Episode 2: Faith, Failures and First Love

What if the stories you hide are the ones shaping you most? This conversation pulls back the curtain on ministry’s unfiltered moments of failure, risk, and the lessons that form healthy leaders. We talk about calling without comparison, surrendering outcomes, and asking the question that keeps us grounded: “Lord, do You take pleasure in this?”

Elisha shares hard-won wisdom from two decades in youth ministry on longevity, clarity, and staying present where God plants you. We get practical about purity, dating, and boundaries, guarding hearts in a culture that rushes intimacy before commitment and learning how to honor Christ with wisdom, patience, and purpose.

We explore hearing God in ordinary places, anchoring faith in decisions rather than feelings, and choosing depth over hype by prioritizing impact over influence and discipleship over viral moments. We look ahead with hope at a church that is younger, deeper, and more missional, willing to grow through healthy correction and safe failure.

We close with stories of healing, making space for the Spirit without performance pressure, and bridging generations so youthful zeal and seasoned wisdom grow together. Through it all, one invitation remains: return to your first love and let everything else flow from there.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who needs courage today, and leave a review so more people can find these conversations. Your voice helps us build for impact, not just influence.

Transcript

Warm Welcome And Banter

SPEAKER_02 0:09

What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the podcast. Today's episode is especially dear to my heart. I've got my brother with me, a man that I love dearly, somebody whose voice has shaped the lives of many people that I know. Pastor Elisha, how are we feeling today?

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Good, man. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. I'm a little uh starstruck would be the wrong point. Here we go. Here we go. No, on on the real. I I mean I dude, I've looked up to you before we even met. So uh thank you. Seriously. Like I know a lot of people blow smoke, but I'm I'm grateful to be here.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

You're a real one. I I've I've loved how you've led your family and how you've um led ministry and done it with integrity. And like, not gonna lie, you've got the coolest hair in ministry. Like and this is the smile. Look at the smile, y'all. Come on. See, that's why I got braces right now. I'm trying to get my smile like that. He inspired me this number. That's nice. Preach form out in Texas. I'm like, yo, that smile right there. I I literally showed my dentist. I'm like, hey, I'm not trying to say I want to be this man. Yeah, yeah. But if you can make me look somewhat like that, I'm being dead serious. Like, true story confession.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Well, I'm not sponsored, but Invisalign will do a lot, bro. So you should see my before and after.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

My dentist would not give me Invisalign. He was like, nah, big dog. He's like, you need more movements. So I'm like, praise God. I love it. But I'm excited. So I got a question. We're just looking today. So we're just gonna go in deep, man. Um, what's one of the biggest or the first time you flopped in ministry? Maybe it was an illustration, maybe it was you know, some something that just did not go the way that you thought it would go.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Um I mean, I got fired from my first full-time position.

Ministry Fails And Lessons

SPEAKER_01 1:45

I don't know if you want to talk about that one. Oh, come on, let's talk about it. Come on, let's uh no, I think what one notable um so I was starting, it was my first Wednesday night at the church I'm currently serving at. I've been at uh at Grace in Houston for going on nine years. Okay. And um it was one of the first messages that I preached, and I had this whole sermon illustration, sledgehammer, cinder blocks, the whole thing, right? And I learned in that moment that you really have to tool through illustrations beforehand with people. For sure. Right. So uh the apex moment was supposed to be that these cinder blocks get built, and with the sledgehammer, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um we're nine years removed, so I can't remember if it was sin or habits or what the deal was, but the illustration was that this hammer, God, right, was gonna bust through whatever. Cool. And um, and so these guys are stacking the blocks. And I realized that students are 10, 15 feet away from these things. And so if I go through these bricks, there are shards in students' eyes. Oh my gosh. So I I would say probably five minutes into the illustration, I'm going, This isn't gonna work. For the next 10, I'm trying to mentally figure out how do I save this. Um, and at that point, students were do they were locked in, they had phones out. I mean, they were waiting. Come on. And and I I came to a moment where I was like, and tonight, you get to choose what you're gonna do with this hammer. It's up to you. So I just put it down and walk away. And you could feel the air let out of the room because no, no brick was being they built this thing. I'm talking it up, and uh yeah, it was a it was a pretty big light now for a lot of people. But I got stories I I've lost a student before. Like I said, I got fired for my first job. Uh so I think we've all got, you know, like ministry blenders.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

One of my craziest ministry blenders, man. I was youth pastor, and first, you know, first time. How old were you? I was 29. So I'm like, you know. You're old enough to know better. Well, you would think, and this is inner city ministry, right? So I'm like, you know, I'm trying to navigate how do I do ministry in life with these kids. So I'm like, you know, I like to do creative games. And so I'm like, all right, well, why don't we just hey, the first group that can successfully touch the ceiling of the gym wins. Wow. But you have to use bodies to do it. Oh my god. Absolutely terrible idea. One kid chipped his tooth, like one kid, two kids got to fights, one kid pulled a gun out. It was like a gun, actual pew pew, like real gun, bro. It was wild. Um yeah, and I was no longer allowed to bring any creative games and said only let these kids play basketball in the gym for a good reason. So yeah, I I learned, man.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

I think people want to know though, how high did they get before they got pretty high?

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Did it? Oh, they got pretty high. I mean, I've got listen, I got school assembly failures like crazy. Like, you know, middle schoolers are those crazy, this that crazy age, like they just want to do anything and everything and try anything and everything. And one of the things during my presentation, um, I like to bring everybody together, like one big, you know, better together, you know, just like in the assembly on a high.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Well, with sixth graders, it just doesn't work. No matter what, I don't care. You can try to coach them the entire time. Um, I had these kids, I'm like, hey guys, we're gonna bring it in. Right when you say bring it in, it was just this massive mosh pit. Kids, yeah, it was just absolutely terrible. Yeah, tiny little sixth graders getting trampled, bodies everywhere, like it was really, really bad. Like that school has never brought me back. But you know what? To the glory of God.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah, yeah. We have to learn somehow.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Legit. I've never done it since. I'm like, you know what? I'm just done doing those. We'll do this.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

How would I know otherwise?

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Exactly. Come on, man. They they say that the mistakes that you make in ministry, you just it's just a lesson learned on what not to do next time. So there isn't a next time for me. But man, I'm excited to get into this episode today. Um, one of the cool things about this episode in particular is there's been so many people that knew that I was gonna have a conversation with you, and I even put a poll on Instagram, and I've already got like six different questions that have come in. No, people they glean from you, you've done so well. Um, not just from a numerical standpoint, but just being faithful to the call, being faithful in ministry. I mean, when's the last time we saw somebody in ministry at one location for nine years?

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

It's just it's a rare thing,

Longevity, Calling, And Comparison

SPEAKER_02 5:58

man. But before we get into any of that and get into some of the questions, I'd love for you just to tell us a little bit of your journey. Where do you come from? Like, why are you the way that you are?

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Yeah, I I come from a broken home, which I think most of the students that we pastor probably do, right? My parents got divorced when I was 13 years old, and the church became kind of my family, my youth pastor. Where did you grow up at? Uh in Las Cruces, New Mexico. New Mexico. Yeah. So when, you know, that verse about um can anything good come from Nazareth? Like that's how I felt. Like this is a place, first of all, most people think New Mexico is is part of Mexico. Like they don't even understand. For sure, for sure, for sure. But it's one of the 50 states. For sure. But um, yeah, I grew up in this place called Las Cruces, New Mexico, and First Assembly of God, grew up a an agey boy in my early teens, but my youth pastor took me under his wing and helped to temper a lot of like wild gifting, you know, and um and so very early on I found purpose in my local church. I found uh my gift being refined in the local church, and um, and about 17 years old, I felt the call into full-time vocational ministry.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

So you grew up in a broken situation and yet you had enough inside of you to know that you need to be plugged into a local church. Did that come from mom? Like what how does how does that happen?

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Because I think it happened accidentally. You know, I had a really good friend and he was plugged in and I saw I saw what I wanted. Yeah, and uh he invited me to youth group just one night, you know, and and our youth group wasn't anything special, like it was a guy with a guitar and then another dude who played the flute, like try trying to make a youth ministry happen like that now, you know. And it was back in the fellowship hall where you had to stack chairs, it was bad. But yeah, you know, God, God met me there, reached me there, and um and the youth ministry over several years it grew, and I I just like I said, I found calling and gifting and purpose there. And yeah, um, and so I answered that call, you know, pretty early on when 17. You said you've you've heard felt the call and then she talked to us about that.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Like, what was that like?

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Yeah, for for several years it was something I wanted to do. My youth pastor always coached, he's like, you know, ministry isn't just something that you do on a whim. You know, you better receive the call. For sure. Because things are gonna get hard, and if you don't have the call, the call is what sustains you for sure. And now being 20, almost 22 years into it, I've come to realize that yeah, that high or low, the call is what you come back to again and again.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Everybody that just heard you say 20 to 22 years, their minds just blew. They're like, there's no way he's over 28 years old. How many times how how often do you hear that?

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Pretty often.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

That's crazy. Like the cool.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

But it's it's just the hair and the clothes. That's all it is. If I took this off, I would look like Mr. Miyagi. I would age 20 years instantly.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

But like, what's like it's cool to remain relevant with the generation that you're trying to reach? Like, how cool. And like, obviously, you don't change who you are, but like you've allowed yourself to adjust and adapt with the times. And I think that that's so so admirable. There's no way I could pull off you know hair like that. Like, I was gonna wear a hat. Nah, I'm being true. I was gonna wear a hat. I'm like, nah, man, he can I know his hair is gonna look good. I'm like, let me get this hair coiled up, man. But so you feel the call, 17 years old in the ministry, like you're you're a young man, brain still frontal lobe is still developing, and yet you feel this divine call of God to go into ministry. Did you know that it was gonna be pastoring, preaching, traveling, or was it just like I'm gonna be involved in church?

