Why Do My People Avoid Hard Conversations?

Many leaders work hard to create psychologically safe teams. But when safety becomes the goal without the emotional maturity to navigate disagreement, teams can unintentionally avoid the very conversations that lead to better decisions, stronger relationships, and innovation.

In this episode, Heather Haigh and Alicia Saint explore the relationship between psychological safety and psychological maturity, and why leaders need both to create healthy, high-performing teams. They discuss emotional regulation, receiving feedback, healthy conflict, team agreements, and why discomfort is often a necessary part of growth.

If you've ever wondered why your team agrees too quickly, avoids giving honest feedback, or seems reluctant to challenge one another's thinking, this conversation is for you.

As you listen, consider this question:

Where might my team be choosing harmony over growth?

Follow The Pause Before You Lead so you never miss an episode designed to help leaders pause long enough to think more clearly, lead more intentionally, and build stronger teams. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I think, you know, again, if I extrapolate this experience that I had, I don't like feedback. I don't like when you push back on. I I, you know, I'm not feeling I'm feeling unsafe. Right. And so I'm just gonna I'm either going to, you know, ignore it or I'm just gonna get, you know, ex nae on it. Right. Well, I I'm just thinking about some of the leaders that I've worked with, right? And they have, and I'm not saying later, I'm sure there's leaders that are the same way that are just like they make it clear in perhaps a subtle way or not so subtle way, is like, I really don't want feedback.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Well, and and what I think is interesting is there's there's definitely that. I also see a I openly request feedback. I frequently ask for feedback, I solicit proactively feedback, but I don't emotionally regulate when I receive it. Yeah.

unknown 0:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

And so there could be the declaring or sort of whether subtly or overtly saying I don't want feedback, but I also see people asking for feedback, but not being prepared for a way to receive it that is that is productive, that encourages future feedback engagements because because I I want it, please give it to me. And then I'm not prepared for emotionally how I'm going to feel about it. And that's something that I really had to work through for myself is like I regularly ask for feedback. What I what I what I noticed having done sort of that work on the psychological safety, psychological maturity, you know, discrepancy. The safety is I feel safe in asking you for feedback. The maturity is I'm ready to self-manage what happens within me when I receive that feedback, especially if it's not what I was prepared for.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Hi, and welcome to the Pause Before You Lead. I'm Alicia Saint, and I'm Heather Haig. Together, we've both led teams inside large organizations, and over the past decade, we've coached and partnered with hundreds of leaders and teams navigating complexity. We've seen, felt, heard, and supported leaders through the challenging and sometimes really messy parts of leadership. And while a lot has changed, many of the patterns that quietly take leaders off track just keep showing up.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

