Marketers in Need of Therapy
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Marketers in Need of Therapy
Words on a Wall Won't Cut It: The Truth About Company Culture
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Are you marketing baked beans… but actually delivering mushy peas? 👀😂
It sounds like a strange question, but Laura Lewis, founder of Culture Chameleon, uses this analogy to perfectly sum up one of the biggest problems lone marketers face: being asked to sell a version of a company that doesn't actually exist on the inside.
In this episode, Emma sits down with Laura for one of the most thought-provoking conversations we've had on the podcast yet 🎙️
They cover everything from why one-word values are doing your business more harm than good, to how toxic culture shows up in your day-to-day, to what lone marketers can actually do when the organisation around them isn't quite there yet.
If you've ever felt like the marketing you're putting out doesn't quite match the reality of working there, this one is absolutely for you 🎙️
Welcome to Mint, Marketers in Need of Therapy. Yes, we joke that we're marketers in need of therapy, but the team stands for so much more. Training, thought leadership, time-saving tips, tools, a team enabling us to thrive as marketers.
SPEAKER_01So hi Laura, welcome to Mint Podcast. We're really pleased to have you here. And what our first question we always ask is a bit about you and how you've got to where you are, and tell us more about Culture Chameleon.
SPEAKER_02So thanks so much for having me. So my background. So I started out in my career as a HR consultant, so HR business partner. So started off in an entry-level business partner role and then worked my way up to looking after the sales force of the organisation that I was working for in kind of more of a business partner role. And I've been there for 12 years and I was finding the kind of struggle of managing kind of childcare and children being ill at the last minute quite tricky. So I decided in a kind of out-of-body experience that I was going to resign. I'd kind of vaguely talked to my husband about it before, but the words just kind of came out of my mouth. And so I resigned and I decided that I was going to do some consultancy work. But I quickly realized that actually, whereas I had the trust in my organisation, having been there for 12 years, that if my child was ill and I needed to take that day to look after them and I would make up the time, that would be fine. I realised that if I was working for a consultancy, that trust wouldn't necessarily be there and that would be harder to manage. So I've got a phrase up in my office, which is around kind of jumping off a cliff and finding your wings on the way down, and that's really what I did. So I set up on my own, so set up chameleon HR at the time. So this was 11 years ago now, and then basically didn't do any HR. So because of the way that I was positioning what I did, it was all around creating a great place to work from the bottom up. So culture essentially. So every um client that I worked with was kind of all around that, creating a strong culture that was going to drive business performance. So just before COVID hit, I um decided that I was going to rebrand um to Cultural Chameleon. So I'd kind of been going networking and saying, oh, you know, I'm I'm HR but not really HR. And I could see people kind of looking over my shoulder for the next most interesting person to talk to because they think HR Grim Reaper, don't want to talk to a HR consultant of networking. And I was like, I'm I need to stop saying I'm HR but not really HR. So I rebranded just before COVID hit. Um, and kind of the rest is history, that massively sped up what we do as an organization because everybody realised you can't just pick up the culture of your organization from an office, plonk it in someone's living room, and expect it to translate, it just doesn't.
SPEAKER_01Okay, fantastic. Yeah, I think culture is so important. I mean, my business, I want people to come to work and be happy in work. I want we spend the majority of our time in work, right? Yeah, yeah. You want it to be a really good place to work. You want to be I I personally want it to be a fun place to work where I am. Um, but from from that, from when you're speaking to people, how important do you think that C senior management team see company culture? I mean, I definitely do, but I I've definitely come across people that don't even think about the culture.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I I basically don't try and convince people now. I think you either get it or you don't. Um, and it's interesting talking about a good culture and being happy at work. That's definitely an element of it. And of course, if you have, you know, as Rich and Brat as Richard Branson said, happy employee, happy customer, but that's only kind of one angle of it. So you want your team members to be happy, but actually, culture in the way that kind of we're looking at it at Culture Chameleon and talking about it with our clients is um values translate into culture if they're kind of managed in the right way, translates into everybody showing up their uh at their best, translates into um stronger business performance. So there's a slight different difference between I'm happy going to work, it's a nice place to work, and actually a culture that's going to drive your strategy.
SPEAKER_01Nice, like it. So for marketers uh in bigger organizations, do you find it harder in bigger organisations for culture? Do you like it?
