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Pedal Pod
EP:6 Women's Takeover Day!
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This episode is all about Women’s Takeover Day in the Forest of Dean. We’re joined by Forestry England and Ordnance Survey to chat about getting more women out into the outdoors and making it a more welcoming space for everyone.
We talk about why events like this matter, how people can get involved, and how tools like OS Maps can help you explore with a bit more confidence.
A good one if you’re into the outdoors or just thinking about getting started.
Okay, so welcome to episode eight of the pedal pod with me, Gareth.
SPEAKER_01And me, Rebecca. And today we've got two guests. We're spoiling you, I know. We have got Kate from Forestry England.
SPEAKER_04And we've got Laura from OS Maps. So welcome, guys.
SPEAKER_01Hi guys. Hi. So before we get into why you're here, can you just give us a little bit of backstory, first of all, you, Kate, about what your role is with Forestry England and what a typical day looks like for you?
SPEAKER_00So days are quite varied, but on the whole, um I'm the site ranger here, so out doing like all the safety inspections on the trails, um, just kind of looking after all the day-to-day stuff, looking after the people when they fall off, which is always unfortunate, but it happens. Um, and just kind of yeah, generally keeping the place safe and running.
SPEAKER_01How did you become a Forestry England ranger?
SPEAKER_00Um slightly by chance. Um worked at a different Forestry England site and then the job came up and thankfully had enough experience to get to come and work in the place that I've loved for a long time.
SPEAKER_04Fantastic. And Laura, what about yourself? Because you have not always worked for iSMAPs, have you?
SPEAKER_02So No, I've had a bit of a kind of varied career. Uh, my probably unknown fact that was my first job out of university is that I was the private secretary to the Earl and Countess of Carnarvon at Highclair Castle, which is actually Downton Abbey. So I started to see. So you started at Downton Abbey. Started off at Downton Abbey, serving the Queen breakfast in bed.
SPEAKER_03Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, my career's always been about people and relationships. So I kind of looked after the family there, then went into charity kind of sector for about 10 years. Uh, and then I found that I really liked riding bikes. At the time it was skinny road tyres, but we won't. Well, we won't have tyres. Yeah, um, and that kind of led me into a kind of career change into partnerships, which is what I do now. So I worked in the cycling industry for a while in cycling media, uh, and then moved over into Ordnance Survey, who owned OS Maps, the app, um, looking after partnerships there.
SPEAKER_04Fantastic. And so we're here today to talk about a very special event which is in its uh second year, isn't it? So um the women's takeover day at um uh, well, obviously the Forest Hadine Cycle Centre, you know, where we are sat today. So uh um, so Kate, tell us a little bit about the event. How did it first come around?
SPEAKER_00Um it all basically started uh following a internal um Forestry England kind of cycle conference. So kind of everyone involved in cycling across the country got together. Um and we had a fantastic um talk by Fiona Spotswood from the FIAS team in Bristol University, and um just kind of really looking at their framework and the work that they've done sort of really brought all that to the forefront and started us thinking about well what can we what can we do at the cycle centre, you know, as Forestry England to kind of encourage more women out on bikes. Um and then that combined with a bit of kind of you know workshopping ideas with people, um got the local women steering group with a bunch of local riders, some here today, um, who kind of help us build those ideas and those sort of plans for the day, and yeah, that's kind of really how it all started.
SPEAKER_04And so what's kind of like going back to kind of the the aim of the event, and I'm assuming the aim is to get more women into into mountain biking. Um so but what was kind of like the driver for that? Because you talked about obviously Fiona's done a lot of work, hasn't she, around um uh participation in cycling and some of the barriers to entry and stuff. So kind of what was almost that catalyst to be able to start that first event?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, really, really just that want from all of us. And I'm really pleased to say that my two male colleagues at the time were just as keen as I was about having more women here on bikes and just kind of yeah, sharing something that we're all really passionate about, and you know, you guys do. Um we just want more people to come and enjoy that. And I think, like you say, because of various kind of barriers and things that maybe are a bit more difficult for women at times, then that was that was really was like that driver behind it, and the thought of like, well, how do we encourage those people out, those people who are too nervous, who maybe don't feel like they've got the time, don't feel like they can give themselves that little luxury of you know getting to do something that they love for themselves. Um, so it really was just um yeah, trying to trying to find some way of making that happen and kind of putting on a fun event, a day where people can just kind of come and see that the place is full of women. There are other women out there, so if it was your first time here, you'd turn up for once and be like, I can see loads of women rather than being kind of confronted by the maybe slightly more usual wall of guys that you might find.
SPEAKER_04So you know and and Laura, what was the drive from OS Maps to get involved this year?
SPEAKER_02Um, so OS Maps is owned by Ordnance Survey, and you know, for us as a product, OS Maps is a mapping and navigation app, but it's all about opening up the outdoors. Um, and our kind of main vision within Ordnance Survey in the kind of leisure space, so our paper maps and OS Maps is to get more people outside more often in a way that they want to. Um, you know, we're all quite familiar with people being up on a hill trying to fold a paper map, D of V and hiking and walking, but actually anything that happens off grid is really like our heartland. And OS Maps, we really wanted to kind of show and support that kind of driver of getting more people into the outdoors in different ways. Um, across our team in the last year or so, we've had lots of different initiatives. So um we've just launched a women's hub on theosmaps.com as well, full of loads of like tips, advice, inspiration around kind of, as Kate said, some of the barriers that women do find in getting into the outdoors. Um, and recently we've just sponsored the epic legend that is Tracy Mosley and her recent uh film she's done, which is all about mountain biking as family exploration and adventure. So that's this kind of seemed like a brilliant next step for us in kind of you know carrying on that momentum around the outdoors, women stepping more into that kind of bike space and encouraging kind of people just to get out and yeah, try it in different ways.
SPEAKER_04And is this something that you see across the outdoor sector? Yeah, because obviously OS Maps works across a lot of different um areas, doesn't it? Um, or is this something a challenge that is specific to cycling?