SPEAKER_01 9:14

No, I uh it was youth ministry specifically. Okay, you know, and I think one of the one of the unique things about this generation, a lot of times when you talk to a youth, uh a young person, they they feel a sense towards ministry, but they don't have specificity. They're kind of open, like I'll do whatever the Lord wants me to do. I knew very early that youth ministry specifically, and um, and I think one of the things that's allowed me to stay in youth ministry so long is that I was head down in what God had called me to. I wasn't looking, there wasn't like this master

Youth Ministry Specifics And Staying Present

SPEAKER_01 9:43

plan of someday I'm gonna plant or be a senior pastor. It was I knew that God called me to youth ministry, and I haven't really looked up since. And you know, I I believe that for so many people, it's we look to tomorrow and we forget to be faithful with today. And um, I think every every day that you wake up and you're faithful with what God's put in your hands, it allows you to give your best yes, and um and that allows for faithful longevity.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Why do you think it is that we are so future focused instead of like learning how to live in the present? Because we see it all the time. Yeah. Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_01 10:15

I think it's it's a collection of things. I I think that you know you're conditioned to want for more, and and I get that. You know, I I think that especially aspirational people, which I am, you know, I I want to achieve, I want to accomplish, I want to charge the hill. But for people, they don't see how that's possible within the the current uh place where where they are, and so they think they have to go somewhere else and do something, something else. And I think that if you get just a little bit creative, sky's the limit with where you are, you know, and I think until God calls you on to something. So it's that itch for more. Um, it's also the the comparison game. For sure. You know, I was just on IG the other day and Mike Todd celebrated 39 years old, and I'm like, God, I'm 39 and I'm a youth pat like that comparison game. Like this guy's got a global ministry. Yeah, bro. I gotta hurry up and do something.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

He and I got the same birthday too. I'm like, yeah, November 15th. I'm like, bruh, what am I doing with my life?

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Yeah, he had the chain and he had the he had the real, and I was like, what am I doing? Do my students even know my birthday? You know, right? No, but comparison's a real thing. So they have this, I've got that. Um, but then I I also think that this generation they're dreamers, and that's a good thing. For sure. It's not bad to dream. I think God-given dreams are a thing. But when when you can't be faithful with where you are, the dream will never come to fruition. You know, and the promised land was spoken to Moses, but Moses had to take a faithful step like every single day. And um, and so I think that there's been something lost maybe generationally between the the the dreamer and the achiever, for sure, the the faithful daily yes, and also reaching kind of for for the stars, you know. I I don't I don't think God wants us to settle. For sure. He wants for more, he wants a big heaven in that.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

So how do you balance that though? Because you know, there there's a very real tension in that. There's even with reach one, like I care about one. Like if one person's in front of me, I'm gonna give them my everything. Yeah, but God also wants his house full. So how do you, especially in ministry, yeah? And and I know we don't want to be numbers driven, sure, um, because that's not the only determining factor of success. But at the end of the day, we want to reach as many people as possible because we understand the very truth and the power of the gospel. So how do you, you know, solidify that in your own heart to make sure that your everything you're trying to do doesn't come from an impure place?

SPEAKER_01 12:37

I I think it's when the dream is surrendered. So if it's mine, then it's never gonna be enough. You know, but when it when it's his, yeah, um, that's when he can say, Okay, son, too fast, yeah, too much. For sure. Um, this has become unhealthy. And I, you know, I'm I'm a father now, I've got a two-year-old son, and I love when he tries new things. Like he's climbing over, he's jumping, he's and he and myself and his mother are very different. She's like, be safe. And I'm like, no, he needs to do it.

Dating, Boundaries, And Non‑Negotiables

SPEAKER_01 13:12

So I'll push, you know, and I'll and so challenges are important, him reaching and doing, but there is a threshold when it becomes unsafe and dangerous, where I come in and I correct. And I think that too many of us maybe when it's not surrendered or surrendered properly, we don't allow the nudging of our Father, the Holy Spirit to come in and go too much.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Too much, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

And and I think we think that as long as it's growing, it's good. Yeah, but here's the thing if the enemy can't destroy you, he'll distract you. And sometimes things grow too fast and it becomes unhealthy, and people go, No, no, no, more souls, more yes, but if it's become about the thing and not about him, I think that that's where we lose it pretty quick. So for me, it's it's gotta constantly be surrendered. And I'm not saying I do this perfectly, you know, but I I think if there has not been a moment recently where I sit down and go, Lord, are you taking pleasure in this? Yeah, that's problematic.

SPEAKER_03 14:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

And um, I'll share just kind of a quick example. But we we do these outreaches a couple of times a year, and you know, I always had this thing in the back of my head that if we hit this numerical goal, I will finally have arrived. That that 18-year-old kid who was called in full-time for vocational ministry will finally go. We've done it. Yeah, and I'll tell you about five years into being where I'm at, we hit it. And I went home and I just went, that's not it. Okay, and and I was celebrating all that God had done, but there was this emptiness in the chase, and and now it is before and after each one of these outreaches. The the prayer is Lord, take pleasure in what we're about to do. And if you don't, I don't want to do it, which has changed the strategy altogether. You know, so um I I want him I want him to go, yeah, son, I'm proud of that.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Absolutely, not yeah, good.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

You did that on your own.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Yeah, and I think it's so hard in the the culture that we live in to um have numbers celebrated so much, have visibility be celebrated in the social media world that we live in. So I think it's so important that we always keep the main thing the main thing. Yep. And before we were ever on stages, before we ever had microphones, we had his presence. Yeah, and really, and that's what the Lord's been teaching me in this last season. He's like, Man, don't forget what matters most.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

You know, even as you travel, like, hey, it's good. I I've gifted you to do it, but don't forget what matters most. Because at the end of the day, like, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? And I'm like, man, Lord, thank you for, you know, he just lovingly rebukes me in such a great way. And not that I was getting off course, but it's like the reminder. It's so easy, it's a slippery slope. You start doing this and start caring about this, and you find yourself in a position that you never planned to be in. And you know, what I've realized is what we build um outside of the Holy Spirit, we really have to sustain in our own power, in our own effort. And I don't want to build without a man. And I just loved how I've watched you build with the Holy Spirit. Even case in point, I don't want to jump to your story because we'll get there. But um, you felt the call to ministry, you go to college, like you're you're in ministry, you're doing a thing, you meet your wife, talk to us about that.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah, she and I we grew up in the same youth group, so we were high school sweethearts.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Come on, bro.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Come on, somebody for eight years, which I wouldn't recommend to anybody. But when you meet in high school, like that's come on. So we dated for eight years.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Come on, for we okay, we can't gloss over this. Come on, it's a separate episode. This is a man of God, right here. Okay, so he dated, and his wife is incredible. Like, we we got some journals from her that our kids I texted you this week. Our kids are writing prayers. She is a mighty woman of God, man. But you dated the same woman for eight years. Eight years.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

A lot of people date for eight years and they never get on a knee. Just call it what it is.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

What was it that talk to us about that, man? Because there's some young person that a young lady listening to this right now, and she's dating some chump. Let's just call it what it is. Yeah, call it what it is. Yeah, she knows she needs to dump them. This is your sign, dump them. Yes, but what was it about your wife? Talk to us about what that process is like and getting engaged and like, you know, taking that next step. Because eight years is a long time.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

It is, but pretty early on, I had established like we're not dating just to date. Um, this is about marriage for me. And having a conversation like that when you're 18 or 19 and and they're you know, 17, 18, that's that's a dynamic that most people aren't ready to receive. And uh, but she was, you know, and she was there was only one other guy that she had kind of dated. It was for like a couple of weeks in high school.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

He was a trump, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Yeah, oh he was. No, no, no. He was a good dude, probably has kids, I don't know, probably a pastor somewhere for sure. Um, but you know, I was I was very upfront, yeah. And um, and we established some non-negotiables, and there were a couple of seasons where uh we took some time apart. And I went through master's commission. I don't know if you're familiar with it. There's a no dating rule during your first year, so we had to take a break. And she went to master's commission, had to take a break, and um then I'll you guys go at the same time? No, so we were a year apart.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

So you there was two years where you got Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Wow. Yeah. So like we we we got together during summer, okay, and then she would start, and then we were apart. But she ended up going to college in Dallas, and I was youth pastoring in Wisconsin. So for a couple of years, we were in different, completely different states. And we planted a church in Dallas together with um some other people that that we're actually now on staff with. And um, and so we we just we waited, man, and and it was hard, really hard. 99% of the people I wouldn't recommend do what I did. For sure, for sure. Because it it it was difficult. But you know, God breathed on it, and um, here we are with two kids and celebrating 12. We'll go on 13 years this next year. Come on, 13 years, man. We've effectively been together with the dating than we've been apart.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

That's crazy. So I I I just can't gloss over this because there if I get questions from young people, it's dating advice.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

100%.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

I've had two girlfriends my whole life, I married the second one. So like I'm legit. Like,