SPEAKER_02Um so we work with smaller organisations. Yeah, it is it is harder because um essentially, you know, there's so many different loops to kind of jump through and so many different stakeholders that that need to be influenced. Um, the starting point is always the same though, which are um having company values. Um so we um we kind of handle company values in quite a different way to most organisations or most uh culture consultancies, in that we would say that the majority of people pick their value. So they kind of do a card saw to go on Chat GPT and say, yeah, yeah, we're honest, you know, we have integrity, we collaborate, we have fun, we're a family, family comes up really often. Um, and we um say don't pick, discover. So we go through an exercise where we we pull out how the organization authentically operates when it's showing up at its best. Um and then the idea is that if, you know, at that point you might have kind of 70, 80% of the people showing up at their best, um, and then you take them beyond words on a wall, so weave them into everything you do, and that's when they translate into culture. So, you know, large organizations can do that, but it's the whole beyond words on a wall, beyond wow, as we call it, that that's harder in a in a bigger organization, you know, and a multinational organization and things like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So as marketers, you do need to have that, you know, the vision and all the values, etc. So you need to know those and you need to kind of live and breathe those to kind of put them out on social media. Yeah. So for a marketer that feels that they don't quite know that or have that, what kind of advice would you give them?
SPEAKER_02It is really difficult because at the end of the day, you know, if you're if you have um a set of values and they are just words on a wall, so they're not lived and breathed in everything that you'll do, then basically the culture that you're selling, you know, it's there because every organization has a culture, but it's kind of a free-for-all because it's not guided by any any sort of set of principles. Um, and what we find is that um organisations, you know, talking about it from an employer branding perspective, which obviously as marketeers you're you're you're dealing with, um, then you know, people think um that they need to kind of keep up with the latest buzzwords. So um, you know, they're out there kind of marketing that the organization, you know, does all of those things. And actually, um, when people join the organization, they find that that's not really happening. So I think if um if marketers are in an organization and they haven't got company values, then you know, um push that, push that as a thing that they definitely need to do, and and a wider culture code as well, because that gives them a framework for decision making and and everything that they're that they're doing as an organization.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's I it's so important from a marketing perspective because you need to have that internal marketing and you need to have that right. And your people are your biggest marketing tools. If they don't feel that you know that that culture's right or for them, or you know, they don't know their values, how are they gonna help you to market the business? So that's that's the bit that I think people don't realise how important that internal marketing and the culture really is. So we use the analogy of a of a baked bean can.
SPEAKER_02So um weird. This gives you an insight into um the world of um Caroline and Greta and I, who who kind of work with me. So um you have a can of baked beans, it says it's a can of baked beans on the tin, and you're really excited because you you know you're gonna open your beans, you're gonna pour it onto your, you know, your cheese on toast and it's gonna melt, it's gonna be all yummy. And then you open your can of beans, and actually you find that it's been mislabelled and it's a can of mushy peas, and we all know that mushy peas are nowhere near as um yummy as baked beans. So this is the thing, as a as a marketer, you're you're saying, you know, potentially without any values or or culture code or intentionally designed culture, we are one thing, and then people join and you're another thing. So you're saying we're baked beans, people join, and you're actually mushy peas. Yeah, you know, so it's it's a great analogy.
SPEAKER_01And I have been at cheese and beans for ages. That's my lunch sorted like that. Not the weather today for cheese and beans, yeah. But so how do people, marketers especially, like recognise that they're actually in a poor or toxic culture? What are the signs for that?