SPEAKER_02I think in my experience in the outdoors, it is women do face barriers in you know, there's research everywhere around sport, participation, physical exercise, the outdoors, you know, and mountain biking. And Kate mentioned Fee Spotswood. I think she's got probably a lot to answer for in all of our organisations. Um for those of you who don't know, Fee is an associate professor at the University of Bristol Business School. Um, but her project, Project Fiat, which is fostering inclusion in action sport. I hope I get all these right. Um I'm glad you said that wrong. FIAS. Um FIAS, yeah. It's like it's an amazing research program that has actually taken stuff that I think a lot of us as people in the outdoors and women in the outdoors probably knew, probably experienced, probably have felt, but like she's put a framework and an understanding behind it. So she's her research programs have looked at you know the barriers that women face in getting back out after having children. They've looked at marketing in the mountain biking sector, she's kind of put frameworks in around you know, uh tool kits for new mountain biking, marketing programs and things. It's just amazing. Um, but yeah, I do think sadly it is it isn't limited to mountain biking. I think it possibly is slightly worse in these slightly more typically adrenaline-fueled sports.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think there's a lot to be said around how we as a wider industry, both within the bike sector and the outdoor sector, talk about these sports. You know, these shreddits online and it all being gnar and jumps, and I that's not how we show up on bikes, as that's not everybody.
SPEAKER_04We all don't road like that.
SPEAKER_02What was that was your go-to start, isn't it, Garrett?
SPEAKER_04No, it isn't, not at all. You you touched on something there we we wanted to ask around um for both of you, really, is is how did your personal journeys into mountain biking start? So uh Laura, do you want to start into the what was your personal journey into and so you talked about some of the barriers women face and stuff? Um, what how was your journey shaped into you talked starting on the the skinny side of it with on the uh the we won't say the road started?
SPEAKER_03The road, the dirty road.
SPEAKER_04Um then you came onto something far cooler, obviously.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, I basically worked my way up in terms of muddiness. So I actually started really muddy. I started as a rugby player, so I'm actually a failed, injured rugby player. Um, and in my injury kind of rehab in that, I was told to get on a bike, low impact, you know, rehab from knee injuries, so it was on the road at the time, then took up cycle cross, which is an even madder out there sport of riding road bikes off-road in the winter. Ridiculous. Um, and actually, my journey into mountain biking kind of came in two ways. Professionally, I'd just moved into the cycling industry, worked for the company that owned Cycling Weekly and MBR magazine at the time. Um, Danny Milner, the editor of MBR, threw me on a bike here actually, uh, as part of an event we were organising. I fell off following Ian down a trail, actually, for like my first time ever. Yeah. Mortified. Um, and then I also then met my partner and he took me on a date mountain biking at Swinley Forest. Um, I think for a lot of women it was like kept him. Kept him. Um, I think a lot of women do kind of fall into mountain biking quite often in that way. You'll hear people saying, Oh, like a partner took me out, or a group of guys took me out, or my husband made me ride. Um, I think quite a lot of cus have kind of organically been pulled into the sport. I don't know many women yet. I mean, it's definitely different, a younger generation, who kind of woke up and went, yeah, I want to be a female mountain biker. Yeah. Um, yeah, and now just ride as much as I can whenever I can.
SPEAKER_04Brilliant. Well, Kate, come on, take us through your journey into the sport.
SPEAKER_00Um, I guess I always grew up in like a relatively sort of outdoorsy family, and then um, you know, so always kind of rode bikes as a kid on family holidays. We'd rent bikes and stuff like that, but not mountain biking, nothing like here. Um, and then it wasn't wasn't really until I was in my twenties. Uh, was in holiday, on holiday in the lake district, went to Grysdale and rented like a little hardtail and took it out around part of the North Face Trail, which I think at that point was predominantly sort of forest road, so it really wasn't anything extreme, and just loved it. I just thought this is this is brilliant. I need to do more of this, and yeah, kind of you know, fast forward to eight months later, I'd gone straight like from having a really cheap hardtail that I thought, this £300, why would anyone spend any more on a bike? This is amazing. So the eight months later, going, I need a full suspension mountain bike, I have to, I have to just do this, and you know, now I now I don't want to talk about how much money I've spent on bikes, but and it's been you know, I've been riding for far too long and I'm nowhere near as good as I probably should be at this point, but yeah, so kind of the same, really. It's it's a bug, it bites you, and then that's it, you're just hooked, aren't you?
SPEAKER_03So you just want to keep on riding.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but the money bit is a challenge. Like women are notoriously bad at spending money on themselves and spending money on their own free time and their own experiences. And sorry, Gareth, some of the mountain bikes are quite expensive nowadays. Um not the great value for money, but great value for money and on sale. Great. Um, but it is, I think that is a big barrier. Like women don't want to take that massive leap and step financially, and actually, we forget that you can come somewhere like the here and just hire a bike like Kate did for half a day.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, there's often a more cost-effective way of doing it if you're, you know, said once a month or you know, every couple of months, then obviously rather than having your, you know, you might have your road bike at home and uh and then and then be able to come and hire a mountain bike, or you know, again, you might be in another sports, and then it's it's again a more cost-effective way, depending where you live, because we're not all lucky to live in the forest of Dean, are we?
SPEAKER_02So yeah, and you know, from my side as then you know, working for the National Mapping Agency of Great Britain, not everyone has these hills, not everyone has these forests, but I also think there's this massive misconception that mountain biking is downhill and is extreme. And for me, and you know, my role within OS Maps, it's so important that people realise that and riding a bike off-road is mountain biking. Yeah, that can be on a canal path, that can be on a you know, cycle track, we've got amazing national cycle networks, we've got forestry sites, like we don't need to make it extreme the whole time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we'll come back to that kind of perception and marketing piece because I think everyone in the industry is guilty of doing it. I was just watching just before we came in here, the new uh launch for a certain bike brand, and it was exactly what he said, you know, shredding jumps, uh blowing some corners out.