Purity, Emotional Guardrails, And Culture

SPEAKER_02 19:10

okay, I I had two girlfriends my entire life, and um, the first one was a mistake, and then I met my wife and I knew that I was gonna be with her forever. But the value in having because here's the thing, I'm just gonna be honest, we're seeing a lot of men that don't know how to be men, sure and don't know how to man up and don't know how to pursue women, don't know how to respect women, don't know how to honor women. What was it in you that made you want to embody that in such a way that led is led to a successful marriage? Because like I want the young people, the young men that listen to this, that glean from this podcast, I want them to glean from the wisdom that you carry because you did it the right way. A wise man learned from his own mistakes, a wiser man learned from the mistakes of others. So, what are some things that you would tell a young person that's trying to pursue a young lady? Because we got a live studio audience right now, too, and we got some single men in this room. So I hope they got their notepads out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Uh uh, go ahead. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you said it, you use the word pursuit, and and it is a pursuit. I think that people pursue to the point where they get and then they're done pursuing. Like pursuit is something that doesn't stop. Whether you're dating or married, pursuit continues. You know, and establishing those non-negotiables early on is very important. If you're not, you know, that line gets blurry. And I'll just be truthfully honest, like young adults, hormones are just it's wild. Raging, you know, and we were we were biologically wired to procreate at a certain age, and so like if if those things aren't established early on, you know, you will it doesn't matter if she is or you aren't, like you've got to have something that you both as a couple can go back to and go, no, no, this is what we said, and we're not we're not skirting the line, you know. Um, the other thing is like we had really good examples of healthy marriages and relationships in our life. That's true. Not everybody does. So for me to go, yeah, just man up and do the thing is kind of unfair if you don't have an example of what to look to. Absolutely. And we were blessed pretty early on to have some people that we went, that's the kind of marriage that we want to have. And some of those people are still in our lives, and those people are still married. So I think when you've got a good example to look to, you know, it it makes it infinitely easier.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Um, but the uh the other thing is if Christ isn't at the center of the relationship, you know, this this thing will waver pretty quick. And um, most most high schoolers specifically, when when I'm talking to them and they're in a dating relationship, like show me their walk with Christ. Yeah. And probably you can't be the reason why they're walking with Christ. Because if you are, once you get in a fight or once codependency, you know, yeah, exactly. Codependency. And and I think that a lot of people they they are each other's lifeline to Christ. And man, it's just it's so unhealthy. I think even in marriage, each one of us have to have our own relationship with Christ as we have a relationship with Christ together. Absolutely. And um, and I think that that's the only way to do it. But we could talk a lot of different things for her and I, though, it was it was those non-negotiables. It was we got some.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Give us three of your non-negotiables that you got, or just a couple of them that were non-negotiables for you, and maybe some non-negotiables for her, just so the young people can have some context of like, hey man, maybe this is something that I should should add on my list.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yeah, big one, no sex before marriage. Come on. I mean, we we were just very adamant about that. And I know that nowadays, like moral as generations go, morality kind of loosens. Yeah, but yeah, no sex before marriage was was a huge one. Um, even the way that we would talk, um, physical boundaries, like we, you know, we weren't gonna do um more than what we had agreed that we weren't gonna do, you know. And so I think that some people are like, as long as it's not penetration that we're we're good and sex starts in the heart before it you know ends up in hands. And so that's true, you know, you you gotta cue some of those things up, but um being alone in certain specific environments, nothing good happens after 9 p.m., young people, like Netflix and chill.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

No, that is not not for the Christian. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

That's exactly right. And as we got older and became more adult, sure, some of those things, it was like, okay, do we still need to do this? And and yeah, those things were still in place, you know. It's like you don't nap together, you don't sleep together, you don't like make out sessions and all these. It we we understood that it it leads somewhere, yeah, you know, and so

Marriage, Transition, And Hearing God

SPEAKER_01 23:31

I I think that for us uh having those non-negotiables were were important, and um, you know, I I had a past, she didn't, and I think that it probably helped a little bit more because I understood like this this is a real weakness, and I gotta get some things straight and right. Come on. And um and the faith thing was a big component as well. You have your walk, I have my walk. We we're not we there will be times where we come together and we we should talk about the things of God, but um, you are not my lifeline to him. You know, he and I are, and you and he are.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

So what a healthy way to start a relationship with somebody, man, that you know you guys have an understanding, especially a faith-based relationship, because sometimes as Christian couples, man, one of the hardest things to do is to remain pure. And I would just say to anybody that sees this, you know, if you've messed up, it's okay. You can't go in the past, you can't time travel, but you can start to set standards now, moving forward and honoring God. Like He you've not made you know too many mistakes that aren't beyond the grace and redemptive work of Christ. It's about submitting to him and allowing him to conform me into the image of his son. So uh anybody that listens to this, and maybe you've made mistakes and you got a past, like we both have past, like allow the Lord to purify that, and I believe that he will honor that. It's so good that you know, having those non-negotiables because there's a lot of young people, and I've realized in society we're desensitized to so much. We look at television, we look at Instagram, we look at all these different things that are descent, it's the enemy's way of desensitizing the Christian so that way we start making those subtle mistakes, those small foxes, and then we find ourselves in compromising situations, and now we're making a uh, you know, a temporary lapse of judgment, and we're doing something that man may be irreversible. Like I was a mistake, my mom and dad were all one nice hand. Like, I'm glad I'm here. But like that shouldn't be the truth of what God wants to do, especially when he brings man and woman together.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Yeah, I I heard my pastor say it earlier this week. He said that you know, few people slip suddenly. Yeah, you know, they they drift casually. And so even in relationships, it's it's little by little, decision by decision, that we we veer, you know, you don't just both end up in bed naked together. Right. You know, it's we're talking about that, we're texting this. Come on. And and and back in our day, Marcus, there we weren't texting. Come on, you know, we weren't texting. Like you had to it talk if you were gonna talk about it, you were gonna talk about it. Legit. Or like write a note. Will you do yeah, yeah, yeah. But now it's like we have the anonymity of the screen, and we can hide behind the screen and we could we can slide into DMs or we can text late at night. And um, you know, relationships progress so much quicker because of technology. I I'm a big advid proponent of technology use technology, but yeah I think because of the pace of relationships that they move so much quicker now. It's so much easier to get to physical and emotional intimacy and end up wrecking your life. But at the end of the day, we don't we don't fall in a moment. You know, it's this casual view, you know.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Absolutely. And I think what what's so important um is and I and I've realized this, you talked about emotional intimacy. Yeah, that is so big because young people that they're dating, you got two young people, they're madly in love. We've seen the look, we've seen the face, they love each other, and I believe it's genuine. They're not dating, you know, just to date, they're dating with intention, but emotional, that emotional connection before that person is your wife. How do you guard from that? Because I this is my thing, like, feel free to to disagree, but young people who are dating, intimately digging into the word together, like I'm just against that because you develop this spiritual connection, and I'm like, man, wait a minute, like that's supposed to be reserved for your husband or your wife. So talk a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Yeah, when when you're in that agape love forum, Eros love, which is sexual or physical love and kind of the spiritual love, um, those things were designed to walk together in the sanctity of marriage. Yeah, cool. And uh, what does Song of Solomon say? It says uh not to awaken love before it's time, before it's time, yeah. And I think that that's why it's so easy to make physical compromises because we've awakened something on a heart level, and scripture's very clear, you know, guard your heart above all else, you know, it's the wellspring of life, everything that you do flows from it. And and so when a when a guy knows how to tap into a girl's heart, yeah, it's not long before physically he can get what he wants.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Big time.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

And um and I think some guys they they know that and they manipulate that, which is why my conversation to most girls is protect your heart. And going back to this non-negotiable that Melissa and I had about no,

From Church Plant To Big Church

SPEAKER_01 28:14

you have your walk with Christ, and I have my walk with Christ, because I understood that these things bleed together. And um, you know, when scripture says that sex is about more than sex, I think this is the message version, but it's it's about more than just flesh on flesh. You know, it is a it's a spirit tying, you know, together. And so I think that God wires things in such a way that are reserved for marriage that you can't awaken before marriage and it makes it so much easier to slip or to compromise. And that protection of heart is to go back to non-negotiables. This is the line we're not gonna cross. Yeah, you know, we're not going to we're not gonna have a prayer Bible study in my home alone. Come on, man. You know what I mean? Or or this is another one. It's just not wise. No, yeah. This is another fun one when couples are worshiping in youth group together, like hand in hand, and like me and my wife don't even really do that a time. Which which is fine. Like, if you're a couple, like do it for sure. But it it's so funny at at camps, even to see like the dude'll be there to hug the girl who's like sobbing in the altar. It's like, no, get away, get get out, leave. You know what I mean? But yes, you're you're right about that. Oh my goodness. The the emotional intimacy and spiritual intimacy, like those things are are so close, and I think it's dangerous when you start mixing the two for sure. Absolutely, man.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

I um I think what's so important, man, for for any young person that watches this or or hears this, this isn't like an indictment against your character, it's an invitation to walk in purity. That's great. And purity culture is something that's not preached enough, and it's not it's not sexy. Sure, no one wants to deny their flesh, but man, when you do that, especially prior to getting married, God blesses it. He blesses it. My wife and I, man. We, you know, we I'm thankful that I was playing professional football when we were engaged. Because man, I mean you were busy. But I was I had to get up out of the state, man. It was the struggle was real. Yeah, okay. But I I just love how you and your wife had those those boundaries. You guys honored that. You've been married almost 13 years. And so, as you guys are married, what what is life like in that season? Like you're you know, youth pastoring, killing it, crushing it, living in Texas at the time.

SPEAKER_03 30:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

In Dallas.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

When do you transition from Dallas to where you're at now?

SPEAKER_01 30:31

We were at that church plant for seven and a half, almost eight years. Yeah. And um, hardest thing that we've ever done. Yeah. Hardest thing that we've ever done. Um, butt kick. And we we had transitioned senior leadership. And so we were about a year before we transitioned, we were wrestling, God, do we stay or do we go? Yeah. And um, and I I got to a place with God where I was like, I have to hear from you. Like it has to be direct from you, not this sideways, I think, kind of quasi-fleece moment. I need to hear from you. And I remember taking our students to a youth camp that

Failure, Grace, And The Call

SPEAKER_01 31:06

summer, and I said, regardless of altar call, I as a youth pastor are gonna be the first one in the altar. Does not does not even matter what the what the altar call, like so night one, like for salvation, like bingo. Here I'm gonna go. That's how desperate I was, man. I just I didn't care. And so night one, it was salvation altar call and uh center stage. I'm down there and I'm responding, and I'm like, God, I need something. And it was a very clear from the speaker, and there was probably a thousand people in the auditorium, and um, he gives me a real prophetic word, and and on that we we ended up moving and going and uh coming to where we are now. But man, I wrestled so much with God. I didn't I didn't want to follow a man, I didn't want to go because it was convenient, it wasn't about money or opportunity. Like I needed to make sure that our next move was what God wanted. For sure. And too many people, I think, opportunity chase, and I just didn't want that, man.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

How do you hear how do you hear God's voice the most? Like, does he speak to you in a particular kind of way? Because there's a lot of young people, man, they're they're trying to discern the voice of God and the voice of themselves. And so they're they're in a situation, maybe they're trying to pick a college, or maybe they're already out of college, maybe they're an older, you know, young married couple and they're discerning like how do they make the decisions to follow the voice of God? How does that work for you?

