3. Mapping the Spiritual Terrain

Navigating the ever-shifting landscape of our spiritual lives can be challenging, especially when our old "maps" don't seem to help us navigate anymore. How can insights from the Christian mystics offer us a more dynamic way of mapping the spiritual terrain?

Featuring music by Daniel Couper: http://www.danielcoupermusic.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Questing Soul Podcast, where friends come together to explore how we can journey deeper into the divine life. I'm Independent Christian Church, Pastor Benjamin Lee, and I'm joined by my good friend, theological enthusiast, and fellow wayfarer Hannah E. Kiker. Whether you're searching or finding, deconstructing or reconstructing, wandering or wondering, we invite you to join us on this essential quest for a life that is good, beautiful, and true.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Nothing ventured, nothing gained here at the end of one more day.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Today's episode is brought to you by a nature-loving poet from Ohio, a Franciscan theologian with PhDs in science and religion, and an international cohort of mystics. Who will all offer our poor questing souls different kinds of maps for navigating the spiritual journey?

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Can't wait.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

You can't wait?

SPEAKER_05 1:04

Can't wait.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Are you on the edge of your seat? I am. It's like a little, it's like a little taste, a little uh a little sprinkling of uh magic dust powder, like they put on the crust of some pizzas.

SPEAKER_06 1:21

You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I didn't know it was magic, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I think they call it magic dust.

SPEAKER_06 1:26

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah. Uh and that is our international cohort of mystics we're engineering from. So delightful. They're a combination of just good stuff. And sometimes it's a mystery.

SPEAKER_06 1:36

Sometimes they bring a little magic dust.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:39

Do you like how we did that? We connected it.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yeah, of course, because we're professionals. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Uh last episode we talked a little bit about maps uh and how we we use metaphorical maps. You could call it a framework of how we understand the spiritual journey, um, just the kind of spiritual landscape in which we navigate our lives. Sometimes we just forget that we are that we have a framework, that we have these assumptions. So the metaphor of map, I think, can help us become a little bit more aware of like, oh, we all of us are given a certain map to navigate the world, metaphorically speaking. Uh, and we talked a little bit about that last week. I think I'm gonna go back to two episodes ago, like our first episode is just talking about we have these moments of calling, these moments like you were saying, is this it? Right? There is there there's something more. Yeah. Sometimes we can be moment we can be in situations of pain that make us want to journey out or quest or seek. Uh obviously, the the title of the podcast is the the questing soul from Gregory Innis' quote is a journeying metaphor. So the first episode is just like this move to go beyond the borders or the terrain, either in terms of understanding the world and God, and we'll talk a little bit more about this, I think, internally and externally all the time. And so sometimes it's uh it's an external pursuit of like what more is out there in terms of what how I understand the world and God. Yeah, but then there's also an internal pursuit, it's a spiritual quest to say what who am I, and uh is there more to me than how I initially understood myself. So anyway, two different kinds of journeying.

SPEAKER_06 3:36

Yeah, so that's what we'll be talking about, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_06 3:38

I hope so.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Just gotta be yourself and would you hurry up and slow down? You don't gotta change the world. You don't gotta be someone, just gotta be yourself and love. Would you hurry up and slow up?

SPEAKER_01 3:59

I do want to talk about the dynamics of maps before uh we just briefly talk about that metaphor.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Because I think as we talk about the the usefulness of this metaphor and how it might apply to some of the maps of the mystics, I love maps.

SPEAKER_06 4:15

Yeah, we can.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

And of all kinds. So yeah, I just want to know, do you have any favorite maps? Do you have any like, do you have any example of like, oh, do you like maps? And you say, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

Like, what would we tell you about this one?

SPEAKER_01 4:30

What would you point to as like, oh, here's a kind of map. Yeah, like, I don't know, excited, fascinated.

SPEAKER_06 4:36

Yeah. Uh I do have a favorite map. I think it's kind of funny that it's my favorite though, because it's like super out of date. It is no longer helpful for the world. I mean, literally, it's no longer helpful for the universe.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

But you like it.

SPEAKER_06 4:52

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_06 4:54

It captured my imagination when I saw it.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:57

Uh so there's this for you've been have you been to Florence? Yeah. In Italy. So there's a museum called Muse I mean, I don't know how to speak Italian. Museo. Don't do it. Don't do it. Daniel's cringing. Is this the one with the David, or is it another one? No, this one is called Museo Galileo. And it's it's a lot of it is about Galileo, but it also is like kind of just in general sci a celebration of like scientific discovery throughout the ages. Um, but fun fact, this is not my favorite map, but they do have one of Galileo's middle fingers there, finger bones. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 5:47

He was he was buried, I guess, outside of a this has nothing to do with maps. Can I just I think you'll like it? He was buried outside of a church church grounds because he was thought of as a heretic. Right. But then like a century later, they were like, oh, this guy's pretty smart. Maybe we should dig him up and move him to a Christian cemetery.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 6:11

So they dug him up, and in the process, somebody stole one of his finger bones. His middle finger. Yeah. And so it's now in a museum and like a little thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

So they found, I mean, the the the culprit was Yeah, I don't know how that happened.

