More Than Ambition

52. Growing Up Saved, Neurodivergence in Church, and Making Launch Campaigns Fun - A Dialogue with Kristen LaValley

• Dusty Hegge • Season 1 • Episode 52

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Kicking off the first Dialogue Session, I'm joined by author Kristen LaValley. We talk about lip color, what she'd add to her squirrel bowl, neurodivergence in the Church, Company Retreat, and all about her new book, Growing Up Saved. We keep it light-hearted, we laugh a lot, and still make space for the deep stuff. Because it ALL has a place here. I hope you enjoy!


ALL THE LINKS:

Pre-order Growing Up Saved

Kristen's website | Kristen on Substack

COMPANY RETREAT: A deep work + deep rest sojourn for the Christian author, business owner, and leader

Dusty's Website


Feeling overwhelmed? Grab your free Action Planner HERE.

Let's work together: https://dustyhegge.com


CHAPTERS:

00:00 Lip Color Confessions
02:56 Wicked Movie Review
05:50 Squirrel Bowl Snacks
08:56 Creative Aspirations
11:47 Daily Routines and Comforts
14:45 Coffee Order Reflections
15:18 The Journey to Becoming an Author
20:38 Growing Up in a Pastor's Home
23:46 The Undoing and Rebuilding of Faith
29:26 Navigating Neurodivergence in Church Settings
33:12 Creating an Abundant Life
37:38 Agency Over Adulthood
39:00 Navigating Faith and Community Expectations
40:42 Nurturing Faith in Children
42:57 The Importance of Agency in Faith Exploration
45:45 Creating Safe Spaces for Questions
47:36 Marketing and Creative Processes
53:45 The Importance of Pre-Orders and Community Support

Get Your Free Action Planner: The free work planner uniquely designed for the inconsistent coach, author, or leader who’s ready to take persistent action. HERE

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to Voice Memos. Guys, this is the first ever like official dialogue session episode. I don't know. I'm bringing on more guests and I'm calling them dialogues, which you know makes sense. But I can't decide like, should I put it in the title? Should I just say we're having a dialogue session? I'm not sure. In any case, I'm joined today by Kristen Lavalli, who is an incredible author, a dear friend, and I love the work that she's doing. And this, what an incredible way to like kick off this series. Truly, it's so much fun. We talk about lip color and how I'm declaring this year to be the year of bold lip color. Um, and we talk about that um and bond over it. We talk about wicked. So, spoiler alert, we're gonna talk about wicked for good. Just skip right on past that if you uh don't want the spoilers. We're gonna talk a lot about neurodivergence. We're gonna talk about growing up saved, which is the title of her new book that you should absolutely pre-order today. I'm about halfway through reading it, and you guys, I have my full endorsement is behind this book. I am so, so, so excited for this book to get into your hands and to share this conversation with you about her book, Growing Up Saved. You're gonna love it. We're gonna dive into more. I'm gonna let her kind of introduce it in full. But along with that, we're gonna talk about neurodivergence and how that impacts our experience at church. We're gonna talk about faith and how our faith is formed in the early years of our like sort of spiritual maturity and what that looks like and how to kind of wrestle with really clarifying and understanding deeper the person of Jesus and what we believe and what's true and what's not true, and seeking out some discernment here in whatever stage of that journey that you're on. It's such a fun conversation and I hope it really, really blesses you. We also have a little bit of a conversation around how she's marketing and launching this book, which I think is such a fun, it's she's taking such a fun approach on it. Her and I actually got to do a strategy session together, and I got to kind of help her sort of brainstorm a few ways to be able to market this book and make it more fun because you and I, we all know how exhausting launching can be. And I think follow along with Kristen's launch because she is really taking this advice that I often give my clients of make the launch an extension of the work, make the launch a work of art, an art installation, if you will, and have fun with it and be creative with it. And the way that Kristen is launching her book, Growing Up Saved, very much in line with that principle that I teach. And I think it would be very educational and just fun for you to follow along on that journey. So without further ado, let's dive right on in to incredible conversation. I hope you love it. Okay, so actually, I lied a little bit there. Before we dive on in, I want to tell you about the upcoming company retreat. Company retreat is a deep work and a deep rest sojourn on the Oregon Coast. It's happening this March, the end of March, the 23rd through the 28th. And it's for Christian authors, writers, leaders, business owners. And it's a place for you to do exactly what I said: to experience some deep rest, experience some deep work. We're gonna do a lot of annual planning and strategic planning. We're gonna look back on the past year. We're gonna play and rest hard. It's gonna be a space where you can grow your relationship with Christ, where you can be renewed and be really equipped to steward the work that God has put in front of you in this next season of your life in whatever that ways that looks. I have a whole bunch more information for you all about company retreat on my website. I'm gonna put the link for you in the show notes, but early bird sales are closing on January 1. So if you want to save quite a bit of money and get your application in before January 1st, because I would love to hang out with you in person on the Oregon Coast. It's gonna be so, so incredible. My heart for this retreat is to be able to really spoil you and to help you help the leaders be cared for. Because, like, when was the last time you let yourself be cared for and let yourself be spoiled and let yourself really rest really deeply? And that's what company retreat's all about. Okay, okay, now let's get into the show. Oh how cute like it lipstick. Okay, thanks. It's like the kind that's like I've gotten ads for them relentlessly. Oh, what is it? It worked. It's like uh lip oil, but when the oil fades away, the stain stays on. That's cool. Which I really love because I love the idea of lip stains.

SPEAKER_00

I really like the um This is the one that I got sucked into, the lip stain. Oh, the wonder skin.

SPEAKER_01

Right? No, it just wipes off. That's cool. Okay. Yeah. That's cool. Do you feel like though, if it doesn't get on exactly right, it's like that forever? No. That's good.

SPEAKER_00

No, I usually if it like like sometimes it'll get a little heavy in the middle and I'll just like take a makeup wipe and get it off. Smart, okay. That's really smart.

SPEAKER_01

Because I always get worried. I have ones by um it's like a drugstore brand. I want to say it's like cover girl. It's like they're like, and I really like them, but I feel like if I don't put it on perfectly, it looks like that forever. Oh no, I don't know. Like I could probably wipe it all off with makeup remover, but it always takes longer than like it's like too strong of a stand. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's not good. No, I don't like that. I like this this one. Have you been seeing the black honey girls? Yes. Do you like it? I love it. This is the lip and cheek coil. So I got this one because they're all really expensive. This was $27. So I got this because I was like, well, if I like it, maybe I'll upgrade and I'll get like because the lipstick is a little bit thicker. Yeah. I really like it. That's like the whole black honey set.

SPEAKER_01

That's awesome. That's that's one of my favorite like little luxuries to like get is like the fancy lip. I don't even use them all the time, but I still didn't like to have them everywhere.