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Uh, I think for me, his word, uh at least in this last season, has become the most prevalent way that he speaks. And um several years ago I got really serious where like reading cover to cover, and this comes a lot of different ways, but cover to cover was going to be a discipline that I was gonna do. And um, and so there's seldom a day where I don't receive something from God. But I I think I would be naive if if I didn't say that there were a handful of times in my life where it was a thus saith the Lord. Yeah, yeah. You know, there there are moments where you're like, I need a specific answer, and then there are times where God just kind of speaks what you need. For sure. And so sometimes God will speak the thing. Come on. And a lot of times God is just speaking, and it's like I gotta tune in to listen. Um and so I think too many people are looking for like a thus saith the Lord. Yeah, and um, he doesn't do that that often in scripture. Yeah, you know, Moses was on a mountain getting the Ten Commandments for sure, you know, that one time, yeah, legit. And and so if we're looking for like mountain Moses moments, good luck. You know, but there will be times where God shows up and it's like this specific, thus saith the Lord. Um, but uh one of the fun things that I do, I've actually got something in my phone, it's uh prophetic words. So when people give them and speak them, I archive them there and I'll visit them often. Well, so good. Um, but I I think on a daily, yeah, his word is speaking to me constantly.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

He speaks to the most what we would call mundane things. I feel like the Lord speaks to me the most, man, when I'm just taking care of my kids. Like when I'm just hanging out with my six-year-old and she's running around going crazy. Shout out to Dakota, like she's a firecracker, so is Avery. And he just speaks to me when I'm parenting them in such a beautiful way, in such a loving way, because he gives me his heart for them. And I'm like, man, I I can get so busy trying to do this or go here or do that. And he's like, man, like learn to be present. You had talked about that earlier, being present in the moments that matter most, man. So I just honor you, man, for living that out in real time. And so you guys are in ministry, you guys are killing it. You moved to you moved to Houston, you're you're pastoring, you're doing your thing. Um, what has that transition been like for you guys? Because that's where you guys are at now, right? Yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Correct. We we went from a church plant, so that means you know, no building, no budget. Yeah, build from the ground up, you know, to a place. Well, I I I really believe that if you want to go into ministry, you spend you should spend at least a year in a church plant. Come on. Like that'll weed out 75% of the people that shouldn't be in ministry. You know what I mean? But that's a different podcast. Uh come on. So we go from like nothing, grind, hustle, two jobs. Like I had two jobs, Melissa had two jobs just to make like ends meet, right? To a place where we have a budget, we have staff. Um the the ministry was a real mess when we got there. So it wasn't like we just walked through this magic door and everything was perfect. We're still dealing with stuff. For sure. But all of the things that God taught us, it's that pasture, you know, David in the pasture, so that he can sit on the throne kind of thing. Um so when we transitioned, it was like we didn't understand how much we were learning where we were that translates to where we are now. And there have been some new things that we had had to learn, some new dynamics, big church, you know, dynamics and things like that. But um, I I really am grateful for leadership that's allowed us opportunity to uh to try and sometimes to fail. Um, and leadership who gets behind everything that we're doing. But yeah, that that transition, it it feels the first year it felt like wearing your dad's coat. You know, it's like it I don't know if I'm supposed to be here, sure. But you grow into it.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Absolutely, you know. So with you, with you stepping into ministry and stepping into a new ministry, prior to that, there was probably a lot of wins and a lot of losses. Yeah, right. You've probably made more mistakes than you probably made good decisions, especially early on in ministry. What is it about making mistakes in ministry? In life. Yeah. Let's just say life is ministry. Like, what is

Influence Versus Impact

SPEAKER_02 36:22

it about the mistakes that teach you the most about Jesus? Because I feel like I've learned more about the things that I've done poorly than anything that I've done that was successful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

I mean, I think it teaches you grace. You know, he did what's the scripture? The the gifting and the calling of God is irrevocable without repentance. And so I made a mistake as a youth pastor. Does that mean that I'm disqualified from ministry? No, he still has grace, you know. And so when it talks about his mercies are renewed daily, that's not just for um the non-ministry believer, you know, that's for the pastor too. Our bar is set higher than it should be, for sure. But um, I think the thing that it teaches me is grace. The other thing that it teaches me is how much I have to rely on him. Because on my best day, it's not good enough for what he's called me to do. Yeah, and I I have to remember that if he's not breathing on it, strengthening it, filling my cup, bro, I this thing won't go. For sure. Um, I think of the scripture that says, unless the Lord builds the house, the laborers labor in vain. And so I think it teaches me that I have to co-labor. I'm a co-laborer with Christ, co-heir with Christ. And um and so I those failures teach me time and again, like, yeah, son, I chose you for this. And here's the wild thing. This is what I've been chewing on for probably five or six years. He knew that I was going to, and he still called me. So he knew that Peter would deny him, but he also knew about Pentecost. Yeah, you know what I mean? He knew that Peter would draw the sword and and slash the ear of an individual, but he still chose Peter. Get thee behind me. Still called and chose Peter. And I I'm grateful that Peter messed up a bunch, so now I have an example to go. At least I didn't chop off somebody's ear. Right, right. You know what I mean? I may have lost a kid, but I didn't I didn't try to kill somebody. So I I think it shows me about it shows me about his grace, it shows me about his uh irrevocable love, and um that at the end of the day, man, I'm I'm a flawed individual, but he chose he chose me for it. That that hit me hard, bro.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Like a tear almost came out when you just talk about like he knew, like he knew, yet he still chose us.

unknown 38:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

Crazy.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

And that'll humble you, right? It'll make you want to do it right. Like he chose me.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

And I just to think about a God in heaven who looked down the quarter of the time, saw us, saw this moment, like knew that we would connect and do ministry together in life, and yet knew the mistakes that we would make, and yet he still chose us and created space for us to fail and was there in the midst of the failure. I I didn't understand that growing up because my dad wasn't there. And so knowing that like I'm not identified, or I don't get my identity from my failures. Yeah, I don't get my identity from my wins, like that is it's what I do, it's not who I am. And I had I've had to like really drill that into my heart because as a former football player, it was always produce, produce, produce. And something you just say just hit me hard, man. Like, man, it he still chose us. And for the person listening to this that have you know tried to disqualify yourself or think that you've made so many mistakes that God can't use you. There are some mistakes that you've made that there are ramifications of our sin. We can't just dismiss it and put this overarching theme of grace. Like, we there's price to pay, there's consequences. God's love doesn't mean absence of justice, but his love is still present. Wow, his love is still very much present and his mercies are new. He's not looking at me saying, Hey man, you were an addict nine years ago. Even though some people will still identify me. The old me, and it's just so cool, man. So, how have you in the times in which you've made mistakes? And now I'm gonna get to some of these questions, man, because like they're I've got like 30 questions that have come in in the last 45 minutes. It's rapid fire, yeah. We're just gonna go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But how have you, in the midst of the mistakes that you've made, how have you remained faithful to the call? Because it's so easy, man, like to you know, sin, cover up, and hide, like that's just the nature of Genesis 3. So, how have you allowed yourself in ministry in being a parent? I mean, there's times where I failed as a dad. Yeah, I remember one time I whooped my daughter and like I didn't like whoop her too hard, but I whooped her to a point where you know it's just was like, dang, I shouldn't have done that. This was like five years ago, and it broke me. Like I wept. Yeah, and and I haven't whooped her since, but like, how have you made some of those mistakes in life, in ministry, and still continue to press into the Lord?

SPEAKER_01 40:54

I mean, I spoke about how I kind of have this achievement thing inside of me, and um just to maybe show a little bit of the humanity, like it there is a very real fearful thought of trying to do anything else in life. Like, I I really do believe that God built me to

Hearing God And Making Space

SPEAKER_01 41:16

do this, and so you know, I I think that sometimes we we give fear a little bit of a bad rap, but there's something in me that goes, if I don't do this, what else am I gonna do? You know, I I think that I could maybe see some success, but I don't I don't my fulfillment comes from God, so I want to get that out because some people are gonna go, no, no, no, you don't get your fulfillment from what you do, you get it from who he is. And and yes, but I also know what it is to be built for something specific and then to not be able to do that. So there's there's a very real fear in me that if I don't do this right, I don't get to do this. And um and so some of that kind of keeps me in line, right? And now that I'm a father and I'm a husband, it's not just about me anymore. It's one of my biggest fears about having children was I don't want to create a human who does not love the Lord and hates the church. It's one of my biggest fears. And even to articulate that like is is is heart-wrenching. I want my kids to love the Lord and to love the church. And right now, um, they're young enough that life hasn't fully you know hit them. Um and they and they do, they love the church. Every time we talk about going to church, it's like I I want to go, I want to be there. Um my little girl sat front row with me just this last service, and she's taking notes, she's opening the Bible, she's praying, she lifts her hands in worship, and it's a beautiful thing to see them come into their faith. But um there are these fears in me that keep me in line. Um but I also I think about kind of the flip side of that is if I don't do this, if I'm not faithful to the call, who misses out on what God put in me to give away? What student doesn't get to receive? And I know that he can use anything, so it's not like Elisha's so special, but I just I think that he calls us for specific things and times and shapes. He's the potter, we're the clay. He uses us for for purpose. And um and so for me, I I keep going back to I I gotta be faithful to what he's put in my hands, and if I'm not, uh he will raise up another. But and I don't ever want, I don't ever want somebody, I don't want my life to be the reason why somebody can't receive Christ. Come on, bro.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

