Grace Period
Welcome to our laid-back Christ Lutheran podcast, where we chat about faith, real life, and all the messy, beautiful moments in between. Think of it like sitting down with friends over a drink—sharing stories, asking big questions, laughing at ourselves, and leaning into God’s grace as we sort out what it means to follow Jesus in the everyday. No sermons, no pressure—just honest conversation, a little humor, and plenty of room for wonder. This podcast is brought to you by Christ Lutheran Church of Visalia, California.
Grace Period
The Breaking Point: How Burnout Sneaks Up on You
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In this episode, “The Breaking Point: How Burnout Sneaks Up on You,” our co-host Josh Nauman leads the conversation into what happens when pushing through just… stops working. Not in some dramatic crash, but in the quieter, more familiar way—when motivation fades, energy dips, and even simple things start to feel heavier than they should.
Josh guides us through how burnout builds slowly in the background while you’re busy being “fine,” until one day your to-do list feels less like a plan and more like a personal attack. We get into the warning signs people brush off, why high-functioning burnout is so easy to normalize, and how to recognize your own breaking point before you hit it.
And in a bit of unintentional method acting, our recording setup decided to hit its own breaking point mid-episode. So yes, you’ll hear some audio glitches, a few awkward pauses—and, as a bonus, our truly incredible “technical difficulties” music making a few guest appearances. Honestly, it might be the most consistent performer in the episode.
It’s not the cleanest episode we’ve ever recorded. But it might be one of the most real.
Welcome, welcome to the Grace Period Podcast, where we gather for honest conversations about faith, everyday life, and the grace that carries us through it all. Think of this podcast like friends sitting down over a cup of coffee, sharing stories, laughing at ourselves, and leading into God's grace together. Expect honesty, humor, and a space to ask hard questions. No sermons here, just a good old conversation. Grace period podcast. Make your room for grace in real life. This podcast is brought to you by Christ Lutheran Church here in Viselia, California, clcviselia.org, and you can find us on Facebook and Instagram. My name is Noel Thompson and I have my wonderful co-host back with me. Josh. Josh, how are you doing? I'm doing pretty good today. How are you? I'm okay. We might have to cut to a commercial break because I've been having some sneeze attacks. Oh, okay. The allergies here. I don't know if the allergy are you an allergy person? No, well, no, not really. I feel like you're lucky. As long as I've known you, I've never really I don't ever feel like you've struggled with it.
SPEAKER_01It hits me every once in a while, but it's really specific.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think I say this every year. I think this year is the worst. Um the amount of tissues I've gone through. It's like only in the morning, too. I'll just sneeze a bunch and tissues like crazy. So I feel like it's stopped, but we'll see. Have they started shaking the trees around you? I don't think they have. No, I don't think they have. I don't know what it is. Although I'll be honest, because it is so nice out, I have a fan in the window, so I have like constant outside air blowing into the bedroom. So I'm wondering if that I'm just inviting it at this point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because it's weird. It's it's your sinuses are just breathing it in all night and in the morning.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's been beautiful out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it has.
SPEAKER_00You don't need the air, you see, they don't need the heat, and so I just want that cool air at night to come inside.
SPEAKER_01So maybe we keep our house hermetically sealed anyway, all the time.
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, maybe now that I think about it, that could be the cause is the huge box fan in my window.
SPEAKER_01Just blow it in. Maybe flip it around, have a blowout for a while.
SPEAKER_00That feels so good. You know, it's interesting. Uh, a couple of podcasts ago, we talked about how we weren't having a spring. I felt like the Lord heard us, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because it's been beautiful. I don't, I'm never, I would never take credit for anything like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're we're almost there, but we're not going to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but it is a beautiful week.
SPEAKER_00Like the last week or so, it's been beautiful.
SPEAKER_01I think that rain kind of was it. I was out of town when it was raining, but was it raining?
SPEAKER_00Uh it rained at night, didn't really didn't really rain during the days. Um, but it did it did rain at night a little bit. But um, it's been beautiful, yeah uh kind of warm in the in the afternoon and cool at night. Maybe it's been perfect. So and it looks like um it's gonna continue here for a little bit more. So I think we actually do have a spring here, which is exciting. Yep, don't hold your breath, people. Don't not not not that often we have a spring here. Well, we have a new bit today. We have a correction, we're gonna call it the podcast correction. And every podcast, we we definitely make sure we say that we uh are not professionals in basically anything that we talk about.
SPEAKER_01Um, I think it's important to note though that this segment will only come up if we get corrected. Yeah, we're not gonna actively try and come up with the answers.
SPEAKER_00I'm not spending time on Google correcting myself here. You know what I mean? And so we did have a listener text me about uh a couple of weeks ago. I think what was it, like favorite carnival food or something. Anywho, we talked about it. I don't we're talking about the Minnesota State Fair, and we talked about the difference between a pronto pup and a corndog. Was it like National Corn Dog Day or something? Yeah, I don't remember. Anywho, we have some friends, our friend Jenny back in Minnesota is basically the Minnesota State Fair pro. Um, she needs to just work there all she really does, she really absolutely does. She might mean she basically does already. Anywho, our discussion about the pronto pup and corn dog uh really got her inspired enough to text me because I basically said pronto pups are pancakes and corn dogs are cornbread, but I'm I'm gonna literally use what she said to me. So here you go. Our first podcast correction. She says the pronto pups use a savory flour-based batter, while conventional corn dogs feature a sweeter cornmeal heavy batter, and then she ends it with get it right. So there you go, people. All right, I'm still team corndog Jenny. So I mean I don't you're your your correction doesn't really change much on our end.
SPEAKER_01But I I if I was handed both of them, I would gladly eat both.
SPEAKER_00I mean, let's be honest. When you're at the Minnesota State Fair, yeah, you you went in Rome, but Team Corn dog. So um to date, we are recording on Friday, April 17th. I wish we were recording a couple of days ago because the Titanic fan in me is a huge I always know the date to the Titanic. April 12th that set sail, April 15th, it sank. But it stopped sailing. Yeah, it stopped sailing.
SPEAKER_01I thought you were gonna say that was the date that the movie came out.
SPEAKER_00Uh well, maybe you know what?
SPEAKER_01Did they do that? I don't know. Did James Cameron like really line it up?
SPEAKER_00That's a good that's a good question. I'll look that up later because that's a great question. April 17th. We got some really crazy and fun and uh national days here. So I'm actually looking forward to talking about some of these. This first one is actually randomly, it's it we could talk about this too. What are some very random things that are sentimental to people? This this one is one National Cheese Ball Day.
SPEAKER_01Are we talking like a Cheeto cheese ball or on the plate, like covered in nuts that you eat with crackers?
SPEAKER_00It's not yeah, that one, the latter. My grandma, grandma Marion always brought a cheese ball to family functions. Nice. So when I see a cheese ball, I think of my grandma. Yeah, so it's not necessarily my favorite thing to eat, but it's sentimental in the fact that when I see one, I think of my grandma. And my mother-in-law always has a cheese ball at family functions.
SPEAKER_01So well, they say that the taste and smell are the biggest memory triggers, absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And no surprise here, it's a food one for me, but yeah, so shout out to my grandma. National Cheese Ball Day. Where do you you like a cheese ball? I've never met one I didn't like. Yeah, yeah, that's true too. And then this next one is today is blah blah blah day.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly what we're doing.
SPEAKER_00Blah blah blah. Although the Seinfeld fan in me, I'm more of a yada yada yada guy.
SPEAKER_01See, I think uh the peanuts and the uh the trombone.
SPEAKER_00So today, if you if you feel like blah too, how about that?
SPEAKER_01Today's it's too nice of a day to feel if you feel like blah today, it's beautiful, get out and get some vitamin D.
SPEAKER_00Fire day. Yep.
SPEAKER_01What's this next one?