SPEAKER_00

I don't like like the texture of lipstick and stuff. So doing stuff like this is like new for me to try to like find something because my lips are like so pale, like that. This is just with like a little bit of lip gloss on, but I feel like my lips are the same color as my face. Yep. I'm like get past this and just start wearing stuff on my lips, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I declared last year the year of being bold with lip color. I feel pretty early on, but this year I'm re- I'm re-upping trying to.

SPEAKER_00

Good for you. I always say that I don't like I don't like wearing a lot of makeup because people notice when I wear makeup and they comment on it. And I don't like wearing bright color specifically red. I call it perceive me color. Like if you're wearing red, you want people, or you're okay at least with people paying attention to you. And I'm like, I gotta work myself up to that. Like I want to get to the point where I feel good and confident wearing a red lip, but I'm not there yet. I'm like, don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_01

I feel that way too. That's why I did that last year. Cause I like, I love, I love the look of a red lip. I think it looks beautiful. But then I always feel like I'm wearing clown shoes. You know what I mean? Like, so I was like, I just gotta do it. So I got two shades of red that are like softer than what I was wanting to go up to to like build myself to it. I also learned that there are different like undertones to the red. So like if you get a red with bluer undertones, because I get weird of like I'm drinking coffee all the time, and no amount of me staining my teeth is gonna make them not a little bit yellow. Yeah. And I feel like when I wear red lipstick, it makes my teeth look more yellow. But I learned that if you look for ones with like a bluer undertone, it helps to prevent that. Wow, there's a science to it. I had no idea. I didn't I mean it makes sense because like color theory is a thing, but I didn't think about it either until I started like researching it.

SPEAKER_00

But well, whatever color you've got on is working for you. I actually think it has cherry in the name. And the bangs, are you loving the bangs?

SPEAKER_01

I have I like I love them. Thank you. The way I waffle back and forth between love and hate. When I wake up in the morning and they're like this, yeah, then I'm like, what did I do this for?

SPEAKER_00

Bangs is such a commitment. You have to be willing to do your hair every day, multiple times a day.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Yep. I have like a little like bore bristle kind of comb and I just carry it on my person now. Because then it like because I don't like it when they get all like clumpy, and like there's no way that's not gonna happen in the Pacific Northwest where it's raining all the time. True. I didn't think that's true, but whatever.

SPEAKER_00

I'm so happy with it all the way, all around.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I have because I feel like oftentimes interviews get boring with the introductions. I created some rapid fire questions that it's okay if they don't go rapid. Answer them how you will. But my very first one, before we like kind of get into talking about your book, is what did you think of Wicked for Good? Because you went and saw it, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_00

I have mixed feelings on it. Okay. I love it. I loved the movie. However, I feel like we could have had one really long movie. Like, I feel like the best parts of the movie and the story they rushed through because they're trying to like, you know, I don't know what they were trying to do, but I feel like if they had put the two together, they could have told a more cohesive story. But there was so much that like I had to explain to Zach because I've never seen the musical, but I've read the book, so I kind of like know what was going on. He's like, wait a second. I don't know if that do we need a spoiler alert? He's like, Yeah, wait a second. Yeah, if you've seen it or if you haven't seen it, just give ahead a minute. Where did Pharaoh come from? How did he know he she she was under the floorboards? And I'm like, I well, in the book, in the musical, and I'm like trying to explain it. I'm like, yeah, I didn't really like explain that for people who maybe don't have the lore behind it. If I think if I had to pick, I would pick the first movie to watch over and over again.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I really I really loved it. I had a good time with it. But we also had the girls with us, and they both have autism, as we know. So it was kind of like I couldn't like really focus on the movie so much because they're asking questions like, where is Alpha? Why is Glenda crying? Is that Fiero's belly button? Does Fiero have a belly button? But I loved it.

SPEAKER_01

I did. All good questions. I loved it too. But I and I agree with what you're saying. My oldest, she's nine, said the same thing. She was like, Why didn't we just have one big movie? All the best parts are in the beginning. Yeah. I was like, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_00

I would have loved to see more of the friendship building between the crew. I feel like that's such an important part of the story. And I looked, I found someone who calculated all the screen time for the characters. And Bach and Nessa got like seven minutes each in the whole second movie. And like these are really central characters to the story. I would have loved to see more background on that. Like, if you're gonna have two whole movies, don't we have time to like explore the story a little more? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

I agree. Well, and I thought too that the second one, I was expecting it to be a longer runtime. Because I wasn't the first one almost three hours. Yeah, it was, yeah. And the second one was like barely two, I think, or right around two. Uh yeah. See, we could have. And I thought I was expecting it to be another like epic, but yeah, I did love it.

SPEAKER_00

You know, that's capitalism for you. Gotta draw it out.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and I wonder if they're gonna release like a director's cut with everything. Part of me wonders if they like withheld some of that on purpose.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'm wondering too, if maybe the success of the movie was so unexpected that maybe now another studio will pick it up like they're doing with the Harry Potter books, turning it into a series. Like, I wonder if someone will do that, but maybe for the books instead of the musical, because the books are very adult, very, very Yeah, I was gonna read it with Iris, and then as I was reading reviews, I was like, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01

Just kidding, we're not doing this.

SPEAKER_00

I have that book like tucked away in my house because my kids are they all love wicked, but I'm like, this is not a kid's book.

SPEAKER_01

And one, I read an excerpt from it and I was like, I don't even know if this is a dusty book.

SPEAKER_00

No, I was very there are some things that I was like, I've never read anything like that in a book before ever. I'm like, I gotta skip through. I'm not grown up enough for this. Is anyone? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

That's funny. Okay, so I do something called a squirrel bowl, and I have mine right here. It's just like where I throw, like when I like forget to eat, or if I'm in a rush, I like throw everything I can randomly grab into a bowl. If you were to make a squirrel bowl, what would you put in your squirrel bowl?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_00

Quick rag snaps. Snaps. Snacks. Okay, I really like, I don't know if this is well, yeah, it's quick quick grab if you already have that made, but I really like peanut butter protein balls. Oh, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I just they're like really easy, but I forget to eat. I forgot to eat all the time. I forgot to eat today, and my husband just dropped off a little protein ball from our local health food store. I just, it's just like not in my like, I don't know, ADHD girls, I think we just forget to eat. That's exactly right. And then people are like, oh, didn't you forget to eat? And I'm like, no, like it's not a good thing. Oh, I wish I had that. And I was like, No, you don't though. So then you crash and you're like, why am I so tired and cranky? Oh, I didn't eat. But yeah, I would do peanut butter balls and something chocolatey. I really like MM menis. That would be my like, what a good choice. Not a healthy choice, but I like it.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, but you need something fun.