We work with leaders who don't want to lose momentum, but who know that clearer thinking is what makes momentum sustainable. This podcast is for leaders who are moving fast, leading teams, and making decisions under constant pressure. And leaders who know there's a better way to think, lead, and respond in those moments.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Each week, we bring you real conversations drawn from our work with leaders and teams, where speed matters, stakes are high, and the quality of your thinking shapes everything. So in each episode, we're going to pause just long enough to think more clearly, to see what's really going on, make better decisions, and build high-value teams.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Whether you're listening before the day takes over, on your way to work, or in the middle of a full day, this is your pause without losing momentum. So, before we begin, take a breath and join us. Welcome to the Pause Before You Lead podcast. I'm Heather Haig. I'm Alicia Saint. And this episode, episode eight, we're talking about psychological safety and psychological maturity. And we're by no means experts in the space of psychological safety. There are many experts that we draw upon when we're having these conversations with leaders, whether it's Amy Edmondson or Timothy Clark's model. There's a number of incredible resources with great expertise in the space of psychological safety and psychological maturity. Our intention today is to share some of the insights we've seen as leaders ourselves and as working with leaders in a coaching capacity and teams where the importance of psychological safety and psychological maturity keep showing up. So we know a lot of organizations are very focused on the importance of psychological safety. It's a topic of great importance and a topic of frequent conversations around. So we're going to explore it in this conversation, encourage you to be thinking about yourself as a leader, working with your team, working across your organization, and how psychological maturity is showing up for you. Alicia, I know you've got a story to lead us into this conversation today.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Yeah. That sparked this for at least for me. And it was a recent conversation actually I had with my my stepdaughter. And we were talking about Dunkin' Donuts. Okay. And she is super excited that Dunkin' Donuts is coming to Canada. And she goes on to tell me about all the reasons why Dunkin' Donuts is fantastic. Can't wait for it to come. And how she hates Tim Hortons. And I was like, wow. Okay, well, here's why I think it would be not a great thing if Dunkin' Donuts wiped out Tim Hortons. We don't have to go into all the specifics, but it was just we had two different opinions and we were both holding them fairly strongly. And so in my coach-like way, I was encouraging her to say more and tell me, you know, what why she felt so strongly. And then I would offer why I felt so strongly. And we were having a bit of a banter back and forth. And then I noticed that she was getting very um emotional and she was getting more exasperated and a little more agitated and a little bit more fed up, I think would be the word. And then she just goes to a point, she's like, you know what, it just doesn't matter. I really don't care that much. I was just bringing it up. But you know, I I don't like I'm finished with this conversation and it it you know, I'm done. I don't really care that much. And I said, Wow, well, I think you do, or you wouldn't have brought it up. Well, no, I don't. Now I don't. And the conversation we had after was about how do you have a strong opinion, which is great, like, and she had a lot of reasons, so did I, and stay in the conversation so that and this is where I'm drawing on my corporate experience. How do you create change and innovation and transformation? And if if if you can't hold those opinions and and try and move, not to say that I'm gonna say she's right or that she's gonna say I'm right. That's it's not a right or wrong, but it's a huh. What might what else might come out of this? What might be possible? How could Dunkin' Donuts and Tim Hortons both thrive in the in the Canadian market place? What might that look like? What could be possible? Why would that be a great thing? You know, that kind of a conversation. And so that was that whole psychological maturity because I started to think about and leaders bring this too, right? It's hard these days because people are getting very strong beliefs and opinions about a lot of things. And there's a lot of talk about we're losing the art of conversation. We're losing the, and I would say it's more than conversation. I directly tied into our ability to innovate and be creative and in a time when we need it more than ever. Because so many things that, you know, have been tried and trued or blowing up or not working anymore. So it was to you what we talked about today is this idea of like psychological safety says I have my opinion. I'm entitled to bring forward my opinion. I'm entitled to bring my voice into the room. Absolutely 100%. And I should feel safe doing that. Absolutely 100%. And then the psychological maturity to say, wow, I'm noting noticing I'm really passionate about this. And how do you regulate to stay in the conversation for the better good, whether that's for work or for family or for a relationship? And so that was what I was really intrigued about, and I thought it would be might be kind of cool for us to explore today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Yeah. Well, I'm glad thank you for sharing the experience you had with with your stepdaughter. And it is interesting listening to it because I think there is almost right now, because of fear of of upsetting someone, fear of causing tension or friction or or potentially creating some discomfort, that difficult conversations aren't being had. At the same time, I also see where sometimes difficult conversations are being had and people are experiencing, I don't want to say extreme, but they're experiencing emotional responses that I think that the current environment we're in might be contributing to. So where me expressing a point of view could be experienced as an attack on someone's character versus seeing that the intention of that information is coming from a place of good, coming from a well-intended perspective. Like I think, I think right now we may be limited in our ability to give people the benefit of the doubt. And how is that also playing out in people avoiding having challenging conversations? And you mentioned how important it is for innovation and I would say for creativity as well. Like that, um, and we know one of the things that we see teams struggle with is status quo thinking. And how do you stop status quo thinking if there's no uh willingness to be able to put some tension to create not necessarily conflict in an attacking way, certainly, but just like conflict and thinking to say there's different ways to look at this and not have it be uh I'm right, you're wrong, almost, you know, like like a no and a yes kind of those extremes of black and white thinking that we see so often. I'm glad we're having this conversation because I think that it is so much emphasis is placed on psychological safety. And sometimes it's at the expense of this psychological maturity, which I know the first time I heard that term, I had to spend some time with it trying to understand it and and sort of figure out what exactly is meant by psychological maturity and the danger of creating like a false harmony at the surface versus getting deeper into finding real alignment. So, you know, I think I think that sometimes sometimes conversations are happening at a surface level to try and keep it safe, yeah, but not necessarily productive or useful.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Yeah. And I think the other place this shows up as you were talking was around um giving feedback, right? It's um we've you know, we've experienced it and we've heard it a lot from leaders, is that whole well, I am who I am, and I'm entitled to be who I am, and I'm entitled to have my opinions, and I'm entitled to. Um and and I think, you know, again, if I extrapolate this experience that I had, I don't like feedback. I don't like when you push back on. I I, you know, I'm not feeling I'm feeling unsafe, right? And so I'm just gonna, I'm either going to, you know, ignore it or I'm just gonna get, you know, ex nae on. Right. Well, I I'm just thinking about some of the leaders that I've worked with, right? And they have, and I'm gonna sing later, I'm sure there's leaders that are the same way that are just like they make it clear in perhaps a subtle way or not so subtle way, is like, I really don't want feedback.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Well, and and it what I think is interesting is there's there's definitely that. I also see a I openly request feedback, I frequently ask for feedback, I solicit proactively feedback, but I don't emotionally regulate when I receive it. Yeah. And so there could be the declaring or sort of whether subtly or overtly saying I don't want feedback, but I also see people asking for feedback, but not being prepared for a way to receive it that is that is productive, that encourages future feedback engagements because because I I want it, please give it to me. And then I'm not prepared for emotionally how I'm going to feel about it. And that's something that I really had to work through for myself is like I regularly ask for feedback. What I what I what I noticed having done sort of that work on the psychological safety, psychological maturity, you know, discrepancy, the safety is I feel safe in asking you for feedback. The maturity is I'm ready to self-manage what happens within me when I receive that feedback, especially if it's not what I was prepared for. And so there's a piece of this that I think becomes really um not to not to say that that psychological maturity means we won't ever be uncomfortable. I actually think it's like, how can we normalize the discomfort in it and help navigate ourselves and support others through it? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because those tensions aren't comfortable. Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

