Purpose And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

No. Hello. Um, and this is another one of our fireside conversations that I'm having with people in academia who identify in some way as being neurodiverse. My aim is to hear their personal experiences and to hear what their journey has been. This being the case, the terminology or the wording may not will be theirs and based on their experiences I will be describing their personal journey. They may not use the terminology or expressions that you who are listening use, but that's not important. As I want to hear the authentic story and the authentic voices in which they feel comfortable. I want us all to learn from their life experiences in their own voices. Okay, so hello and welcome. Would you like to tell us a bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Sure. Well, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Um entirely my pleasure. Thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Okay, so I'm uh Iro Donya. Um, I work as a principal teaching fellow at Imperial College London, and my background is as a cognitive behavioral neuroscientist. Um yeah, I mean, I'm not sure what to ever say when I have to introduce myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

It's a hard question, isn't it? Yeah, it's probably the hardest question.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

I know, I know. It's just because I think my role is a little bit weird in that I do have a background in uh cognitive behavioral neuroscience. Um, and I specialize in particular and I'm interested particularly in neurodivergence, specifically when it comes to how neurodivergent individuals learn within a higher education environment. So talking about abstract learning, I'm even more interested in how these individuals learn within STEM disciplines, which is something that my institution specializes in. Um but I'm also neurodivergent myself. So a lot of what I do um and the research questions that I'm interested in come from my own personal struggles and lifetime of woes in trying. Yeah, yeah. Because it it certainly does feel like it sometimes. Um, but basically, yeah, it a lot of how I have approached my academic training over the years and my life in general um has influenced the the sort of course that my research and my my work has taken at the moment. So um, yeah, it's a bit of an odd space to occupy. Um I'm kind of great.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

So your academic journey has followed your life journey. So yeah, and you're your basic Imperium there.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Okay, how long have you been there for?

SPEAKER_01 2:36

I have been there for nine years, which um I it hadn't occurred to me up until I actually had to think about it. It's been that long. So since 2016, I joined Imperial straight after my PhD. Um, and I started off as a junior academic, as a teaching fellow, and slowly progressed, um, gruelingly progressed, perhaps is a more appropriate term, um, up to my current role, which is that of principal teaching fellow, which is essentially a fancy term for um an academic who has a lot more admin to do on their page.

Defining ADHD And Lived Symptoms

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah, I know I know you read, yes. Excellent, thank you very much. Okay, so um starts with um the fundamentals, really. So, how would you describe yourself in terms of your neurodiversity?

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Huh. So, my my official diagnosis is uh combined type ADHD, um, which is a very abstract term, I think. And I've not quite, even though I know physiologically and biologically and psychologically what it means on paper, it's still uh you know a world of wonder with each waking day and where where this condition is going to take me. Yeah. Um yeah, so that that's my personal experience of neurodivergence. Um, it's essentially a term that means that my attention is difficult to prioritize. Um, I think there's often a misconception, particularly when it comes to ADHD, where um it is often thought of a condition where um we don't pay attention that much, but the the reality and the truth is that we pay attention to everything at all times, which makes it very, very difficult to sort of pinpoint and focus and maintain concentration on one particular thing. Um and the combined type, which is the specific type that I've been diagnosed with, which I think is the most common type actually, um, as well, um, also shares some of the hyperactive symptoms. So there's a lot of restlessness that could be internal restlessness, so kind of feeling a little bit anxious or a little bit um quite a lot anxious, overwhelmed oftentimes, um, but also physical as well. So some people tend to fidget quite a bit. Um, I tend to fidget, and I notice that the older I get, the more pronounced these things tend to be, the more kind of physical symptoms. Um, I, you know, people have described this as stimming. I don't know if everybody is aware of what this might mean, but it's essentially movements, repetitive movements or actions that people tend to do when they're looking to self-soothe in a way. Um, I don't know. Anytime I've done any of my repetitive movements, I feel no soothing whatsoever.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