And the weight that comes with that, like yeah, uh just hits me. Like the weight that comes with us saying yes to Jesus, we're called to lead people to Christ. Everyone on this earth, you are called to be a witness of Christ. And you just talk about your kids, man. Like that, that's like my deepest heart cry. Like more than any success in ministry. I want my daughters to know the Lord because I didn't have parents that really made that an emphasis, man. And I I just love how you know I even sent you a picture of like one of my daughters' prayers, like you know, at nine years old, you know, just praying, talking to God like on her own. No one prompted her, drew across a picture, and that that's what defines our success. Yeah, you're right. Like we can fill a room with people that encounter the Lord and like God blesses that and he loves it. But at the end of the day, the children that we brought into this world for them to know him, and like I know your kids, I've been around your kids, I I've hung out with your kids and and watching their fire for Jesus, and just your daughter is so special. Like, I just love how you parent, man, and how you and your wife, you know, you're not perfect parents, man, but you serve a perfect God and he's leading you to lead your family well. Man, I I stink and honor you for that, bro.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Like, uh I think if there's anything our generation, you know, us millennials are getting right, it's that we've finally struck some semblance of maybe not balance, but rhythm of appropriate parenthood. For sure.

The Church In 2026: Depth And Discipleship

SPEAKER_01 45:15

And big ministry. Come on. And not big like numerically, but yeah, we can still fill heaven and we can still hold our children. Come on, bro. And I don't have to sacrifice. You don't, bro. I'm grateful that we had spiritual giants that went before us that that do things still like we do ministry in a building where I'm like, who this is irresponsible, what we're doing. Like, whoever built this, it makes no sense. Come on. So I'm thankful for spiritual giants, but something clicked, I think, in our generation where it was like, we're not sacrificing our family.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

For sure. Well, and I think we've we've seen, you know, maybe some of the older leaders that didn't get it right, and it was so public. And so that public, like, they put this fear in us where I'm like, and we've seen people that aren't too maybe 10 years older than this, some of them younger than that, where they've made just catastrophic mistakes, and there's this fear in me where like I want to live above reproach. I want to tell them myself often. I want to make sure that even for me with the struggle of looking at inappropriate material, I got covenant eye, everything. I just want to put these safeguards because I understand that I'm just a man. I'm I understand this flesh is real. I don't want to act like I'm holier than thou. I understand that God is a redeemer, He's redeemed me, He's restored me, but I don't ever want to give place to the enemy to trick me in the ways he used to. And I think that's for anybody, man. You know, put yourself in a position where you can actually resist the devil. There you go. Bible says, resist the devil. Yep, he will flee from you. Resisting the devil is all about willpower. Like God has given us willpower. We can say yes, or we can say no. The devil is not making you pick that blood up, the devil is not making you slide into her DMs, slide into the bed. It's just not, that's not how life is. But um, in in the same token, Jesus has given us that free will, and it says, then draw near to God. I can't just resist the devil and change my behavior. No, no, no. Jesus wants to change the heart. Yeah, we focus so much on the behavior modification, but when you draw near to God, he draws near to you, and we have to you know purify our hands and cleanse our hearts, man. And I just think it's so important for this generation to get that. Yeah, like get it now. Yeah, because we're on the cusp of man, and we say we we've heard it said a lot that Gen Z and Gen Alpha Man, they're a unique, they're a unique people. They I think they're really getting this purity thing. I really do. I think they're getting it in ways that I my gener, I mean people that I grew up with didn't get. And um, I'm loving how they're grabbing a hold of it younger and younger and younger. I was a camp with you. I'm looking at your students like that are just hungry for the Lord, that are pressing into the things of God. That's why the culture we set as leaders is so important, man. So again, I honor you for that, bro. So good.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

It's beautiful what's taking place in generations now. It's it's almost like the darker it gets, the brighter you know, Christ shines. And and I think that you know, when we grew up, it was weird to go to church, and now it's it's kind of cool. Yeah, right? Come on. You know, it was if you took I remember going to my high school and carrying my Bible and just going, Oh my gosh, what are people gonna think? And now students are proudly like posting Bible studies that they're having at lunch tables.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

At lunch tables, man.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

So the the generation like they're waking up, and it's beautiful that we're getting to pastor in this moment.

unknown 48:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Um, because I don't know the next time we get to see what we're seeing. For sure. But God's doing something, and and I can't wait to see the fruition of this. I think we're just in the beginning, but it's it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Praying to the Lord, the harvest is sent out laborers, and we're raising those laborers up. Like we're raising, we're getting a chance. Like it's it's what Moses never got to see. Like he, you know, and and I I thought about this. Moses actually did and step into the promised land. Remember on the Mount of Transfiguration. But prior to that, you know, he built something to pass a baton. Yeah. And like, man, can I do that faithfully in my life? Yeah, can can the ministry God has called me to steward and build? Can I build it to the point where I never actually see it at its peak? Can I do that joyfully?

SPEAKER_00 49:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Because if I can, then that means I'm building something that's about him and it's not about me. And that's just a wrestle that I just make sure that I I'm like, man, this it ain't about me. It's not about me and it never will be, man. Come on, bro. Let's get to some of these questions. Okay, let's do it. Because there's there's there's a lot, man. This is the man, I don't even know where to start. Okay, let's go. Um what's the difference between influence and impact in your eyes?

SPEAKER_01 49:36

Influence and impact. That's a great question. Um I think you can influence a lot of people to do a lot of things. Dress, talk, act, believe. I think impact is is long lasting. Influence is is short term. You know, it's the difference between motivation and discipline. Motivation is a shot in the arm. You see a TikTok and you're like, I gotta go to the gym. Discipline is when I'm six months in and I'm seeing you know transformation. Come on. And I think influence and impact is is exactly that. Absolutely. You know, and I a lot of people can be influenced in a moment, yeah, but impact is is long lasting.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

Longevity. Come on, bro. That's so good. Because I think there's there is this um persona on social media that they've got influence. Just because you have a lot of eyes on you, sure, doesn't necessarily mean you have the impact that you think you have. Just because they see you or you go viral, do not confuse the algorithm with the anointing. The anointing destroys jokes. And the listen, that praise God. I want your social everything, bro. Let it be a reflection, let it be a shadow of who you are. But influence, it's not bad. It's not inherently bad. It's God, God uses that. But impact comes from longevity, it comes from consistency. Like I can be motivated for a moment to go to the gym. It's the beginning of the year. Everybody and their mama, the gyms are packed. Yep. But if I really want to have impact in my life, I gotta remain consistent in the like you just said, consistency is everything. That's so that's so good because there's a generation, and speak to this for a little bit. There's a generation man that just wants influence, they don't really care about impact. Sure. They don't see the value in impact because they haven't been around that long. So why do you think that is, and what would you say to somebody that has that thought?

SPEAKER_01 51:21

You know, we we we chase uh highs and not always in a rolled up, you know, or or in a bottle.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

I'd say some highs now. Boy, I was high as a cup.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Well, we we chase we chase the this stimulation of what that new next thing brings us. You know, and we have this um on a chemical level, it's uh it's a need for constant dopamine hits. It's become the new drug. That's why we just endlessly scroll, right? Um but then on a spiritual level,

Building Healthy Leaders And Standards

SPEAKER_01 51:57

you know, they're seeking fulfillment. Yeah. And when you don't know that it's Christ, you're gonna chase every trend, everything, you know, and so influence has become kind of the cheap uh replacement. For sure. It it has become the bastardization, if that's okay to say on this age appropriate podcast. Oh yeah, say it.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Bastardization, bastardization, say it.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Any anytime the the enemy always wants to give a counterfeit to anything that God creates. And I think that influence is a counterfeit to impact. And and I don't want to totally demonize influence because people influenced us. So I it's not like influence is is bad and impact is great, but I think you know, on a certain level, if all we're doing is trying to influence and not impact, like discipleship will impact people, a service will influence somebody.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

For sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

And come on, man. You know, Rome, Rome had influence, but Jesus brought impact. Come on, bro. You know, like now we go to Rome to see the sites. They're they're not a global superpower, but the gospel is still reaching far and wide. Come on. Billions and billions of people are saved. So I think that when when we're chasing influence, like it's never gonna fulfill, it's never gonna be enough. But when we give our life towards impact, there's something that at the end of our life we go, that yeah, that made a difference. That made a difference. How many of these influencers are you and I going to be talking about in even two years? They're talking that trends are actually it's no longer trends, it's micro trends. Yep, you know, it's becoming smaller and faster. Smaller and faster. You cannot keep up. You can't sustain it, it's unsustainable. People will know your name today, they will not tomorrow. For sure. But when you're given towards impact, well, isn't that what Jesus did though?

SPEAKER_02 53:36

Like Jesus took 12 minutes and says, you know what, I'm gonna do life with you on a consistent basis, and I'm going to impact you not just on a surface level, but on a heart level, because when you go from the brain to the heart, true transformation takes place. And so, and for anybody that's looking at this, we're not, yeah, like you said, we're not demonizing influence. Influence is important. Sure. Influence should point you to the truth, it should point you to Jesus. But true impact is going to come by taking time, going low, going slow. And um, I just watched that in the life of Jesus. And I've had to learn that, especially in the last two to three years. Like more than me wanting to reach, you know, we we spoke to a lot of people this year. Like, at the end of it, it didn't really matter to me. Some people think I'm crazy for saying that, but at the end of the day, what matters most, and this is something that we've um made a priority in our lives and ministry, I will not minister somewhere where there's not a relationship because I don't want to just influence for a moment. I want to be deeply embedded so that we can impact for longevity's sake. I can't wait to connect with students from last summer and see how they're doing and how's he know how's old boy that was struggling with that drug addiction? Is he still walking free? Things like that, because that's what really matters most, man. So I appreciate your wisdom on that. The next question we have, um, and they got some they got some doozies. I mean, some of them are, yeah, they're uh so we'll we'll just go we'll go with this list. So, what methods do you use to be able to sit still in the presence of God so you can hear his will?