SPEAKER_00You said you had a story about this one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Ford Mustang Day. I don't know if my mom is listening to this, but I'm gonna tell a story about her 1965 Ford Mustang real quick. Um, this is a story that gets told around my family's dinner table for holidays. It's like it's one of those gather around the table, folks, and listen to the story of the Mustang. My mom had a Mustang. Um, I had a 65 Mustang. I don't know if she had it in 65. I don't think it was new. I think it was a couple years after that. Um, but randomly, she somehow managed with this Mustang to puncture a hole in the roof of her brother's. I think he had a Camaro of a similar year or something. So sports cars in the family. So his was parked at the bottom of the driveway. My mom's is parked on the driveway, fairly steep slope, which is a reoccurring theme in my family, apparently. It's an inside joke. If you don't understand that, I'm not gonna go into it today. But I wish we had cameras because I'll just oh um, so somehow she was she backed down or drove down the driveway, hit the curb, somehow bounced, and with her car punctured a hole in the hood of my uncle's car. There's a story there, and yeah, this is this is the way it's been told. This is the way my cousins know it, and it's I have no more details other than that, but it is the the the lore of the veil 65 Mustang.
SPEAKER_00When you mean like when you say hole, like how big is a hole can be a lot of enough to damage the carburetor.
SPEAKER_01I in my mind, I picture like a golf ball size hole.
SPEAKER_00Right. That's kind of where that's why I ask.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because there's nothing small on a Mustang that would puncture make a small hole, and uh also there's no word of any other damage to the hood. So it just like I don't know, it's the physics don't make sense, but it's this is not a story about physics. This is a story about a Mustang.
SPEAKER_00This is where you appreciate ring cameras because you know that probably would have gotten that. Oh, yeah. Oh, that'd have been great.
SPEAKER_01This would have been classic America's Funniest Home videos.
SPEAKER_00Have you ever sat down with your mom and be like, all right, mom, let's let's be real.
SPEAKER_01Like, no, she doesn't remember half the stories she told me. The only reason this one comes up is because everybody else talks about it.
SPEAKER_00I feel like there's a piece missed in here.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, well, you've met my mom.
SPEAKER_00There's many pieces, someone, someone with 80 and somehow like went airborne.
SPEAKER_01She's also on the other side of the world right now, so she's not gonna hear this for a while if she ever does. There you go.
SPEAKER_00I am not a car guy, but I I think I think the Ford Mustang is a pretty car.
SPEAKER_01The classic ones. There's some rough years in the 80s. Yeah, yeah. But again, I'm not a huge fan of the type E, even though Pastor Sean has one, and I'm sure it's a great car. It's it's kind of for lack of a better word, sacrilege.
SPEAKER_00It is weird again. I there's not many cars that can drive down the road, and I can tell you exactly what it is, but Mustang has that classic look where you you know it's a Mustang. Yeah, and uh, I think what got me to love uh the Mustang is that Gone in 60 Seconds movie. Oh, yeah, that Shelby Mustang.
SPEAKER_01I mean, yeah, Shelby GT500.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what what what did he name it? Eleanor. Eleanor. That's such a good movie. So yeah, if you have a Ford Mustang or you want one, I don't know, maybe two days to buy it. Uh National Crawfish Day.
SPEAKER_01Not a fan. Yeah, it's like a lot of work, and I'm not a big fan of like sucking out the juices out of the head. Yeah, it's weird.
SPEAKER_00And then we talked about this the last podcast, National Kickball Day.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's right. What was your uh Thunderball Thompson?
SPEAKER_00Thunderball Thompson Thompson.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00Did you play kickball in elementary school? That was a big deal.
SPEAKER_01It was never organized.
SPEAKER_00Oh, really?
SPEAKER_01It was always like it was always like a like a PE like option. You could do it, but it was never like there was no league, there was no choosing up sides. It was always like stand on the bases and have the ball kicked at you.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah. We it was during recess and we were we took it very seriously. But I love a good game of kickball. I was on TikTok the other day, and um there's a league now. Yeah, there's like some serious well, there's a league here in my salia. Kickball league, yeah. Oh wow, they play at the uh softball fields there off a plaza, but there's like professional kickball leagues. Well, not about professional, but like serious, very serious kickball leagues out there.
SPEAKER_01There's so many other things I would take seriously before kickball. Yeah, I mean, I'm not knocking them. It's a good release. The inner kid in me loves a good kickball game.
SPEAKER_00I haven't played it obviously in years, but I'm sure it's a great stress release, and we'll talk about that later. Yeah, for sure. And then April 18th, what's that first one, Josh? It's our day, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Our day, husband appreciation day. It is husband appreciation day.
SPEAKER_00Falls on a Saturday this year, so shout out to all the husbands. Yep, so appreciate the husbands out there. This next one is a point of contention for me. It is an international juggler juggler's day.
SPEAKER_01You can't juggle. I can't juggle. I wish there was a camera here. I would juggle right now.
SPEAKER_00Oh man, and it hasn't been a lack of trying either. It is one skill that I've actually tried to pick up every so that four years.
SPEAKER_01That is something I had in PE. Oh, middle school PE. You juggled? We had a juggling segment.
SPEAKER_00Really?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it was always done during the rainy season. Okay, and because it was like an indoor thing, yep, and you started out with like little couch balls. Remember when those were super popular?
SPEAKER_00Yep. I know exactly what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, thanks, Rosie O'Donnell. Yep, um, and uh it elevated you got as far you could you could go as high up as like basketballs. And I over the year, I think we did this like two, three years in a row, all through middle school. So sixth, seventh, and eighth grade for me. We had this uh unit, and I credit that for being able to juggle now. I can't juggle more than three, okay, but I can juggle two or three.
SPEAKER_00Um, I think we try with like the flags, like a little bit.
SPEAKER_01That's an easy one because it gives you more time to catch it as a fall down more slowly, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like or cape. Oh, yeah, flags, but um that you mentioned that I think we didn't have something like that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I again it's something where I have tried uh more than once to try and juggle. I haven't. Um, sometimes you go to like uh professional sports games, like I'm thinking basketball. There's like these crazy juggler tricks during the halftime show. I am drawn to that like crazy. It's good for eye hand coordination. Yeah, which I'm not saying I have the best, but I don't think I have bad. Just can never can never do it. I'm jealous, and then what's what's also what's that next one?
SPEAKER_01There we go. Animal cracker. I got my days mixed up. Yeah, National Animal Cracker Day. Frosted or unfrosted? Yes, are they the same thing? Are they both considered animal crackers? Yes, just yes, because I think of like the little red box with the string on it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I the whoever frosted animal crackers needs to be next to whoever's up there in Mount Rushmore. Next to who's on the left? Washington?
SPEAKER_01That sounds right, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Put them up next to Washington. Those frosted animal crackers are so good. Top five snack of all time.
SPEAKER_01I would agree. Only because I was never allowed to have them. So that means they're up there.
SPEAKER_00You can't eat four. No, it's 40. I mean, it's just one of those snacks. It's a fistful thing.
SPEAKER_01You don't stop until the bag ends.
SPEAKER_00It is a snack, or you do not stop until it's gone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh then I love the traditional animal crackers. Yeah, I mean, it's just a solid snack. I think traditional animal crackers are very, very underrated. So um, and then this next one. What really somebody has way too? Speaking of having too much time on the hands. My my my boys just got into the Jurassic Park movies, so they're I need to tell them this national velociraptor awareness day. I'm aware, count myself aware. I guess of all the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, the movie, the movie, the Velociraptor is the most inaccurate one.
SPEAKER_01I've heard that, and the only the only rebuttal to that is the the spitter. I can't remember his name, the one that kills Ned Landry. Yeah, the poison doesn't do any of those things that it does.
SPEAKER_00I heard that too. So I heard that the poison one that spits the spit, whatever. That's another one I don't like. Uh but I heard the Velociraptor is vastly exaggerated in the Jurassic Park franchise.