It's just to keep things going. Foot tapping fit into stimming.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Um, yeah, yeah. So foot tapping, or I think fitched him with your fingers. I tend to wear a lot of rings as well, and I constantly play with them as well, particularly when I have to be in back-to-back um meetings with no break, um, or playing with your hair, or tapping, doodling sometimes, um, playing with pens, clicking pens on and off, which can be quite frustrating. Um, yeah, so anything, any sort of repetitive movement that we do, and sometimes we don't even realize we're doing it. Um, I often catch myself, especially when I'm waiting for the tube, for example, I tend to sway back and forth and I don't realize I'm doing it until um, I don't know, and then become suddenly very aware I'm doing it. So it's very, very bizarre. Um, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

That's that's that's a really good explanation. Uh thank you. Um because um it's very much ADHD is bes very much often seen as being um I don't know if it's like technology, but the mostly male, young boy in class not being able to sit still and getting into trouble on the basis of that. And that's kind of that must be the combined thing because you've got a teacher talking at them and they're trying to concentrate on there, but then there's a dog running past the window, which is automatically suddenly the the center, then they come back and they've missed something, and then there's the kind of the like yeah, kind of general pace going on.

Gender, Stigma, And Underdiagnosis

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Um just starting my um degree studies as well, the conception was that ADHD is something that is over-diagnosed, particularly in young boys in America. Um, and these boys ended up being over medicated for no reason. Apparently, that was the sort of you know, the sideline discussion. Um, and it manifested as, you know, these boys not being able to sit still in class, like constantly getting off their seat, walking around, being hyperactive. And the reality is there's so many different versions of how ADHD can present itself in. Um, and there is a bit of a gender element as well. I mean, there's a difference in how a lot of these symptoms manifest with girls and with boys growing up and how they change over time. Um, so yeah, I mean, we know a lot more about how these sort of symptoms present themselves now. And I think a lot of this research has been done, you know, in the past 10 years or so. So it's relatively new. We often even hear that, you know, it's overdiagnosed now because there's a lot of people like me, you know, that have sought um like an official diagnosis quite late in life rather than being diagnosed in childhood. Um, and there is a little bit of a, I'm not sure if stigma is the right word, but skepticism, I think, with the amount of the volume of diagnoses that we see. Um, I don't know what necessarily to think about this. I think it's with any kind of thing that catches on or you know, grabs a lot of awareness and attention very quickly, um, there's always a little bit of skepticism. Um I don't know. And I I tend to kind of think of it in terms of how it was with things like homosexuality, for example, being illegal in the 50s, and then as soon as that was taken away, suddenly a lot more people felt safe and comfortable coming out and you know, being their whole selves. So I kind of see it as a sort of similar thing, um, which is great that a lot more people feel more comfortable to kind of at least look into why certain things or certain aspects of their behavior or how they go about the world impact them. Um, and if that means that there's a lot more um diagnoses of things like ADHD and autism in particular, particularly in women as well, that are chronically underdiagnosed with anything, not necessarily just neurodivergence, yeah, um, then so be it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

So so the lower diagnosis um amongst women, is that um is that a thing? Okay, no, let's just ask. Why is that? So try to suggest an answer.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Gosh, um, many, many reasons, I would think. Um, most of them I would say social more than anything else. I mean, there's a lot of discourse in you know, all sorts of kind of social science literature around how girls are socialized from a young age, how they are kind of given slightly different types of input on what is expected of them in terms of behavior and presentation. Um, and a lot of the times, behaviors that would be more frequently condoned or accepted coming from a um a toddler or or a young boy or an adolescent boy wouldn't necessarily be uh condoned or perceived as acceptable if it came from a girl. Um now this is a bit of a sweeping generalization, and you know that I I don't necessarily like this sort of thing, but it is it is an observable effect that I mean women do tend to be socialized slightly differently, slightly, quite a bit differently, I would say, than their male counterparts. Um I think a lot of that comes from from that. Yeah. Um yeah, at least definitely for for my generation, that was certainly a thing. I mean, I don't ever recall being any research specifically looking at gender differences in neurodivergent conditions um from, you know, definitely not before the two the early 2000s, but even in the mid-2000s as well. It's something that's slowly kind of gaining momentum now as we understand more about the biology and the physiology of neurodivergent conditions um that makes us look at differences in symptomatology as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Okay, so um so potentially uh are you you okay with the the the the concept of masking?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. In a way, girls are forced to super mask. Um yeah, I mean they're already masking to an extent in being what social society suggests they should be.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