SPEAKER_06 6:26

I don't know that part of the story. But yeah, so it ended up in this museum.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

So a map in this museum.

unknown 6:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 6:31

Yeah, that's what I was gonna talk about. So you walk into this room and all of a sudden you're confronted with this massive, massive, like it looks, it's like a circle, like it looks like a globe, but it's not like a solid like a globe. It's all of these interlocking metal rings that are just make up this this orb kind of. And it's really tall. It's like I mean, I don't know, maybe 10 feet tall. It's it's so cool looking. And it's it's called an armillary sphere, I think is what it's called. And this is a three-dimensional three-dimensional, yeah, it's an orb. Um and so you can walk kind of all the way around it, and it's it's just interlocking metal rings that all move around kind of a center. And uh it was created in like 1593 or completed in 1593. I think it took a really long time to make. Um, but it was it basically mapped uh Aristotle and Ptolemy. Is that how you say it? Yeah, Artolemy. Ptolemy. Uh their conception, their theory of the universe, which was that everything rotated around the earth, right? That the earth was the center of the universe and everything.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

So this had a model of the earth, but then all of the the iron rings that are around this orb are tracking the stars and the planets.

SPEAKER_06 7:51

Stars, planets, sun, yeah, moon, all of that. Um and so, you know, then Galileo comes along not that much longer, not not that much farther after that, and is like, I don't think that's how it works. Sorry, guys.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Sorry, you made this beautiful thing, and um it is correct in terms of like, oh, this is an accurate uh guess at how you're seeing things, but it's not accurate in terms of how the you know Well, and it reflected like the best wisdom of their time.

SPEAKER_06 8:25

Yeah, but then he came along and was like, I don't think that's how this works. Right. Um it's actually like the opposite. Yeah. Um and so obviously it was very quickly out of date. I mean it I it like took like a decade or something to make it. And then and then within I mean, within like probably 50 to 100 years, it was like out of date. But but so it's in this museum in Florence and I was obsessed with it. Yeah. I we we le well, first of all, we spent like a ton of time in that or I spent a ton of time in that room, but then like we left and I just read everything I could find about it, which isn't a lot, but why why did you why were you so fascinated at a ro at a map that was wrong? Well, I think it was more the concept of that someone was the in the 1500s was trying to map the universe. Yeah, like there's something about that to me that is bonkers. Like what like who's like I'm gonna try to map the stars and the sun and the planets? Yeah, like even just that's that is inspiring to me.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Yeah, and you would not have a Galileo if you didn't have people making their best guest of the map. Yeah, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 9:45

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Um and so it's not wasted, it's not wasted in.

SPEAKER_06 9:49

Yeah, no, not at all. It's just uh it, you know, there's so many maps now that we have that are out of date, but they reflected the best wisdom of their time. Yeah. Um and so there's something really interesting to me about that too. But yeah, but yeah, so I would say like as soon as I think of like a map in my mind, that is Yeah. It's 10 foot tall orb.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Right. Yeah. So my other my other favorite map, um Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:15

Tell me.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

I don't know why, but it's a fictitious map. So okay.

SPEAKER_04 10:20

So sorry.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Tolkien's is okay. It's fascinating.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

It's just okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

No, it's it's great. It's second best in my book. Okay, okay. Uh one of my favorite novels is a fantasy novel called Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. LeGuin.

SPEAKER_05 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

It's a masterpiece.

SPEAKER_05 10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

In my mind, it's head and shoulders over Narnia. I know that that is like that's scandalous to many of our friends, but it a hundred percent in my book is way more enthralling than Narnia. Uh, so it has a memory of an archipelago.

SPEAKER_05 10:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Uh, so just a collection of islands. And uh part of what made it so interesting is um so in the book, she's talking about the different places that he'll sail to, and there's uh an island for wizards and stuff like that. But then what part of what fascinated me was like you read uh like she's got five or six books that happen within this world, but there's so many islands you don't even get to, and you're like, she'll mention, oh, this guy came from this island, she'll just mention them and then doesn't they never mention an island where a guy's from and drop a line of like, yeah, and they were known to have a wizard who once caused an earthquake to stop. And then that's it. It's just an allusion to this guy who lived on this island who did a powerful thing, and then they don't talk about anything.

SPEAKER_06 11:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Something's gotta be going on.

SPEAKER_06 11:41

Could we talk about that?

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Can we talk about that?

SPEAKER_06 11:43

Yeah, Ursula.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Yeah. Uh that's neat. Yeah, that's my one of my favorite maps.

SPEAKER_06 11:50

Lives in your imagination.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Yeah. Anyway.

SPEAKER_06 11:53

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Yeah. It's my favorite maps.

SPEAKER_06 11:56

And then Tolkien's is a a low second.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yeah.

unknown 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

It's good. It just is not, it's more just like straightforward. Yeah. It's too similar to like, oh, this could be East Tennessee.

SPEAKER_05 12:09

Yeah. Boring.

SPEAKER_06 12:22

Thirst. A poem by Mary Oliver. Another morning, and I wake with thirst for the goodness I do not have. I walk out to the pond, and all the way God has given us such beautiful lessons. Oh Lord, I was never a quick scholar, but sulked and hunched over my books past the hour and the bell. Grant me, in your mercy, a little more time. Love for the earth and love for you are having such a long conversation in my heart. Who knows what will finally happen or where I will be sent. Yet already I have given a great many things away, expecting to be told to pack nothing except the prayers, which with this thirst I am slowly learning.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

I think the thirst element is very much in line with uh that one of the strong ways in which we are called onto an ad a journey to travel beyond the borders of our original map. So I appreciated that, Imagery. What did you like about it?