SPEAKER_02A bloke, white, uh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Actually, one of the videos last week was was one of the female riders, but it was again doing exactly the same jumps, shredding corners and blowing out stuff, and you were like, hey, look, there's a quality, you know, we can do it too, but it's not the you know the perception and it's not the everyday experience that everyone has riding their bikes, do they? No.
SPEAKER_01I think that's why the women's takeover day is important though, because you're going to be telling people actually it's okay to just ride on fire roads, and it's okay to turn up in leggings and a t-shirt and a pair of trainers. Because these are like part of the barriers as well that women face.
SPEAKER_02And it's okay that your ride can be for 5k and your coffee can be for five hours. Like, you know, and they serve really good coffee. Really good coffee, yeah. For sure. But you're right, like what we wear, what we have in terms of kit, you know, the time we give ourselves as women, they can all be like challenges that stop people kind of trying. And I I personally and professionally don't want that to be a thing for the future.
SPEAKER_04Can I ask you? Because we've never really delved into this, Rebecca. What was your experience? Because again, you know, you you're obviously a mountain biker and your kids are now into mountain biking and stuff as well. So talk a little bit about your journey.
SPEAKER_01It's all Tot's fault. That's been so. So I talked to my husband, and uh, when we were dating, he said, let's go on the family cycle trail. And I went a good date. Okay, yeah, I had a really good day. And I um to be honest, I hated him a little bit at the end because my bum hurt and I was in loads of pain doing the family cycle trail. And I was like, this was awful. And the next weekend he went, Do you want to ride a bike again? I went, Yeah, let's go. And it just progressed from there. Um, and then we've managed to get both our daughters into it at varying levels based on their ages. And now I've got an 11-year-old who can ride trails better than me. Yeah, it's wild, which is just scary because uh she's like, you know, chase me down the trail mum and let's go down uh you know, elephant man, and I'm like, all right, and she's she's gone. Um, but yeah, that's how I got on to it. It's actually like you were saying through a man introducing me to the sport. Yeah. Uh but now I think I ride more than him.
SPEAKER_04But Rebecca, you touched on one something I wanted to build on there, which was about obviously getting young people and girls into the sport early on. So, you know, Kate Law, how important do you think it is to be able to introduce, you know, more young riders into the sport, whether male or female, um, and you know, how can we encourage that a little bit more?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think it's it's hugely important, isn't it? I mean, uh any young person it's just you know, if you you take up a sport, it builds your confidence, doesn't it? It builds that kind of picture of yourself and your abilities and what you what you're capable of, you know, as a person. And I think the younger that you can give that to somebody, the better. Because I think, you know, there's probably lots of women out there who didn't uh get that kind of experience because it just it just wasn't the norm, like when we were younger. Um, you weren't sort of really told that actually you can go out and do those things, you know. You can well you can do what the guys are doing, you know. And I think it's gonna be amazing in like, you know, as these new younger generations come along who've kind of had that from sort of day one, that like you're just as good, you're just as worthy, you're just as capable. And like, how how would that ever be a negative for anybody?
SPEAKER_04Because one of the things is interesting we've seen with little fodders with the kids club is that early on in particular, actually, the participation isn't far above 50-50. But obviously, as you go up through the age groups, that definitely changes and it definitely skews as they you'll have a hardcore of of girls that stick with it and carry on doing it, but obviously the dropout rate seems to be, and this is just again from my experience with with the club over the last 10 years, but the dropout rate seems to be higher. Is that something kind of like you guys have seen as well in terms of that and and what what you know what causes that and how can we, I suppose, combat that a little bit?
SPEAKER_02I think if you look at some of this uh great research in like Sport England and This Girl Can in particular, they've got some amazing research about that participation drop-off. And I think you're right, I'm probably going to quote the ages wrong, but I think it's that kind of 12 to 14 window, yeah, is an age where you see teenage girls really disappearing, not just from you know mountain biking, but sport and physical activity in general. Um, and they've done lots of things looking at again those kind of the challenges they face around you know, friendship groups, body image, you know, all of that comes into play, and it is a shame. I'm still involved in rugby as well as a sport, and I coach teenage girls, and they they they deal with so many other things in their participation of sport than just turning up and throwing a rugby ball around. Um, and it is amazing watching, you know, the likes of your little one, my little one, she's two and a half, nicknamed Ferrell Beryl. She's never not known being in the outdoors. Yeah, um, you know, her first outing at day six was to appear to this cafe. Dan from Forestry, I think, was one of the first people outside of the family to actually meet her. Um, and she now thinks she owns the place. Actually, no, sorry, Gareth, she thinks Sally owns the place. Um and she, like you say, she will grow up like the same as Rena, like understanding that this is a place she can be in the outdoors, understanding that she can ride a bike. Some girls will never get that chance. Um, and then some girls go into it, experience things, and drop off. And I just think that teenage age is so critical to lend that support. Even if they do exit a sport, the love of the outdoors at some point, hopefully it will come back as well. Hopefully, when they get older, um, you know, they might reappear, be that on a hike, be that on a bike, you know, be that swimming somewhere, be that in the gym. But I think it's the earlier, as you said, okay, the earlier we can introduce children to just the great stuff that pushing yourself, succeeding, failing, failing on a bike, great, uh, brings the better. And old Bob's the green trail here is I I can't tell you how many laps we have done. You're probably the same. So many laps.
SPEAKER_01So many laps on old Bob. I think I could probably do it with my eyes closed now. Yeah, which I'm not actually gonna do.
SPEAKER_04No, we're gonna challenge I can see this is gonna be the Rebecca challenge where on a future podcast we'll do it all live on YouTube and you can do it blindfolding.
SPEAKER_01So both my eldest and Todd have crashed on old Bob. They both went down like the double black and then went on to assessment. And I think it's just because they like just went, oh, this is a green, and then it went wrong. But if I do that, I will crash and they'll never let me live it down.