I think so. And that certainly has been my experience. I mean, there was a lot of overcompensating for things that came naturally to me. So what we now or what I now see as typical ADHD symptoms or presentation, I would make a very conscious effort to not let them, you know, come out or not let them be perceived by other people as I was growing up. And again, I'm going by my own experience and by what I know from you know friends and colleagues who have a similar diagnosis and have similar um lived experiences as well. But yeah, I mean, double masking or super masking or however you want to call it is is definitely some kind of experience as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

They're they're trying to behave as they're taught a girl's supposed to behave, and also trying to behave like they're taught a new typical person would behave. So they kind of I think, yeah. So I think that's the whole blender of um not being themselves.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Yeah, or there's always a sort of I don't know, kind of unspoken perception that you we must not let it show that you know we're struggling or things are overwhelming, because the moment I think there's a perception that the moment that this comes out, the automatic um belief is that oh that person's just not good enough or they're not qualified to be doing what they're doing. And certainly that that was my experience, not because anybody necessarily made me feel this way, um, but even when um I started my my job at Imperial, the first I would say three to four years, I was very, very frantically and consciously trying to at least appear that everything was under control, even if you know that meant that in the background I had, you know, sleepless nights of trying to catch up with impending deadlines and and publication deadlines and and all sorts of submission deadlines that I had to do, or everything and anything um that was on my schedule at the time. Um, but on the surface, you know, it looked like I was doing everything okay, you know, that I was coping, even though the actual experience of it was far from it, I would say. And the result of that was uh gosh, what the result? I don't know. Um I wish I could say burnout, because that would mean that you know it came to a head, and that led me to some sort of stunning realization of how it's interrupted. But no, no. Um yeah, I mean, exhaustion is kind of like a uh a constant, isn't it? Because everything is exhausting, especially when you have a PhD. Like, you know, even the day-to-day, you know, basic existence, let alone existing and having to maintain a full-time job, and in my case, um having a young child as well that you have to bring up and and try to kind of turn into a an a relatively functioning human being. Um you know, everything's exhausting. But I think with with ADHD, there's I don't know. I I feel and have felt for a while that it's like you're kind of constantly on the verge of burnout, but it never actually happens. So every day it's like you're teetering on the edge a little bit. You're just about making sure that everything gets done, at least the ones that are more crucial. Um, and then you just go to bed and you pass out, and then you wake up the next day and you do it all over again. You know, that's the that's the thing. Um, so you're asking me what it's led to. I don't know. Um a continuation of this. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah. Okay, so back to you.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Okay, so um, so you you you've got a diagnosis. So um how how did that change things for you once once you receive that diagnosis?

Diagnosis, Imposter Feelings, And Legitimacy

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Um yeah, I mean, at the point where I got my diagnosis, it didn't necessarily change that much because I was already pretty aware. You know, perhaps from my job and from dealing with uh neurodivergence as a topic anyway, I was pretty confident that this is what it was. Um I think it gave me a sense of legitimacy, and mostly in terms of the research that I'm doing. So I feel a little bit better placed and can perhaps more confidently advise or think about or discuss things from a neurodivergent person's lived experience point of view, which is definitely useful. Um at a personal level, I don't think it necessarily changed that much. Um the the kind of bigger change for me was around the time that I was possibly part way through my PhD studies, where I was kind of starting to think, oh, maybe something's not quite quite right. You know, I'm not I don't seem to be working the same way that other people are working. Um, I don't seem to be having the same sort of priorities or being able to manage my time, or even, you know, because uh studying for a PhD is an extremely stressful, ongoing, um, I don't know, sense of guilt. That's I don't know, that's how I would define it. So if you're not doing something you're you know, you're doing terribly. Um, I don't know. It it kind of gave me a little bit of time to think about why it is that I work in the way that I do and be a little bit more kind to myself. And I'm saying this without necessarily believing it. I don't know. So you you you felt allowed to be kind, but you weren't necessarily kind of I I felt like okay, on paper, this now means that there's a reason that things are the way they are, but then always in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, oh, but is it is it really the case though? Am I it is it not that I'm just terrible at what I do? Could that not be it? You know, that sort of second guessing imposter syndrome mentality. Um but yeah, that that kind of second guessing voice is slowly becoming quieter and quieter. So perhaps that's one one good thing that having a a diagnosis helped with.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