SPEAKER_06 13:30

Um I love I love the idea of those last few lines. Um who knows what will happen or where I'll be sent. Um but I've already given things away, right? Except prayers, which with this thirst I'm slowly learning. And so this idea that that the thirst that we have is what drives us forward. Yeah. Um, and that that's like we were talking about, you know, back, I think in the first episode, of this idea that something is propelling you, something is telling you like there is a goodness, right? That first line, she says, I wake with thirst for the goodness I do not have, that there's this sense that we have that there's more out there, and that so that it's this this idea of feeling the absence of God or the absence of a deeper spiritual life that kind of like draws us forward. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Yeah, and it can be painful, yeah, yeah. But the yeah, I think a lot of people get freaked out when they don't feel the presence of God when it's just like, oh, that actually might be the very thing that God is using to lead you.

SPEAKER_04 14:44

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Pay attention to that that absence, yeah, and why is it that you crave it?

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

So and desire plays a huge, as we've probably alluded to, plays a huge role in a lot of the mystics. So, yeah. So we've been talking about maps, and as I was thinking about the vast warehouse of resources that the mystics bring us, um we've started this conversation with talking about favorite maps, and I was thinking, you know, that's a that's a good metaphor to understand the the mystics as well as their as their writings. The dynamic of maps is similar to the dynamics of how the mystics work. So, for instance, one kind of map is a roadmap that you would see in Manhattan. So, how do you get from like fourth in Maine to, you know, Broadway and Third Street or something like that. Anyway, so I can just give you that map, you can navigate it pretty simply. And I think some of the mystics offer us that kind of straightforward but you like here are some answers for you. Right, here's some answers, here's some practical things you can do. Uh, and that's great in the spiritual life. But if you try to read all of the mystics that way, you're gonna be you're gonna come across some mystics, and it's like this doesn't work. Uh, and I think it's also then similar to kind of like a topographical map. So topographical map kind of shows you elevation.

SPEAKER_06 16:15

Those are like the kind that use for hiking.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Yes. Yeah. Use for hiking. So you can have a trail that leads up to the mountain. You can have a couple trails that lead up to the top of the mountain. One can just go straight up the ridge, another one does a lot of switchbacks. And by looking at a topographical map, you get a little bit of an understanding of like, oh, that will be brutal. If I just go from point A to point B, it would be absolutely brutal.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

But sometimes it's good to know, like, oh, the distance isn't far, but it's actually healthier to take a meandering way up the trail. Yeah. So some of the mystics intentionally take that meandering way up the trail while at the same time kind of acknowledging, like, oh, you can go from point A, you can kill yourself. You can try it. Yeah. Um, and then uh a fun map to look at are like maps that chart the sea. And some of these older maps, you know, when they were just finding good routes from like Spain to South America, it traces the currents and the winds. And so those maps are more like not how do you get from point A to point B, but how do you place yourself in a current? And so there's a lot more of a passive dynamic.

SPEAKER_06 17:27

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

And then we have like in Tennessee, a lot of people like to go spelunking. You know what spelunking. Have you ever been spelunking?

SPEAKER_04 17:34

I have.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:36

Yeah. I didn't love it.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Why?

SPEAKER_06 17:39

Uh I was terrified by the fact that I was closed in under the earth. I did not did not love that.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Those of you who don't know what spelunking is, it's caving.

SPEAKER_06 17:52

I found yeah, I found it very disorienting. Yes. I did not I I couldn't figure out where I was in space. Right. Or not in space, but you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Right. Did you use a map?

SPEAKER_06 18:03

Uh no, I went with a friend who um was had been there many times. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

And I think that's a exactly what that's exactly what some of the mystics' writings are. It's like, oh, yeah. They're guiding you down terrain and you have no sense of where you are and where you're going. And you kind of have to trust them.

SPEAKER_04 18:24

You're like hoping that they'll Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:27

This person from like the 1500s. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Hoping that they know what they're doing. But one of the things is we have the benefit of, oh, over 500 years, this is this guy or this girl has been a great uh guide for people. And you can trust, you can trust this person as they're leaving you, leading you through the caverns of your own soul. Um and so just yeah, you like that?

SPEAKER_05 18:51

I like that. You don't like that?

SPEAKER_01 18:54

I mean, maybe. And so there's that dynamic, and I think it's good to know on the front end that the mystics are not a one size fits all, first of all. It depends on kind of where you are in your own spiritual journey. Um, but just being aware that there's that not only is it a wide range of mystics, but they're all doing a little bit of something different.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

So with that in mind, I want to use another metaphor of uh Okay. An XY axis.

SPEAKER_06 19:25

Ooh. Uh this is uh where everyone gets introduced to Ben the mathematician.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

No, a horrible but I do know, I do know about the xy axis.

SPEAKER_05 19:37

So let's hear it.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Imagine a dot on a page that's your center point. Okay. Okay. And then from that dot, we're gonna draw uh a line going right and going left from that dot, and two arrows on either side. So an arrow from the dot going right, arrow from the dot going left. And is that the x-axis or the y-axis?

SPEAKER_05 19:59

Uh you're the mathematician.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

I've already failed. Anyway, it's one of those. Uh and that's gonna represent active and passive. And so sometimes the mystics will be talking about this active dynamic, which would be kind of like the roadmap of like, oh, here's what you can do, here's how you can get from point A to point B.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

But then sometimes the mystics will be talking about the spiritual journey and it's passive. And that's more like if you're going spelunking and you need a guide, right? You you're being led and you don't know where you're going. And so, in some ways, even though you're doing some action, the the guiding is done by someone else, um, whether it's a spiritual guide in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, yeah. Or like placing yourself within a current. And how do you make your life more open to this current or to the wind of the Holy Spirit?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

