction, and that's it, you've made it in life, you're resilient, you're strong. Um, when really no, if I had a focused on symptom reduction, I'd probably still be in my room, not leaving the house, not being able to connect with others. So I most definitely still get anxious, but the difference is now I know where it's coming from, it has meaning, it's a signal to what has come before, but I'm okay with it. I'm you see, the difference is I'm okay with me, I suppose. I'm okay that I have those feelings, they're normal, they're normal reactions to my life, so I'm okay with them.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Yeah, I get that. I mean, the times where I've accessed services and you know what they've actually been able to do is uh get me to a level where I can function okay. The growing and the thriving and everything that comes from that is got nothing to do with anything that I've had, you know, through services.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Like you say as well about um speaking with people who have different forms of struggle and all the things that come with that, you know, realizing that everybody's struggle is different, not having um imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

You don't feel like you've got imposter syndrome because you actually realize that what you're going through, what you've been through is just as legitimate as what everybody else has as well.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Yeah, yeah, I can so relate to that. And even where you said there about the services, you know, there to get you to a point of just being, yeah, at that point, but that the real kind of trive in the inner work, the growth has actually nothing got to do with that approach or that model. And I feel that even working in services and hearing people's stories and then my own story, and anytime I meet a peer like yourself, there's always that common feeling that we know what truly worked in this space for us as individuals actually happened in other environments, and the amount of people that I see see and listen to with those experiences kind of baffles me slash angers me that we don't lead with those things when people are telling us this is what works, this is what me made me feel fully human again, you know.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

And therein lies yeah, one of the biggest conundrums in peer support, and how do we get to that point? It's a whole different um discussion, isn't it? So let's talk about the power of peer support. And what do you think it is about peer support that clinical approaches often miss?

SPEAKER_00 20:40

I think the focus is it's it's all about the focus. What is the focus? What is the intention of this s type of support? And it goes back to what I said there earlier. The intention of if we're looking at psychiatry, is symptom reduction, is assess, diagnose, and medicate. That's it in a nutshell. Obviously, there are people within that who have different ideas and different understandings, but that's really primarily what the biomedical model is offering. So where's the connection in that? Where's the relationship? Of course, again, it can happen with that with certain individuals, but with peer support, the focus is the relationship, the focus is the connection, so it's a different focus, and I believe the focus needs to shift in other types of supports, but then you know there are people who are psychotherapists or therapists or whatever solic uh psychologists, and their approach is also relational, and the focus being on two humans in this space, relationship building, connection. So I just think that with peer support, we often get there sooner. And it feels more mutual because we are peers in comparison to other type interventions or professionals that would say they're also relational and seeking, you know, that safe space for people. So it's not to say this is better or that's worse or whatever. It's just different focus and different type of support, really.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Yeah, there's kind of a need for both, isn't there, at various points. Um, I would suggest from my own personal experience.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Um, so basically it's kind of depathologizing our distress, isn't it? And um you mentioned that the proof that this works is the fact that uh there's been people in the system well like yourself, and they say that basically they've never felt support like peer support. Yes. So you know you talked before about not being in the fixing game, which of course we're not in peer support. What does that actually look like for you in the Solace Cafe in practice?

SPEAKER_00 23:03

It's a it's a real because I came from peer support in working in the service so for so long, it's actually been great to get that opportunity to lead on a team because I always felt I'm trying to push this ideology of recovery-oriented peer work into this system that is so like uh contrasting in those values and that ideology. So being in the space where it's fresh, it's new, we all started from the beginning to really implement those ideas from the beginning and to see the effects in action, um, knowing that it's worked because I knew it worked when I worked with people in the HC and bringing it into this space, but then you know the team are great. A lot of them they never worked in mental health before, so I was actually the only person that had that mental health experience of a service, and they of course have their own experience of accessing services and living with distress, but even some of their ideas are still around what we think is support in traditional senses. But I will say this when we bring peer support and we bring recovery to people who have never experienced those things, they all think it's a great idea, and they're all on board and they want to work that way because they would have loved that in their own journeys, you know. Um, so the fix and bit it can still slide in sometimes, and I always think of um intentional peer support, which I'm a trainer in. I've done the course myself, and my team just did an overview there with my friend Lisa Archibald, and you know, I'm always there's three parts of that, and it's listen, connect, and validate, or listen, validate, and connect. So I'm always walking around the cafe just saying that because sometimes people can still slip into the fix and advice mode. I feel myself wanting to do it sometimes as well, but we know with peer support that that's not the purpose, you know. And I think you know, again, other people working in mental health, there's there's people that understand am I directive or am I non-directive? Am I giving advice here and skills, or am I actually just focusing on relationship building?