That's interesting coming from someone who is so aware of of the area and an understanding of it that um you still had that kind of is it in the back of your mind.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Definitely, definitely. All the time, all the time I'm thinking, oh, okay, because at the moment I'm considering, oh, perhaps do I want to try medication or kind of see how that goes? Because so far I haven't I haven't um been on any medication at all. But just thinking about this always could has like a back chat of oh, but what if I'm not, and and things are going to be terrible, and then you know, this is all gonna fall apart, and then there's something terrible, something else terribly wrong with me, and I need to figure out what that is. Do I have time to figure out what that is? Everything, you know, everything seems like such a hassle. That's what it is, that's what it feels like.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

That makes sense. That makes sense. Um, talking about education, did you would you have you thought considering it?

Considering Medication And System Barriers

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yeah, I think at this point I would be, just because, especially more recently, my role has become a lot more demanding, I have a lot more responsibilities, and now I really start to feel the the that I'm not necessarily super able to keep everything in check. There's things are starting to slip, and I'd like them not to slip. I have a lot more things that I want to do that I want to feel as prepared as possible to do them. So I figured I would give it a go. Um, yeah, yeah. So that's something to come. Um I'm currently on the wait list for um titration, so we'll see. We'll see how that goes. Um, but yeah, I figured give it a try. Everything else hasn't worked, let's see.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Yeah, there's quite quite a waiting list, I think, isn't there? I think for that.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah, it's about six months for me now at the moment. So let's see.

High-Pressure Anecdotes And Last-Minute Coping

SPEAKER_00 19:37

It's craziness, isn't it? Okay, um great. So um you've shared a few already, but is there a specific anecdote or story, either positive or negative, or a combination of both that you could share with us?

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Oh god. Um I don't uh there's too many to mention, um, and that's the problem with ADC. Every life, every, every life, every day is a new is an anecdote. Another anecdote. Um I think perhaps this is a bit of a negative anecdote, but maybe was the first point in my adult life where I thought, okay, there's something, you know, that's not necessarily there's something about me that's not necessarily the same as what I see in my peers. That was in my first year as an undergraduate student. Right. And I had just, I was quite young when I so I'm I'm originally from Greece. So I came over when um I finished school straight to to study at university. I was still 17 and a half at the time, um completely dysregulated, you know, as as most 17 year olds um are. But perhaps with me it was like a notch more than the ordinary thing. I don't know. I think about this now. But as a first year undergraduate student, I just did not get that you had to physically attend your lectures at university to be able to complete the course. I was quite convinced that I could just do it all myself in my own time as I wanted because I had been quite successful at blacking things throughout my school career. I didn't think this would be any different. I don't know if you know as perhaps a little bit of arrogance and over self-assurance or anything like that. And also not necessarily realizing what was expected of me. So I hardly set foot at uni, at least for the first term, which led to a very stern letter being sent to me saying you are now going to be withdrawn a few more from your course because you've not attended. Yeah, at which point um I panicked and I went to see my personal tutor and I said oh no no no I'm here please don't kick me out. How can I prove that I'm I'm engaged with a course and I could do it and they and my personal tutor said well you need to submit all of the coursework um for the past term um in like not not the next day the day after so I had like a day and a half.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

That's very generous of him.