SPEAKER_01That is the dinosaur MacGuffin, though. I mean, if that if that wasn't the way it was, then that franchise would have died a very long time.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. It's it's the raptors and that one T Reps. If you don't have a movie with one of those things, yeah, you don't have it. So for those of you who are passionate about making sure people know that the Velociraptor is more of a size of a chicken, well then good for you. I mean, chickens are big these days, though. That can be scary too. Yeah. Especially with teeth. Oh my gosh. Uh April 19th, go fly a kite day.
SPEAKER_01That sounds like a curse. Not a curse. Like uh, why don't you go fly a kite? Yeah, like you could say that in a good in a with a good positive tone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01More often than not, I think I've heard it in a negative tone.
SPEAKER_00I I don't know if if Logan has done this yet, but I remember Mark, my son Mark, he was little. He wanted to fly a kite because we got him a kite and he wanted to fly it. That's what happens when you get kids a kite. I remember there's no wind, like zero wind. And he's trying, he's running around, and he's like, Well, I want to fly. And it was so heartbreaking to tell him, like, it's not gonna fly.
SPEAKER_01Those early physics lessons are tough.
SPEAKER_00He's like, He's like, Dad, how about you give it a try? I'm like, I'm sorry, my friend. You know, I'm sorry, dude. Like, there is absolutely no wind, it is not gonna fly. Now, that's a hard day. That's a hard day to tell a kid it's not gonna fly unless you're just running around doing a marathon. But yeah, it yeah, that's you you get a kite, you go to the beach, and that's that's it.
SPEAKER_01But is that kite now live in Cayukas?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I mean, maybe you could actually maybe yesterday you could have fought. It was breezy yesterday. Yeah, there's probably three days in Vicelia out of the year you could probably fly a kite. So uh you can introduce this next one. These actually, these next two are not my favorite.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm gonna say this next one and just we're gonna pause for silence. It's National Cat Lady Day. That was a drink of coffee.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm married to a cat lady, so uh, and then it's also National Garlic Day. National Garlic. Not a garlic guy. Really? No, I don't mind it being a part of the meal, but if I taste it, I'm not a big fan. Really? Okay, yeah. So that stretch in Hanford where you drive and you smell it. Holding your breath. Yep. Gilroy, which is I think the national garlic capital. There's also that stretch south of Bakersfield, too, in between like the grapevine. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. No, I'm not a big garlic guy. I'm just not. You're a big garlic guy.
SPEAKER_01I love garlic. Yeah, yeah. I love I've recently gotten into like the garlic stuffed olives.
SPEAKER_00Really good. That sounds like a nightmare. Don't like olives, don't like garlic. So the two things safe in my fridge is garlic and olives. Good to know. Um, some people love their garlic fries though. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm not a big garlic fry. Somebody sent me a picture of garlic fries the other day. Uh trying to think who has good garlic fries here in Vassalia.
SPEAKER_01Apparently, the guy in the green food truck.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01I don't know his name. I don't know what else he makes.
SPEAKER_00Someone told me that the I know you're a Dodgers fan, but someone told me the San Francisco Giants have good garlic fries. I've heard that. I've heard that. Couldn't tell you, but well, anybody again that could be another podcast correction. And then for those of you who like cartoons, it's Sylvester the Cat's birthday on April 19th. So that is Looney Tunes, right? Sylvester the cat.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's the one that went after he's the I I thought I thought putty cat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01No, that's Tweety Bird said that about Sylvester. Okay. I mean we would have saw him at Six Flags. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I I I did watch Looney Tunes when we were younger, but obviously I don't remember a ton. So and then we got some April fun facts here. I just thought we're in the month of April, we're kind of in the middle of it, I know, but uh the flower is the daisy. The burstone, we had a birthstone talk with Paul back some podcasts ago. Diamond.
SPEAKER_01Thank god nobody in my family is born in April. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Hold on. None of my family either. There you go. Yep. The herb is rosemary. Which I don't know what to do with that. Yeah, I'll tell you what, the rosemary bush grows really too fast because we planted one and it took over a part of our yard and it's now gone.
SPEAKER_01So rosemary. The yard is gone or the the bush is gone. You took it out, yeah.
SPEAKER_00All right, we are having technical difficulties here on the Grace Period podcast. This is our our second time now trying to record this bit, but um, we're trying some new stuff here. So we were talking about uh the April fun facts. We're talking about Rosemary, and then our Wi-Fi uh went out. That's great. Luckily, I was paying attention to the computer screen. I'm still looking at the computer, I don't know why, just more out of natural habit. Saw the Wi-Fi go out, and they were like, huh. So thankfully we stopped. Josh and I tried to record again, and Wi-Fi went out. So now we're we're kind of recording this remotely almost.
SPEAKER_01Almost blind.
SPEAKER_00Blind, deaf. We have no idea how this will turn out, both sound wise and quality-wise. Um, so we're just you are along the ride for this.
SPEAKER_01So first recording without headphones.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, first recording without headphones, which it feels weird already. I don't know about you. Yeah, but it does feel weird. I'm more I don't know why, but I'm like I feel vulnerable. Yeah. And I'm like, do I normally talk this loud? Do I normally not talk this loud? Like, I really have no idea. So we're gonna we're gonna figure it out. So thank you for sticking with us. Although, you know what, this is our what 16th episode, and we've been like mostly Yeah, pretty lucky. We've been pretty Clean uh until now. Had a remote location episode as far as technical stuff. So, I mean, to be honest, we knew it was a matter of of when, not if.
SPEAKER_01It comes down to the universe does not want you to talk about ducks.
SPEAKER_00I guess. Every time I mention the word ducks, and so I just checked right now to make sure we're still recording, and we are. So yeah, that was the last. I think that was the last fun fact that we didn't mention was the bird of the month is a duck for April.
SPEAKER_01It's Michael J's favorite bird.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I wish I would have known that last week because clearly he's he needs to get out more and see more birds because he's just making not make the how many ducks are you really seeing in West Hollywood though? Although he does live uh what's Hollywood. Echo Park, Echo Lake, whatever, Silver Lake. It's that random lake there. But I don't know if there's any ducks there. I don't know. He's just I guess he's a he's a he's a fan of ducks, which I guess I am. I'm not. Not tasty. Yeah, I don't know where I stand on ducks. I guess they're just kind of neutral for me. So anywho, the conversation today is actually one that Josh is gonna lead, which is exciting. Josh came to me a couple days ago and had some ideas, and I'm kind of curious, Josh, you were able to get away last weekend to your to your brother's place in I mean, it's not NorCal, but in Northern California. You're pretty close to the Oregon border.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you can you uh uh you know a strong arm could probably throw a rock and hit Oregon from where my brother is. We actually drove up to the border on a dirt road. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00I do remember uh we did the Portland serving trip here so many years ago, and that was my first time ever going uh north of Sacramento. Oh wow because up until that point, yeah. The state keeps going. Yeah, Sacramento, I guess west, like Napa Valley, but I've never been more north than Sacramento, and that's when I truly realized how big the state is. I was like, there is a lot of state left uh past Sacramento.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's something like uh from Sacramento, you see the sign outside the airport that says like 200 and something miles to Waireca. Yeah. And then that's another like 30 or 40 miles to the border.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that and and Northern California is like its own state in itself, not state of Jefferson. Yeah, it's beautiful up there though. Absolutely, it's God's country up there. So um, how about you introduce the topic, Josh, and and kind of more than anything, introduce it, but kind of like why you want to talk about it and what sparked this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so part of the reason for my trip, and um part of the reason why one of one of the things I do when I feel this way is travel and go on long car rides. But what I'm leading at is the topic of burnout. Um, I think a lot of us, if not all of us, have experienced some type of burnout in our lives, uh, maybe multiple times, um, maybe you know, brought on by multiple different things. But it's it's something that's happened to me a couple of times. It's something I kind of it's almost like a fear in the back of my mind a lot of time, of like it's it's why I've chosen the career path that I'm on, kind of, um and why I'm reluctant to go on other career paths. Um and yeah, that's kind of what I want to talk about um today.