They'll they'll be giving insight into that kind of dynamic. And then we have also from that point in the middle, you've got arrow going up and going down. And that I'm gonna say is gonna represent the external. So the arrow going up would be external, and the arrow going down is internal. So sometimes the the mystics will talk about the active life and they'll talk about the passive life. They'll also talk about the internal, what's going on inside of our soul, and also what's going on externally. So this journey is not just not just a physical journey that involves action and activity that can be external to our lives, but there's also this aspect that has to do with contemplation and thinking about our thinking about our thoughts, um, reflecting on our life and focusing on certain things. So that creates basically these these four quadrants and like in an XY axis, a mystic or a spiritual. Text, it's not a clear cut like you're just solidly in one quadrant or swallowly in another quadrant. There can be extremes. So sometimes you you can be doing something that can seem, oh, this is both internal and external, right? It can be kind of close to that line. And then there's other things they talk about. It's like, oh, this is 100% just about your activity. And then sometimes, like I've already mentioned, sometimes the passive aspect of spirituality involves us doing something, but it also our doing something is more about being led, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_06 22:37

So it's God's doing the acting.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Yeah. And we're responding, maybe is Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

And so you can have these different degrees in these different quadrants.

SPEAKER_06 22:45

So in terms of thinking about this as a map itself, I want to think about what these talk about what these quadrants are just to give myself a visual. Perfect. So in one quadrant you would have external passive.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Correct.

SPEAKER_06 23:02

And then it would be it would next to it. Would be external active. Yes. And then you go to internal active. Yes. And then internal passive. So those are the four kind of quadrants. Yes. Got it.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Yeah. And that's how we're going to talk about it.

SPEAKER_06 23:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

But this is obviously a dynamic. And so these are all playing with each other.

SPEAKER_06 23:24

And it seems to me that they probably all show up in each other as well. Yes. And uh affect each other.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah. And you want to know what chaps my hide.

SPEAKER_06 23:34

Always.

SPEAKER_04 23:37

This is we need to have a section called uh Ben's pet peeves. Pet peeve of the week.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

It's it's the whataboutisms people, you know. Erm, actually. You know, so whenever you talk about God's act action and how we're passive, you're always going to open yourself up to the critique for people to say, oh, well, you're saying humans don't do anything? It's like, no, we're doing all of these things. Yeah. And in fact, we want to get ourselves close to that center point.

SPEAKER_06 24:07

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

So there are these exercises that we do, but what are the exercises, what's the end game of all of this? Right. Do we have to the end game? Yeah, what's the end game? Of the mystics, yeah. I'm putting you on the spot.

SPEAKER_06 24:21

Uh I feel like the end game is union with God.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Is that right? That is absolutely right.

SPEAKER_06 24:27

Like people, we did not even plan that.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah. I mean, you were to ask, A plus, we'll just say like 80% of the mystics. Like they would use that language.

SPEAKER_05 24:37

Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, union with God.

SPEAKER_05 24:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

And then what is re what is required of me? So what how do I need to be shaped? So obviously there's an external journeying of like, what is this journey of union with God? But also, internally speaking, what is the one thing that is necessary within you to develop? What would that word be? What's the one thing? I think you need to Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Say it, say it again.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

What's the one thing that you need in order to have to grow in union with God? Uh I'll I'll give you a hint.

SPEAKER_05 25:20

This is a quiz, this is becoming a quiz show.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Think Iliadilio. What is the what is the primary force? What is the primary thing? There you go. Love. Yes. Two for two. So that center point.

SPEAKER_05 25:36

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

That center point is center point is how do we expand our capacity for love?

SPEAKER_05 25:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

So uh Teresa of Avalon has will quote the Psalms where she prays to God, God, expand my heart. Yeah, stretch my heart. And so the stretching is to increase our capacity to receive passive God's love.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

But also as we journey towards God, that journeying is the stretching.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

So that we can reach and hold more of God's love. And again, be uh not only receive it, but also extend it, because God's love is something that we participate in.

SPEAKER_05 26:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

So love is gonna be, love is gonna be something that we find in all four of these quadrants.

SPEAKER_05 26:27

Right. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Rock and roll.

SPEAKER_05 26:29

Yeah. Thank you, Ilia Delio. Ilya Delio. She's the Delio. She is the Delio.

SPEAKER_06 26:41

A reading from Ilia Delio's book, The Unbearable Wholeness of Being. Love affects more than our thinking and our behavior toward others we love. It transforms our entire life. Love gives rise to beauty by gathering together what is separate within us. It harmonizes our energies, creating a new oneness of heart through which our inner light flows and illumines the darkness around us. Genuine love is a personal revolution in homemaking. Love takes our ideas, our desires, and our actions and welds them together in one experience and one living reality.

unknown 27:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Isn't that awesome?

SPEAKER_04 27:36

Yeah, it is awesome.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

I think I want you to read that again. Starting with the revolution the revolution of whole say it? Say it.

SPEAKER_06 27:46

Genuine love is a personal revolution in whole making. Love takes our ideas, our desires, and our actions and welds them together in one experience and one living reality.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

See, it's all about integration, wholeness. So again, these quadrants that we're gonna like dip into are supposed to be acting together.

SPEAKER_06 28:10

And um together they make a whole.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yeah. Yeah. And I also like we've talked about desire, but I like how she weaves in like ideas, desires, and actions, right? Because we're gonna be talking about uh ideas, which is an internal thing, uh, desire, which is kind of has to do with love, um, and action, obviously external. Yeah, um, whether it uh be our action or the actions of others or actions of God. Anyway, just that's a fantastic, fantastic quote. Fantastic book, as we both love.

