Why Am I Having This Conversation Again?

Have you ever walked away from a conversation thinking, "We've talked about this before"?

Many leaders find themselves repeating the same messages, giving the same advice, and feeling increasingly frustrated that nothing seems to change.

In this episode, Heather and Alicia explore what may be happening beneath those repetitive conversations and why telling, fixing, and directing often create the very outcomes leaders are trying to avoid.

As you listen, consider this question:

What might change if your next conversation started with curiosity instead of advice?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So moving from telling to asking. And I think it I think I think it's important to note that not all asking is equal. And so when we move from telling to asking, and I've made this mistake a few times, is that make sure that we're not l asking a leading question, right? So uh how would it sound to take this approach? Like I'm still giving you the answer, but I'm putting it in the form of a question. So I think that it's it's it's not just any kind of asking. What what what makes a question curious? What what keeps us in learner mindset as you invited that that into this conversation?

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Hi, and welcome to the Pause Before You Lead. I'm Alicia Saint, and I'm Heather Haig. Together, we've both led teams inside large organizations, and over the past decade, we've coached and partnered with hundreds of leaders and teams navigating complexity. We've seen, felt, heard, and supported leaders through the challenging and sometimes really messy parts of leadership. And while a lot has changed, many of the patterns that quietly take leaders off track just keep showing up.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

We work with leaders who don't want to lose momentum, but who know that clearer thinking is what makes momentum sustainable. This podcast is for leaders who are moving fast, leading teams, and making decisions under constant pressure. And leaders who know there's a better way to think, lead, and respond in those moments.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Each week, we bring you real conversations drawn from our work with leaders and teams. Where speed matters, stakes are high, and the quality of your thinking shapes everything. So in each episode, we're going to pause just long enough to think more clearly, to see what's really going on, make better decisions, and build high-value teams.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Whether you're listening before the day takes over, on your way to work, or in the middle of a full day, this is your pause without losing momentum. So, before we begin, take a breath and join us. I'm Alicia Saint. And today we're talking about something that we've been seeing a bit of a pattern with our conversations with clients of late. Leaders coming in frustrated. And the frustration seems to be the result of conversations they're having over and over with the same direct report or the same peer, someone that they're working with, and they feel frustrated because despite numerous conversations, nothing is changing.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Yeah. Yeah, you hear that. I remember that person too, right? Like, why aren't they getting it? Like, what aren't they getting? You know, how many times do I have to say this?

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Um my gosh. How many? Like I feel it too, right? I can feel that that sense of frustration that I I know I had, particularly in certain circumstances. And I think here's the the part that maybe is hard to hear, because where we naturally go when we're faced with those challenges of the repetitive conversations is the assumption that we need more clarity. Like, you know, I even think about with my children, where I'll say things three or four different ways because clearly they aren't getting it. And right. And so it must be I'm not being clear. And more often than not, it may be actually how I'm showing up in that conversation versus whether I'm being clear or not. I see you smiling as I say that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Yeah. I'm sure we all can relate to this one, right? Well, all of us have a conversation that comes to mind probably pretty quickly. Um, a frustrating conversation. And and if I may invite us just before we jump into this GC topic, um, I'm gonna invite us for a pause just for a moment, as you're recalling that frustrating conversation perhaps that you just had. Um it was just as you were leaving the house this morning. Um, just to take a breath. And just notice where that frustration from that conversation lives. Where do you feel it in your body?

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Oh my gosh. I I for me, it's in my shoulders. You know, when I'm frustrated, they tighten right up. Almost like my shoulders are touching my ears. How about for you?