SPEAKER_00So when you brought this up a couple days ago, I'll be honest, I've been giving it a lot of thought just because of I think it's a it's a great topic. And I think it's something that at some point everyone's gonna have to deal with. I I talk about that, the confirmation students a lot, the ninth grade confirmation students in particular, where we talk about issues where it's not a matter, again, if it's going to happen, but when. And I think burnout, unfortunately, is a topic where like you're gonna get burnt out at some point in your life regarding something.
SPEAKER_01I feel like it's happening to kids now, earlier and earlier. Yeah, no, the amount of pressures that are put on them, yeah. So easy to slip into that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and again, as uh you mentioned this topic uh the other yesterday I was at the gym just thinking about it of like all the different types of burnout and and how I've experienced burnout both personally and like with other people. And so I'm very, very um not curious, but I'm excited to have this conversation. And so Josh kind of uh it was great. Josh kind of uh provided here some some causes and and types. Where do you want to go with this?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think we'll kind of go down the list. Um, we'll start with like the types, okay. Um, and real quick, like total disclaimer. There a lot of people can get conf like burnout is often confused with depression. And so we'll give that off the butt off the off the top right away. Like, if if this is something that we've all experienced it, but if it's lingering, if you can't get rid of it, go and talk to somebody for sure. Somebody, some professional that can help you figure out what's going on and figure out if it's something that needs professional attention.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and life is all about a web. I think life is like a spider's web. Like almost everything is connected. Oh, yeah. Very rarely do you when you have one issue, it's a single issue, and nothing everything else is peachy, right? So that's a great disclaimer. I think sometimes burnout can be can be can connected to other things. Yeah, and obviously we're not professionals here too. And so, um, yeah, absolutely. I think that's the part of burnout too, is communication. Yeah, we'll talk about that, I'm sure, here later. But I think like every other issue we're dealing with is making sure you have a community around you, other people know, um, because that's what matters regardless of any issue, grief, burnout, anger, confusion, like having that community around you or people in your life that know about it is very, very key.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we'll get into a couple of the different types of burnout. I'm gonna be saying burnout a lot, and it's gonna turn into one of those times where it stops being a word and starts being a sound. Right. Um, but the first one is overload, which is probably the more common, I would think. Um, and it's uh this happens when you work harder and harder, becoming frantic in your pursuit of success. You experience this, you may be willing to risk your health and personal life to feel successful. So you're you're putting everything else on the back burner in order to gain that level of success that you feel you need. That's kind of the best definition for overload burnout. Um, on the flip side of that is underchallenged burnout. When you feel underappreciated and bored, uh your job doesn't provide learning opportunities, you have or or give you room to grow professionally. Um, you may feel underchallenged, you may feel you you may distance yourself, become cynical, and avoid responsibilities. Um, that one I see happening a lot as I've gotten more into like the office life. Yeah. Um, the cube farm, that kind of thing. Um neglect burnout is a third type. Uh this happens when you feel helpless. Um, things aren't going right for you. You may believe you're incompetent or unable to keep up with your responsibilities. This can be closely connected to imposter syndrome, um and which is a psychological pattern in which you doubt your abilities, talents, or accomplishments. Um, as we see, as we are more and more connected to the world, I think imposter syndrome is becoming more prevalent as we like, you know, we see other people that do what we do and they're doing it differently or better, or something like that. Or like, well, am I really that am I really that good at what I do or as good as I think or I'm being told?
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, the last one on this list is habitual burnout, which is um more of one of the other types that just doesn't go away. Yeah. Um, it happens often you can get out of it, but it comes back on. Um, manifested by physical and mental fatigue, um, chronic physical and mental fatigue. You feel sad, your behavior changes, and this is when you can cross into actual depression. Um, this is if this is something that happens, this is definitely one of those times where you need to go talk to somebody professionally. Um and uh yeah, it says in big word bold words there it is crucial to seek help at this stage. When I was researching this topic, more of outside of my own putting my own personal thoughts down, it was I was trying, I was trying to avoid WebMD like we were talking before this. Yeah, and every single site I was looking at was referencing WebMD. So I finally was like, fine, we'll go with it. I'm not trying, we're not diagnosing anybody here, we're not doing anything, I'm not self-diagnosing. Right. Um, so yeah, I'm okay with this. So before we move on though, like what type Snol do you feel like you've experienced?
SPEAKER_00I think I've experienced kind of all of them in some sort of in some sort of way. Um again, I'm not a professional here. I also think habitual burnout can be tied in habitual neglect, right? Or habitual under challenge or habitual overload. The overload one is kind of very interesting to me because I think that one sometimes either by choice or not by your choice. Is when you work harder and harder, becoming frantic in the pursuit of success. Um, you you you could overload yourself, or maybe your your job could overload you as well, right? Like either you put more stuff on your plate because you want to have that pursuit of success, or maybe because it can be very self-sabotaging. Absolutely, or maybe someone is just over just your work in itself is very, very overloading. One thing that kind of came up to my mind though as I was as I was thinking about this topic was COVID. How during COVID we experienced, I think a lot of people experienced burnout, which is interesting because it's like we're kind of stuck in our homes, we really couldn't go anywhere. So I'm glad you brought these types because I was like, how do you explain that? I don't know if that's neglect, because I think that neglect, that first sentence here it says helplessness. This happens when you feel helpless.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think that was COVID. You know, a lot of people had that cabin fever, they didn't know what to do, they didn't know really what to think, and those are all valid feelings because I think that was all most of us. But kind of feeling helpless. So it's interesting when you're, I guess, stuck at home, you're not necessarily exercising. Oh no, like you're not putting, you know, but how fatigued you got mentally and even physically by that neglect burnout. So I think with all these types, Josh, I think I've experienced a little bit of all of each, both professionally, um, personally, and I think I don't know how how much longer you want to talk about this part, but I think I don't know, I can be corrected here, but like it's it's interesting how burnout can last a month or a year, or like you know, like like I I think I want to discuss that too. Like, when does a when does burnout happen? Is it over a couple of weeks? Is it a month? I mean, I I don't know the answer to that question, but um that's something too that I've been thinking about is is at what point do you reach the burnout stage? And so I'm sure we'll talk about that here later. Is there a type, Josh, for you that you've I mean you kind of alluded to it as you were kind of reading this off. Is there one that you've kind of dealt with more than the other um so far in your life?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think it's been more of like the overload and underchallenged, which is an odd combination to have. Yeah. Because I will find myself at times just over overloaded with tasks that need all need to be done. They're all important in one way or another. And these are all in my professional life. Yep. Um, this is you know, this can all be compounded with your obligations at home as well. Um, but from the professional life standpoint, like being overloaded with lots of different stuff going on, and then in my job, it's kind of I'm seasonally busy. Yeah. And so once that section is done, and there's a reason why a bunch of us take time off after budget season because we need it. Um, and I'm learning that. But uh, once that's done, I almost feel the flip side where I'm like, okay, so what now? Yeah, you know, my my mind at work is always racing to try and figure out what to answer all these questions that I need to answer, um, get all this stuff prepared for the future and plan as best I can with all these different variables that are happening. Um, and then once it's all done, it's done. Which is kind of nice because there is a sense of finality to it, which a lot of people don't get. It's the it's less of a rat race in that case. But um there's also like well, what now? Yeah. Like I can't, I can't, I can always plan for the next big thing that's gonna happen, and the next thing after that, and the next thing after that, but I mean, when is enough? Like, yeah, I can't I'm and I'm almost worried about when that happens. So um I have felt a little bit of the the neglect burnout and COVID was a great example of that. That was definitely I've talked about that before, the panic attack I had during that time, and it was from a sense of helplessness, um, not coming from a position where I'm used to relying on other people or having no control over a situation, and we were all kind of forced into that situation at one in one way or another. Um, and like you said, also the the habitualness of all of this, I think that's for all of them. Yeah, because I mean if if you're lucky enough to only have one burnout episode and you've recognized it and you know how to go from there on, and we'll talk more about what to look for and triggers and that kind of stuff. But um that's amazing. Yeah, I think for most of us it's more like navigating from one to the next, to the next, to the next.