SPEAKER_02Watching like the girls razzing round on their balance bikes, you know, floss is just learning to get up the ARP and then like tackling the downs. But the pump track, I mean, I stood there one day when I didn't have anything else to do and just let her ride the pump track here, and she rode it 63 times. We had to come in for some chips and hot chocolate and go back out, but she just can't get enough of it. And watching her when we ride to nursery on the bike, she's on the ride shotgun, going through the forestry trails up the hill, just watching the birds, watching the trees coming out. You know, it's just yeah, it's incredible to see them experiencing the forest like we have here.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think there's a couple of things to unpick there, but I think the first one I I picked up on is um you're talking about kind of friendship groups within within mountain biking. Um, and I so the experience was I was actually thinking back to again the to the fodders where you know the girls that have come all the way through it, um like Frankie, like Bella, like Cora, they had a really strong friendship group in there as well. So actually it's that support of other like-minded individuals. Um and and and I guess you know, when we start to talk about the Women's Day, is is I'm guessing that's part of the aim of it in terms of creating more friendships and and links to be able to make it more accessible.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you know, like you were saying, lots of women have come to the sport through male friends or whatever. And that's a big part of the day, is kind of just creating that massive kind of networking event so that if you don't know any other women that ride, you can turn up on a day and there's just hundreds of them. So, you know, within Those hundreds of people, you're probably gonna find a few that are gonna be kind of like-minded or you're gonna get on with and gel with on the day. And that, like from last year, we had feedback after the event, and there were several people who were like, I've met people, we've already arranged a ride next weekend, you know, and like that is a hundred percent what it's about. It's it's about bringing all those people together in a space so they can actually find each other without having to like trawl the internet to find some random social group, or yeah, you know, like, oh, I've got a friend of a friend who maybe knows somebody. It's just like everyone's just there in one space. And it was the same, like, there was a lot of young girls and women who came last year as well. And I kind of hope for a game, like this second year we're doing it, it'll grow, and there'll be more of those young people who are another year older, and maybe you know, it's been a year since they've seen each other, but maybe they remember each other from last time and it just starts growing those friendships, and then maybe we will kind of start seeing those groups of teenage girls riding. Like we, you know, we have I don't know how many boys like groups of boys riding around on a weekend, and they're in, you know, they're in their little, they're in their little sort of group of guys having the little guys riding rounds. They're having their have having the best day of their lives, and it would just be amazing to get to a point where you come down here on a weekend and you're like, oh, there's a bunch of teenage girls going out riding together, and they're just having a great day. Like that's what it's for.
SPEAKER_01To say that uh there was an event I went to with my eldest when she was, I think it was just before COVID, and it was a girls-only event aimed at getting young girls into riding, and she met another little girl there that just clicked. But this little girl lived in Essex, and you know what? They kept in contact the whole time through parents, because that's what parents do, isn't it? And then they've actually moved here because they like mountain biking so much. Wow. So now those friends that that friendship has just sealed, um, and they're out riding all the time together, but that's years and years on they've kept that friendship going, being really young as well. And this is what I'm hoping like takeover day will do is it's not just over the next few weeks, it's actually years later. Hopefully, there's people, there's women, there's girls coming together going, Oh yeah, do you remember when we met at that event?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and if some of the girls come and you know do one of the coaching sessions and it's the likes of Katie or a female coaching them, and then then they leave and think, actually, not only can I do this, but maybe I can make a career out of this. You know, like for every girl that is led by a female trail leader, it's it's not just showing them it's physical activity, it's showing them it's so much more, and I think that's like awesome. And coming back to Fee again, Fee Sportsford from Bristol, she talks about women-only spaces and the need for them. And I'm sure, I'm sure there'll be some blokes who have some thought about you know, why do we need a women-only takeover? You don't get a men's-only takeover day, do you? It's like, yes, we do, it's nearly every day. Um but like I think it comes back to that bit. I'm gonna steal what Fee said actually at an OS Maps day down in the office at Ordnance Survey last week, which was that women don't come and don't start in the same place. And when they come together, they don't play by the same rules. And when you create a women's only space, they actually rewrite the rules and they rewrite how they want to show up and they rewrite how they want to participate in that sport. And you can't do that if you're in a space where it is so heavily male-dominated and there are so many rules in you know, in brackets. Um, so I think days like you know, Kate and the team are putting on with the women's day is so important to give those women that chance to kind of create a space that works for them and how they want to show up.
SPEAKER_04And one of the other points that we've just talked about there as well, and uh was around actually the trail network. Um because you kind of both kind of touched on around how important, for example, Old Bob's has been as as part of that in terms of your personal experiences. So how kind of important is is having that progressive trail network into I suppose you know providing an inclusive environment and an environment where more people want to access the sport.