And the flip is, right, again, going back to myself as a leader, you know, a connector leader, harmony is like one of my top values, right? So always like trying to smooth out the conflict, trying to avoid the conflict, trying to keep the team all like liking each other and rah-rahing together, um, and over softening everything. Um, so in my desire to preserve harmony, I'm actually squashing the ability for innovation and creativity, which is another value of mine, right? I called myself a change agent. I loved it. A first person put up their hand to say, you want to lead change? Yeah, pick me. So so interesting, right? That you've got to the awareness, and again, the pause, we invite people to pause, is in the if you're pursuing the harmony and you're squashing the conflict, do you actually where where does that get you? What is the outcome that you actually get? And I think it's important, like what you said, when we say conflict, we're saying healthy conflict, right? What is healthy conflict? Yeah. And that's what I was trying to model for my stepdaughter was it's about facts and opinions. It's not saying you're a bad person for you know being a cheerleader for Dunkin' Donuts. It's not saying that you're wrong. Right? It's, hmm, this is what I know to be true. That's what you know to be true. Oh, isn't that interesting? Well, can you see my point of view? Can I see your point of view? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yeah, it's it just listening to it's funny because I um I recently put it put a post on LinkedIn about parenting lessons and how they apply to leadership. And for a long time in my life, I kept those two things very separate. And I was like, no, there's like parenting best practices and there's leadership best practices. But now that my kids are adults, I start to see like the merging of those things. And one of the tools that that my husband and I were given when we were doing some work on our parenting was to say, you know, I guess we see things differently. Right? Versus the I need to convince you, you need to convince me, but to actually be, I would say, mature enough to say, we can see things differently, and isn't that great? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Versus a, let me try and convince you or let you try and convince me. And so like there's that, I I think about in teams, there being like a healthy tension, like that you can you can allow for tension within the dynamic without everything falling apart and the team being broken and there being something that needs to be fixed. And that to me is kind of that that maturity level where you say, you know, I understand myself well, which I I think we're seeing a shift in leadership where there's a lot, there seems to be a lot more investment in people understanding themselves as leaders, as as individuals, there, there's more like I'm invested in some self-awareness, which is great progress from when I first got started in my professional career. You never heard that kind of language back then. So it's it's exciting. And to take it that step further to say, what am I responsible for? Now that I know this about myself, what am I responsible for in that knowledge? Right. So if if if I am a person who, when faced with conflicting perspectives, starts to try and convince others because they like I love a healthy debate, I love diving in, I want to just like get into that and right just hold my position and fight back and argue and what like and that's if I know that about myself, then I have to consciously manage and say how helpful and productive is that in this environment? Is that useful? Or can I just come to the place of saying, I guess we can agree to disagree? I guess we see things differently. And that shift from old things that would just be, well, you just need to deal with this about me, Alicia, because this is who I am.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you can hear the paradox, right? So the paradox in, you know, this is who I am and this is why I'm great. And no, you can't change me, and no, I'm not gonna, you know, believe something else or have different opinions, right? It's like there's magic in the middle, there's growth in the middle, right? There's discomfort, but there's also a lot of potential and growth in there. And I'm just thinking about how we um encourage teams to have team agreements. And I'm just thinking like, even one specifically around, how are we going to operate as a team when when disagreement arises? And how do we how do we hold it as a gift and not as a sword? What what would it make it feel like we can hold that disagreement as a gift?