SPEAKER_01 55:03

Uh I mean you gotta build, it's back to what we were just talking about, you gotta build disciplines, you know, and so uh whether it's morning, evening, afternoon, all three of those, like you gotta build, you gotta build space in your day. That's good. Uh I think that God speaks when you give him room to speak. You know, there are there are times where he'll knock you off your horse on the way to martyring Christians, but by and large, when you make room for him, for sure, for sure, you know, he's he's gonna speak. So I I think for me it's become about a daily discipline of where am I gonna make room. Um I also know God shows up in some really weird places uh for whatever reason, like shower, yeah, like in the shower, the gym, a lot of times.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

Isn't it interesting that God shows up? I mean, there's probably so many people that resonated with that. Sure. God shows up in the shower. I believe he shows up in the shower on the toilet the most because that's when we're the most like we're the most vulnerable. Personally, I'm like, I'm naked, I'm like yeah, quiet, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

Like you just you're not scrolling on your phone in the shower. Yep. I mean, some people are, but they shouldn't be. Right, right. For sure. But yeah, the places where noise is the quietest. For sure. I think that's why Jesus went away to be alone with the Father. You know, we we gotta get silent. So for me, it's it's about the daily discipline and rhythms of getting silent. There was a season where I'd go in my backyard, kids were put to bed, wife was doing her own thing, I'd go in the backyard. Um, Houston's a loud city. Yeah and so this was a place where I get quiet with God. And um, and so I think you gotta find those places, and everybody's life and pace is different. So you can't not everybody can carve out two and a half, three hours. You know, you're this monk in some cave somewhere, but for sure. I think that God can meet you in the hustle and the bustle when you make time and space for him.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

Because we always have time for what's first, like we always have time for what's first, and God wants to be invited into every aspect of our lives. It's been said that man, you need to put Jesus at the center. No, you need to put Jesus in every nook and cranny and aspect of your life because when you do that successfully, then you walk with another level of communion with them. And I began to invite, I invite him into everything. That's great.

Gifts Of The Spirit And Miracles

SPEAKER_01 57:08

That's a new one. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

Like, I really like, come on, listen, you know what? Hey, because that's that's my love language. And it's like, what a great way to tell people that you love them, but then to cook for them. Right him into when I'm playing video games with the homies online. Like, I want to it's it sounds crazy.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

Lord bless this 2K right now.

SPEAKER_02 57:23

Lord bless this 2K because I was spanking somebody the other day. Uh-huh. But I I just think he wants to be invited into those spaces. There's nothing about your life that is obsolete or that Jesus doesn't care about. He wants to be in every aspect of your life, and he wants to bring purity to every aspect of your life. He wants to be purity to the times when you're listening to music that you know is not life-giving. Uh-oh, I'm talking to somebody right now. There's music that we listen to that we consume that is not life-giving. So allow the Lord to sanctify your ears and sanctify your eyes, bro. Come on. Yeah, next question we got, man. Um, what do you foresee or what are your predictions for the church in 2026? And I think this is a good question because you are you work in the context of a local church. There's some people like one thing I'll never do is I'm never gonna dog the church. It's the one thing that will never end. Like, like, hello, like some people that just build ministries off bashing the church, but man, the church was alive and active. Yeah, but that's another podcast for another day. But what do you foresee? What are your predictions for the church in 2026 and beyond? And what does a person in ministry need to do proactively based on what you see happening?

SPEAKER_01 58:28

It's like a 12-part question, man. For sure. You know, it's funny because a week ago, I actually I'm I don't use chat, but maybe once a month. And I'm not that guy who's like tech is evil, you know. I just I think that sometimes we we can shortchange ourselves long term by using these shortcuts, and I feel like chat is one of those. But just out of curiosity, I fed chat a question. I was like, what does church look like in the next 10 years? And what it spit out was Chat's not a prophet, okay, but I think that there were some really uh spot-on observations, and um you know, it talked about church being more missional, and I think that that's right on that you know, when it talks about building disciples, uh I think that that's exactly what we got to major on. You know, it's we should create experiences. I'm a big experience guy, love experiences. I I a handful of experiences have shaped my life. But if all we're doing is building services to be experiential and not developmental, we're not creating spaces to build people long term um for their schools, for their workplaces, in their families, you know, we're we're missing it. Um it also talked about how church would become deeper, not just wider. Um, and and I think that that's spot on. I think that people are hungry. It's crazy because students will come to me now with these questions that make me think. Yeah. And and 10 years ago it was just like Why is sex bad? Or how much can I do without it being a sin? You know, this real surface stuff. But now, you know, I've got people asking me, you know, why why did the prophet Elijah experience this and how does that relate to that? And I'm like, I gotta go study. I gotta get out my logos, you know, I gotta, which is good. Which is good because they they're hungry and um they they want depth.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

And they can handle the deep things of God.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:23

I just was talking to my Jay pastor about this. I said, Don't you dare sacrifice depth. I said, Jesus preached the deepest spiritual truths to unlearned people. We can do it. We should not sacrifice depth. But the the dynamic that's different now is they're hungry for depth. So I'm not having to shove depth down their throat. They're come they're coming looking for it. So um, yeah, the church will will be missional, it'll be deeper, uh, it'll be discipleship focused. Um, I think that we're we're gonna start to see people doing ministry a lot uh younger and um and and maybe even a little bit more decentralized, which actually scares me. Yeah, I I think that there part of it is that's good, yeah. But then this this other part that there's not oversight or pastoral or discipleship help, it's like I want to empower the younger generation. For sure. But if there isn't someone going, no, no, no, son.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:21

For sure. Come on, Jethro, come on. There you go. Yeah, Moses, what you're doing is not a good thing. Like we need those. It's it's the biblical model that Jesus had. I mean, even with the the early church, they devoted themselves to the you know, the apostles' doctrine, fellowship, prayer, and breaking of bread. And I think the the challenge sometimes, the tension we feel is there is biblical covering, yeah, but then there's smothering. And so we want to provide covering for young people

Leading While You’re Still Growing

SPEAKER_02 1:01:46

that are zealous for the Lord. Really good run, go hard, go crazy, just do it with parameters. Let me show you what like in the game in the game of football. Here's a touchdown, here's a touchdown, here's out of bounds, here's out of bounds. Go berserk, like go stupid, do your thing. Yeah, yeah. Don't go out of bounds. And these are the wins. That's good. And I think when we create space for them to do that uh in safety and in relationship, man, it sets them up well. It sets them up so well, man. I think uh, yeah, it's important, man, that we because I I do see that trend. I see ministry getting younger. Yep, I see ministers getting younger, and I see them going further, faster. And one of the things I realized is there's young people that have more influence in us. They do. Yep. They're gonna lead their generation better than we could. And honestly, to some degree, like, how sad is that? Honestly, like, how sad is that? And it's it's good, sure, but I'm like, man, I don't want young people to just miss out. Because I used to ask young people all the time, like, yo, what can an older person teach you? The consistent thing I get, financial stewardship. I'm like, bro, there's more I can I could teach you more than financial stewardship.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:50

I see your shirt, it's wrinkled. I could teach you how to iron that. Yeah, there's more than just how to balance a checkbook.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

But when you marry the two, because it's not hey, hey, come and listen to me. It's like, hey, man, let's learn together. Like, let's let's figure this out together. And I think the, you know, that's what my spiritual father does. He gets down on my level and like he knows way more than me.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:06

There you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

But sometimes he makes me feel like I'm like teaching him something. And I think it's so important that we do that in relationship with you know the younger generations and the older generation.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

Well, and I think that'll be a new dynamic as well, is that you know, our predecessors, it's like, let me teach you what I know so that you can. I think that our generation we're starting to see more of a no, no, you teach me too. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I don't know it all.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

Big time.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

You know, there's gonna be a time when you know, we've got chat 40 and I don't know what prompt to feed it, and so my little, you know, whoever is gonna teach me, no, no, no. It's not about prompts anymore, it's about thoughts. You gotta think the right, which is crazy, right? You got this little chip, you gotta think the right thought. Yeah, uh, but I I think that there is an openness, and this is what I'm having to like challenge myself with as well. I don't know everything. For sure. And I'm at this weird age where it's like I'm just young enough that I can still reach back and I'm old enough that I can still kind of be the kid in the room and you know, kind of roll with these people. But um I think one of the trends that we're gonna start to see is that if the church is gonna expand, we leadership as they age up have got to make room. Yeah, and I think that we're seeing that in denominations that those that aren't making room for younger are gonna die very quickly. Churches that aren't making room for younger are gonna die very quickly, but we have got to get to a mode of of being spiritual fathers and helping to raise sons and daughters, not just a machine kicking out soldiers for the cause, absolutely, which is where that depth comes from. That's so good. So I think those are a few things that we're gonna see, and all of that's not gonna come to fruition in 26, but I think that we're even seeing some of that, you know, as early as you know, 22, 23, you know, the last few years we've been seeing some of these trends. But um, yeah, we're gonna start to see more and more of that. Yeah, man. That's that's so fire.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:56

Man, I got so many questions, bro. And we're that we definitely first of all, we definitely gotta shoot again. Cause this is what time is it 10? I'll keep rolling. Don't play. Hey, I'm like, we'll go all night. I'll go literally all night until tomorrow. There you go. But I think that some of these questions, man, are are so good that you know, especially my team, man, they really they really wanted to kind of glean some wisdom on. And so um the next question is what are some practical things you do with your leaders to create a healthy future among them?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