SPEAKER_05 28:38

Good job, Iliadelio.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Way to be. Way to be. All right. So there's uh we're gonna we're gonna fly through these.

SPEAKER_04 28:46

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

I mean, we're gonna try.

SPEAKER_04 28:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

So, and we can talk about we can dive in later. And so this is gonna be like where do you want to start?

SPEAKER_06 28:53

This is the beauty of having our own podcast. We can talk about whatever we want for as long as we want, Penn.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Thank you. All right, external passive.

SPEAKER_06 29:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Uh, we're starting here because I think when I started to take ownership of my own spiritual journey, we learn thou shalt not, right? Ums are like what most of us learn as kids. And I think also as as young Christians, or even just young spiritual questers, that's the easiest thing sometimes to start with. Not that you need to, it's just a common thing. Like, and so I just remember as an early, as an early Christian, it's like, oh, my piety is going to be what I what I don't do, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

And so it's not only avoiding vices, but it's also within this quadrant would be fasting as well. So that's a that's a positive thing that is a negation. Sabbaths, I mean, written into the the law is like, oh yeah, one of the commandments is to take a day and do nothing, rest.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Because it it opens you up to this notion that you are not the primary actor. So that's it, that's it in its healthiest form. It's also healthy to stay away from vices. You just don't want to, you don't want that to be your primary way of understanding spirituality. We are what we don't do, and it's like, oh, that's that's a little bit of it. So the representative I have here is John of the Ladder. Speaking of metaphors for the journey. So I'm gonna have you read from his Ladder of Divine Ascent. This is from the first chapter. And what I like about this is he's talking about the very first chapter is talking about renouncing the world, but he highlights a very important aspect of that. And I try to find quotes in each of these quadrants that kind of hone in on the dynamic of desire and love. Um so I'll have you read this and just kind of give it your impression of how you can't just do the act of renunciation. It has to be driven by something. So let's hear from John of the Ladder.

SPEAKER_06 31:04

Okay, here we go. On three ways of renouncing the world. One, the person who renounces the world because of fear is like burning incense, which begins with fragrance and ends in smoke. Two, the person who leaves the world in hopes of a reward is like the millstone that always turns around on the same axis. Three, but the man who leaves the world for love of God has taken fire from the start, and like fire set to fuel, it soon creates a burning furnace. That's beautiful. Well, because that's my that's my question about this external passive is like what's the deeper, kind of better reason for the purpose of this quadrant, right? Like, because I think it's more than just like don't do these things because God hates them, right? Right. It's like there's gotta be something else that we're trying to access or something else that we're trying to build. Um and so I love this idea that of the different motivations, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:15

For these are very common motivations. Absolutely. I mean, I see myself in uh fear.

unknown 32:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

That's a that's a big many churches teach a spirituality that is motivated by fear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:32

I like that little I was just thinking of the Romans Roads stuff. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I feel like that falls into this.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:39

But yeah, but then the idea of announcing things or um uh what's the word that he he uses? Leaves the world, right? Uh when you do that for love, um, that actually creates energy, right? That that actually creates what is he he says, set it's like setting fire, fire set to fuel. Yeah. It soon creates a burning furnace that just doesn't just lead to like nothing, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:07

Right. Well, like he said, like the one that's done out of fear, it begins with fragrance. And I think about like the zeal that a young spiritual quester might have. And have like good reasons they want to pursue God, but they're doing it out of fear, it ends in smoke. It's kind of like chalk.

SPEAKER_06 33:23

Nothing to hold on to.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Yes.

unknown 33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

And then the other one is like if you're doing it for reward, it's just like the millstone that always turns around the same axis. You just it's gonna be like a sisyfician uh task of rolling the boulder up the hill. You just it's you it's gonna end in exhaustion.

SPEAKER_06 33:40

There's gonna be no joy at all.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

But you're doing it for the sake of love.

SPEAKER_06 33:44

Yeah, um, yeah. Do you think with that with that quadrant, do you think that we our idea of what to renounce or what to give up changes as we grow in the other quadrants? Would you say that that changes?

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Yeah, that's why this uh is always kind of going back and forth from these quadrants to kind of find that balance.

SPEAKER_06 34:05

And they inform each other and definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

So the way of negation is all about creating space, and again, creating space for this love, but it's always we I think every soul has some capacity, even if it's extremely small, every soul has the capacity to receive some aspect of God's love, and it's that love that I think ignite it. That's the fire that John of the Divine is talking about is the love that God already stirs within us is the love with which we're trying to pursue God, and that's what kind of drives us. So a French Eastern Orthodox theologian has a great little quote, Oliver Clement. Um, I'll have you read it because I think he he kind of gets at this notion of the way of negation as a way of creating space. He has a beautiful way of framing it.

SPEAKER_06 34:58

Yeah, he dis defines this sort of asceticism as quote, learning to transform all our vital energy into love. And he says its purpose is to divest oneself of surplus weight and spiritual fat. It is to dissolve in the waters of baptism, in the water of tears, all the hardness of the heart, so that it may become an antenna of infinite sensitivity, infinitely vulnerable to the beauty of the world and to the sufferings of human beings, and to God who is love, who has conquered by the wood of the cross. What do you like about that?

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Who wouldn't want that?

unknown 35:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

First of all, I love the you know getting rid of surplus weight and spiritual fat.

SPEAKER_06 35:47

We don't think about spiritual fat very much.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:49

So what do you like about it?