SPEAKER_02So I think a poor and a toxic culture are two slightly different things. So a poor culture, in my mind, is um where you have a culture that isn't necessarily um driving or is blocking um the direction of the business, the direction that the business has chosen to go in. Um whereas a toxic culture is you know a culture where you know people are afraid of asking questions, so they don't they don't ask questions, they don't speak up in meetings, um, ideas are kind of squashed before they've even got off the ground. Um, you know, people listen to the kind of uh loudest person in the room that might not always have the best ideas and and kind of be be as as considered as they might need to be. Um so there's a slight distinction um between between the two.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So when I'm speaking to a lot of marketers in Midnight, they're saying that that people are coming to them with the decisions made, yeah, and they're not really getting a voice around that table from the strategy point of view. Yeah. Would you say that's something to do with culture? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02So I mean, I'm gonna keep coming back to values because it all comes back to values, and values get quite a bad press, actually, because people often just see them as words on the wall, you know, honesty, integrity, collaboration. No, ditch the one-word values. Values should should be um more than that, and they absolutely are on Culture Comedians Watch. So if you have your um company values and they're taken beyond words on a wall, so they're woven into um behaviours, systems, processes, decision making, then they provide um the anchor for everything that the organisation does. So the difficulty that the marketer would have if there's if there's no values or they're just words on a wall, is that if there's no kind of guidelines for how they should be showing up, for what they should be focusing on, for what they should be turning down, and that makes their job a lot harder.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So for marketers that kind of this is ringing, you know, to them and thinking, yeah, this is me actually, where can they get started? Who can they go to? Like I I personally would try and link up with HR and see if they can come together, but I just wanted your advice on it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think um it's it's done really well in organisations when HR does tie up with with um marketing. I think it's it's perfect because you have the creativity of marketing, but you have the kind of people aspect of of HR. And I think um there can be a dark side to values that you that you discover or or pick, whichever way you decide that you're gonna do it. So for example, um you may have a value about kind of pulling out all the stops, um, but actually the dark side of that is that people could pull out the stops too much and that could lead to burnout. So you need you need the creativity of marketing, but the kind of um employment law and people focused side of HR to make sure that what you're um what you've discovered is is right, is is safe for the organization and is kind of worded in in the right way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. And I think this is a whole marketing piece for marketers as well, because it's it people don't realise that it's a massive part of recruitment, the marketing. So from that perspective, really getting your culture right so you can shout about it and all the people within the organisation believe in it, yeah. That's how you get people to A come work for you, but also buy from you, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and actually, so you want you want to switch the right people on, but you equally want to switch the wrong people off. So if you um recruit somebody and they're paid 30,000 a year, for example, and then they leave within the first year and they are, you know, they're recruited, they're onboarded, they're then potentially performance managed because they're not the right the right um individual for the organisation, then you can spend another £30,000 doing that. So you've basically spent £60,000 and you've got nothing to show for it, and you're starting again. So um it is really important to use the values that translate into the culture, hopefully, that's hard work, but hopefully, to switch on the right people and switch off the wrong ones. And and you know, I would say one of the biggest um things that people can do to um to filter people really early on is to lead with vision, purpose, and then values in a job description before, sorry, in a job advert before you even get into what the job does. Because it's kind of like does our vision inspire you? Can you see yourself living our purpose? Can you see see yourself um aligning with our values and the way that you show up? Okay, great, read on, and can you do the job basically? But it's the kind of higher for attitude train for skill. If if um you know you can have the best salesperson in the world, but if they've um if they don't fit with the with the values, then you know they're gonna continuously butt up against everybody else in the organisation, and that's gonna cause big problems.
SPEAKER_01I'm really in, I'm not really invested. I'm like, I've forgotten my podcast here, Laura. Sorry, I was like, it's just really interesting stuff. So for marketers that I I are hearing all this, but just know that their company is not gonna change. What advice would you give them then?
SPEAKER_02I'd say it's good that you know that the company isn't gonna change. So I would say the worst thing that you can do is hold on for too long and get to a position where you're actually compromising your values. Because obviously you have company values, but you also have your personal values and you want them to be pretty much aligned. And if you're getting to the position where you're compromising your values, that's that's where it really begins to take its toll. So I always say um every organization isn't right for everyone, and vice versa, everyone isn't right for every organization, and that's fine. So I would say recognise that and look for an organization that does align with your values and kind of what you're looking for out of a great place to work to work, and really do your due diligence before you join the organization. So I've heard around um people that are looking to join an organization, reaching out to people on LinkedIn, but not people that are currently working for the organisation, people that have already left. Um, and that's quite interesting, isn't it? Because they're going to give you a much more accurate um idea of what it's really like to work for that organization than people that are that are potentially current currently working there if it's not a great place to work, if it's if it's not got a strong culture.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think as well for marketers, if they really feel there is an inkling of change and they can do it, yeah. It is about being bringing people like you into the organization, isn't it? Actually, can you just have a conversation with somebody that we've spoken to? You need to get that out. That if you haven't got somebody that's really focused on culture in your organization, bringing somebody in just to have a conversation with about it. Because this is like this is making me think, my my my values are one word. Like, oh yeah, don't don't shoot me, Laura. But it's kind of like it just gets you thinking about things a lot. So and and for a marketer to say, I'd like to bring someone in to talk to you, yeah. Um, and that's the bit that marketers are a bit scared to do because they think they should know it all and do it all, and actually, we're doing a lot, guys. Everything changes so fast. It's about bringing those experts in to kind of talk, and yeah, you know, that's what's so important in my opinion.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I I think that that just goes across business generally. I think we can all turn our hands to things, but why would you turn your hand to something if you're not going to be the best person to do that? There's already there's always somebody else that you could kind of pass the work to or kind of engage that will come in. And instead of you turning your hand and kind of had adding another layer to an already really, really, really biz uh busy job and perhaps not getting as far with the culture as you would have done if you um used use a use an expert, then um I would absolutely always um pull in the the experts because you know we're we're living and breathing it every day, we're drawing on examples of different clients, different cultures. You know, culture can't be imitated. Your culture is your culture. Um, and so you know, there's kind of different different techniques work for different organisations, and that's really hard to put that on a on a marketer's um shoulder. Yeah, yeah, definitely. The other thing I would say actually is that um what we do is is work a little bit like a personal trainer. So, you know, you can sit on the sofa in your sweaty bettes eating a cream cake, and you're never gonna get fit. So, as much like a personal trainer, we'll get you to get the sweaty bettties on, get off the sofa, ditch the cake, and go out for the run, i.e., do what we're advising that you should do to um kind of take those values beyond words on a wall. And that's really hard to do. Like it can't it can't be underestimated. It's showing up day in, day out, and you know, culture goes like that because you know that there's people involved. Um, so you do need somebody kind of being that personal trainer um and kind of riding shotgun with you, which is one of our um values descriptors, just kind of um you know, being along on the journey with you because it's tough.