It's great. Uh, back to making room early. Yeah. So we believe that leaders in the room are not just those that are 20 and above. You know, we we see students uh as as leaders, and so making room for them um is is big, giving them opportunity to play and to practice and to receive um feedback, you know, to be critiqued and and to try. Yeah, that's a big one. Um, standards, you know, is is another big one. You I think if you lower the bar, you're gonna have a um a poor quality leader. And so fight the urge to lower the bar, keep the bar high, for sure. You know, call people up. Absolutely. Um, I think that that keeps them healthy. The other thing is be okay to institute or instill uh correction, discipline. Like there have been people that we've had to sit down and just go, listen, you are you are way too far out. You gotta there's there's some hard things that you gotta fix. Let's back you up and then let's move you forward. Um, so that's that's another thing, and which which can be really hard. Correction and confrontation could be really hard for a lot of leaders because I don't want to injure the person and then we lose the yeah, but scripture says spare the rod, spoiled the child. So if if I'm not disciplining, yeah, even I mean scripture says he he disciplines those that he loves. Yeah, so um I would say that discipline, that correction, and back to your illustration, don't whoop them hard enough or too hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:50

For sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

But there needs to be some of that that discipline and correction.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:54

And the relationship is there because I think whenever you bring correction from a place of relationship, it's easier to receive. I think sometimes I've been in spaces where I tried to correct before the relationship was established and I pushed away. And so relationship is foundational.

Bridging Generations And Abiding

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

There it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

That's key.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

That's key. Um and then lastly, I would and I would just harp on this so hard, but if you're gonna grow, if you're gonna grow leaders, um identifying what's in them and pulling out what's in them, not just you know what you or the the machine needs. And I think that when we can come together and I can identify what God's put in you and we can put that to work and critique that and uh develop that, you know, you become better and so do we. Um the church is a body, you're a hand, I'm a foot. And so I don't want to try to make you a foot if you were never designed to be a foot. And so I I think identifying what God's placed inside of that individual, pulling that out and developing them is is gonna be for longevity's sake, massive.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:56

Yeah, and with us as as leaders creating space for people, putting them in a position where they can win. Yeah, putting them in position, there's a 70-30 principle that we firmly believe in my wife and I. 70% of the things we do, it's like natural. Like we're gifted to do it. And there's 30% that it takes like it's like writing with your opposite hand. It's like challenging. I've got to really focus. I want to put young leaders in a position where they can live into their 70 more than living into their 30, because at the end of the day, like I administratively is not my gift. Sure. It's not sure. I even said this podcast, like, we it could have gone many different directions, and we could have been you know better prepared in terms of just administratively. But I think whenever you have people that are living into their strengths, they're gonna continue to grow. There's young people, man, that have a gift to communicate, give them a space to communicate. I have some older leaders that don't believe in that. I'm like, well, they can shut up. Like, I just don't, I just didn't for you know, hey, whatever. Yeah, sure. You know, it's just a this is a hill that I'll die on. Yeah, like, but I just think that man, put them in a position where they can fail, create a safe space for them to fail. Why are we afraid of failure? Yeah, like I'm thankful that I had leaders in my life. And one of the things my pastor told me, man, he's like, Marcus, pursue excellence, not perfection.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:05

There you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:06

And like he will call me and rebuke me, but I know that he loves me. Sure. And I think it's important for us to do the same with the young leaders in our lives, man. Um, another question we have, and we'll go a couple more. Um, then I'd love for you just to kind of give some some you know, some wisdom, some, some final thoughts. But what does operating in your gift in what are what does operating in the gifts of the spirit look like in your private life as a pastor?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:30

It's great. Um, specifically speaking in tongues, you know, I I talked to you about growing up in AGP. So I received that gift when I was 12 years old out of camp. And I was taught pastor developed to practice that often, like any other language, it develops. And so I don't reserve that for special moments. Like I'll pray in the spirit pretty often. Come on, you know, um, prophecy is is another big one. In fact, scripture says of all of the gifts, you know. I wish that you would prophesy and and those types of things. Uh, some of the gifts, you know, words of knowledge, faith, um, miracles. This is this is something that two years ago, so I just started like seriously traveling and speaking. It's something that's been in my heart. And I've done over the last decade, I've done a a couple of like one-offs here and there, but God's really kind of ble breathed on this area in in our ministry, and I'm really grateful for it. But I just started praying and believing that God was gonna do miracles. And I don't know what it was that clicked in my head, yeah. Because sometimes it's a heart thing, yeah, right? Like I can't get it right here, and that's why it doesn't flow. And sometimes it's a head thing, and for me it for so long it was like, okay, some people get to do the miracle thing, that's just not gonna be a part of my ministry.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:44

Come on.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:44

But I just started to believe and pray and and pray out loud and speak life to that. And um I don't know I I don't know when it was specifically, but that was something that that's started to show up in our ministry is God doing physical miracles. And um one cool story, just this past summer, I was speaking in North Texas at one of the youth camps, and it was pre-service prayer, and they had about a hundred leaders gathered in their auditorium, and we were all praying, and um, and I wanted to see you know God do a miracle at that camp as well. And I just I prayed, God, let it not even be connected to the message because I don't even want the miracle connected to me. Come on. Like I do, the pride in me does, but I'm like, let this is the way that I'm gonna kill pride. Let the miracle happen in worship moments. Yeah, man. 30 seconds later. Uh the guy who's leading pre-service prayer prays the exact same thing. I'm like, okay, Lord, you're about to do something. Come on. And in service that night, I kid you not, Marcus. In service that night, I'm worshiping, and um, and I would say probably four or five rows behind me, I just start to hear this like eruption of like cheering, and I'm like, oh, worship's good. Worship moment tonight. It's gonna be an easy message, right? And uh and it keeps going. And then I moved to like, okay, I'm a little annoyed because I'm trying to get my worship on, right? And I'm looking around and and then I hear um this girl in this worship moment, she she gets healed. She had walked in. Um, there was I think it was an ACL tear and mid-worship. God heals her. God heals her. And um, and stories like that all summer last summer, even at at our youth

First Love, Encouragement, And Prayer

SPEAKER_01 1:12:19

camp, you prayed over a kid, he came down to be healed, God gave him joy first. Yeah, man. Come on. And then you touched his knees and he was healed. And so I I think that when we start talking about the gifts of the spirit, those weren't relegated to acts. Come on. But it takes people who believe and pray for those things and make space for them to have.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:38

Make space for them, man. Put yourself in the position where I always like put myself in a position where God has to show up. I'm like, it ain't about me, Lord.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:44

And maybe that's the thing. Maybe I've just gotten to a place where I'm like, okay, either he shows up or this don't work. But I I think that we we gotta, if we want to see the same power that we saw in the book of Acts, yeah, man. We gotta make room for that, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:00

Gotta step out. And there's times, man, where I've stepped out and looked like an absolute buffoon, but you know what? It's not about me. It's not about me. And it's not up to me to heal anybody. I'm gonna step out in faith. 2 Corinthians 5 7, for we walk by faith and not by sight. There you go. Giving space for Holy Spirit to be Holy Spirit. I don't know why some people get healed and some people don't get healed, but what I see is not going to dictate what I believe according to what I read in the scriptures.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:21

Period. I've settled it in my heart. I'm always going to press in for it, man. And um, just love camp was wild, bro. That was such a fun experience for me. I tell you, just being a part, bro, just that was a wild thought, bro. I loved it. Um, we got two more questions, man. Um, so um, how can young adults be leaders in their generation while they themselves are developing and learning?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:47

Fantastic question. Because it is the understanding that um I don't become a leader. Yeah, that um well, let me start here. Leaders are are built, they're not born. So there is a developmental phase. And I I never arrive as a leader. Yeah, if I think I've ever arrived, I've I've peaked as a leader. Yeah, I I gotta remain teachable. So I think you can lead wherever you're at, at whatever stage you're in. You just gotta understand that I might not be the leader in the stage of life that I'm at. And if you can be okay with that, that I can impact, yeah, yeah, yeah, come on, bring some influence where I am at my Chick-fil-A job, that's right, on my team, that's right, in my family. That was me for a number of years. You know, I was 18, I was the only believer in our family. And and so I could be a leader in my family at that time without the title of pastor. Yeah. And so if you're waiting to become someday before you lead, I think that you've missed it. And you've gotta, your prayer needs to become how can I lead where I am and when I am? For sure. David was leading even when he was in the pasture. For sure. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:03

It's leading in you know obscurity. Like leadership is developed. I love how you said leaders are built. Yeah, like it's learning how to lead when no one's around. Like those are the moments that will sustain you. Young leader, hear me. Learn how to lead when nobody's watching. There is because at the end of the day, integrity is doing the right thing when nobody's there, and when you can do that consistently in the secret place, God creates space for your gift. The Bible says, You uh God will your gifts will make room for you and put you before great men. Allow God to do that first in the secret place, period. And if you do that, man, yeah. Well, if I would if I would have got this when I was 18, boy, I'll tell you what.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:46

But there's probably a a guy or girl listening that wants practicals. Let me give you some practicals because that's deeply conceptual. For sure. I I would find a a coach, a mentor, a pastor, somebody that can really help lead and guide you in that. And not everybody needs to be yoda in your life. You know, I think that sometimes people look for somebody who can be like everything wrapped into one that can like carry you from infancy of leadership all the way to the those types of leaders don't come along too often. What you gotta do is get three or four people in your life. This is how this person's gonna grow my gifting, this person's gonna give, uh grow my maybe my faith. This person's gonna grow my you know what I mean? Like find people that can help develop you and then put that leadership into practice. You know, you were on a football team, think about being strengthened and conditioned, but never putting that into practice until you join the NFL. Yeah, no team would have looked at you for sure. And so we're we're waiting to arrive. You're never going to arrive. Yeah, that's a fallacy. Even at 39 and in ministry, some days I wake up and I'm like, I'm the wrong person for this job. 22 years into youth ministry, I'm going, somebody else can do this better. And they probably can. So it's not about a rival, you know, it's about how do I lead where I am, when I am, and am I being intentional with what is being developed in me to be impactful where God's planted me. So good, bro. You don't need a pulpit to be a leader.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:10