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Um or what do you think is Well that that we often think of like the getting rid of is a as loss. Whereas this acknowledges it, yes, there there is a sort of loss that's happening, but the the way in which um it gives us the capacity for infinite sensitivity, infinitely vulnerable to the beauty of the world. So that like who wouldn't want that? But it's also true that the more sensitive you are to the beauty, you're also sensitive to the suffering of human beings.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Yeah, I like that. Which is very Christological.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

That's why he yeah, that's why he brings in the the wood of the cross. Is that's yeah, that's the image of Jesus, is this God opening God's self up to this all the full range of the sensitivities of human being. Yeah. And that's that's what we're after, that's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_04 36:42

So I mean, that's all right.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Yeah, whatever. That's fine. The next quadrant is kind of the I think one of the easier ones as well.

SPEAKER_04 36:53

Easier for us to to kind of comprehend.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Yeah, and so the representative I have for the external active is uh the rule of Saint Benedict, which is uh is a classic. It's about the sixth century, I think.

SPEAKER_06 37:06

Can you say a little bit about what the external active, like what kind of stuff is found in that quadrant?

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Yeah, so what Benedict was after, how can we in community order our lives in such a way where this kind of transformation takes place? So we're not only this transformation can't just take place by getting rid of things, yeah, but then there also has to be discipline and order and structure. But uh, order and structure that I think a lot of people compare to like a lattice that plants grow on. And that's what the rule is is this thing that we're able to kind of structure our lives around for the sake of opening us up to God. So I'll let you read a quote from this is from the very beginning of the rule of Saint Benedict that uh kind of gets at these things.

SPEAKER_06 37:55

Yeah, sure. The Lord waits for us daily to translate into action as we should his holy teachings. Therefore, we intend to establish a school for the Lord's service. In drawing up its regulations, we hope to set down nothing harsh, nothing burdensome. The good of all concerned, however, may prompt us to a little strictness in order to amend faults and to safeguard love. Do not be daunted immediately by fear and run away from the road that leads to salvation. It is bound to be narrow at the outset. But in process of time and growth of faith, when the heart has once been enlarged, the way of God's commandments is run with inexpressible delight of love. Never swerving from his instructions then, but faithfully observing his teaching in the monastery until death, we shall through patience share in the sufferings of Christ that we may deserve also to share in his kingdom. Amen. So much. So what kind of so what kind of actions does Benedict see as uh falling within this rule? Like what kinds of things is he would he suggest fall in this category?

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Yeah, great question. I will, this is a good point to just say there's been a lot of renewal with the rule of Saint Benedict among Protestants and even evangelicals, where they realize in our current culture, like, oh man, we lack a unifying structure that can not just for our own lives, but kind of communal lives. This is not just for monks, in other words. And like even when you go to a Benedictine monastery here, uh like one of our favorite Benedictine monasteries, St. Mynred up in Indiana. Um shout-out.

SPEAKER_06 39:44

I haven't done a shout-out this episode yet.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

It's good. There needs to be at least one shout-out.

unknown 39:49

What?

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Just not too many shout-outs. We should keep track of the shout-outs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:55

We should. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

So they'll even say this is good for us, it's essential for us, the rule is, and it's meant to be adaptable, but this is also something that the world can benefit from. I mean, there's several books that have been written on that. I think Joan Chittister is one of the most famous ones. Her book, Wisdom Distilled from the Daily, is all about how anybody can take the wisdom of the Rule Saint Benedict and apply it to their lives. So to answer your question, though, uh, one of one of the big things is like having fixed hours of prayer. And so the Benedictines have around five fixed hours of prayer, but you can apply that to your life of like there's there's a wisdom to kind of fix your day, the movements of your day to have kind of bookends of morning and evening prayer. Yeah. And there's a whole tradition you can draw on that uh to like what that might look like, but that forms your character, that forms your instincts in powerful ways, these disciplines of prayer. But they also have a famous saying in Benedictine Spirituality, aura et labora, which is ordering your life around work and prayer. And so, what what are these disciplines and these ways of ordering that can kind of open your life up to God? It's making sure that the this external structure is the way in which you're navigating your life and making sure these regular disciplines are just a part of your everyday life. And that has an in fact, that has an impact on your heart, the way you love. And like how he says, you know, the rule is not supposed to be harsh, not supposed to be burdensome. Ultimately is to amend faults and safeguard love, right? And in fact, he even says the in the process of of doing this, it's to enlarge the heart. Again, that's that's uh that's a theme that I think pops up over and over again, and uh to run with inexpressible delight of love.

SPEAKER_06 42:01

Do you think he would include like I'm trying to think some of the like actions that we take in community that safeguard love, amend faults. I'm thinking like generosity, like act actual actionable things. Oh yeah, right, like generosity, hospitality.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Hospitality is a huge benedicting thing. I that's in written into the rule is you not only need to be a community that is has the capacity to take in guests, which they still do, yeah, but even there's a theology written into that that like you are to see the guest as Christ, that that Jesus is hidden in this guest and to treat every guest as if they're yeah, as if they're Jesus himself. Um all right, we gotta keep rolling. So we're getting to uh what's the next quadrant?

SPEAKER_05 42:48

I don't know, you tell me.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Uh so now we're going, so those were those were external. Now we're gonna kind of move to the internal, active. I think the great uh a great example of this is Ignatius of Loyola, his spiritual exercises. Yeah, and these are all meditative exercises that where you are engaging your own imagination to encounter Christ in the gospel, uh, encounter Christ in scripture. And so that's part of the spiritual exercises uh that I think are really important. And then another part of his spiritual exercises is reviewing your day and meditating on your past day or your past week with the eyes of God.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

And like what can you notice in your the movements of your own soul that you might have overlooked from the past day where God might have been at work or where an e He calls it an evil spirit. So, but that's not meant to be like demonic, but like he would call like jealousy or anger or even fear, we mentioned before, is an evil spirit. It's it's an by spirit we mean an animating force. Yeah. And so, in what ways have we been animated by something that's not good? And what, and when have we been animated by something that's good? And what were we doing and paying attention to that? And so he kind of gives guidance and structure about paying attention to these internal movements. It's not just about, again, the external, it's good to have these disciplines that we do, like practicing hospitality, forgiveness, uh praying, fasting, feasting, fasting.