SPEAKER_00

I love that squirrel bowl. What's in your squirrel bowl?

SPEAKER_01

Right now I have I call them flat pretzels. Oh, because they're flat pretzels. Yeah. And then pistachios and a little orange. But I really like it when I can add like some sort of a sweet thing, like you're saying. Like, I really like doing like um candied or like the praline pecans. Oh, fancy. Or some sort of like a candy nut. Because then I'm getting like the fun thing and something that's like has a little bit of nutrition in it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's some protein in there. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's the thing I've learned with like me having a hard time eating, is I just all of the stuff that like I feel like a lot of nutritionists are like, don't, if you're trying to lose weight, don't eat tons of this things, are the things that I need. Because like I need it to have high fat, high protein, high calories with like a little bit of effort. Yeah, the same rules do not apply to everyone. So exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, next one. If you could instantly master one like wildly impractical skill, like glass blowing or something, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Interesting that you should ask that because I'm really trying to retrain or rechannel my creativity to more visual creativity. Because I'm very creative writing, but I'm not creative visually. So I've been trying to learn junk journaling, like mixed media collages. If I could just like instantly have, because you you can have all the material, but if you don't have the vision and the experience of like what textures go good and where like what colors and how to lay things out, then it's just kind of like you look like a third graders, although there are probably some third graders that are better at this than I am. But if I could instantly master that, I would be so happy. Because I have poetry that I want to put to mixed media, but I don't know how to translate it to mixed media yet. So I'm I'm learning, but I if I could if I could overnight.

SPEAKER_01

Just like pick it up quick, give it to me. What a fun thing to do. I love that. It's cool to see how collages like that are coming back in a room. Yeah, isn't that funny? I love it. I think it's really fun. Yeah. That's actually, I think, an activity we'll do when I I do company retreat in March is do like a like a little collage thing because I think it'd be a fun little iceberg. So fun, yeah. Yeah. Okay. What is like a form of entertainment that's making you happy right now? Book, show, somebody's TikTok account, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00

Well, it's Stranger Things season in this house. Yes. Stranger Stranger Things all day and then discuss well, because you know, they're releasing it in volumes. So me and my my husband and our oldest, who's almost 15, are like, we don't let the younger kids watch this. Yeah, the almost 15-year-old. We watched the first volume and now it's just discussing our theories. And like every day, we're like, hang on, what if it's this and what if it's that? So it is like fully consuming, full, fully consumed in our house by Street and Things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I'm excited for when my kids are old enough to be brought into those things. They're like starting to get there, but I'm really looking for fun. I love it. That's really cool. Okay, next one. You're doing great, PS. So good at the rapid fire. Okay. What's like a random or maybe unexpected sort of like rhythm or routine that you have in your day that like really supports you or makes you happy or just makes your days function more smoothly?

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_01

Doesn't even have to be like a big thing. I think sometimes we think of rhythm or routine and it has to be elaborate, but it doesn't.

SPEAKER_00

Well, one thing I've been doing the past like six months, I've been really struggling with a chronic illness and getting my day started in certain points of the month, not all month long, but they're like the chronic illnesses with my cycle. So there are certain parts of my cycle where it's really hard to get out of bed. But I find if I have this routine of getting up and reading and reading a book that is like a comfort book for me. So I like to read a lot of the same books over and over again before I if I'm in like a I just need my creature comforts, then I'm not reading a new book because I don't know what to expect. So I'll go back to the same books. So I actually, when we were in Scotland together, I got the whole Harry Potter UK version of the Harry Potter set and brought it home with me. So I've been reading the UK versions of Harry Potter in the morning, and I've read these books like, you know, hundreds of times. But it's nice to have something in the morning that feels comforting. I know what to expect. It's just like a it's good little rhythm that helps me to start my day, especially on days where my body is like, you just want to stay in bed all day.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah, that's smart. Do you do it like in bed? I want more logistics. Like, do you get out of bed to read it or do you just snuggle in bed or what?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I have a little chair in my living room that no one is allowed to sit in except for me. And I have my little blanket. I do this with writing too. I have like a writing routine that helps me to get into the flow of writing, and there are rhythms that I do to like get into that. And this is it's kind of the same thing. Like, I know I'm gonna go downstairs, I'm gonna grab my book, I'm gonna sit in the chair, I'm gonna have my little blanket. My husband's gonna bring me my coffee like he does every morning, and the girls are gonna play, and the kids are gonna be getting ready for school. So it's the same thing every day, and knowing what to expect, and knowing what I'm gonna do when I'm down there and what what the energy is gonna be. I mean, with five kids, you never really can't predict it, but you know.

SPEAKER_01

But you're like controlling what you can control, which is just like so what it sounds like this that's happening makes it better. That's really cool.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, if your work, like the work that you do was a coffee order, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00

Well, the first thing that came to mind was a flat white. Ooh, tell me why. Cause it's it's kind of like when I think of people who order flat whites, I think they're more like cerebral people interested in discussing life and feelings. And um yeah, I don't know. I I'm not a flat white person. I'm like a flavored latte person, but I yeah, I would think I would think we're gonna order flat whites and we're gonna talk about faith and neurodivergence and the intersection of all of those things.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. When you order a drink like that, it's like a drink you're meant to like settle in and drink. It's not like you're drinking you're not drinking a flat white on the go.

SPEAKER_00

No, and you're not drinking a flat white if you've never drank coffee before. Like if you're a flat white, you've tried a lot of coffee and you know what you want. And that's kind of like that's kind of what my work is. We've been through a lot of things and we know we're getting into the flow of our life and figuring ourselves out. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I love that. That's cool. When did you first know that you wanted to be an author? Because like writing, as I've been reading through your book, like, and I as I because I already know you, like writing has been such an important part of your life. Was there a moment when you're like, oh, I want this to be my job?

SPEAKER_00

Hmm. That's interesting because it's kind of two different things wanting to be a writer and wanting it to be your job. That's very true. I don't have a moment in my life where I didn't want to be a writer. I've always written, I've always wanted to write. My mom's favorite story to tell is that when she was setting up her classroom, my mom's a teacher. She brought me in. I was like three years old. She gave me a stack of papers to occupy me. And within five minutes, I had filled them all up with these little scribbles. I couldn't write or read at the time. I just was like making these little scribbles and like, okay, I'm done. I'm ready for my next work. And I think that was just always like at the time, it was like a like a tangible thing, like a something I needed to do with my hands. But I've always needed to do that. Do I need always needed to write words? When I wanted it to be a job, I don't think I ever thought that it could be, because growing up in evangelicalism, nobody's really encouraging you to be a writer unless you're writing like theology books. But the people that were writing those books when I was growing up were men, they were professors, they were pastors. There wasn't really a space that I saw for that for women. So it never even crossed my mind that that could be a career until I decided to start a blog. And once I started writing my blog, this was like, I don't know, I was a new mom, 2012 maybe. I realized that a lot of other women were connecting with what I said. And I had all these opportunities to write for different blogs and different outlets and stuff like that. And that's probably when I was like, okay, I could actually make a career out of this. And it kind of grew from there. Yeah. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_01

As it's grown, like, has there like what's been the most like I don't know, like unexpected piece of it?