SPEAKER_00I think it just it does act as that gateway, like it's a bit of a safety net. If you can, you know, I don't personally have young children, but I can imagine that if you do going somewhere where there's signs you can follow, there's a map, there's information that you can kind of understand what you're heading into before you head out, like it it's just giving you that kind of safety net, isn't it? And I think it then just gives you those stepping stones to get further and further away from that safety net, yeah, and then into your real world of like maybe I'm gonna get a map and I'm gonna learn how to read it, and then I'm gonna really go on an adventure and like really get away from civilization. So basically you're the gateway drug to the outdoors. That is it, but I think and and that's and that's why like having the having the trails and having the kind of spread of like what's on offer here works because you can come on a day where you know maybe you've you are like a real mixed kind of level group that you've come to ride with, whether that's family or friends or whatever it is, so you can all go and enjoy something like old Bob's together. It doesn't matter how long you've been riding. I defy anyone to ride around that trail and not have a smile on their face at the end of it because it's great fun. Um, but you know, you can also then kind of split your group up and you can do little different things, and people can try little bits of something without committing to I've just decided I'm gonna go and do a red trail for the first time in my life, and that's my whole day. And if it goes wrong, that's the day over. Like it's you you've got that opportunity to kind of, well, I can just dip my toe in and then decide maybe not today and try again another day, and that's cool, that's what it's about. That is that's that progression, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess that's where it's coming from, in terms of sometimes, like you said, the image of mountain biking can be seen as, as you said, all nah. And actually, you know, it's it's not necessarily that in terms of I think that's where old Bob's has potentially opened some doors in terms of going, it's fun, it's flowy, it's pumped, it's you know, everyone can ride it. You know, you don't need to be a mountain biker to be able to uh ride it and have fun on it. Um, and for me, you know, that accessibility-wise, I think it's really opened up the the other trail network off the back of the fact that you oh I've done that, what's next?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, and you've seen it change in you know, just the people down here day to day. We moved here six years ago because of the trail network here, and you know, having driven up to this car park many, many weekends and asking why we were doing that, but it definitely shifted here, and I think we're so lucky and Ford to have this like amazing inclusive space. You know, you do go to so many other places and you don't see as such diversity in bikes and age and gender. Um, but yeah, I think especially since old Bob's has opened, you know, seeing families like seeing more women just kicking around in the calf and out on the trails has just been amazing. And I think it is a huge confidence builder. And I think confidence, particularly for women, is another massive barrier to being on a bike or in the outdoors. I think we are our own worst enemy. I certainly am. I can't do that. I can't do that, I can't possibly do that. I'll never be able to do that. Like, oh my god, not today. Um, and I think you know, same with getting outside just generally, if you haven't got the confidence to do it, you're not gonna do it or you're gonna have a horrible time. And actually, somewhere like a forestry site or somewhere like here where you do have that infrastructure helps build that confidence. And then, as Kate said, uh, if you want to go further afield and go off into the you know the wilds, then products like ours and OS Maps are there to help you kind of build that and go further again and hopefully with confidence in the outdoors as well. So, yeah, I think these spaces are just a gateway job to the future drivers.
SPEAKER_04And you know, we talked obviously quite a bit about the barriers to entry for sort of women, and you've touched on some of the fees work around that. So, what are kind of like the key ones that that women face in terms of access and mountain biking? Um, and how do you know does the the women's day help to be able to uh suppose overcome some of those?
SPEAKER_02Sorry, I think you go I mean for me personally as a mum, like as and as someone who would come to the Women's Day even if I wasn't working it and supporting it through my job, but like having a set date and a set time to set aside in the calendar as mine and show up for me and my interests is so important. Um, I think time and I I know some of Fee's other research around kind of coming back after having children has been around that kind of permission around time. You know, there is a lot on everyone's list, whether you've got kids, whether you haven't, actually just carving out that space to do something for you. So I think a set date in the diary, the 13th of June. Be here, yeah, make it your day, like book it in the calendar and get here. It's free.
SPEAKER_00It is free, yeah. Just come and join in. Yeah, um, yeah, I think yeah, I mean, there are we could probably talk for hours just on all the reasons that people can't get out of the house and like you say, give themselves the time and the space to do it. But um I think what whatever those barriers are, the nice thing about running the event here is it kind of do kind of doesn't really matter. Like you don't even need a bike to come and join in, you know. You guys have bike hire on site, so you don't even need a bike, so that's that's a barrier gone, you know. Which for a lot of people, like you say, when it comes to the money side of things, that's a huge barrier, but it still doesn't exclude you from coming and giving it a go because you can do it in a cheaper way, you don't have to make that commitment, you can come and give, like just try it out, see how it is, and then you know, you have got the safety net of being here. You don't necessarily need to think about, well, where am I going? You know, because when you get here, there's roots, you can just follow them. And again, like you say, it just it ultimately all comes back to that confidence, whatever that area of confidence that you're lacking. Hopefully, with the women's day, you can kind of turn up and feel like you fit in and feel like you can be part of it and not feel like you're on the outside, like you didn't turn up in the right outfit, like you were saying, you know. It's it is it's down to that stuff, even you know, you turn up and you're just like, Oh gosh, I don't I don't have a proper mountain bike jersey or something. It's like it doesn't matter. There'll be half the people be here in just their regular t-shirts, you know. So it's it's all of those things and and more. And yeah, it's just uh a very small, like for me, it feels like it's kind of a small thing that we're doing by doing this event to just try and break some of those down for people, and like you say, give them that point in the calendar, give them that excuse to go, that's my day, and I'm gonna do that for me, and just be able to come and soak it up.
SPEAKER_02And and even if we wanted to come do is get a coffee and cake and observe, like, come lurk. We like lurking is welcome. We'll be having some stuff at the OpenStack. We'll be having some stuff at the OS Maps tent that isn't about bikes, just about sharing experiences in the outdoors. If people don't feel confident enough yet to get on a bike but are just curious about what all of this is about, like come down and just have a chat with us, sit in the tent, listen to some stories, you know, watch what's going on, and maybe the weekend after, when it's a bit quieter, you might want to because it will be noisy. There will be lots of giggling. Like my takeaway from women's specific spaces and women's mountain biking stuff is the joy and the noise of like giggling and cackling and like stories, and you know, you you go for a ride with somebody girl you've never met before, and within five minutes it's basically a therapy session, and you're like, You've shared your backstory, you've shared your woes, you know, boyfriend travels are on the table, like everything is just fair game, and it is just it's such a leveller. Um, so yeah, like just come with an open mind, you know, come and have a have a nose and see if this might be a space that you can find your place.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So take us about what kind of things will they expect on the 13th of June? What kind of things will be happening to be able to uh I suppose uh that when we'll be able to come and experience?
