Colour, Perception, And Finding Your Own Way

Curiosity can carry you across disciplines—and back to yourself. We sit down with a researcher who began in biomedical sciences and pivoted into psychology and colour philosophy, guided by a mind that fixates deeply, senses keenly, and asks relentless questions about how we see the world. What starts as a story about colour perception becomes a study in boundaries, mentorship, and the quiet ergonomics of a neurodivergent life.

You’ll hear how sensory overload makes conferences feel like battlefields, why email-first networking can be a lifeline, and how routines—down to the comfort of the same pasta or a newfound love of Jazz apples—create space for real thinking. We talk masking and unmasking, the mentor who helped swap performance for presence, and the practical calculus behind diagnosis: when labels clarify patterns, and when supportive environments make them optional.

Transcript

Yesesi’s Academic Path And Pivot

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hello and welcome to another of our fireside conversations that I'm having with people in academia who identify as being neurodiverse in some way. My aim is to hear their personal experiences and to hear what their journey has been in life and in academia. They not may not be the words or the expressions or the terminology used by those of us listening, but that's not important. As I want to hear the authentic voices in the way that they feel comfortable. I want us all to learn from their life experiences in their own voices. So good morning, Yesesi. Good morning, Damien. Happy to be here. It's great to have you. Um in all transparency, um, I've known Yesesi for a few years now. He was one of our students and then progressed on. So I'm really looking forward to hearing what what he's been up to and um to hear more about his story. So can you start off by telling us a bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Yeah, I mean, I want to start off by saying, well, it's nice that we've still been in connection after so long and you know are doing this. It's really good. Um, so I completed my bachelor's and master's in biomedical sciences in Newcastle Uni in 2023. I have since been doing a PhD in psychology, focusing on colour perception and how how we respond to the environment around us, and the visual environment around us. And then I have also dabbled in colour philosophy, which I might potentially do in my future. So that's another avenue to look into. In color philosophy.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Yes, yeah. That's a bit of a step away from biomedical sciences.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, it seems like it seems like one of those things where it goes down the cliche of, oh, you never use your degree, and I'm quite literally not using most of the skills I learned in my degree.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

But yes, but it depends which skills you're talking about, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah, that's true. Like I did learn a lot in the neuroscience modules, but I'm not pivoting these days. So it's like it's like I but I I kind of wish I could. It was it was one of those things I wish I could do more. Like I don't do web lab stuff anymore. It's mostly thinking and writing up and experimenting with people, but I kind of I kind of do miss some of the those things I've learned in in the degree, which I don't get to do these days.

Considering Neurodiversity And Self-Identification

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Fair enough, fair enough. And you did the four-year um M Psy course, from what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so um okay, so how would you describe yourself in terms of your new diversity? Um, I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

See, this is the thing I have been pondering about recently, and I guess I guess I'd get too hyper fixated on things, uh especially when it comes to like we're academics, right? You know how we ask questions and we get fixated on trying to find answers. So I I have been recently thinking, is that just me being an academic, quote unquote, or is it just something that something that's intrinsic to my personality that I find certain questions very interesting and I cannot stop thinking about them at any given point in time that I just want to find answers for? And it doesn't have to be a of big impact to the world, it's more of an impact to myself. I find certain topics very interesting and I tend to fixate on them, be it academic. Most of them are academic, but some of them are non-academic. So recently I started sword fighting, which was just sword fighting, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

As in a given kind of for white outfit and the mask.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Well, the last kender that you're thinking about, but this is like more like the actual uh this is the actual sword fighting martial arts style. So we we're actually in black. Okay. Yeah, it's all black, and we don't wear helmets and stuff, we don't spar with each other, but it's it's something I've been doing, and it just goes back to like how I get so get so fixated on certain things and want to find certain questions, and that's why I was thinking, oh, could it just be because of neurodiversity? And it's and it was it was also that a lot of my friends have been telling me that oh, maybe you are neurodivergent and maybe you should look into getting a diagnosis. And because in various instances, when I like be in the kitchen, or I'm just talking to my housemates, or like be it in a social situation where I just try bringing up a topic of conversation, they're like, uh, do you think it could be autistic? And I'm like, I don't know, I've never thought about it that much. Okay, so it's one of those.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

So you brought up autism there. Have you kind of uh in your process of um of considering your diversity, have you thought about which I I which diversity you'd be considering that you might be experiencing?