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Yeah. Often, and um, I notice in my throat, like it my throat will tighten. Um sometimes I start like I can't quite get the words out. So um and then and then the thoughts come, right? Well, what's wrong with them? Why don't they get it? I don't have time for this. We don't have time for this. If they just paid more attention, if they just, if they just, right? And so just if you imagine for a moment, right, you can feel that frustration, you know where it's sitting in your body. And just if you let it go, just it's a cloud that's passing by for a moment. Just to be able to bring yourself back to that moment where, okay, I'm gonna have a redo. Let's try this again.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

I appreciate that because I think a a natural occurrence is even when we um come at that conversation from a different approach, we're carrying the frustration forward into the next conversation. Right. So if we're not letting go of what's happened up till now, we might be bringing all of that weight or all of that blockage in the throat into that next conversation. And we're gonna just keep recreating the same outcome. So maybe we maybe we start by unpacking this a little bit, you know, starting to look underneath the surface level of this frustrated conversation when leaders come in saying, you know, I've already told them what to do. I don't know how to be more clear. And and I think again, I I relate to this so well because it's like this I've said it as many different ways as I can think of, and I'm still not seeing a change.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

And when you really sort of listen underneath that, right? You can really hear a few things, right? One is the telling, one is um helping, right? Like I'm really trying to help them like right. Um Yeah, so you can is so you can hear underneath it, it's like I'm telling, it can be I'm telling from a helping place, from uh, you know, I want to fix, I want to rescue, I wanna um and the telling can also be from a place of like we just don't have time for this. Like just you know, and and there might be some assumptions under that, right? Like, why aren't you getting this? Yeah, what are you missing, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Yeah, and and it's hard because there's that there's that almost uh pull to telling that says, well, wasn't I promoted because I have expertise? Wasn't I put in this position because people see me as the as the person that knows this the most? And so, you know, naturally the default is I know what to do, so just let me tell you. It'll be it'll be faster. You talked about speed, but also I I know that's why I'm in this this manager chair or leader chair, you know, whatever the the title is. And and the and the the hardest part of that, and for me as a recovering expert, if we were to go go that far, is that the expertise that got me into leadership was the very thing that prevented me from raising other people up. Right. So the things that got recognized and ticked all the boxes that got me to that seat were not going to be the things that were gonna carry me forward from there.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Yeah. Because when you stay an expert, there's so much value you take from that, right? So much is in your identity. I'm the boss, I'm supposed to know that's my job. I give direction, I give clear direction, right? I I can see a path. We just just gotta follow me. We just I know where we're going, right? So you tell, you fix, you direct. It's very much being an expert.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

I know. Yeah, I've been there. You like you just said, I've I've been down this path, right? So there's this sort of this sense of knowing better than the other person, and not in a competitive way, but in a in a truly good intentioned way that is let me let me lead you so you don't have to make the mistakes I made in getting here. Let me help you get there faster. Yeah. Um, unfortunately, even though the best of intentions, it can cause people to feel disengaged or disempowered, right? Like my ideas don't matter. So even though my intention is to help that person, they might feel like, well, why should I even bother coming forward with any ideas? Um the other thing that I noticed is like when I'm telling, I get a lot of nodding. So I assume agreement. But you know, maybe the inner dialogue for that person is just hurry up and finish, and then I can go back and do my work. Um, and and often, because none of us really like to be told what to do, there's that sort of parent-child dynamic that's not not helpful in the workplace. And people are get resistant to being told.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

And you know, I think there's also a couple of things in here that we've talked about before, right? This this pressure of time, right? That it feels like it's faster. Um, I know, so let me just tell you. And then yeah, and and accountability, because you know, okay, if you know, well, I'll just do what you say. And if it goes wrong, not my idea.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Oh my gosh, you just hit on something so important, which is if if if uh I can just come to you and you can just tell me. And uh so it's faster for me to just come and get the answers from you. And if it doesn't work out, it's not my fault. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

It's uh it's uh a quick trap, I think, that uh many of us fall into.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

So we can assume mistakenly that there's alignment. We can assume that they're they're committed, they're gonna deliver on on what we said. Um and the nodding wasn't wasn't agreement. It was just let's finish this so we can move along.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

So so if expert isn't working, what's the shift?

SPEAKER_01 12:55

You know, it's it's bringing in, you know, curiosity, right? If it's if it's and sometimes expert works, right? So we're not saying it's not an all or nothing, right? Sometimes expert is required, right? Yes. If it's something new, if you have a new employee, you know, clear direction is really, really important. And noticing when the conversations just keep happening over and over again and there doesn't seem to be a change or it doesn't seem to be movement or enough movement, right? So then it's like, huh, okay, take the pause. Huh. What else could I try? If I notice the frustration, I notice, wow, I'm doing a lot of telling. Maybe try a little curiosity. Maybe think about stepping into the shoes of being more of a learner, more huh. What could I ask here?