SPEAKER_00

Hmm. Probably the the people that have connected with my writing and the relationships that have come out of that. I would have never expected writing to create or to foster some of the most meaningful relationships in my life or for my writing to help other people connect with other meaningful relationships in their lives. Because writing is a pretty solitary job and you don't really think that it will ever it'll ever bring relationships into your life. But yeah, that's been really, really beautiful and unexpected.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's really cool. I had a similar thing. Like when I was a kid, I really wanted to be in ministry. Like I wanted to work in a church. I wanted to, I wanted to be a youth pastor, but only because I was told that because I was a woman, I wouldn't be able to be any other kind of a pastor. And then even then, as I grow older, I remember my dad well-meaning as he was, sitting me down and being like, You won't be able to be a youth pastor either, because you're a woman, which is a separate conversation for a several day. Yeah, but I didn't know that there was like other avenues to be able to talk about scripture and teach the Bible and be able to speak and speak into people's lives and like come alongside people, except in that role. Yeah. And so I remember thinking, like, well, shoot, what am I gonna do then? I have no other option.

SPEAKER_00

I know. You gotta marry a pastor.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, when I was like, I was like, oh, Brian is gonna be, he was going to Bible school at the time and he was originally wanting to be a psychologist, which is very different than what he's doing today, but then was like talking about working in the church as a psychologist, which is very different than the work he does now. So Brian and I were just talking about like it's funny how like our preconceived ideas about what our life was gonna look like is so different.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, obviously. That's interesting because I grew up in a denomination where women could be pastors, but typically the ones who were put in positions of leadership were not married. So I married a pastor, or you know, we were youth pastors, and because he I I was in a relationship with a man who had the same degree and the same career goals, I don't know, ministry goals as I did. He was always the default hire. So I was when we were going through the interview process, the questions for me were like, does she play piano? Can she sing? Or the pastor feel like we don't want her to work, we want her to support your ministry fully, which was fine. I wanted to be a youth pastor. We had the same degree, but only one of us was getting paid, and it was always defaulted to him. So being a writer was something that, like, I can't do that because I'm a youth, I'm a youth pastor. I decided to be a youth pastor and I support my husband, but I wasn't getting paid to be to be a youth pastor. So that was kind of like a natural. But yeah, it's interesting. Like you thought that you couldn't. And I was like, I can, but I can't because yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's funny how they say you can't, like, they don't want you to work, but they still expect you to work. While not paying you enough to not just like not considering it like the quote unquote real work. But if you don't do the quote unquote real work of supporting your husband and making sure the ministry is running smoothly, then then you're failing.

SPEAKER_00

What a Jezebel you are.

SPEAKER_01

Actually, that leads really well into like what your book is about. So do you want to just tell us a little bit about growing up saved?

SPEAKER_00

Sure. Well, growing up saved is about that, about growing up saved. And I grew up in probably a pretty unique experience because I grew up in a pastor's home in a family where everyone was a pastor. So all of my dad's siblings, all of my mom's siblings, both sets of grandparents, just like one big dynasty of it was this domination was assemblies of God. So just a big assemblies of God family. And I was a little different than everybody else in my family because now we know I'm neurodivergent. I also have some wirings in my brain that have fostered a great environment for anxiety and depression and just a slew of slew of things that made faith a little bit more complicated for me. Um, so I grew up in a loving home, but a but a home and in an environment that made me hate myself because I couldn't figure out why were all these things easier for everybody else than they were for me. And the only conclusion was like, I'm broken, I'm not committed to Christ enough. Like, you know, you find all these ways to criticize yourself for things that you can't control because everyone expects you to behave a certain way, and I couldn't behave that way as much as I tried, and I couldn't prevent myself from having questions and struggling with some of the things in scripture and some things doctrinally and theologically. So growing up saved is about growing up in that environment and having my identity shaped by really negative ideas, like that I'm a sinner and that I'm broken and that I have to earn God's love and finding all these ways to win the validation and approval of the people in my life while not actually doing the things that I like why I talk about in the book about pretending to speak in tongues, but I didn't mean to pretend to speak in tongues. I just really wanted to because in our denomination, you had to speak in tongues to be approved for ministry. That was like that's the AJ's thing. And I really wanted to be in ministry, so I just like shabba and I'm speaking in tongues. And I convinced myself that I was, but it really, it really made me crash out a little bit. Um, the older I you can only perform your faith for so long and feel broken for for so long before you're like, all right, what is what's the deal? Like what either God is not who I thought he was, or this is just not for me and I need to tap out. So it's about that. And it's about finding my identity in spite of all of the factors that were telling me how bad of a person I was and finding out how good God is, how kind he is, and how gracious he is to all of our brain wirings, not just the ones that are well suited for the evangelical church.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you wrote, so okay, this is I'm reading the words you wrote. It says, This book is about the undoing and rebuilding of faith and identity. It's about finding God, maybe for the first time, in spaces where we thought we were alone. And I feel like that like is such a good little summary of, so I'm, I don't know, maybe a hundred or so pages into the book. And it's cool to see that how as you write, you're pointing us back to Christ the entire time. Because it's not about this is the worst system ever. It's about like God made us this way. How can we trust that He is a good God and there's a purpose behind this? Which I think was really cool. One of the things that really stood out to me too was you were talking about how you would like journal and pray and beg God to change the way that like your brain was wired. And I was like, oh my gosh, I remember doing that for I have journals and journals filled with asking God to make me stop crying because I would just cry and cry all the time. As a kid, I didn't understand. I had really severe depression and undiagnosed ADHD and a lot of PTSD. And I didn't know that then. It's been since diagnosed with and like by God's grace, I've gone through a lot of healing. But at the time I didn't know. And I remember it wasn't until I met Brian that was like, your tears aren't this bad thing about you. Like, it wasn't until I met him that I was I even thought about like that not being a negative thing about me, even the tiniest bit. And he was like, God cried too. And I had like had never even a lot. Yeah, it I yeah, yes, a lot, a lot. Yeah. And it's I don't know, your words have already felt like such a bomb to me. And I'm so grateful for them. I'm good. I'm glad. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait for more people to get it in their hands. Me too. A question that somebody asked me to ask you was talking about like neurodivergence and like the impact that it has, like within like a more like traditional church setting. Like kind of a two-part question of like, one, how can like we accommodate the neurodivergent really well? And my sort of second part of that question is like, how can a neurodivergent person participate well? Because I think sometimes I see this narrative about neurodivergents, especially from ADHD, just because that's the world that I live in, and I see that talked about the most because I'm in those spaces, but um, is I see kind of a pendulum swing of like, I'm ADHD, so anything I do is fine, and kind of really leaning into I don't know a better term, but like a victim mentality of not taking very much accountability for their actions, or of being like, get over it, pray harder, Jesus will heal you if you just believed. And and the truth is somewhere in the middle. Yeah, always. And so I'm wondering, like, I don't know, I guess that's a lot to ask at once, but yeah, you have thoughts.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, definitely. Well, with how churches can do better, I think it's hard because most Western churches are set up to accommodate the most amount of people in the shortest amount of time. They're set up for efficiency, for programs, for you know, a lot of churches have three or four services. And so generally, the system that we have set up is not gonna be something that is accommodating naturally for neurodivergent people. And of course, it's a spectrum. So everyone's neurodivergence shows up in different ways. Um, I think a big thing that churches can be doing is to be knowledgeable of neurodivergence and how that shows up in people in different ways. Even for adults, we'll start with specifically for adults, a lot of the things that you and I probably struggle with because of our ADHD are attributed to someone not being reliable or being irresponsible or untrustworthy or um, you know, any anything negative you can think. And I think that if people understood more about ADHD, they would know, like, nope, that's not what's going on. It's just we have a thousand things going on in our brain every second, and they're different thousands of things every second. There's just a lot going on uh up and up in our, you know, our brains and our nervous systems. And I think understanding what ADHD is and how it presents in adults is a good thing. Also, autism, I think understanding how that presents in so many different ways for adults. One of the, I mean, I'm not officially diagnosed, but we can all like safely assume that I'm somewhere along the spectrum. And one of the things that I struggle with related to that is a lot of noises. So the charismatic church was very difficult for me because it's a very sensory overload type of type of experience. The music is overloaded, like people would just randomly start yelling and running around. And it was just like when you go into an environment where you don't know what to expect and you're wired to need to know what to expect in order to stay regulated, those kind of environments can make you feel like something's wrong with you and can make other people feel like she's not spiritual because she doesn't like the way the Holy Spirit is moving. It's not that, it's just maybe we aren't a good fit. Um, and for how it shows up with children, obviously now as a mom of multiple. I mean, at this point, I'm like, who doesn't, who isn't on this?