SPEAKER_04 44:31

Um generosity.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Generosity, but it's also about what's going on inside. Are you just forcing certain things? Is there any kind of agitation that we need to pay attention to?

SPEAKER_06 44:40

Because your motivation for any of those external actions can always be even if it's a good action, if it's motivated by something else, yeah, like uh John the Divine says, can it just turn to smoke and burns everybody's eyes?

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Yeah, rival.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Yeah. Uh yeah. So yeah, I think I think that's that's good enough. He he has this language. I don't have the quote in front of me, but he has the language of to notice, to understand, and to take action are the three the threefold dynamic of the spiritual exercises.

SPEAKER_06 45:18

Can you say that again?

SPEAKER_01 45:19

To notice what is happening within the the movements of your own soul.

SPEAKER_06 45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

To understand. So just because you notice anger or notice joy.

SPEAKER_06 45:29

Yeah, it doesn't mean you understand that.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

That means you understand it. And so that's where spiritual direction comes in, where you need somebody to listen alongside of you and help you to discern what those movements mean.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

And how God might be at work and all of those, and then to take action. Like, what are you supposed to do in light of this understanding? So then that pops us back up into the external action. But you can't have that healthy action without that reflection.

SPEAKER_06 45:54

Yeah, having done that work.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Yeah. So I have a great quote to then transition us into probably the coolest section of the internal passage.

SPEAKER_04 46:22

The section I don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

It is the hardest. And it's the most mysterious. It's the most mystic of all mystics of writings. They usually camp out here because it is the hardest. Yeah. But before we go there, um, the kind of to transition. So this dot, uh, this is from The Cloud of Unknowing. Is that not a great title of a book?

SPEAKER_02 46:44

It is.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

It's anonymous. It's written like in the 12th century, I think. Um, The Cloud of Unknowing. So the writer is this is a classic text where if you're into mindfulness, if you're into contemplation, uh, you might have heard of uh Thomas Keating and centering prayer. So this text is kind of the primary text that they draw that wisdom from. So if you're into Buddhism and you're wondering like, why doesn't Christianity talk about some of this stuff? Well, they do.

SPEAKER_04 47:16

Uh it was just a long, long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

It's just a long time ago, yeah. Well, like people like Keating uh really brought it back to people's kind of awareness. So uh so this it's it's a little bit of a longer quote, but I think it's worth it because he's trying to talk about this movement from being inside of your own head and thinking to this act of contemplation, which is really hard to name and talk about, but uh I think his language is at least trying to point at this. So we're really getting into now this map where we have to be guided, where the guide is pointing, he's not describing, if that makes sense. He's gesturing to kind of get you to a point where you can see something that can't be described and articulated. So and he's gonna talk about this work, and this work is this notion of contemplation that is not thinking thoughts per se, but more of paying attention and being aware of God for the sake of God's self. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:22

This is from chapter three of the cloud of unknowing. This is the work of the soul that pleases God most. You yourself purified and made virtuous, much more by this work than by any other. Yet it is the easiest exercise of all, and most readily accomplished in a soul that is helped by grace and the felt desire. Do not hang back then, but labor in it until you've experienced the desire. For when you first begin to undertake it, all that you find is a darkness, a sort of cloud of unknowing. You cannot tell what it is, except that you experience in your will a simple reaching out to God. This darkness and cloud is always between you and your God, no matter what you do, and it prevents you from seeing him clearly by the light of understanding in your reason, and from experiencing him in sweetness of love and your affection. So set yourself to rest in this darkness as long as you can, always crying out after him whom you love. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

So yeah. Uh it really is hard to kind of grasp.

SPEAKER_05 49:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

I think you were wondering earlier what what is contemplation? Um and again, this is where we get very Buddhist. And it's like, oh, uh if I tell you what contemplation is, that's what it's not.

SPEAKER_04 49:54

Thomas Merton's book, uh New Seeds of Contemplation, has a whole chapter basically about what it's not. Yeah. I think it's a I remember the first time I read that and I was like, no, but what is it?

SPEAKER_01 50:05

Right. Yeah. So just tell me. I think what at least the cloud of unknowing is trying to get at is this posture before God where you are attempting to find within your own soul a love for God, for God's own self. And so are you opening yourself up to love God with that same love, which means are you loving God for what God can give you? And so what John of the Cross and Cloud of the Unknowing will often say is like a lot of times, oh, we want knowledge, we want un uh we want certainty. And so sometimes it's like we we start loving knowledge of God as opposed to just God, God's self, or we love the experience uh that we get within our uh emotions, and those are good, but it's just like but ultimately then we're we're loving an effect more than we're loving God, God's self. Yeah, and so if you really want to get at this eternal pure love, that is Ilya Delio might say, is what is what is powering the universe, uh is at the heart of the Big Bang, right? Love, uh this integrative force. Well, the purest form is can you love completely selflessly? And so the act of contemplating of just reaching out to God and love and just being in that posture is darkness, but there are these moments where you you realize it, but you can only realize it when you are reaching after God with that kind of pureness uh of love. And you're not you're not wanting God to give you understanding, you're not wanting God to give you clarity, you're not wanting God to give you money, food, satisfaction. Because ultimately, yeah, what we see in Jesus is that, oh, God is in solidarity with us, there's nothing that we can give God in return that God needs.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

That that's not what is motivating God. So if if that's not what's motivating God to reach out to us, right, then what is it? Oh, well, it's just this that it's God's own character, which is pure love that wants nothing in return. So can you can you find that within yourself? And really you you kind of can't, but you can, but what you end up finding, and this is where we get into the end, really into the internal, is like, oh, when you find it, that's God has already given it to you. That love is already, we all, every human being has that capacity, right? Because God is already putting that in us, and all we do is we we find that small little flame that's within us that is that pure love, and then we we orient it back to God.