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to Shoulder to Shoulder by With You. Today we're hearing from Kira on crisis connection and why peer support works when systems don't. So when someone comes to you, say, really perhaps confused, maybe engaging with this kind of support for the first time, what do they need at that point that a clinician can't give them?

SPEAKER_00 25:48

I think a lot of the time, um reassurance and validation, but also that connection piece, it's definitely a different way of work. And and when we see people coming into the cafe, or even when I support people one-to-one in the HSE, the amount of people that say this is different, this feels different, and a lot of people have had bad experiences with services, and I feel the privilege of being in peer support is that they see us as one of them, which we are, because we've been there too. So they openly share some grievances around the service experiences that they had. They felt and they weren't trusted in their own thoughts, their own ideas, their own opinions. Whereas peer support, you know, we're truly not judging those things, and we probably have similar experiences from clinicians. So I think it's a very different type of conversation that occurs in peer support, and I feel that trust is built quicker in peer support spaces than versus traditional settings.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Let's talk about the system debate, then, right? You said something that might surprise some people that you're not sure peer support belongs in the system, right? Some people might agree with that, some might not. Tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

It's funny because when I said that, that was probably the last time we spoke. And today I feel like it doesn't belong. So I keep changing whether it does belong or it doesn't belong. And today I could be just where I am in life at the moment, and maybe because I'm reflecting on my time there and just the the struggle of being a peer in the system, yeah, and thinking no, it doesn't. And what's you thinking behind that? It's because I feel that there are so many challenges with it, and I actually think it's so harmful, and I think at the core the ideologies are too contrasting and too conflicting that I don't know if they can ever work well together. And I feel when I say that a lot of people who are very passionate about peer support and wanting it in the system could feel uncomfortable with that statement, and I acknowledge and understand where they are coming from because they know it's great, it's vital, it's important, it works, it needs to be part of it. Um, but I don't know if they have experienced what I have experienced and what many peers have experienced, being peers in the system. Lots of people have had great experiences in there, and that's down to you know, the team is it recovery oriented, is it non-hierarchical? Is there a shared understanding that we are all experts in the area of our chosen fields and we're coming together to work together to support people? If that happens, I can see why you would think peer support is good in the service, right? So that's where I'm, you know, some days yes, some days no.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yeah, I I guess it depends on the context as well, doesn't it? Absolutely. I've spoken with people who are in there due to traumatic physical injuries, and they said that it was well, some of them I should say, said that it was one of the most amazing things that happened to them having that kind of peer experience in there.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

But um, you're right, uh it depends on the way it's handled. Uh and you mentioned the hierarchical thing, absolutely, because really when you're in that kind of setting, it is inherently hierarchical, isn't it? So to try and kind of you know put that out of your mind when when you're speaking with a peer in service might be problematic, like you said.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Yeah, and and you know what, Kate, if you had to ask me maybe five years ago how I felt, like I do ever look back at yourself and hear you say things that you said in the past, you think, God, I won't say that now, but I can see me whole passionately saying how this was great and how peers needed to be in the system, and I can remember being in peer spaces where people would make comments like, How can you work in there? How can you work in the HC? It's so harmful. And this is the truth that I still believe in, but I more um suppose I have yeah, different understandings around it now. But in the in the past, I would have said, um, well, look, whether we like it or not, people, the general public society thinks that when you are struggling with your mental health, you go to your GP, you get referred to the secondary mental health services. So it's better that there's peers in there than not having them in there at all, because most of the population is going that way. You know, they don't know about alternative spaces. So I still think it's important to have peers in there, but I think especially in Ireland, it's been it's been a real challenge. You know, a lot of peers have left the system, and a lot of peers have really been harmed by the system and the setup and management and the structure, and that's never been documented or commented or even explored, and that just feels harmful to me because I'm like, hang on, let's not rush everybody. Oh, get more in there, get more in there. You know, what happened to the ones that had to leave? Like, I absolutely loved my job, absolutely loved it. Really had a good, good, great few years in there, um, but then different leads brought different ideologies, and we soon became very medical, whereas in the beginning we were more recovery oriented, and that's why I enjoyed it so much at the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah, because Ireland started out with 40, didn't they?