SPEAKER_01 4:47

I think I might fall under the autistic spectrum if I if I were uh if I were near if I were diagnosed or if I if I it would be anything because I like because a lot of people around me study autism, like and I I've learned about the symptoms of it. Like symptoms, sorry, lack of poor language there, but that's right, it's your language, you use your language, yeah. So um, yeah, I just I just start I I looked into what people might experience with autism, and I'm like, I kind of relate to a lot of those experiences, like especially the the sensories, the sensory stuff, and the the I sometimes feel very sociable at times, and at some point I just shut down, I don't want to be around anyone, I become like a house cat. So it's like it's like I have these extremes of of yeah, social behavior and stuff like that, which I kind of which to me, I yeah, I I just it kind of find I find it relatable with some of what people with autism talk about sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Okay, so it's kind of um deep down feeling that you're not you you don't you don't think in the same way as those around you, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Yeah, I guess so. It's because sometimes like even even as my friendships have developed over time, I have always wondered, like, oh, I've I seem to be changing so much more than the other people around me. And the the the things I think about, the things I am, for example, I talk to some of my friends who I've known since uni, and they're more or less the same. But then I look at myself and I'm like, oh, I I definitely don't relate to that person I was like four years ago, even a year ago. But then I'm always in the process of updating how I think about stuff, and then I keep and then I find that I can't relate to people when things come up, or like just normal things in conversation come up, and then I'm like, Well, could this be because I've just thought about so many things so deeply within myself that I've just completely just moved on to a different person, okay? So that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Something something I've wanted to ask you, and uh this is something I want to ask you for a while, to be honest, is um as we go through the degree and uh getting to know you a bit, um you did a certain presentation which was completely off the wall and so imaginative and so different, but then when you got to stage four, the final year, you became much more I don't know, in line with what was expected. I think. Do you think potentially over the three years, and I'm probably putting words in your mouth here, but it's something I'd like to ask. Do you think you learned to mask a little bit?

Masking, Mentorship, And Authenticity

SPEAKER_01 7:20

I guess so. Yeah, I think I think that's a very interesting question that you asked me because I think over the through the first three, I think the first year, because it was just starting out, I was I just didn't know how to behave around people in a way. But then uh I think I think over and then it just got it just got so much more blown out, I thought putting on a persona, or like you know, as you say, being so over the top and loud and expressive. I thought that was just a way to joke around with it. So that kind of might have been a mask in itself, where I kind of found humor when I when I just tried to dissociate by being so over the top. But then I kind of met my mentor.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Interesting, interesting. So I got the way around in the way you were masking before, and then you felt more free to just express how you really felt.

Sensory Overload And Networking Strain

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Yeah, I guess I guess that might be it, because when I met so uh when fourth year came, I started thinking of okay, I actually like some aspects of research. Then I met my mentor at Newcastle. I'm still very close to her and very connected, yeah. So I yeah, I thought uh yeah, so ever since I met her, I kind of felt like I don't know, there's something just changed in me to put it to put it simply. And uh it's like I just felt okay, this is who I am and this is how I want to be. And ever since then it's been a slow process of removing those masks in a way. Because I thought over my life I thought you feel better, because I I was always concerned we were causing you to mask, but actually never feel I think I think that academic input, like it just really brought out the best in me in many ways. Because over like I think, yeah, over time, even since even since year four and now, I think a lot of me I've been dropping certain masks and certain identities that I've picked up just to be socially acceptable. Now I'm just like I just say what I think and I don't filter anything and I feel more free that way. And okay, in any so I I yeah, I think I've been dropping masks as things have been going.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Um you mentioned sensory before. Yes, kind of you kind of you got sensory, I don't know what the terminology is, but you what what what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