SPEAKER_00Um so there's gonna be a bunch of kind of hosted rides, so local riders who know the place pretty well, be various different routes, um rides that you can join in on, and there's gonna be some subsidised coaching sessions as well. So Forestry England have kind of put some money behind that, um, which means they'll maybe be about a sort of half price. So again, hopefully getting rid of one of those other barriers. So yeah, if you want a bit of actual coaching and mountain biking, then that's a good opportunity for that. Um got some great stuff from OS, which I'm really excited about having you guys on board this year.
SPEAKER_02It's gonna be gonna try and put a bit more kind of uh yeah, just supporting stuff on down here at the centre. So we're gonna have a few kind of coffee chats in our tent. Um, as I say, there'll be women who enjoy their time in the outdoors, so they won't necessarily all be mountain bikers, they'll just be talking about their kind of lived experiences in the outdoors and sharing some of that, like what makes them happy and their um kind of yeah uh experiences there. We'll have some walks going on, so even if you don't want to get on a bike but just want to come down and be active, or maybe you want to come with a daughter or a partner or you know, whatever, and head out, we'll have some of that as well. Um, and some routes that you can follow on your own if you don't feel quite up to heading out in a group in one of the kind of group sessions. Um hopefully just a few things I'm gonna try and end the evening with some films and show our new film that we sponsored with Tracy. It's a very good watch, actually. It is a very good watch. Yeah, it's yeah.
SPEAKER_01You're a parent looking for inspiration. I think it's a must-watch, to be honest.
SPEAKER_02Seven stains in seven days. There you go, that's the plot.
SPEAKER_04That's hardcore, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is, but watch watch the video, Gareth, because she she purposely chunks up the Seven Stain centres, the Seven Stain mountain biking centres in South Scotland. She chunks them up in the right way for her and her family.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So it's a really, really great watch about how like you can make this sport as big or as little as you want it to be. And some days she leaves Toby, you know, in in the centres at the Seven Stain centres and heads off on her own. Sometimes they cut roots short, sometimes they just head to certain places. But yeah, the reason we wanted to support it is OS Maps, is it really shows that you can, you know, every adventure doesn't have to be a massive adventure. Micro adventures, massive adventures, they're all great adventures. So yeah.
SPEAKER_04It's all about getting more people on out on bikes at the end of the day. Well, and um, we were talking about um Kate the the outcomes from this event from Forestry England is where did you know how do you see this kind of I suppose building and and creating that more kind of accessible out uh you know community of uh riders?
SPEAKER_00Again, I think it's just about building that community in the first place because uh that that's kind of one of the things that's come out of the women's steering group is kind of how much uh there is that want for that community building to happen and it kind of has to start somewhere. So this doing the women's takeover day was kind of hopefully that catalyst, really, to those those things kind of slowly building and slowly gaining a bit of traction. And we have seen things kind of change already since last year. Like we've got the um She Rides group who do their like hosted rides every month and things like that. So just like bringing new people to the site um and starting to build those little groups because that's that's really how uh places like this work. It it is it is for the community, it is built by the community. Like the place literally wouldn't exist without the people that uh lived here and started building things 30 odd years ago. So it you know, uh it's it's just yeah, providing that space and then hopefully kind of just supporting uh the community to grow as it like that's our role as forestry England. Like we can't kind of force it, we can't um you know, we're not here to do that, but we are but we are in the perfect position to support that happening and giving people the space and the option to come and kind of try new things and just be in the forest and have those experiences. That's that's kind of the goal for Forestry England is to just kind of you know, well, personally as well for myself. I think you know, I'd I'd love the day when I turn up here and it is like a completely kind of 50-50. There's as many women as there are men like in chilling out around the cafe on the trails, wherever it is. Like that that's my dream, that's my personal goal. If I've got any chance of influencing it, I will. So um yeah, I think that's that's that's what it is for me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I mean, do we have kind of like stats on what that looks like at the moment in terms of the women to male participation? Because obviously I've seen variance of stats from sometimes down as low as five percent, depending on the venue, um, up to here, roundabout. I think it's like 25%, 27%.
SPEAKER_00There's a there's always been like a really good core sort of bunch of women riding in the forest. I think it's just it's the place that it is, and like obviously with groups like the Dames and stuff like that over the years, there's the women are there. Yeah, they're still not in as many numbers as the guys, but they are there, and like we've done forestry England surveys over the years, and I was initially working on it last week, um, and kind of seeing how that shift um just in the kind of respondents to our surveys, it's still not 50-50, it's still predominantly male, but we have literally gone from about sort of 20% of women responding to those surveys round to about 35-40 percent. And so it's been like that there is a shift, there is changes happening, and like you know, you said as well, like you can just see it in the site, you can see the difference in the people who are coming here and visiting. Like when I I started here like seven years ago, and you know, it it's my job to be here and be out on the site with people, and I can't tell you how intimidated I felt driving in in my forestry van up through that car park in the sea of guys in their full face helmets and all their downhill kit, and I thought I've got to be here and deal with this, you know. Like I kind of don't have a choice right now, but actually I feel really out of place and really uncomfortable. So then if you put, you know, you kind of put that into well, if that's how I feel as somebody who works here whose job it is, like, how does that feel as a member of the public? And what's been so lovely is over my time working here is kind of seeing that shift and seeing how, like you say, that change and kind of like there's more families, there are more women here, there are more groups of people, kind of mixed groups riding together, the age range of people. I mean, e-bikes have really changed the game on that front, I think, as well. Definitely a lot more people riding a lot longer than maybe they would have done in the past. So, like there's there's been like lots of shifts in that kind of yeah, the types of people that are coming to the site, and and the and the women are definitely a huge chunk of that. And yeah, I think you do you can you can see it and you can feel it. It does feel different.
SPEAKER_02And that's good stuff, isn't it? Having through the rest of the year. I mean, Gareth, are we doing Ford Thursdays again?