SPEAKER_00 31:49

And then now, um, I think there was 33.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Um, 33, and then about I think it went down to like 20, but then 10 more were hired, and then loads of them left. So honestly, I think there's I don't want to get this number wrong. It's terrible. Someone only told me recently, but it's definitely way below 30 and way below where hired. Let's put it that way. There's I think there's more left than as left in. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Such a shame, isn't it? Such a shame. And and especially because you mentioned that nobody's questioning why people are leaving.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

And it's also a shame because I know personally a few of these peers because actually I know them all because I know I'm I'm closer to some than others just because where we live in Ireland. Um, but I I uh teach on the peer support course in DCU. So in Ireland there's a university level accreditation for peer support. Right. So I teach on that course with my friend um Martha Griffin and Lee McGowan, and I see all the new peers coming through, and I would have known a few that got jobs in the service, and they were bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, so passionate, wanted to get in, do this good work, had trained, built up their, you know, their whole journey, their healing to this point, and then left within a few months because it was just so harmful for them. So I don't think that's that's cool at all in any sense, you know.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

To have that kind of passion and enthusiasm almost beaten out of you by the system is not good, and it's not it's not a great place to be so early on in your career, is it?

SPEAKER_00 33:37

No, no.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

You mentioned before you know, you're questioning whether uh we're leading people into harm just so organizations can say they're progressive, uh, they can kind of pay lip service to the fact that they're you know, there are peer supporters working within the system. Do you think that's the case?

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Oh, absolutely. I mean, in Ireland we have a lot of, you know, conferences and stuff, and I feel that there's always people speaking out about there's a few buzzwords, there's lived experience, trauma-informed, recovery-oriented, you know, and when we really peel it back and look at it, are we doing those things or do we just like the sound of them? And it's not that people aren't passionate about these, but I feel really to progress anything, we have to hear the the challenging stories too, and we have to make space for them. I couldn't, you know, be in a space or speak to something that isn't truthful because actually I speak about this a lot in when I'm giving talks. I actually think it's another form of silencing to not hear people's stories of their experiences in the system. And yes, peer support workers can be harmed by structures and organizations, but other staff can be too, and I think we need to get honest about and what we're doing for people. So I definitely think there's a lot of lip service, a lot of tokenism going on. And if we look at the peer support research, it's worldwide, not really just specific to Ireland.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Right, interesting. Because I mean, even just hanging around on social media and doing my everyday kind of life, in my you know, my private life, the the word lived experience is it's a new buzzword, you hear it everywhere, even in environments where that have got absolutely nothing to do with peer support. Lived experience is like the thing, yeah, the phrase of the moment. Kind of think to yourself, do you actually know what that means?

SPEAKER_00 35:39

I know, I know. Hashtag lived experience. Um, yeah, I see it all the time, and that's upsetting because as a person with lived experience, you know, it's just yeah, the tokenism piece, I think it's just so upsetting. It's it's upsetting for many reasons, and one of them is because at the root of that, there is a devaluing of what we actually bring to spaces because peer support is so powerful, so effective. Lived experience in like which is different in the sense that if you're bringing lived experience to a board, a meeting, you know, a webinar, seminar, whatever it may be, that's a different type of lived experience, isn't it? But that is so valuable. So to see to to like to belittle that into something that is just tokenism is just deeply upsetting because I think at the core it's the devaluing, but it's also the um distrust in our capabilities, you know. I think really that's what's underneath it all.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

Yeah, because I mean if you take it out of the mental health sphere, anybody could say they've got lived experience of anything. You know, I've got lived experience of playing the piano because I'm a pianist. It's kind of loose, uh the way it's just kind of loosely banded around this expression, I think, uh it's devaluing and really kind of detracts from what it really means in a in a sort of peer support lived experience space. Yeah, yeah. So where are you now in your journey? Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