I get very overstimulated by crowds, and okay, like if I'm in a crowded place, the first thing I want to do is get away from there. Like, even if it's if it's like, for example, we I go to conferences quite a lot, and I'm sure you know how crowded they are and how stimulating me people can talk to you all the time, and there's always this expectation to socialize or like network and all that stuff. In my head, I'm always standing there thinking, well, if I wanted to network with someone, I'll just send them an email and talk to them over to Zoom. Yeah, that's my that's my first thought. And then luckily, my supervisors are very like even here at Sussex and uh even my mentor at Newcastle, all of them are very, very understanding of me, like just generally. And so they'll allow me to hide behind them while they socialize and network, and I'm just there listening so I don't miss out.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah, I think networking is is is a massive thing in the for people who are neurodiverts across the spectrum because you're forced to behave in a certain way which isn't necessarily relaxing for you, and it's yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

I find that so causes anxiety a lot. Exactly. It's like it's like that expectation to do something. Like, if I want to talk to someone, I'd rather do it when I feel like it. I don't want to be put in a place where I have to talk to someone. Yeah, yeah, that's just it's one of those. And it's also sounds, sounds as well, yeah. Like loud sounds like being in the train. Being in the train, like all the all the you know, I uh I don't know if you've traveled with within London the underground a lot. I try not to. I think yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, so you get it, yeah. Because of all the yeah, just so overwhelming, and also the high high frequency sounds or like when an ambulance passes, but I just cannot.

Diagnosis Or Not And Consequences

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Okay, that's really interesting. Okay, so um I like to ask about diagnosis, and you've made it clear you've you you haven't been through a diagnosis process.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

No, I have not.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Okay, so but you've mentioned that you might be thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Um I was, yeah, it's just open thought. I was, and this is me just being uh candid here, is uh I don't see what consequence it would have on my life to be diagnosed.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

So that's yeah, that's that's kind of what I see. Like all the people in my life who are close to me already understand me to a level where I don't need to explain anything further to them. They know me better than I do in some ways. And the people who aren't in my life, or the people who choose to leave my life after staying for some time, or if I move away from people after some time, it just means that they couldn't understand me and I couldn't be accommodated in that, which kind of acts like a natural filter in a way. So I just don't see what consequence there would be. Like the only difference would just be okay, now I have a diagnosis, but it's the same things would happen. I don't think anything would change.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

So I guess I guess the issue would be if you moved on to a different sphere or a different environment where potentially you had less of the understanding support that you have now.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Yeah, I think that would be it, but I think I'm very much set to be an I don't think I can I can imagine myself doing anything else, you know.

Light Moment: The Jazz Apple Phase

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Yeah, I think yeah, I'll just yeah, that's my thing for that. Okay, good, good. Okay, so um have you got a a story or an anecdote you'd like to share with us, which um could be negative, it could be positive, it could be just something that reveals a little bit about your life.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Well, yeah, I mean I'll keep this lighthearted because I this happened, yeah. I just I just thought this was this is a funny thing that happened last week. So I found my favorite type of apple to eat. Favorite type of apple?

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Where's your favorite type of apple?