SPEAKER_04We've got definitely got Ford Thursdays in June, yeah. So there's that. And there's obviously the hope. Hope and September, isn't there? So I think that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_02We both raced last year, and it was, you know, for both of us, we're not racers, you know. Like that's not being competitive on a bike is actually something that just brings me a bit more stress. Uh, but we all coerced each other as friends into like joining Hope Women's Enduro, and you know, we rode it as kind of gaggles of friends together, and it was amazing. And maybe that's like the slight nervousness before as well, but the adrenaline and that feeling of fulfillment of all of us coming back down here and this whole place, this buzzing with women was yeah, it like genuinely filled my heart with a little bit of joy that day. So there are, you know, the women's takeover day. I think the guys have planned it really nicely to be at the start of the summer, and then we've got other things happening through the summer. The she rides very right over social rides in the summer, you know, into the Hope Women's Enduro in September. So hopefully we can start to just build that momentum that this is a place where there is things happening for ladies at all times of the year, and as Kate says, like create that breeding ground for those like organic connection moments to happen.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say though, that um obviously there are barriers for women riding, but do both of you have that story where you like I know I have, you met a man on the trail and he encouraged you down something or he cheered you on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because like I I want it to be like it's not just like women come in here going, Oh, the men are really terrifying. I have been out riding and I've been stuck at a feature and a random man comes down the trail and stops and goes, Would you like some help? And I go, Yeah, that'd be great.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think there's a lot of encouragement as well. Like girls, girls supporting girls is an amazing feeling, but I think allyship is so important. And you know, my husband tries to help me. He's probably struggles more than most people. I've probably listened to a lot of other people more than him. Um, sorry. Um But yeah, I think, you know, from my experience of working in the bike industry as well, actually some of the people moving that needle the most were men who were prepared to say, actually, this sucks. Like the way we're running this industry sucks. And I want to make something different. And actually, quite a few of them now live in the Forest of Dean. But yeah, like, you know, guys helping you down a trail, just telling you you're being ace. I've just come back from a boys riding holiday in Glentress. And weirdly, I actually find it easier to ride in a lethal than Golfie, which is a place that pushes me quite hard, with a bunch of blokes because they're so supportive. And like we don't talk each other out of stuff. They'll never tell me I can't do something, but they'll never tow me into something I shouldn't be doing. Um, and they just let me deal with myself on a trail, uh, and then are there to be like, Well no mate, that was ice. Next one, and carry on. And they I I think, yeah, there's some really great stuff here. And even the FOD Thursdays, I think it was last summer, I I did one of them because I wasn't around for many of them, and I was a bit nervous, a bit worried. Um, you know, it's all a bit free for form, isn't it? And I just turned around and it happened to be one of our local riders he races at a downhill World Cup level, and he was behind me, and I was like, Oh god, I'm really sorry. Um, and I said, Could you just give me a bit more space? Because I'm definitely slower than you, and he was amazing, and he was like, Yeah, of course, uh have a great one. Gave me a heap ton of space, let us get down there as a bunch of three girls ride in that stage, and just such respect on the trails. So, yeah, I think although we do operate in a pretty male-dominated sport still, there are really good men out there who want to see this change as well. So, yeah, I wouldn't want to generalize that all blokes on trails are bad.
SPEAKER_04No, and I think you know, going one of the things when we talked about, you know, we talked about the fodder's kids club earlier, and one of our kind of key goals with that very much was about giving parents some time back to be able to ride. Because I I'm sure you'll be able to allude to, you know, my personal experience as a parent was suddenly all your time disappears and you no longer have time to be able to ride a bike. And and likewise, you know, that must be, you know, it's not just a a male thing, it's for for both parts, isn't it? In terms of going, oh, actually, now, you know, you need to be able to book the time, as you talked about for the event, to be able to book the time to be able to do something. And actually, part of that was to be able to be able to book the time to be able to say, well, now my child can enjoy this, they'll be able to go off and do something, and I get some time to be able to ride. So I've got a you know, a two-hour slot to be able to go and ride my bike, um, which I know is going to be child-free. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's also worth mentioning though with little fodders. We actually started girls only classes. Yeah. Um, they only happen once a month at the moment, um, but they've been really well received and they're aimed at that 10 to 14 age group where they drop out of sport. And what's been really nice off the back of those little fodders girl sessions is how many of those girls are now riding outside of them together. Um, so that that's I think that's something really positive that we brought into Little Fodders. Not just here's some time for parents, but here's a space for girls, and parents, you get to ride again.
SPEAKER_04Win-win. Or riding time. Talk about the water. Or write coffee time if you prefer.
SPEAKER_02And you're always got the um the little fodders, you don't have to be a Ford resident, you know, as well. I know we talk about it as everything being Ford centric, but I've had friends come down from Yorkshire and have a holiday down here and you know, their daughter's done the summer camps. And so I think, you know, even if you can't have the privilege of living here, like I love living here. I don't all move here because I don't want to get too busy. Uh but you know, if you can't if you can't live in the Ford area, like you know, there are you can still come and enjoy it and be part of it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah, fantastic. Um, one of the kind of final things we wanted to kind of finish finish off with, we've got some quick fire uh questions for you right at the end. But what kind of piece of advice would you give to somebody looking to start out um in the sport for the first time? What would be your kind of like top tip? Laura, do you want to kiss off?
SPEAKER_02Uh I'll go a bit broader than just mountain biking and back to like my OS Maps hat and the outdoors, and I think it applies to both. But I think it's really easy to get caught up in buying the stuff, you know, buy the bike, buy the helmet, buy the kit, buy the waterproof, buy the backpack, buy the hiking boots, you know, like you can feel like you need more and more. But I actually think the biggest thing you can invest in is yourself. And if that's you know, do a course to learn how to read a map so that you have the confidence to go off on a footpath somewhere, if that's book a coaching session here, if that's come to the women's day, like invest a bit of your money and a bit of your effort in your skills to feel happier and safer in the outdoors. And obviously download OS Maps, especially if you have an accident ever riding a bike. Make sure you know how to locate yourself, use the locate me feature in there. If you're up on the hillside here and anything happens, or you find someone that something has happened to that Kate will attest to, it does happen to all of us. Like knowing how to be able to get help and get help to you. And yeah, OS Maps is free to download the locate me feature in there. We'll give you the grid reference that will be able to get Kate and the team up there to help you. So yeah, invest in yourself and make sure you know where you are.