Self-Criticism, Procrastination, And Grace

Daily Frictions People Don’t See

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Sure thing sure thing and I did it I wrote every single thing. Yeah every single thing submitted it and managed to stay in my course I have no idea what I put in those assignments. If I read them now I'm sure I would just burst into flames or something that must have been terrible but you know I've just that panic led me to do a term's worth of work in a day and a half and just send it in. And the other anecdote again from my um undergraduate degree was with my dissertation which I wrote two days before the deadline I had done the research I had my data analyzed I just hadn't written anything because I just okay just for the prejudices now you're not recommending this. Absolutely not please please kids save yourself the stress you do not need from our mistakes. And I say this now and it sounds so surreal and ridiculous to me but at the time it was just it didn't occur to me that this was not you know okay to do or this was weird you know or bizarre but definitely with like things like that it just slowly I think I started to to catch on that oh maybe that's not a very healthy way of of dealing with with life. Yeah yeah so that's that's an anecdote I have many if you want but that was I I mentioned this and I've said this to other people whenever I talk about ADHD particularly with my students I make a point of saying this just because I think with ADHD in particular there's so much self-criticism and self-doubt and you know your inner critic voice is particularly strong. So I just want them to see that okay you can mess up many many times that that's not the end of the world there's always something you could do um not not to say that I recommend what I did for that particular situation but you know just to kind of ease the tension a little bit and to to make me and I guess others like me appear more human especially now when they see me in a in a kind of senior academic role um you know you wouldn't have thought that you know I struggled a lot studying but that's why I think it's really good to hear students for students to hear you talking because they can see that things are achievable. Yeah it's learning those little hacks those little ways of dealing with things and learning what doesn't work like doing the dissertation at the last minute may work on a superficial level but actually in the greater depth it's um not necessarily the way it's not a good strategy not a good strategy at all and and and everything that you know comes along after the effect as well you know the guilt um the sense of you know oh I should have done this a long time ago regret all sorts of things which makes any period of procrastination or anything like that seem so much worse than it actually is and I think you know I'm thinking back to your question before about what has changed since my diagnosis it's things like this that I tend to give myself a little bit more grace for knowing that this is more forgiving. Yeah a little bit a little bit I haven't quite gotten to like full forgiveness but it's you know slow no no but having it back in mind that's okay I'm not gonna condemn myself too much for this. Yeah yeah yeah is um is a powerful thing yeah and just accepting that different people have different ways of working and that's not a bad thing. Not everybody has to learn or develop in the exact same way or have the same trajectory you know yeah a lot of the academic choices I've made because of you know all that kind of self-criticism and internal monologue perhaps I wouldn't have made if I was as gracious with myself back then. So I went on and did two masters before I started my PhD just because just to prove to myself that I wasn't completely stupid and incapable of being taught. Well yeah so and that's a lot of money and time it is it is wasted because it it was interesting because I like my topic but um I didn't need to to do that I'm thinking probably okay where time is moving on here. Yes can you describe a way that your your ADHD affects you in a day-to-day life which would surprise somebody I think we'll cover this a bit but any specific ways that people don't perceive ADHD being impactful um there's a couple of things that relate to to some of the more kind of well understood symptoms of ADHD one would be with like um the difficulty in receiving criticism in in a normal or healthy way normal perhaps is not the best word. Yeah um so things like with work for example you know getting um you know the reviewers responding to a paper and asking you to make some amendments you know that it's not normal for your initial reaction to be rage and fury that there perhaps there is some merit to what they are saying. It's taken a lot for me to kind of train myself to to see that or um you know if somebody makes a comment in a meeting um like a completely offhanded comment and then I'll be thinking about this nonstop for a good long while um ruminating I guess um you said a typical day I mean the typical it's it's always the same. So this kind of internal monologue nonstop uh thinking about five different things at the same time whilst you have two songs playing in the back of your mind as well and thinking about specific clips from a movie that you've rewatched 50 000 times because it kind of makes you feel a certain way that's that's a typical that's a typical day.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

And also that constant nagging what have I forgotten?