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Jazz apples. Oh, well, I I like a russet. Oh, russet. I've not I've not had that yet. So I've grown up eating royal garlic, that was my go-to familiar. And recently I thought, hey, I'll step out, try different apples. So I tried golden apples, I tried pink lady apples, I found them too sweet, but Grammy Smith was too sour, and then I'm like, well, jazz apple, it's just nice. And it's a good name. Yeah, it's it's quite nice. So I thought I found that to be my favorite apple. So I thought, you know, that's that's a fun thing. Now I'm just gonna buy jazz apples so I get bored of them.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Okay, so this is quite interesting. So you got you got face set favorite foods or textures in terms of what you eat.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

I think I go through phases where I yeah, it's like again, go going back to the fixating thing. Yeah, I find the food I like, I keep eating it as the like I mean, uh, this is just the fruit I like, but like just generally as well. I've been cooking pasta for the last two weeks because I just thought, you know, I like it, I found a recipe that works until I get bought of it. I'm gonna keep making it. Yeah. So I just stick to that, and then I'm like, no, then then one day I'll just avoid it till till I get till it comes back in the cycle again. So I do have phases where I eat very specific food for a long time because I just like it.

Plans, Subtext, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Fair enough. Fair enough. That um very much makes sense to me. Yes. Okay. That's good. Um, I thought something else to ask then, but it's gone now, so maybe we'll come back to it. Well, you can ask me, yeah, you can ask me what comes back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, okay, in your day-to-day life, is there something that comes out of what you think is your neurodiversity, which may not be what's commonly understood about that. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Yeah, I guess I guess I mean I could I could go slightly deeper into this because of it it goes into my day-to-day people interactions. Like, for example, certain things, like certain things people say, certain things people do, they tend to affect me more than what people think they would affect me. I don't know if I'm phrasing it correctly.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

It has a bigger impact than they might think.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, it's something like that. It's like so if it's something like like um trying to think of an example that happened recently, but I've just been home recently, so it's nothing.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Um, so there was an instance where someone said they'll do something in my life, or like someone makes a plan and and then it just cancels all of a sudden because of some reason. And people normally would say, Oh, like when I'm talking to my friends about this, they just say, Oh, it's just a normal thing. People cancel plans all the time. But then in my head, it's it it's like this thing of oh, this was supposed to happen and this was this was written in stone, like this was gonna happen, and now it's not gonna happen. And I have a I have I have been working on it recently, but then it's it's really it's one of those things where I really have where where it's really difficult for me to understand when something is said and then that's not meant in the way it's said, or like subtextual things, like or when someone says something and they don't do it, like there's like two things subtext. I I fail to understand subtext in some situations, or like when people say read the room, I fail, I fail to realize that. But then also I can never get that. And then when someone says when someone says they'll do something and then it's not done, I'm just like, well, it's so easy to say something and then do it, how could you not do it? Because if I say something, I'll always end up doing it. So it's like it's one of those.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, it just makes total sense. So um when you got a set plan and you kind of it's embedded in your mind that this is what's going to happen if that kind of gets disrupted, it's kind of not necessarily a small thing, it might be just in other people's minds it might be insignificant, but for you, it's a change, and that that change is impactful.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Yeah, exactly. It's that's it. You've got it better than I could ever say it. So thank you for that. Yeah.

Fixation As Strength In Research

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Just processing as you as you say, I'm fixing it in my own head. Um, so is there anything anyone can do about that, or is that something that's only we can deal with?

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Do you think I think I need to learn how to deal with that better because I cannot explain I was reading this book recently, actually, which my mentor gave to me for my 25th birthday. And one of one of her had life advice which said, um, don't expect rationality from people.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

So don't express rationality from people.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah, don't expect rationality from people. Yes. It's like I just found that to be so enlightening ever since I picked that up. I was just like, okay, I need to, yes, it would be nice if people could behave in a way that I I deem to be irrational, but rationality itself is a perceived quality, it's not an intrinsic quality that people can have. So um, if people can be rational, that'll be nice. But otherwise, I need to learn to deal with that. I think I especially find it difficult when people, when there's like mixed signals, or like when people say something with a different intent and those kind of things, I'm like, I struggle with that, but I have I've I've recently been coming to terms with okay, that's a reflection of who they are, and it's not gonna change anything about life, it's not gonna change anything about myself. I just need to learn to separate and draw my own boundary in these cases and agree that this is I I need to decide what's deterministic for myself in those cases, instead of relying on the other people to be reliable. So that's what I have been doing more recently, and ever since then it's been like I've been getting better at dealing with it, but I even when even then something like that happens, I'm like, ah, this happened again. It's still it's still like annoying, but you know, it's it's not gonna go away, but it's never gonna go away.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

It might affect you slightly less if you can um build in that defense, I guess.