SPEAKER_01So, what does a genuine great culture look like, and how do marketers know that they found it?
SPEAKER_02So I would say a great culture is different for every individual. So so um the culture that one person might thrive in is not the culture that another person might thrive in. But a great culture is where you have your values, they're not one word, they um outline how the organisation shows up at its best. They're not generic, so they're not, you know, integrity, collaboration, they could be any organization's values. How do we know that they're, you know, that that that they're your values and how do they make you stand out from the crowd? So you have your values and then they go beyond words on a wall in every single thing that every single person within that organization does. And when they do that, that means that um individuals' expectations are met and and they're kind of that's when the kind of happy at work thing comes in. Um, but also um not only your individual expectations met, but the organisation's gonna be pushing towards um, you know, it's its kind of fulfilling its strategy and all the rest of it because everybody's gonna be aligned, everybody's gonna be pulling in the same direction. So that's what a great culture looks like. Um, and that you know, a marketer looking to join an organisation could suss out whether that's happening by kind of checking out social media, thinking about the values that they say that they have, thinking about, you know, um what's coming across on social media or on their website and all the rest of it. And I would say um that from an employer branding perspective, it's really important to be honest. So if you are a um high pressure organization, don't hide away from that because if somebody's gonna join and they're not up for high pressure, you know, then they're not gonna play out in the organisation. So don't, you know, don't think of employer branding as promoting the fun factor and great pay and you know, social life and all the rest of it. I think it should be a you know, warts and all, essentially, because you're put you're painting an accurate, authentic picture of the organization.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And how would you put market that culture out there? Is that a question for me? I just wonder what would you what would you think of really good things? Like, what have you seen that you're you've done that with people, businesses with culture, that you've changed their culture and then they're doing stuff on social now. What do you think's working to really kind of put that out in the marketing?
SPEAKER_02I think it is um a hundred percent kind of saying it how it is, as I've just said. So it so it is, you know, it could be a post, you know, team of working late tonight, but we've got pizza in the office, you know, that's then you've got the team of working late. So we do work work work late as an organization, but we care about you, we've got pizza in the office. You know, it's stuff, it's stuff like that that um really people piece piece things together, don't they? And um, yeah. The the really important thing to do is to define your employer brand. So um, so your employee employee value proposition. Um, so basically what team members get from that organisation or can expect to get from that organisation in exchange for their skills, their qualification, and their experience. Um, and instead of picking that again, it's about discovering that and making sure that it's it's really authentic. So start with that, have that on your website, use that in your marketing, um, and then you know, you're painting a picture, you're telling a story, but it's an it's an accurate, it's an authentic story, and so you are going to attract um the right, the right people. So, in summary, for marketers, I would say um EVP, usually done with kind of the sport of HR or a culture culture consultancy, make sure it's super authentic, and then that can translate. Into the employer brand, which is which is the marketers side of things, and they can then share stories and share whatever they need to share from social media and marketing, but it's it's rooted in that employer, um, employee value proposition.