SPEAKER_02 53:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Uh so sometimes god contemplation is talked about in terms of paying attention, yeah. Which it is, but the but it's it's paying attention with this fire of of love. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 53:21

It seems to me like you need those three other quadrants to make this one possible. Right. I I don't know. I feel like this one hinges on having those other ones being like uh what being centered in those other ones as well.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 53:39

Um in a way that the other ones I feel like I don't know. Does that make sense? It does. It feels it feels different to me than the other quadrants.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

Yeah. And so the history of kind of Christian spirituality will sometimes talk about there are these three phases. A phase of purgation, which purgation is sort of like purifying, purging. That's where we get it. So purgation is that we're letting go of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

The next phase is illumination, and then the final phase is union. So that you'll see that pop up in a lot of mystics, those three different aspects. And then also kind of buried in there is uh kind of a pursuit after the virtues, which is also in that kind of active, active place. Well, I think that that that brings us through them all. It's pretty good. We made it. We made it. Uh so if congrats if you're still listening. Where do you want to camp out? Do you want what would you you mean for our next episode? For our next episode. So we've basically, you know, we've got we've laid a lot of really stout groundwork.

SPEAKER_02 54:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

Um, if we were anything that we've talked about, any of these quadrants, uh, what is like one idea we could you you might be most interested, just off the cuff.

SPEAKER_04 54:59

Why do you do this to me?

SPEAKER_01 55:02

Well, I want to know your honest answer. But yeah, yeah, I freak you out when I ask.

SPEAKER_06 55:06

I mean, I want to talk more about the internal passive. I know like the contemplation one, because I I want to know. I I mean, I know I can't know. That's that's the whole thing. But talk maybe talk about like what are some of the things that we can do in in these other quadrants, cultivate in these other quadrants that opens opens us up to be receptive, yeah, to be in a place where we can kind of experience that.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:35

So I I would love to talk about that more.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:38

Well, I think I'm I'm particularly interested in that quadrant too, because I can see, even though I don't know if I've ever experienced it, I can see how it would make all these other quadrants come to life in a way that I don't know if I've expi ever experienced. Does that make sense? Like I like like the idea of gener like, okay, thinking about like external active, right? Like generosity, forgiveness, mercy. Thinking about taking actions like that when you have had this experience of God that is so pure where you're just yeah, I don't know. That like that would change how you how you feel about those, how you think about them, how you do the, you know.

SPEAKER_01 56:21

Yeah. Transforms everything.

SPEAKER_06 56:23

Yeah, yeah. I'm pretty uh I'm pretty interested in that.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

And so uh, I mean, our text this past Sunday was the road to Emmaus. Yeah. And what's beautiful about that is they realize when they look back, oh, we have encountered Jesus. Jesus is gone. Yeah. But oh man, we were encountering him back there, right? Weren't our hearts strangely warmed? Weren't our weren't our hearts burning within us when we were having this conversation, but they didn't realize it in the moment. And I think that's the important thing, is I think every human being can look back over their life and their moments when they absolutely were in this this area of passive contemplation. And sometimes in the moment we're not aware of it, but when we look back, we're like, oh yeah, I was being affected in a good way. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and how can we be more proactively aware and use those moments to kind of reinforce how we hit these other areas uh of our life? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:27

Yeah. So let's talk about that next time.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

Sounds good. I think what we can do is we can dip into uh maybe Teresa of Avala and uh John of the Cross. They were actually friends.

SPEAKER_06 57:39

That must have been fun. That would have been fun to see them interacting. Yeah, yeah. Do you think they had good senses of humor?

SPEAKER_01 57:47

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. There's writings of John of the Cross, how he acted. Yeah. And apparently all of the young monks wanted they wanted to go on walks with John of the Cross because he was so playful. And when you read his writings, sometimes some of his writings are pretty dark, you know. Uh, because I mean he literally wrote the Dark Knight of the Soul. And uh there's this one story where he sees a small statue of like uh Madonna and child, little baby Jesus, and he just starts laughing and he picks the statue up and just starts dancing around the courtyard. Spontaneity! Yeah, just how can you not like that guy?

SPEAKER_04 58:31

I totally see you doing that.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

And you know what? That's like that's when when people talk about the laughing Buddha, you know, there's a certain kind of lightness of soul that uh some of these people have.

SPEAKER_05 58:43

So well, I'm excited. That'll be good.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

And that's another episode of The Questing Soul. Thanks to Hannah for asking questions and bringing the beauty, Daniel Silliman for production, Daniel Cooper for Interstitial Music, and you, dear listener, for tuning in to another episode of the Questing Soul.

SPEAKER_04 59:26

This is awesome radio. Oh, it's also not radio. Dang it. I'm like a I'm like an eighty year old man. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

I'm gonna keep that quote at the very end.