Colour Perception Questions That Drive The Work

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Yeah, it's like so recently that's that's my thing. I've been I've been drawing my boundaries in most situations. I'm like, this is what I will commit to, and if I'll draw the line at this place, and if it's if if I don't want to feel like crossing it, then it's not my problem anymore. So it's been like that.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah. Um you keep mentioning this mentor who sounds amazing. And if you uh with with all positive things, it's really nice to give people a shout out if you feel able or if Fed's not mind you doing so. So feel free to use the yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Yeah, that's the thing. I just try and I I think I think they would prefer me not using their name in general.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

No, in that case, so they'd prefer to I think I know who it is, and um yeah, you thought you probably do, yeah. Okay, what what would you like to understand better about yourself in terms of this? And you kind of explained that a little bit just now, but um there's anything else you can add to that. I mean, yeah, so I uh I think I think oh sorry, can you repeat that question? Um is there anything you'd like to understand better about the way your mind works?

Parting Insights On Introspection

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Um, I think I think one thing I would like to try figuring out is why I get so fixated over things. And if there is a or like or like why I'm so resistant to change, for example, when there is something. So I think I think I have been working on it and I have been I had I I had been going to therapy a while ago and then the therapist said I just don't need to anymore because I'm I seem to regulate my life well. So I just didn't need to go. But it was interesting to try figuring out like why, like what is shaping this behavior in me? Like, is it something that happened in my life that I'm covering up with specific behavior? Is it something I'm born with? Or is it something I just is it just a default setting in me? But what is causing that default? So both from a scientific perspective, because I do study psychology, yes, and to and also from a from a more sociological perspective, what what around the society makes me do this, or am I so it's it's I I think I think but this is just pure curiosity. I don't see again how this might have a consequence in my life. I might get better at regulating myself in certain situations, but then I don't know, it would just be interesting to know, like it's like as curiosity works, it's just I want to know.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah, so um just to heart back to where we were before, don't you think um potentially some sort of diagnosis might uh help you understand that better? I guess it might, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

That's true. If I were to sit with someone for a while and they say, okay, this these are causing your behavior, that would help. That's true. But I think I agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Speaking in the area you are in terms of study, you kind of get that already, I suppose. So in a way, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

I guess, but I guess I guess I didn't I never thought of it that way. I guess if I did sit with someone in a diagnostic setting where they said these might be the reasons why you behave the way they do, I think that just it kind of solves that clear curiosity and adds a lot of clarity into how into what I choose as my boundaries with life and with people around me.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

But then again, I'm not talking to myself about myself too much in these things, but um when I got a diagnosis for dyslex dyslexia, it um answers a lot of questions.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Questions I kind of knew the answers to, but to have that affirmation uh clinically was quite yeah, I guess it must be helpful. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

I never thought of it. Not pushing that, not pushing that. I mean that would be a thought. Okay, well time's moving on. Um again, we've probably covered this, um, but any pet peeves. Oh, yeah, a lot of them. I was with my super, and I'll give you people can't see your face then, but like your face just whoa exploded on that one.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