SPEAKER_00You know what's interesting now. I've been looking at this, I can say to you, I've never been under challenged burnout, but hold on. I think I am so scared of being under challenged burnout, I've I run to the overload burnout. Yeah, I can see that. You know, you know what I mean? Like I am so scared of being complacent in life that I have like I just run from it so far that I prefer to be overloaded. So um, yeah, as I as I was just like looking at this, I'm like, I don't, you know, I was reading the description of maybe your job doesn't provide learning opportunities or growth and or you feel underchallenged. Like I'm so scared of being in that place that like I just like I fly away from it as much as I can to the point where it's like nope, I would rather be overloaded than underchallenged. Um it's it's interesting how sometimes you avoid certain burnout and prefer another burnout, I guess, as I'm thinking out loud.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I mean you don't almost don't think of like the under underchallenged as being a type of burnout, but it can it's it's an it's an easy position to slip into.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think when people become complacent, they they become robotic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think that in itself is is is burnout in the sense where they just they lack the passion and and the energy and and motivation and confidence, and that in itself is burnout.
SPEAKER_01You just kind of like I think it's that one maybe probably harder to recognize when you're in it.
SPEAKER_00When you're on autopilot, you're just you kind of like don't care, and that in itself is is a is a is a burnout too. So yeah, I'm so scared of that that I'd rather just have my plate be extra full than sure be there and complacent.
SPEAKER_01So we want to move on to like the stages of burnout. Yeah, very careful. This is great. It's definitely not something burnout is not something that starts over time. I really got to come up with a synonym for burnout because I'm already getting tired of saying exhaustion, maybe, yeah, run down. Um insert word here. Um so there's 12 stages of burnout that a couple of psychologists have come up with. Okay. Um, I'm not gonna credit them, but um, we have an urgent need to prove yourself. I can definitely definitely experience that in the past. Um working harder, you feel you need to do everything yourself and complete tasks as soon as possible. Um, I think our generation is definitely like uh I'm just gonna do it myself generation. Absolutely, and the one before us as well. Um neglecting your needs, you think the stress of work or activities such as caregiving is normal. Um, you neglect your social life and look down on others who pursue one, you begin to make small mistakes. So we're getting into the stages of when you reach at the end of this, we have reached total burnout. So these are the stages that we would go through. This one, I think, is where it starts to manifest itself outside of your own head. Um, because you're starting, you know, you're neglecting your personal life, you're starting to make mistakes on other things because you're so laser focused on this one thing, and you are convincing yourself that it's normal, that the stress you're feeling about it is normal. Um, next stage you have you experience more interpersonal conflicts with co-workers, friends, partners. Um, sleeping is start starts to be difficult. Um, other physical complaints might come up, or you start to become forgetful. Um then you reach the revision of values. I think this is kind of these are very similar 12 steps to other 12 steps. Yeah. But this would be almost like the bargaining. You see your things differently. You begin to seem insensitive to others around you. Friends and family become secondary to your goals. Next, we're on step six now is denial. Um, bitterness and cynicism creep in, you begin to cut yourself off from others, becoming impatient, intolerant, and angry. Your performance suffers, and you feel physical discomfort. Um, withdrawal is the next step. Dealing with others feels like a burden, you get angry, or someone criticizes you, and you may feel disoriented or helpless. Um, you may try self-medicating with alcohol or other substance other substances. Um I think before we go on to the next the last four or five here, yeah. All of these I think it's really easy to bounce around in be inside of these stages.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they very yeah. We're saying them in order, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01I've also, as I'm reading them through again, I've realized I have like I may have always started at one. Yeah, sometimes I'll jump up to four. Sometimes I'll fall back into two working harder, sometimes I'll be in denial for a really long time. Um, so it's like the all these things you can fall right into any of them. They're not necessarily like the stages that you're gonna go through that everybody is gonna go through.
SPEAKER_00And just like the stages of life, you might spend more time on number four than on number two.
SPEAKER_01Like you're I'm thinking grief stages. Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah, I I'll think about that too. We're we're you know, Josh is saying them in order, but very rarely does life go by the order that we think it's so yeah, you might be, you know, number two working harder. That might that season might be, or that stage rather, might, you know, be longer for you than maybe number three. And then kind of like earlier, like I think all this is sometimes a web, like one definitely affects the other. There's a ripple effect too. So um, this could be a mixture of things, could be one thing. Again, we're all different, and every situation's different, every burnout is different, and so yeah, because we all have different professional lives, social lives, our mental health. I mean, everything. There's this is such a a crazy thing to talk about a great thing to talk about, but it's also it's hard to pinpoint because we're all so different and we deal with things differently.
SPEAKER_01So um, the last ones kind of um I can be grouped together. We have behavioral changes, uh, such as apathy or avoidance, um, depersonalization, you start to lose your own identity, um, probably falling into whatever is causing you the burnout. Um, feeling of meaning your life feels meaningless. Um feeling empty is another step. Um, exhaustion, anxiety, panic, um, despair is the final one before we reach the end. You have feelings of self-hatred, depression coupled with suicidal thoughts, and then you've reached total burnout. So, congratulations, you've reached total burnout. Um, that is the the stages of burnout, as told by two psychologists who I can't pronounce their last names. Yeah. Um, but yeah, like Noel said, all of these can come and go. You're not gonna go from stage one to twelve. You could fall right in the middle of one, you could experience some without the others. Absolutely. So it's really important to recognize when you start getting up to those big words like exhaustion, um, anxiety, self-hatred, depression, that's when you really need to that's that's when I think you really need to recognize it um and figure out how to fix it.
SPEAKER_00And and you know, if I could just be vulnerable here, I absolutely I think as I'm looking at these stages, I think I've gone, Josh. I think I've gone. So number one, an urgent need to prove yourself, number two, working harder. I I think I those are two huge ones for me.
SPEAKER_01And those just sound like on on their own, that just sounds like a good word, working ethic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I've gone from number one to number two to straight to number ten. Yeah. Of feeling empty, you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and so I've kind of skipped, sometimes I've skipped a few of these, and and that's okay. Like again, life, I don't know. You know, I think life laughs at us when we try to put life into an equation. So, um yeah, absolutely. Number one, number two, that can be you could just think you're always trying to prove yourself and working harder, but I think also they sound like positive things on their own. Absolutely, but the an urgent need to prove yourself and working harder, sometimes you don't include others. Yeah. And so Like for me, when I've been burnt out is when I'm trying to do everything by myself. I'm not having people around me help me in ministry or or or whatever. And so um I know that doesn't like say that on there, but when I when I read an urgent need to prove yourself, when I read working harder, I also kind of read that as you're not including others in to help you carry that weight that you're you're facing or or or you're carrying.