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Yeah well you see I don't really I don't really do that. I don't ponder what have I forgotten it's just um because I completely forget that I've forgotten something.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

No, no that's what I mean I'm not gonna remember something therefore I must have forgotten something kind of idea.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Yeah and a typical thing for me is like if you ask any of my friends or my colleagues as well um and they would have said some or mentioned something to me something relatively important five times and I completely forget so I then end up asking them the same thing um you know and then and they get a bit annoyed that they say oh I've told you this like five times or the fact that I have to ask my best friend for her home address even though I've been there millions of times.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

There's so much sectionality with dyslexia here.

Pet Peeves And Unhelpful Advice

Advocacy, Boundaries, And Teaching Practice

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Yeah yeah or directions as well that's a big thing for me I was trying to to cycle from my home to to a location about 20 minutes away from from mine yesterday and this is a route I've done thousands of times thousands of times but I never trust myself to remember so I always have to kind of have little stops and check the map and then I'll check the map I'll look at it and then as soon as I put my phone away I've forgotten what it says and then I have to check again. So that's a good like 10 minutes of my time yes double checking or triple checking basic things that I should already know. That's a typical day yeah yeah that's pretty much every day okay so kind of linking with that a little bit what's what's a pet peeve so that people say to you which you think oh please don't when people ask me to keep a to-do list no I will not keep a to-do list it does not work for me at all I can make little notes and add like sticky notes on my screen so I don't forget like really important things but a to-do list I mean I will I've tried it it's it's just it doesn't work I do it and then I put it away never for it to be seen again and then I start a new one or if they ask me oh to journal things I don't have time to journal anything I hardly have time to exist as it is on a basic level I cannot be faffed with journaling things. Yeah or to calm down or to not be too intense in conversation I get excited about something yeah no none of that that doesn't really can't you just sit down for a bit oh no no no but no I I have a I have a list by my door to remind me to take things home oh but as I say to my colleagues I need a list here to say remember to look at the list by the door well you know how how's that working out for you it's I every time I forget to look at the lists it's good for steps though up and down the stairs well good see that's the thing so there's you know the you know there's uh side effects that I gotta look for the wins okay yeah look for the wins there's always a silver lining I like to think that my you know you know if if I happen to entertain my friends by them getting annoyed or kind of saying oh Arrow forgot again what we told her 50,000 times then hey I brought some joy in someone's life you know there you go there you go as a good always bring joy okay well one last question we've got um a few minutes before Zoom's gonna kick us off um do you have any advice or insights that you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_00 31:25

I'm sure you've got loads but try and choose one.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Advice um I guess advice for somebody looking to do what we do so go down an academic route maybe is just to be um or to try be as confident to advocate for yourself and be upfront. I found that works out well for me especially now I don't know if that's because I am quite senior now so with that seniority comes a little bit more confidence in a lot of ways. But if they can just be upfront of how they prefer to work and what people should expect. Because I've heard that can go a long way. So now I will say if anybody wants to collaborate with me and somebody I haven't worked before I will say up front look I have ADHD that means I work um in a different way I may go off the radar for a couple of days but then I'll come back to you with a finished thing. Don't pester me that sort of in a nice way in a nice way um and I find you know being upfront about how I do things myself makes the other person a little bit more open about what they also expect. So we can reach a sort of mutual agreement. So confidence in advocating for what you need to be able to perform your job or engage with your studies. And that's that's great make more people more aware of individual differences and how neurodivergence is that's that's a really good answer.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

I think uh that's something I'm hoping to achieve for this is um getting people to understand that conversation is a good thing. Yes definitely there's a lot of understanding or wanting to understand out there.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Yeah just to be more open especially you know if you're teaching young students undergraduate students you know just I say to my students all the time look you know I'm I've got ADHD that means if I'm teaching if I'm giving you a lecture and I can hear you know conversations going on in the background I'm very likely to lose my train of thought so please you know if you don't feel like paying attention just find a discrete way of doing it. And that that tends to work really well just you know say what you need and people yeah that's a really nice note to finish on ah thanks thank you so much for your time this has been fascinating I've learned a lot thanks Damien thank you for having me it's been an absolute pleasure