I wish I could. Um, yeah. So um this I was I'll give you a small anecdote as well with this as well. So I was with my supervisor last week, and Joe, he's lovely. And uh so I was just we would go to lunch, and then it was rainy that day, and I was telling him, Oh, I got waterproof shoes now, because the one thing I hate the most in life is my feet getting wet in the rain. Okay. And then he's like, he just looks at me and he knows me quite well, and he's very he, you know, we're very close and stuff. So he looks at me and he's like, Yes, Espe, is that the only thing that annoys you? And then I just laughed, and I'm like, Well, loud noises, trains, uh crowds. I just start listing everything, and then then he's like, Yeah, that's more like it. So I guess I do have quite a few pet peeves, but we've already covered quite a few of them.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Yeah, I can see wet feet. You should get yourself some wellies.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah, something like that. I I've recently just got waterproof shoes, and they seem to do the trick. So we'll see what happens. See, we find solutions. We find solutions, that's it, that's how it works. It's like one of those.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Do you think um this is uh an additional thing? Um, do you think your success in the fields that you're in are buoyed up by the way your mind works and your neurodity?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Oh, absolutely, I think so. Because I I mean again, I don't like to compare or like think of how other people might be in the field, so I'll just stick to my experience. I think if I find a question, I will work on it till it's sold. Be that I mean, well, this is it, right? Uh I do you remember that time in uni where I was caught by the security for staying up till two, and that's just because I was in this state where I'm like, okay, I have this question in my thesis that I want to write down, I want to write this correctly. I didn't want to leave until I did, and I was just working on it relentlessly.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

I think I think we need to give context for this. There was nothing illegal going on.

unknown 24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Ceci had just worked really late in the office, was leaving the building, went through the wrong door, and the alarm went off. So it wasn't there was nothing illegal going on. Yeah, it was just two in the morning. Yeah, because you were just hammering away at that question.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah, it was just like it was just something to do with why why our perception of colours tends to stay constant despite the illumination changing. Yeah. And I kept thinking of, I mean, I still don't have an answer for it. So if if I was technically there till I got the answer, I would have been there till now.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

So um, yeah, it's just excellent. And um, you you're gonna answer the eventually answer the one question that always bugs me is when we when I see something I see as blue, does everyone else see it as the same colour? And that's gonna be your your life work is to work that out for me.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

I mean, this is something I really want to try answering in philosophy and in it through my science. And I think that is to me, that is one of the most interesting things that actually got me into the field of so it's like I think there's no way to verify that, but surely there must be a way. And I will just hopefully try finding don't know. Yeah, there's how can we know?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Well, you're gonna tell me, you're gonna work it out someday, just work. Okay, last last question, and it's kind of the stun standard podcast question. Do you have any advice or insights you'd like to share to people listening? You've done that lots already, but anything additional.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

No, none of it, no, none of it was intentional advice. But here's the thing: I I again this is recently I read I don't know where I read I must have seen this. All advice that one person can give, and it's this could be wrong, by the way, but I read that all advice that one person can give is usually self-advice, it means that we're just uh giving advice to uh a past version of ourselves that was going through these things because that's where we learned all the things we could. So any wisdom that we give is usually to our past selves. And ever since I read that, I'm like, well, advice can't surely be universal. It advice is situational, advice is contextual. Someone might be going through something, someone's like, I know for a fact that just because I've experienced something in a way, someone else might not experience the same exact thing in the same way. So I don't know what I could potentially give as advice, but I could just tell people um to introspect. I think I think introspection is a very powerful tool and it kind of reveals a lot to us about who we are. And introspection mixed with a bit of journaling, especially if they're in a if they're in a place that's confusing to them, if there is something they want to try figuring out about themselves. I think really journaling and introspecting why that might be, because normally if we try thinking about anything too deeply, we immediately hit a block that says I don't know, or this cannot go further. So we go, why, why, why, why, and then I don't know. But then if we really work on that I don't know for a while, we usually tend to find some clarity. And that clarity then brings us closer to ourselves, is at least how I experience these things. So I guess that would be my advice, just introspects, really.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Excellent. That's really interesting. Um, we're taking a bit digesting for me, but um, I'll work on that. Luckily, all this is recorded, right? But yes, I think. Yeah, so that's what I'm uh I mean that's the thing. Specific advice for me there. Well, that's kind of amazing. And as always, I've learned a lot more than I thought I would, and I really appreciate it. And thanks for sharing your time with us.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Thank you for having me here. It's been lovely talking about these things.