SPEAKER_01So um that's a good lean in to the next um topic-ish type thing is causes. I've got another long list of causes. I don't think it's necessary to read them all. I would rather talk about what ours are. Yeah. Um and for lack of a better word or for lack of a triggering word, the word trigger. Um what kind of triggers um your burnout? I know you just mentioned a couple of them, trying to do everything on your own, yeah, not asking for help, that kind of stuff. But what are there some others that you've recognized? Because a lot of times, I know for me, my triggers, I don't think about them until they're way behind me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I have to actively think back of like, how did I get to this stage? What caused this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I can say the only way I know my triggers now is from past burnouts. So I I've been able to uh look back and be like and learn from my mistakes, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. So that first few burnouts, I had no idea what my triggers were, but now looking back, and so I remember uh the very first time I I think it's just doing ministry, it's those summers where we do Thailand and then summer adventure camp and summer servant trip and family camp. And so um because I wasn't always the youth minister here during those first kind of few Thailand trips, but it was that first summer where I did, you know, Thailand all through June, and then summer adventure camp and senior high servant trip in July, and then family camp. Like I try to do that all by myself. Like I try to be like, I can do this, and I think almost I'll be honest, I think people are like, Oh no, you're doing a lot. I think a part of me, the pride of me, enjoyed that. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? That's recognition. Yeah, you know, I think there's a little bit of an ego there.
SPEAKER_01Wow, we can't meet we can't believe you're doing all that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, and and don't get me wrong, I love and that's a thing too. Burnout often involves things you love doing. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like I love doing all these things, and I think that's kind of what blinds you to burnout. Is sometimes you could be burnt out about something you have passion for. And I I'll do another tangent, is like softball. I was part of a men's recreational softball team, what you know, and believe it or not, I got burnt out of that just because of just it took time away from my family and stuff like that. And just over time, I was like, I just need a break. But um, so my trigger is like, you know what? Next time I have a crazy summer of Thailand, summer adventure camp, I need to bring people around me. Yeah, I need I need to carry that load. And so, you know, I I'll even like you've now become part of that Thailand leadership team. I'll shout out to you know the Caristas and Carols and having people help me with summer adventure camp, decorating the sanctuary, you know, the Frankie Hartmanns. Like it's like no no, like bring a team around you so that you can um help that. So I think a burnout cause for me as I'm looking at this is again um trying to do everything by myself. I think uh taking on too much without asking for help. That's that's one of the bullet points. Like that for sure is is me. Is I I I take on too much, and sometimes I I have a hard time asking for help. And it it took one summer. I remember Pastor Brian was like, never again. He literally told me one time he's like, You're not doing having a summer like that again without help.
SPEAKER_01And I was like, Yeah, yeah, you're right. And so that's and uh a lot of times it takes an outside influence to help you recognize what you just went through.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely, and so how detrimental that is to you. Yep. And then personality traits, I don't think I'm a perfectionist, but I think sometimes you just want everything to go well, and I think you've seen that as you've been a chaperone on servant trips, on and especially on Thailand too. I want things to go well so much all the time.
SPEAKER_01Well, we touched on that when we were talking with Pastor Sean about being a participant rather than a leader on a trip like that. I are you capable of doing that now? And it's pretty healthy to be able to recognize the answer to that is no. I can't.
SPEAKER_00I can't, I and and I think that's the good leader in me, and that's also the bad leader in me. Um, I put so much energy into the details, I think that kind of burns me out too. Yeah. So um, and case in point, when we finally oh my gosh, Thailand trip number three, I think it was. It was our biggest team at that point. And I remember at the end of that Thailand trip just being like, I'm never doing this again. Like because I was just so overwhelmed by even though the team was like four or five P four or five uh people larger, or four or five, yeah, you know, whatever. Um, even just having four or five more people than the other previous trip, it's it made such a drastic difference. It took so much more. It changed everything, yeah. And that was the summer, coincidentally, that Brian was like, never again. And so that's when I was like really I think that was the first time I was burnt out here at church, and that led to my sabbatical because I was like, Yeah, I need to I need to get people around me to help me. And so, um, so kind of the causes for me are definitely uh taking on too much without asking for help. Um you know, there's that line that says worker responsibilities that feel too demanding. I demand almost too much of myself, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01Um and that's a product of I mean, for lack of a better word, the industry that you're in. Yeah. Yep. Um because everybody's gonna you're either going to be in a position to give yourself more work, yeah, or you're going to be given that by somebody else. And both of them can feel helpless when they're happening.
SPEAKER_00And I don't know if this is on here, uh, Josh, but I feel like a a cause of burnout could also be you don't want to say no. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean that I I can that's definitely part of um overloading yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Is is is people pleasing and not being able to say no. I think that leads to a lot of burnout. Yeah. Is is you want to pee you want to please everybody, and you can't say no to to people and favors or other opportunities.
SPEAKER_01Um learning how to say no and who you can say no to. Yeah. I I've been in when I first started with the county, I was definitely in a few meetings where we were going around introducing ourselves and what our role in that meeting was. And I was in a position where I would have been there long enough to be familiar with everybody at the table, but not long enough to realize whether or not I was supposed to be at that table. Yeah. And I literally introduced myself one time as my name's Josh. This is my position, and I'm here because I don't know if I'm allowed to say no yet. And it got some laughs, and uh shortly after that, they're like, Yeah, you don't need to be here.
SPEAKER_00I was like, Well, why didn't you tell me that? That like good for you. I think too, like I I think I can say I can finally say no. But I think it's because I've been here so long. Yeah. So it took me eight years of saying yes.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, you've you've definitely figured out what is on your plate. It's a massive plate, but you've figured out what's on it and what's not and what doesn't belong there.
SPEAKER_00But that's good for you to kind of start that early, though.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I did it in a self-deprecating, completely like self-sabotaging way, but yes.
SPEAKER_00But sometimes I think but how much is but to your point though, how much is our pride and ego cause our burnout?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, like you you say you, you know, you self-sabotage, but I don't think that's self-sabotage. I think you kind of stood up for yourself and you brought like comedy or humor to it, which I think is good. Uh I would say sometimes if you look at my past burnouts because of pride or evil. Like at that southball thing, I was the manager of the softball team. I was, you know, it's like, no, no, like take a break, you know. This is supposed to be fun. Yeah. It got to a point where it kind of wasn't. So yeah. Um, any other causes out there on this list, Josh, that kind of um for your burnout or or maybe they surprised you, like, oh, this is a uh a cause of my burnouts.
SPEAKER_01A lot of mine come from um idolizing what I thought I wanted to happen, and I'll get into more detail in a section in a second, but getting into a position that I thought I wanted and realizing it wasn't what I wanted, but sticking it out because I was too prideful to admit that I didn't like it, and then burning out and leaving it behind. And more s to get more specific, it was I I've I told the um Mustang story. My family is uh my my mom's side of the family had a a deep love of cars. My my grandpa, my uncle both worked on cars in various professional and non-professional ways throughout their lives, still do. Um, and I grew up kind of revering that. They were the male role models in my life, so I was like, sure, why not? I'll become a mechanic. That's cool. Um I went I went as far as like I went to school to do it, I went to two years of college to do that. Um, I ended up with uh an AA in automotive technology. I worked for um, and the goal was to work for a Toyota dealership. Um that was just the path that my community college had. They had a partnership with Toyota and they did that. So I went through that whole thing, and about halfway through the program, I started working for a dealership. And you start as low man on the totem pole. Um, actually, if you know totem poles, high man on the totem pole, but that's another story for another day. Um, and you know, I was washing cars, I was moving them around, I was doing oil changes and tire rotations, nothing technical, nothing fancy. And about a year into it, they got to know they got around to looking at my resume. And by that point, I had worked retail for four and a half years and I had been a supervisor, and they're like, Oh, he knows how to talk to people. Most mechanics don't. Yeah, we want him on the service drive. And so that changed from turning wrenches to selling service, which is I learned later in life that selling anything to do with selling your car, whether you're actually selling the physical car or selling maintenance packages or maintenance service to that car is like the second or third most emotional purchase a person makes. No, that makes sense. Being like the house is number one, and you know, your car is your main way of getting around and being independent and having a life and a job. So um I got into that and I quickly learned that all the stigmas behind dealerships, specifically not all mechanics, but dealerships specifically big corporate ones, were true. Um, I was being told to sell stuff that didn't need to be sold. I was being I learned the difference between required and recommended. Um, and I was really good at it. And I didn't like the fact that I was really good at it, and I asked them to send me back in the shop and to bring it all around. They finally did, and I realized I didn't want to be there anymore. And I realized that I don't like turning wrenches, I don't like working on cars, especially for a living.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And it's not worth it to me. I looked around and I saw all these guys that were really good at what they did, but miserable.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And I was like, I don't want to do this. And that's when I went back to school, finished a couple of classes, then transferred up to Humboldt and spent four years there, and it was that I was able to recognize that, but it's it that experience has made it so I am super hesitant to make a career out of anything I enjoy doing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because I loved working on cars, I love tinkering around in my garage. I still do for a lot of things, just not on vehicles. Um, but I also love cooking. Yep, you do. And I've been told by a bunch of people, like, why don't you go to school to do that? Or why don't you, you know, make that pursue that as a career? I am deathly afraid of hating to cook after that. Yeah, no, and so I'm not gonna do it. I that might be something I fall into like near retirement or after retirement when I find out retirement is not gonna support my life. Yeah, but for now, like no, I'll I'll keep doing it because I love to do it. Yep. Um, but though that's been my biggest cause of burnout is falling into something that I thought I wanted to do, realizing it sucks, and not being able to get out of it fast enough.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I feel like too, like we're not here to obviously like promote burn, you know, go and burn out, but there's a silver lining to it too, right? I think I mean that's you know, uh looking back and reflecting, I think sometimes it's always good to have like a post-meeting after your burnout almost, you know, like a post-reflection because yeah, you you want to figure out what were the causes, what were the triggers, what were the stressors, and why what made you burnt out so that way you could be better equipped to avoid that as much as possible moving ahead. But maybe your burnout opened some doors, maybe your your burnout opened your eyes to certain things, to certain habits, to certain passions, to certain things where you're like, Oh yeah, maybe uh you know, I think like anything in life, you can kind of look back and always reflect and and learn some lessons about it.