SPEAKER_01I love it. Yeah, it has to be real as well. We're seeing so many posts at the moment that are kind of AI generated, and um AI has got its place, don't get me wrong, it's been fantastic for our agency, but it's it's about like the brands disappearing, the employee, like the there's no no real employees under and everything's starting to look a bit the same. Yeah. And it's just from your perspective, have you noticed that in from an AI perspective? Um you think it can be damaging culture?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think so. Um, I mean, if you put a bunch of culture-related questions into AI, it gives you a good-ish response, but as an expert, I can see where it's just not getting it and where it's kind of falling between the gaps and where it's confused and it doesn't really get the difference between happy employees and strong culture that's going to drive business performance. It just can't connect those dots. So I would say, and again, using AI, you're back to well, everybody else is talking about well-being, and everybody else is talking about, you know, X, Y, and Z. So we should be too. Uh, and of course, well-being, you know, should be a priority for all organisations, but actually, only shout about it if it's authentic to your organization. If it's not, then get on the case with it and make it and make it authentic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think as well, AI is obviously driving, uh collecting all the data from everybody else's. Yeah, you know, so if you want to be original and different, you have you can't use AI to come on with your stuff for sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01So is there a way that solo marketers can create their own little pocket of culture if the organization as a whole isn't quite there yet?
SPEAKER_02I mean, in short, no. So um I think that you know, you can create a good team to work in, you can create an effective team. Um, but actually, if the wider culture isn't isn't aligned and isn't clear and isn't intentional, um, then you're constantly gonna be kind of butting up against differences. Um, so I would say that you know you can you can kind of operate fairly well in your bubble, but you're never gonna get as far as you could if everybody was was pulling in the in the same direction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I I I I just think some people I speak to people and I'm like, if you're not happy and you don't feel like you've got a purpose, yeah, you're not in the right culture, are you? Yeah, no, you're absolutely not. There's somewhere somewhere right for you, and that's where you should be.
SPEAKER_02There really is. I mean, we've all been in organizations that actually ultimately haven't felt quite right for us, and you always move on, and yeah, it's difficult at the time, but you you uh generally I would say end up in a happier place, um, and in a culture where you can get more stuff done and and develop your career because you're not constantly, you know, butting up against um a poor culture, um, a toxic culture, um, an unintentional culture. Um so yeah, I think if you're not happy, um, as hard as it is to do, move on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, fantastic. Um, and what part of marketing is putting you in therapy right now?
SPEAKER_02Um so employer branding that is generic. That's really putting me in therapy. Yeah. I just I can't bear it. Um I just think every organisation, apart from organisations that we know where cultures are really, really toxic, have got their they they have their own stuff to shout about. So, you know, shout about that rather than the stuff that you think you should be, you should be sharing. And if you think you should be sharing it and you're not doing it, then invest in getting it done rather than you know, baked beans versus mushy peas again, you know? Yeah, I really do like that analogy. Yeah. I can't stand mushy peas. No. Actually, I quite like mushy peas.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I think it's the northerner northerner in me. Um, and for marketers that are doing it's been a hundred plates doing so many things at once. What one piece of advice would you give them right now, Laura? I can't give them one, I'm gonna give them a couple.
SPEAKER_02So I would say you've probably um got things together more than you think you have. Um, and the fact that you are concerned that you're potentially dropping some of those plates that are spinning means that you care, and that's really, really important. Um, but a great little tool to use if you are struggling with kind of what should I do next and is this the right thing to be doing, and you have company values and they do go beyond words on a wall, is to use them as a decision-making tool along with um the company's vision and its purpose. So the starting point is um if I make this decision, uh, is it going to move us towards um our vision? Is it gonna help us to end up, you know, ultimately our vision? Um, is it going to help us to live our purpose? And is it going to align with our values or is it going to contradict them? Um, and we at Culture Comedian use that all of the time, even to use to leave money on the table. So we are a small three-person organization. Leaving money on the table is scary, right? Because you know, we're not a massive organization. Um, but actually, we use our culture code. So our purpose is make work great, make great work. And if we're not going to be able to make great work for our clients, we use that and we we leave the money on the table and we'll pass it over the fence to somebody that that will, because that's the right thing to do for the client. So if you're feeling overwhelmed and you're spinning a million plates and you've got values, vision, and purpose, use that as a decision-making tool. And actually, for the rest of the organization, use it as a decision-making tool. It's going to speed you up, no end.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's okay to say no if it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's okay.
SPEAKER_01I need to turn myself that I'm a lot more.
SPEAKER_02And you know, if you're saying no and you could say because it doesn't align with our purpose or because it contradicts our values, then that's much easier than just saying no and potentially appearing a little bit awkward. Love it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Laura, you have been amazing. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. Oh, thank you.