SPEAKER_01

Well, if it's genetic, it makes so much sense. I think that was one of the things I like felt really like, I don't know, I'm another like white girl who has severe anxiety and depression and ADHD. Cool. Like, but it does make sense just from a scientific perspective. If it's genetic, then of course there's gonna be a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00

The house is gonna be full of it. Yeah. My perspective as a mom now is a little bit more, I'm a little bit more mama bear about my kids because of how hurt I was growing up in the church and feeling so othered because of my neurodivergence in the church, which is mostly related to my ADHD. And now I've got a daughter with ADD, ADHD, and two daughters with autism. And my boys were like, it's just like a matter of time before we figure out what's going on, what's going on there. And so I'm like, I actually don't want to bring my kids to an environment where I have to train you how to be kind to them. I want to find an environment where they're already welcome as they are because I don't need anybody trying to change them. And that's something that a lot of churches don't do well because they don't know how to and they don't maybe they don't have experience with kids who have special needs or who are on the spectrum in any kind of way. So for me, the churches that have been the most welcoming and the ones that I would be like, yeah, we'll come to that one again, is just where everyone is just happy my kids are there, regardless of how they're showing up. I don't care if they have a system set up, I don't care if they have a quiet room or sensory-friendly toys. And like, I don't care about any of that. I will take care of my kids' needs if I can. If we need to exit, I'll take my kids out. If we need to find a room, I'll find another room. Like, that's fine. I don't really care if there's a a special needs ministry in the church. But if the people are kind and welcoming and I don't feel like I'm bothering everyone by existing in that space, you'll see me again. And that's hard, that's hard to find in evangelical churches. I found it the most in more high churches, like Methodist churches, Presbyterian churches, they're they're a little bit more like where happy kids are here because they're not so focused on the function of the service like a lot of modern churches are. But the other side of that question, showing up as a neurodivergent person, I think the biggest part of what makes existing in community hard for us in general, outside of church, but like inside of church as well, is the shame we feel about our needs. And I think when you unravel that and let go of that shame and deconstruct the shame, if you will, and just accept yourself, it's a lot easier to show up as you are to spaces and to not feel like something's wrong with you if you need to exit or if you're feeling overwhelmed or if you don't want to go that day. And to accept those things is also part of what you were saying of like not being like, oh, well, I have ADHD, so I can't do that. I think we all go through that process after we get diagnosed where we do feel like, well, I'm just gonna exit everything and do whatever I need to do because I have needs. And I think that's okay because you're paying attention to your needs for the first time. And I think that's probably a necessary process to go through. But once we go through that process, now we have to figure out how I'm gonna show up well to my life without shame and without feeling like everybody owes me, like I'm entitled to the world treating me a certain way because of my neuro divergence. Because chances are 75 other people in the room also have neurodivergence. So you just let go of your shame and unravel that I found for me that has affected my life the most. Like, yeah, sometimes I have to put my loop ear earbuds in because y'all are stressing me out and I need some noise reduction, and that's not something to be embarrassed of. I just that's just what I need. That means I can show up and I'm here, but I've got my headphones, my earbuds in, and your voice is just like two decibels quieter, you know?

SPEAKER_01

Right. I should really get those because noise is such a big thing for me. Like, you know, the moment when you like turn off the overhead fan on the stove, it's like immediate, like yeah. Like it's like they replaced how overstimulate at the end of the day when you're like, ah, yep.

SPEAKER_00

So happy that's done. Yep. I've got my I've got two pairs of noise canceling headphones at my desk, and then I have my airpods, and then I have my loops because what is it called? Misophonia, I think is the word that is like overwhelm you. I mean, Zach won't even eat toast near me because I'm like, if I don't have my loops in, I'm I just I'm like, I'm gonna throw. I'm married to a drummer.

SPEAKER_01

He's like always like I'm humming and beep bopping about, and I'm always like, yeah, Brian, and he's like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00

That's great.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You vote in your book that you said sometimes we hide to survive, and that may be the wise thing to do for a season, but we can't stay hiding and we can only live fractured for so long. And that feel like really seeks exactly what you were saying of like there's a season where you might just need to like withdraw and kind of pull back from everything. Um, but when I was reading that, it made me think about your abundant list. Could you share that with us? I would love to hear.