SPEAKER_01Um It was definitely the push I needed to get out of town. Yeah, to get out of interrupts, move up as far away as I could, right without paying out of state tuition, and you know, finish my finish my bachelor's basically. And that's that's what I needed. And I went through a lot of stress to do that, but it definitely I'm definitely in a better place because of it.
SPEAKER_00And you're talking it's interesting too, Josh. You're talking about burnout that you can control too. Oh yeah, you know, and I think it's also very wise to to also just immediately be like, is this in my control or is this out of my control? Because I think that sometimes will help your mental health almost, if that makes sense, because you sometimes you want to control everything, but there is that sudden realization and almost a piece when you're like, I'm not in control. You have to realize like immediately you gotta let that wave roll over you a little bit, yeah. It's good to just kind of have that moment of like, is this something out of my control or is this something in my control? Um yeah, I so I did my sabbatical in January 2020 to help my burnout from work. So I come back from Thailand, um, all rejuvenated. It was a great sabbatical, it was an amazing sabbatical. And your first solo trip there, right? Yeah, my first solo trip ever to Thailand. So I was able to just do things I've never done. I did a silent retreat in a Buddhist temple for 48 hours. It was amazing. And then I I come back in January, and then COVID happens that March. Yeah, and so that's kind of what I'm talking about, right? Is like immediately like that control and auto control. And so um there's just some things in life I think you just have to be like, I am in control of this, and then there's sometimes you gotta be like, I'm not in control, and then how do you obviously navigate that and how do you move forward? So so yeah.
SPEAKER_01So how does it manifest your s manifest in you? Like what are your signs that you've been able to recognize that you are in a stage of burnout? And more importantly, I think, is how have you I know we're not in control of all these, but how have these signs like impacted those around you?
SPEAKER_00You know, I'll go back to caring about the details and putting a lot of energy into details, especially when I'm leading trips. When I I don't want to say overreact, but when I sometimes I let the little things bother me way too much. Um so for example, if we're on a servant trip and let's say something goes awry, right? Out of my control, but it's a detail that I wish it's a small detail, it it'll affect me more than it probably should. But because I'm so in because I I I I want to make sure everything goes I guess perfectionist, I guess. But when I just want things to go well all the time, and when the smallest thing doesn't go well and it just like really gets at me, I think that's a sign. Yeah, that's a sign where it's like, you know what, Noel, like just let it kind of roll, let it bounce off you. It's not that big of a deal. Um so for me, that's a sign where like I need to almost calm down almost, but also too, I think that's a sign of for me burnout is because I am just putting I I'm putting almost way too much on my plate. I gotta just let things kinda go, if that makes sense. Which is interesting because that's a definition of youth ministry is running by the state of your pants. Yeah, like there's just so much you can't control. Um, so that that's kind of one.
SPEAKER_01But when when you you talked about that being a the definition of youth ministry, like there are you've recognized the fact that there are a million things you cannot control, but that means you grasp onto the things you think you can control even harder.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yep, absolutely. And then another one is just I think for me is is saying no to people who want to help me, which is a weird sentence to say.
SPEAKER_01That's when you you that's a okay. When I don't want help. When you obviously need it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, when someone's like, hey, let me know if you need help. I'm like, no, I'm good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I've definitely heard you say that to me like that.
SPEAKER_00Let me know if I can bring cookies to the party. No, we're good. I'll take care of them. It's like, what am I doing? You know what I mean? It's a yeah, so I think that's a sign when I when I say no. Um, that's me trying to do it by myself, like that's me um trying to take on too much. Yeah, so I mean I don't know if I answer your question. Um those are kind of something. But I'll be honest, I'm so bad at this. This is why I was kind of not looking for this topic. I really don't know when I'm working out. Yeah, it's definitely something you can't see at the moment. I'm not great. It's not something I've at that we can master. It's not something I've remotely mastered.
SPEAKER_01I find for me, I find myself getting really short. Very few people have seen it really bad. And there's a reason for that. Um but I find this actually uh see and I live very different, drastically different lines. Um I was mentioning I started here like that. And I feel like it's flipping to I feel like reversed in a lot of ways. Like the core memories I have, which are not possible. Um I jump into that. So it's gonna come back to that in the moment, because it's gonna be all the data uh these are just manifesting themselves in the moment, and I am on the verge of losing control. And so that's how that's how it affects me a lot of times when uh I need other people to call it. And um it's easily given it in the right hand. Um and that's that makes you know we do that for ourselves too, yeah. Like that's that's how usually it manifests itself to me. I go through all the stages internally, a lot of them anyway. And um as we read through those, I can I I was thinking back of times that I've hit almost all of those stages at one time or another. Um But when it when it starts to the the outward signs of burnout from me, that's what it happens. Um and that's when it's like the most concerning for me. Yeah. Because I don't want my son to have those those therapy moments, future therapy moments. Like I I I jokingly said I'm gonna start putting money aside for his therapist now because it's gonna be expensive. Um but uh yeah, that that's like that's kind of where it comes from for me.
SPEAKER_00Um I realize for me, something to add, I think something you said is I I think for me it it's it's going back to learning to say no. I think I I overcommit myself and um and I'll I'll say yes to things without even checking my planner, without even checking with my wife. I'll just be like, yes, yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01Because I think I just wanna Does Rachel help bring you in?
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, 100%. She'll be like, Oh no, your son has a concert that night. Oh, you know what I mean? Like so it's just I I just say yes because I think it's I don't want to say no. I don't want to disappoint people. Yeah, I don't want to I want to I always want to be there for people. And so I think for me it's always like yes, yes, yes, yes. And then I I don't even know what I'm saying yes to half the time. And so for me, I I think I've I'm not great at it yet, but I've learning to say no. Has been very it's this has probably only happened the last two years, honestly. It's learning to say no has done wonderful things for me and my mental health because again, it has a like nope. I I'm I'm I'm taking a break from softball. Like that was kind of a big deal. I know for others like, oh, he's talking about softball, but no, that was every Thursday.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Year round. That's a huge commitment, you know. That get that bring at and at that point, I mean, it probably wasn't bringing you any of the joy that it started out doing when you began.