So I would say I um I feel very fortunate that I get to be in spaces like this, and I'm invited to spaces like this to talk about this work that is so so meaningful to me and to you, Kate, and to other peers. And I feel, you know, this is something that I'm always going to be passionate about and that I'm always going to care about. And speaking to someone recently there, and we're talking about, you know, work and life balance and all that, and I was saying, you know, they're so entwined, and I always say this, they're so entwined. So I feel very fortunate and lucky that I'm in this space. I would consider myself an activist now, and I've moved into that space in recent years, and an activist for the lived experience and peer support, but also for um spreading the message that there are other ways to make meaning in your life, and that really is what I'm all about. So I think peer support is not just a job for me, it's not just a role, it's actually a way of being, and I think all of that just really radiates out into personal life, personal relationships. So I would say I'm in a good place with that, and it's the work that is so fulfilling, and activism as well. I love a quote that I've been sharing recently, and it's um activism is the antidote to despair. So it comes from an old quote which is activism or I'm gonna get this wrong now. Activism and the antidote, action is the antidote to despair, but activism is the antidote, is an updated version of that by a lady called Is it Judah Herman? Sorry, I'm just gonna grab one of the books here. Yeah, trauma and recovery, Judith Herman. She was on a a podcast recently. I know people can't see this. I'm showing people. Oh, right.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Judith Herman, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

She was on a podcast recently, and that's a quote that came up in the podcast. And I really think that is an antidote to this despair because I feel like I'm working towards something better, you know, and something better for me and for people like me, and for the people that I support and my team and services, like I'm working towards that, and that feels like an antidote to everything that I've been through.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Wow, and you mentioned work-life balance. What does that look like for you now? It's not much of it.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

It feels very after that big that big speech there, and it's like, hmm, work-life balance. Well, you know, I I used to live in Dublin, and I'm actually saving for a house, so I'm back in the folks at the moment, and so it's kind of restricted in what is available around me. Yeah, but I mean, like things that help me in my journey kind of evolves all the way. I do love going to um see films, so I love like independent films, and there is a great cinema in in Dublin, which I haven't been getting to much lately, but it's the lighthouse cinema, and they always show you know different kinds of alternative independent films. So I love going there on my own um and just taking that space out. And it's funny because in the past, because of this social anxiety, I never would have gone to the cinema on my own. I would have been too like, oh, I can't do that. But that's probably my number one thing. I really love film. Um, so going to something like that, and then after that, it can be cycling, it can be walking, I love going on my bike. Also, I used to live beside the sea, so I used to love getting in the sea, but I can't do that anymore. There is a canal down the road, but it's a bit shallow and um doesn't look as inviting as the the sea. Other than that, I just love connecting with people, and yeah, I feel that these things that we use to you know help us in life, for me, they're always evolving and always changing, and I didn't dip in now, them really. But um, I like the escapism that going to the cinema just gives me as well.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

So yeah, I think that's amazing. Uh it does evolve, doesn't it? And you're right, it's kind of there's certain things that I used to do that I used to immerse myself in that I don't do anymore, and I kind of think, oh, I should do that, but I'll do it when the time's right, you know. I think you kind of water your spiritual garden, whatever you want to call it, in whatever way fits the time, fits the moment, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Yeah, yeah. And it this is the thing, it changes. I mean, when I lived in Dublin, I was super active six days a week. I was going uh running, I was jogging, I was swimming in the sea, I was going to these classes in the gym, and I was just so full on with everything. And like I'm not really doing a lot of that stuff anymore, but I've shifted into different things that are just working with me and where I am and my body now as I'm getting older and stuff, and I have aches and pains everywhere. That could be a whole nother podcast on perimenopausal stuff. Tell me about it. So, but I I'm trusting in my ability to know what works when it works, and letting go of that thing of being hard on myself because you know I can't run anymore like I used to, or I can't do that anymore, or that's okay, you know. Acceptance, right? Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

So, what keeps you hopeful about the future of peer support then?