You you you need to learn how to lead your pulpit, man. Like let your life the Bible says, let your light so shine before men. There you go, so they may see your good works and glorify your father in heaven. That's not with a microphone. That's living your life unto the Lord. Like, I want to be a person that I want to spend time in the presence of God that everywhere that I go, they can tell who I spend time with. Like, be that kind of a person, man. It's an invitation for intimacy, man, because Jesus, wow, he's always drawing us. Even for me, like he's always like, hey, come on, spend some time with me. Spend some time with me. And I'm at the stage in my life where I'm like, man, I'm gonna lean into that more than I lean into anything else. Because that's the only thing, and it's just in his presence is fullness of joy. Yeah, and I've found joy in all the wrong places sometimes. And I just want to find joy in his presence, man. Come on. Well, last question, man, and then I would love for you to to to kind of give some final thoughts to a young leader, somebody, not even a young leader, man, maybe it's somebody that's 40, 50 years old in ministry, would love for you to give them some wisdom. But the last question um is how can the younger generation abide in Jesus and seek to partner with their older generations in order to achieve their calling?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:19

Again, a two-part question. I'm gonna deal with the second part before the first. Come on. That partnering with, there has got to be an understanding that they're human too. And I think that a lot of times we look at those that have gone before us and go, You should you should be perfect. You should have it all figured out. And the longer that I deal with students who are are having like parental problems, a parent is this, and now that I'm a parent, I go, This is the first time I've ever been a parent to a seven-year-old. Like I'm actively figuring this out. And so, you teenager who's like, Yeah, your parents should know better, they're an adult and they should have better decisions sometimes, but at the end of the day, they are human, they're not a superhero, they're not perfect. So I think that that idyllic expectation of perfection is unhealthy. You you have to understand that that leader uh is broken, flawed, and a sinner just like you. And perfection, if that is the prerequisite to work with somebody, who's gonna work with you when you age up to 40, 45, 60, you know? Um so that that would be, I think, one of the biggest things. Make room for their imperfections, understand that they're human. Um, the second thing is be okay to to learn from wisdom. You know, they they say that um youth is is wasted on on the young, but the the wisdom that life has given them, living years of ministry, it's for a reason. And here's why we need each other, because we need your naivete to be able to go. This can work, and I don't care what we got to do to make it work. Because wisdom has taught us, no, if we do this, somebody gets hurt.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:06

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:06

We need somebody in our corner that goes, I don't care what it costs, we're charging that hill. We need that. But we also need somebody that goes, okay, how many bodies are we gonna have to step over to get there? For sure. Is it worth it at the speed, the pace, and with the strategy that you're talking about? Or do you even have strategy? You know what I mean? Because the older that I get, the more that I go, okay, there's probably a strategic play here. For sure. And the the danger that you and I have is the older that we get, the safer we become.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:32

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:33

So we need we need the young adult who goes, bump, safety. We got somewhere to go. Yeah, man. But we also need wisdom in the room to say, okay, somebody's gonna die if we do that. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:45

Uh so we do need each other. It's a it's a beautiful dance. It's like collaboring two oxen, older oxen, younger oxen. One represents strength, one represents wisdom. You need both of them to kill the ground. Exactly. I think sometimes as old heads, I you know, even myself, I'm like, well, we hold on now. Let's let's let's just make sure that this is the Satan. Yep, yep. And they're like, no, let's run. Who cares? Let's go across the world. I'm like, these young people are just built different, man. And I did I'm just reminded of myself when we would pack in a van and drive 14 hours to the house of prayer to sit in the permanent fast for 24 hours. I'm like, dang, bro, like I'm to my need, these knees, boy, sitting in a van that long. I can't, I gotta use some wisdom nowadays. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's so good, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:27

But also, like, where are we gonna pull over and go to the bathroom? Like, somebody's gotta think about that, you know. Right, practical. Yeah, yeah, practical stuff. So we need each other. We do have to have each other, and we have to make room for each other. One's not better than the other. For sure. God uses, and this is the beautiful thing about the church, God uses all of it. You know, and so I think the the moment that we muscle out one because the other is right, we've done it wrong. The other thing that I would say to an older generation is if you're holding on so tightly that there isn't room, it's unhealthy. For sure. Because at some point you will die. Yeah. And if uh it's it's back to what we were talking about with the promised land, um, you know, and and then a generation rose up that did not know him. Did not know him. And so we're we're in danger if all we do is lean on wisdom and strategy and we know better, and we don't make room for these people to make mistakes and you know, bring their passion and their new ideas. The church will die. Absolutely. I mean, the church will always progress in his will and his desire, but um, I think the church has way more uh power when we do it together. Now, the abiding part, that that's that's daily discipline, man. That goes back to daily disciplines. You I think that we're looking for vibes, yeah. And and that's that's one danger that I see within the this generation. They chase vibes, and that's why they can't root in churches. It's like once the vibe leaves this church, once the church up the road does something new, you know, it's it's a little bit smaller, trendier, cooler, or that, you know, like they they're vibe chasers. For sure. And um and so you you've got to I go back to that that daily discipline, abiding in the Lord is not about feelings, it's about choice. And if if you if you formulate and create and live your life based on feelings, you're never gonna be anywhere long term.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:22

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:22

Take the picture of marriage. There are days where it's like, yeah, all the passion is there, and I there's nobody else I want to be around. And then there are other days where it's like we get on each other's nerves and we want to be anywhere else, but yeah, abiding is not about feeling chasing. There are gonna be days where I get mad at God. David, the psalmist, writes, what where are you? or my enemies are have come against me. But he learns to abide that even in his wrestle with God, he still knows where to go back, and that's to God.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:52

And that's what true abiding looks like is does not feelings don't enter the chat. It's it's my decisions drive this thing. Consistently, man. And I would I would tell that to the younger generation is if you want to really truly learn to abide, don't follow feelings. Yeah, let decision drive the bus.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:09

Absolutely. And what you discipline yourself to do will become a desire. Like just keep just keep showing up. It's true. Keep praying. Appetites change. Come on, keep pressing in, and God will honor that, man. So I'd love for you, man, just to kind of give some some closing thoughts to somebody that might be listening to this, that maybe they don't know the Lord, maybe they do know the Lord, maybe they've are backslidden, maybe they're just kind of figuring things out, maybe they're a senior, you know, senior, senior leader. I know it's a pretty broad topic, man, but I believe the Holy Spirit has given you something in closing to impart to somebody that's listening.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:40

I would tell the the listener, regardless of relationship with the Lord, uh years spent or um how you're feeling about your relationship with the Lord, there is there's more that he wants to give and there's more that he wants to do. And uh if things have grown stale or cold or old, you know, I think about the church that is referenced in the book of Revelation, um, you've forgotten your first love. And um getting back to that that place of remembering your first love, whether it was a camp encounter and you were 13 or um, you know, something happened in a church or with a random stranger that God met you, um there is more that God wants to do. And when we make this relationship with Him about set rules and regulations and vain pursuits, um that abiding goes out the window really, really quickly. For the professional pastor, I would say remember your first love. For the waning Christian, I would say remember your first love. For the person who's ready to throw in the towel because you feel like God promised you XYZ and you're 13 years in and haven't seen it, remember your first love. If God did not another thing for us, Marcus, the fact that he gave his son is enough. And somewhere along the road we have gotten to the place where we think that God owes us and he owes us nothing. The gift of relationship is enough. And I'm having to remember again that that 17-year-old kid said yes to God before God promised him anything. I'm a son first. Um remember your first love, and there's more that God wants to do in you, through you, and and for you. Um I know it's it's so elementary, foundational, but that's what I would tell every listener is uh remember your first love. There's more that God's got for one.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:43

I just know for a fact, man. Um God just really blessed somebody. That's exactly what they've been praying for, the exact Kirwol's word that they've been waiting for. And just thank you so much for being on, man. I'd love it if you would close us in prayer.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:58

Yeah, absolutely. Father, we thank you for the gift of relationship. We thank you for who you are, what you gave to us and what you continually extend to us. We um we could never know the full depth of what that cost that you would give your son, your your one and only son. And while we understand it on a finite level, yes, it grants us eternity, and yes, it gives us restored relationship, but Lord, we we really can't fully understand the gravity of what that is. And I just pray for every person who's watching and listening that you would make that revelation new and fresh to them again. If we've lost the awe of who you are and what you did, bring that back to us. Lord, I pray for the person who's ready to throw in the towel, they're ready to give up, you'd meet them in the room that they're watching. God, that you'd meet them in the gym, the office, wherever they are, meet them. Let your tangible presence fill that physical space. Let hard hearts become soft again. Lord, let the the callousness, the cynicism fall off of those that uh life has just kind of uh kicked again and again, and and honestly, that hardness has become a protection so that they wouldn't be hurt again. Lord, make them soft again, I pray. Able to love people, to love you, to enjoy your presence again. We ask that um you would encourage, you would empower, you would anoint. God, I pray for a fresh wind at the back of every person who's listening to this. That there be a fresh wind. If their legs have grown tired, if their knees are weak, if they've loosened their grip, Lord, I pray yet again re-engage our heart and our spirit to what you called us to. We love you, God. We thank you for who you are and again what you've done. It's in the name of Jesus that we pray. Amen. I appreciate you so much, man. Definitely gotta have you back on, brother. Would love it. Thank you for letting me be here, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:11

It was a blast. Let's go.