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Hmm. So moving from telling to asking. And I think it, I think, I think it's important to note that not all asking is equal. And so when we move from telling to asking, and I've made this mistake a few times, is that make sure that we're not l asking a leading question, right? So uh how would it sound to take this approach? Like I'm still giving you the answer, but I'm putting it in the form of a question. So I think that it's it's it's not just any kind of asking. What what what makes a question curious? What keeps us in learner mindset as you invited that that into this conversation?

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Yeah. Probably one of the guiding principles is as open as possible, right? Because really what you're trying to do is gather more information to unlock this frustration, right? So it could be, what have you tried?

SPEAKER_02 14:58

What do you think is getting in the way? What else might work here?

SPEAKER_00 15:06

You know, what instantly happens when when those questions are posed is if if I'm being asked that, is my part in finding a solution? Right. So so just as the leader shifts from the telling into this, that curiosity of what have you tried really puts the responsibility on the other person to be participatory in this conversation. Right. Like I can't, I can't go, well, uh you tell me. Like when you ask me what I've tried, I've got to respond with with something indicating I've made some effort at this point. Otherwise, I'm probably going to go back to my desk and think I better try try a few things before I come back, uh, seeking seeking seeking answers.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah. So and I think too, the question um, like what might be missing is a great way to invite, you know, that person to say, you know, actually what I've been thinking about is I'm wondering about this. Right. And all of a sudden there's a door that opens and there's an opportunity for them to offer something that maybe they've been afraid to bring up because your your direction has been maybe polar opposite, or maybe your direction has been just going down a different path. And so what might we be missing is a I think it's a great curious question, just for both of you to go, wow, what if we turn this thing on its head?

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Yeah, I'm feeling a sense of space. I'm I'm feeling I'm feeling ownership by you posing those questions to me. And I'm also feeling like there's more than one answer.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Right? Which which when we're telling there's there's limited possibilities. It's interesting because I I there's an old adage that popped into my head as as you were as you were talking about those questions. And it's, you know, the the teaching someone to fish, not fishing for them. And how empowering it can be when someone starts to believe in their own resourcefulness. Like when you can help someone on your team see that they can come up with their own answers and how that might lead to them operating differently the next time they face a challenge. So there's there's there's so much just in that one little piece of what have you tried, what might work, what might be missing? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Yeah. So another, you know, adage, maybe, or I don't know if that's the right word. Anyways, that came up for me was the idea of like slowing down to go faster. If you just slowed down the conversation and and stopped getting so busy telling and created just that little that space, like for those three questions. Wow. What you know, what might you actually accelerate because a new idea comes to the table that could unlock something.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Well, and it's interesting because I could feel the tension leave my body when you when you sort of invited the pause versus the tension of the fast, fast, everything has to happen so fast. And isn't that the trap, right? Because so often as leaders, we're all told that speed is the thing that matters. And so if we just tell them we'll all get there faster, but but the having the conversation over and over again, even if it feels like it's fast, is taking up so much energy. Yeah. And it actually probably, if you measure the amount of time of repetitive conversations, it's taken more time, even though it felt fast in the moment, right? Where a slowing down of the conversation will save you time in the long run, even though it feels like it's not moving at the same pace.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Yeah. Yep, for sure. And it it there's maybe even something even deeper. And Alicia, I know you and I are driven by different drivers. So I I I want to hear, I want to hear for you what what shows up. But um, something underneath that expert and underneath sort of the fast and the speed is control. And I don't think that that I certainly know for me, and I don't think many of the leaders that I work with have that as a as a conscious driver. But the desire to control the outcome, to get get get our people to do things things a specific way or done what we would perceive as the right way, sometimes is also showing up in those conversations. How does how I see you smiling as as I say that?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Oh my gosh. That was my, you know, most of my corporate leadership life. Um, you know, I felt like I knew the answer, I knew where we were going. That was my job. I had to lead the team there, right? And it was perfection, right? It had to be a certain way. It had, oh my God. So you're the recovering expert. I'm the recovering perfectionist, right? Um, and also this place of like really just wanting to help, thinking that I'm coming in to fix things. I I'm coming in to, you know, make things better and help people and help them see what they can't see. Oh my gosh, I'm making myself ill just thinking about it. But it was not having the aware, it just wasn't having the awareness, right? That actually all I was trying to do was drive to one answer. It's just one answer, it's just one perspective, right? It it doesn't mean it's the only one. And in that perfection, you're either driving yourself crazy or you're driving your team crazy, or you're all going crazy. Right? So, you know, this idea of just getting curious and and even I know working with leaders, it's it's like, what's good enough?