SPEAKER_02 20:15

And I I'm curious about how many teams are having that conversation, how many leaders might be um encouraging that discussion around like what's the line that allows people to feel safe, to feel heard? Um, and and where they're like where's the line between that healthy tension or right, having difficult conversations that aren't putting someone in a in a state of emotionally where they they feel like they can't, they can't operate. Yeah. Like they need to go like what are those agreements that a team sets that says we want there to be healthy tension, we want challenge on ideas, and we are all in agreement that right, it's about the I it's about the topic, not the person. So here's how we'll respond if it feels like someone's character is being criticized versus focusing on the thing, right? Having some of those great team agreements for operating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Assume positive intent, to always assume positive intent, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Yes, and be able to say, like for someone to be able to say, I'm not, I'm not feeling safe right now, and for that, there not to be judgment in that, and for there to be like a uh an ability to pause and say, so how as a team do we need to proceed knowing that this is this is something we've come up against?

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yeah, so that everyone has a very clear picture of what is psychological safety, psychological maturity as a team, how we're gonna operate in this space, what is cool, what is okay, what is not okay. So that if it crosses the line, then it's it's uh Uh hey, as a team, we've agreed that this is the culture, the environment that we want to create. I'm noticing. Do we need a break right now? What would be helpful to this? What would be helpful for us right now? Yes. Feels like the pot's boiling over.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Well, and I think, I think part of that collective responsibility is also to say to recognize that uncomfortable doesn't mean unsafe. Right. Right? So how can we, how can we distinguish between this is uncomfortable. Right. And this is not safe.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Because I think sometimes the fear is I don't want anyone to not feel safe. So we can't make anyone uncomfortable. And it's like, but uncomfortable is where growth happens. So if we're going to innovate, if we're going to challenge our status quo thinking, there is going to be discomfort in that. Yes. It has to be. There has to be.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Or you're not challenging status quo.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, there's such a richness of opportunity to explore this, you know, and and as we're sort of bringing the conversation to a close, Alicia, what what's a best practice we can sort of pass on to leaders as they're thinking about, you know, the role they can play in psychological maturity on their team? In themselves and on their team. I wouldn't say it's exclusively one or the other.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah, I I might I might offer just, you know, my sh in sharing my story for the leader to just take a moment to pause and reflect on what's what's happening in your teams, right? Is there healthy debate? Is there, you know, some tension? Is there some challenge? Like, is there so I think there's a pause to just say, wow, because if there isn't, it's it isn't maturity, it's safe, it's emotional suppression, it's innovation, it's ideas are being suppressed, right? Status quo won't be challenged. Mistakes are okay. You know, it's it's yeah. Um and just really being clear, like what I mean, conflict comes up it's constant, right? So who are who do we want to be as a team? How do we want to operate? What's a way that this feels safe and healthy and productive for us as a collective system? And no one leader can define that, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:29

It's got to be collective, which requires a discussion about it, right? Not avoidance of the topic, but an actual discussion around that says what are our agreements and how we want to operate as a team. And knowing that us avoiding tension doesn't move us forward. So how can we navigate it in a way that that will work for us? Yeah. Yeah. So um, I feel like we'll come back to this topic again because there just keeps showing up. But um, you know, think about what this means for you, reflect on where the opportunity is. And know you're not you're not responsible for all of it, but you set the tone for the team. So if you're not leading that conversation, what's the next conversation you want to have on your team to start to get some clarity around how psychological maturity can support you?

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Beautiful. Thanks, Alicia. Until next week. Yeah, don't forget to pause before you lead.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Thanks for joining the Pause Before You Lead. If this conversation sparked something for you, share it. Because more leaders need space to think clearly in the moments that matter.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Follow or subscribe so you don't miss an episode and let us know what's on your mind. We shape these conversations for you. Before you move on to what's next, pause just for a moment. And notice what might change if you led from here.