SPEAKER_00

Sure. So I created this list a couple years ago that I've just kind of like it just kept it to myself for a little while because I realized that the way that I grew up and even probably more so into adulthood, the only things that I ever wanted had to be baptized in something spiritual. And I don't think anybody ever told me that it had to be that way. I think it's I I craved validation and I craved praise. And I only got those things growing up for spiritual. Well, I won't say only, but most of the things I got the most praise for were for spiritual things. So I just like with writing, like I can't be a writer unless I'm writing spiritual things. I can't, you know, you'd limit yourself because you're so kingdom-minded that you forget that you're living in a human body. And God always intended us to be in a human body and he always intended us to live on this earth. And if he wanted to live like we were not in it, he wouldn't have put us here, you know. So I created this abundant list because I was like, what would an abundant life look like for me? Because if Jesus said he came to give us life and to give it abundantly, we didn't say, I came to give you heavenly life abundantly, which obviously he's going to, but he said, right, the life here, I came so that this life that you're lead leading here, you can live abundantly. What does that look like for me? It's gonna look like different things for every person, but for me, I made a list, and these are all the things that I would do if I wasn't trying to be like hyper-spiritual and like abstract, meaning as everyone's like, oh, I'm just such a serious Christian spiritual woman. I'm like, I want to learn how to dance. I wanna ride, I wanna travel, I want to do long hikes, I want to learn a different art style, just all these things that are like, whether it's my idea of like what makes you a good Christian woman holding me back, or just the fact that I've had so many years of trauma and then healing from trauma, which takes years out of your life to feel like your brain is open to doing new things and trying new things again. So yeah, my abundant list is all a list of all the things that I want to do, preferably before I turn 40 in a year. Probably not gonna get to all of them, but just the things that I want to do that I just decided I couldn't do for some stupid reason. And now I'm like, but what if I did? What if I did do those things?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's so cool. It's funny the stuff that we tell ourselves we can't do. I feel like I I got married so young. I was married at 20, and then I had my first kid at 21. Yeah. And so I wasn't like from being very much what?

SPEAKER_00

You were a baby.

SPEAKER_01

I really was, yeah. Like, and I still feel like a baby. Well, and that's kind of my point is that like I went from being very micromanaged in my super Jesus freak 90s evangelical house, but my parents were divorced. So I was in one house where it was very much like this. Is a small potatoes example, but like I couldn't I could wear eyeshadow, but I couldn't wear mascara until I was 18. Or like I could it was like everything was like hyper, there were so many random rules about randomness that was mascara like too sexy? Yeah, that I looked like a sweat, is what I was told. But you know what's hilarious to me is that my grandma bought us what is the magazine? It was like Cosmo, no, 17. You know, like the magazine 17. And they had a tip in there on like to like put your mascara on both sides of your eyelashes to make them look longer. And I have like teeny tiny little, they're very dark, but teeny teeny tiny little eyelashes. So I didn't have any other makeup on, but I just had this mascara on, and that was that did not go well. There were words that I can't unhear. I'm sorry. But on the other side of the spectrum at my my other parents' house, they were not believers, and the rule, like if you asked to get excuse from the table, they were like, I don't care. Which they're not getting me in trouble, but from my like going from a very legalistic place to this, I would be like, I'm so sorry. I just like so I remember just feeling so back and forth. And then got married really young, had kids really young, and I feel like I never got to be an adult. Like I went from like I was always an adult, but I never had agency over my adulthood. Do you know what I'm saying? Totally. And it hasn't been until the last few years, really until an ADHD diagnosis, where I was like, Oh, I'm in charge of my life. I get to make choices and make decisions. Because I would ask Brian all the time and be like, Oh, can I go do such and such thing? And he'd be like, I don't care. You do whatever you want, sea girl. And I didn't realize until recently that I was like, I never felt like a real adult.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's such a good phrase, like agency over your adulthood. Because Zach and I talk about that all the time of how we met when we were 19, we're married at 21. And I it took us a little while to get pregnant because I PCOS, but I didn't know that that was why. Yeah, yeah. But at 24, I felt like I was running out of time. Like I have to have kids now because I'm getting so old. So I started having kids and I never stopped. And I mean, I stopped at 34. And then we were in ministry, so there was so much that I couldn't do because of the people in the church. Like, what would the people in the church think? And I had to like hide the books that I was reading, and they were like magic books, like nothing there. It was like fourth wing or something. They're just like kids' books that have magic in them. But I would have teenagers over and I would have to hide those books because what if the teenager's parents didn't like magic? And so so much of my life was lived by how it would be perceived by other people or by what was approved of in our church communities. And it took me, even after we left ministry, it took me many years to be like, oh, I can make my own choices. I'm gonna I'm a grown-up, I have the Holy Spirit, I have discernment, I have wisdom, I can make my own choices and not have to worry that someone's gonna get mad at me or I'm gonna fail or God's gonna get mad at me. I can just live my life.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and something I'm constantly reminding of myself of to like to that point is that like when I inevitably at some point make a choice that maybe isn't good, like God is so loves me. Yeah, he's not gonna be like you horrible human being. He's gonna be like, oh, isn't that the whole point? Like, that's that was a bad choice. Let's fix it, like, let's carry on, you know? Like he's not here to trick us up and catch us when we fail. He's here to love us through it the whole time.

SPEAKER_00

He's just waiting for us to screw up through the thing.