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Such a good question. What is good enough?

SPEAKER_01 21:45

What's good enough? Like the telling, telling, telling is just like, oh my god, it's so exhausting.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

You know, if they don't get it what's good enough? Yeah. Yeah. So what does it look like to do this differently?

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah. I, you know, it's the pause. It's the pause before you have that next conversation, the one that you know has been challenging, the one that you know is frustrating. Have the pause and ask yourself, who am I in this conversation? What am I contributing? What's my role in this? What's the energy I'm bringing? Um, because if you bring frustration, that's a pattern that's just gonna come into the room with you, right? It's gonna come into the conversation with you.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

What if it's a brand new conversation? What if it feels like you just turn the page? Just flip that page over.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Flip the page and so in front of us. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that sounds, sounds so I know, so simple, not always easy. Um you know, I and and sometimes I found it helpful to think about what do I really appreciate about the person in front of me? So if it's hard to let go of those five, seven conversations you've already had, repetitive conversations, it's hard to not come into that next conversation frustrated. Sometimes the shift can come from just thinking about what do you really appreciate about that person? What's one thing that you, you know, one strength that you can be thinking about consciously as you come into that conversation? And that shifts the energy into curiosity.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Um, another thing that I find works is what's the common ground? Right. What what do we both what do we because often you're both working towards the same end goal, right? And so if you can remind yourself, okay, we're actually both trying to, you know, get to the same place. It's just right now we're taking two different paths.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Yeah. I I'm I I think of that sort of visual of m instead of sitting across the table, sitting on the same side of the table and looking at the problem step, like to get the thing we're trying to fix together. Yeah. Yeah. Great suggestion. Yeah, I guess. And what what I what I know about my own recovering expert journey is that it feels awkward in the beginning, doesn't it? Like it can feel it can feel clunky, it can feel challenging to show up differently than we have previously. It's hard to break old patterns because we've got these very deep embedded neuropathways that are so easy to follow almost effortless effortlessly, mindlessly, especially when we're in that fast pace that we were talking about. So just inviting when you're trying on something new to be okay with it not feeling natural, uh, that it may feel a little difficult.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Because it's you're building a new pattern, a new neural pathway, and it's just practice, right? Um it's it's a question instead of a tell.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah. It's when we ask questions in the same way when you pose those questions earlier, it you're we're we're inviting the other person to think.

unknown 25:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Right? And perhaps that's a great definition of leadership, is just where we we stand in that space and we allow another person to come up with answers that are gonna work for them.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

And probably work for everyone. Because the frustration's sh surely not working.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Yeah. So if you're having the same conversation again and again, if if this is something you're relating to as you're listening to our our exploration this week on shifting from telling to asking, take this moment to pause and ask yourself if I were to lead this conversation differently, what would that look like? How to stop repeating, trying to say the same thing with more clarity and come at it with curiosity.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

So Imagine that frustrating cloud just floating on by.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

So join us next time for our next conversation, our next real life uh you know situation on the pause before you lead.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

We'll see you next week. Have a great week.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Thanks for joining the Pause Before You Lead. If this conversation sparked something for you, share it. Because more leaders need space to think clearly in the moments that matter.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Follow or subscribe so you don't miss an episode and let us know what's on your mind. We shape these conversations for you.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Before you move on to what's next, pause just for a moment.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

And notice what might change if you led from here.