SPEAKER_04Kate.
SPEAKER_00Um, I think probably, yeah, just kind of don't don't believe the media hype around handbiking believers.
SPEAKER_04The media have got a lot to answer for.
SPEAKER_00Well, as as you, you know, well pointed out, like it's okay to be average, like, and um that is what most of us are actually out here doing, is just kind of having a laugh, having a chat. I mean, you know, we're not all trying to be world champions. Some of us just like being out in the woods, and I think that's that's the important bit to remember. It's it's as much about the mountain biking as it is just being outside and just having that connection moment with nature. And I think the other big thing, like you already kind of picked up on, is coaching. I mean, I wish I knew that was a thing when I started because I reckon I'd be a lot better than I am now if I'd had some.
SPEAKER_04Well, it is a big thing of aspect, isn't it? Is that you look at so many other sports, and probably one of the first things you do, I always use golf as an example, I don't know why. But golf, like you wouldn't go and try and hit the golf balls without probably taking a golfing lesson. But we all think we can pick up a mountain bike and go ride a mountain mountain bike on trails um without any coaching. And actually, as you've touched on, it's probably the biggest thing can help you improve, you know, regardless of gender, it's actually you know, investing in yourself. It's massive, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00I think every everyone can everyone can always benefit from working on themselves. You said that's what happened when we're met.
SPEAKER_01I know, I know.
SPEAKER_04I start to feel yeah, that's a good thing. It's uh similar to when I listen to my wife with all her friends around in the mic, like just told me that. So quick fire questions to finish off. Okay, e-bike or analogue bike.
SPEAKER_02I'm all about the eve, but I've got a two and a half year old and I am maximising my time.
SPEAKER_04Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00Analogue all the way.
SPEAKER_02Analog all the way analog.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, honestly far too fair.
SPEAKER_00You're not I'm just very slow and I'm okay with that, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Um favourite trail in the philosopher?
SPEAKER_02Launch pad. Mine's gonna be old Bob's. Is it? Yeah, I absolutely love it. Yeah. So the whoops in the corners, as they're called in our house. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Favourite drink?
SPEAKER_00Now you're asking. Cup of tea, probably. Cup of tea. If I'm honest. Oh god.
SPEAKER_02I mean, actually, I'm quite partial to hot chocolate down here.
SPEAKER_04Thank you very much. And football or rugby.
SPEAKER_02Oh god, jeez, Gareth. Obviously, that's rugby.
SPEAKER_04Hey, we know football's band at Peddler Bikeway, by the way. So I should have waited till Kate's answer first.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, I mean I'd say I the only one I can stand to watch is rugby.
SPEAKER_02So the England girls will beat the Welsh girls.
SPEAKER_04I know, I know, I know, I know. I think it's uh that's a given, I think, um, having watched The Six Nations recently, um, England our cut above as much as it pains me to say it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I took we took our daughter to the England game up at Twickenham night two weeks ago, with 28 of us, uh, and watched 77,000 other people watching women's sport. And I'm like, what how ace is their life that they're growing up seeing this as normal now? And you know, there will be some little kids here on the 13th of June who will think that the 13th of June is just how trail centres and mountain biking are, and that is ace, and that's what we all need to be working towards.
SPEAKER_04Okay, there's a final quick fire question was the best female mountain bike role model. Kate, gone. Oh my lord.
SPEAKER_02I've got to say Tracy. Tracy Waisley. Should we just fangirl for a minute? Yeah, definitely. She's just curious, like she's done Eve, she's done X e-bike, she's done Psychocross, she's you know, she's raced at the best, she likes riding in the Malvern Hills.
SPEAKER_00She's just But she's so chill, so chill, so humble, and she's so nice. And like I the first time I actually met her was at the Enduro last year, and she kind of snuck up in the queue right behind me. And I was like, absolutely not, you go in front, please. Like, I'm not riding in front of you down this trail. And she was just like, she almost seemed taken aback that anybody would be like, yeah, still what's it? She was like, No, no, it's like cool, like I don't want to kind of thing. And we were all like, No, please, please. I don't need you chasing me, I don't need that stress.
SPEAKER_04And I think you forget sometimes, you know, eight, um, how long she's been in the sport, but also how many other female riders she's brought through because you look at like Hattie Harden, you look at Evie Richards, you know, the um the people on her on the team that have been supported by her that have come through then to be able to be future world champions. I know it's not all about that, but actually, you know, sometimes it's recognising what an impact she's had on the sport, and I think she's had a massive impact, hasn't she?
SPEAKER_02I think she um she cares more about the future of the sport than her place in it ever. And I think you know, she will leave behind a massive legacy in like mountain biking in general, but what she's done for kind of opening up women's sport is just yeah, amazing. We need to get her down here.
SPEAKER_04Well, we do. Well, she's here often enough.
SPEAKER_02She is, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Should we do a like a hint through the podcast? If you're listening, Tracy.
SPEAKER_04Big shout out, Tracy. We want you on the podcast. There we go. Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time today. It's been amazing having you uh and and you on and and shouting out.
SPEAKER_00So just reminders to finish off the women's takeover day is 13th of June, it's on the Saturday.
SPEAKER_04Fantastic. And how do they find out more information?
SPEAKER_00So um we'll have we've got the stuff set up on our website uh that link us through to an Eventbrite. So as things kind of progress and we get that programme set, it'll all be kind of posted and linked through that. Um and then yeah, just social media.
SPEAKER_04And finally, a big shout out to iOS Maps for supporting it. So thank you very much, Laura.
SPEAKER_02Alright, glad to be involved.
SPEAKER_04Brilliant. And uh yeah, like and subscribe, and hopefully we'll uh see you on the next podcast.