SPEAKER_00 42:49

I think having conversations with people like yourself, Kate, you know, and meeting other people, like we've only met once before this um podcast, and but even the first time we met, you just we just get it, you know, and I love those um interactions when you meet people, you're on the same page. Someone recently said to me, like heart connected, that they feel heart connected. Yes, and I thought that is just such an amazing um way of phrasing it, you know, that there's this yeah, we're here together, we know what peer support is, we want to tell the world how great it is, we want to share it with others, and yeah, I feel those interactions just keep me going and keep me hopeful for the future of peer support. Because we know it's work, it works. Or what did I say the last time we met that you said at the start of this? This shit works.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

This shit works, absolutely, it does. So if um if someone's listening who maybe kind of just discovered peer support or who's wondering if it's for them, what would you want them to know? So

SPEAKER_00 44:00

I would say it's great meeting people who like I know people that I've supported down the years and they've gone on to train as peers, and that's really great, you know, just to see them get so much out of it and then realise hang on, you know what, I can do this too. And because they can, because you know, what why wouldn't people want to do that, especially if they've got so much out of it themselves? So I would say, in terms of access and peer support, it is very limited in Ireland, which is unfortunate. You know, there's the few peers spread out all over Ireland, as I mentioned, who are on community mental health teams, they're like a rare, you know, a diamond that there's not many in the public services. So, but there is an organization called Better Together, which is a peer-led, peer-run organization, and that's based in Ireland, it's very unique. Um, and they work remotely, but they do have gatherings, I think they're called, but they come together and they have peer meetups. So I would signpost a lot of people to them for peer support because I know um that they are very authentic in their approach and peer support, which is brilliant, they're doing great work, and then the Solace Cafes have peer support as well, so they're around Ireland, and you know, I'm sure there are other peer spaces, but I honestly like there's not many. It's so rare in Ireland, which is sad. And then for people wanting to get in to peer support, have a look at the DCU course, peer support work in mental health, which is a year-long level eight um academic course where you can be trained and guest certified as a peer support worker.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

Is that Dublin Uni?

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Yeah, that's Dublin City University, and the only thing is you mightn't get a job after it, which is the sad thing. But in fairness, people have gone into different roles in different services and different organizations, charity sectors, um, and they're doing peer work, but they're not probably not peer roles, official peer roles, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

Yeah, the thing is there's so much need for it, isn't there? Oh yeah. I find the fact that there's like under 30 peer supporters in the HSE is it? Quite staggering.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Yeah, it's such a pity and a shame because it comes from mental health policy, sharing the vision. Vision for change was out in 2006, and that was all about recovery orientated type approaches and care, and then fast forward to 20 oh I'm gonna say 2015, definitely got that wrong, but that was um or 2018 maybe sharing the vision, which was an update on that policy. So it's in policy, it's in mental health policy, but it's just been slow to take. But then also that fact that I don't think everything was done to keep the peers in the roles. I don't think enough was done, there wasn't enough support there, and that's that's really sad because some really, really great people have left those jobs, and I can remember I was leaving, I was in North Dublin, so I was the only peer support worker in all of Dublin for a long time, which is the biggest populated place in Ireland as well. But we know this because we're so small in a way, and everybody knows everyone in the peer world. But I can remember going to leave that when I I got this post, and I can remember people people saying to me, but you can't leave, there'd be no peer support workers left in that whole area, you know. And it kind of dawned on me and was like, shit, yeah, there's not going to be any peer support workers in all of this huge populated area. No.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

Well, thank you so much for today. It's been an absolute pleasure. You really are an inspiration, you're doing great things, and you are living proof that um people can turn their lives around and that lived experience can be put to uh incredible use in peer spaces. And thank you for telling your story and uh being being with us today.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Well, thanks, Kate, and thanks to you for hosting this space and yeah, just the heart connection that we've had was just really lovely. So thank you for that. And you're doing great work by hosting this podcast and spreading the word, the good word of the peer, as I always say. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 48:27

That's it for this episode of Shoulder to Shoulder. Thanks to Clara for sharing her story. For more support and more stories, head over to with-new.co.uk. And if you're enjoying the conversation, please subscribe to the channel, follow the podcast, and share this with someone who might need it.