SPEAKER_01

But I had that though. I think I was thinking like he was like, he's gonna catch me.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. Which is crazy. I know. Kind of the antithesis of what the whole story of God and his people is about, you know?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We're very much loved more than I think that we realize. Which makes me wonder. Like, uh another thing that you wrote that I or that I really loved is that you said uh when we choose to follow Jesus, whether as a child or as an adult, our beliefs look a lot like um the environment that our faith is nurtured in. Uh, and so I'm wondering, like, as adults now raising kids in faith environments, like, what are some things that maybe you do from your experience to try and help nurture that faith in a way that is more aligned with the gospel and is more aligned with what we know to be true about who God is and yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, one of the things that is really hard because of the work that I'm in and the ministry that I do is with people who have deconstructed their faith or are deconstructing, or there's something there's there's there's a lot of pain and there's a lot of confusion and disorientation, I think is probably the best word to describe people who are going through that process. Um, I went through that process as well and rebuilt my faith. A lot of people don't. And so when Zach and I approach faith with our kids, we can't help but have that in our minds, what we've learned from the people that we work with and like the things that they've told us that have affected them so negatively. So you mentioned agency. That's one of the things that we're doing probably differently than either one of our parents. Zach didn't grow up Christian, but you know, you still have that kind of like framework life, framework worldview handed down to you is we're giving our kids a lot of agency, and that can be really uncomfortable because I grew up where like faith was a non-negotiable, and that's not like you know, your parents can't force you to get on your knees and ask Jesus into your heart, but there are expectations and you want to please your parents and you want to please your community and be accepted. And so you learn to play the part, and we don't want that for our kids to feel like they're that our love for them, our acceptance of them is hinged on whether or not they believe the same things that we believe or believe them to the verocity that we believe them. Right. So we give them a lot of agency in their faith exploration in in conversations. Like one of my kids is very literal and he's has a hard time with abstract concepts. And faith can be very difficult when you struggle with abstract concepts. And so we kind of have to approach it, approach developing him as a human being from a different perspective, because we can't just say, this is what the Bible says, and this is what God says, and this is what you're supposed to do, because he struggles with those concepts. And so we want him to be a good person and we want him to make good choices, and we want obviously we want him to know that he's loved and that God loves him and to have faith, because I think faith is such an important piece in a person's life. But because of the way he's wired, we have to kind of approach it from a different way and make sure that he always has the agency to explore those things on his own without feeling like they're shoved down his throat because then yeah, it's gonna, you know, go a different way. So we we lean really heavily on stories, the stories of scripture. The Book of Belonging is a really great book that I recommend all the time because it's a very um beautifully, it's a beautiful storytelling book about scripture. So we lean heavily on the stories, we give them a lot of agency, and we don't try to uh set an expectation that there are right answers that they have to give in order to win our approval. We're just we want them to be on their own journey because that seems to be the thing that makes it easier to have faith as you grow up, if you feel like you've always had a choice.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I really love that. I like the Book of Belonging too. I think it is really well written.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Something that somebody said to me once, so this isn't my brilliance, this was passed down to me, that I think really helps, especially if you have like little, little kids, but for all ages, is we do a lot of like storybook Bibles. And one of the things that's important to me is that the kids know like this is a storybook Bible, and we teaching the difference between like the word of God and this is like an interpretation of the word of God. And so I like to read like a variety of different storybook Bibles because if this is all an interpretation, we we want to hear from a lot of interpretations of what that scripture is. So, but one thing that I that was encouraged to do from an early age that I've seen the like fruit of as they've gotten older is when they ask the questions that feel so stupid in the moment. You're like, is bedtime? We just need to write this book read and go to bed. But like when they ask, like, why is this person's shirt this color in the illustration, or like all of the little questions that they ask that don't seem to matter because of the point of the story to like give them time to think it through and talk about it with them. Sometimes there's a prescriptive answer and sometimes there's not. But for me, that's really helped because a lot of times the illustrations are actually drawn with the theology and the symbolism of the story in mind. Not always, but a lot of times they are. The biggest storybook Bible is another one that I really love for a similar reason because the illustrations, and I have two very like creative children who are very like art-centered. And so for them, they really love it because they love to find all the symbolism and all the meaning in the pictures, and so it's fun for them. And that's been like a little thing that's helped so much because now that they're getting bigger and they're in classrooms where their peers are coming from all different wild like backgrounds. Like I put our kids on, we do public school. And so like sexual orientation is different, or like even in little, little grades, it's been really cool because then I can see my kids just ask questions and not feel the need for the specific answer all the time. It's just been cool to see that little piece of advice has served me so well, and I feel very grateful that somebody shared it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's like when kids feel like they could talk to you about anything, they'll talk to you about anything. Yes. It's not always that the great, uh, great time or in a great in a great place. Sometimes my kids will ask the wildest questions when we're out in public and surrounded by people. And I'm like, one of these days, I'm gonna be on one of these TikToks that goes viral because my kids ask these questions super, super loudly, and somebody's gonna be like, what's this mom gonna say the wrong thing to her kids? I can't. I can't. But when your kids feel safe with you, then they will ask you anything and everything, and you kind of just roll with it.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, yeah, yeah. That and like the other thing that somebody told me once was to just answer the question right in front of you for littler ones, especially. Like you don't need to give like a full it's my tendency to just talk and talk and talk and talk and talk, which like that's not what they need. They just need you to answer the question right in front of me, in front of them, and I think that's been really helpful too.

SPEAKER_00

Me and and and to not panic, because sometimes I ask questions that you can feel like I have to give them the right answer right now, or this is gonna screw them up forever. But rarely does anything like that happen. I think you just don't don't panic and and overload them with information because you're scared that they're gonna end up with the wrong answer. It's just a question. Questions aren't that big of a deal. They'll have a million more questions and you'll have a million more opportunities to guide them or correct yourself if you say a stupid thing. Which we all think they do a lot is like circle back to it later.

SPEAKER_01

I'll be like, hey, I don't think I answered that very well. Can we talk about it again? And we'll like reopen it later when I feel more like settled. Yeah. Because I think a lot of times the the my response is gonna matter more than my like my like the way I hold my face or my tone of voice oftentimes matters more than the words I choose. And if my tone of voice or my face don't align with what I know to be true about scripture, I have to come back and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I didn't handle that. Yeah. Good. Let's try it. Yeah, my bad. Okay, I'm loving the way also, can I just say from like a like a business perspective, I'm loving the way you're doing this launch. Oh, thank you. It's been so fun to watch it like unfold. And I can't wait to see what else you create because it's neat. Something that I've like been talking with a lot of like my clients about and have talked about on the podcast a lot, is like, how can we treat because for authors and for writers and for really any creatives, like you're now also marketing team and like you're you're wearing all and a lot of people really hate it, which is fair. Like, that's not why you started the work you're doing. Like, I get it. But the question I've been asking people is like, how can we think about it more like an art installment? How can you think about it the launch more like an extension of your work to tell a greater story or to add to the story? And watching the way that you've approached this is exactly that. So I'm wondering, like, where are you getting your ideas? Like, tell me about that process.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think I think this is it's partially because marketing my last book burned me out so much because it was such a bummer. Like, I loved my book, but it was also a very heavy, heavy talk. Yeah. Lots of trauma. Let's a book about suffering. You can't really find a fun way to market a book about suffering. And a lot of people that wanted to interview me want like the juicy, like they want a good, they want a podcast that's gonna be listened to. So they wanted to talk about the traumas. And I'm like, can we talk about like the good things that happened and what I learned?

SPEAKER_01

Like, do we have to go through all these details?