SPEAKER_00I'm sending out text messages trying to find 12 guys to run a team. Like it's just I was like, I need to I needed to to say no to that. And so um, so yeah, I think just the commitment thing for me, that's that's usually a sign when people are like when I overcommit myself. Um that's definitely a sign or stage rather is is trying to please people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So let's talk about how we move on and how we treat it. Um a lot of the stuff we've talked about are work-related. So having a good working communication with your boss or supervisor, that's that's that's an easy one to say out loud, a hard one to practice. Yep. Um but it is really important. Um, I'm lucky enough to have a good supervisor who is open whenever, excuse me, whenever I need to be like, I don't know what you're asking of me, and I don't know why I'm getting all this other stuff put on my plate. So having that um is a real big one for me uh that I'm lucky enough to. And uh at the same time, having a spouse that can see the signs of burnout in me way before I see them um is really important as well. Um how do you treat once you've once you're in the moment, once you've had the episode and you're able to recognize it and you need to get out of it, you recognize the need to get out of it, how do you get out of it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm I'm kind of like you. I think literally just leaving the area, getting like getting away like physically being away from from the area, but um going to the coast, the ocean um does something. And so I try to spend intentional time at the coast with my family. Um, you know, we're I'm planning that right now in June and parts of July. Of our you know, the summer's kind of randomly busy, and so taking advantage of that. I'm also blessed like you with a great supervisor, and so I've kind of kind of told Sean, like, here are my plans for this, my plans for that. So, you know, being a relaxing activity, I'm a big mindfulness guy. I meditate as much as I can.
SPEAKER_01Um I wish I learned how to do that. Yeah, I I that's great.
SPEAKER_00I did that. Um, I took an Eastern religious class in college and and did we did mindfulness, and that was just something I just really tackled and has really helped me kind of calm myself. There's a bullet point here that says get enough sleep. That's never me.
SPEAKER_01Um but that's yeah, and I I I included that because that's like a duh. I know. But are we ever gonna be able to?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But like yeah, find support. I think it's telling people like, hey, I need help, or hey, I'm kind of burnt out, and stuff like that. But for me, it's it's kind of like what you just experienced with your brother. It it's it's it's man, just spending three days away. And I don't want to say do nothing, but just have relaxing, intentional time with people in your life. It's so good for the soul.
SPEAKER_01It's it's also a benefit when they know that that's what you're doing. Yeah. Because I've had to have that conversation with my brother too. And he's like, what do you want to? Are you are you getting what you want out of this trip? I'm like, I'm here. Yeah, and that's what I wanted, and that's what I needed. And it's uh like I call it a perspective trip.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Yeah. I I've learned, you know, growing up, you'd always hear adults say you want a vacation from a vacation. Yeah. And I've I've experienced that, right? But I think some like for me, I want to I I have set aside times of the year where I'm on vacation and it's truly a vacation. Yeah, it's doing nothing. And so um, yeah, it that's that's definitely has helped me.
SPEAKER_01I'm wondering what else can we do though? What what else can we what are some other ways to tackle stress and recognize because we've kind of transitioned from calling it burnout to just stress because I think that's what our biggest triggers of burnout are, yeah is self-induced stress.
SPEAKER_00I I'm gonna go back to the things you can't control and the things you can't control. So I'll just use like Christmas and Easter from my perspective. Holy Week is a crazy week here at the church, and so I can't control that. And so I might have a I you know, I so you gotta kind of know that ahead of time. So I think this is when especially I think every job has busy seasons. I think you mentioned like budget season for you, and obviously teacher. I mean, I think every occupation has its crazy busy seasons. I think we I think trying to be as proactive as you can, knowing when your busy season's coming. So obviously I know when Christmas is coming, I know when holy week and Easter is coming. So how can I be proactive ahead of that? Because I I'm gonna say a very bold statement. I think sometimes some I think some burnout is almost unavoidable or a temporary burnout, and I'm using that as holy week, I guess. And so, how can I be proactive when I know this busy season's coming? So I think you know, almost being proactive before that season hits.
SPEAKER_01You can almost inoculate yourself to the burnout that you know that you're it's unavoidable.
SPEAKER_00You know that wave is coming, and so how how can you brace yourself? How can you prepare for that? Both you know, organization-wise, administrative wise, emotionally, physically. So it's it's it's all that, right? I think no, and then also I don't want to say you have to accept it, but you have to accept the again. I'm using Holy Week as my point of reference here. You kind of have to accept that it's gonna be a long week. It's gonna be physically taxing, emotionally, and there is a light at the end of that tunnel. There is, absolutely, and it's not a train. And again, that's not always true for every burnout, but I think sometimes we all go through these seasons where it's like, yeah, I think I think sometimes we just need to be better at being proactive a little bit, uh, especially when we know a big wave is coming. Like, because the last thing you want is not be proactive and you're caught off guard, and that just adds to it. Um, that adds to the the wave that's already big already.
SPEAKER_01And so do you think this just made me think of this? Do you think that the whole seasonal depression thing is actually seasonal burnout?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_01Because every and everybody's is gonna be different. Yeah, some people experience it in the winter, some people in the spring and fall, summer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I do. I I I I think there's again, that's not the case for everything, but I I I I I think so. Um that's why I I'll go on record here. If I still unified um it that adds to my burnout, is right when my family's on spring break and they're home and I can't be with my family. That adds to it too, a little bit. And so again, it's it's things out of side of your control, and you try to help mitigate that as much as you can. But then there's you know, you mentioned grief. You know, that's not really in here, but there's definitely you can get burnout from a passing of a loved one and and and grief and and stuff like that. And so it's amazing how weaking feelings can lead to being burnt out. Like grief can lead to being burnt out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, because that's just and that's something you can't prepare for, right? Absolutely. That those that those are the events that pop up, and you you you can prepare for everything else, and you can be right on the cusp, and you're like, okay, I know this is gonna be a special time. I'm prepared for it. I know there's a moment at the end of this where I'm gonna be able to relax again and breathe, and then you get hit with something else that's completely out of the left field, and it puts you over the edge.
SPEAKER_00That's where I'll credit my therapist I had in Minnesota. It immediately should always just ask, you know, I think I've said this already quite a few times on this podcast, and I apologize. But the very first thing she always told me when I was confronted with anything is what can you control and what can't you control? Because once you kind of answer those questions, I think it makes it easier on your path moving forward. Yeah. That you you know kind of how to handle it and and what you can like once you realize what you can control, it kind of gives you a path on on what to do. To if you can't control it, then there's almost like this acceptance and just kind of like preparing yourself too. So um a lot of times we want to control everything, and I'm with there with people. So um yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, this has been a long one. Hopefully, it all got recorded again in another thing. I have no idea. An another thing that is out of our control.
SPEAKER_00The red light has been on. Yeah. And I'm gonna right after this, I'm gonna take this little chip, which again, this chip is the size of a fingernail. Yeah, a dime, and somehow it has this whole recording on it. This is where technology just kind of blows me away, and this is also where I don't trust it.
SPEAKER_01I trust a healthy untrust.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I see your trust. Your mic is on, my mic is on, the recording is on. So I guess we'll end it. Yeah, before I do my closing here, I will just say uh thank you for listening, and we have no idea how the quality will be. I'll I'll try my hardest after this to make sure it's decent. But yeah, thank you so much for tuning in today. We hope this conversation gave you something new to think about, whether it's an idea, a story, or just a fresh perspective on everyday life. Don't forget to subscribe so you won't miss future episodes. And hey, share this podcast with friends or family who might enjoy it too. We love hearing from our listeners, so connect with us online and let us know what topics you'd like us to explore. Until next time, keep asking questions, stay curious, and enjoy the little moments that make life meaningful. Hope you all have a wonderful day and goodbye here from the Grace Period podcast.