SPEAKER_00

So it really burned me out. Um, so I was kind of disappointed once the book came out because all of my marketing energy was gone. And you know, you're not supposed to just stop talking about your book when it comes out, but by the time my book came out, I was just like, I can't believe I cannot talk about my traumas for another second. So with this book, as soon as I I wrote the book and then was kind of going back and forth on the title, and neither I or my publisher liked the title. The the first title was finally free. And it was, you know, the book was gonna end with this idea of like, here's how we get finally free. But then we were like, I don't really know if that's the one. And then I was like, wait a second, growing up saved, because that's what this book is about. And my publisher was like, this is amazing. So as soon as I thought of the title, I changed all my chapter titles to be a nod to the era that I grew up in. So if you grew up in the 90s, you'll you'll see the chapter titles and you'll be like, oh, I see what she's doing here. So even though the chapters aren't about the specific thing that the chapter titles like it's not about I kiss dating goodbye or like the left behind series, but I incorporate those titles into my book. But I changed all the chapter titles, and I was like, the way that I'm gonna make this book promotion not feel soul-sucking for me as a creative, is to have fun with it. And obviously there are some heavy topics in the book, but I feel like the book is light enough that I can have fun with it and really play into like, yes, the the trauma of growing up in the 90s Christianity, which Nate Burgassi says is the most Christian. If you're gonna be the most Christian, I'm very in the 90s, they were the most Christian. So leaning into like how awful that was in a lot of ways, but also we're older now and we can like look back and say, yeah, that was bad, but like wasn't that funny as well? And that's the way that we have fun with this. And also, everything is so nostalgic right now. And I kind of clocked that two years ago. I I told my husband, by the time my next book comes out, I really feel like people are gonna be leaning hard into the 90s of it all, not just with Christianity. But I was seeing the trends on like TikTok and Twitter and like in movies and stuff where people are really like going back into that nostalgia. And I'm like, I bet this is gonna hit Christians as well. And we're gonna start like leaning more and more into the nostalgia of the 90s. And then wouldn't you know it? My book's coming out in March. Rachel Lampa and Stacey Rico just released a version of Blessed Together, which was one of my yeah, and I'm like, okay, I was right about this, and I'm starting to see some other these people kind of like coming up. But like Joshua Harris, who wrote I kissed dating goodbye, is someone that I've met and talked to. I told him about the chapter in my book where I kind of nod to him. Like, there's all this, all these people from our childhood that are starting to be more prominent figures again. And so I feel proud of myself for kind of clocking that a couple years ago. But that was kind of the development of the marketing behind this was I need this to feel fun. I need it to feel light, I need it to not feel like I'm trying to take down the church because that's not what this is. I want this to be good-natured fun of like, let's make fun of the things that traumatized us because sometimes you have to make fun of the things that were bad to heal and to be able to look back and say, okay, I can look back without feeling triggered all the time. So the marketing is already so much fun, and I can't wait to just like lean into it more and more as we go.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. All of the like shirts that just blatantly ignore like trademarking laws. Yeah. Why do Christians not recognize that that's not true?

SPEAKER_00

We don't need to follow copyright laws. There's no commandment about that. Sure.

SPEAKER_01

It's not stealing. It's not stealing, it's borrowing.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's so fun. I know. I saw the blow-up chair, the like plastic one, and I could like I could like hear it cringling like in my mind's eye.

SPEAKER_00

I've had a lot of fun gathering all the spies. I've got some butterfly clips. I don't know if you did this, but I used to wrap my hair with strings. You remember hair wraps? I used to write.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, did you have one of the ones that you go like turn on and you could put your put your hair into it?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I would manually wrap my hair in strings. I'm not doing that now, but I bought like a little clip that looks like look at that's also.

SPEAKER_01

I'm sad you're not doing that now. You should yeah, you should just wrap your own hair. Like, why would you? I know.

SPEAKER_00

I should I should just commit to the bit. Commit. Come on. My kids would love that. They would think that's so cool. That's an easy.

SPEAKER_01

I had one of the, it was like a turquoise and it had like three little strings, and you would feed your hair through the little like hole, and then you click a button and then it would wrap it for you when you pull it down. But the amount of times I would come to my mom with it stuck to my head and be like, Mom, I need your app because it would get all tangled up.

SPEAKER_00

Nope. I would I would do it myself, or there was always someone doing it at like our churches festivals. There was always like a hair wrapper. So I would go and pay five bucks to get my hair wrapped. Yeah. Very cool.

SPEAKER_01

Very, very cool.

SPEAKER_00

Very hip.

SPEAKER_01

That's so fun. Okay. How can people buy the book? Amazon. Where's the best? Anywhere. Yeah. Anywhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I would I would encourage you to go to your local bookstore. Support the local bookstore first. But then yeah, Amazon, Barnes ⁇ Noble, anywhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's exciting. I'll put links to it in the in the show notes too. And then I'm wondering too, like, how can we best like support you during the launch? Like I know the importance of like pre-ordering. Yeah. You want to like share a little bit about like why that matters?

SPEAKER_00

Pre-orders matter because it tells the retailers that people are interested in the book. So without the pre-orders, they don't really order copies of the book, which creates a cycle of like the book not being available and then people aren't buying the book because it's not available. So pre-orders kind of give a nod to everybody who sells a book, like we should order some copies of this book. And then there's no production delays because if they because publishers will order a certain amount of books because that's what they expect to sell. Um, and if the book takes off after publication and they don't have enough books printed, then it's gonna delay shipping and stuff like that. So it's just like a really boring process of like just pre-order because it tells everybody what they need to know about how the book is gonna do. It's gonna like perform. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Cool.

SPEAKER_01

And then how can people like help support you during the launch?

SPEAKER_00

Well, you know, we're all fighting the algorithm, and every everyone that's out there selling something or promoting something is trying to get eyes on them. And that is really hard to do in the clogged algorithms that we have. So just liking and engaging with posts, commenting, sending them, commenting on stories with me, with anybody that's out there trying out there hustling the best way to support us is to engage with what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. And I'm always reminding to my clients like if you want people to be engaging on your stuff, you gotta engage on other people's.

SPEAKER_00

Totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like if you want a village, you gotta be a villager, my friend.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, unfortunately.

unknown

Unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks for hanging out. Just kidding. Just kidding. Just kidding. Thanks for hanging out with me. I like you. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I hope you had so much fun listening to that conversation. I know it really energized me and refueled me, and it was such a joy to be able to share that with all of you. Make sure you pre order that book. Pre orders, she spoke about it earlier, but. Pre-orders really, really, really matter for authors. And I want to do everything we can within our power as a community to support Kristen in this launch. So go pre-order that book, ASAP. I'm going to put some links for places you can prioritize it in the show notes for you. And if you're interested in attending company retreat, don't wait on submitting your application. You're running out of time, my sweet friend. That's not entirely true, but you are running out of time to get it, like take advantage of the early bird application. So when you submit your application to attend company retreat this March, it doesn't mean you're paying immediately. And I want you to keep that in mind. I offer payment plans. If the the finances is something that's holding you back, submit your application and let's have a conversation about it because this retreat is too important to ignore. And I believe that wholeheartedly. So have a wonderful, wonderful week, and we'll chat next week. Okay, bye.